Doctor Who *spoilers*

[king mob]

The Next Doctor is out on DVD on the 19 January. It's supposed to be a fully loaded DVD and not a plain vanilla release.

[Toku King]

Yes, that was nice to see. Yet another nod to Paul McGann's tragically brief tenure as the Doctor, cruelly keeping live my no doubt fruitless hopes of seeing him appear in a multiple Doctor story some time in the future.

I actually didn't see McGann's picture. Was it in there?

[Toku King]

Ep didn't do much for me. Mercy should be a formidable villain but we see nothing showing why she's so generally pissed

I did wish for some more characterization, but to be honest, she didn't really need any. Why do a lot of people hate humanity? Because they can be total assholes. That's really all you need. The problem was that Ms. Hartigan was more interesting than RTD expected her to, causing some people to want more back-round.


the Cybershades don't do anything,

I was disappointed as well. They didn't even explain them(nothing further than that they had animal brains, at least)! I was hoping for them to be defected Cybermen that never finished the transformation, and are at constant war with Cybermen.


and it's another bloody huge-devastation-that-everyone-will-forget-in-five-seconds-so-WHO-CARES ending.

Maybe it's one of those things where the story slowly becomes a fable, and then later is forgotten by all.

And Morrisey's "Doctor", while well played, comes off as a bit of a con to get the episode extra attention.

Totally disagree. It was a great story, felt perfectly in place, and Morrisey nailed both the roles of Jackson Lake and the Doctor. If they ever want to retcon this for which he's truly the next Doctor, I sure as hell wouldn't complain.

And I'm getting really sick of Murray Gold.

I liked his music. It fit the overall tone of the episode for me.

[king mob]

I actually didn't see McGann's picture. Was it in there?

Yup, everyone was in there. Probably the first time Colin Baker & Sylvester McCoy have been on prime time telly since they actually played the Doctor.

[Charles RB]

Rosita was Morrissey's 'Doctor's' assistant, Mercy was the villian

...oh whoops. :frown:

and it's because she's pissed off at men that's her reason for being a bit of a cow. As pointed out by the women watching it last night: it's a tad anti-feminist if that's the only reason RTD could come up with to turn her into a baddie. It was fairly weak writing from RTD

Yeah. She never even had any scenes pre-funeral massacre with any blokes, even the ones who are supposed to piss her off to the point of slaughtering them. (And what was she doing before she met the Cybermen?) I wouldn't mind so much if other parts of the story weren't written as if we had been shown this, it's like there were scenes filmed that just got snipped.

Completely agree on this one. The general consensus was that we get it's a sad scene without having Gold's music blaring over the soundtrack.

Not to mention we can get the Doctor's excited, happy, etc... Make him stop!

A fun romp is fine but it's also one of the reasons the Christmas specials look shaky on a second or third viewing when the lager, gin and turkey have worn off.

Agreed - The Christmas Invasion was wobbly and less fun the second time I saw it. (Still better than Runaway Bride, of course)

[Dark_Master]

Finally managed to watch the episode (thank you YouTube) and yeah, it was good but it would have been better if they had spent at least a couple of minutes explaining Mercy's motivations and doing something usefull with the Cybershades
but why was there a Cyberman with his brain exposed? In the series 2 finale they all looked the same and that was part of their reasoning to make people belive that becoming Cybermen was something good, so changing that just for the sake of change is a bit odd

[ChrisIII]

The new Cyberleader seems to have components of the new series Cybercontroller (Lumic). All Cyberleaders also have black 'handle bars'. The all black faceplate might be a nod of sorts to Revenge of the Cybermen, in which the 'earmuffs' were colored black. (Or even to Attack of the Cybermen's all-black 'stealth' Cybermen)

[king mob]

Yeah. She never even had any scenes pre-funeral massacre with any blokes, even the ones who are supposed to piss her off to the point of slaughtering them. (And what was she doing before she met the Cybermen?) I wouldn't mind so much if other parts of the story weren't written as if we had been shown this, it's like there were scenes filmed that just got snipped.

On watching it again (far better than braving the Boxing Day sales) this afternoon, there is a suggestion that she was being forced into sex by some of those at the funeral. It's only a vague one but Miss Hartigan was still thinly written. Thankfully they cast Dervla Kirwan.


Agreed - The Christmas Invasion was wobbly and less fun the second time I saw it. (Still better than Runaway Bride, of course)

Runaway Bride fails on a first viewing let alone a second or third.

Viewing figures are in and it got 12 million people making it the second most viewed programme on Christmas Day after the new Wallace and Gromit film. Both programmes beat Eastenders & Corrie, which is no mean feat on Christmas Day.

[king mob]

The podcast for The Next Doctor (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/podcasts/doctorwho/) is worth a listen. It tells us that there's 4 specials starting tobe filmed next month, there's a two part finale for Tennant to be broadcast starting on Christmas Day 2009.

[Charles RB]

Gareth Roberts is doing the next special, that should be good.

On watching it again (far better than braving the Boxing Day sales) this afternoon, there is a suggestion that she was being forced into sex by some of those at the funeral.

And she has that "another man come to take my dignity in the night" line.

But that's far too easy to miss.

Runaway Bride fails on a first viewing let alone a second or third.

Runaway Bride fails in first minute.

[drwho]

I saw this episode and I was just pleased that the guy in there was not the new doctor. i did like the explanation of how he thought he was the doctor and the giant cyber droid was pretty cool.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I watched like 80% of the episode before Youtube suspended the guys account (he was uplinking the entire episode for everyone in parts so FUCK THEM) . I did like the explanation given to this other Doctor.

Good episode. I really like these episodes where theres really not so much to grasp to deal with. Maybe one day I'll get to see the final 20% of the episode.

[AlistairCrane]

So, what do you think? Planet of the Dead=Gallifrey?

[StoneGold]

Might have liked it better if I hadn't figured out the twist about the other Doctor pretty early on. I spent a good chunk of the mystery thinking "I figured it out ages ago, get on with it!"

[StoneGold]

So, what do you think? Planet of the Dead=Gallifrey?

Yeah, just like they introduced the new Doctor according to the title of this one.

[Cyke]

Oh, how could I forget to mention how much I love the new TARDIS: Tethered Aerial Release Developed In Style!

[AlistairCrane]

I liked how Rosita was like a combination of Rose and Martha. Also, it was neat how her presence and Morrissey's Doctor's relationship with her were used to point out how pre-Davies Doctors tended to be pretty damned sexist.

A pretty good special---not my fave, but pretty good! Still not sure I'll keep watching when Tennant and Davies leave though.

[king mob]

And she has that "another man come to take my dignity in the night" line.

But that's far too easy to miss.


It is, but I suppose you don't really want to be explaining sexual abuse to the kids on Christmas Day while watching Doctor Who.

[king mob]

I liked how Rosita was like a combination of Rose and Martha. Also, it was neat how her presence and Morrissey's Doctor's relationship with her were used to point out how pre-Davies Doctors tended to be pretty damned sexist.


There's a lot of very dubious sexual politics in nu-Who, The next Doctor is a good example of this.

A pretty good special---not my fave, but pretty good! Still not sure I'll keep watching when Tennant and Davies leave though.

Why on earth not?

[Toku King]

Still not sure I'll keep watching when Tennant and Davies leave though.

I'm sorry, but that is, like, narrow-mindedness to the max.

[AlistairCrane]

Why on earth not?

A) We don't know who the new Doctor is or how he'll compare to DT. If it's Patterson Joseph, count me right out!!

B) I don't like Steven Moffat and I don't think he'll be anywhere near a good showrunner as RTD. I also feel he'll change the tone of the show and try to invalidate everything from the RTD years.

[Cyke]

A) We don't know who the new Doctor is or how he'll compare to DT. If it's Patterson Joseph, count me right out!!

You realize that if most people adopted this attitude back when Hartnell left and Troughton joined, we probably wouldn't be talking about Doctor Who today. The show wouldn't have survived had viewers not given Troughton a chance. How can you predict anything if you don't give the guy a chance?

For that matter, I recall one heck of an angry outcry when it was announced that Barty Crouch Jr. would become the Doctor. Now people want him to stay forever. Go figure.

[AlistairCrane]

You realize that if most people adopted this attitude back when Hartnell left and Troughton joined, we probably wouldn't be talking about Doctor Who today. The show wouldn't have survived had viewers not given Troughton a chance. How can you predict anything if you don't give the guy a chance?



Why should I give him a chance? If you and others give him a chance, then it really doesn't matter if I do or don't.

[Charles RB]

I'm surprised that "he'll change the tone of the show" is supposed to be bad when every incoming EP has done that with Who.

[Cyke]

Why should I give him a chance? If you and others give him a chance, then it really doesn't matter if I do or don't.

Because then you'll know for sure whether or not he's worthy of being the Doctor. Going into, well, anything with pre-conceived notions is generally a bad thing, especially with a show that changes so often like Doctor Who. I'm not saying you MUST like him, but Doctor Who is a show that not only changes often, but thrives upon it and depends on it.

Again, I point to the sheer amount of people who dismissed David Tennant before the Christmas Invasion came out simply because he was a villain in a Harry Potter movie, then changed their minds after the Christmas movie. With your logic, not only would he have been the worst Doctor ever, but you never would've seen the fine work he did.

[Cyke]

I'm surprised that "he'll change the tone of the show" is supposed to be bad when every incoming EP has done that with Who.

For that matter, Steven Moffat's consistently written some of the most acclaimed episodes for each and every season thus far. The Empty Child/Doctor Dances, The Girl in the Fireplace, and Blink were all award winners. Judging from some of the interviews, I'd even go and say that Moffat has more encyclopedic knowledge about Doctor Who than RTD did, and that's not an easy thing to manage.

[AlistairCrane]

Keep in mind, Cyke, that I'm one person, not the whole. Also, it's not especially the change in Doctor that worries me--it's Moffat. I've never liked anything he's done with DW, and based on his library two-parter, this will likely continue.

[Cyke]

Keep in mind, Cyke, that I'm one person, not the whole. Also, it's not especially the change in Doctor that worries me--it's Moffat. I've never liked anything he's done with DW, and based on his library two-parter, this will likely continue.

Like I said, I'm not telling you to LIKE the changes, I'm just telling you to watch it and then judge. If you don't like it, then you're peachy. Can you imagine yourself getting shot down before you even put pen to paper? I'd hardly call that fair.

And what's wrong with The Doctor Dances, Girl in the Fireplace, and Blink? Those episodes are all award-winning episodes.

[Matt]

I recently watched Jekyll on DVD. A brilliant series and it was written by Moffat. If he can bring that level of writing excellence to Doctor Who and raise the average intelligence of episodes in the process then we've got nothing to worry about and a lot to look forward to.

[rick]

I recently watched Jekyll on DVD. A brilliant series and it was written by Moffat. If he can bring that level of writing excellence to Doctor Who and raise the average intelligence of episodes in the process then we've got nothing to worry about and a lot to look forward to.

I'm certainly not worrying about Moffat myself.

Both Blink and The Girl in the Fireplace were two of my favorites of the new series.

And I just saw Jekyll recently myself and thought it was rather good.

Anyone have any idea if there is going to be a season 2 with that one?

[rick]

Also, I'm not sure why anyone is hassling Alistair about not watching Who after they change Doctors.

Honestly, that's his loss, not ours.

[Toku King]

Finally saw "Partners In Crime". Very fun episode. A little too cartoony at times, but I really enjoyed it.
*Clicks 'Buy' on iTunes*

[Stony]

Keep it civil and stop sniping

[Matt]

And I just saw Jekyll recently myself and thought it was rather good.

Anyone have any idea if there is going to be a season 2 with that one?

I haven't heard any word about a second season but I do think they should leave it where they did.

Speaking of that, though it is getting off topic, I honestly didn't expect that ending and hadn't even pieced the clues together despite all of them being out in the open.

[Cyke]

Also, I'm not sure why anyone is hassling Alistair about not watching Who after they change Doctors.

Honestly, that's his loss, not ours.

Oh, it's the logical principle of it all!

[AlistairCrane]

After David Tennant, does the Doctor have only two incarnations left in his life cycle? I know there are twelve regenerations, but does that mean there are thirteen incarnations?

[Tadhg]

After David Tennant, does the Doctor have only two incarnations left in his life cycle? I know there are twelve regenerations, but does that mean there are thirteen incarnations?

Going by normal Time Lord life as described there would be a total of 13 Doctors through 12 regenerations. I suspect we may end up with more than 13 Doctors when all is said and done though.

[Captain Jim]

For that matter, Steven Moffat's consistently written some of the most acclaimed episodes for each and every season thus far. The Empty Child/Doctor Dances, The Girl in the Fireplace, and Blink were all award winners. Judging from some of the interviews, I'd even go and say that Moffat has more encyclopedic knowledge about Doctor Who than RTD did, and that's not an easy thing to manage.

Agreed. Moffat's stories have consistently been my favorites. I completely stopped worrying about things when I heard he was going to be the new showrunner.

[AlistairCrane]

Going by normal Time Lord life as described there would be a total of 13 Doctors through 12 regenerations. I suspect we may end up with more than 13 Doctors when all is said and done though.

So if they play their cards right, they could probably get another 15 years or so before they have to deal with the final death of the Doctor.

[AlistairCrane]

I don't know why everyone raves about Moffat episodes. They're nothing special (I'd go so far to call them crap). The only halfway decent one is Blink, and the Doctor and Martha are barely in that.

[Tadhg]

So if they play their cards right, they could probably get another 15 years or so before they have to deal with the final death of the Doctor.

Like I said, I suspect that we'll see more than 13 Doctors. So I think more than 15 years is possible. I wouldn't be surprised if the franchise outlives us all.

[AlistairCrane]

Like I said, I suspect that we'll see more than 13 Doctors. So I think more than 15 years is possible. I wouldn't be surprised if the franchise outlives us all.

I hope not. It would be stupid to have more than 13 Doctors after they've made a point about there being twelve regenerations/13 Doctors.

[Captain Jim]

Didn't the Master outlive his regenerations?

[Tadhg]

I hope not. It would be stupid to have more than 13 Doctors after they've made a point about there being twelve regenerations/13 Doctors.

The Master has already had 16.

[AlistairCrane]

The Master has already had 16.

But the Master is evil.

[Captain Jim]

But the Master is evil.

What difference does that make? :confused:

[Matt]

So if they play their cards right, they could probably get another 15 years or so before they have to deal with the final death of the Doctor.

