Doctor Who *spoilers*

[AlistairCrane]

Meanwhile, does anyone think the show would be enhanced if the Doctor made some references to the earlier series every so often?

[Ontir]

It would be neat to do a Time War movie with McGann to give him one last hurrah, and have him regenerate into Eccleston towards the end.

I've always envisioned it that the McGann "Doctor" does whatever it was he did, and ends the Time War. He is in his TARDIS, and thinks that he's mortally wounded, only to regenerate. Eccleston's "Doctor" comes to, screaming, enraged and unable to live with what he's done, but unable to die.

[Stressfactor]

Meanwhile, does anyone think the show would be enhanced if the Doctor made some references to the earlier series every so often?

Already does. For example, in "Fires of Pompeii" the Doctor made a couple of references to the story "The Romans" (including a bit about basically being behind the burning of Rome) and in "Planet of the Ood" the Doctor mentioned a planet called the Sense Sphere -- which was the basis for the story "The Sensorites". In "The Sontaran Stratagem" there were plently of mentions of the Doctor having been on UNIT'S payroll back in the day (and apprently forgetting to formally resign) and the Doctor himself talked about UNIT being more "homespun" back then. And in the finale, of course, Davros mentioned to Sarah Jane that she was there to witness the birth of the Daleks...

Pleanty of references they're just more subtle today so that Uber fans get them as little tips of the hat but those who are newer fans won't even notice as they go whizzing by.

[Dark_Master]

Meanwhile, does anyone think the show would be enhanced if the Doctor made some references to the earlier series every so often?IMO, that would probably be the worst thing they could do.
One of the great things about the new series is that the writers made it very easy to watch it without having to know a single thing about the old series. Yes, there are references to events or characters of the old series, but they are all either so simple that they can be explained with one sentence or don't need to be explained at all.
Adding more content from the old series would just force the writers to have the characters spend more and more time explaining whats going on so everyone that hasn't seen any classic Who, and it would keep the show from moving on

Basically it would cause the same problems that comics have nowadays. They rely on old continuity so much that you have to have read the old comics to understand what the characters are talking about or do research about them, which most people don't want to do and it keeps them from even trying to read more.

[AlistairCrane]

IMO, that would probably be the worst thing they could do.
One of the great things about the new series is that the writers made it very easy to watch it without having to know a single thing about the old series. Yes, there are references to events or characters of the old series, but they are all either so simple that they can be explained with one sentence or don't need to be explained at all.
Adding more content from the old series would just force the writers to have the characters spend more and more time explaining whats going on so everyone that hasn't seen any classic Who, and it would keep the show from moving on

Basically it would cause the same problems that comics have nowadays. They rely on old continuity so much that you have to have read the old comics to understand what the characters are talking about or do research about them, which most people don't want to do and it keeps them from even trying to read more.

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about dropping a line here or there as an Easter egg to the older fans.

[Ontir]

As others have pointed out, there are tons of them, and they work as they're being done now, but I don't want the show to go to nostalgia. Moffatt won't have that, either. He's said he feels "Who" is best when new, and that he doesn't intend to visit past glories or villains, at least not to start. Evidence of that is the fact that the BBC didn't renew its lease on Nation's Daleks.

[AlistairCrane]

Question: What would happen if the Doctor went back or forward in time to a place where he might encounter a previous incarnation of himself?

[king mob]

Question: What would happen if the Doctor went back or forward in time to a place where he might encounter a previous incarnation of himself?

You'd have The Two Doctors with Pat Troughton & Colin Baker.

[Ontir]

It's happened on several occasions. As the Doctor has said, when you travel about in time as much as he does, you're bound to run into yourself now and again. The thing is, that each regeneration is a completely different person, so there isn't the causality problem. The Doctor hasn't, to my recollection, ever run into the exact same version of himself before. That could be disastrous, and I think the cloister bells would alert him to it.

[Matt]

Even after four series of the new show, the interior design still hasn't grown on me.

I find myself wishing for a return to something like was in the 1996 movie (which was generally a very bad movie but the interior TARDIS design was fantastic).

[king mob]

Evidence of that is the fact that the BBC didn't renew its lease on Nation's Daleks.

They apparently still retain the option but Moffatt wants to build up a new set of monsters to scare kids with, plus it seems the Nation estate were demanding more and more money from an increasingly cash strapped BBC.

[Stressfactor]

Even after four series of the new show, the interior design still hasn't grown on me.

I find myself wishing for a return to something like was in the 1996 movie (which was generally a very bad movie but the interior TARDIS design was fantastic).

Yeah, I rather liked that Steampunk-ish design myself.

[mattx110]

It's happened on several occasions. As the Doctor has said, when you travel about in time as much as he does, you're bound to run into yourself now and again. The thing is, that each regeneration is a completely different person, so there isn't the causality problem. The Doctor hasn't, to my recollection, ever run into the exact same version of himself before. That could be disastrous, and I think the cloister bells would alert him to it.
It's supposedly bad and sorta illegal to be in the same time and place as another version of yourself, but in extreme measure when only the Doctor can do, and it takes more than one Doctor, the Timelords were like "Ok." Without the Timelords, the rules are kinda... I think The Doctor doesn't run into himself out of fear more than anything.

[Paul McEnery]

I dont' want a Doctor that can just kick the daleks asses. I want a clever Doctor!

Perfect!

He's actually pretty good at the English accent! Not great, but decent...

I believe the correct li(n)e would have been: "I don't know; I've always felt his English accent was unconvincing". :biggrin:

[Stressfactor]

Well..... DEFINITELY "The One Doctor" influenced

[ZT4]

Thank god I managed to watch it on CIN so I could avoid the Youtube Whovian comments

Wasnt much to hit home, since for anyone who has bought RTD's book, the whole scene is in there word-for-word.

[Stressfactor]

A friend of mine just sent me this. I know, I know, fan films.... terrible acting, terrible effects, people who need to get out of their parents' basement and get lives, etc. BUT.... I find this kind of sweet. And actually cute. And pretty inventive for a bunch of young people and on some weird level I actually like THEIR Doctor Who contribution to CIN better than the official BBC contribution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhuDi3fzngI



And also.... I have WEIRD friends..... :biggrin: And if any of them are lurking.... I wouldn't have it any other way.

[AlistairCrane]

So here in Canada, there's only four more episodes left in season four...I am getting more and more excited for the return of Rose...I hope the reunion between her and the Doctor is everything I hope it will be...

[ZT4]

I'll be glad when I don't have to suffer Rose fanboyism anymore. She is not the show and never will be

[AlistairCrane]

I'll be glad when I don't have to suffer Rose fanboyism anymore. She is not the show and never will be

She is to me!! :biggrin:

[Ontir]

It's supposedly bad and sorta illegal to be in the same time and place as another version of yourself, but in extreme measure when only the Doctor can do, and it takes more than one Doctor, the Timelords were like "Ok." Without the Timelords, the rules are kinda... I think The Doctor doesn't run into himself out of fear more than anything.

I think the Time Lord rules may mean more to him now than they ever did before. He's the last and only, so whatever remains of the Time Lords, their legacy, it's all up to him. I also think that he can't run into those who were caught up in the Time War. I think the only ones he could interact with are Eccleston's and McGann's (whom I presume was the one to survive the war, then regenerate into Eccleston), and whomever is next.

[Stressfactor]

But the Doctor's already run into his 5th self.

I think Mattx110 is probably right... the Doctor probably stays out of his own way more out of fear of upsetting the balance of time. Remember.... Reavers. And if he DOES screw something up badly he doesn't have any Time Lord backup to help him out anymore.

Also, the times he DID run into himself -- with the exception of ONE -- were times when he was deliberately FORCED together. With all of time and space to travel in it really isn't likely he would run into himself. Heck, here in North America we've got the US and Canada and people don't run into each other. If I were vacationing in Vancouver I really wouldn't expect to see my next door neighbors... unless they were stalking me. So why SHOULD the Doctor expect to run into himself with all of space and time unless he did it deliberately?

