Doctor Who *spoilers* [Archive] - Page 25 - Comic Book Resources Forums

Stressfactor

12-11-2008, 01:33 PM

There's excellent news regarding the recapturing of colour from black & white episodes of programmes like Who & Dad's Army. This Guardian article explains all. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/dec/11/digital-video-restoration-dad-s-army)
ZOMG! That might speed up us getting some of the partially lost Pertwees since they currently can only do painstanking recoloration.

I've got an odd love for "The Mind of Evil". One of my favorite Doctor lines is in there "For once Brigadier do you think you could arrive BEFORE the nick of time?" :biggrin: It's one that I would love to see come out.

I ordered Black Orchid online and it should be coming in soon and then I just have to finish up one final paper for my classes and I can use watching it as a treat for getting everything done for the semester.

I've also got Patrick Stewart's "The 11th Hour" waiting on my backlog. You would NOT believe this BUT... When I was packing up to move I went to sell some useless books, DVD's and VHS's at a Half-Price Books store and while I was waiting for them to tell me how little they were going to offer me for my stuff I went meandering in their used DVD section. I usually look to see if anyone's been crazy enough to divest themselves of some Doctor Who stuff (no one ever is) when I spotted the complete 11th Hour set for only $16 bucks!!! As it turned out, the store paid me $15 for the stuff I sold so I essentially got the set for $1!!!!!!

YAY!

Charles RB

12-11-2008, 01:53 PM

I think they should've found a way to keep the TARDIS coral scene. I want to imagine that Rose and the Doctor are exploring the alt-verse in the TARDIS.

Except earlier in Army Of Ghost/Doomsday, we had scenes specifically done to give us the impression it's bad for Rose to stay travelling with the Doctor. If it wasn't bad, what was the point of wasting our time with those scenes?

I think it would have been much more powerful of a storyline, if Rose and the Doctor didn't meet at all during the entire storyline, that they kept missing each other. The way it actually ended deflates a great deal of the power of the ending of the 2nd season.

I was so excited when they had them meet only for a Dalek to open fire... and they blew it.

AlistairCrane

12-11-2008, 02:50 PM

Except earlier in Army Of Ghost/Doomsday, we had scenes specifically done to give us the impression it's bad for Rose to stay travelling with the Doctor. If it wasn't bad, what was the point of wasting our time with those scenes?

That was the original Doctor, not the Doctor 10.5.

Paul McEnery

12-11-2008, 03:32 PM

Um, do you know how many fans you would've pissed off?! It's a good thing you're not the one running the show!

Pissing off fans is a sure sign you're making quality work.

The most excellent somethingpositive gets it right:

http://somethingpositive.net/sp11292008.shtml

Charles RB

12-11-2008, 04:00 PM

That was the original Doctor, not the Doctor 10.5.

Who has exactly the same personality as the regular Doctor.

And would be taking her into exactly the same situations and exactly the same distance from her family as the regular Doctor, if he had a Tardis.

Of course now Rose will get to see the Doctor get old and flabby. Add that to no Tardis, I don't really see the relationship lasting very long... (She already seemed put-out that she didn't get the "real" Doctor)

Charles RB

12-11-2008, 04:03 PM

While I'm at it - Rose created her dimension-hopping kit so she could get back to the Doctor, before the Daleks did their thing, after it was made clear poking holes in reality harms both worlds you hope between, starting from a world that was suffering from rapid temperature increases last time we saw it (they won't have gone away).

Rose was willing to cause serious damage to two planets because of an infatuation she couldn't get over, and RTD seems to have not realised that's what he wrote.

AlistairCrane

12-11-2008, 04:34 PM

Pissing off fans is a sure sign you're making quality work.

The most excellent somethingpositive gets it right:

http://somethingpositive.net/sp11292008.shtml

No it's not. Considering it's the fans who pretty much keep the creators working, it's the creators' job to please the fans. And keeping Rose and the Doctor apart would not please fans, at least not real fans. In fact, your scenario would just piss off and alienate the audience, thus leading to a decline in ratings and then cancellation.

Shame on you for even suggesting it!

P.S. Charles RB has been added to my ignore list.

Paul McEnery

12-11-2008, 04:58 PM

No it's not. Considering it's the fans who pretty much keep the creators working, it's the creators' job to please the fans.

"I'm tired of you comic creators thinking just because you make something, you own it!. You don't! It's ours the minute we read it! And the fans know better than you do what's right, otherwise we'd be making comics, not reading them!"

Typo Lad

12-11-2008, 04:59 PM

"I'm tired of you comic creators thinking just because you make something, you own it!. You don't! It's ours the minute we read it! And the fans know better than you do what's right, otherwise we'd be making comics, not reading them!"
Kinda scary, side by side like that.

AlistairCrane

12-11-2008, 05:01 PM

Dark_Master

12-11-2008, 05:27 PM

Rose was willing to cause serious damage to two planets because of an infatuation she couldn't get over, and RTD seems to have not realised that's what he wrote.I think her excuse for doing that was that all universes were screwed anyway so jumping to see the Doctor wouldn't be all that bad. Well, that and also because she had to go "help" the Doctor (because she did a lot in the series finale :rolleyes: )

adamthered

12-11-2008, 05:31 PM

When I was packing up to move I went to sell some useless books, DVD's and VHS's at a Half-Price Books store and while I was waiting for them to tell me how little they were going to offer me for my stuff I went meandering in their used DVD section. I usually look to see if anyone's been crazy enough to divest themselves of some Doctor Who stuff (no one ever is) when I spotted the complete 11th Hour set for only $16 bucks!!! As it turned out, the store paid me $15 for the stuff I sold so I essentially got the set for $1!!!!!!YAY!

I love 1/2 Price Books for this very reason. 9 times out of 10 you're going to find absolutely nothing while they're having you grab your ankles but that 1 time of of 10 you find that rare gem for some insanely low price it makes it so worth. (Like the time I found Red Dward Series VIII for $20 when it was the last set I needed for the series :D)

Charles RB

12-11-2008, 05:56 PM

I think her excuse for doing that was that all universes were screwed anyway so jumping to see the Doctor wouldn't be all that bad.

Yeah, but she was working on it BEFORE that happened.

And that makes her slightly disturbing.

Well, that and also because she had to go "help" the Doctor (because she did a lot in the series finale :rolleyes: )

Yeah, that was annoying - all the fuss of her return and she doesn't do anything. Her only significant action is in Turn Left, and as she's not acting very Rose-like and the plot doesn't revolve around her being Rose, you could've put someone else there.

Stressfactor

12-11-2008, 06:30 PM

Pissing off fans is a sure sign you're making quality work.
I wouldn't quite go THAT far but it *is* true that writers should do what's best for the story and not always what the fans want.

Every once in a while the show NEEDS to have a companion leave badly. I mean, I know there are some who never really liked Janet Fielding's Tegan but you've got to admit, her leaving taking was absolutely wrenching as she just... ran away from it all.

Jamie and Zoe were FORCED away from the Doctor and had all their memories wiped -- and you can bet there were great fans of the series back then who were just heartbroken over it all.

I don't think RTD should have given Rose the sappy "happy ending" for the fans' sake but look at it this way -- by doing it THIS way at least it puts a final period of the Doctor-Rose 'shippers and it allows the series to move forward. If he hadn't done it this way there would probably be people clamoring for the return of Rose ten years and God knows how many Doctors down the line.

Charles RB

12-11-2008, 06:53 PM

Every once in a while the show NEEDS to have a companion leave badly. I mean, I know there are some who never really liked Janet Fielding's Tegan but you've got to admit, her leaving taking was absolutely wrenching as she just... ran away from it all.

Jamie and Zoe were FORCED away from the Doctor and had all their memories wiped -- and you can bet there were great fans of the series back then who were just heartbroken over it all.

And Nicola Bryant was very annoyed she didn't get to really die - that's a much more memorable end than "oh, and she's married this beardy guy".

Also, I still say Jo Grant's leaving was better and more powerful than Rose's, simply due to the quiet and understated nature of it. There's no sound and fury and mass-weeping for the Third Doctor, no cosmic force conviniently stopping the conversation - he's just lost her, and everyone else is happy, and he's on his own. There is a reason Katy Manning started crying in the DVD commentary.

king mob

12-12-2008, 01:16 AM

No it's not. Considering it's the fans who pretty much keep the creators working, it's the creators' job to please the fans. And keeping Rose and the Doctor apart would not please fans, at least not real fans. In fact, your scenario would just piss off and alienate the audience, thus leading to a decline in ratings and then cancellation.

Shame on you for even suggesting it!
You don't seem to realise that the programme has an average audience of 7 million people since it's return and not all of them are hardcore fans. In fact RTD has brought back the mainstream audience to Who after the orginal series alienated casual viewers with it's convuluted continuity and poor scripts.

It's the vast mainstream audience on a Saturday night that makes the programme a success, not us lot, we'll watch it regardless unless it drops quality to something like series one of Torchwood. Even then they'll be those who'll still watch it.

P.S. Charles RB has been added to my ignore list.

That's just being incredibly silly.

king mob

12-12-2008, 01:17 AM

Cyke

12-12-2008, 01:50 AM

The Real Doctor giving 10.5 Doctor his own TARDIS would very much negate the punishment the Real Doctor was going to dish out anyway. He's right, the other Doctor committed genocide, something that's pretty unforgivable. Giving him access to the one thing the real Doctor loves -- exploring in the TARDIS -- would've been a mere slap on the wrist.

Charles RB

12-12-2008, 05:06 AM

Course, that means the Doctor should confiscate his own Tardis.

And not have let Rose travel in it after S1.

Stressfactor

12-12-2008, 07:01 AM

And Nicola Bryant was very annoyed she didn't get to really die - that's a much more memorable end than "oh, and she's married this beardy guy".
Surprisingly though, that one was Colin Baker's fault. He's the one who lobbied for her not to die.

Also, I still say Jo Grant's leaving was better and more powerful than Rose's, simply due to the quiet and understated nature of it. There's no sound and fury and mass-weeping for the Third Doctor, no cosmic force conviniently stopping the conversation - he's just lost her, and everyone else is happy, and he's on his own. There is a reason Katy Manning started crying in the DVD commentary.
Whoa! Katy Manning CRIED on the DVD commentary?! "The Green Death" is on my list of 'things to get' but I haven't gotten it yet.

If we want to talk about interesting exits -- Sarah Jane had a good one. I mean just.... BOOM! A slap right there at the end and the fact that she had been whining about leaving in order to try to the Doctor to feel sorry for her and apologize for everything that had happened just made it more stunning when the Doctor told her she DID have to leave.

She was also, technically, the first companion the Doctor PUT off the TARDIS -- even if it was reluctant.

I've heard stories that, originally, they were going to write Sarah Jane off in a story that would have seen her die at the end and Lis Sladen put her foot down and said she didn't want Sarah Jane killed off or married off and Tom Baker backed her up on it.

Probably the WORST leaving was Leela's... I mean, c'mon! She and Andred?!?! And good old Xenophobic Gallifrey is going to be okay with a tribal-level human running around their precious citadel? Don't think so.

Charles RB

12-12-2008, 09:35 AM

Surprisingly though, that one was Colin Baker's fault. He's the one who lobbied for her not to die.

According to him in the collection of Who interviews by Doctor Who Mag, he said he needed to know if Peri was really dead or if it was the Matrix tampered with. "I suspect that it was easier at that moment to say 'Don't worry Doctor, Peri is now married to Yrcanos', than acknowledge that we should have written a scene for the Doctor to mourn the passing of his companion... they ratted out on it."

Whoa! Katy Manning CRIED on the DVD commentary?!

Yep. Very openly.

I've heard stories that, originally, they were going to write Sarah Jane off in a story that would have seen her die at the end and Lis Sladen put her foot down and said she didn't want Sarah Jane killed off or married off and Tom Baker backed her up on it.

I don't know if they stood against it, but there was a planned story that'd kill her - the writer didn't have time though, or something.

Probably the WORST leaving was Leela's...

It was so bad the actress was told "look, we can quickly rewrite this crap and you can stay"!

Stressfactor

12-12-2008, 09:55 AM

According to him in the collection of Who interviews by Doctor Who Mag, he said he needed to know if Peri was really dead or if it was the Matrix tampered with. "I suspect that it was easier at that moment to say 'Don't worry Doctor, Peri is now married to Yrcanos', than acknowledge that we should have written a scene for the Doctor to mourn the passing of his companion... they ratted out on it."
That's interesting because I had read that C. Baker had protested it because he thought that Peri's official death would potentially upset any kids who might still be watching the program and he didn't want that.

I don't know if they stood against it, but there was a planned story that'd kill her - the writer didn't have time though, or something. No, Sladen has said in interviews that she openly protested it. She knew about the planned story but she also knew that, historically, a popular way of getting rid of female companions was to marry them off and, after years of playing Sarah Jane, she had become rather protective of the character and she didn't feel that it would be right for the character to either die or get married. She's said that Tom Baker backed her up and, even when the time came for the ending to "The Hand of Fear" she's said that she and Baker didn't really like a lot of the dialogue as originally scripted so they sat together and heavily re-wrote it in rehersals.

t was so bad the actress was told "look, we can quickly rewrite this crap and you can stay"!
The way I had heard it, though, was that the producers really, really wanted Louise Jamison to stay on and, despite the fact that she had repeatedly told them she wasn't going to stay, they had refused to write her character out until the last minute, hoping to convince her to stay on. Either way, it WAS crap but there was no way they were going to convince Jamison to stay on.

AlistairCrane

12-12-2008, 11:01 AM

You don't seem to realise that the programme has an average audience of 7 million people since it's return and not all of them are hardcore fans. In fact RTD has brought back the mainstream audience to Who after the orginal series alienated casual viewers with it's convuluted continuity and poor scripts.

It's the vast mainstream audience on a Saturday night that makes the programme a success, not us lot, we'll watch it regardless unless it drops quality to something like series one of Torchwood. Even then they'll be those who'll still watch it.

And it's that vast mainstream audience that enjoys the Doctor/Rose romance! I for one am glad to be one of them, and I am extremely pleased to have gotten my happy ending.

P.S. This show airs in the UK on Saturday night? Don't people go out on Saturday night like they do here?

Charles RB

12-12-2008, 12:03 PM

That's interesting because I had read that C. Baker had protested it because he thought that Peri's official death would potentially upset any kids who might still be watching the program and he didn't want that.

That was an argument the producers used to reverse the death, maybe you're getting the two mixed up?

No, Sladen has said in interviews that she openly protested it.

*looks at the In Their Own Words copies again*

Ah yep, you're right.

The way I had heard it, though, was that the producers really, really wanted Louise Jamison to stay on and, despite the fact that she had repeatedly told them she wasn't going to stay, they had refused to write her character out until the last minute, hoping to convince her to stay on

Yep, that was it. Graham Williams really wanted her to stay on, she still wanted to leave. She's said she thinks they could get her to change her mind.

She also said: "Wasn't it awful?" and "Leela could have at least died saving the Doctor!".

The final scene was written "on the hoof" and Graham Williams himself hates how she left. He also claims he was pushed into marrying her off by others and caved in "like an idiot".

Charles RB

12-12-2008, 12:12 PM

And it's that vast mainstream audience that enjoys the Doctor/Rose romance!

Inaccurate. The audience kept watching after Rose had left.