There are so many, many ways they can overcome that regeneration cycle limit thing, it's not even funny. The High Council of Time Lords, as we've seen, can grant new regeneration cycles (The Five Doctors) and even supposedly resurrect dead Time Lords (The Master, as they supposedly did in the Time War though details are unknown).

The Doctor has also been exposed to so many incredibly powerful effects (including Time Lord technology that later Time Lords forbade themselves to ever make again and forgot about it) and crossed his own time line on such a frequent basis ... who knows what crazy effects that might have on him?

I don't know why everyone raves about Moffat episodes. They're nothing special (I'd go so far to call them crap). The only halfway decent one is Blink, and the Doctor and Martha are barely in that.

"That's just, like, your opinion, man."

And clearly a minority one. Regardless, he has a much more impressive writing record than RTD. For example: "Journey's End" ... what the bejeezus was that mess?

[Captain Jim]

Regardless, he has a much more impressive writing record than RTD. For example: "Journey's End" ... what the bejeezus was that mess?

Careful, Matt, Alistair loved that one. :biggrin:

[AlistairCrane]

What difference does that make? :confused:

Well, the Master is evil, so if the Doctor has the same amount of regenerations as the Master, that's suggesting there's a correlation between evilness and extra regenerations, thus making the Doctor evil to an extent.

[AlistairCrane]

And clearly a minority one. Regardless, he has a much more impressive writing record than RTD. For example: "Journey's End" ... what the bejeezus was that mess?

Mess? That's my favourite episode you're insulting.

[Captain Jim]

Well, the Master is evil, so if the Doctor has the same amount of regenerations as the Master, that's suggesting there's a correlation between evilness and extra regenerations, thus making the Doctor evil to an extent.

I fail to see the logic in that, but I'm not going to argue about it.

[Matt]

Well, the Master is evil, so if the Doctor has the same amount of regenerations as the Master, that's suggesting there's a correlation between evilness and extra regenerations, thus making the Doctor evil to an extent.

Your logic seems very faulty in this rather odd line of reasoning.

By that exact same sort of logic, there's a correlation between being rich and wearing suits. Or to use a more classical example: All elephants are grey, mice are grey therefore mice are elephants.

[AlistairCrane]

Your logic seems very faulty in this rather odd line of reasoning.

By that exact same sort of logic, there's a correlation between being rich and wearing suits. Or to use a more classical example: All elephants are grey, mice are grey therefore mice are elephants.

Well, if you watch Journey Back to Oz, there is a mice/elephants correlation.

[Donald M.]

Mess? That's my favourite episode you're insulting.

I suppose every episode is someone's favorite, but Journey's End is still a mess. For me it was the most disappointing anti-climax of all the new series season endings so far.

Glad you liked it though, care to go into a bit of detail on why it's your favorite? I'm genuinely curious.

[Matt]

Mess? That's my favourite episode you're insulting.

I stand by my opinion; it was a mess from pretty much any objective standpoint you care to take.

Characters were introduced/included for no apparent reason other than to have them appear.
Dialogue was weak and cliched.
The Doctor behaved like an idiot (though the 10th does seem to have that as a recurring problem).
The Shadow Proclamation was about as effective and useful as a dead cat in a washing machine, who knows why they even made an appearance...
The Reality Bomb was a dud, previous Dalek level technology has been seen to be much more effective.
Davros' science was simply wrong and he needs to go back to low level high school (what force is it that combines matter again?)
Rose was included just to make the 'shippers happy, inducing moments which simply dragged on for far too long and made little to no sense.
The Doctor, aside from being the afore mentioned idiot, decided to take a deep trip into Hypocrisy country ... condemning his clone for doing pretty much the same thing he happily did himself in the past on numerous occasions.
The entire plot dilemma was solved with meaningless technobabble that star trek would have been embarrassed to have in it's script.
Said technobabble also relied on the Daleks being complete and utter idiots, to the point of having a "Dalek killing console" conveniently situated within easy reach of where they hold prisoners. Oh, and Davros ... who, you know, has a track record of killing Daleks when he feels like it.

Shall I continue?

It was, I repeat, a complete mess of a story that needed to go back for some serious re-writing/editing.

[Donald M.]

Well, the Master is evil, so if the Doctor has the same amount of regenerations as the Master, that's suggesting there's a correlation between evilness and extra regenerations, thus making the Doctor evil to an extent.

To my knowledge, while the Doctor has fudged his regenerations a couple of times to get one or two more than he should have, he's never up and stolen someone else's body or stolen regenerations from another Time Lord, both of which are things the Master has done to extend his life, so your logic here doesn't really hold up.

There's been much more solid and compelling evidence that the Doctor has the capacity for evil within him.

[Matt]

Well, if you watch Journey Back to Oz, there is a mice/elephants correlation.

And that story has a basis in logic where exactly?

[Matt]

There's been much more solid and compelling evidence that the Doctor has the capacity for evil within him.

Just some quick examples:

Acts of genocide, numerous occasions (usually performed by the 7th Doctor, who was a deliciously devious sod).

Coming very close to smashing in the Master's head with a rock (Survival) before realising what he was doing/what was happening.

And, of course, the Valeyard.

One of the things about the Doctor is that while he is (in the narrative) a tremendous force for good ... if he ever did switch proverbial sides, it would mean terrible days for the Universe. Even more so without the Time Lords watching over his shoulder or anyone of his intellect to hinder his plans (like he hindered the plans of the Master and the Rani on a constant basis).

[LordEd1976]

There's been much more solid and compelling evidence that the Doctor has the capacity for evil within him.

one word.

Valeyard

[AlistairCrane]

I suppose every episode is someone's favorite, but Journey's End is still a mess. For me it was the most disappointing anti-climax of all the new series season endings so far.

Glad you liked it though, care to go into a bit of detail on why it's your favorite? I'm genuinely curious.

As a Rose fan, I was thrilled that she got her happy ending with the Doctor. There's a huge romantic payoff at the end---she gets to be with *her* proper Doctor, one who's part-human and will age normally and not regenerate. It's fun because you can envision them working for UNIT or Torchwood in Pete's World and having exciting adventures and so on, while at the same time allowing the regular Doctor to continue on with his journeys because he can't really settle down. Plus, it adds a lot of pathos to the main Doctor that he can't enjoy the same sort of love/romantic relationship that his half-human self can. The entire scene at Bad Wolf Bay is awesome because it goes back to Doomsday and "resolves" the ending of that episode without undoing it.

And because I like Rose, it was fun to see Jackie and Mickey again---especially Jackie, who's become an asskicker and much more compassionate than before.

With Martha, we get to see the full extent of her militarization that has been shown throughout the season and on Torchwood. She peaks when she threatens to use the Osterhagen Key, and this is an important character moment because she realizes just how much she's changed from how she was with the Doctor. The suggestion that she quits UNIT at the end is important because it shows she's taking the Doctor's compassion to heart and moving away from the "soldier" she was becoming with UNIT.

Sarah Jane was just fun--I haven't seen the Sarah Jane Adventures but if I had, the scene with her special necklace would've had a bigger payoff.

I love Torchwood, so the Gwen/Ianto stuff was fun, and Jack always brings a lot of fun to the episode. His being unable to die is used really well, like when he's zapped by the Daleks.

The scene at the end with everyone working the TARDIS to bring Earth back to its proper place was also fun. I love the idea of all the Doctor's most important companions coming together to save the universe.

Even Donna, who I hated, was pretty cool in this episode, and her ending was almost tragic in a way (and tragedy is always a good dramatic form--see Romeo and Juliet).

I don't know what else to add...Essentially, everything over the past four years paid off in a big way. I loved it because it felt like a love letter from RTD, a thank you to the fans who have enjoyed and supported the past four seasons with so much enthusiasm.

[AlistairCrane]

I stand by my opinion; it was a mess from pretty much any objective standpoint you care to take.

Characters were introduced/included for no apparent reason other than to have them appear.
Dialogue was weak and cliched.
The Doctor behaved like an idiot (though the 10th does seem to have that as a recurring problem).
The Shadow Proclamation was about as effective and useful as a dead cat in a washing machine, who knows why they even made an appearance...
The Reality Bomb was a dud, previous Dalek level technology has been seen to be much more effective.
Davros' science was simply wrong and he needs to go back to low level high school (what force is it that combines matter again?)
Rose was included just to make the 'shippers happy, inducing moments which simply dragged on for far too long and made little to no sense.
The Doctor, aside from being the afore mentioned idiot, decided to take a deep trip into Hypocrisy country ... condemning his clone for doing pretty much the same thing he happily did himself in the past on numerous occasions.
The entire plot dilemma was solved with meaningless technobabble that star trek would have been embarrassed to have in it's script.
Said technobabble also relied on the Daleks being complete and utter idiots, to the point of having a "Dalek killing console" conveniently situated within easy reach of where they hold prisoners. Oh, and Davros ... who, you know, has a track record of killing Daleks when he feels like it.

Shall I continue?

It was, I repeat, a complete mess of a story that needed to go back for some serious re-writing/editing.

That doesn't alter my enjoyment of it. I'll still love it no matter what!! There's no point in arguing with me or debating it because I'm not budging on this issue--I'll never change my mind. I love Journey's End!!

[Tadhg]

That doesn't alter my enjoyment of it. I'll still love it no matter what!! There's no point in arguing with me or debating it because I'm not budging on this issue--I'll never change my mind. I love Journey's End!!

He wasn't trying to change your mind. He called it a mess, you questioned it, he explained. I'm pretty sure he doesn't care how you feel about the episode.

[AlistairCrane]

He wasn't trying to change your mind. He called it a mess, you questioned it, he explained. I'm pretty sure he doesn't care how you feel about the episode.

I don't care how he feels about it, either...someone else asked me to explain why I loved it so much, so I did.

[Donald M.]

As a Rose fan, I was thrilled that she got her happy ending with the Doctor.

*snip*

So basically, you enjoyed all the fanwankery and are happy to ignore everything else, none of which made much sense.

I like Rose myself, but was happy enough with how she left and had neither need nor desire to see her again.

[Tadhg]

I don't care how he feels about it, either...someone else asked me to explain why I loved it so much, so I did.

Oookay. I didn't say anything about your explanation. I was replying to your post saying he shouldn't argue with you. He wasn't.

[AlistairCrane]

So basically, you enjoyed all the fanwankery and are happy to ignore everything else, none of which made much sense.

I like Rose myself, but was happy enough with how she left and had neither need nor desire to see her again.

I love Rose, and I wasn't satisfied with her ending. It was horrible that she was exiled in an alternate universe without the Doctor. So it was very important to me that the Doctor's best companion of the past four seasons return and provide redemption for that Doomsday ending.

Also, I find the term "fanwankery" extremely demeaning. Pleasing fans isn't a bad thing, you know.

[Donald M.]

I don't care how he feels about it, either...someone else asked me to explain why I loved it so much, so I did.

What does that have to do with you saying Matt's summation of the episode won't change your mind about it?

He wasn't responding to your explanation for liking the episode, which is a separate thread of the conversation, but to you saying Matt can't change your mind, which he obviously wasn't trying to do.

[AlistairCrane]

Oookay. I didn't say anything about your explanation. I was replying to your post saying he shouldn't argue with you. He wasn't.

But his post was directed at me.

[Matt]

I have a hypothesis I would like to put forth for comment.

I have commented a few times that in the new series, the Doctor has often acted like an idiot. Not just eccentric or odd like previous incarnations ... but an actual idiot. He certainly does need seem as smart/clever as a lot of his previous selves He's certainly not up to the 7th's standards, All of them pretty much seem more capable technically (I mean with technology) than the 10th.

The 10th (and the 9th, for that matter) seems to be relying a lot more on blind luck to get him out of problems - whereas previous Doctors have always had some plan in the back of their minds to handle any given situation.

But why?

I think I know why such a thing is necessary.

They've simply had to dumb the Doctor down because there's simply no one left who can match his intellect in the setting. The Master and the Doctor used to clash all the time (such clashes were at their best in the DeGaldo Master days, when he had style) and to a lesser extent with the Rani. Omega even used to pop up now and then and sometimes even had an advantage over the Doctor (The Three Doctors), which made for some excellent stories.

But all those villains are gone from the setting. Who is left that is actually an intellectual equal of the Doctor of old? Davros? Meh. He's been a sad joke ever since Destiny of the Daleks.

Was the removal of the Time Lords good for the sake of story telling? I honestly don't know but I do think it's had the unfortunate effect of removing some of the greatest obstacles the Doctor had: Villains like the Master and the Time Lords constantly interfering in the Doctor's life/affairs.

[AlistairCrane]

What does that have to do with you saying Matt's summation of the episode won't change your mind about it?

He wasn't responding to your explanation for liking the episode, which is a separate thread of the conversation, but to you saying Matt can't change your mind, which he obviously wasn't trying to do.

Yes, but I reject and dismiss his summation of events because I find it insulting to my interpretation of the episode.

[Donald M.]

I love Rose, and I wasn't satisfied with her ending. It was horrible that she was exiled in an alternate universe without the Doctor. So it was very important to me that the Doctor's best companion of the past four seasons return and provide redemption for that Doomsday ending.


Let's just hope this ending sticks.

She was okay, but all the suggestions that she's "special" compared to other companions and that Doctor loves her as he's loved no other companion is pure and utter nonsense.

There've been much better companions who've had much better chemistry with their incarnations of the Doctor, Ace and Sarah Jane to give the two best examples.

[AlistairCrane]

Let's just hope this ending sticks.

She was okay, but all the suggestions that she's "special" compared to other companions and that Doctor loves her as he's loved no other companion is pure and utter nonsense.

There've been much better companions who've had much better chemistry with their incarnations of the Doctor, Ace and Sarah Jane to give the two best examples.

But those don't count. The only old companion that's had anything to do with the new series is Sarah Jane. While this series does follow the original one, the focus of this series is on this series' creations. Frankly, we can completely ignore the classic series and still enjoy the new series just fine. That's what I do.

[Matt]

Yes, but I reject and dismiss his summation of events because I find it insulting to my interpretation of the episode.

This is going to sound rude but ... I don't care if you find it insulting or not. It's completely irrelevant.

It seems obvious you like soppy pay-offs in your TV watching habits while ignoring common sense and normal writing conventions. That's fine, you're welcome to your opinion.

However, rejecting a sound criticism of something just because you find it insulting is silly to say the least. Unless you are able to objectively look at and counter said criticisms, then they stand and Journey's End is left thought of as the narrative mess that it is.

[Donald M.]

Yes, but I reject and dismiss his summation of events because I find it insulting to my interpretation of the episode.