[Stressfactor]

She is to me!! :biggrin:

Well, if she's ALL the show to you then you're going to have a tough row to hoe in 2009 and beyond mate.

[AlistairCrane]

Well, if she's ALL the show to you then you're going to have a tough row to hoe in 2009 and beyond mate.

I'm not necessarily going to watch anymore after the Davies/Tennant era ends.

Rose is the character I most identified with--she's human, whereas the Doctor is alien and....weird. I wouldn't have been able to handle the Doctor's journeys without a character like Rose by his side.

I'm a little sick of the sexist attitude some DW fans have toward his companions. Would you like to see a boys-only version of Doctor Who? How very...homosocial.

[Zero Hunter]

I'm not necessarily going to watch anymore after the Davies/Tennant era ends.

Rose is the character I most identified with--she's human, whereas the Doctor is alien and....weird. I wouldn't have been able to handle the Doctor's journeys without a character like Rose by his side.

I'm a little sick of the sexist attitude some DW fans have toward his companions. Would you like to see a boys-only version of Doctor Who? How very...homosocial.

I don't think it a sexist attitude really. Its just the whole thing with Rose being totaly in love with the Doctor, and right after that we got the same with Martha. I think that is why I really liked Donna so much. She was there for the adventure and not because she was in love with the Doctor.

[Ontir]

But the Doctor's already run into his 5th self.

Kinda. That wasn't strictly in continuity.

[AlistairCrane]

I don't think it a sexist attitude really. Its just the whole thing with Rose being totaly in love with the Doctor, and right after that we got the same with Martha. I think that is why I really liked Donna so much. She was there for the adventure and not because she was in love with the Doctor.

So you don't like love stories?

LAAAAAAAAAME!!!

But at least Donna wasn't a threat to Rose. She was just annoying and ugly.

[Stressfactor]

I'm not necessarily going to watch anymore after the Davies/Tennant era ends.

Rose is the character I most identified with--she's human, whereas the Doctor is alien and....weird. I wouldn't have been able to handle the Doctor's journeys without a character like Rose by his side.

I'm a little sick of the sexist attitude some DW fans have toward his companions. Would you like to see a boys-only version of Doctor Who? How very...homosocial.

Aaannnd THIS is the attitude I can't understand. I mean 40 some-odd years of the series. Ten Doctors and so many, many many WONDERFUL stories and characters and some people INSIST on locking into a box.

I mean, I really don't care for Colin Baker but even I will admit that "Vengenace on Varos" is a great series of performances and a really good story. People may have their favorites but there's something worthwhile in all of them.

[Cyke]

Kinda. That wasn't strictly in continuity.

According to Stephen Moffat, the guy who wrote it and is now the showrunner, it is indeed in continuity.

Besides, that episode is the reason why the Doctor got involved in Voyage of the Damned, so I'd say it was a pretty important episode to begin with.

[Ontir]

It's a very weird crossover though, and was presented, at least where I saw it, as an extra, not a part of the actual episode. I think they should also limit the possibility of cross-overs between Doctors, primarily because 3 are dead, and most look really friggin' old now. Either that or have the elder versions played by different actors. That "Spitting Image" (IIRC) guy does a spot-on Tom Baker, and looks more like Tom Baker's "Doctor" than Tom Baker does at this point.

[Zero Hunter]

So you don't like love stories?

LAAAAAAAAAME!!!

But at least Donna wasn't a threat to Rose. She was just annoying and ugly.

I don't mind love stories at all. It is just that it was nto handeled that well on Doctor Who I thought. maybe if they had not had Martha turn into a lovesick goof right after Rose it would nto have felt so heavy handed.

And I still say Donna was a breath of fresh air after the puppylove twins.

[Stressfactor]

It's a very weird crossover though, and was presented, at least where I saw it, as an extra, not a part of the actual episode. I think they should also limit the possibility of cross-overs between Doctors, primarily because 3 are dead, and most look really friggin' old now. Either that or have the elder versions played by different actors. That "Spitting Image" (IIRC) guy does a spot-on Tom Baker, and looks more like Tom Baker's "Doctor" than Tom Baker does at this point.

Most of the former Doctors, however, still have good voices and don't sound very old yet so perhaps the best way to do it would be animated a la that episode of Farscape....

In fact, someone else here had suggested an episode taking place inside the Doctor's mind in which he communes with all of his past incarnations. The episode could be split with the 'conscious' stuff being done live action and then the stuff where the Doctor is inside his head being done as animation with the surviving Doctors providing the voices.

Hartnell, Troughton, and Pertwee would be tricky however. I mean there are certainly voice actors who could imitate each one of the three but one wouldn't want to seem disrepectful of the dead. Perhaps the contributions of those three characters could be limited and lines of dialogue could be picked up from various performances and slotted in.

[Ontir]

Most of the former Doctors, however, still have good voices and don't sound very old yet so perhaps the best way to do it would be animated a la that episode of Farscape....

In fact, someone else here had suggested an episode taking place inside the Doctor's mind in which he communes with all of his past incarnations. The episode could be split with the 'conscious' stuff being done live action and then the stuff where the Doctor is inside his head being done as animation with the surviving Doctors providing the voices.

Hartnell, Troughton, and Pertwee would be tricky however. I mean there are certainly voice actors who could imitate each one of the three but one wouldn't want to seem disrepectful of the dead. Perhaps the contributions of those three characters could be limited and lines of dialogue could be picked up from various performances and slotted in.

I don't have PayTV, so I've not seen much of Farscape, unfortunately, and don't know about the animated ep to which you refer.

They could always "gump" them, but I'm still in favour of bringing in Richard E Grant as a younger version of the Hartnell Doctor, who is free of the beginning of the Time War.

[marshal99]

Or they could do an episode like that DS9 episode that crossover with the actual original star trek crew .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYh8Hw4F2nE
It was trippy to see an old episode from a fresh perspective. You could have the new doctor trying to stop an enemy from tampering with his own timeline so he had go back in time to an old adventure to try to stop the enemy while avoiding meeting his old self. it would be good to see an old doctor who episode updated.

[Stressfactor]

I don't have PayTV, so I've not seen much of Farscape, unfortunately, and don't know about the animated ep to which you refer.

They could always "gump" them, but I'm still in favour of bringing in Richard E Grant as a younger version of the Hartnell Doctor, who is free of the beginning of the Time War.

The episode in question was called "Revenging Angel" and in it Crighton (Ben Browder) gets knocked unconscious by D'Argo and, indeed, the blow is serious enough that Crighton ends up in a coma clinging to life. While his body fights for survival, Crighton's mind ends up in a silly, very Looney-Tunes influenced world (Crighton must have watched a lot of Road Runner/Wiley Coyote cartoons as a kid) where he must decide if he truly wants to live as well as deal with the difficulties he's been having with D'Argo in the real world.

Here's a few clips from the cartoon parts of the story. Of course, I don't think the Doctor Who version should be quite so silly but this was a hoot for anyone who grew up watching old Bugs Bunny and Company cartoons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd4KvpG58WA

P.S. -- I never saw Farscape when it was airing on cable. I was able to check the first three seasons out on DVD from my local library last January. I LOVE my local library!

[AlistairCrane]

And I still say Donna was a breath of fresh air after the puppylove twins.

And I still find her annoying, although slightly less so. I'd have a hard time believing the Doctor could have feelings for Donna after being spending so much time with the lovely Rose and Martha, so I'm glad they're not trying to build a love story between them. We all know the Doctor's heart belongs to Rose. (And the other one to Martha.:wink:)

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I agree. There really is no call for this. Everyone has their favorite Doctors and everyone has their favorite (and not so favorite) companions but I think we can all agree that no ONE person is going to make or break a series that has run for 45 years and looks to be going strong into the future.