Stressfactor

12-12-2008, 02:52 PM

That was an argument the producers used to reverse the death, maybe you're getting the two mixed up?
Possibly. It still has always really surprised me that Bryant wanted her character to die so badly.

Toku King

12-12-2008, 02:53 PM

I just got my own Sonic Screwdriver! And Sonic Pen!
They're so awesome!

Charles RB

12-12-2008, 03:11 PM

Possibly. It still has always really surprised me that Bryant wanted her character to die so badly.

She thought it was a memorable way to go out.

Death keeps people remembering Adric, after all...

Stressfactor

12-12-2008, 03:13 PM

I just got my own Sonic Screwdriver! And Sonic Pen!
They're so awesome!

"What happens when you put two sonic devices together?"
"... I don't know."
"Neither do I, let's find out, shall we?"

Stressfactor

12-12-2008, 03:14 PM

She thought it was a memorable way to go out.

Death keeps people remembering Adric, after all...
Yeah, but a lot of that is STILL rejoicing that Adric was finally gone and would never come back. :biggrin:

Toku King

12-12-2008, 04:55 PM

"What happens when you put two sonic devices together?"
"... I don't know."
"Neither do I, let's find out, shall we?"

Oh trust me, I tried it.

Matt

12-12-2008, 07:12 PM

Course, that means the Doctor should confiscate his own Tardis.

And not have let Rose travel in it after S1.

The Doctor, especially the 7th, has killed a huge number of lifeforms. Remembrance of the Daleks and Silver Nemesis both featured mass evil alien death and destruction directly at the Doctor's hands.
Which isn't to say he wasn't right to do it.

And yeah, I have found the 10th Doctor's (to lesser extent the 9th's) attitude towards death to be very hypocritical.

Toku King

12-13-2008, 03:13 AM

And yeah, I have found the 10th Doctor's (to lesser extent the 9th's) attitude towards death to be very hypocritical.

The Ninth Doctor wasn't at all hypocritical. He valued life, but after the bullshit the Daleks have done recently, he's been constantly regretting not killing them off at the beginning of their creation.
I think that a big point with the Tenth Doctor is that he's been so mixed up and confused with all of this killing over the years, that really can't be the judge of it anymore.

The Fourth Doctor was somewhat hypocritical, but not to the Tenth Doctor's extent. He wouldn't kill a race that would murder billions, though he blew up the Nucleus(though, to be fair, the Doctor did offer him co-existence).

Charles RB

12-13-2008, 04:57 AM

I remember the Second Doctor sending an Ice Warrior fleet into the sun with no remorse...

Don't mess with the Second Doctor.

Stressfactor

12-13-2008, 05:14 AM

I remember the Second Doctor sending an Ice Warrior fleet into the sun with no remorse...

Don't mess with the Second Doctor.
True dat. In some ways he was the model for the 7th. Sure he LOOKED like a slightly befuddled, sweet, cosmic hobo but he'd do what he felt was best -- and a lot of times that involved mass casualties.

Toku King

12-13-2008, 05:33 AM

I remember the Second Doctor sending an Ice Warrior fleet into the sun with no remorse...

Don't mess with the Second Doctor.

Here's the thing, though: The Second Doctor only did mass murders like that when he knew that there was absolutely no alternative. The Ice Warriors were not going to stop, and the only way to make them quit was to kill them.

The Seventh Doctor was the second most insanely violent Doctor, only second to the Sixth Doctor(which I'll talk about in a little bit). The thing with him was that you could tell that after hundreds of years and over several generations, he was getting tired and angry of seeing the same evil faces over and over again. The only thing that gave him any light on the "Masterminding the deaths of numerous villains" was when he almost killed the Master with his bear hands. You could tell that that was the moment where the Doctor from then on seemed to act a little different.

The Sixth Doctor was easily the most violent, even using violence and death as an option when it really didn't need to be. That's one of the reasons why the Sixth Doctor is my least favorite of all: When any other Doctor kills someone, it's when that's either his last or only option. The Sixth Doctor, though, was ready to kill and hurt whoever when he liked it.

king mob

12-13-2008, 07:24 AM

Possibly. It still has always really surprised me that Bryant wanted her character to die so badly.

The word is that she was so fed up with the programme & how terrible her character had become that she wanted no way back.

Toku King

12-13-2008, 08:49 AM

Cyke

12-13-2008, 10:15 AM

"What happens when you put two sonic devices together?"
"... I don't know."
"Neither do I, let's find out, shall we?"

Things don't look too good for the Doctor...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGQQTMeReDE&feature=channel_page

ZT4

12-13-2008, 11:18 AM

Doctor Who Magazine's confirmed some interesting niggles from Big Finish and RTD.

-Comic Strip companion Izzy (from the Eighth Doctor strips) will be making her audio debut (as will Fitz from the novels) in an anthology peice also including an apperance by Benny Summerfield

-The second special requires ambitious location-shooting and contains the words "Watersnake Wormholes" in one of the drafts.

Charles RB

12-13-2008, 12:19 PM

The word is that she was so fed up with the programme & how terrible her character had become that she wanted no way back.

Is it? I've never seen that said by anyone off the show (and a lot of them from the time are very honest re this stuff). She herself has said that she just "wanted to go out with a bang" rather than get married off, and was leaving because her contract was up.

She's also come out against the hiatus - "All the excuses and reasons tgat were given for cancelling the show were absolutely laughable. None of them stood up in an argument." - and the only ep I remember her slagging off was Timelash. And everyone slags that one off!

(From the same source as that, there's an anecdote by Nicola being called up and asked by a journo "What do you think of the death of Doctor Who?", and thinking he meant Colin had died...)

Comic Strip companion Izzy (from the Eighth Doctor strips) will be making her audio debut

YAYYYYYYYYYYYY! :smile:

Stressfactor

12-13-2008, 12:48 PM

I found out about a fan made series called "Doctor Who" that's about the Eleventh Doctor.
The first couple of episodes are rocky, but it's actually very well done for a fan film.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kf0CMUpEM1g&feature=channel

Oh there are lots around better than that. I'll admit it's pretty good for a bunch of kids but I've seen other kids who do some pretty mind boggling special effects.

There is a part of me that just giggles when I think that 30 years ago it required a bucket of money and a raft of technicians from the BBC to produce something which, nowadays, a couple of teenagers with some computer programs and a video camera can beat all to hell.

Two that I (shamefacedly) rather like are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhuDi3fzngI
And before anyone complains about there being too many Doctors and numbers not matching up -- the idea here is that all of these Doctors come from alternate dimensions.

And this one...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2K2URUN25w&feature=PlayList&p=5FB766F05DE52B21&index=0
If you watch though, stay through the credits for a surprise...

Toku King

12-13-2008, 03:48 PM

Oh there are lots around better than that. I'll admit it's pretty good for a bunch of kids but I've seen other kids who do some pretty mind boggling special effects.

It grows on you greatly the more you watch it. Besides, I think that they did an amazing job with what little they had.
And the kid playing the Doctor is fantastic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhuDi3fzngI
And before anyone complains about there being too many Doctors and numbers not matching up -- the idea here is that all of these Doctors come from alternate dimensions.

Very good. Would be better if it was actually a series. Also, that bear thing was kinda dumb to me. Great Master, though.

And this one...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2K2URUN25w&feature=PlayList&p=5FB766F05DE52B21&index=0
If you watch though, stay through the credits for a surprise...[/QUOTE]

Watching the first part right now. Really good!

Stressfactor

12-13-2008, 04:03 PM

It grows on you greatly the more you watch it. Besides, I think that they did an amazing job with what little they had.
And the kid playing the Doctor is fantastic!
Oh, I had seen all of these about a year back. My biggest problem was that the kid who wrote most of them and starred as "the Doctor" increasingly stole character, situations, and even whole paragraphs of dialogue from various new series episodes. It got really annoying and it bugged me because his earlier stories were far more original and then it was like he got lazier or more pressed for time as he went on.

Toku King

12-13-2008, 04:36 PM

Oh, I had seen all of these about a year back. My biggest problem was that the kid who wrote most of them and starred as "the Doctor" increasingly stole character, situations, and even whole paragraphs of dialogue from various new series episodes. It got really annoying and it bugged me because his earlier stories were far more original and then it was like he got lazier or more pressed for time as he went on.

If I had one issue, it was that as well where he just stole stuff from the new series.
But overall I like it, and considering that they used the Axos recently(though they were nothing like them, but still), I'm hoping for the Master to show up.

king mob

12-14-2008, 06:16 AM

Is it? I've never seen that said by anyone off the show (and a lot of them from the time are very honest re this stuff). She herself has said that she just "wanted to go out with a bang" rather than get married off, and was leaving because her contract was up.

She wasn't enjoying how Peri turned out as her character was supoosed to be a smart cookie but ended up being typical Who totty. I've seen her speak about this at a con in Brum a few years back but to be honest I wasn't listening too closely due to me being pissed & only going for a filthy letch.

Toku King

12-14-2008, 07:09 AM

She wasn't enjoying how Peri turned out as her character was supoosed to be a smart cookie but ended up being typical Who totty. I've seen her speak about this at a con in Brum a few years back but to be honest I wasn't listening too closely due to me being pissed & only going for a filthy letch.

This post made me think: Who are the hottest female companions ever?

Nicola Bryant is obviously one of them. There's also Billie Piper, Freema Agyeman, Elisabeth Sladen, and a few that escape my mind at the moment.

Charles RB

12-14-2008, 10:05 AM

She wasn't enjoying how Peri turned out as her character was supoosed to be a smart cookie but ended up being typical Who totty.

Oh yeah, she's on record of disliking that (especially on Timelash) but doesn't appear to have been unhappy enough on the show to want to be erased from it (otherwise she wouldn't have been miffed about the hiatus).

Now Janet Fielding, on the other hand...!

AlistairCrane

12-14-2008, 11:09 AM

Advice please!! My local library has several classic Doctor Who adventures available on DVD. Of these, which do you recommend?

-The Visitation
-The Green Death
-Ghost Light
-Resurrection of the Daleks
-Lost in time: the Patrick Troughton years, 1966-1969
-Lost in time: the William Hartnell years, 1963-1966
-The Two Doctors
-The Three Doctors
-The Five Doctors
-Pyramids of Mars
-The Seeds of Death
-The Talons of Weng-Chiang
-The Dalek Invasion of Earth
-The Aztecs
-Remembrance of the Daleks
-The Robots of Death

And on...*shudders*...VHS...
-Black Orchid
-Delta and the Bannermen
-Earthshock
-Planet of Giants
-Underworld
-The Tenth Planet
-Planet of the Daleks
-Horror of Fang Rock
-The Monster of Peladon
-Planet of Evil
-The Claws of Axos
-Inferno
-The Caves of Androzani
-Spearhead From Space
-The Seeds of Doom
-The Ambassadors of Death

Thanks in advance!!

Stressfactor

12-14-2008, 12:07 PM

"Pyramids of Mars" and "Talons of Weng-Chiang" are two of my faves.

Plus, since you're coming from a point of only having seen David Tennant you're likely to find Tom Baker's version of the Doctor more your speed at first.

Hartnell and Troughton are great for their own merits but they are an acquired taste and the "Lost in Time" DVD's are primarily of interest for completists since the stories on there are only surviving bits of lost episodes.

AlistairCrane

12-14-2008, 12:34 PM

ChrisIII

12-14-2008, 01:54 PM

The Visitation

-A good early Davison, although he's obviously finding his way into the role (This was the second one he filmed).

-The Green Death

-My favorite Pertwee. The one with the maggots. Also features one of the better companion departures.

-Ghost Light

-The last serial filmed from the classic series (But not the last aired). One of the more convulted stories but a decent performance from McCoy and co.

-Resurrection of the Daleks

-One of the most violent 80's WHO, this begins the Dalek story arc of the 80s with the Dalek factions against each other.

-Lost in time: the Patrick Troughton years, 1966-1969

-As mentioned, the Lost in Time series are pretty much fragments of incomplete serials. Worth a look but don't expect complete stories.

-Lost in time: the William Hartnell years, 1963-1966

-The Two Doctors

-An OK Colin Baker story with Patrick Troughton. The weakest of the Doctor team-ups.

-The Three Doctors

-The first Doctor team-up, this also introduces some backstory for the time lords. Weak music and monsters, though.

-The Five Doctors

-The big 80's special with a lot of Doctors and Monsters. Paper-thin story but lots of fun.

-Pyramids of Mars

-Who's take on the Mummy and the ancient astronauht theory. Good performances all around, especially Gabriel Woolf as Sutekh, who spends almost the entire story in a chair.

-The Seeds of Death

-An average Troughton episode, nifty direction and camera work though.

-The Talons of Weng-Chiang

-The final of the Phillip Hinchcliffe era of WHO, a Who take on Sherlock Holmes.

-The Dalek Invasion of Earth

-Epic scale Hartnell although very low-budget. Hartnell has some of his best lines in this.

-The Aztecs

-The best from Hartnell's and the show's first season. The companions really shine in this.

-Remembrance of the Daleks

-The final Dalek serial of the classic series. Very Pertweeesque with the Doctor aiding the military against the Daleks. Also the first serial to introduce a darker shade of McCoy's Doctor.

-The Robots of Death

Classic Tom Baker whodunit story. Good Robot design except for the shoes.

And on...*shudders*...VHS...
-Black Orchid

A fun, light Doctor Who story.

-Delta and the Bannermen

-Perhaps the worst WHO serial ever.

-Earthshock

The best Cybermen story of the 80s, this also did something unexpected (at the time) at the end.

-Planet of Giants

-OK but not great Hartnell where the TARDIS crew got shrunk.

-Underworld

-One of the worst Tom Bakers. Good idea, bad execution.

-The Tenth Planet

-Hartnell's finale and the first appearence of the Cybermen. Pretty good although the final episode is mostly missing.

-Planet of the Daleks

-Average Pertwee runaround with the Daleks.

-Horror of Fang Rock

-A fun Tom vs. Alien in an enclosed space story. Done during the Graham Williams era but feels like a Hinchcliffe story.

-The Monster of Peladon

-Haven't seen this one. Suppossed to be pretty bad though.

-Planet of Evil

-WHO's take on Forbidden Planet and Jekkyl and Hyde. Good, but not as fun as an Earth story.

-The Claws of Axos

-OK Pertwee with the Master and the Spaghetti Aliens.

-Inferno

-Doctor Who's take on an alternate universe story. An Early Pertwee classic.

-The Caves of Androzani

-Davison's finale and one of WHO's best.

-Spearhead From Space

-Pertwee's debut story. Has a movie-like feel since it's entirely shot on film.

-The Seeds of Doom

-Fun "The Thing"-like episode with the Doctor, Sarah and UNIT battling a giant plant monster.

-The Ambassadors of Death

-Early Pertwee, not quite as good as others from the same season.

Stressfactor

12-14-2008, 02:58 PM

I've seen many Doctors. I grew up with Doctor Who in the late 80s/early 90s--it used to air on Saturday or Sunday mornings. I even remember some black and white episodes with the original TARDIS. Unfortunately, that was so long ago and I was so young that I don't recall what stories they were. I do remember Tom Baker and Peter Davison, though. Come to think of it, I'm sure I've seen all of the Doctors in action at some point but I can't remember the details.

I even watched the 1996 tv movie when it originally aired!

And don't forget Christopher Eccleston!

I'll check out your suggestions. I also want to see Sarah Jane in action.
Sorry, my mistake.