Because his summation looks at the actual quality of the episode and the story it tells and finds it justly lacking, whereas your summation says, "Screw all that, they piled in every character I like and Rose and the Doctor can be together! Gleeeeeeee!"

Both interpretations are valid in their own way, doesn't change the fact that me and others find your interpretation obnoxious and silly.

Journey's End was bad Who hiding behind a ton of heavy handed fanservice. It was basically everything bad about New Who distilled into a single episode.

I'm not trying to change your mind and it's good that you enjoyed the episode, nothing wrong with enjoying something, but as you disagree with Matt, I disagree with you.

[AlistairCrane]

This is going to sound rude but ... I don't care if you find it insulting or not. It's completely irrelevant.

It seems obvious you like soppy pay-offs in your TV watching habits while ignoring common sense and normal writing conventions. That's fine, you're welcome to your opinion.

However, rejecting a sound criticism of something just because you find it insulting is silly to say the least. Unless you are able to objectively look at and counter said criticisms, then they stand and Journey's End is left thought of as the narrative mess that it is.

You're entitled to interpret the episode however you wish. But I disagree with you--therefore, your criticisms have no bearing in my life. I enjoyed it and that's all that matters to me. I'm not trying to be insulting, it's just that I don't care about contrary opinions.

[AlistairCrane]

Because his summation looks at the actual quality of the episode and the story it tells and finds it justly lacking, whereas your summation says, "Screw all that, they piled in every character I like and Rose and the Doctor can be together! Gleeeeeeee!"

Both interpretations are valid in their own way, doesn't change the fact that me and others find your interpretation obnoxious and silly.

Journey's End was bad Who hiding behind a ton of heavy handed fanservice. It was basically everything bad about New Who distilled into a single episode.

I'm not trying to change your mind and it's good that you enjoyed the episode, nothing wrong with enjoying something, but as you disagree with Matt, I disagree with you.

Go ahead and disagree, however I think people who didn't like it are a bit silly.

Frankly, there seems to be a bit of a war between Old Fans and New Fans, and as a New Fan, I often feel picked on by Old Fans. The New Series is designed to be friendly to New Viewers, so as long as each season from 2005 to the present is consistent, there's no real point in comparing it to the way the Old Series used to be.

[Donald M.]

But those don't count.

Why, because you say they don't?

[AlistairCrane]

Why, because you say they don't?

Yes; after all, didn't we just have a debate a few pages ago on how the fans get to decide what's canon and what's not? As far as I'm concerned, nothing that happened before 2005 really matters.

[Matt]

You're entitled to interpret the episode however you wish. But I disagree with you--therefore, your criticisms have no bearing in my life. I enjoyed it and that's all that matters to me. I'm not trying to be insulting, it's just that I don't care about contrary opinions.

Just out of a weird sense of curiosity ... are you a fundamentalist christian by any chance? Believe in the Earth being only 6,000 years old?

Go ahead and disagree, however I think people who didn't like it are a bit silly.

Why?
It seems to me that plenty of rather sound reasons for NOT liking it have been listed. Plot holes, bad characterisation, why RTD is a lazy writer, etc.

Frankly, there seems to be a bit of a war between Old Fans and New Fans, and as a New Fan, I often feel picked on by Old Fans. The New Series is designed to be friendly to New Viewers, so as long as each season from 2005 to the present is consistent, there's no real point in comparing it to the way the Old Series used to be.

Who previously compared the old series to the new series in this specific topic, pray tell?

Do I like the new series? Certainly. Have certain episodes been outstanding? Certainly. Blink, The End of the World, The Library two-parter, Satan Pit two parter, and more ... all quite good television.

But the new series has had it's utter duds/failures of episodes; Fear Her, Rose, Journey's End, Daleks in Manhatten and others ... have ranged from simply bad to "how the hell did this ever get by the script editors?".

[Donald M.]

Go ahead and disagree, however I think people who didn't like it are a bit silly.


Well, thanks for your permission to disagree.

I would point out that I think people who liked Journey's End are a bit silly, but I've made that clear already . . .


Oops!



Frankly, there seems to be a bit of a war between Old Fans and New Fans, and as a New Fan, I often feel picked on by Old Fans. The New Series is designed to be friendly to New Viewers, so as long as each season from 2005 to the present is consistent, there's no real point in comparing it to the way the Old Series used to be.

Talk about silly. The old show was full of dodgy writing and silliness of the good kind and the not so good kind.

Matt's interpretation has nothing to do with comparing Old Who to New Who and everything to do with holding New Who, on its own terms, up to the standards of what constitutes good quality television. Who shouldn't get a pass on being bad because it's Who, doesn't mean you can't enjoy it anyway.

As for me, it just isn't possible to completely divorce New Who from Old in my mind. One is a continuation of the other. When New Who tries to tell us Rose is special, I can't turn off my mind, ignore the earlier series and not say to myself, "The hell she is!"

Rose is an okay companion, but she's not all the new series makes her out to be and you ignoring the old series doesn't change that.

[thehod]

Yes; after all, didn't we just have a debate a few pages ago on how the fans get to decide what's canon and what's not? As far as I'm concerned, nothing that happened before 2005 really matters.

Isn't that a bit like saying that you've loved Spiderman since Brand New Day, so everything before then doesn't count... which it doesn't....

Joe. Is that you?

[Donald M.]

But the new series has had it's utter duds/failures of episodes; Fear Her, Rose, Journey's End, Daleks in Manhatten and others ... have ranged from simply bad to "how the hell did this ever get by the script editors?".

Hell, throughout its decades long history Who has been a bit crap most of the time and the fans love it anyway. It's great television, but it's rarely good television.

[Matt]

Rose is an okay companion, but she's not all the new series makes her out to be and you ignoring the old series doesn't change that.

I agree, though I would actually place Rose as being a less than average companion when compared to previous ones.

Her behaviour in some stories, such as the Werewolf one, bordered on being outright wrong. She seemed far more concerned with getting the Queen to say "We are not amused" than actually caring about the people that were being killed via the liberal application of an angry werewolf.

She didn't bring any real chemistry to the show, at least not to the levels as we saw between Sarah Jane/Tom Baker, Ace/McCoy ... heck, even Jamie/Troughton worked better on-screen.

The character didn't bring anything special to the TARDIS either. She started off as a nobody and pretty much ended up that way as well. Character growth was minimal, sadly. Her skill set was next to useless; she wasn't good with explosives, wasn't an investigative journalist, wasn't a savage warrior, time traveller or anything of the sort. While past companions have been in a similar situation (Victoria springs to mind), they at least grew as characters. Rose, when you break the character down, could be summed up from beginning to end as "I want to bone the Doctor" and that's really about it.

[AlistairCrane]

Rose is an okay companion, but she's not all the new series makes her out to be and you ignoring the old series doesn't change that.

In your opinion of course. There is no "fact" that states whether or not she's a terrible, poor, okay, good, great, or excellent companion. Just because you say the opposite of me doesn't mean your opinion is "more right" than mine.

[AlistairCrane]

Also, I would really like to put Matt on my ignore list for bashing my faves (and, in turn, me) but I can't because he's a mod, so it appears I will be leaving this thread until the Easter special. It's just full of a bunch of haters.

[Matt]

In your opinion of course. There is no "fact" that states whether or not she's a terrible, poor, okay, good, great, or excellent companion. Just because you say the opposite of me doesn't mean your opinion is "more right" than mine.

It does if they bring sound arguments and reasoning to the table.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I loved the X-Mas special and finally....finally saw it all on Youtube. It was a great show and really touching. You get a sense that for now The Doctor will fly solo til the series returns in 2010 and new episodes start.

I also loved that this new Cybermen conversion and hope that we see more of it. I mean this new updated version of the Cybermen with Mercy leading them would make quite a villain for The Doctor. She/it can claim that The Doctor sentenced them to an alien world in the darkness and she has lost her mind .

Then theres the homage to the past. And thats where I started watching Who at . The past shows on Youtube from an un-Earthly Child to where the 2nd Doctor has his 1st run in with the Cybermen all those years ago.

[AlistairCrane]

It does if they bring sound arguments and reasoning to the table.

If it makes sense in my head, that's fine with me! If someone doesn't believe me even though it makes sense to me, oh well! It makes sense to me and that's all that matters to me.

[Matt]

Hell, throughout its decades long history Who has been a bit crap most of the time and the fans love it anyway. It's great television, but it's rarely good television.

Oh, I completely agree.

Some Old Who was terrible rubbish (Later Tom Baker, most Colin Baker, Early McCoy) which was definitely cringe inducing. But some of it was really rather good and those stories made the whole thing worth while...

[Matt]

Also, I would really like to put Matt on my ignore list for bashing my faves (and, in turn, me) but I can't because he's a mod, so it appears I will be leaving this thread until the Easter special. It's just full of a bunch of haters.

So you put people on your ignore list because they happen to disagree with you?
That, I think, indicates a lot.

If it makes sense in my head, that's fine with me! If someone doesn't believe me even though it makes sense to me, oh well! It makes sense to me and that's all that matters to me.

I have to ask again ... are you, by any chance, a fundamentalist follower of a religion?

[AlistairCrane]

So you put people on your ignore list because they happen to disagree with you?
That, I think, indicates a lot.



I have to ask again ... are you, by any chance, a fundamentalist follower of a religion?

Absolutely not. I'm agnostic and I think organized religion is a crock.

I'm simply not interested in opinions that fundamentally disagree with me because I am personally offended by them. It's better to ignore than fight.

[Matt]

Absolutely not. I'm agnostic and I think organized religion is a crock.

Thankyou.
I thought otherwise; your apparent habit of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "Lalalalala! I can't hear you!" had me confused.

[AlistairCrane]

When you say you don't like Journey's End, that personally offends me because it's something that I love. By attacking it, you're essentially attacking me.

[Donald M.]

In your opinion of course. There is no "fact" that states whether or not she's a terrible, poor, okay, good, great, or excellent companion. Just because you say the opposite of me doesn't mean your opinion is "more right" than mine.

Well, I suppose if you ignore the original series (as you do) with the existence of previous companions who were better written, better acted, had actual character growth, had actual skills useful to a time traveling adventurer and had actual chemistry with the Doctor, then yes, there are no facts to back up my opinion.

Why can't people disagree without someone assuming the other person is say they're right or their opinion is better? We're having a conversation here. Sure it's bordering on being an outright argument, but the fact that no one's opinion (when it is pure opinion) is better than anyone elses should be taken as a given and not trotted out every time someone disagrees with us.

[Donald M.]

Also, I would really like to put Matt on my ignore list for bashing my faves (and, in turn, me) but I can't because he's a mod, so it appears I will be leaving this thread until the Easter special. It's just full of a bunch of haters.

What a tragedy.

This thread is full of lovers. Doctor Who lovers. We just don't love the same episodes you do, which seems to be your big and indeed only point of contention here.

[thehod]

Also, I would really like to put Matt on my ignore list for bashing my faves (and, in turn, me) but I can't because he's a mod, so it appears I will be leaving this thread until the Easter special. It's just full of a bunch of haters.

Exceedingly mature of you.

You know what, I liked Journey's End as well. I know it was the mother of all fanwank, but I still enjoyed it. the thing is, I'm not blind to its faults either. Everything that Matt said was absolutly true, it desperatly needed some rewriting and editiing. Still, for all its faults I enjoyed it, but then have a soft spot for fanwank.

That's the key here Alistair. No-one will have a go at you if you state your enjoyment of something, but don't try to claim something is good, when it so obviously has flaws.

[AlistairCrane]

What a tragedy.

This thread is full of lovers. Doctor Who lovers. We just don't love the same episodes you do, which seems to be your big and indeed only point of contention here.

Which is why I'd be better off discussing it with people who actually respect my opinion and agree with me. We aren't "having a conversation"--we're reaching a roadblock because I simply am not interested in what you're saying.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I agree, though I would actually place Rose as being a less than average companion when compared to previous ones.

Her behaviour in some stories, such as the Werewolf one, bordered on being outright wrong. She seemed far more concerned with getting the Queen to say "We are not amused" than actually caring about the people that were being killed via the liberal application of an angry werewolf.

She didn't bring any real chemistry to the show, at least not to the levels as we saw between Sarah Jane/Tom Baker, Ace/McCoy ... heck, even Jamie/Troughton worked better on-screen.

The character didn't bring anything special to the TARDIS either. She started off as a nobody and pretty much ended up that way as well. Character growth was minimal, sadly. Her skill set was next to useless; she wasn't good with explosives, wasn't an investigative journalist, wasn't a savage warrior, time traveller or anything of the sort. While past companions have been in a similar situation (Victoria springs to mind), they at least grew as characters. Rose, when you break the character down, could be summed up from beginning to end as "I want to bone the Doctor" and that's really about it.

I watched up til the Werewolf episode that created the spinoff show (Torchwood !) and even I agree it was kinda ...too much Rose. But I suppose that was the thing...every companion always left the Doctor or he left them to their own lives. And I suppose this was a way to say...ok in Journey's End we'll make The Doctor in a way "get the girl" and not make it the real Doctor.

Because as he explained , this clone of him was human . He would age and get old. And he had 1 heart. So they gave that bone to those fans who wanted the "love story" for the Doctor.

Me... I just want fun sci-fi . Even the black & white shows are fun sci-fi at times. I loved the Troughton series that I can watch . He remains my favorite Doctor with his weird facial reactions to being scared.

Also, I would really like to put Matt on my ignore list for bashing my faves (and, in turn, me) but I can't because he's a mod, so it appears I will be leaving this thread until the Easter special. It's just full of a bunch of haters.

So you put people on your ignore list because they happen to disagree with you?
That, I think, indicates a lot.
?

He ignores people for mocking Britney Spears....whats that tell you. :tongue:

[AlistairCrane]

Exceedingly mature of you.

You know what, I liked Journey's End as well. I know it was the mother of all fanwank, but I still enjoyed it. the thing is, I'm not blind to its faults either. Everything that Matt said was absolutly true, it desperatly needed some rewriting and editiing. Still, for all its faults I enjoyed it, but then have a soft spot for fanwank.

That's the key here Alistair. No-one will have a go at you if you state your enjoyment of something, but don't try to claim something is good, when it so obviously has flaws.

If it had flaws, I certainly didn't notice them. I enjoyed it, and that's all that matters to me! I am simply annoyed that other people don't feel the same way.

[AlistairCrane]

Now, not to bring up another fandom, but I think this comparison sticks:

Joss Whedon made a filthy mistake by breaking up Buffy and Angel and keeping them apart (forever). RTD at least had the decency to "pay off" the Rose/Doctor fans (in a way that even allowed the haters to be satisfied) instead of torturing us like Whedon.