Doctor Who is all about the variety. It not only survives change it THRIVES on change. Go ahead and name me ONE series, American or British that has been able to survive so many complete changes of casts. It has helped the series to stay forever fresh by introducing new characters and new situations that keep up with the changing times.

To quote the 2nd Doctor "Life depends on change... and renewal."

To be fair the closest America has to the constant changing of casts and all is "Law & Order". Going on 19 seasons (its a bet for the 20th) the show's longest player is Sam Waterson but the show's gotten a huge rebirth now as new young cast members have came in and shot the ratings back up !

Its the closest when you think of the change the show has.


Saturday Night Live is something else . Its survived 33 seasons and keeps going ! But its a sketch comedy show so I won't count it. :wink:

[Cyke]

It's a very weird crossover though, and was presented, at least where I saw it, as an extra, not a part of the actual episode.

It doesn't have to be a full episode to count, it just has to have the approval of the creators. The last special they had, which was between Series 1 and 2, explained why Rose was so able to handle the Doctor's regeneration in the Christmas Invasion. It also explained why the Doctor didn't go back for Jack, something that wasn't completely expanded until Series 3.

[Stony]

Keep it civil please, thank you


And call Peter O'Toole's agent.

[Cyke]

Keep it civil please, thank you

Um, did I miss a huge fight somewhere?

[Stressfactor]

Um, did I miss a huge fight somewhere?
Narrowly avoided. AlistairCrane was getting all Rah-Rah-Rose again and ZT4 was getting a bit tetchy in return.

A lot of Doctor Who forums have a tendecy to turn into bloodbaths so this one tries to police itself a little bit and nip such tendencies in the bud so that we can all enjoy our time discussing the series.

[Tadhg]

And call Peter O'Toole's agent.

If Lenny Henry isn't the new Doctor, I'll be crushed.

[rick]

A piece of friendly advice from someone who is not a moderator in any way shape or form.

Watch your tone and watch your mouth.

I know you are like being a bit over-dramatic, but this thread has far too many high ups on the board pass through it on a regular basis to where you are going to get away with the kind of garbage you posted above.

Show some respect and show a little dignity.

[rick]

As we speak I'm enjoying the Second Doctor starring in The Mind Robber.

The Doctor, along with Jamie (two of them) and Zoe (two of my all-time favorite companions), end up outside of our universe and inside the world of fiction.

It's a bit silly for the Doctor and almost pure fantasy, but it is well written, good fun and even features the Doctor fighting a chap named the Master, although he isn't the one you would tink of.

A truly enjoyable episode from the wonderful year of 1968.

[Stony]

If Lenny Henry isn't the new Doctor, I'll be crushed.

Y'know... I like the idea of a black Doctor, I do...
But it just strikes me as too gimmicky
A bit of change-for-change's-sake

Lenny needs to get busy making Anansi Boys. Playing both brothers and the dad

[Doodle Bob]

I'm a little sick of the sexist attitude some DW fans have toward his companions. Would you like to see a boys-only version of Doctor Who? How very...homosocial.

I find your use of homophobia as a weapon against those who disagree with you, particularly uncivil. You seem to fail to realize that there is nothing particularly wrong with being gay.

Your attempted use of the charge of sexism is rather bizarre. You don't seem to understand particularly what sexism actually is, since, if you did, you would then realize that assessing a female on her looks and disposition in a way that you wouldn't assess a male, is quite sexist and hence you might re-evaluate your past positions on both companions and the Doctor.

[king mob]

Narrowly avoided. AlistairCrane was getting all Rah-Rah-Rose again and ZT4 was getting a bit tetchy in return.

It was a bit handbags but it really was annoying to read after being away for a week.

A lot of Doctor Who forums have a tendecy to turn into bloodbaths so this one tries to police itself a little bit and nip such tendencies in the bud so that we can all enjoy our time discussing the series.

Indeed, it's why this is my favourite Who thread on the internet. Thankfully Stony has deleted much of the worst nonsense posted over the weekend.

[king mob]

As we speak I'm enjoying the Second Doctor starring in The Mind Robber.

The Doctor, along with Jamie (two of them) and Zoe (two of my all-time favorite companions), end up outside of our universe and inside the world of fiction.

It's a bit silly for the Doctor and almost pure fantasy, but it is well written, good fun and even features the Doctor fighting a chap named the Master, although he isn't the one you would tink of.

A truly enjoyable episode from the wonderful year of 1968.


The Mind Robber is a glorious bit of Who and a great example of how to work round problems such as budget and actors not being available.

[rick]

The Mind Robber is a glorious bit of Who and a great example of how to work round problems such as budget and actors not being available.


It really was a wonderfully fun episode and you're right, it shows what good writing and some imagination can do for a show.

[Toku King]

I find your use of homophobia as a weapon against those who disagree with you, particularly uncivil. You seem to fail to realize that there is nothing particularly wrong with being gay.

Your attempted use of the charge of sexism is rather bizarre. You don't seem to understand particularly what sexism actually is, since, if you did, you would then realize that assessing a female on her looks and disposition in a way that you wouldn't assess a male, is quite sexist and hence you might re-evaluate your past positions on both companions and the Doctor.

Besides, some of the Doctor's best companions have been guys. Jamie, Jack Harkness, Brigadier(I count him), and so on.
Then again, we also got Adric...

[Toku King]

I saw 'The Invisible Enemy' and 'The Daemons', and they both were very good.
'The Invisible Enemy' is awesome because it introduces a very original and interesting foe, along with an awesome adventure inside the Doctor's mind. Unfortunately, some parts are very confusing, but overall I love it.
'The Daemons' is considered to be one of Pertwee's best, and though while I disagree, it's still a great episode. It starts off on an interesting tone, brings back the greatness and badassedness of the Master, and even introduces a new nemesis: The Daemon, a super cool demon alien that is the inspiration for the Beast. While sometimes it gets a little odd, and you really want more interaction between the Doctor and the Master, it's still a delight and one of the better Doctor Who stories.

I would give 'The Invisible Enemy' a 4.5/5, and 'The Daemons' a 4/5. Both great stories, with 'Invisible Enemy' being one of my favorite Tom Baker stories to date.

[Ontir]

I find your use of homophobia as a weapon against those who disagree with you, particularly uncivil. You seem to fail to realize that there is nothing particularly wrong with being gay.

Your attempted use of the charge of sexism is rather bizarre. You don't seem to understand particularly what sexism actually is, since, if you did, you would then realize that assessing a female on her looks and disposition in a way that you wouldn't assess a male, is quite sexist and hence you might re-evaluate your past positions on both companions and the Doctor.

I find his use of "homosocial" bizarre.

I've posted, a couple of times, that I'd like to see the Doctor off with a male companion who wouldn't be a love interest, but instead someone who doesn't know the Doctor's "eternal" nature, and only sees him as "a mate" to hang out with, and even chase girls. Someone who would, under the auspices of seeking a good time, get them into a great deal of trouble. Someone young enough that he hasn't learned his penis isn't a compass arrow.

[Toku King]

I find his use of "homosocial" bizarre.

I've posted, a couple of times, that I'd like to see the Doctor off with a male companion who wouldn't be a love interest, but instead someone who doesn't know the Doctor's "eternal" nature, and only sees him as "a mate" to hang out with, and even chase girls. Someone who would, under the auspices of seeking a good time, get them into a great deal of trouble. Someone young enough that he hasn't learned his penis isn't a compass arrow.

And then evolve him into a companion that learns how to be a true hero.

I like it. You just have to keep him from being sleazy and annoying.

[Ontir]

And then evolve him into a companion that learns how to be a true hero.

I like it. You just have to keep him from being sleazy and annoying.

He's not too sleazy, he's just in search of the perfect woman and a great beer, and yes, over the course of his journeys he can learn to be a hero, who knows, maybe even sacrificing himself.

[Stressfactor]

I've been off-board for a couple of days since I'm moving apartments as well but I would like to apologize for my unladylike behavior and to anyone I might have offended I am sorry.