I still say, though, the Bakers are a good place to start and "Pyramids of Mars" is one of Sarah Jane's better stories since she doesn't have to do much screaming, she handles herself pretty well and she proves that she's not at all afraid to poke holes in the Doctor's ego if she thinks it's getting overinflated.

ChrisIII

12-14-2008, 08:28 PM

It's important with Baker to realize that the stories under each producer vary wildly. Phillip Hinchcliffe, while he started off with more sci-fi oriented entries in Tom's first season, his second and third seasons focused more on "gothic" horror and WHO-style takes on classic horror films and other genres. WHO caught some flack for violence during this era, and when the new producer (Graham Williams) arrived, he lowered the violence and brought Tom's comedic talents to the fore, so a lot of his era is lighthearted adventure. The Graham Williams era has a mixed reception from fans, but it was probably when the original program was most popular with the mainstream public.

Tom's final season, the first produced by John Nathan Turner, tried to bring a more serious approach but many felt that he killed the fun of the program and that it started the decline of the series.

Charles RB

12-15-2008, 04:12 PM

Based on ratings, that doesn't quite hold up - they don't drop significantly until Trial Of A Time Lord, and there are several factors there (Trial generally being considered shit didn't help...).

Paul McEnery

12-15-2008, 06:53 PM

I also want to see Sarah Jane in action.

You dirty, dirty man.

ChrisIII

12-15-2008, 08:34 PM

Apparentally the ratings for Tom Baker's final season were pretty poor-there was improvement during Davison's era but the ratings dropped again in Colin's era, I think....

Stressfactor

12-15-2008, 08:40 PM

Apparentally the ratings for Tom Baker's final season were pretty poor-there was improvement during Davison's era but the ratings dropped again in Colin's era, I think....
While I've never been a fan of JNT's work (and less a fan the more I learn about how heavy handedly controlling he got with the show) let's not absolve Tom Baker of ALL reponsibility. The man was so obviously burned out it showed. He was something like 47 years old and in some shots he looks easily mid-50's. Baker probably should have gotten out at least a season earlier.

Charles RB

12-16-2008, 12:31 AM

Apparentally the ratings for Tom Baker's final season were pretty poor-there was improvement during Davison's era

They improved quite a lot then due to the presence of a new, fresh Doctor and a change in timeslot. JN-T also deliberately courted the press and returning audiences for years with stunts and strategic returns of old characters - sort of like what RTD has done a lot of, except 80s.

ChrisIII

12-16-2008, 07:36 AM

I've read that Tom was very ill during the filming of his final season-he's noticeably thinner than in previous seasons.

Stressfactor

12-16-2008, 09:18 AM

I've read that Tom was very ill during the filming of his final season-he's noticeably thinner than in previous seasons.
He caught a nasty virus around the start of the E-Space Trilogy but he was over it by Logopolis.

king mob

12-16-2008, 01:22 PM

While I've never been a fan of JNT's work (and less a fan the more I learn about how heavy handedly controlling he got with the show) let's not absolve Tom Baker of ALL reponsibility. The man was so obviously burned out it showed. He was something like 47 years old and in some shots he looks easily mid-50's. Baker probably should have gotten out at least a season earlier.

Baker's last series is generally awful for a number of reasons but he has admitted that his grumpiness never helped, plus this was made worse by his heavy drinking and general contempt for how the programme was going to develop under JNT.

Fans shouldn't be too hard on JNT; he managed to keep the programme going years after it really should have been cancelled. His problem was he was stuck on Who and nobody at the BBC considered him a particularly good producer, though he was eventually offered Bergerac, a programme he hated.

Doodle Bob

12-16-2008, 06:34 PM

Fans shouldn't be too hard on JNT; he managed to keep the programme going years after it really should have been cancelled.

An intriguing remark. At which point, would you say the show should have been cancelled? Or, another way of phrasing it: at which point, would you say that it would have made sense to cancel?

AlistairCrane

12-16-2008, 08:05 PM

I just watched Voyage of the Damned for the first time. I love how it all takes place just moments after Martha leaves him, and his encounter with his former self.

Also, Astrid is now my third favourite companion behind Rose and Martha.

AlistairCrane

12-16-2008, 08:06 PM

The Visitation

-A good early Davison, although he's obviously finding his way into the role (This was the second one he filmed).

.....

Thanks! I've decided to start with the Five Doctors since it seems to be a fun romp.

Stressfactor

12-16-2008, 08:10 PM

Also, Astrid is now my third favourite companion behind Rose and Martha.

Really? Why? I'm honestly curious. Me, I couldn't really bring myself to care about her but part of that was, within five minutes in, I had this story pegged as a "Posiedon Adventure" rip-off and I basically knew who was going to live and who was going to die and Astrid was definitely in the "gonna die" category.

About the only two surprises was the Doctor leaving Mr. Copper on Earth and the really obnoxious guy whom you kind of hoped WOULD die actually made it all the way through... and was still obnoxious.

Stressfactor

12-16-2008, 08:11 PM

Thanks! I've decided to start with the Five Doctors since it seems to be a fun romp.
Keep in mind, Richard Hurndall plays the first Doctor in this one -- basically filling in the role for the deceased William Hartnell and he just never quite re-captures Hartnell's feistiness.

AlistairCrane

12-16-2008, 08:19 PM

Keep in mind, Richard Hurndall plays the first Doctor in this one -- basically filling in the role for the deceased William Hartnell and he just never quite re-captures Hartnell's feistiness.

I plan on watching Hartnell at some point...I remember him as the Doctor but again very vaguely.

Do they explain why the First Doctor looks different?

AlistairCrane

12-16-2008, 08:19 PM

Really? Why? I'm honestly curious. Me, I couldn't really bring myself to care about her but part of that was, within five minutes in, I had this story pegged as a "Posiedon Adventure" rip-off and I basically knew who was going to live and who was going to die and Astrid was definitely in the "gonna die" category.

Because she's Kylie. :smile:

Honestly, to me this just proves the Doctor's best companions are played by pop stars, not comediennes. Take that, Catherine Tate!

king mob

12-17-2008, 01:25 AM

An intriguing remark. At which point, would you say the show should have been cancelled? Or, another way of phrasing it: at which point, would you say that it would have made sense to cancel?

The programme was dead & buried during Colin Baker's run; terrible Doctor, terrible scripts, scheduled against Corrie and the programme by this point had alienated the casual viewer, not to mention Michael Grade who rightfully thought the programme needed to go, or be drastically revamped.

JNT somehow managed to save the programme and get another 3 or 4 years when any other programme at the BBC would have been cancelled, regardless of how long it had been running.

Alan Lynch

12-17-2008, 06:32 AM

Because she's Kylie. :smile:

Honestly, to me this just proves the Doctor's best companions are played by pop stars, not comediennes. Take that, Catherine Tate!
Or you know, actresses. What a revolutionary thought.

thehod

12-17-2008, 06:40 AM

Do they explain why the First Doctor looks different?

Nope, in the same way they didn't ask Miss Ellie why she appeared to be a completley different person for a year.

ChrisIII

12-17-2008, 07:36 AM

I think originally Robert Holmes was going to do the Five Doctors, and explain why the First Doctor looks different. There's also no explanation of why Troughton and Pertwee look older either :).

Keep in mind there are two DVD versions of the Five Doctors out. One is the special edition with some added scenes and SFX, done around '97. The other is the original edition with the original 1983 SFX and regular editing, but with more bonus features such as a commentary by David Tennant (The original DVD has a commentary by Peter Davison and writer Terrance Dicks).

Also there are a few continuity errors involving the Second Doctor, which unfortunately become even more troublesome in the Two Doctors....causing a fanon concept that there is a missing season between "The War Games" and "Spearhead from Space".

Stressfactor

12-17-2008, 08:12 AM

I think originally Robert Holmes was going to do the Five Doctors, and explain why the First Doctor looks different. There's also no explanation of why Troughton and Pertwee look older either :).
The idea was that the First Doctor was actually going to be an android duplicate sent by the Cybermen to destroy the other incarnations of the Doctor.

Also there are a few continuity errors involving the Second Doctor, which unfortunately become even more troublesome in the Two Doctors....causing a fanon concept that there is a missing season between "The War Games" and "Spearhead from Space".
The continuity errors were pretty much caused by a cascading series of problems.

The original idea was to have each Doctor paired with a quintisential companion. Carol Ann Ford (Susan) would be paired up with the "First Doctor" (or the duplicate Doctor actually), JN-T wanted Frazer Hines (Jamie) to be paired up with Patrick Troughton, Nicholas Courtney (The Brigadier) would be paired up with Jon Pertwee, and JN-T wanted Tom Baker to be paired up with Lalla Ward but early in the planning stages news hit the tabloids about their divorce so JN-T decided to get Elisabeth Sladen instead.

Tom Baker, of course, refused to do the story so that meant JN-T had to play some mixing and matching with companions. As fate would have it, Hines couldn't get any time off from "Emmerdale" so The Brig was moved back to partner up with the Second Doctor (Which worked since Two was originally the first version of the Doctor that he had met) and Sladen was paired up with Pertwee (and she had started her time on the series as the companion during Pertwee's last season.

Then there was more problems with the Second Doctor's companions. When the final script called for phantom versions of the Doctor's former companions to appear the script had originally called for it to be Zoe (Wendy Padbury -- who was actually pregnant at the time) and Victoria (Deborah Watling). Watling ended up having a scheduling conflict and had to bow out but Hines had a weekend free so he zoomed in to film the tiny little bit as the "phantom" Jamie. It was so last minute and the part was so small that they didn't even really re-write the scene much at all and Hines essentially spoke all of Watling's lines. In the original script the way the Second Doctor was supposed to have recognized that these were phantoms was that Victoria was supposed to call Lethbridge-Stuart "Brigadier" and the Doctor was to have remembered that when Victoria met Lethbridge-Stuart he was only a Colonel and she should have had no idea he eventually became a Brigadier.

But in the end, I have to admit that I LIKE the idea of the "Season 6B Theory" as it's known since I'd like to think that at some point the Doctor went back and restored both Jamie AND Zoe's memories and that they eventually got their happy endings.

ZT4

12-17-2008, 08:16 AM

The season 6B stuff is great, Terrance Dicks used it to give fans a possible origin for The Doctor's "Psychic Paper"

Charles RB

12-17-2008, 01:40 PM

The programme was dead & buried during Colin Baker's run

Again, ratings were still steady and the show was still being watched until after the hiatus. It hadn't alienated the casual viewer, there were 7+ million viewers per ep on average.

After Grade put it on hiatus, that lost the casual viewer - ratings fell and it took a while to come back up (and it was starting to in its final year). Also, IIRC, it wasn't running against Corrie until either Trial or McCoy's debut.

JNT somehow managed to save the programme

That was down to public outcry over it and a lot of bad press for Grade.

I think originally Robert Holmes was going to do the Five Doctors

He was. Got fed up with what they were asking of him, turned it down.

They actually asked Terrence Dicks to do a treatment at the same time as getting Holmes to do one - he responded that was a shabby way to treat a writer like Holmes, and then "come to think of it, it's a shabby way to treat a writer like me!" and hung up.

Stressfactor

12-17-2008, 03:27 PM

So I've been doing these once-a-month reviews of the American editions of the "Doctor Who" DVD's for the website Broken Frontier (*cough*shameless plug*cough*) and because of the subject of this year's Doctor Who Christmas Special I've decided that December's review will be of the Patrick Troughton story "The Invasion".

As is my usual, I always re-watch the story, the commentary, and all the extras before doing a review just to both refresh my memory and to evaluate them with fresh eyes.

So I'm re-watching "The Invasion", yeah, and it gets to that scene where the big bad, Tobias Vaughn (played by the late, great Kevin Stoney) hands a gun to the hapless Professor Watkins (played by Eric Burnham) and dares Watkins to shoot him -- point blank range. It's an awesome scene in and of itself but watching it again... man... when Vaughn b***h slaps Watkins it just... wow. I mean it shows utter contempt for Watkins, it shows that he really thinks Watkins does not have the stones to pull the trigger and the way Stoney plays it... you BELIEVE every moment of it.

Weird as it may sound, I think this has become my favorite scene out of the whole serial.

Charles RB

12-17-2008, 04:51 PM

That scene is great.

When it comes to my favourite though, I'd go with the titular invasion actually starting - the entire Earth suddenly falling into a coma as the Cybermen begin marching in occupation in London and that creepy alien sound plays. When it comes to cliffhanger alien conquests in Doctor Who, I can't think of an equal to it.

king mob

12-17-2008, 07:25 PM

Again, ratings were still steady and the show was still being watched until after the hiatus. It hadn't alienated the casual viewer, there were 7+ million viewers per ep on average.

Which in today's multi-channel age is great, (not to mention what the programme gets on average now) but when stuck up against Corrie and that's getting 20 million then it's being sent out to die.

After Grade put it on hiatus, that lost the casual viewer - ratings fell and it took a while to come back up (and it was starting to in its final year). Also, IIRC, it wasn't running against Corrie until either Trial or McCoy's debut.

The casual viewer started to drift after Davison due to the sheer hostility toward Colin Baker at the time, partly driven by the redtops who hated the look. The fact the programme found itself mired in continuity and script quality died never helped.

That was down to public outcry over it and a lot of bad press for Grade.

The Sun launched a save Who campaign but if JNT hadn't been willing to carry on producing the programme then it would have died. He was the only person in any postiiton of power in the BBC at the time who thought the show still had a place in what was a changing landscape for telly.

The 'hardcore fans' were increasingly fickle as they gained a control over the programme they never should have, this appreance of Ian Levine (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nhmDtETW2kU)on Did You See sums it all up.

Charles RB

12-18-2008, 08:34 AM

The casual viewer started to drift after Davison due to the sheer hostility toward Colin Baker at the time, partly driven by the redtops who hated the look. The fact the programme found itself mired in continuity and script quality died never helped.

The continuity mire started during Davison though - if that drove casual viewers off, they should've been gone by the time The Five Doctors started. (And over seven million can't all be hardcore fans)

The Sun launched a save Who campaign but if JNT hadn't been willing to carry on producing the programme then it would have died.

He himself has cited press and fan reaction as being the big push though. He doesn't seem to have been that aggressive a figure in pushing for stuff. (The linked-to Did You See cites big public reaction too!)

this appreance of Ian Levine (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nhmDtETW2kU)on Did You See sums it all up.

I love how he's talking about a decline occuring over the time when he was getting involved in the series. (IIRC he'd lost much of his minor influence by 1987, which I'm sure isn't why he's suddenly hating everything JN-T ever did...)

Actually, that link shows hardcore fans moaning the show's not good anymore - doesn't sound like they've got much control over it at this point if they're unhappy with it.

king mob

12-18-2008, 11:58 AM

The continuity mire started during Davison though - if that drove casual viewers off, they should've been gone by the time The Five Doctors started. (And over seven million can't all be hardcore fans)

The contunity mire started in Baker's last series but it was bad at times during Davison's run, by the time of Colin Baker it was horrendous.

He himself has cited press and fan reaction as being the big push though. He doesn't seem to have been that aggressive a figure in pushing for stuff. (The linked-to Did You See cites big public reaction too!)

He does but the simple truth is by 84/85 Who was an embaressment in the BBC & it was only JNT who had any real belief in the programme.

I love how he's talking about a decline occuring over the time when he was getting involved in the series. (IIRC he'd lost much of his minor influence by 1987, which I'm sure isn't why he's suddenly hating everything JN-T ever did...)