[Donald M.]

When you say you don't like Journey's End, that personally offends me because it's something that I love. By attacking it, you're essentially attacking me.

That's the problem right there.

You're quick enough to assert your right to disagree with us, but when we disagree with you it's a terrible insult.

The fact you equate someone not liking an episode of television that you enjoyed to a personal attack says more about you than I think you really want to reveal.

[Donald M.]

If it had flaws, I certainly didn't notice them. I enjoyed it, and that's all that matters to me! I am simply annoyed that other people don't feel the same way.

Awww, poor baby.

Seriously, how are we meant to respond to statements like this?

[AlistairCrane]

Now Donald, I believe you are truly crossing the line into personal insults with that "poor baby" line.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

If it had flaws, I certainly didn't notice them. I enjoyed it, and that's all that matters to me! I am simply annoyed that other people don't feel the same way.

Journey's End was like the Sinestro Corp's War in Green Lantern. It had too many characters involved. Hell when Jack Harkness showed up and the people of Torchwood besides the companions I was like.... damn thats an awful lot of players in this.

And well some claim they love the Sinestro Corps War....but me....nope. I have always detested the tons of extra characters thrown in. Because it read like a mess. Imagine watching it unfold on TV.

[thehod]

If it had flaws, I certainly didn't notice them. I enjoyed it, and that's all that matters to me! I am simply annoyed that other people don't feel the same way.

Why?

Why must everyone agree with you?

I have friends of over 25 years standing, and we still have arguements over which is the better space fighter, the X-wing or Colonial Viper. (two things, a) its clearly the X-wing, and b) geeks have the best arguements!)

The fun is in the debate. Attacking the episode is not an attack on you, however much you insist that it is. You liked it, thats fine. Others didn't, that's fine too.

Don't make it personal, dude.

[Donald M.]

Now, not to bring up another fandom, but I think this comparison sticks:

Joss Whedon made a filthy mistake by breaking up Buffy and Angel and keeping them apart (forever). RTD at least had the decency to "pay off" the Rose/Doctor fans (in a way that even allowed the haters to be satisfied) instead of torturing us like Whedon.

No, Joss Whedon did what made sense, what had to happen to allow both characters to grow and develop rather than stagnate in a hopeless dead-end relationship.

Then other people took over Angel and Cordelia became St. Cordelia and suddenly she and Angel were in love and then Connor happened and it was all pretty retch-worthy.

[Matt]

When you say you don't like Journey's End, that personally offends me because it's something that I love. By attacking it, you're essentially attacking me.

Absurd.

I may like Generation One Transformers cartoons (and I do) but even I can readily recognise that the writing in most of the episodes was shallow and poor to say the least. Why? Because from an objective and critical viewpoint, that's the only real choice you've got.

People can say they prefer Beast Wars, Beast Machines, the new animated series or whatever. I honestly don't care because it's their opinion. If you're taking personal offence that someone is critically examining something that you like ... well, you need to toughen up a bit and learn there's a huge distinction between a work of fiction and your own person.

Which is why I'd be better off discussing it with people who actually respect my opinion and agree with me. We aren't "having a conversation"--we're reaching a roadblock because I simply am not interested in what you're saying.

I suggest you change your philosophy. No man can grow as a person unless he listens to and entertains the opinions of others, even if he doesn't agree with them. You stay in your own sheltered little opinion world, you simply will never grow or learn much at all.

[noh-varr]

I don't know why everyone raves about Moffat episodes. They're nothing special (I'd go so far to call them crap). The only halfway decent one is Blink, and the Doctor and Martha are barely in that.

For me those are some of the best episodes of the new Doctor Who. The Doctor Dances was actually the first episode of new Who I watched. Girl in the Fireplace was one of the few episodes of series two that was worth anything and really showed how great he could be (and really is) as the Doctor, but it helped that it was well written.
What I really like about the episodes he's written so far is they make new villains and work great for both kids and adults. Which is really the point since it is a kid/family show. I also can't wait to see Moffat write an episode that isn't as eerie, Coupling was amazingly funny and Jekyl has some great humor too. The range on his writing is phenomenal.
But it's just my opinion and will remain mine, just as yours is just as valid.

[thehod]

Joss Whedon made a filthy mistake by breaking up Buffy and Angel and keeping them apart (forever). RTD at least had the decency to "pay off" the Rose/Doctor fans (in a way that even allowed the haters to be satisfied) instead of torturing us like Whedon.

You're just a sucker for a happy ending, aren't you?

[AlistairCrane]

Why?

Why must everyone agree with you?

I have friends of over 25 years standing, and we still have arguements over which is the better space fighter, the X-wing or Colonial Viper. (two things, a) its clearly the X-wing, and b) geeks have the best arguements!)

The fun is in the debate. Attacking the episode is not an attack on you, however much you insist that it is. You liked it, thats fine. Others didn't, that's fine too.

Don't make it personal, dude.

It's all personal to me. It's like everyone is picking at me for liking something. Meanwhile, I think everyone is deluded for not liking it. I like it, so I am of course right. And the fact that they don't puzzles me, because I know that it's good and they should agree too.

[AlistairCrane]

You're just a sucker for a happy ending, aren't you?

Yes. That is why I continue to read the B/A comics, hoping for that eventual pay off, even though it may be years down the line. At least before the comics, I imagined my own happy ending.

[AlistairCrane]

No, Joss Whedon did what made sense, what had to happen to allow both characters to grow and develop rather than stagnate in a hopeless dead-end relationship.

Then other people took over Angel and Cordelia became St. Cordelia and suddenly she and Angel were in love and then Connor happened and it was all pretty retch-worthy.

Cordelia was Angel's second soulmate after Buffy, but this sounds like a discussion for another thread. But I will say their relationship is not "dead end": Angel will Shanshu, and then he and Buffy can be together. Just like the Doctor became half human. Now he and Rose can be together.

[Matt]

Hell when Jack Harkness showed up and the people of Torchwood besides the companions I was like.... damn thats an awful lot of players in this.

Which was another fault of the story, come to think on it. The number of characters involved meant that some of them spent two episodes heroically trapped in their own HQ sitting on their hands heroically doing nothing.

Which is a problem that the Who writers encountered in the Davison days; having three companions was just too many. The solution was simply to have one go back or stay in the TARDIS on some minor matter on a lot of occasions.

And I liked the Sinestro Corps War; the number of characters in it wasn't a big of problem because of the different medium it was produced in and the fact that the characters was highlighted in different titles; Hal and Co in Green Lantern, Kilowog and Friends in Green Lantern Corps.

[AlistairCrane]

For me those are some of the best episodes of the new Doctor Who. The Doctor Dances was actually the first episode of new Who I watched. Girl in the Fireplace was one of the few episodes of series two that was worth anything and really showed how great he could be (and really is) as the Doctor, but it helped that it was well written.
What I really like about the episodes he's written so far is they make new villains and work great for both kids and adults. Which is really the point since it is a kid/family show. I also can't wait to see Moffat write an episode that isn't as eerie, Coupling was amazingly funny and Jekyl has some great humor too. The range on his writing is phenomenal.
But it's just my opinion and will remain mine, just as yours is just as valid.

The Girl in the Fireplace was horrid because it attempted to take a real historical figure and make her likeable even though she's historically known as Louis' whore. That didn't sit well with me, especially when she tried to sink her claws into the Doctor.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Cordelia was Angel's second soulmate after Buffy, but this sounds like a discussion for another thread. But I will say their relationship is not "dead end": Angel will Shanshu, and then he and Buffy can be together. Just like the Doctor became half human. Now he and Rose can be together.

Its not the Doctor ...its a human clone of him that is with Rose. The real Doctor is still out there. Traveling thru time and the universe. He'll never know real sexual love. Sure he knows friendship and love of that kind. But he's a being beyond it now.

[Donald M.]

Now Donald, I believe you are truly crossing the line into personal insults with that "poor baby" line.

You're the one making it personal by suggesting that we're insulting you by disagreeing with you.

Yours is an immature attitude, plain and simple. Is that an insult? Then it's an insult. One you've earned.

[thehod]

It's all personal to me. It's like everyone is picking at me for liking something. Meanwhile, I think everyone is deluded for not liking it. I like it, so I am of course right. And the fact that they don't puzzles me, because I know that it's good and they should agree too.

Alistair, man, you need to grow up.

To state that you like it, therefore you are right is the height of arrogance.

At this point I'm thinking that you've yet to reach your teens, because if you go out into the world with that attitude, someone is going to knock your block off.

[Matt]

It's all personal to me. It's like everyone is picking at me for liking something. Meanwhile, I think everyone is deluded for not liking it. I like it, so I am of course right. And the fact that they don't puzzles me, because I know that it's good and they should agree too.

Disagreeing with you is not 'picking on you' by any definition of the term.

If a cop comes along and gives you a speeding ticket and you dispute it, he is not picking on you. If I say your tie is ugly when it's green and purple polka dots and you think it's nice, then no one is picking on you.

Someone in this thread has noted that you seem to have a rather immature attitude, expecting everyone to agree with you and claiming persecution when they fail to do so. I would have to agree with that assessment at this time.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

And I liked the Sinestro Corps War; the number of characters in it wasn't a big of problem because of the different medium it was produced in and the fact that the characters was highlighted in different titles; Hal and Co in Green Lantern, Kilowog and Friends in Green Lantern Corps.

My main problem was the villains. There was just a jumble load of villains in this . Sure I can handle the Corps and all. I'm a Kyle Rayner fan. But Johns just did shoddy writing . My problems ...

1.) Kyle Rayner suddenly gets enslaved by Parallax after years of hearing how he knows fear !

2.) Too many villains. Cyborg Superman , Emo-Boy Prime , The Anti-Moniter , and the Manhunters . Am I forgetting anyone ?

That was my main problem with it. I hope the next big GL arc isn't having a hundred villains show up.

[AlistairCrane]

Everyone can think what they want about me, but only I can be right about me. As for me, I'm off to bed. Good night!!

[Donald M.]

The Girl in the Fireplace was horrid because it attempted to take a real historical figure and make her likeable even though she's historically known as Louis' whore. That didn't sit well with me, especially when she tried to sink her claws into the Doctor.

Yes, how dare the episode try to depict her as a real, complex person rather a two dimensional reflection of her historical legacy. How terrible.

[Matt]

Yes, how dare the episode try to depict her as a real, complex person rather a two dimensional reflection of her historical legacy. How terrible.

I can't wait for a Cleopatra story where all she does is shag Roman leaders and they never show the rest of the aspects of her character! (HBO's Rome only had Cleopatra in about four episodes for any length of time and even they showed more character than that).

[thehod]

The Girl in the Fireplace was horrid because it attempted to take a real historical figure and make her likeable even though she's historically known as Louis' whore. That didn't sit well with me, especially when she tried to sink her claws into the Doctor.

You clearly have no understanding of history.

Jeanne-Antoinette Poisson was Louis XV official mistress, and the only reason she was disliked by the rest of the French aristocracy was because she came from a lower social class, not because she happened to be his mistress. Indeed in 18th century France, the King was expected to take a mistress.

Anyone calling her a whore would find themselves without a head quicksmart.

[Matt]

Everyone can think what they want about me, but only I can be right about me.

Logically, a false/bad line of reasoning.

There are people out there that think they're Jesus, Napoleon or Elvis (sometimes all three at once) and they hold that conviction with utter zealotry and absolute steadfastness.

It does not, however, mean they are correct.

[rick]

And to change the tone, here's a nice pic of Victoria...

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/5110/victoriafk4.jpg

One of the cuter companions out there, don't you think?

[thehod]

Logically, a false/bad line of reasoning.

There are people out there that think they're Jesus, Napoleon or Elvis (sometimes all three at once) and they hold that conviction with utter zealotry and absolute steadfastness.

It does not, however, mean they are correct.

I am firmly of the opinion that 1+1=5. It is with this opinion that I intend to approach my employer and tell him my last paycheck was incorrect.

Its my opinion, so it must be right.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

And to change the tone, here's a nice pic of Victoria...

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/5110/victoriafk4.jpg

One of the cuter companions out there, don't you think?

If I was a male companion I'd be hittin on her. What mission , Doctor ? Can't I stay on the Tardis and look at her awhile ? :tongue:

[Matt]

And to change the tone, here's a nice pic of Victoria...

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/5110/victoriafk4.jpg

One of the cuter companions out there, don't you think?

Yep. A good companion as well, it's rare that the "they come from a relatively backwards time zone and therefore don't understand a lot" theme is used with Who companions - they tend to come from much more recent eras.

A pity that a lot of the Victoria stories aren't around any more and are lost.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I am firmly of the opinion that 1+1=5. It is with this opinion that I intend to approach my employer and tell him my last paycheck was incorrect.

Its my opinion, so it must be right.

Will you ignore anyone who disagrees with you ? I mean slap em on ignore for daring to disagree there ? :wink:

[thehod]

I'm gonna come right out and state my wish for the next companion...

http://www.careymulligan.co.uk/careymulligan.jpg

[noh-varr]

You clearly have no understanding of history.

Jeanne-Antoinette Poisson was Louis XV official mistress, and the only reason she was disliked by the rest of the French aristocracy was because she came from a lower social class, not because she happened to be his mistress. Indeed in 18th century France, the King was expected to take a mistress.

Anyone calling her a whore would find themselves without a head quicksmart.

If I remember correctly this is even discussed in the episode, at least her role as mistress and how it was a respectful position in France at the time.

And she wasn't "sinking her hooks" into the doctor, she was in love with him and the two of them had great chemistry on screen. Which really made her death resonate well at the end.

Let me add that as another reason I enjoy Mofatt's episodes, I care about the characters that are introduced in the course of the story. If anything happens to them I give a damn, better then some episodes where I shrug when the guest star dies.

[rick]

Yep. A good companion as well, it's rare that the "they come from a relatively backwards time zone and therefore don't understand a lot" theme is used with Who companions - they tend to come from much more recent eras.

A pity that a lot of the Victoria stories aren't around any more and are lost.


I've only seen her in two stories, but I rather enjoyed her interaction with both the Doctor and Jamie.

They were a good team.

[thehod]

Will you ignore anyone who disagrees with you ? I mean slap em on ignore for daring to disagree there ? :wink:

Ignore them?

No, I'll sthcweem and sthcween until I’m sthick!

[Donald M.]