It's not an excuse but I did let my temper get the better of me and for that I am sorry as well.

Now as to the Mind Robber. I LOVE that story. I watched it last night with my buddy who has been helping me move.

The thing about the story that I adore is the fact that it really provides a challenge for the Doctor and Patrick Troughton really sells it. As the episode reaches the climax you see that the Doctor is racing to keep one step ahead and at one point he really seems at a loss. He has lost his companions, lost his TARDIS and is out of ideas and yet he will not give in to the Master -- not even to save the lives of his companions. And then he recovers when he is forced into a battle of wits and imagination.

Wonderful piece, really. And the colockwork soldiers and really, really cool!

[SUPERECWFAN1]

And I still find her annoying, although slightly less so. I'd have a hard time believing the Doctor could have feelings for Donna after being spending so much time with the lovely Rose and Martha, so I'm glad they're not trying to build a love story between them. We all know the Doctor's heart belongs to Rose. (And the other one to Martha.:wink:)

The Doctor I've always heard has no sexual feelings for anyone and instead operates on a higher level. Sure Rose loved him but he never saw her as a "Love Interest". He cared for her as a friend would. Thats how I always saw it.

A piece of friendly advice from someone who is not a moderator in any way shape or form.

Watch your tone and watch your mouth.

I know you are like being a bit over-dramatic, but this thread has far too many high ups on the board pass through it on a regular basis to where you are going to get away with the kind of garbage you posted above.

Show some respect and show a little dignity.

Well we used to have Justin and Conn check into the All-Purpose Wrestling thread when things would get outta control ! Compared to that , this thread is a Sunday picnic . :tongue:

As we speak I'm enjoying the Second Doctor starring in The Mind Robber.

The Doctor, along with Jamie (two of them) and Zoe (two of my all-time favorite companions), end up outside of our universe and inside the world of fiction.

It's a bit silly for the Doctor and almost pure fantasy, but it is well written, good fun and even features the Doctor fighting a chap named the Master, although he isn't the one you would tink of.

A truly enjoyable episode from the wonderful year of 1968.

I loved the "Mind Robber". I watched it on Youtube last year. It was great. I also loved the "Cybermen" episode with Troughton . His facial reactions and all sold me on him in that !

[king mob]

I'The Daemons' is considered to be one of Pertwee's best, and though while I disagree, it's still a great episode. It starts off on an interesting tone, brings back the greatness and badassedness of the Master, and even introduces a new nemesis: The Daemon, a super cool demon alien that is the inspiration for the Beast. While sometimes it gets a little odd, and you really want more interaction between the Doctor and the Master, it's still a delight and one of the better Doctor Who stories.



The Daemons is wonderful & it is one of the top three Pertwee stories even if it is a rip off from Quatermass & the Pit. It's everything you could want from Who-era Pertwee: UNIT, The Master, aliens in otherwise normal settings, Katy Manning and lots of Brigadier action. It's also huge unaldultared fun.

[king mob]

I've been off-board for a couple of days since I'm moving apartments as well but I would like to apologize for my unladylike behavior and to anyone I might have offended I am sorry.

It's not an excuse but I did let my temper get the better of me and for that I am sorry as well.




Blimey, everyone has been busy with moving, have you finshed unpacking or are you looking at boxes like I am?

I wouldn't worry about the other day, you were not the person causing hassle.

[Stressfactor]

Blimey, everyone has been busy with moving, have you finshed unpacking or are you looking at boxes like I am?

I wouldn't worry about the other day, you were not the person causing hassle.

I'm at the top of the moving loop I'm afraid. I moved out the first batch of boxes yesterday but the movers don't come for my furniture until this coming weekend.

I don't even want to THINK about the mess of unpacking yet.

As for the rest.... I was still a bit rude... but, then again, I'm also ginger....

[Haydn C]

I'm at the top of the moving loop I'm afraid. I moved out the first batch of boxes yesterday but the movers don't come for my furniture until this coming weekend.

I don't even want to THINK about the mess of unpacking yet.

As for the rest.... I was still a bit rude... but, then again, I'm also ginger....

And another house mover here, blimey as Mob put it. I am currently trying to find everything in the newly deposited boxes. I think the dvds are at the bottom of the pile along with ll the other important stuff.

Anyway back on topic. The Daemons, I think this would come out pretty much near the top of a lot of fans lists of their favourite stories. It is indeed a classic.

[Stressfactor]

I've watched "Ghost Light" twice now and I'm still trying to understand it.

Wow. I appreciate the incredible and daring complexity of the story as well as it's delving into themes both scientific and emotional BUT I'm starting to wonder if it may not also be emblematic of why the series ended up canned. I mean "Doctor Who" began as a children's television show and it morphed into a family show but when someone who is fairly intelligent has trouble figuring out what is going on then perhaps the series had gone to far.

I would NEVER want "Doctor Who" to be stupid but I do wonder if it also got too smart for it's own good.

[Matt]

I didn't have any problems with it.
What part are you stuck on?

I actually quite like that story and rate it as one of the best.

[Toku King]

Saw "Revelation Of The Daleks", and I really liked it. This is the only Colin Baker story that I've seen so far in which I actually like the Sixth Doctor. Davros was awesome as always, and it all came together well in the end. My only problems were that the Daleks were easy to take out, the Renegade Daleks seemed dumber than usual, and the voices were odd this time around. Besides that, it was fantastic stuff! 4/5

[Stressfactor]

I didn't have any problems with it.
What part are you stuck on?

I actually quite like that story and rate it as one of the best.

Okay, I get the parts about Ace burning down the house because her best friend was killed when she was young and she didn't know how to deal with it and she sensed something evil in the house.

I get that Light was an alien who came to Earth to catalogue the planet and then flipped out when he found that the beings evolved -- meaning that his catalogue could never be complete.

I get that "Control" was actually the control specimin in a scientific experiment (I've taken high school and college science so I remember about the scientific method and always having a control group to compare your experimental group to)

Here's where I go south:

* What caused Light to go into hibernation?
* What did Fenn-Cooper encounter that blew his mind? I mean, it seems like it was Light he encountered but Light was supposed to be in hibernation so how did Fenn-Cooper encounter him?
* Where was Fenn-Cooper when his mind got blown? At times it seems like Fenn-Cooper was on safari when it happened but if that is true then how did Light's ship get from South America or Africa or where ever to the cellars of Gabriel Chase -- a very old house? If it happened at Gabriel Chase then what was Fenn-Cooper doing there?
* What WAS Josiah? And for that matter, what was Control? I mean, yes, the evolved into a Victorian gentleman and a Victorian lady respectively but what were they to begin with? The husks Josiah left behind seemed insectoid. It also seems that Josiah and Control were not of the same alien species as Light so what were they? Where did they come from?
* If Light was so pissed off about evolution then why did he set up the experiment with Josiah and Control to begin with?
* How was Josiah able to turn Rev. Matthews into an ape?
* What happened at the end to make Josiah suddenly start devolving? I mean, it didn't seem like anything actually HAPPENED to him and yet, suddenly, he began devolving into the "control" while Control usurped his place.

[Stressfactor]

Saw "Revelation Of The Daleks", and I really liked it. This is the only Colin Baker story that I've seen so far in which I actually like the Sixth Doctor. Davros was awesome as always, and it all came together well in the end. My only problems were that the Daleks were easy to take out, the Renegade Daleks seemed dumber than usual, and the voices were odd this time around. Besides that, it was fantastic stuff! 4/5
I really intensely DISLIKED Colin Baker's Doctor (Really. Really. Disliked) until I saw "Vengeance on Varos". It's the only story where he not only didn't get on my nerves but actually seemed Doctor-y instead of a smug, superior, arrogant git.

[king mob]

I've watched "Ghost Light" twice now and I'm still trying to understand it.

Wow. I appreciate the incredible and daring complexity of the story as well as it's delving into themes both scientific and emotional BUT I'm starting to wonder if it may not also be emblematic of why the series ended up canned. I mean "Doctor Who" began as a children's television show and it morphed into a family show but when someone who is fairly intelligent has trouble figuring out what is going on then perhaps the series had gone to far.