By 87 Levine was off the programme which does tie into the gradual improvement during the latter McCoy years. He still complains that had JNT listened to him then the programme would have never been cancelled.

Actually, that link shows hardcore fans moaning the show's not good anymore - doesn't sound like they've got much control over it at this point if they're unhappy with it.

It was an odd time: Levine had lost much of his influence but still had some sway over JNT, who by this time seemed weary trying to defend everything he did, regardless of it being a good or bad decision. The last years of Who are a prime example of the fanboy moaning about the subject of their love regardless because if the programme makers would get it right if they only listened to them!

Fast forward nearly 20 years and Levine is still moaning that the programme isn't 'his' version of Who....

Charles RB

12-18-2008, 12:40 PM

The contunity mire started in Baker's last series but it was bad at times during Davison's run, by the time of Colin Baker it was horrendous.

Now I've only seen three of Baker's last-year eps, but I don't remember there being much of a continuity mire in them. Don't recall that much in Mark Of The Rani or The Two Doctors either - hell, Two Doctors indicates a lack of concern for continuity by having Troughton working for the Time Lords!

OTOH, I know Attack Of The Cybermen is infamous for being full of it, to the extent of re-using an actor from Tomb Of The Cybermen to play a Cyber-Controller when you can't see who it is under the costume. That's pretty bad.

He does but the simple truth is by 84/85 Who was an embaressment in the BBC

That's true, cast and crew statements often mention this. They've debated on whether it should've been though; Colin Baker's got open contempt for Grade saying the show got complacent, saying that's just a way of having to give a real answer. (And he has a point - new writers kept coming in, there were constant attempts to draw in press & audience attention, Fifth and Sixth Doctors were deliberate attempts at being different. How well it worked is a seperate debate)

By 87 Levine was off the programme which does tie into the gradual improvement during the latter McCoy years. He still complains that had JNT listened to him then the programme would have never been cancelled.

Does he?! Oh dear. :biggrin:

(The DWM "In Their Own Words" mags have one crew member recounting the time Graham Williams was told Ian was on the line, and responding "Oh God! Tell him I'm not in!"...)

Stressfactor

12-18-2008, 01:35 PM

Colin Baker has also been vocal about the fact that he HATED the costume -- it wasn't the direction he wanted to go in at all -- and the fact that Baker wanted to have the Doctor warm up a lot faster instead of staying an insufferable, arrogant rat for so long.

Still, I don't know if I would go so far as to say that the show should have been cancelled completely either at the end of Tom Baker's run or at the end of Peter Davison's run but I DO think it would have been well for it to have taken a hiatus of a year or two. The problem with the hiatuses that it DID take was that those were of the "You're all about to be possibly out of work" variety -- which only tends to make people upset and desperate.

If the show had been reassured "You're only taking a year or two year break and if you want to come back then you're more than welcome" I think the 'rest' would have done them good and things might not have gotten so ugly as they did.

Charles RB

12-18-2008, 01:51 PM

Colin Baker has also been vocal about the fact that he HATED the costume

One quote was "the best thing about wearing the costume was that I didn't have to look at it"!

I DO think it would have been well for it to have taken a hiatus of a year or two. The problem with the hiatuses that it DID take was that those were of the "You're all about to be possibly out of work" variety -- which only tends to make people upset and desperate.

Yeah, the Baker hiatus might have helped boost the show if it didn't leave everyone wondering about their money and outright depress JN-T and Saward. Trial's plot started being written up before they even knew if the show was coming back simply because Saward got bored. If it'd been a hiatus like the current one, we could've gotten stuff like Cartmel years earlier and with more focus at the start.

Ontir

12-19-2008, 12:33 AM

Now I've only seen three of Baker's last-year eps, but I don't remember there being much of a continuity mire in them. Don't recall that much in Mark Of The Rani or The Two Doctors either - hell, Two Doctors indicates a lack of concern for continuity by having Troughton working for the Time Lords!

There was another discussion of this particular episode and the "Season 6b" phenomenon. Apparently there's long been a theory of a gap between "the War Games" and the arrival of John Pertwee's "Doctor" in "the 1980's." During this gap, the Doctor was to have worked for the Celestial Intervention Agency (CIA) for a period of time. A further hint of this is when the Doctor (Tom Baker) and Sarah Jane come across "the Old Control Room" with its wood panels. One of the things that Sarah Jane finds is Troughton's recorder, and the Doctor talks about how he stopped using this control room because he couldn't control where the TARDIS went.

king mob

12-19-2008, 04:58 AM

That's true, cast and crew statements often mention this. They've debated on whether it should've been though; Colin Baker's got open contempt for Grade saying the show got complacent, saying that's just a way of having to give a real answer. (And he has a point - new writers kept coming in, there were constant attempts to draw in press & audience attention, Fifth and Sixth Doctors were deliberate attempts at being different. How well it worked is a seperate debate)

The Colin Baker era was a disaster for all concerned but by then Michael Grade was openly hostile to the programme and wanted it cancelled, or at best farmed off to the children's department. Once Grade had installed his own people at the BBC and after proving himself with Eastenders, he could nearly get away with cancelling a well-loved, if not as popular as it was programme such as Who.

The constant stream of new writers, many of which were either rubbish or working to ridiculous deadlines and restrictions ment a severe lack in quality from Davison's last year to Colin Baker's first full year. The tensions between JNT and Eric Saward apparently played a huge part as both had different ideas as to how the programme should go forward.

(The DWM "In Their Own Words" mags have one crew member recounting the time Graham Williams was told Ian was on the line, and responding "Oh God! Tell him I'm not in!"...)

Levine was a pain in the Who production office long before that, but he was matey with JNT and although Levine should be applauded for saving some classic Who serials, he'll be best remembered as portrayed by Peter Kay in Love & Monsters.

king mob

12-19-2008, 05:02 AM

Colin Baker has also been vocal about the fact that he HATED the costume -- it wasn't the direction he wanted to go in at all -- and the fact that Baker wanted to have the Doctor warm up a lot faster instead of staying an insufferable, arrogant rat for so long.

The hostility toward Baker started as soon as he appeared in the press in that ridiculous outfit. It meant that he had a huge task to succeed Davison, who was a popular and successful Doctor.

king mob

12-19-2008, 05:10 AM

Yeah, the Baker hiatus might have helped boost the show if it didn't leave everyone wondering about their money and outright depress JN-T and Saward. Trial's plot started being written up before they even knew if the show was coming back simply because Saward got bored. If it'd been a hiatus like the current one, we could've gotten stuff like Cartmel years earlier and with more focus at the start.

By 85 the only real work the BBC special effects department were getting was Who, so you had an entire department essentially out of work while Who had it's imposed hiatus.

In retrospect that was probably a good time to let the programme have a long rest rather than watch it struggle on for a few years more before it finally got conacelled.

Stressfactor

12-19-2008, 07:34 AM

The hostility toward Baker started as soon as he appeared in the press in that ridiculous outfit. It meant that he had a huge task to succeed Davison, who was a popular and successful Doctor.
I think it's on the "Time Flight" DVD where there is an interview with Janet Fielding and she complains about the costumes JN-T forced on her and she remarks something along the lines of "This was a guy who wore Hawaiian shirts all the time."

I think that goes a long way towards explaining the costume in C. Baker's era.

Hell, T. Baker apparently didn't care for the maroon nightmare that JN-T thrust upon him in his last season.

I'd seen some of C. Baker's stuff years ago on TV but it wasn't until I started watching stuff on the remastered DVD's that the picture was sharp enough to realize the true horror of that costume... I mean, the fact that it was a patchwork, mish-mash of different prints and colors was bad enough but I had always thought that they at least used the same FABRIC for all of it but no -- On the DVD's in some of the close-ups it is obvious that they actually used different fabric swatches and just sewed them together like Frankenstien's monster built from different body parts! That's just... too hideous.

Charles RB

12-19-2008, 08:25 AM

There was another discussion of this particular episode and the "Season 6b" phenomenon. Apparently there's long been a theory of a gap between "the War Games" and the arrival of John Pertwee's "Doctor" in "the 1980's."

Yeah, it was The Two Doctors and its continuity flaw that led to this theory. Terrence Dicks canonised it in his BBC Who books. (Or semi-canonised, depending on how you view the books)

Michael Grade was openly hostile to the programme and wanted it cancelled, or at best farmed off to the children's department.

There's that rumour that it was Colin Baker specifically he didn't like and wanted rid of, cos Colin had a previous relationship with Grade's wife - I think Colin himself doesn't buy it though, IIRC.

The tensions between JNT and Eric Saward apparently played a huge part as both had different ideas as to how the programme should go forward.

Yeah, they clashed a lot as time went on - especially in Trial, where Saward has openly said he was fed up with everything.

although Levine should be applauded for saving some classic Who serials, he'll be best remembered as portrayed by Peter Kay in Love & Monsters.

I heard the theory that Love & Monsters is doing that. Course if I look at the episode as a metaphor for 80s Who fandom, I then go "hmm, all the original LINDA are photogenic slim people and things are ruined because a fat guy joins, that's a bit dodgy isn't it?".

TCJohnson

12-19-2008, 09:15 AM

Still, I don't know if I would go so far as to say that the show should have been cancelled completely either at the end of Tom Baker's run or at the end of Peter Davison's run but I DO think it would have been well for it to have taken a hiatus of a year or two. The problem with the hiatuses that it DID take was that those were of the "You're all about to be possibly out of work" variety -- which only tends to make people upset and desperate.

I don't think it should have been cancelled but I think they should have sacked JN-T.

What made the show last so long is that through the years it kept re-inventing itself. Every so often you would get a new creative team behind it and it was a different kind of show. Just like the Doctor could regenerate himself, so did the show itself.

JN-T had just stayed on for too long, and he was running out of ideas. It was getting stale and they needed somebody with fresh ideas...(and one who wasn't so insistent that Doctor Who have question marks all over his costume!!!)

The current series is doing it the right way, I believe. Russell T. Davies had his say, had a good run and is now stepping aside and somebody with new ideas (or at least new ideas about doing older things) is coming in. Let's hope that in 5 or so years Moffat has the wisdom and grace to do that.

Charles RB

12-19-2008, 09:38 AM

I don't think it should have been cancelled but I think they should have sacked JN-T.

JN-T actually tried to resign on multiple occasions, but was told nobody else wanted the job. I don't know how intensely the BBC actually looked, because I'm sure they'd have found at least one (it's a paying job after all).

JN-T had just stayed on for too long, and he was running out of ideas. It was getting stale and they needed somebody with fresh ideas...

The latter two McCoy years get quite a bit of fan love compared to Baker, which would support your argument - McCoy's term is when Andrew Cartmell came in, and by Series 25 he had a firm idea of the new stuff he wanted to do.

AlistairCrane

12-19-2008, 10:16 AM

I finally saw The Infinite Quest, which was a cute little thing. The animation was pretty good, and the story was entertaining.

Matt

12-19-2008, 02:13 PM

The latter two McCoy years get quite a bit of fan love compared to Baker, which would support your argument - McCoy's term is when Andrew Cartmell came in, and by Series 25 he had a firm idea of the new stuff he wanted to do.

I regard the later McCoy stories simply as some the best Who ever made, which is quite a feat since the first stories you could regard as some as the worst.

Charles RB

12-19-2008, 02:36 PM

Having seen all of S26, I agree. Battlefield is the weak link but that's because, as Aaronovitch has admitted, it was meant to be three episodes and there wasn't enough for four - and it still gives us two of the best Brigadier scenes ever, him forcing Mordred & Morgain to back down and him facing the Destroyer.

"I just do the best I can."

king mob

12-19-2008, 08:09 PM

There's that rumour that it was Colin Baker specifically he didn't like and wanted rid of, cos Colin had a previous relationship with Grade's wife - I think Colin himself doesn't buy it though, IIRC.

This is a pub conversation as of now.

Yeah, they clashed a lot as time went on - especially in Trial, where Saward has openly said he was fed up with everything.

Saward was a crap script editor & had a messy view of the programme compared to JNT, but he held it together for 3 years at least. He should have been a lead writer though that's due to JNT having a vastly reduced budget in terms of writers so he had to get new, unproven staff in, so Saward had to often do several different jobs at once.

I heard the theory that Love & Monsters is doing that. Course if I look at the episode as a metaphor for 80s Who fandom, I then go "hmm, all the original LINDA are photogenic slim people and things are ruined because a fat guy joins, that's a bit dodgy isn't it?".[/QUOTE]

king mob

12-19-2008, 08:14 PM

JN-T actually tried to resign on multiple occasions, but was told nobody else wanted the job. I don't know how intensely the BBC actually looked, because I'm sure they'd have found at least one (it's a paying job after all).

JNT was offered Bergerac along with Cartmel but turned it down as he hated the programme and hated Jersey. He really wanted to work in the BBC's light entertainment department or to get his hands on Casualty, neither were realistically going to happen.

As said;,JNT gets shite from fans but he kept the programme running at least 3 years longer than it should have.

The latter two McCoy years get quite a bit of fan love compared to Baker, which would support your argument - McCoy's term is when Andrew Cartmell came in, and by Series 25 he had a firm idea of the new stuff he wanted to do.

Cartmell had a strong vision for the show as opposed to Saward, but Cartmel's ideas were either diluted or poorly thought out. It was still a vast improvement over the Colin Baker years which were mainly awful.

Tadhg

12-19-2008, 08:22 PM

I was never a fan of the Cartmel Masterplan nor how it played out in the novels. But it was sheer genius compared to everything that came before and immediately after.

I still shudder to remember Death Comes to Time.

Charles RB

12-20-2008, 01:04 PM

Listening to the Warriors Of The Deep script, with Eric Saward saying how Grade spoke about how he hated Who because he went to see films like Alien and then had to watch previews of Who with its "wobbly sets and horrible effects".

"And that annoyed me because HE was in a position to IMPROVE what was on the screen! He could've sent us a barrel of money!"

ZT4

12-20-2008, 01:30 PM

JNT was offered Bergerac along with Cartmel but turned it down as he hated the programme and hated Jersey. He really wanted to work in the BBC's light entertainment department or to get his hands on Casualty, neither were realistically going to happen.

I still get the Bergerac plugs on the tail-end of the McCoy DVDs...a rib or coincidence I'm fine with, but it's still generally amusing that the series that followed DW on those particular days was the one offered to JNT...like climbing the next step on the ladder

Cartmel went on to script-edit Casualty, but only for one year, then he wrote this series called "Dark Knight" or something, and I think he still provides generic linking material for other things for the BBC...jokes for Bruce Forsyth or something.

king mob

12-21-2008, 06:32 AM

king mob

12-21-2008, 06:38 AM

I still get the Bergerac plugs on the tail-end of the McCoy DVDs...a rib or coincidence I'm fine with, but it's still generally amusing that the series that followed DW on those particular days was the one offered to JNT...like climbing the next step on the ladder

Bergerac was one of the BBC's highest rated dramas, but as it was shot on location on Jersey, the production team would have to be based there for a good chunk of the year, something JNT didn't want to do. He also thought the programme was rubbish.

Cartmel went on to script-edit Casualty, but only for one year, then he wrote this series called "Dark Knight" or something, and I think he still provides generic linking material for other things for the BBC...jokes for Bruce Forsyth or something.

I'm not sure why Cartmel left Casualty after only a year. It's been one of the BBC's top programmes for years now and at the time he was on board it was approaching it's peak.