I'm gonna come right out and state my wish for the next companion...

http://www.careymulligan.co.uk/careymulligan.jpg

Cute.

I wouldn't mind a long term male companion for a change this series, or really any companion that falls out of the "cute young thing" mold even a little.

It's well past time show had a non-human companion who doesn't look human and isn't a robot dog. He travels all throughout time and space, why not spend some time traveling with a weird looking alien and have be a source of some friction in his travels through Earth history?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Also, what is it with generation emo that it can't listen to criticism without whining "don't be a hater!" Exactly what is supposed to be wrong with hating something crap?

And Matt's right: Journey's End was crap.

Clint Eastwood is right Generation Pussy !:tongue:

Actually this is the 2nd person on CBR who in a post I've been a part of claim he was gonna start ignoring "Haterz" . The 2nd one is gonna ignore them for saying Reginald Hudlin sucks and can't run a network. :tongue:

[Matt]

I'm gonna come right out and state my wish for the next companion...

http://www.careymulligan.co.uk/careymulligan.jpg

I agree and support this opinion.

[noh-varr]

I'm gonna come right out and state my wish for the next companion...

http://www.careymulligan.co.uk/careymulligan.jpg

I'd love to see her as the next companion. Or at least another appearance, though she did have a great ending at the end. She had the adventure and instead of wanting to see where the Doctor went next, she chose to stay and have a real life. Hell if feel like not messing with the character, get the actress. Though I would kind of like to see a male companion in new Who, that isn't Captain Jack (though I would take Jack as written by the Doctor Who people over Torchwood's writers in a second).

[rick]

I'm gonna come right out and state my wish for the next companion...

http://www.careymulligan.co.uk/careymulligan.jpg


She would be an excellent choice.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I'm gonna come right out and state my wish for the next companion...

http://www.careymulligan.co.uk/careymulligan.jpg

Nice... what does or has she starred in ?

I'd like to see them go with someone from the past like the 1980's. Like some young guy who is all about business and making deals. He never lives til he meets the Doctor and soon he grows into realizing there is life out there beyond being rich and successful.

[Matt]

I wouldn't mind a long term male companion for a change this series, or really any companion that falls out of the "cute young thing" mold even a little.

Male companions don't tend to work that well. The most successful, being out of the norm, was the Brigadier and then probably Jamie.

Ian ... worked well at the start but only because they needed him for the action stuff.
Ben ... forgettable.
Harry Sullivan... didn't work all that well, sadly.
Turlough ... meh.
Adric ... Haha, possibly the worst companion ever in the series, though it is a close tussle with Mel for that title.

What I would like to see is the next Doctor being a bit older and a bit smarter with less manic behaviour. Definitely no more companions (male or female) who just want to shag the Doctor, that's shtick is woefully overdone at this point.

[rick]

The formula has pretty much been the Doctor and a cute girl since the mid-70's and I doubt that's going to change anytime soon.

[Matt]

Nice... what does or has she starred in ?

She was Sally Sparrow in the episode Blink.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Male companions don't tend to work that well. The most successful, being out of the norm, was the Brigadier and then probably Jamie.

Ian ... worked well at the start but only because they needed him for the action stuff.
Ben ... forgettable.
Harry Sullivan... didn't work all that well, sadly.
Turlough ... meh.
Adric ... Haha, possibly the worst companion ever in the series, though it is a close tussle with Mel for that title.

What I would like to see is the next Doctor being a bit older and a bit smarter with less manic behaviour. Definitely no more companions (male or female) who just want to shag the Doctor, that's shtick is woefully overdone at this point.

I'd like to see a Doctor in his 40's at this point and a completely different potrail than what Tennant has done. I'd like to see a Doctor be like Troughton with more facial reactions and some fear at times. :wink:

[Donald M.]

Male companions don't tend to work that well. The most successful, being out of the norm, was the Brigadier and then probably Jamie.

Ian ... worked well at the start but only because they needed him for the action stuff.
Ben ... forgettable.
Harry Sullivan... didn't work all that well, sadly.
Turlough ... meh.
Adric ... Haha, possibly the worst companion ever in the series, though it is a close tussle with Mel for that title.

What I would like to see is the next Doctor being a bit older and a bit smarter with less manic behaviour. Definitely no more companions (male or female) who just want to shag the Doctor, that's shtick is woefully overdone at this point.

Sure, but just because male companions haven't worked in the past doesn't mean a male companion couldn't work in the future. I wouldn't mind at least seeing them try.

[Matt]

The formula has pretty much been the Doctor and a cute girl since the mid-70's and I doubt that's going to change anytime soon.

If nothing else, the 'cute girl' part of the formula keeps the Dads watching the show. Apparently when Leela left, the BBC got a lot of letters from such viewers noting that they'd miss the athletic companion in the leathers.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

She was Sally Sparrow in the episode Blink.

Ahhh I'll check that out....thanks. I'm going thru watching episodes off Youtube. I wish they'd have more older 1970's shows on there. Like to see the 4th Doctor .

[rick]

If nothing else, the 'cute girl' part of the formula keeps the Dads watching the show. Apparently when Leela left, the BBC got a lot of letters from such viewers noting that they'd miss the athletic companion in the leathers.


I admit to having a crush on Ace once upon a time. :smile:

[Matt]

I admit to having a crush on Ace once upon a time. :smile:

There's a rather hilarious out take on the Ghost Light DVD where McCoy cops a feel on Sophie Aldred (all in good humour, of course).

[Donald M.]

If nothing else, the 'cute girl' part of the formula keeps the Dads watching the show. Apparently when Leela left, the BBC got a lot of letters from such viewers noting that they'd miss the athletic companion in the leathers.

Sure, I get that. My wanting to see a male companion is just me trying to psychically influence the creators into making the story in my head happen, the one where he has a male companion who comes to resent the Doctor, is manipulated into killing him by one of the Doctor's old enemies, forces the Doctor to (seemingly) kill him and returns as a major recurring villain.

Every geek has their stories they'd like to see. I just thank god I'm not geek enough to write fan fic. Jesus but those lot are sad.

[thehod]

What I would like to see is the next Doctor being a bit older and a bit smarter with less manic behaviour. Definitely no more companions (male or female) who just want to shag the Doctor, that's shtick is woefully overdone at this point.

I'd like to see a Doctor in his 40's at this point and a completely different potrail than what Tennant has done. I'd like to see a Doctor be like Troughton with more facial reactions and some fear at times. :wink:

When the Comic Rack girls interviewed Paul Cornell he said he'd liked to see someone like Ray Stevenson (Titus Pullo in Rome) as the Doctor. Someone physically imposing who didn't want to use his size and strength.

[Donald M.]

When the Comic Rack girls interviewed Paul Cornell he said he'd liked to see someone like Ray Stevenson (Titus Pullo in Rome) as the Doctor. Someone physically imposing who didn't want to use his size and strength.

That would be great. There could be a running theme throughout his tenure where he keeps trying to think his way out of situations, but in the end it always comes down to him having to lift a heavy rock or something.

[Matt]

When the Comic Rack girls interviewed Paul Cornell he said he'd liked to see someone like Ray Stevenson (Titus Pullo in Rome) as the Doctor. Someone physically imposing who didn't want to use his size and strength.

Maybe he could be the 12th Doctor and when his time ends, he could yell out "13!" >_>

[Donald M.]

Speaking of Rome, Kevin McKidd could make a good Doctor as well.

If he'd never starred in House, it would have been great to see Hugh Laurie play the Doctor with Greg House's personality and attitude towards problem solving.

[Matt]

Speaking of Rome, Kevin McKidd could make a good Doctor as well.

If he'd never starred in House, it would have been great to see Hugh Laurie play the Doctor with Greg House's personality and attitude towards problem solving.

I agree on both counts.

I also like the idea of the guy who played Caesar in Rome, just imagine him glaring at some evil villain: As well as Jon Pertwee's son (whose name escapes me what now. Sean?).

James Nesbitt as well, as a bit of an obvious choice. His performance in Jekyll (which Moffat wrote) was extraordinary.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Part of me wants to see a William Hartnell type to have that heart of gold , hidden beneath that type of bluster and sarcastic type mood. With the current way the Doctor feels towards companions leaving him , it would fit. He could claim he doesn't need someone but this girl won't leave him alone allowing him to accept someone helping him.

[noh-varr]

Blasted lag

[noh-varr]

Made me keep reposting : /

[noh-varr]

I thought it was all but confirmed that Paterson Joseph was going to be the next Doctor. Nesbitt would be nice, but he says it would be "career suicide to follow Tenant". I'd love to see Nighy step in, he was the first choice for the 9th doctor after all, and Moffat did say he would like to see an older doctor.

Hell I'd be happy with any of those three. I think Joseph has a better chance at making it his own though. Nighy will just be Nighy playing the doctor, and Nesbitt would make a fantastic Who villain imo, make him the next Master or other evil Time Lord if Simm doesn't return. Joseph can play the whacky character and be serious in a sci-fi setting (see Jekyll, Survivors, or Neverwhere). He also kind of lacks a big defining role that he is always seen as, so he can be just the Doctor for the audience.

[Dark_Master]

James Nesbitt as well, as a bit of an obvious choice. His performance in Jekyll (which Moffat wrote) was extraordinary.
I completely agree (Jekyll is one of the best mini series I've seen in quite some time... though the ending kinda sucked) but I think he would make a better Master
Too bad he said he would take the role even if it were offered

[king mob]

Again, I point to the sheer amount of people who dismissed David Tennant before the Christmas Invasion came out simply because he was a villain in a Harry Potter movie, then changed their minds after the Christmas movie. With your logic, not only would he have been the worst Doctor ever, but you never would've seen the fine work he did.

That may have been the case with American fans but Tennant was known over here for a number of parts & had just starred in RTD's excellent version of Casanova for the BBC. Tennant was seen by the majority of people here as being a great choice, and although his portrayal was a bit iffy in his first series, he's settled into the role perfectly.

[Toku King]

Too bad he said he would take the role even if it were offered

How's that too bad? Isn't that good? I love to see him in "Doctor Who".

[king mob]

And clearly a minority one. Regardless, he has a much more impressive writing record than RTD. For example: "Journey's End" ... what the bejeezus was that mess?

Journey's End was a mess but RTD's record outside of Who is superior to Moffat's, and RTD is still, for all his flaws on Who, a very good writer and along with Paul Abbot, the best dramatist to have worked on British telly over the last decade.

Jeykll was patchy, with a poor final two episodes and it really ended up being a case of a nice idea spun out with a poor ending. Coupling was ok but was mainly naff, while Press Gang was great, that was a long time ago. Moffatt has much to prove & being the producer as well as head writer is a lot to take on, whether he's able to do it is still up in the air, but on the basis of his Who episodes I hope he does a good job.

[Charles RB]

Characters were introduced/included for no apparent reason other than to have them appear.

Including Davros, thinking about it - if he hadn't been in the episode, would we have noticed? He's not doing anything the Daleks can't do, he's only there so they can go "look, Davros is back!" and sell Davros toys.

I keep getting that with some of RTD's eps, in fact - the feeling that he's throwing things in to gain attention and provide build-up, but with no pay-off in mind.

The entire plot dilemma was solved with meaningless technobabble that star trek would have been embarrassed to have in it's script.
Said technobabble also relied on the Daleks being complete and utter idiots, to the point of having a "Dalek killing console" conveniently situated within easy reach of where they hold prisoners. Oh, and Davros ... who, you know, has a track record of killing Daleks when he feels like it.

Oh god don't remind me about that. :frown: Two episodes of making the Daleks out as unbeatable and that's how they're beaten?

all the suggestions that she's "special" compared to other companions and that Doctor loves her as he's loved no other companion is pure and utter nonsense.

I loathed that. It doesn't stand up, especially when one of his companions was his own granddaughter - I'd be surprised if Rose is more special and beloved than the Doctor's own flesh and blood.

[king mob]

I have a hypothesis I would like to put forth for comment.

I have commented a few times that in the new series, the Doctor has often acted like an idiot. Not just eccentric or odd like previous incarnations ... but an actual idiot. He certainly does need seem as smart/clever as a lot of his previous selves He's certainly not up to the 7th's standards, All of them pretty much seem more capable technically (I mean with technology) than the 10th.

The 10th (and the 9th, for that matter) seems to be relying a lot more on blind luck to get him out of problems - whereas previous Doctors have always had some plan in the back of their minds to handle any given situation.

The 9th Doctor was scarred by war, in effect he was shellshocked and stumbled into victories with the help of Rose who returned some sense of normality to him. 10 is different as 10 has been really badly written at times with the sonic screwdriver becoming far too easy a device to get the Doctor out of a scrap.

10 still has his schemes and plans but when 10 is written well, the whole bumbling idiot persona works well. Sadly with some scripts it just seems like 10 is a bloody idiot.


They've simply had to dumb the Doctor down because there's simply no one left who can match his intellect in the setting. The Master and the Doctor used to clash all the time (such clashes were at their best in the DeGaldo Master days, when he had style) and to a lesser extent with the Rani. Omega even used to pop up now and then and sometimes even had an advantage over the Doctor (The Three Doctors), which made for some excellent stories.

But all those villains are gone from the setting. Who is left that is actually an intellectual equal of the Doctor of old? Davros? Meh. He's been a sad joke ever since Destiny of the Daleks.

Was the removal of the Time Lords good for the sake of story telling? I honestly don't know but I do think it's had the unfortunate effect of removing some of the greatest obstacles the Doctor had: Villains like the Master and the Time Lords constantly interfering in the Doctor's life/affairs.

Nice point and certainly RTD blew the return of Davros and reduced him to being a silly little joke along with the Daleks, which is a pity as for the first three series of Nu Who RTD had managed to return the Daleks to being the proper villians of old.

I'd like to see a new set of villians who are the Doctor's equals, even something like the Master. It'd be nice for the programme to build up it's own set of recurring villians that aren't the Slitheen.

[king mob]

Frankly, there seems to be a bit of a war between Old Fans and New Fans, and as a New Fan, I often feel picked on by Old Fans. The New Series is designed to be friendly to New Viewers, so as long as each season from 2005 to the present is consistent, there's no real point in comparing it to the way the Old Series used to be.


I've heard this a lot and while it's certainly true to an extent, it does go both ways, an hour or so looking through the forums on OG will testify to that.

[king mob]

Hell, throughout its decades long history Who has been a bit crap most of the time and the fans love it anyway. It's great television, but it's rarely good television.

It's a good quality kids/family programme that when it was good, it was great telly and an essential part of the BBC's schedules. It possibly did outlive it's welcome but I'm glad it's back in it's rightful place.