I would NEVER want "Doctor Who" to be stupid but I do wonder if it also got too smart for it's own good.

Ghost Light is ok but it suffers from gaping holes & poor storytelling that you'd never see from the likes of Bob Holmes or Terrance Dicks. It tries really hard to be something original but falls short because of it's gaps in logic & storytelling, which is a pity really.

[Toku King]

I really intensely DISLIKED Colin Baker's Doctor (Really. Really. Disliked) until I saw "Vengeance on Varos". It's the only story where he not only didn't get on my nerves but actually seemed Doctor-y instead of a smug, superior, arrogant git.

Oh yeah, I generally hate the Sixth Doctor. He's always so rude and arrogant. Heck, in "Mark Of The Rani", the Master seemed actually nicer. I would rather hang with him than the Sixth Doctor!

[Stressfactor]

Ooooooo!!!! Accidental confirmation of the actor to play the 11th Doctor? http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3TUcXlTXfHU

:biggrin:

As I've said before.... from the few clips I've seen I've got NO problems with this.

[Captain Jim]

I hope not. I hope my comments aren't interpreted as racist or sexist, but it just seems too strange to me for the Doctor to change race or gender when he regenerates. (Have we ever even seen a black Time Lord?)

[Captain Jim]

I think they should also limit the possibility of cross-overs between Doctors, primarily because 3 are dead, and most look really friggin' old now. Either that or have the elder versions played by different actors. That "Spitting Image" (IIRC) guy does a spot-on Tom Baker, and looks more like Tom Baker's "Doctor" than Tom Baker does at this point.

I dunno. Put a wig on Tom Baker's head, I still think he'd do okay.

[Loki]

I hope not. I hope my comments aren't interpreted as racist or sexist, but it just seems too strange to me for the Doctor to change race or gender when he regenerates. (Have we ever even seen a black Time Lord?)

Yes, we have seen black Time Lords. We got a black Doctor for the first time when Lenny Henry played the part in a comedy sketch. We've also had them in the comics first (just like we got black companions in the comics first), and then in the audio plays. Moving into the show proper, we finally saw a black Time Lord in the new series in the flashback to the Master's childhood.

As to changing race, I see no problem at all - from the Doctor's point of view, it's largely only a change in his level of pigmentation, so I doubt he'd even find it worth commenting on. (Actually, I could just see the regeneration - Tennant becomes Joseph, looking like he does in this picture
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/graphics/2007/08/25/btpaterson125.jpg

His companion stutters in shock "But Doctor, you've become b...b..."

The Doctor finds a mirror, and gasps in horror - "Oh no, you're right! This is terrible. I'm BALD!!")

I can think of several excellent non-Caucasian British actors I think could make a good stab at the part.

Changing gender is another matter - it wouldn't be impossible to do, and it was done well in the comedic Curse of the Fatal Death charity sketch, but it would be a harder sell to the audience and would take a deft touch in the writing to sell it.

[berk]

Yes, we have seen black Time Lords. We got a black Doctor for the first time when Lenny Henry played the part in a comedy sketch. We've also had them in the comics first (just like we got black companions in the comics first), and then in the audio plays. Moving into the show proper, we finally saw a black Time Lord in the new series in the flashback to the Master's childhood.

As to changing race, I see no problem at all - from the Doctor's point of view, it's largely only a change in his level of pigmentation, so I doubt he'd even find it worth commenting on. (Actually, I could just see the regeneration - Tennant becomes Joseph, looking like he does in this picture
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/graphics/2007/08/25/btpaterson125.jpg

His companion stutters in shock "But Doctor, you've become b...b..."

The Doctor finds a mirror, and gasps in horror - "Oh no, you're right! This is terrible. I'm BALD!!")

I can think of several excellent non-Caucasian British actors I think could make a good stab at the part.

Changing gender is another matter - it wouldn't be impossible to do, and it was done well in the comedic Curse of the Fatal Death charity sketch, but it would be a harder sell to the audience and would take a deft touch in the writing to sell it.If the show keeps going, I wouldn't mind seeing them give that a try. All depends on finding the right actress, of course, but I think it could be pretty cool.

[Cyke]

I hope not. I hope my comments aren't interpreted as racist or sexist, but it just seems too strange to me for the Doctor to change race or gender when he regenerates.

I dunno, I would think the Doctor would have bigger fish to fry than the color of his skin :)

As for gender, we've seen the Doctor be pretty comfortable with those of different sexualities, to the point where he gave Captain Jack a kiss goodbye and it was no big deal because given circumstances, and other times giving no thought to sexuality like how everyone takes a blue sky for granted.

*****

Anyway, I wouldn't mind seeing an Asian Doctor, though I doubt I'd see that in my lifetime. And even then, I can't think of any screen actor of Asian origin who would pull off a decent Doctor.

[king mob]

Anyway, I wouldn't mind seeing an Asian Doctor, though I doubt I'd see that in my lifetime. And even then, I can't think of any screen actor of Asian origin who would pull off a decent Doctor.



Naveen Andrews would do a great job assuming the BBC still stick with a youngish Doctor and want a well known British actor. Sanjeev Bhaskar's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjeev_Bhaskar)name was thrown around once upon a time, but that when a lot of comics' names were thrown forward before Eccleston was confirmed.

[Cyke]

My only problem with Naveen Andrews is that I automatically see him as tough, in a hard-ass kind of way. Sure, he's capable of layered, complex acting, but the Doctor's never been that kind of tough.

For Sanjeev Bhaskar, I suppose he could fit into the Troughton/McCoy route, though I haven't really seen many of those episodes (or much of Bhaskar's work outside of The Kumars at No. 42).

[Toku King]

Just saw "The Gunfighters", and I really liked it. It's the first First Doctor Story that I was able to see all the way through, and it was certainly much more different than any other Doctor Who serial, but in a good way.

[king mob]

My only problem with Naveen Andrews is that I automatically see him as tough, in a hard-ass kind of way. Sure, he's capable of layered, complex acting, but the Doctor's never been that kind of tough.

He's better known these days for Lost but his earlier work such as Bhudda of Surburbia show him as a much better actor than Lost lets one.

For Sanjeev Bhaskar, I suppose he could fit into the Troughton/McCoy route, though I haven't really seen many of those episodes (or much of Bhaskar's work outside of The Kumars at No. 42).

It wouldn't have worked in much the same way casting Alan Davis wouldn't have worked.

[Popgun]

I dunno, I would think the Doctor would have bigger fish to fry than the color of his skin :)

As for gender, we've seen the Doctor be pretty comfortable with those of different sexualities, to the point where he gave Captain Jack a kiss goodbye and it was no big deal because given circumstances, and other times giving no thought to sexuality like how everyone takes a blue sky for granted.

*****

Anyway, I wouldn't mind seeing an Asian Doctor, though I doubt I'd see that in my lifetime. And even then, I can't think of any screen actor of Asian origin who would pull off a decent Doctor.

Art Malik.

[Cyke]

He's better known these days for Lost but his earlier work such as Bhudda of Surburbia show him as a much better actor than Lost lets one.

I'm an American, that's all I know about the guy :)

[Ontir]

I dunno. Put a wig on Tom Baker's head, I still think he'd do okay.

Tom Baker SOUNDS like Tom Baker's "Doctor," but that's about where it ends these days!

[Matt]

Agreed, Tom's hefting about considerably more weight these days.

[king mob]

Art Malik.

That's a bloody good shout actually.

[Toku King]

I'm gonna give a shout-out to Alan Rickman as the Doctor.

[Popgun]

That's a bloody good shout actually.

It would work, wouldn't it? He has a wonderful voice.

[Deathstroke]

I got to meet Peter Davison yesterday. Very cool!

Oh and he thinks Torchwood is shit.