Last I heard Cartmel was working on some stuff for BBC Scotland, though I've no idea what that may have been.

Charles RB

12-21-2008, 06:48 AM

He was but the real problem with stuff like Warriors of the Deep was it's terrible script.

Watching it, I found the script worked and it was the actual production that let it down. It doesn't say in the script "everyone looks silly, especially the Myrka".

king mob

12-21-2008, 07:11 AM

Watching it, I found the script worked and it was the actual production that let it down. It doesn't say in the script "everyone looks silly, especially the Myrka".

If it did then it would be an improvement. No, it was a half-arsed script from a normally excellent telly scriptwriter, that if they'd had time to rewrite several times then it could have worked, but by then Who was under a huge amount of pressure from everywhere.

AlistairCrane

12-22-2008, 08:44 AM

Are the DW novels with David Tennant and Freema Agyeman on the cover considered canon? Same question with the Torchwood novels.

Typo Lad

12-22-2008, 09:14 AM

Are the DW novels with David Tennant and Freema Agyeman on the cover considered canon? Same question with the Torchwood novels.
No. Neither are part of the bible.

Charles RB

12-22-2008, 09:24 AM

That's a good question. The Monsters Inside (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Monsters_Inside) and Revenge Of The Judoon (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Revenge_of_the_Judoon)have to be; the Blathereen from the former and Justicia from the latter get references in the show, and the Blathereen and plot of Revenge get mentioned in the BBC website's Captain Jack's Monster Files feature.

Stressfactor

12-22-2008, 09:35 AM

It's a bit... complicated. From what RTD has apparently said they kind of cherry pick. Some stuff is considered in-canon and some isn't and there isn't any way of knowing for certain unless it gets a reference on the show or from one of the writers or producers.

For example, RTD has said in interviews that during the Time War Romana was Lord President of Gallifrey but Romana as Lord President has only happened in the novels and the Big Finish audios so if they're going that route then that means they picked that part of things out of the audios or the novels. However, Gallifrey was also destroyed and restored in the novels (I think) during Romana's tenure and THAT part of the story ISN'T canon.

Charles RB

12-22-2008, 09:48 AM

I heard somewhere that he said all the audios are canons, but this might be hearsay.

The Doctor Who Magazine strips could also be totally canon, because Russell asked them to do the Eight Doctor's regeneration there (revealed in the fourth 8th Doc trade paperback; they ended up turning it down). He also gave a shout-out to a back-up strip written by Alan Moore in 1980 in his Time War description, the big nerd!

Stressfactor

12-22-2008, 10:37 AM

Well, it's strange but many of the writers DO seem to be fond of the audios -- after all, they liberally borrowed from, what was it now? "Spare Parts" -- I think that was an Eighth Doctor story and "Jubilee" -- that one was either an Eighth or a Sixth I think and now they're borrowing from "The One Doctor" -- which I KNOW was a Sixth Doctor story.

Although I still think it's a bit cheat-y I guess it says something to the quality of Big Finish's audios that the TV writers are tapping them so heavily for stories.

Ontir

12-22-2008, 11:23 AM

Ontir

12-22-2008, 11:42 AM

(from imdb.com)
21 December 2008 11:53 PM, PST

Doctor Who star David Tennant is keen for the cult TV show to be turned into a musical - because he loves "a song and a dance."

The Scottish actor is adamant the sci-fi programme would easily translate to the stage, but would prefer to keep a musical version on TV screens as it would be difficult to find the time for a long-running live production.

He says, "Doctor Who: The Musical has been mentioned. I would be up for it. I love a song and a dance. The thing about a musical is you have to commit for a year and a half and it's eight times a week."

Tennant was recently forced to pull out of his run in a London production of Shakespeare's Hamlet due to a back injury.

rick

12-22-2008, 11:46 AM

Three days, three days, three days. :smile:

Ontir

12-22-2008, 12:08 PM

Great googly moogly, you're right!

I'm so out of it this Christmas I didn't even realize!!!

Typo Lad

12-22-2008, 12:09 PM

Three days, three days, three days. :smile:
Four, for me. Takes a while to pull it off the magic crystal radio set.

Stressfactor

12-22-2008, 12:18 PM

Four, for me. Takes a while to pull it off the magic crystal radio set.

Longer for me. I usually scrounge it off of YouTube and I'm not going to have an uninterrupted long period of time with internet access to watch it.

Charles RB

12-22-2008, 12:41 PM

Well, it's strange but many of the writers DO seem to be fond of the audios -- after all, they liberally borrowed from, what was it now? "Spare Parts" -- I think that was an Eighth Doctor story and "Jubilee" -- that one was either an Eighth or a Sixth I think and now they're borrowing from "The One Doctor" -- which I KNOW was a Sixth Doctor story.

Spare Parts was a Fifth and Jubilee a Sixth. (And Spare Parts is much better than Rise Of The Cybermen)

They also use audio writers like Robert Shearman and got Ian Briggs to do Daleks because he'd done them for the audios.

Stressfactor

12-22-2008, 01:58 PM

Spare Parts was a Fifth and Jubilee a Sixth. (And Spare Parts is much better than Rise Of The Cybermen)

They also use audio writers like Robert Shearman and got Ian Briggs to do Daleks because he'd done them for the audios.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I'm not as 'up' on the audios as I am the regular episodes. I keep meaning to buy some of the Big Finish stuff but they can be tricky and 'spensive to get here in the US.

I actually LOVE old radio dramas (God blass "Radio Spirits") so those among you who are Brits don't know how lucky you are that the art form is still alive and kicking over there. Here in the US it died a sad death a long time ago.

ALTHOUGH I have found several (free) fan audio site on the internet and damn if these people don't do an AMAZING job with what I must assume are limited resources. The human race really CAN be quite clever when it wants to.

Ontir

12-22-2008, 03:04 PM

rick

12-22-2008, 03:08 PM

Four, for me. Takes a while to pull it off the magic crystal radio set.

I've always been pretty lucky with same day access on the Christmas specials.

Captain Jim

12-22-2008, 03:58 PM

I hope somebody puts it on You Tube.

Charles RB

12-22-2008, 04:40 PM

I keep meaning to buy some of the Big Finish stuff but they can be tricky and 'spensive to get here in the US.

You can buy downloads off them from the BF website now.

king mob

12-22-2008, 06:07 PM

I hope somebody puts it on You Tube.

It won't last long, the BBC are hard on illegal uploads on Youtube.

Captain Jim

12-22-2008, 07:44 PM

It won't last long, the BBC are hard on illegal uploads on Youtube.

That's where I first saw Journey's End and, as of a week or so ago, it was still there.

Paul McEnery

12-22-2008, 08:16 PM

Are the DW novels with David Tennant and Freema Agyeman on the cover considered canon? Same question with the Torchwood novels.

Why would it matter?

Treqqor

12-22-2008, 08:22 PM

Tobias March

12-22-2008, 08:27 PM

Interesting news, with Robert Carlyle having been rumoured as one of the top contenders for the next Doctor, but no longer available because of Stargate.

RTD doesn't seem to be too happy, though, this could be taken out of context quite easily and he may just be playing.

http://www.gateworld.net/news/2008/12/idoctor_whoi_producer_doesnt_car.shtml

Heheheh

"Stargate, can you believe it?" Davies said. "That was a surprise. Has his agent watched it?"

I also love the indignant tone of the article.

Hey Stargate Fans! Your show sucks!! :evilsmile:

Stressfactor

12-22-2008, 08:39 PM

That's where I first saw Journey's End and, as of a week or so ago, it was still there.
It seems to run in cycles. The BBC will go through a round of crack downs and everyone is "good" for a while but then stuff starts creeping back on.

The more successful people are the ones who either hide the episodes under codes or create fake names. For example, one guy posted up the entiredy of series four and had it up for months after the series ended all just by coding the episodes: S4E1, S4E2, etc. Another guy put up tons of Classic Who stories by making up names based on the real stories -- for example "Empty Square" in place of "Full Circle". Sure, it makes the stuff harder to find by the BBC but it also means fans have to get creative in their searching.

AlistairCrane

12-22-2008, 08:48 PM

Why would it matter?

Cuz I'm not going to buy a DW/TW novel if it's not canon.

That's why it matters.

Cyke

12-23-2008, 02:01 AM

Cuz I'm not going to buy a DW/TW novel if it's not canon.

That's why it matters.

There's personal canon, though: basically, what you want to believe is canon is canon, as long as you don't force that view upon anyone else. You can discuss your views, sure, but you can't shove yours over anyone else's. And despite all those differences, Doctor Who fans tend to be pretty open minded in these discussions.

The BBC and different production teams don't necessarily say "this happened, but this didn't," to allow the fans to have their own opinions. Basically, anyone has equal right to declare a novel, comic, audio play, or even episodes (from "Fear Her" to "Blink" in terms of quality) as non-canon for their own enjoyment of the franchise. On the same token, there were quite a few Doctor Who fans who found the first season of Torchwood to be so bad that they didn't consider it part of the canon. Its all a matter of opinion, and your opinion is just as valid (or invalid) as anyone else's.

My favorite example is Marvel UK's Doctor Who adventures. Most fans don't consider them canon because they're all over the place and showcase Marvel characters. I myself define them as canon simply because I'm tickled by the idea of the Doctor saving Franklin Richards' life and outwitting Death's Head, who in turn defeated Iron Man and the Fantastic Four.

So basically, the issue of canon doesn't really matter because it's left up to the minds of each and every individual fan. And really, there's nothing more Doctor Who-ish than the idea of 1 billion minds (fans) making 1 billion realities for the Doctor.

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Canon

king mob

12-23-2008, 05:20 AM

Interesting news, with Robert Carlyle having been rumoured as one of the top contenders for the next Doctor, but no longer available because of Stargate.

RTD doesn't seem to be too happy, though, this could be taken out of context quite easily and he may just be playing.

http://www.gateworld.net/news/2008/12/idoctor_whoi_producer_doesnt_car.shtml

RTD is clearly taking the piss and it's blatently obvious that Carlyle is doing Stargate for the money. Carlyle seems to have ruled himself out the running a while ago due to the rather punishing shcedule that Who has.

king mob

12-23-2008, 05:23 AM

It seems to run in cycles. The BBC will go through a round of crack downs and everyone is "good" for a while but then stuff starts creeping back on.

They're especially tight on uploads just after a new programme has been broadcast. I'm sure the Criggy special will be no exception.

The more successful people are the ones who either hide the episodes under codes or create fake names. For example, one guy posted up the entiredy of series four and had it up for months after the series ended all just by coding the episodes: S4E1, S4E2, etc. Another guy put up tons of Classic Who stories by making up names based on the real stories -- for example "Empty Square" in place of "Full Circle". Sure, it makes the stuff harder to find by the BBC but it also means fans have to get creative in their searching.

It's worth searching for Who on Youtube as there's plenty of gems out there to find, but as Stress says here, you do need to search really, really hard at times.

king mob

12-23-2008, 05:29 AM

There's personal canon, though: basically, what you want to believe is canon is canon, as long as you don't force that view upon anyone else. You can discuss your views, sure, but you can't shove yours over anyone else's. And despite all those differences, Doctor Who fans tend to be pretty open minded in these discussions.

The whole subject of 'canon' was never an issue in regards to Who until the early 80's when Who fandom started discussing whether things like the TV21 Dalek comic strips were 'canon'.

The BBC and different production teams don't necessarily say "this happened, but this didn't," to allow the fans to have their own opinions.

There was a point during JNT's era when the whole 'canon' debate seeped onto the programme, but that's mainly the blame of Ian Levine.
So basically, the issue of canon doesn't really matter because it's left up to the minds of each and every individual fan. And really, there's nothing more Doctor Who-ish than the idea of 1 billion minds (fans) making 1 billion realities for the Doctor.

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Canon

Indeed. It's whatever one decides they want to accept as 'canon', but in reality if it's good then the subject of 'canon' shouldn't be something to get your knickers in a twist about.

thehod

12-23-2008, 05:57 AM

It's whatever one decides they want to accept as 'canon', but in reality if it's good then the subject of 'canon' shouldn't be something to get your knickers in a twist about.

You do know that posting that comment on a comic message board, in a thread about Doctor Who wins you the "Ironic Comment Award" for 2008, don't you?

Charles RB

12-23-2008, 06:21 AM

My favorite example is Marvel UK's Doctor Who adventures. Most fans don't consider them canon because they're all over the place and showcase Marvel characters.

They showcased Death's Head, that's the only one I can think of. Abslom Daak also got nicked by the New Adventures and RTD gives the old weekly strips shout-outs in his Time War article. (And if they'd done the regeneration into the Ninth, they'd be super-canon...)

Death's Head being not only in Who comics but being responsible for the end of recurring villain Dogbolter, that causes problems. Luckily DH jumps across alternate realities anyway, so we'll just say he did that there. As did the Special Executive.

And don't think too much about DWM's Merlin being in #3 of Captain Britain And MI13...

Cyke

12-23-2008, 08:13 AM

Indeed. It's whatever one decides they want to accept as 'canon', but in reality if it's good then the subject of 'canon' shouldn't be something to get your knickers in a twist about.

You're darn right about that.

They showcased Death's Head, that's the only one I can think of. Abslom Daak also got nicked by the New Adventures and RTD gives the old weekly strips shout-outs in his Time War article. (And if they'd done the regeneration into the Ninth, they'd be super-canon...)

Death's Head being not only in Who comics but being responsible for the end of recurring villain Dogbolter, that causes problems. Luckily DH jumps across alternate realities anyway, so we'll just say he did that there. As did the Special Executive.

And don't think too much about DWM's Merlin being in #3 of Captain Britain And MI13...

They showcased Death's Head, but the Seventh Doctor was shown dropping him off on the FF HQ (Four Freedoms Plaza?). Death's Head took on the building's security system and fought the FF, but after the battle, Reed upgraded the system, which in turn managed to save Franklin. There was a theory going on at the time that the Seventh Doctor, given how manipulative he is, had planned putting Death's Head there in order to save Franklin in the long run. A little far-fetched, sure, but I'll take :)

Also, I am going by proxy here, in that as a result of the Doctor's actions (at least twice), Death's Head interacted with the rest of the Marvel U. And at the end of Death's Head's first run, the Seventh Doctor popped up and implied that all the events in his life were planned by the Doctor himself. So that's my rationale.

It sort of fits when one considers how the new series emphasizes that travel between universes was regulated when the Time Lords were around. And if Merlin is in Captain Britain, then I'm at *least* giving it a read!

king mob

12-23-2008, 08:27 AM

You do know that posting that comment on a comic message board, in a thread about Doctor Who wins you the "Ironic Comment Award" for 2008, don't you?

Hell yeah. I want a gold plated trophy to stick on my mantlepiece.

king mob

12-23-2008, 08:33 AM

I was in HMV here in Brizzle earlier to grab a few last minute Criggy pressies & noticed that not only do they have a rather stunning sale on, they also have every classic Who DVD for 8 quid each!

AlistairCrane

12-23-2008, 09:31 AM

But...I want to be told by the producers what is canon and what is not.

Typo Lad

12-23-2008, 09:40 AM

But...I want to be told by the producers what is canon and what is not.
You sir, are a true comic book fan.

Try not to be.

AlistairCrane

12-23-2008, 09:43 AM

I am going to take the same approach to DW canon that I do with the Buffyverse: unless it says "Executive Producer Russell T Davies" or "Steven Moffat" on the cover, it's not canon.