[Charles RB]

The Girl in the Fireplace was horrid because it attempted to take a real historical figure and make her likeable even though she's historically known as Louis' whore. That didn't sit well with me, especially when she tried to sink her claws into the Doctor.

Yes, how dare the episode try to depict her as a real, complex person rather a two dimensional reflection of her historical legacy. How terrible.

Yeah, I'm bewildered here.

Also disturbed, since the implication is "she was a whore so she can't have been a nice person!".

And to change the tone, here's a nice pic of Victoria...

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/5110/victoriafk4.jpg

One of the cuter companions out there, don't you think?

I concur, and am pissed off most of her stories no longer exist outside of audios.

If nothing else, the 'cute girl' part of the formula keeps the Dads watching the show. Apparently when Leela left, the BBC got a lot of letters from such viewers noting that they'd miss the athletic companion in the leathers.

Romana's wearing a school uniform in City Of Death as Lalla Ward thought it would cheer up young girls who had to wear them. "I got loads and loads of letters from little girls saying 'I don't mind wearing my school uniform anymore'. I didn't bank on the fact that also I'd get loads of letters from their fathers saying, 'Cor! School uniform!' "

the sonic screwdriver becoming far too easy a device to get the Doctor out of a scrap.

Quick, bring back the Terileptils!

[king mob]

I agree, though I would actually place Rose as being a less than average companion when compared to previous ones.

Her behaviour in some stories, such as the Werewolf one, bordered on being outright wrong. She seemed far more concerned with getting the Queen to say "We are not amused" than actually caring about the people that were being killed via the liberal application of an angry werewolf.

She didn't bring any real chemistry to the show, at least not to the levels as we saw between Sarah Jane/Tom Baker, Ace/McCoy ... heck, even Jamie/Troughton worked better on-screen.

The character didn't bring anything special to the TARDIS either. She started off as a nobody and pretty much ended up that way as well. Character growth was minimal, sadly. Her skill set was next to useless; she wasn't good with explosives, wasn't an investigative journalist, wasn't a savage warrior, time traveller or anything of the sort. While past companions have been in a similar situation (Victoria springs to mind), they at least grew as characters. Rose, when you break the character down, could be summed up from beginning to end as "I want to bone the Doctor" and that's really about it.


That's a tad unfair. Rose was a great way to introduce new viewers to a programme that most of it's target audience probably had never seen before. Rose was a normal person for a reason: making the companion something exotic would have alienated new viewers and turned Who into just another Sci fi programme. Rose, with the soap opera element that her familiy brought with her, made the show more down to earth.
So if someone was used to watching Eastenders, they could identify with Rose and access the more fantastical nature through her reactions. Basically forget about the classic companions, they wouldn't have worked, Rose was a perfect companion in the new series. Sadly they ballsed up her departure in Doomsday in Journey's End, but we've covered that.

[king mob]

Male companions don't tend to work that well. The most successful, being out of the norm, was the Brigadier and then probably Jamie.

Ian ... worked well at the start but only because they needed him for the action stuff.
Ben ... forgettable.
Harry Sullivan... didn't work all that well, sadly.
Turlough ... meh.
Adric ... Haha, possibly the worst companion ever in the series, though it is a close tussle with Mel for that title.


Ian Chesterton was a great companion, possibly one of the best ever as he was a perfect foil for Hartnell. I agree on the rest though.

[king mob]

James Nesbitt as well, as a bit of an obvious choice. His performance in Jekyll (which Moffat wrote) was extraordinary.

Good lord no. Nesbitt is great at playing James Nesbitt.

I'm confused at the amount of fanlove for Jekyll, it really was nothing more than average Saturday night BBC One drama that fell apart at the end.

[king mob]

I thought it was all but confirmed that Paterson Joseph was going to be the next Doctor. Nesbitt would be nice, but he says it would be "career suicide to follow Tenant". I'd love to see Nighy step in, he was the first choice for the 9th doctor after all, and Moffat did say he would like to see an older doctor.

Hell I'd be happy with any of those three. I think Joseph has a better chance at making it his own though. Nighy will just be Nighy playing the doctor, and Nesbitt would make a fantastic Who villain imo, make him the next Master or other evil Time Lord if Simm doesn't return. Joseph can play the whacky character and be serious in a sci-fi setting (see Jekyll, Survivors, or Neverwhere). He also kind of lacks a big defining role that he is always seen as, so he can be just the Doctor for the audience.

Joseph's biggest role so far is Johnson from Peep Show, though he's now turning up in loads of stuff of variable quality. The remake of Survivors being his latest and that's just a dreary load of pointless rubbish.

I'd prefer Jospeh over Nighy, as although Nighy is an excellent actor it'd be Bill Nighy. Also the BBC clearly want an actor no older than 50 and that rules Nighy out.

[king mob]

Romana's wearing a school uniform in City Of Death as Lalla Ward thought it would cheer up young girls who had to wear them. "I got loads and loads of letters from little girls saying 'I don't mind wearing my school uniform anymore'. I didn't bank on the fact that also I'd get loads of letters from their fathers saying, 'Cor! School uniform!' "


There's a good reason why that story is the highest rated in the history of the classic series.

[Toku King]

So, what are your favorite Doctor Who villains/monsters of the new series, excluding any classics such as the Master and the Daleks?

Mine are(in no order):

Nanotech Zombies - Terrifying opponents that are some of the most inventive and original enemies in Doctor Who history.

Mr. Finch/The Krillitanes - Loved them to bits. Very badass and truly threatening foes with a good pinch of classic villainy thrown in for good measure. One of my favorite Doctor Who villains of all time.

Clockwork Robots - A mix of Cybermen and the Robots of Death, the Clockwork Robots are extremely cool. You gotta love the design, an their goal is very disturbing yet imaginative.

The Ood - Ok, they're not villains, but come on! I love the Ood! They're like Cthulhu-looking puppies! And when they go evil? Very scary.

The Beast - A villain that makes the Daemons look like Bozo the clown. The big draw to this character is the big question of "What is he? If the Daemons are aliens, what the hell s this creature?" A monster of possibly no weakness, the Beast may or may not be one of the Doctor's most powerful foes.

Sycorax - What can I say? I love the classic brutal invaders.

Judoon - Once again, they're not exactly villains, but they're not good either. There's just something appealing about this rhino-headed brutes that is unique, and are some of my all-time favorite Doctor Who monsters.

Weeping Angels - Without a doubt the only Doctor Who monsters to ever scare me, and one of the downright most original.

[Cyke]

That may have been the case with American fans but Tennant was known over here for a number of parts & had just starred in RTD's excellent version of Casanova for the BBC. Tennant was seen by the majority of people here as being a great choice, and although his portrayal was a bit iffy in his first series, he's settled into the role perfectly.

Yes, it was American fans, most of whom never saw Tennant in anything, who were in an uproar about Barty Crouch Jr.

[rick]

Good lord no. Nesbitt is great at playing James Nesbitt.

I'm confused at the amount of fanlove for Jekyll, it really was nothing more than average Saturday night BBC One drama that fell apart at the end.


What's to be confused over?

Jekyll was well written, well acted, had engaging characters and an excellent ending.

I mean no disrespect, but I can't help but notice that you don't really seem to like very much of anything.

You seem to think that most Doctor Who episodes suck, you don't seem to like much else either, so I'm wondering what it is exactly that you do enjoy?

[IamtheRock3]

just saw it, it was pretty good. Nice actor in it to. He actully could of fit as a new doctor, which help the show

interesting to see that doctor gets kind of hurt when he constanly loses companions

I mean he went through 3 in a short time. Man just cant keep em. More if you counted a death of one, and the two guys (Although in fairness he LEFT Jack)

[AlistairCrane]

That's a tad unfair. Rose was a great way to introduce new viewers to a programme that most of it's target audience probably had never seen before. Rose was a normal person for a reason: making the companion something exotic would have alienated new viewers and turned Who into just another Sci fi programme. Rose, with the soap opera element that her familiy brought with her, made the show more down to earth.
So if someone was used to watching Eastenders, they could identify with Rose and access the more fantastical nature through her reactions. Basically forget about the classic companions, they wouldn't have worked, Rose was a perfect companion in the new series. Sadly they ballsed up her departure in Doomsday in Journey's End, but we've covered that.

No, they fixed it. At least in JE Rose got to hear what the Doctor said, but we still didn't. However, it's fairly obvious he said "I love you".

And one look at my avatar tells you where I stand on that issue. :wink:

But I totally agree with the rest of what you said about Rose. I connect with the human characters, not the exotic, alien Doctor. When I heard about the new series, I knew I'd try it out, but when I found out Billie Friggin' Piper was the companion, that sealed the deal. I loved her music when I was a kid.

Also, almost all of the pages in this forum are blank because I have so many people on ignore. It makes for a quick read!

[Dark_Master]

How's that too bad? Isn't that good? I love to see him in "Doctor Who".rats, I meant to write it's bad that he wouldn't accept the job if it were offered xP

The remake of Survivors being his latest and that's just a dreary load of pointless rubbish.I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks that. I tried watching the first few episodes and it was the most boring show I can remember watching. A total waste of a good premise

[king mob]

I mean no disrespect, but I can't help but notice that you don't really seem to like very much of anything.

You seem to think that most Doctor Who episodes suck, you don't seem to like much else either, so I'm wondering what it is exactly that you do enjoy?


I enjoy Who & you've probably ignored me gushing over the Christmas special & all the other stuff I've praised in order to make this point Rick. I like Nu Who, but it's flawed & sometimes those flaws make the programme a mess to watch.

I want it to realise the potential and consistancy that it deserves with the talent involved. We have enough mediocre shite on British telly as it is without Who jumping into that particular pit, if we want mediocre shite then that's what Torchwood's for.

[king mob]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks that. I tried watching the first few episodes and it was the most boring show I can remember watching. A total waste of a good premise


Search out the original, it's one the best examples of British telefantasy out there.

[Toku King]

I just bought "Claw Of Axos". Is it any good? Is the Master good in it?
What are the best Master-appeared episodes?

[ChrisIII]

"Claws" is average Pertwee. It's got some good moments, and a nifty concept for the monsters, plus some striking visuals for the spaceship (Although obviously blue-screen). Delgado does OK as the Master in this one, but it's not his best one.

As for the Master, Pertwee's "Daemons" is pretty good. The Master trilogy from Tom Baker/Peter Davison's era is also good too.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I watched the Tom Baker "Revenge of the Cybermen" last night. Pretty good episode where the Baker Doctor has to save a planet of gold from the Cybermen . I loved the story ...the double agent who paid the price at the end.

Good story.

[noh-varr]

Joseph's biggest role so far is Johnson from Peep Show, though he's now turning up in loads of stuff of variable quality. The remake of Survivors being his latest and that's just a dreary load of pointless rubbish.

I'd prefer Jospeh over Nighy, as although Nighy is an excellent actor it'd be Bill Nighy. Also the BBC clearly want an actor no older than 50 and that rules Nighy out.

I forgot Peep Show, I've only seen one episode so far it's on my to do list to finish up.

That's the same reason I'd choose Joseph over Nighy, since it would be hard to seperate Nighy from the role. Maybe they can get Nighy to play a Time Lord in the next season or something.

[Toku King]

"Claws" is average Pertwee. It's got some good moments, and a nifty concept for the monsters, plus some striking visuals for the spaceship (Although obviously blue-screen). Delgado does OK as the Master in this one, but it's not his best one.

As for the Master, Pertwee's "Daemons" is pretty good. The Master trilogy from Tom Baker/Peter Davison's era is also good too.

Any other good Delgado stories?

[Toku King]

rats, I meant to write it's bad that he wouldn't accept the job if it were offered xP

Why the hell not? And who says he wouldn't?

[ChrisIII]

The Sea Devils is another pretty good Delgado story (and referenced in the new series along with "Axos"), and his final story, Frontier In Space, isn't too bad either. Ones to avoid are mainly Colony In Space and The Time Monster.

There's some good Master novels too, if you can find them. The Dark Path is sort of an origin story for the Master (It sort of explains how the Master went from the Doctor's friend and colleague to well, the Master). It features the Second Doctor.

There's also "Last of the Gadarene" by Mark Gatiss which is the big finale for the Delgado Master (Although he does show up again for one 'last' time in Legacy of the Daleks).

[Toku King]

The Sea Devils is another pretty good Delgado story (and referenced in the new series along with "Axos"), and his final story, Frontier In Space, isn't too bad either. Ones to avoid are mainly Colony In Space and The Time Monster.

There's some good Master novels too, if you can find them. The Dark Path is sort of an origin story for the Master (It sort of explains how the Master went from the Doctor's friend and colleague to well, the Master). It features the Second Doctor.

There's also "Last of the Gadarene" by Mark Gatiss which is the big finale for the Delgado Master (Although he does show up again for one 'last' time in Legacy of the Daleks).

Why's "Time Monster" bad?

[Matt]

Any other good Delgado stories?

I didn't mind The Time Monster at all. The Daemons was quite good as well. The Sea Devils is also great, especially when you find out how the Master turned his specially built incarceration to his own benefit.
Delgado, quite simply, is the Master. No one else has been able to portray the character with nearly as much style, cunning or intelligence. It's such a pity the actor died, they were planning on hiring him again when the motorbike accident happened.

[Stony]

It's as I've always said: Doctor Who brings out the worst in people.

Anyway, my pick for a new companion is... this guy
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2037/2117153911_9a496b134b.jpg
The selfish token bad penny Rickson Slade from "Voyage of the Damned"

Just because I think Who could do with someone more smarmy than the Doctor (come on, admit, he's smarmy) and a nasty wit would make a good counterpoint and... it would just be different.

The only thing of course being, why would the Doctor put up with him? But that's the writers job.

And hey, since the new Who seems to be all about sentiment over intellect, we can always build up a redemption of Rickson Slade storyline in there somewhere

[Matt]

Anyway, my pick for a new companion is... this guy


They should use the shape changing penguin from the 6th Doctor audios and comics.

Come on, they've actually got a decent SFX budget now, it's time they USED it. And who doesn't love alien talking shape changing penguins?

[Toku King]

It's as I've always said: Doctor Who brings out the worst in people.

Anyway, my pick for a new companion is... this guy
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2037/2117153911_9a496b134b.jpg
The selfish token bad penny Rickson Slade from "Voyage of the Damned"

Just because I think Who could do with someone more smarmy than the Doctor (come on, admit, he's smarmy) and a nasty wit would make a good counterpoint and... it would just be different.