[Toku King]

I got to meet Peter Davison yesterday. Very cool!

Awesome! I wish that I could!

Oh and he thinks Torchwood is shit.

So do I.

[Deathstroke]

Awesome! I wish that I could!


It was at a convention. I got a pic with him and briefly spoke to him.

And thinking back, I think his exact description of Torchwood was rubbish.

[Toku King]

And thinking back, I think his exact description of Torchwood was rubbish.

And I completely agree with that, considering how much I dislike "Torchwood".

[Dark_Master]

Does anyone even like Torchwood? Seriously, as fun as Cap Jack may be the show stinks

[Toku King]

Does anyone even like Torchwood? Seriously, as fun as Cap Jack may be the show stinks

I love Jack whenever he's on "Doctor Who", but the writers of "Torchwood" really don't understand his character at all. And on top of that, it's so annoying. Every episode I've seen of "Torchwood" wouldn't stop yelling "Look, we're mature! We like to be edgy and have lots of sex!" at the top of its lungs.

[ZT4]

Does anyone even like Torchwood? Seriously, as fun as Cap Jack may be the show stinks

TW was the definition of "rushed" and trying to be a kid's show disguised as a porno.

[Toku King]

TW was the definition of "rushed" and trying to be a kid's show disguised as a porno.

More like a kid's show disguised as a Frank Miller story.

[Captain Jim]

Does anyone even like Torchwood? Seriously, as fun as Cap Jack may be the show stinks

Well, as a matter of fact, I do, quite a bit, actually. Though I could personally do without all the in-your-face gay kissing.

[rick]

Well, as a matter of fact, I do, quite a bit, actually. Though I could personally do without all the in-your-face gay kissing.


I'm a huge fan of Torchwood.

And while I admit that the boy kissing takes some getting used to, I still get a real kick out of TV's first happy, well adjusted, gay action hero.

[Nate Grey]

I like Torchwood, too. Its like a darker version of Dr. Who with guns (which I think is the point, isn't it?). Though out of all the shows, The Sarah Jane Adventures is more fun to watch.

[marshal99]

I liked torchwood for the most part , reminds me of that short lived show Special unit 2 though not a fan of the gwen cooper character.

[Matt]

The sheer stupidity of Torchwood makes me want to stick sharp things into my eyes and ears.

[ZT4]

I like Torchwood, too. Its like a darker version of Dr. Who with guns

Try watching Hinchecliff DW or even Harper-directed old-school Who...hell, any serial by Eric "Slaughterhouse" Saward...even THEY are more sophsticated than TW at it's best.

That said, I do love PJ Hammond's TW contributions, and "Adrfit" was sublime.

[Typo Lad]

I liked the last few episodes of Torchwood, both seasons. They work better when there's actually a larger threat than just "the rift".

[Deathstroke]

Does anyone even like Torchwood? Seriously, as fun as Cap Jack may be the show stinks

I like the show. It's had bad episodes sure, but they've had some good stuff too.

Typo, was it you who posted that video clip of Hitler reacting to the end of Season 2 from Youtube?

Damn that was funny.

[Typo Lad]

Wasn't me, but that was funny as heck.

[ZT4]

That Hitler vid's been used for several things. Viral meme at best, but very funny.

[Ontir]

I found this (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1321969/) over on imdb. It's not much, but it's the beginning of some information about where the series is heading.

[Stressfactor]

I found this (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1321969/) over on imdb. It's not much, but it's the beginning of some information about where the series is heading.
Not really. The first few of the specials are still RTD, not Moffatt so this is less like "where the series is headed" and more like "RTD getting the last of his jollies out."

[Toku King]

I still get a real kick out of TV's first happy, well adjusted, gay action hero.

And that's already something that bugs me: When he's on "Doctor Who" he's bi, but on "Torchwood" he's full on gay. Make up your damn minds!

[Typo Lad]

And that's already something that bugs me: When he's on "Doctor Who" he's bi, but on "Torchwood" he's full on gay. Make up your damn minds!

No, he's still an Omnisexual on Torchwood... he just has a thing with Ianto.

[Toku King]

No, he's still an Omnisexual on Torchwood...

There are many things you can say about "Torchwood", but that ain't one of 'em.

Some more issues I have with the show:
-Sex sex sex sex sex. We get it! It's not a friggin' kid's show! Enough of the sex!
-Everyone has only one separating personality trait, and even that waves around.
-Everyone in "Torchwood" is useless besides Jack, and yet they still bitch about him.
-Jack isn't full blown gay. He's bi.
-A lot of their storylines are just rip offs of either "Doctor Who" stories or "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" stories.

[Typo Lad]

There are many things you can say about "Torchwood", but that ain't one of 'em.

They've had him be attracted to women, just not dally with any of them.

Some more issues I have with the show:
-Sex sex sex sex sex. We get it! It's not a friggin' kid's show! Enough of the sex!

Well, if it were well done I could deal with it, but it's forced.

-Everyone has only one separating personality trait, and even that waves around.

I think Season 2 kind of fleshed the cast out a bit more.

-Everyone in "Torchwood" is useless besides Jack, and yet they still bitch about him.

I think Gwen's pretty cool.


-A lot of their storylines are just rip offs of either "Doctor Who" stories or "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" stories.

Now that I can get behind. The central crime is a lot of the stories, especially the done-in-ones, are nothing new.

[king mob]

Torchwood's problem is that it's a load of shite.

[Ontir]

I like Gwen and particularly like Jack and Ianto (individually and as a couple), but was really saddened by Tosh's death. I think the problem is that it's just bleak and fucking. There isn't a happy bit now and again. They did that one ep in season 1 (one of the best) with the scary faeries, I'd love to see the counterpoint where something that looks big and dreadful turns out to be nothing but a delight.

I'd also like to see the Cardiff branch cease to be the ONLY branch of Torchwood in existence. Maybe even a cross-over with the Manitoba division or something.

[Typo Lad]

I'd love to see the counterpoint where something that looks big and dreadful turns out to be nothing but a delight.

They did that. The one with the jumper.

[AlistairCrane]

Finally saw Midnight. I "grrrred" when the Doctor missed Rose on the monitor behind him. Cannot wait for "Turn Left"! The preview looks ama-za-zing!!

[Matt]

meh, it was nothing special.

[rick]

Torchwood's problem is that it's a load of shite.


Naw, Torchwood is good fun, with excellent writing, engaging characters, really decent stories and just the right amount of tragedy.

I like it.


.

[AlistairCrane]

So far, the second season of TW was better than the fourth season of DW. Only the return of Rose can make the fourth season salvageable, in my opinion.

[Toku King]

So far, the second season of TW was better than the fourth season of DW. Only the return of Rose can make the fourth season salvageable, in my opinion.

I didn't see TW season 2, but DW Season 4 certainly has some of the weakest stories since Colin Baker's era. I was so disappointed by how pathetic Russel T. Davies made the Sontarans, and the fact that they brought Donna back. I couldn't stand her in the Christmas special, so why bring her back?
My only big delight this season was Davros. I was so happy to see one of my favorite Doctor Who villains come back and in top shape. Julian Bleach did fantastic as the Dalek creator. Here's how I would rate the Season 4 episodes...

Voyage Of The Damned - Very good special. Sure, it wasn't perfect, but I certainly enjoyed it. My biggest issue, though, was the fact that Astid died and Mr. Cooper stayed on earth. They would've been awesome companions. Besides that? Very good. 4/5

Partners In Crime - Didn't see it.

The Fires Of Pompeii - Didn't see it.