Thanks for the insight everyone!

Tik

12-23-2008, 09:51 AM

I am going to take the same approach to DW canon that I do with the Buffyverse: unless it says "Executive Producer Russell T Davies" or "Steven Moffat" on the cover, it's not canon
That doesn't make sense, because then you are disregarding the classic series as well as the EU!
But...I want to be told by the producers what is canon and what is not.
Only the BBC can declare something as being uncanonical and the BBC have never declared anything as being uncanon. So the tv series, audios, novels, and comics can all be considered a part of Whoniverse continuity because the BBC have never said they aren't.

Taking the above into account, and the fact that the new series and RTD's article on the Time War have all referenced EU books, audios, and comics, I treat everything as being "canon" because the BBC haven't said anything otherwise.

Stressfactor

12-23-2008, 10:19 AM

That doesn't make sense, because then you are disregarding the classic series as well as the EU!
Not only that, but you are cutting yourself off from some potentially enjoyable stories.

Does it matter if they're canon or not as long as they are GOOD? For example, right now IDW is running the really quite delightful "Doctor Who: The Forgotten" comic book mini-series. It's got a nice hook, an interesting story and with the last issue it just took a left turn into OMG! territory.

Coming up IDW is also going to have a Doctor Who one-shot written by Leah Moore (daughter of Alan Moore) and John Reppion and featuring art by Ben Templesmith of "30 Days of Night" fame. BEN TEMPLESMITH!!!!!

I could care LESS if it's canonical, I just want to enjoy a good story featuring the Doctor. There is a UNIVERSE of Doctor Who stories out there and just settling for one narrow little band is like.... well, like going into Baskin Robins frequently and ONLY ever ordering chocolate or vanilla ice cream. I mean, come on! There's mint chocolate chip, bubble gum, stawberry and there are SPRINKLES too!

Stressfactor

12-23-2008, 10:20 AM

I was in HMV here in Brizzle earlier to grab a few last minute Criggy pressies & noticed that not only do they have a rather stunning sale on, they also have every classic Who DVD for 8 quid each!

I hate you so much right now. Even though I'm in America and there is a crippling exchange rate I still hate you so much.

Charles RB

12-23-2008, 10:47 AM

They showcased Death's Head, but the Seventh Doctor was shown dropping him off on the FF HQ (Four Freedoms Plaza?)

True, but that was in Death's Head's title rather than the Doctor's. So I can pretend this is dimensional travel as the Doctor wanted rid of DH.

I try not to think about how that story means Dragon's Claws are part of the Whoniverse...

I am going to take the same approach to DW canon that I do with the Buffyverse: unless it says "Executive Producer Russell T Davies" or "Steven Moffat" on the cover, it's not canon.

...so the spin-off stuff that was canon by dint of mention in the host series are still not canon because RTD didn't stamp his name on them?

As is, he's going to have oversight over all the Ninth/Tenth Doc books.

Cyke

12-23-2008, 11:51 AM

True, but that was in Death's Head's title rather than the Doctor's. So I can pretend this is dimensional travel as the Doctor wanted rid of DH.

I try not to think about how that story means Dragon's Claws are part of the Whoniverse...

I think the Marvel UK line outright said that the normal Whoniverse was a separate reality from most Marvel universes, so it would definitely be dimensional travel. In a way the new series really opened the door for its own multiverse thanks to the Doctor's explanation of how the Time Lords interacted with other universes; basically, much of S2 was RTD saying "Whatever you want in the past counts today." In my mind, I'd love to imagine that the Who Multiverse intersects with the Marvel Multiverse on the very tips of their borders (and, by extension, Marvel with the DC Multiverse. Thank you, JLAvengers).

ChrisIII

12-23-2008, 11:59 AM

I find canon arguments kind of silly myself. As long as it's officially licensed I don't see any problem with it...

Stressfactor

12-23-2008, 12:15 PM

Well, the idea of a Doctor Who multiverse goes back all the way to "Inferno" actually.

Cyke

12-23-2008, 12:25 PM

Well, the idea of a Doctor Who multiverse goes back all the way to "Inferno" actually.

Sure, but it wasn't truly and fully expanded upon until just recently. When Inferno was made, there wasn't an expansive list of audio and novels and source books and comics and the like. As King Mob pointed out, the issue of "canon" never really rose up until well after Inferno. Now that we the fans do have a huge library to choose from, S2 can be seen as something of a commentary on the evolved fan culture, that anything we want can count.

An idea like the one that the Gallifrey Chronicles postulated, that there were actually three possible Ninth Doctors (which could be Eccleston, Richard Grant from Scream of the Shalka, and Rowan Atkinson from Curse of the Fatal Death), likely wouldn't have been conceived at around the time of Inferno, when the franchise was mostly relegated to just television.

Ontir

12-23-2008, 12:30 PM

But...I want to be told by the producers what is canon and what is not.

If details from a book are utilized in an episode, those specific details, but not necessarily the entire story, are canon. Until it's in a show, it's a nice story, but don't expect the producers to hold themselves to it. In fact they've said that because the Doctor travels through time, he is constantly re-working history, so there can't be any inconsistencies. Continuity is what they say it is, in the story you're watching.

Captain Jim

12-23-2008, 04:04 PM

right now IDW is running the really quite delightful "Doctor Who: The Forgotten" comic book mini-series. It's got a nice hook, an interesting story and with the last issue it just took a left turn into OMG! territory.

Is that the one that has all the different Doctors in it? I've heard good things about that and am considering buying the trade when it comes out. I was hesitant at first because I picked up the first couple issues of the regular IDW Doctor Who comic and was disappointed.

AlistairCrane

12-23-2008, 04:11 PM

Does it matter if they're canon or not as long as they are GOOD?

YES!! I want the story to count in the Grand Scheme of Things. If it doesn't, colour me uninterested.

Matt

12-23-2008, 04:15 PM

Is that the one that has all the different Doctors in it? I've heard good things about that and am considering buying the trade when it comes out. I was hesitant at first because I picked up the first couple issues of the regular IDW Doctor Who comic and was disappointed.

It's a lot better than the regular comic series (which has been disappointing to say the least). I recommend it.

Cyke

12-23-2008, 04:37 PM

YES!! I want the story to count in the Grand Scheme of Things. If it doesn't, colour me uninterested.

As long as it counts in YOUR Grand Scheme of Things, then it should interest you. Enjoyability over this silly notion of "universal canon" any day.

That doesn't make sense, because then you are disregarding the classic series as well as the EU!

Only the BBC can declare something as being uncanonical and the BBC have never declared anything as being uncanon. So the tv series, audios, novels, and comics can all be considered a part of Whoniverse continuity because the BBC have never said they aren't.

Taking the above into account, and the fact that the new series and RTD's article on the Time War have all referenced EU books, audios, and comics, I treat everything as being "canon" because the BBC haven't said anything otherwise.

I love the fact that the novels are given more weight because the current writing teams tend to reference them. In any other franchise, that would be a big no-no, and under an edict of "Only if the producers' names are on it" is extremely limiting, when one considers that they didn't write the novels they reference!

Cyke

12-23-2008, 04:45 PM

Is that the one that has all the different Doctors in it? I've heard good things about that and am considering buying the trade when it comes out. I was hesitant at first because I picked up the first couple issues of the regular IDW Doctor Who comic and was disappointed.

If you care to look, I've got one hell of a spoiler for you:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/mrtonylee/comicpr/doctorwho_twopage.jpg

Ontir

12-23-2008, 04:50 PM

Cyke

12-23-2008, 05:00 PM

What the Who books need is an artist like Hitch or Charest, who can really capture the facial features of the actors. If it weren't for the clothes (and even then, Troughton?!?) I wouldn't know who they were.

Oh, fine, I'll raise you an unofficial one:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/The_Prometheus/Who/Multi-Doctor/TheDoctors.jpg

I'd just like to point out that in either image, the Third Doctor looks even more suave.

Stressfactor

12-23-2008, 05:40 PM

Oh, fine, I'll raise you an unofficial one:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/The_Prometheus/Who/Multi-Doctor/TheDoctors.jpg

I'd just like to point out that in either image, the Third Doctor looks even more suave.
Oh effin' BRILLIANT!!!!

As to the IDW "Dcotor Who: The Forgotten" -- it's actually a bit of a sad story.

Super artist Pia Guerra started out on the title after coming off of an incredibly long run on "Y: The Last Man". Because of this she wasn't as ahead of schedule as might have been more comfortable but she was still doing okay.... Until one of her best friends contracted terminal cancer.

Guerra amonst others spent a lot of time at the hospital being with this freind until she finally passed away. Of course, by this time, she had fallen behind and some other artists picked up the slack and then there was some confusion in communication between Guerra and IDW and... well... things got kinda cold and a little ugly and the result was that Guerra was basically off the book.

It's doubly sad because Guerra is well known for being a big Doctor Who fan and she really wanted to work on this project and even with the fill-in artists she also really wanted to finish the project.

WHOEVER they've got for that last two-page spread of all the Doctors... OMG WHAT did they use for reference on Troughton?!?!?! THAT is NOT the Second Doctor. Never!

Overall, though, story-wise, the mini-series has been brilliant! The first round of the regular series, written by Gary Russell was a HUGE disappointment. I don't know WHAT got into Russell because I've read some of his Who novels and he's much, much better than what he produced for the comic.

Could be worse, though, I've heard a rumor that IDW was encouraging JOHN BYRNE to pitch story ideas for the Doctor Who comic!:eek:

Ontir

12-23-2008, 05:47 PM

I'd just like to point out that in either image, the Third Doctor looks even more suave.

The art is still fugly.

Cyke

12-23-2008, 06:05 PM

WHOEVER they've got for that last two-page spread of all the Doctors... OMG WHAT did they use for reference on Troughton?!?!?! THAT is NOT the Second Doctor. Never!

And the Fifth Doctor wasn't played by Ellen DeGeneres, but I still like the spread :)

Charles RB

12-23-2008, 06:11 PM

Now that we the fans do have a huge library to choose from, S2 can be seen as something of a commentary on the evolved fan culture, that anything we want can count.

Moffat has said that thanks to time-travel, time being altered and alternate universes all being canon, everything can be canonical even if it clashes.

YES!! I want the story to count in the Grand Scheme of Things. If it doesn't, colour me uninterested.

What does that mean? The Doctor and Donna's team-up with Agatha Christie had no bearing on later eps and probably never will, does that on its own make you discount the episode?

Could be worse, though, I've heard a rumor that IDW was encouraging JOHN BYRNE to pitch story ideas for the Doctor Who comic!:eek:

Now if they got Johnny Byrne...

Stressfactor

12-23-2008, 06:21 PM

Now if they got Johnny Byrne...Isn't he dead?

Cyke

12-23-2008, 06:55 PM

Moffat has said that thanks to time-travel, time being altered and alternate universes all being canon, everything can be canonical even if it clashes.

And that's why he's the next showrunner. God bless Moffat!

AlistairCrane

12-23-2008, 09:13 PM

I just saw the Five Doctors. Question: Why do the outdoor scenes look like they're filmed differently from the indoor ones?

AlistairCrane

12-23-2008, 09:15 PM

As long as it counts in YOUR Grand Scheme of Things, then it should interest you. Enjoyability over this silly notion of "universal canon" any day.

NO. It has to be the same canon for everyone.

Cyke

12-23-2008, 09:21 PM

NO. It has to be the same canon for everyone.

Canon is the body of works which any given Doctor Who fan considers to have "really happened" within Doctor Who Universe, and differs from fan to fan.

The BBC and the various production teams have never attempted to define an official canon, unlike with some other television shows -- most notably the Star Trek franchise -- which has left fans free to hold their own opinions over what constitutes the canon of Doctor Who.

Who says? Currently, Moffat (who uses time travel as an explanation for "free-reign fan canon"), RTD ("He has been consistently careful to make it clear that he wants to make it possible for fans to consider the books canonical, or not, as they prefer; the same attitude has been taken by most of the current series writers." -- article), and the BBC (as cited above) disagree with you.

Heck, a little over two years ago, there were a legion of fans who regarded the current show as non-canon until Sarah Jane returned to the fold. And even then, they still have every right to consider the current show as non-canon anyway.

AlistairCrane

12-23-2008, 09:41 PM

Heck, a little over two years ago, there were a legion of fans who regarded the current show as non-canon until Sarah Jane returned to the fold. And even then, they still have every right to consider the current show as non-canon anyway.

No they don't. What's shown on tv is definitely, inarguably canon.

Cyke

12-23-2008, 10:07 PM

No they don't. What's shown on tv is definitely, inarguably canon.

Does that mean Dimensions in Time counts as well? After all, all the surviving Doctors at the time were in it, yet it was a crossover with a show that was set as fiction in the Whoverse. A book referenced Curse of the Fatal Death, which had its own Ninth and Tenth Doctors, how does that fit in your canon? A Fix with Sontarans? Attack of the Graske and Music of the Spheres go so far as to break the fourth wall itself, which is very much non-Doctor Who, would those count as well?

Those were all televised, but the vast majority of fans (and, for that matter, the production crews and writers themselves, despite the official production codes) take none of those as part of their own personal canon. Just because they're televised doesn't automatically mean they're "inarguably" canon.

On the same token, what about deleted scenes that were cut for time but would otherwise add something to the story or character development? They weren't televised, after all.

Green Goblin

12-24-2008, 01:55 AM

Only 1 day till the Christmas special can't wait and merry christmas

Matt

12-24-2008, 03:33 AM

Does that mean Dimensions in Time counts as well?

I believe that was explained away as a nightmare/dream the 7th Doctor had at some point.

A book referenced Curse of the Fatal Death

Which book?

Typo Lad

12-24-2008, 05:06 AM

No they don't. What's shown on tv is definitely, inarguably canon.
No.No it's not.

Canon means part of the Bible.

Charles RB

12-24-2008, 05:40 AM

Isn't he dead?

Fuck, he is. :(

They should've gotten him earlier then!

I just saw the Five Doctors. Question: Why do the outdoor scenes look like they're filmed differently from the indoor ones?

Because they were - BBC generally used film for outdoors and video for indoors for decades.

Does that mean Dimensions in Time counts as well? After all, all the surviving Doctors at the time were in it, yet it was a crossover with a show that was set as fiction in the Whoverse. A book referenced Curse of the Fatal Death, which had its own Ninth and Tenth Doctors, how does that fit in your canon? A Fix with Sontarans? Attack of the Graske and Music of the Spheres go so far as to break the fourth wall itself, which is very much non-Doctor Who, would those count as well?

Sarah Jane Adventures actually refers to Attack Of The Graske, so that could be canon! And the DWM strip Happy Deathday had two of the Doctors turning back up at Albert Square, though that turned out to be a video game. (Another DWM strip had the Eighth Doctor travel to our world, meet Tom Baker and buy the first issue of Doctor Who Weekly - now THERE'S a canon issue!)

And damn it, A Fix With The Sontarans SHOULD be canon and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise. :mad:

Charles RB

12-24-2008, 05:41 AM

No.No it's not.

Canon means part of the Bible.

You mean the show's bible or are you making a point & meaning the actual Bible?

Typo Lad

12-24-2008, 05:43 AM

You mean the show's bible or are you making a point & meaning the actual Bible?
I mean THE Bible.

I think using the term "canon" as shorthand for "series continuity" is silly.

But then, I think obsessing over series continuity is silly.