The only thing of course being, why would the Doctor put up with him? But that's the writers job.

And hey, since the new Who seems to be all about sentiment over intellect, we can always build up a redemption of Rickson Slade storyline in there somewhere

You know, the writers said something similar when they made Melanie Bush.
"You know what would be interesting? If the Doctor's companion was a constantly nagging, bitchy, whiny brat that would contradict the Doctor's coolness!"

[SUPERECWFAN1]

We were on Yabs a few weeks back joking around. Heres the people I joke should be the next Doctor Who


http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/rr32/julielambakis/JonOliverupcloseCustom2.jpg
Jon Oliver from the Daily Show


http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/DJQ13/Outlander/Colum/Aiden%20Quinn/Colum1.jpg
Aiden Quinn

[rick]

I enjoy Who & you've probably ignored me gushing over the Christmas special & all the other stuff I've praised in order to make this point Rick. I like Nu Who, but it's flawed & sometimes those flaws make the programme a mess to watch.

I want it to realise the potential and consistancy that it deserves with the talent involved. We have enough mediocre shite on British telly as it is without Who jumping into that particular pit, if we want mediocre shite then that's what Torchwood's for.


Honestly I don’t think that I’m ignoring anything.

It just seems to me that more often then not you get so disappointed that Who isn’t what it could be that you miss out on how good it actually is.

I’m not trying to pick a fight or anything, it’s just an observation I have based on quite a few of the posts you’ve written that I’ve read.

I apologize for misunderstanding.

[Toku King]

Saw the first two episodes of "Claws Of The Axos". Despite the God awful quality given to us by iTunes, the episodes themselves are great. I was hoping for the Master to be the mastermind behind it, but I still enjoy it. I'm finishing it up tomorrow.

[Matt]

On another note, I do have to say I did rather enjoy the 2008 Christmas special.

Lots of plot holes and the like but somehow it just ... worked.

[rick]

On another note, I do have to say I did rather enjoy the 2008 Christmas special.

Lots of plot holes and the like but somehow it just ... worked.


It really was good fun, and I really loved the alternative TARDIS.

And while I know it was sort of a tacky effect, I really got a kick out of the giant Cyberbot stomping on Victorian London.

[Captain Jim]

You know what, I liked Journey's End as well. I know it was the mother of all fanwank, but I still enjoyed it. the thing is, I'm not blind to its faults either. Everything that Matt said was absolutly true, it desperatly needed some rewriting and editiing. Still, for all its faults I enjoyed it, but then have a soft spot for fanwank.


My thoughts exactly. :smile:

[Stressfactor]

Having spent the long Christmas weekend with family and without internet I returned home tonight and managed to find "The Next Doctor" on YouTube.....

Yes, it has it's silly moments, yes it sometimes goes too far over the top BUT.... I have to say that this was quite possibly the most Christmas-y Christmas special "Doctor Who" has produced in years!

Morrissey was DELIGHTFUL as the alternative Doctor and the villain was wonderfully villanous (and a nice twist on her mind being so powerful that SHE took over the Cybermen) and you know it was nice to have a Christmas happy ending. No dead waitresses, no lonely, angsty Time Lords -- a Doctor who accepted a proper thanks from the people of Earth and took time to actually spend time with the people he has saved instead of just running off.

It was light and fluffy and as substantial as a merengue but you know what? That's what Christmas is all about!

[king mob]

Honestly I don’t think that I’m ignoring anything.

Fair enough, but it's just a tad annoying that this is about the third time I've answered a post like this when it's clear I don't hate the programme.

It just seems to me that more often then not you get so disappointed that Who isn’t what it could be that you miss out on how good it actually is.

I am disapointed in it a lot of the time because it isn't as good as it could be considering the talent involved. Like a lot of British telly drama it suffers from the 'yeah, that'll do' attitude that gives us naff episodes like Fear Her or The Unicorn & the Wasp.
I'm not going to say something is fun and good when it clearly isn't& a lot of Nu Who does fall short of the mark, not to mention it's wildly inconsistent, but when it's good it's very good. I still think series three is the best so far, it's got a consistancy that S2 & S4 don't have.

I’m not trying to pick a fight or anything, it’s just an observation I have based on quite a few of the posts you’ve written that I’ve read.

I apologize for misunderstanding.

Fair enough.

[Cyke]

You know, the writers said something similar when they made Melanie Bush.
"You know what would be interesting? If the Doctor's companion was a constantly nagging, bitchy, whiny brat that would contradict the Doctor's coolness!"

Considering how long male companions tend to stay around in nuWho, I'd hazard a guess and say a male companion like Stony proposes would only be for a few episodes. A companion with that kind of attitude could be tolerable for just a little bit, so I'd be open to seeing a twist like that.

Still, I think ultimately you'd be right, the audience wouldn't be able to tolerate much clashing between its two leads for very long. Seeing Morrisey in a very delightful role gives me hope that there will be a strong male companion one of these days, though.

Which resurrects a thought of mine from The Next Doctor:
when Jackson Lake stepped out of the TARDIS, did anyone else feel like giving him a hug? I know I did :)

[Dark_Master]

Why the hell not? And who says he wouldn't?Nesbitt said it. He said here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7705775.stm) he wouldn't accept it because he thinks that would be career suicide

[Typo Lad]

I'm just watching The Next Doctor now, and paused to ask...

Why would the Cybermen use child labor? Wouldn't using Cybermen for brute labor be far, far more efficient?

[Stressfactor]

I'm just watching The Next Doctor now, and paused to ask...

Why would the Cybermen use child labor? Wouldn't using Cybermen for brute labor be far, far more efficient?

Not enough Cybermen? Although, by that token, since they proved they could control minds why not just get a bunch of adults from the workhouses and debtors' prisons and mind control them to do the work since they wouldn't be missed either and they'd be stronger and more durable than the children.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I'm just watching The Next Doctor now, and paused to ask...

Why would the Cybermen use child labor? Wouldn't using Cybermen for brute labor be far, far more efficient?

I'm thinking they didn't really have the robot power to do it. That there was only a few of them in that era . And it seems like they had been gathering children before The Doctor arrived. That when he came in , they had to kick the plan in faster and recruit more children.

[Stressfactor]

On the subject of male companions... count me in as well in the camp who would like to see a bit more testosterone in the TARDIS (of course, I'm a chick so a little more eye candy for us seems fair).

I think a modern male companion would fit in and as for past one... I think if you go back you might see that more of the previous male companions fit in a lot better than you might think. As King Mob pointed out William Russell's take on Ian Chesterton really did have good chemistry with William Hartnell's Doctor. As a science teacher Ian had a natural sense of curiosity that played well with the Doctor's -- often the two were a bit like partners in crime wanting to go exploring and investigating.

Steven was one who was(to use a phrase I coined for a character off of another show) "nearly useless pretty boy".

I actually liked Ben Jackson and while there was a lot of potential for the character that never got used he WAS the first companion to come from an obviously lower class background and I think he brought some of that sensibility to some of the proceedings.

Jamie... well, Jamie's my fave so I'm biased from the start but he also brought that 'partner in crime' attitude to things -- he was naturally adventurous and beyond being simply useful in a fight he occasionally actually spoiled for a fight -- which was beneficial to the Doctor in several situations.

Turlough... You know, I warmed up to Turlough but mostly because they actually gave him a character arc. They could have made him a tad less slimy and it might have helped but it was still refreshing to see someone in the TARDIS who was a bit weasely and who actively became a kind of reclamation project for the Doctor.

Adric though... I've never liked Adric and never warmed to the character. Too simple, too naive, no development (except when it became too late), and too whiney.


There are actually several things I wouldn't mind seeing by way of male companions in the TARDIS that I think could liven things up:

1) Alien male that actually LOOKS like an alien for a change.

2) Father and daughter team. You get a slightly younger female actress (late teens to early 20's) who fills the "chicky-honey" component of the show but then her 40-somthing year old father gets dragged along for the ride. You have potential conflicts as the father feels that the Doctor takes too many chances with his daughter's life, the daughter struggling to make her father understand that she's fully grown now and she's GOING to make her own choices about things, on the flip side you see HER also wanting to try to protect her father from getting into dangerous situations, the father having been around the block a few times has some wisdom that even the Doctor can appreciate but at the same time the Doctor being the Doctor is far smarter than the father could ever be and the father struggles with sometimes feeling like a child next to the Doctor, etc.

BAGS of potential there.

[Typo Lad]

Interesting notes in the Wiki article about The Next Doctor

Davies, from a writer's standpoint, was also unhappy with the final scene in the episode where the Doctor gets rid of the CyberKing with the convenient Dalek dimension vault but he couldn't during the writing process think of another way to stop London being crushed by a giant robot. However, after the episode was produced, a different idea came to him. In this alternate ending Davies imagines, Miss Hartigan "should have destroyed the Cybermen when she screamed... but she's still in the chair", as the CyberKing falls to the Earth, the Doctor calls out to her saying "Save them." This version would have Hartigan redeem herself as she is the one to cause the CyberKing to disappear, with no need for what Davies calls "a silly Dalek continuum dimension vault". Julie Gardner felt this would have been a superior, "marvellous" ending and Davies says he "can't bear that there could have been a better ending than we actually transmitted".[12]

Davies also feels he would like to write a BBC Books novel, set in the midst of that brief scene where Jackson Lake is in the Doctor's TARDIS where the Doctor takes Jackson to another planet, ending with the "no no no scene" before Jackson invites the Doctor to spend Christmas dinner with him

Both awesome ideas.

[Stressfactor]

Agreed. Particularly the last one. I loved Morrissey's Jackson Lake -- a very charming and charismatic portrayal.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Interesting notes in the Wiki article about The Next Doctor

Davies, from a writer's standpoint, was also unhappy with the final scene in the episode where the Doctor gets rid of the CyberKing with the convenient Dalek dimension vault but he couldn't during the writing process think of another way to stop London being crushed by a giant robot. However, after the episode was produced, a different idea came to him. In this alternate ending Davies imagines, Miss Hartigan "should have destroyed the Cybermen when she screamed... but she's still in the chair", as the CyberKing falls to the Earth, the Doctor calls out to her saying "Save them." This version would have Hartigan redeem herself as she is the one to cause the CyberKing to disappear, with no need for what Davies calls "a silly Dalek continuum dimension vault". Julie Gardner felt this would have been a superior, "marvellous" ending and Davies says he "can't bear that there could have been a better ending than we actually transmitted".[12]

Davies also feels he would like to write a BBC Books novel, set in the midst of that brief scene where Jackson Lake is in the Doctor's TARDIS where the Doctor takes Jackson to another planet, ending with the "no no no scene" before Jackson invites the Doctor to spend Christmas dinner with him

Both awesome ideas.

I like the Jackson Lake idea...and with his added memories it could be good. Maybe they'll let that happen. The 1st idea... ok....maybe but I'd like to see Miss Hartigan as this new Cyberlord , her losing a lot of humanity and body due to the Doctor. Make it more personal if she shows up again.

[king mob]

I'm just watching The Next Doctor now, and paused to ask...

Why would the Cybermen use child labor? Wouldn't using Cybermen for brute labor be far, far more efficient?

Not Christmassy enough, plus it scared my friends kids so much they thought Cybermen were going to come and take them away.

[Charles RB]

I'm just watching The Next Doctor now, and paused to ask...

Why would the Cybermen use child labor? Wouldn't using Cybermen for brute labor be far, far more efficient?

Yeah, that whole plotline didn't really make any sense.

[king mob]

I think a modern male companion would fit in and as for past one... I think if you go back you might see that more of the previous male companions fit in a lot better than you might think. As King Mob pointed out William Russell's take on Ian Chesterton really did have good chemistry with William Hartnell's Doctor. As a science teacher Ian had a natural sense of curiosity that played well with the Doctor's -- often the two were a bit like partners in crime wanting to go exploring and investigating.

Ian's great and although I was well into my teens before I finally saw him in an episode, I thought the characters of IAn and Barbara were great when I read the Target books as a kid.

Steven was one who was(to use a phrase I coined for a character off of another show) "nearly useless pretty boy".

Not seen much of Steven, but it's Peter Purves so obviously saw loads of him on Blue Peter.

I actually liked Ben Jackson and while there was a lot of potential for the character that never got used he WAS the first companion to come from an obviously lower class background and I think he brought some of that sensibility to some of the proceedings.

I get the impression he was a bit of rough in the Tardis, but again, not seen much of him.

Turlough... You know, I warmed up to Turlough but mostly because they actually gave him a character arc. They could have made him a tad less slimy and it might have helped but it was still refreshing to see someone in the TARDIS who was a bit weasely and who actively became a kind of reclamation project for the Doctor.

I've actually grown to quite like Turlough rewatching Davison episodes on DVD. I remember hating him at the time.

Adric though... I've never liked Adric and never warmed to the character. Too simple, too naive, no development (except when it became too late), and too whiney.

God strewth, Adric, what a disaster that was. I have to say that I won't be running to buy the E-Space triology when it comes out on DVD next month.

[Stressfactor]

Oh and I forgot about good old Harry Sullivan! People don't give Ian Marter's Sullivan much credit. His slightly bumbling nature was actually rather sweet and a nice counterpoint to the Doctor. Also, people tend to forget that Harry actually did have a lot of courage. In "Genesis of the Daleks" Harry refused to leave when the Doctor stepped on a land mine and actually stabilized the mine so that the Doctor wouldn't get blown up. Harry also was the one who messed with the Zygon controls in "Terror of the Zygons" to save the Doctor from the Loch Ness Monster.

Hell, even the producer said in later years that he wished he hadn't let Marter's contract lapse and if he'd had it to do over again he would have kept the character around -- Harry Sullivan was very likable and apparently was a hit with fans.

[Paul McEnery]

I'm just watching The Next Doctor now, and paused to ask...

Why would the Cybermen use child labor? Wouldn't using Cybermen for brute labor be far, far more efficient?

Because Hartigan had easy access to them, and because she is eeeeeeevil.

[Paul McEnery]

I am disapointed in it a lot of the time because it isn't as good as it could be considering the talent involved. Like a lot of British telly drama it suffers from the 'yeah, that'll do' attitude that gives us naff episodes like Fear Her or The Unicorn & the Wasp.
.

Oh, Unicorn and the Wasp was all right. I can live with cornball Who.

And Fear Her only went a bit naff because it was obviously Tennant's nap time for that episode. Blink was much better nap time, to be sure, because it didn't have Tennant dead time, and because it was even creepier.

And both of them were much better nap time episodes than... oh, I can't even bring myself to name it.