Planet Of The Ood - One of the highlights of the season. Fantastic episode, and has one of my favorite scenes of the Doctor Who saga in general(the Doctor running from the crane. It was so beautifully action packed and exciting). 4.5/5

The Sontaran Strategem - Pretty good, and it's great to see those ol' potato heads again. 4/5

The Poison Sky - Disappointing ending, though still not awful. The Sontarans were way too weak, though. Also, Luke Rattigan got annoying fast. 2.5/5

The Doctor's Daughter - Poor episode with cliches all around. Still, I loved Jenny and want to see her back. But still, how did Jenny regenerate, but not into a new body? 2/5

Unicorn And The Wasp - I tries introducing my sister to DW, but this episode came on and is now certain that this show sucks. "Unicorn And The Wasp" is easily one of the worst Doctor Who episodes I've ever seen. 1/5

Silence In The Library - Pretty good first parter. I like the Vashta Narada, and the whole story is interesting. I do hope River song becomes a companion, because she's a good character. 4/5

Forest Of The Dead - Great conclusion. Very well done in general, and one of the few bright spots in a generally cruddy season. 4.5/5

Midnight - Didn't See it.

Turn Left - Awful. Just awful. The entire episode focused on Donna(who I can't stand), so maybe that's why I didn't like it at all. The Trickster's Brigade was a good idea, though. 1.5/5

The Stolen Earth - Awesome! I loved every second of this. Though the Supreme Dalek was one of the most uninteresting and uncool Daleks ever, I still loved it. Besides, Davros is back! 5/5

Journey's End - Great conclusion, though Rose's ending just doesn't sit with me. And Donna's ending was a rip off of Jaime's ending from the 60s. Otherwise? More action, and more Davros. 4/5

[darkhanamaru]

so anyone else see the rumour that the next doctor is paterson joseph?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7739408.stm

[Typo Lad]

I don't think anyone hasn't at this point

[Stressfactor]

TokuKing.... DEFINITELY see "Fires of Pompeii" and "Midnight". "Pompeii" starts kind of slow and weird but it ramps it all up by the end. "Midnight" is just this incredible, claustrophobic tale and it really lets David Tennant show off more of his dramatic chops.

And as someone who HATED Colin Baker's seasons.... No, sorry, no matter HOW much you may hate Catherine Tate she will NEVER get on my nerves as much as quavery voiced, bad fake American accent Nicola Bryant as Peri. *Shudder* Bryant has a lovely natural speaking voice (as evidenced by the fact that I enjoyed her on the cast commentary for "Vengeance on Varos" but whatever the hell she was channeling as Peri back in the day it needed to be sent back into the seventh pit of hell it came from.

And also, I can't agree that this series was as weak as C. Baker's stuff.

For me....

Partners in Crime: Fluffy little slightly slapstick story that owes a lot to the old 'screwball' comedy movies of the 1930's and 1940's. It was weakened by an overuse of visual cliches though.

The Fires of Pompeii: Surprisingly dramatic story and proof that Catherine Tate does have the chops for drama. Also, a clarification of yet another one of the Doctor's powers... apparently as a Time Lord he can see "What could be, what should be, and also what must never be".

Planet of the Ood: I'm in the minority here but I found it 'meh'... neither good nor bad just there.

Sontaran Stratgem/Poison Sky: Eh, it made the Sontarans look ridiculous there were plot holes galore and Col. Mace is no Brig. Also, a shame they killed off Ross, he was rather a cute little character and I would have liked seeing him return either with UNIT as a kind of Benton-like character or coming back as a companion.

The Doctor's Daughter: Arrgghhh! The plot holes drove me crazy.

The Unicorn and the Wasp: This was supposed to be a comedy episode?! It wasn't really funny at all AND I got distracted by all the Agatha Christie titles they kept shoehorning into the conversation.

Silence in the Library/Forests of the Dead: Crrreeepy. It was nice seeing some really different new aliens introduced. Ending felt a bit tacked on, though.

Midnight: Sure it rips off Alfred Hitchcock's "Lifeboat" a bit but it does it in style with a lovely sci-fi twist and a rather scathing indictment of the darker side of humanity.

Turn Left: I enjoyed this one if for no other reason then getting a glimpse at how the world might have turned out if the Doctor had died. Plus, plenty of stuff from Bernard Cribbens as Donna's grandfather Wilf and the Mo' Wilf the Mo' better as far as I'm concerned. Loved Wilf.

Stolen Earth/Journey's End: The first half was a pretty good corker. Well done and nice seeing a lot of the former companions brought in. The second half though.... GAH! AGAIN WITH THE PLOT HOLES!!!! Also, there is suspension of disbelief and then there is towing the freakin' Earth back into position with the TARDIS. No. Just..... NO.

[Nate Grey]

I don't think anyone hasn't at this point

*raises hand*

It would be cool, though.

[Toku King]

Since I already reviewed season 4(or at least what I've seen of season 4), I'll review the rest as well. Right now, I'll do season 1.

Rose - Not bad, and a great introduction to the Doctor. Eccleston pulls you in the moment he appears on screen. The whole story is a little slow, but generally I enjoyed it. Still, those pictures of the Doctor through time? You can tell that they're all the same picture of the Doctor glued on in different pictures! 3.5/5

The End Of The World - Great mystery episode. Loved every second of this, and really was one of the episodes that pulled me in. Rose seem a little bitchy sometimes, but besides that is great. 4.5/5

The Unquiet Dead - Not too bad. The Gelth are quite forgettable and I hate it when the Doctor doesn't save the day, but still good stuff. 3./5

Aliens Of London - Good cheesy monster fun with some good drama to even it all out. Nothing special, but I rather like the Slitheen. 3.5/5

World War Three - Great ending to the story, and one of the most underrated episodes in the new series. 4.5/5

Dalek - My first Doctor Who story, and the one that automatically made me a Whovian in a nanosecond. Even watching it now, "Dalek" is still one of my favorite Doctor Who episodes ever. The argument between the Doctor and the Dalek was amazing by all standards, and this story definitely showcases exactly why the Daleks are the Doctor's greatest enemies. 5/5

The Long Game - A pretty good episode that holds up on its own, though I despise Adam here. 3.5/5

Father's Day - Good dramatic episode. The Reapers are pretty interesting monsters, and I loved it when the Doctor sacrificed himself for the people inside the church. 4/5

The Empty Child - Amazing episode. The Gas Mask Zombies are some of the best monsters from the new series, if not in total. Besides, we're introduced to the always fun Captain Jack Harkness! 5/5

The Doctor Dances - Continues the fun! 5/5

Boom Town - Best Slitheen episode ever. Really dives deep in the mind of a murderer. Great story! 5/5

Bad Wolf - Good starter to the finale, though I got tired of so many pop culture references. 3.5/5

The Parting Of Ways - Amazing finale, and we get introduced to one of the most memorable Daleks ever: The Emperor Of All Daleks! This slam bam ending is one to see over and over again as the hordes of Daleks become so bad that not even the Doctor can stop it! 5/5

[Ontir]

They did that. The one with the jumper.

I don't remember a terrifying creature that turned out to be cheerful and fun.

[Typo Lad]

I don't remember a terrifying creature that turned out to be cheerful and fun.

The thing the old man had, which they'd all thought was a doomsday weapon, tuned out to be an alien's equivalent of the Voyager probe.

[Ontir]

OK, I don't recall it, but I'm talking about a creature, not a thing. That's what I'd like to see. I've also got a twisted idea for a Dalek episode for Torchwood, but as the Beeb hasn't renewed the lease, that's on the far back burner.

[Captain Jim]

I bought the series 4 DVD set last Friday and am now enjoying watching these episodes a second time. Anyone else pick it up?

[thehod]

The Doctor's Daughter - Poor episode with cliches all around. Still, I loved Jenny and want to see her back. But still, how did Jenny regenerate, but not into a new body? 2/5

She didn't regenerate. It was the planet's terraforming gas that revived her, and not her tiimelord dna.

[Matt]

She didn't regenerate. It was the planet's terraforming gas that revived her, and not her tiimelord dna.

It looked like a delayed regeneration to me.

[AlistairCrane]

I bought the series 4 DVD set last Friday and am now enjoying watching these episodes a second time. Anyone else pick it up?

At over a hundred dollars a piece (for only 13 episodes!), they're much too expensive for me. Waitin' for a sale.