Was it good? Did you like it? Then it counts. Did you not like it? Don't count it.

king mob

12-24-2008, 06:14 AM

Sure, but it wasn't truly and fully expanded upon until just recently. When Inferno was made, there wasn't an expansive list of audio and novels and source books and comics and the like.

There was, though nowhere near the number of spin-off material we see today. Apart from the early novelisations by the likes of David Whitaker, there was the TV21 Dalek strip & a Who comic strip, plus there were the annuals that started in Hartnell's era.

I also have a series of projector sides that I inherited from my older brothers featuring Hartnell's Doctor in comic strip stories retelling Who episodes & featuring new stories. So they've been doing stories in various formats for Who that wern't 'canon' since 1963.

As King Mob pointed out, the issue of "canon" never really rose up until well after Inferno.

I have some old TV21's/TV Comic that have discussions about how the stories featuring the Doctor (Pertwee) fitted in with the programme. The reply was essentially what most of us have said: it's however you want it to fit, now go and bloody enjoy Frank Hampson's art you ungrateful bastards!

king mob

12-24-2008, 06:18 AM

I just saw the Five Doctors. Question: Why do the outdoor scenes look like they're filmed differently from the indoor ones?

As said by Charles, outdoor scenes were shot on film while interiors were shot on VT. Spearhead From Space was the only classic Who shot completely on film due to an industrial dispute at the time.

The programme (along with most BBC programmes) in it's later years moved to being shot entirely on video when it became cheaper to use tham film. The programme now is still shot on VT but is 'filmised' to make it look as if it's been shot on film.

king mob

12-24-2008, 06:24 AM

NO. It has to be the same canon for everyone.

You're being silly. The subject of 'canon' doesn't matter in the slightest and it's only becuase a section of Who fans obsess over continuity that the BBC have to address what is a way to spoil the enjoyment of what may be a good story.

It's very simple: it doesn't matter unless you really are silly enough to let it matter. I like the idea that fans form their own continuity and have fun with it; it's far more entertaining than the usual comic/Star Trek/ whatever fanboy throwing a big girly fit because Wolverine wasn't drawn wearing the right costume in a flashback scene.

king mob

12-24-2008, 06:28 AM

I mean THE Bible.

I think using the term "canon" as shorthand for "series continuity" is silly.

But then, I think obsessing over series continuity is silly.

Was it good? Did you like it? Then it counts. Did you not like it? Don't count it.

And that's as simple as it should be really.

Moving on to more fun things, here's the brief trailer (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nx5lMbLEqA) for The Next Doctor that the BBC are showing all the bloody time.

Tadhg

12-24-2008, 06:42 AM

I think using the term "canon" as shorthand for "series continuity" is silly.

It isn't used that way and canon isn't used just in reference to the Bible. It's also used in reference to a collection of books considered geniune or in the case of a fictional universe, "real." Series continuity is separate from that.

Was it good? Did you like it? Then it counts. Did you not like it? Don't count it.

And how. It's really not that hard to ignore the bits you don't like and remember the things you do. Faction Paradox still exists in my little universe.

Stressfactor

12-24-2008, 07:43 AM

Agreed. I, for example, still enjoy "Scream of the Shalka" despite its faults and in my mind there is a corner of the Whoniverse out there where Richard E. Grant is the Doctor running around being snarky and bitingly sarcastic with an android version of the Master for a companion.

And on that note, since I'll be off-line for Christmas.... Happy Who-lidays to all you crazy Whovians!

Charles RB

12-24-2008, 08:06 AM

Was it good? Did you like it? Then it counts. Did you not like it? Don't count it.

That's not really possible, not when New Who likes to link everything it does to everything else. I can't discount Runaway Bride because then I'd have to discount all of Season 4 due to the presence of Donna and direct refs to Runaway Bride.

So I go for my fallback option, which is to never watch that episode ever again.

It's also used in reference to a collection of books considered geniune or in the case of a fictional universe, "real." Series continuity is separate from that.

Is it? :confused:

king mob

12-24-2008, 09:54 AM

Colin Baker is doing panto in Bath, while Bristol has the Axis of Evil that is Bobby Davro, Mickey Rooney and Michelle Collins. Take that Bath!

king mob

12-24-2008, 10:11 AM

The Next Doctor is going to be one of the highlights of BBC One's Christmas Day schedule which is possibly one of their strongest in years. The Next Doctor is broadcast at 6pm tomorrow and is about an hour long.

AlistairCrane

12-24-2008, 10:20 AM

I'm going to have to find torrents for the Next Doctor....

As for what's canon, I do think there needs to be an authority at DW/BBC who decides what counts and what doesn't. Novels shouldn't count because they're just glorified fan fiction. If it gets an official DVD release, that's the criteria to follow for what is canon and what isn't.

Typo Lad

12-24-2008, 10:30 AM

I'm going to have to find torrents for the Next Doctor....

As for what's canon, I do think there needs to be an authority at DW/BBC who decides what counts and what doesn't.

Great! We can call him the Continuity Czar!

Novels shouldn't count because they're just glorified fan fiction.

But... they're licensed. Ergo, they're "official".

If it gets an official DVD release, that's the criteria to follow for what is canon and what isn't.

No. What's "canon" is what you, yourself enjoy! Don't let anyone else tell you what does or doesn't "count".

By that logic, every Silver Age JLA issue I read doesn't "count" because of Crisis on Infinite Earths.

The novels exist. They were read. They have internal continuity. Beyond that, lay back and enjoy it.

king mob

12-24-2008, 10:37 AM

Stressfactor

12-24-2008, 10:42 AM

Novels shouldn't count because they're just glorified fan fiction.
Ummm, no, they're not. Some were written by former writers for "Doctor Who" some were written by people who would go on to write for the TV show in the future, some were written by well-known British sci-fi writers. ALL of them were chosen by BBC Books or Virgin Publishing. You don't get ANY of that without being at least a cut above "glorified fan fiction". Some of the writers may not be to everyone's taste -- some of the stories may not be to everyone's taste but each one of those authors earned their right to be there. Calling their work "glorified fan fiction" is a disservice to them.*

PLUS, at one point in time those novels were ALL fans had. PERIOD. For more than a decade there WAS no TV show so the only way people could get their fix of "Doctor Who" was to read about it.

* Not that I have anything AGAINST fan fiction -- hell, creativity is creativity and I believe almost every form of creativity should be nurtured but it takes a lot of hard work and perseverence to be a published author and ANYONE can write fan fiction.

king mob

12-24-2008, 10:43 AM

Great! We can call him the Continuity Czar!

I can imagine the Who production team trying to justify spending our money on that:

'but we need to have everything organised or it won't be any fun!!!'

Dark_Master

12-24-2008, 10:50 AM

Oh, fine, I'll raise you an unofficial one:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/The_Prometheus/Who/Multi-Doctor/TheDoctors.jpg

I'd just like to point out that in either image, the Third Doctor looks even more suave.who are the first three Doctors in that pic? (the one's on Hartnell's left)
I recognize the Shalka Doctor but have no idea who the 1st and 3rd one are :confused:

Stressfactor

12-24-2008, 11:01 AM

who are the first three Doctors in that pic? (the one's on Hartnell's left)
I recognize the Shalka Doctor but have no idea who the 1st and 3rd one are :confused:

#1 -- Rowan Atkinson who played the Doctor in the comedy charity sketch "Curse of the Fatal Death".

#2 -- The Doctor from the web-animated feature "Scream of the Shalka" -- originally voiced by Richard E. Grant.

#3 -- Peter Cushing who played the Doctor in the two feature-length "Doctor Who" movies.

Dark_Master

12-24-2008, 11:18 AM

#1 -- Rowan Atkinson who played the Doctor in the comedy charity sketch "Curse of the Fatal Death".Now I can see the resemblance but if you hadn't told me I still wouldn't be able to recognize him. Though that does make me wonder why whoever drew that didn't include the other Doctors form the sketch

ChrisIII

12-24-2008, 11:37 AM

I know I'm sort of repeating itself from a few post back, but Who "Canon" has never been solid. Like any long-running series, WHO has a lot of continuity errors or contradictions-the multiple origins and placement of the Daleks and Cybermen; the contradictory accounts of Earth's future; three different Atlantises, two different Loch Ness monsters, UNIT dating etc....

Also regarding WHO fiction being "fan" fiction, a good chunk of the new series writers have worked for the novel or audio line. RTD himself, Gareth Roberts, Mark Gatiss, Paul Cornell, Stephen Moffat, Matt Jones and a few others have all contributed to the novel line. Plus classic series writers such as Terrance Dicks, Marc Platt, Ben Aaronovich have also written novels.

Interestingly, some have criticized the new series as being just fan fiction because of the fact the novel writers are involved!

Charles RB

12-24-2008, 12:14 PM

Novels shouldn't count because they're just glorified fan fiction.

Unfortunately, as noted, some of them do.

And a bunch of Who writers have started in the novels (and audios).

Including Davies himself.

AlistairCrane

12-24-2008, 01:01 PM

By that logic, every Silver Age JLA issue I read doesn't "count" because of Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Did you even read COIE? Every Silver Age JLA issue you read was erased by COIE...they don't count anymore! That was the whole point of COIE...that's why there's a pre-Crisis and a post-Crisis.

AlistairCrane

12-24-2008, 01:02 PM

Oh lordy. You're doing a great job trying to find ways to not have fun.

What is this, Peter Pan? Continuity/canon is a serious matter and always trumps "fun".

Typo Lad

12-24-2008, 01:07 PM

Then it's published fan fiction, but it's fan fiction nonetheless. Any idiot could write that drivel. Why are you arguing with me?

For starters, as an occasional published writer, I find that a tad insulted.

It's not fan fiction if it's published. It may be poor quality fiction, but it's still fiction.

As for "any idiots" and "drivel" ... you realize that many of the plots you've enjoyed in the new series have come from the novels? And that many of the writers writing the series you love started on those novels?

Did you even read COIE? Every Silver Age JLA issue you read was erased by COIE...they don't count anymore! That was the whole point of COIE...that's why there's a pre-Crisis and a post-Crisis.

Picks up JLA Showcase.

No, pretty sure they weren't erased, It's right here. And hey, people are still reading and enjoying them.

All Crisis did was create a fake distinction that people buy into.

AlistairCrane

12-24-2008, 01:10 PM

No, pretty sure they weren't erased, It's right here. And hey, people are still reading and enjoying them.

But they don't count in the big picture of the DCU. If you lived in the DCU, those stories would never have happened. Therefore, in reading that Silver Age garbage, you're reading a story that doesn't "count" towards anything--it has no impact on the contemporary, canonical DCU. You're essentially reading an Elseworlds--it doesn't take place in the DCU proper. And that is an important distinction.

Typo Lad

12-24-2008, 01:12 PM

But they don't count in the big picture of the DCU. If you lived in the DCU, those stories would never have happened. Therefore, in reading that Silver Age garbage, you're reading a story that doesn't "count" towards anything--it has no impact on the contemporary, canonical DCU. You're essentially reading an Elseworlds--it doesn't take place in the DCU proper. And that is an important distinction.

Now I'm pretty sure you're winding me up now.

Either that, or you have such a different view of fiction that I can't even deal.

They're all as real as any other.

AlistairCrane

12-24-2008, 01:15 PM

Now I'm pretty sure you're winding me up now.

Either that, or you have such a different view of fiction that I can't even deal.

They're all as real as any other.

You must never have read a comic before, right?

Pre-Crisis shit never happened. Post-Crisis did. Enjoy the Pre-crap all you want, but it's not part of the DCU anymore. It never happened.

In order for a fully-developed fictional universe to work, there needs to be a distinction between what counts and what doesn't, and that old junk doesn't.

Matt

12-24-2008, 01:17 PM

You want to make it easy?

Follow the Star Wars model:

Novels and other sources count unless directly contradicted by the TV series.

Things like Scream of the Shalka (which some people say happened as part of the Time War against Paradox in the novels) are alternate adventures which no longer occurred.

AlistairCrane

12-24-2008, 01:20 PM

Novels and other sources count unless directly contradicted by the TV series.

But then you're taking a big risk. What if you buy a novel, and then in a couple of years, it's totally contradicted by the tv show? Then you're SOL. This is why we need continuity cops.

Typo Lad

12-24-2008, 01:20 PM

You must never have read a comic before, right?

Been collecting for decades, been writing for several more.

Pre-Crisis shit never happened. Post-Crisis did. Enjoy the Pre-crap all you want, but it's not part of the DCU anymore. It never happened.

Except when they say it did, which they do all the time.

One day Wonder Woman's a founding member of the JLA. Then she isn't. Now she is.

It's all fluid. It all depends on what the writer and editor on the project read and liked. It's all fluid.

In order for a fully-developed fictional universe to work, there needs to be a distinction between what counts and what doesn't, and that old junk doesn't.

Only if you're anal.

Typo Lad

12-24-2008, 01:21 PM

But then you're taking a big risk. What if you buy a novel, and then in a couple of years, it's totally contradicted by the tv show? Then you're SOL. This is why we need continuity cops.

What's the risk? Other than that the novel might suck. If it was good, it was good.

Charles RB

12-24-2008, 01:22 PM

Then it's published fan fiction, but it's fan fiction nonetheless. Any idiot could write that drivel.

So you must logically think any episode by Russell T Davies, Mark Gatiss, and Gareth Roberts is drivel penned by an idiot then.

Because they wrote for the books.

Novels and other sources count unless directly contradicted by the TV series.

And then we can have fun trying to work out how C19, Torchwood and the Forge all co-exist!

(Someone on Outpost Gallifrey actually did, it was great)

AlistairCrane

12-24-2008, 01:23 PM

I'm just going to ignore the novels and supplemental material and just focus on the dvds and televised episodes. If a novel warrants buying because it's referenced on the show and reading it will give me the "full story", then I'll buy it. Clearly, the fact that it's a novel and not an episode of the series means it's not that important a story and doesn't really fit into the big picture anyway. So while they may be canonical, it's like the Children in Need specials: they're part of the big picture but they don't feature anything important.

Typo Lad

12-24-2008, 01:24 PM

And then we can have fun trying to work out how C19, Torchwood and the Forge all co-exist!

(Someone on Outpost Gallifrey actually did, it was great)

Now as an intellectual enterprise, that sounds neat.

Of course, as someone who started with the new series, I don't know what the rest of those are...

AlistairCrane

12-24-2008, 01:24 PM

What's the risk? Other than that the novel might suck. If it was good, it was good.

No, I'll be out of $10-15 because the novel won't count anymore!

Typo Lad

12-24-2008, 01:25 PM

But it will. it'll count as a novel.

Enjoy things for what they are. life is more fun that way.

ChrisIII

12-24-2008, 01:29 PM

I think for the most part some of the old JLA stuff is still 'in continuity' so to speak. Just certain elements were changed or retconned.

And technically it's still canon although the universes were rearranged. Just not part of the history of whatever earth they're on now :)

Charles RB

12-24-2008, 01:34 PM

Now as an intellectual enterprise, that sounds neat.

Of course, as someone who started with the new series, I don't know what the rest of those are...

C19 and the Forge were dodgy, secret British agencies that reverse-engineered alien tech - basically, Torchwood for the Virgin books and the audios. (The guy saved himself a lot of grief by saying Department C19 was the official government name for Torchwood and so they were the same group all along...)

king mob

12-24-2008, 02:19 PM

What is this, Peter Pan? Continuity/canon is a serious matter and always trumps "fun".