[Ontir]

Because Hartigan had easy access to them, and because she is eeeeeeevil.

Also, because child labour was common in that time, and if you rounded up all the adults from their regular tasks, people would notice and attention would be drawn when it could least be afforded. There weren't enough surviving Cybermen to re-build on their own, hence the otherwise unexplained Cybershades and a human servant. The "Iron Giant"/Steampunk/Cyberking was pretty cool though.

[Stressfactor]

Not really. In early to mid Victorian times there were still plenty enough poor and lower class workers who could go missing and no one would notice them or give a care.

Heck, even if sosmeone DID miss them it would likely only be family and the police would probably simply spring to the conclusion that they had gone off on a drinking binge or had gotten sick of trying to support a family and scarpered off.

Using the kids was basically just a way of pulling at the heartstrings and, as King Mob pointed out, really bringing kids into the show. On that level it was kind of a brilliant idea. I mean youngster watch "Doctor Who" but they rarely ever see characters like themselves in the show. Now here was an episode where there were a bunch of yongsters like themselves running around and getting rescued by the Doctor.

[AlistairCrane]

Re: the children, I think the British still have an awful lot of guilt over the child labour of the Victorian Era, and RTD is just exorcising some of that feeling.

[thehod]

Re: the children, I think the British still have an awful lot of guilt over the child labour of the Victorian Era, and RTD is just exorcising some of that feeling.

I don't think that's the case at all. Child labour makes sense at that time because it was easily accessable and easily disposable.

And the British have no such guilt hang-up about child labour. We did it, we were bastards. We don't allow it to happen any more. No guilt going on there.

[Ontir]

...and it wasn't any different here in the US, and it went on until the early part of this century! The guilty finger has a lot of pointing to do!

[Toku King]

Finished up "The Claws Of Axos", and I really enjoyed it! Good episode with all sorts of twists an turns. The Axos may also be one of the most dangerous enemies the Doctor ever faced.

[AlistairCrane]

I don't think that's the case at all. Child labour makes sense at that time because it was easily accessable and easily disposable.

And the British have no such guilt hang-up about child labour. We did it, we were bastards. We don't allow it to happen any more. No guilt going on there.

Have you read Dickens?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I'm watching the Ribos Operation now . Its the next full story I could find on Youtube. Its kinda telling that at one point Tom Baker's "Who" tells the Guardian he doesn't want anymore companions since he feels he has to protect them and train them . But somehow gets forced into using Romana.


I always heard Tom Baker didn't really want companions with his Doctor. And someone said here or on that Who special , he'd rather be alone and make it completely about the Doctor.

[Charles RB]

Have you read Dickens?

Dickens was alive and writing at the time when child labour still existed. What relevance has he got to whether people over a century later feel guilty about it?

[Toku King]

I'm watching the Ribos Operation now . Its the next full story I could find on Youtube.

Can you pm me the link?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bJsd-TgYyQ&feature=PlayList&p=7223B35B297CC0EF&index=7


Thats the link to #7 of 13.....but ya can go to his playlist and watch from part #1.

[Toku King]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bJsd-TgYyQ&feature=PlayList&p=7223B35B297CC0EF&index=7


Thats the link to #7 of 13.....but ya can go to his playlist and watch from part #1.

I officially love you.

[Cyke]

I always heard Tom Baker didn't really want companions with his Doctor. And someone said here or on that Who special , he'd rather be alone and make it completely about the Doctor.

There's The Deadly Assassin, which had Tom Baker going at it without a companion. I haven't seen the episode myself, but I hear mixed reactions about it. I would imagine that episode was written to grant Baker's wish in a way.

On the flip side, we have Midnight, which was one the most refreshing takes I've seen in nuwho and was mostly companion-less.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I officially love you.

You'll love me even more .... that same guy has "The Pirate Planet" 4 parter that follows as well. I can tell this is an over-reaching arc for that year. Baker's "Doctor" searches for some key thats spread across different worlds etc etc.

I loved "Ribos Operation". The con artist trying to sell a planet was funny . His character must have inspired the Superman villain who years later tries selling Earth to aliens in a DC comic I have.

[Paul McEnery]

Also, because child labour was common in that time, and if you rounded up all the adults from their regular tasks, people would notice and attention would be drawn when it could least be afforded. There weren't enough surviving Cybermen to re-build on their own, hence the otherwise unexplained Cybershades and a human servant. The "Iron Giant"/Steampunk/Cyberking was pretty cool though.

Well, and also because, being a woman who was trying to overthrow patriarchy, she was abandoning her essential role as a womb for rent, and threw in with evil communist cybermen who believe in equality. Boo! Hiss!

Thank god for negroid nannies who know their place.

[darkhanamaru]

Well, and also because, being a woman who was trying to overthrow patriarchy, she was abandoning her essential role as a womb for rent, and threw in with evil communist cybermen who believe in equality. Boo! Hiss!

Thank god for negroid nannies who know their place.

Can i say i loved Miss Hartigan and the doctor was right that she could have been a great thinker/leader if she had mastered her anger. Only thing I really, really cheered in the episode.

and i am so writing an essay on "The Problem of Rose". May rosetta be the last inkling of that companion.


and negroid paul? ;)

[Matt]

I always heard Tom Baker didn't really want companions with his Doctor. And someone said here or on that Who special , he'd rather be alone and make it completely about the Doctor.

They tried it, as mentioned, in The Deadly Assassin (Sarah Jane had left at the end of the previous story).

It really didn't work since the companion is needed so the audience can have what's happening explained to them. With TDA, the Doctor ended up just talking to himself a lot rather than to a companion and it ... just didn't work well.

[darkhanamaru]

They tried it, as mentioned, in The Deadly Assassin (Sarah Jane had left at the end of the previous story).

It really didn't work since the companion is needed so the audience can have what's happening explained to them. With TDA, the Doctor ended up just talking to himself a lot rather than to a companion and it ... just didn't work well.

there couldn't be a way of writing around that with other characters? props? hmmm...i guess this is why i am not a writer.

[Toku King]

You'll love me even more .... that same guy has "The Pirate Planet" 4 parter that follows as well. I can tell this is an over-reaching arc for that year. Baker's "Doctor" searches for some key thats spread across different worlds etc etc.

THE KEYS TO TIME SAGA?! I wanna see that so bad!
And is the Pirate Arc combined with the Ribos one?

[Stressfactor]

Actually, I had heard that, yes, Baker didn't want a regular companion after Lis Sladen left but what he proposed was basically a series of one-offs. Each episode would see him picking up someone who would take on the "companion" role for that episode and at the end the Doctor would go on to his next adventure leaving the person behind.

"The Deadly Assassin" is a cracking awesome story and it's not that the Doctor doesn't have anyone to talk to because he does -- Borusa takes on a quasi-companion role and the Doctor talks to Borusa, explaining stuff throughout the episode. The only time the Doctor really talks to himself is when his mind is in the Matrix and that's because he's essentially in there alone so there is no one for him to talk TO. If anything, "Assassin" proves that Baker's idea COULD have worked but the producers wanted the traditional companion role to stay the same.

And Super -- about "The Ribos Operation" and "The Pirate Planet" et. al. Yes, they are all linked. A new producer had just taken over and he had a problem with the format of the series. In the early years, when the Doctor couldn't control the TARDIS he felt that it was alright for the Doctor to just show up, get embroiled in a problem and sort it all out. By the end of the Pertwee era, however, the Doctor had (more or less) control of the TARDIS and the Baker years saw the character seeming to gain more and more control over where and when he landed. The new producer thought that it didn't reflect well on the Doctor that he had all of this power and knowledge and yet he just freebooted around time and space doing... nothing. So the idea was to give the Doctor a "job" in the form of a quest -- a purpose so to speak. This entire season, all of the stories would more or less revolve around this quest -- The Key to Time. In fact, this whore season arc has become known as "The Key to Time Series". It has "The Ribos Operation", "The Pirate Planet", "The Stones of Blood", "The Androids of Tara", "The Power of Kroll", and "The Armageddon Factor". They should probably be watched in order -- although "The Power of Kroll" is kinda bad.

[Cyke]

Each episode would see him picking up someone who would take on the "companion" role for that episode and at the end the Doctor would go on to his next adventure leaving the person behind.


Isn't that the Knight Rider formula? :)

[Matt]

"The Deadly Assassin" is a cracking awesome story and it's not that the Doctor doesn't have anyone to talk to because he does -- Borusa takes on a quasi-companion role and the Doctor talks to Borusa, explaining stuff throughout the episode. The only time the Doctor really talks to himself is when his mind is in the Matrix and that's because he's essentially in there alone so there is no one for him to talk TO.

Borusa becomes the story-centric companion figure, so it doesn't show that the no-companion formula could work. Imagine having to introduce a similar figure in each story, it'd get very repetitive and tiresome.
I think my point is illustrated by the start of the story, where the Doctor is alone in the TARDIS watching the Citadel Guard gathering outside - he stands there and has full on dialogue with himself. The usual 'explain the situation to the companion' thing is transformed into some sometimes jarring back and forth with himself and it doesn't work.

[Paul McEnery]

THE KEYS TO TIME SAGA?! I wanna see that so bad!


Not as much as you think you do.

[Tadhg]

Not as much as you think you do.

The Ribos Operation is cute enough and the Power of Kroll is worth a watch.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I enjoyed both stories and searched on Youtube for the next one....to no luck. Now I'm looking to see if anymore of the Season #16 arc is there.

[Tadhg]

I enjoyed both stories and searched on Youtube for the next one....to no luck. Now I'm looking to see if anymore of the Season #16 arc is there.

You don't have netflix do you?

[Matt]

Not as much as you think you do.

The last story wasn't so great (The Armageddon Factor, or whatever it was called). It just seemed to drag on and on and on and on...

The Pirate Planet was a decent yarn. Power of Kroll ... not so much.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

You don't have netflix do you?

I have seen the ads for them but never really knew how it worked.

[king mob]

There's The Deadly Assassin, which had Tom Baker going at it without a companion. I haven't seen the episode myself, but I hear mixed reactions about it. I would imagine that episode was written to grant Baker's wish in a way.


It was, but Dealy Assassin is one of the best Baker Who stories you'll see. It's Robert Holmes take on the Manchurian Candidate and is simply wonderful and well overdue a DVD release, assuming 2Entertain do go out of buisness.


On the flip side, we have Midnight, which was one the most refreshing takes I've seen in nuwho and was mostly companion-less.

Midnight's my favourite episode of series 4 and a great example of how good a writer RTD actually is.

[Charles RB]

and i am so writing an essay on "The Problem of Rose". May rosetta be the last inkling of that companion.


I groaned so loudly when he said "ROSE-ita? Good name because it sounds like ROSE ROSE ROSE ALL OTHER COMPANIONS SUCK ROOOOOSE".

No wonder Martha got fed up.

[king mob]

Actually, I had heard that, yes, Baker didn't want a regular companion after Lis Sladen left but what he proposed was basically a series of one-offs. Each episode would see him picking up someone who would take on the "companion" role for that episode and at the end the Doctor would go on to his next adventure leaving the person behind.

That was the idea but Graham Williams vetoed that when he took over from Philip Hinchliffe as producer.

"The Deadly Assassin" is a cracking awesome story and it's not that the Doctor doesn't have anyone to talk to because he does -- Borusa takes on a quasi-companion role and the Doctor talks to Borusa, explaining stuff throughout the episode. The only time the Doctor really talks to himself is when his mind is in the Matrix and that's because he's essentially in there alone so there is no one for him to talk TO. If anything, "Assassin" proves that Baker's idea COULD have worked but the producers wanted the traditional companion role to stay the same.

Not to mention that Williams realised that sticking a companion in who was half naked and a bit fit would get viewing figures up, as by that point Who 's vieiwng figures were being hurt by ITV for the first time in it's history.

The Key to Time. In fact, this whore season arc has become known as "The Key to Time Series". It has "The Ribos Operation", "The Pirate Planet", "The Stones of Blood", "The Androids of Tara", "The Power of Kroll", and "The Armageddon Factor". They should probably be watched in order -- although "The Power of Kroll" is kinda bad.


Kroll is terrible, possibly the worst script Robert Holmes did for Who. Armageddon Factor does go on a bit and seriously suffers from six-parter syndrome but it's ok. Androids of Tara is average at best but the first three stories are great stuff and are among the best bits of Baker Who.

[Stressfactor]

Call me crazy but I LIKE "The Androids of Tara". I mean, yes, it is a VERY obvious rip off of "The Prisoner of Zenda" but it's soooo unrepentantly over-the-top you have to love it. Mostly, though, I love it because the villain of the piece is very 'Snidely Whiplash' -- he is the perfect parody of the old-fashioned, mustache twirling villain.

I also like most of "The Stones of Blood". I thought the idea of the mobile rocks was quite interesting and in some of the sequences the things actually do manage to look menacing. Also, Beatirx Lehmann as Professor Rumsford is just an absolute hoot! One of the best guest-star turns. She honestly looked like she was having a good time doing the ep and Tom Baker looks like he was having a good time working with her as well. It's really only when they get to the 'trial' sequences in the story that I feel that the whole thing falls apart. It gets a little TOO silly.

"The Armageddon Factor" though -- yeah, that story just feel endless. Part of the problem with it is that it was the last story of the season so the show was at the end of their budget and they had very little money left so they couldn't afford to do any outside filming. As a result, the ENTIRE episode is filmed in studio. A lot of stories suffered from 'corredor syndrome' but this one is one of the worst so it just makes a long serial seem that much longer and more boring.

[Toku King]

You don't have netflix do you?

I don't. My mom refuses to get it.

[king mob]

"The Armageddon Factor" though -- yeah, that story just feel endless. Part of the problem with it is that it was the last story of the season so the show was at the end of their budget and they had very little money left so they couldn't afford to do any outside filming. As a result, the ENTIRE episode is filmed in studio. A lot of stories suffered from 'corredor syndrome' but this one is one of the worst so it just makes a long serial seem that much longer and more boring.


The six parters suffered badly from 'corridor syndrome', even Genesis of the Daleks has a lot of pointless running up and down the same corridor. The solution would have been more two parters like The Sontaran Experiment or Black Orchid, though I don't know why more were done.

My copy of Battlefield has finally turned up. It's not a story I've seen before and I'm saving it til after Hogmanay in the hope it will help with my huge hangover I'm bound to have on New Year's Day.

[Charles RB]

The Battlefield DVD has Aaranovitch on both a feature and the commentary cheerfully slagging off his work, it's hilarious.