You are Ian Levine & I claim my five pounds.

Matt

12-24-2008, 02:25 PM

I think continuity has it's place and can be used to help create overall story arcs/plots (sort of like the later 7th Doctor TV stories) but there is seriously no point getting your underwear in a knot about it.

On another tangent, I do like the novels for the most part. The entire Other/Loom thing was a good way of explaining a lot of otherwise weird things. The Paradox war/War in Heaven thing was pretty damn silly though.

Cyke

12-24-2008, 03:48 PM

I have a bit of catching up to do, it seems...

Which book?

The Gallifrey Chronicles, though it's never outright stated. When the book was written, there were three Ninth Doctors already made by the BBC, with Rowan Atkinson inferred by many to be the third after Eccleston and Grant.

And damn it, A Fix With The Sontarans SHOULD be canon and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise. :mad:

Them's fightin' words! Though the Doctor has taught me not to clobber anyone :)

I'm going to have to find torrents for the Next Doctor....

As for what's canon, I do think there needs to be an authority at DW/BBC who decides what counts and what doesn't. Novels shouldn't count because they're just glorified fan fiction. If it gets an official DVD release, that's the criteria to follow for what is canon and what isn't.

The BBC itself seems to have gone out of its way to NOT appoint a continuity czar, which is pretty impressive given that it's a huge cash cow for them.

I still have to ask: why do you keep going against the edicts of the man who saved and resurrected the show, the show's most acclaimed writer, and the show's parent company on the subject of "canon?" If anything, those three are the ones who decide what's canon and what's not, and if they're all saying, "If you like something or anything or everything, it's canon," then what do you do? Just go with the flow and enjoy what you want, and ultimately it'll all fit together anyway, somehow someway.

On another tangent, I do like the novels for the most part. The entire Other/Loom thing was a good way of explaining a lot of otherwise weird things. The Paradox war/War in Heaven thing was pretty damn silly though.

I know RTD's said otherwise, but I'd like to think that some of the details of the Time War really were covered in the novels already, and then retroactively adjusted for the show. It would tickle me to find that the Eighth Doctor, the least televised of all the Doctors, had arguably the biggest role in the universe's greatest war and the Doctor's overall character development simultaneously.

Did you even read COIE? Every Silver Age JLA issue you read was erased by COIE...they don't count anymore!

Pre-death Psycho Pirate, Darkseid, and Superboy Prime would like to have a word with you about that. For that matter, everyone involved in Infinite Crisis and 52 would probably disagree with you.

Basically, if something as huge as DC's history, which comfortably dwarfs DW history, can count again because of an edict of a whole team of writers and editors, why can't Doctor Who continue its own "fan-canon" policy that it's kept for decades, enforced by the BBC and various production teams?

Tik

12-24-2008, 04:04 PM

My God, man, you still don't get it!! It won't count as part of the big picture of the Dr. Who universe!
But alot of the EU expands and explains fully what the tv show hints at. It even clears up contridictions on the show.

Not to mention that the new series does reference the EU on occasion. We know that Romana was president of the Time Lords during the Time War. But how she became president and what happened to her during that presidency prior to the Time War only comes up in the audios and novels. We know that the Daleks used the weapons of the Deathsmiths of Goth in the Time War. But to know just what some of those weapons are you have to read the comic strip. The audio Apocalypse Element is refered to as an escalation towards the Time War between the Time Lords and Daleks. Etc.

The Ninth Doctor episode Boom Town directly references the Ninth Doctor novel The Monsters Inside.

The closest the BBC have ever come to saying something about canon is stating in a contract that the New Adventures books were 'the official continuation' of Doctor Who when the classic series ended.

If you truely want the big picture of Doctor Who you have to read/listen to the EU.

This site (http://meshyfish.com/~roo/docwho1.html) explains alot of the Whoniverse from ALL sources, clearly labelling which source it comes from via a colour code. It's mostly a timeline, although it also goes into Time Lord and Dalek cultures. You may find it intresting, you may not *shrugs*. However, it does showcase just how much is explained in the EU and how much you will be missing if you disregard it.

Charles RB

12-24-2008, 04:32 PM

The BBC itself seems to have gone out of its way to NOT appoint a continuity czar

Considering most of the crew are Who fans and we have the Internet, it's not like they need one. Want to check something about the Ice Warriors? Piece of piss, takes five minutes and no need to spend more money.

Typo Lad

12-24-2008, 04:51 PM

C19 and the Forge were dodgy, secret British agencies that reverse-engineered alien tech - basically, Torchwood for the Virgin books and the audios. (The guy saved himself a lot of grief by saying Department C19 was the official government name for Torchwood and so they were the same group all along...)

Makes sense.

I like the face that, due to Time Travel and all, Torchwood may have not evne existed until the Doctor went back in time, caused it, and then it was there all along.

As opposed to S.W.O.R.D. suddenly showing up in the MU, you know?

Charles RB

12-24-2008, 04:54 PM

As opposed to S.W.O.R.D. suddenly showing up in the MU, you know?

And A.R.M.O.R. .

Though that one's meant to be secret so I'll give it a break. (Marvel Universe goes through governmental agencies like I go through socks, Britain alone's had six...)

Typo Lad

12-24-2008, 05:01 PM

Wait, what's A.R.M.O.R?

I liked WHO better than MI6.

Charles RB

12-24-2008, 05:08 PM

Alternate Reality Monitoring and Operational Response Agency (which should be ARMORA really...) - Fred van Lente created it for Marvel Zombies 3. Portal (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Charles_Little_Sky_(Earth-616)) works as its director, it has a high-tech underground base that monitors alternate realities, and has Morbius & Jocasta as agents.

(I didn't even know its director was a pre-existing character, I thought Lente had made him up.)

SUPERECWFAN1

12-24-2008, 05:23 PM

Has the Doctor Who X-Mas special aired yet ?

rick

12-24-2008, 05:31 PM

Has the Doctor Who X-Mas special aired yet ?

Not until Christmas Night.

Matt

12-24-2008, 11:26 PM

Makes sense.

I like the face that, due to Time Travel and all, Torchwood may have not evne existed until the Doctor went back in time, caused it, and then it was there all along.

A mistake on the Doctor's part then, the less we see of Torchwood ... the better.

Ontir

12-24-2008, 11:39 PM

I like the face that, due to Time Travel and all, Torchwood may have not evne existed until the Doctor went back in time, caused it, and then it was there all along.

Right. Torchwood came into existence because the Doctor & Rose pissed Queen Victoria off. There are things I really like about Torchwood, but it's not without some real flaws, particularly the rather bleak season 2. What I'd like to see in Doctor Who, is for the Doctor to run afoul of Torchwood pre-Canary Wharf, when they were bent on capturing/destroying the Doctor.

Typo Lad

12-25-2008, 04:16 AM

Right. Torchwood came into existence because the Doctor & Rose pissed Queen Victoria off. There are things I really like about Torchwood, but it's not without some real flaws, particularly the rather bleak season 2. What I'd like to see in Doctor Who, is for the Doctor to run afoul of Torchwood pre-Canary Wharf, when they were bent on capturing/destroying the Doctor.

Now that could be fun.

One has to wonder how Torchwood,which seems to work with UNIT at times,retained that view of the Doctor in the 20th century.

Toku King

12-25-2008, 05:23 AM

I have a question: How was Torchwood ok'ed while UNIT was there? Also, if Torchwood pre-dates UNIT, how come they never appeared before?

Typo Lad

12-25-2008, 06:23 AM

I have a question: How was Torchwood ok'ed while UNIT was there? Also, if Torchwood pre-dates UNIT, how come they never appeared before?
Isn't UNIT international, wheras Torchwood is UK only?

And Torchwood never appeard before because it didn't exist until the Doctor travelled back and pissed off the Queen. Only then did it always exist.

Dark_Master

12-25-2008, 07:04 AM

Isn't UNIT international, wheras Torchwood is UK only?That is supposed to be the case, but it really hasn't been defined very well how much power Torchwood has.
I mean, Cap Jack said all the time that they were "above the government", and yet the first time that Torchwood was mentioned in The Christmas Invasion Harriet Jones was able to give them orders

Basically It has the same problem SHIELD has. It's supposed to be a UN organization but the US apparently has almost complete control over it

Doodle Bob

12-25-2008, 08:52 AM

Did you even read COIE? Every Silver Age JLA issue you read was erased by COIE...they don't count anymore! That was the whole point of COIE...that's why there's a pre-Crisis and a post-Crisis.

You realize of course that this very same argument applied to the Doctor Who universe implies that none of the adventures of Doctors 1-8 count anymore either, since the Time War erased all of that.

Charles RB

12-25-2008, 10:06 AM

One has to wonder how Torchwood,which seems to work with UNIT at times,retained that view of the Doctor in the 20th century.

Because Torchwood are idiots.

Typo Lad

12-25-2008, 10:51 AM

So it is noted, so it shall be.

Cyke

12-25-2008, 11:34 AM

Considering most of the crew are Who fans and we have the Internet, it's not like they need one. Want to check something about the Ice Warriors? Piece of piss, takes five minutes and no need to spend more money.

Yeah, good point. I think back to Star Trek and how the resident continuity geek was Ronald D. Moore, and that only worked because he was a writer and producer on the franchise anyway. He did a pretty good tab of keeping track of continuity, but really only because he volunteered for the job. It's not like Berman & Braga did that themselves. And even then, Moore stopped keeping track of continuity himself once Deep Space Nine ended, which coincides with the huge boom of Star Trek reference sites.

You realize of course that this very same argument applied to the Doctor Who universe implies that none of the adventures of Doctors 1-8 count anymore either, since the Time War erased all of that.

Oh, you ARE clever...

Captain Jim

12-25-2008, 11:44 AM

You realize of course that this very same argument applied to the Doctor Who universe implies that none of the adventures of Doctors 1-8 count anymore either, since the Time War erased all of that.

Touche! :biggrin:

king mob

12-25-2008, 12:15 PM

That was just sublime, the best Christmas special so far. RTD turned out one of his best scripts which manged to make me forget the mess he made of Journey's End.

Lots of lovely stuff; the Cybershades being half gorilla, the rather lovely Victorian setting (Gloucester doubled for Victorian London), Rosita, a great baddie, David Morrissey being generally quite marvelous & a great little scene that should have everyone here squealing with joy (fans of Paul McGann will be happy), the Ro-Busters inspired Cyber King & of course Tennant turns in a nice performance stripped of much of the 'briiiillllannnttt' stuff of series 4.

So it's a complete joy and something I'll have to watch again once I get control of the telly after Strictly Come Dancing and the new Wallace & Gromit film.

And the Easter special is called Planet of the Dead.

Toku King

12-25-2008, 12:21 PM

And Torchwood never appeard before because it didn't exist until the Doctor travelled back and pissed off the Queen. Only then did it always exist.

But then it would be a part of continuity.

Ontir

12-25-2008, 01:09 PM

Right, but retroactively so.

It's possible that it didn't exist for the pre-Time War Doctors.

Charles RB

12-25-2008, 02:17 PM

Ep didn't do much for me. Rosita should be a formidable villain but we see nothing showing why she's so generally pissed, the Cybershades don't do anything, and it's another bloody huge-devastation-that-everyone-will-forget-in-five-seconds-so-WHO-CARES ending. And Morrisey's "Doctor", while well played, comes off as a bit of a con to get the episode extra attention.

And I'm getting really sick of Murray Gold.

Charles RB

12-25-2008, 05:28 PM

Just realised, the Cybermen's big plan to conquer Earth involves the Cyberking, which travels by walking. They built the Cyberking in Britain. An island. Which has sea between it and everywhere else. And if it travelled under the sea Harrigan would drown or suffocate.

How was that meant to work?

Toku King

12-25-2008, 07:31 PM

Toku King

12-25-2008, 07:33 PM

Finally saw "The Next Doctor".

I loved it! Great episode that really takes the Doctor back to the more classic and fun type of story that went on pre-Season 4. The Cybermen were great as always. My only issues, though, were that the Cybershades were wasted and the Cybermen voices sounded odd. Besides that? Amazing episode! The best Christmas special so far. Two thumbs up!

rick

12-25-2008, 10:31 PM

While it was certainly not the deepest episode of the Doctor, but still good fun.

I don't know what I liked more, the Cyber-Ape, nasty ol' Mercy, or the giant steampunk Cyberman.

Plus the brief Doctor cameos was nice to see.

All in all this was a great way to finsh Christmas.

And blessed be the wonder that is, the Satellite Controlled Magic Crystal Radio Set.

Donald M.

12-25-2008, 11:41 PM

Plus the brief Doctor cameos was nice to see.

Yes, that was nice to see. Yet another nod to Paul McGann's tragically brief tenure as the Doctor, cruelly keeping live my no doubt fruitless hopes of seeing him appear in a multiple Doctor story some time in the future.

Cyke

12-26-2008, 04:21 AM

But then it would be a part of continuity.

The Doctor's personal timeline is different than the rest of the universe's. Just watch the show from that perspective. After all, their existence is dependent on the Tenth Doctor and no one other, earlier Doctor. Time in the Whoniverse is the farthest thing from linear as well.

Anyway, back to the Next Doctor, I agree it was better and tighter than all the other Christmas specials. It's probably a lot more lighthearted than the others because it doesn't have so much riding on it (ie, the change into Ten, the loss of Rose, the huge death toll on the Titanic).

Hattigan could've been a stronger villain, I think. The writing seemed so enamored with the idea of toying with the audience of another Doctor that Hattigan seemed left out of the mix!

Also, I love the explanation for Morrisey's Doctor, and how, while he was an unintentional fraud, he was still heroic and honorable nonetheless. THAT's a wonderful bit of characterization for humanity as well as pushing further the theme of the Doctor's effects on everyone he meets.

My only real gripe besides Hattigan: was making the Cyberking a huge mecha all that necessary? It seemed rather self-indulgent, like the team had a surplus in its special effects budget.

One last thing: MCGANN!! :)

king mob

12-26-2008, 04:32 AM

Ep didn't do much for me. Rosita should be a formidable villain but we see nothing showing why she's so generally pissed,

Rosita was Morrissey's 'Doctor's' assistant, Mercy was the villian and it's because she's pissed off at men that's her reason for being a bit of a cow. As pointed out by the women watching it last night: it's a tad anti-feminist if that's the only reason RTD could come up with to turn her into a baddie. It was fairly weak writing from RTD and one of the reasons why the first half hour needed another 5 or 10 minutes of pacing before launching into the insane last half hour.

the Cybershades don't do anything,

They did at the start, but they were fun and a good replacement for Cybermats.

and it's another bloody huge-devastation-that-everyone-will-forget-in-five-seconds-so-WHO-CARES ending.

The end was pure RTD but it was fun but as slight as I'd expect from a RTD ending on Who.

And Morrisey's "Doctor", while well played, comes off as a bit of a con to get the episode extra attention.

It wasn't a con as the 'regeneration' in series 4, I thought it was a well done stunt, although it means we'll never get a regular Morrissey Doctor which is a pity.

And I'm getting really sick of Murray Gold.

Completely agree on this one. The general consensus was that we get it's a sad scene without having Gold's music blaring over the soundtrack.

It's easier to give the Christmas specials a bit more leeway as they're on at a time when most people have been eating & drinking since early in the morning. A fun romp is fine but it's also one of the reasons the Christmas specials look shaky on a second or third viewing when the lager, gin and turkey have worn off.