[Deathstroke]

I bought the series 4 DVD set last Friday and am now enjoying watching these episodes a second time. Anyone else pick it up?

I haven't picked it up yet but I plan to as soon as I can get the best price.

[Toku King]

She didn't regenerate. It was the planet's terraforming gas that revived her, and not her tiimelord dna.

It looked exactly like a regeneration, though.

[AlistairCrane]

It looked exactly like a regeneration, though.

But it wasn't, especially since her appearance didn't change.

[Stressfactor]

I haven't picked it up yet but I plan to as soon as I can get the best price.
Same here. Plus, I've got a number of things on my list ahead of it... The 25th Anniversary edition of "The Five Doctors", the "Beneath the Surface" box set, "Tomb of the Cybermen" ("Well now I know you're mad, I just wanted to make sure." :biggrin: ), and "Seeds of Death".

[Toku King]

At over a hundred dollars a piece (for only 13 episodes!), they're much too expensive for me. Waitin' for a sale.

I get them on iTunes for that reason.

[Cyke]

Partners In Crime - Didn't see it.

I was surprised at how much I liked Partners in Crime. It doesn't pretend to be anything more than it really is, ultimately. I enjoyed this episode more than any other series premiere episode.

The Fires Of Pompeii - Didn't see it.

I myself didn't like this one too much, but I'm well aware that I'm in the vast minority here. I thought the story was fine until the true climax of the story, which wasn't the aliens but the Doctor's morality. Still, I thought the supporting cast was fine, and one of the main villains, for some reason, echoed thoughts of Gary Busey.


The Sontaran Strategem - Pretty good, and it's great to see those ol' potato heads again. 4/5

The Poison Sky - Disappointing ending, though still not awful. The Sontarans were way too weak, though. Also, Luke Rattigan got annoying fast. 2.5/5

Too weak, or a sign of UNIT going back to the old days of kickin' ass and takin' names? I'm just sayin is all.

As for Luke, he got annoying in the first episode :)

The Doctor's Daughter - Poor episode with cliches all around. Still, I loved Jenny and want to see her back. But still, how did Jenny regenerate, but not into a new body? 2/5

I thought this was a rather brilliant episode with an almost Twilight Zone type twist, though I really wish they hadn't done the old trick of splitting up old companion from Doctor + new companion.

As for how Jenny stayed in the same body when she regenerated: she was too hot to die.

(actual theory: since she was just created, and considering that the Doctor was able to regrow his hand after 15 hours post-regeneration, it could be that Jenny's birth acted as a regeneration, so Jenny was able to heal from the gunshot wound the way the Doctor could regrow his hand. OR... Jenny was too hot to die)

Midnight - Didn't See it.

I would urge you to see this, not only because it's so claustrophobic, but it's incredibly character driven (and when has Who ever been character driven?). Lifeboat is an apt comparison, but I'm more inclined to think of it more like Twelve Angry Men.

Turn Left - Awful. Just awful. The entire episode focused on Donna(who I can't stand), so maybe that's why I didn't like it at all. The Trickster's Brigade was a good idea, though. 1.5/5

This I'm in complete disagreement with, but c'est la vie. I think this is the episode where we finally see Donna turn around full circle, setting the stage for her character development in the finale, going from snippity to heroic. Plus, the whole "what ifs' about all the other characters in the Whoverse were just fantastic.

[Toku King]

Too weak, or a sign of UNIT going back to the old days of kickin' ass and takin' names?

Too weak. Bullets have never bothered Sontarans before, and were tough enough to take on Gallifrey's soldiers.

[Matt]

But it wasn't, especially since her appearance didn't change.

Got evidence for that claim? Personally, I'd put it down as yet another plot hole/writing goof which (let's face it) the more recent stories have been full of.

[Matt]

Too weak. Bullets have never bothered Sontarans before, and were tough enough to take on Gallifrey's soldiers.

Gallifrey's Citadel Guards were ceremonial in nature and hadn't actually seen any sort of conflict for centuries at least. Battle hardened men of tactical knowledge they certainly were not.

Even their weapons were next to useless, built to incapacitate humanoid targets rather than actually destroy anything.

[Toku King]

Gallifrey's Citadel Guards were ceremonial in nature and hadn't actually seen any sort of conflict for centuries at least. Battle hardened men of tactical knowledge they certainly were not.

Even their weapons were next to useless, built to incapacitate humanoid targets rather than actually destroy anything.

And even with just that, they kept the universe under check.

[Stressfactor]

And even with just that, they kept the universe under check.

Nnnooot really. Remember, the Time Lords were pretty much 'hands off' back in those days. The Doctor was the renegade and got himself regnerated and exiled thanks to his meddling. Remember the end of "War Games" where the Doctor really excoriates the Time Lords for letting so much evil run around?

If you want to talk about the Time Lords who were "Keeping the Universe in check" you want to be talking about the Celestial Intervention Agency (CIA). The CIA were the ones mucking about and pulling dirty tricks.... including pushing the Doctor to do their dirty work for them when they needed a deniable agent.

But hell, even the Time Lords living outside the citadel were better warriors than the Chancery Guard and those Time Lords outside the citadel were not a patch on Leela.

[adamthered]

I bought the series 4 DVD set last Friday and am now enjoying watching these episodes a second time. Anyone else pick it up?

I'm waiting for mine to get here from Deep Discount. I picked it up at their recent 25% off sale and snagged it for $48.67 :eek: :biggrin:

[Stressfactor]

For anyone who is an "Avengers" fan you know that several stories were re-made for that series. For example, the Cathy Gale story "Don't Look Behind You" was remade as the Emma Peel story "The Joker", "Dressed to Kill" was partly remade as "The Superlative Seven", "Death of a Great Dane" was remade as "The 50,000 Breakfast", etc.

So, with that in mind.... First IS there any Classic "Doctor Who" story you would like to see re-made. If so, what is it? and second, who would you want for the cast?

For me, as WONDERFUL as "Enemy of the World" was I think I wouldn't mind seeing it redone and for the cast I would like to see David Tennant take it on since I think it would be fun to see him working the dual role with one portrayal being dark and sinister and the other his usual, manic Doctor. Obviously, the original story featured two companions but I could see it getting dropped to one and putting Catherine Tate's Donna into the story as she infiltrates Salamander's organization as an administrative assisant temp.

[thehod]

Got evidence for that claim? Personally, I'd put it down as yet another plot hole/writing goof which (let's face it) the more recent stories have been full of.

I'm thinking back a few months, so I may be a little rusty, but the gas that escaped from her mouth was exactly the same that was released from the globe.

She didn't regenerate, she was revived.

[Cyke]

Too weak. Bullets have never bothered Sontarans before, and were tough enough to take on Gallifrey's soldiers.

They were also using special bullets to get past the signal that prevented normal bullets from working. In the past, UNIT's always had special types of bullets and weaponry for all sorts of occasions, such as anti-Cyberman, anti-Yeti, and anti-robot weaponry.

Besides, it led to one of the finer scenes in the episode, when Col. Mace took on General Staal's right hand man.

[AlistairCrane]

I get them on iTunes for that reason.

I don't like digital copies--I want a physical copy that I'll have forever.

[AlistairCrane]

Got evidence for that claim? Personally, I'd put it down as yet another plot hole/writing goof which (let's face it) the more recent stories have been full of.

Evidence? Well, Matt, if you watch the end of the episode, her appearance does not change. Thus, no regeneration.

[Matt]

Evidence? Well, Matt, if you watch the end of the episode, her appearance does not change. Thus, no regeneration.

Which proves nothing, since we've seen that Time Lords can regenerate and choose whatever appearance they want in the past (Romana is an excellent example of this, as is the end of 'War Games'). There are indications that it's an oddity that the Doctor can't choose his appearance.

The mist that came out of her mouth also looked a lot like Time Vortex energy which the Doctor was breathing out after his regeneration in the Christmas Invasion.

[Captain Jim]

At over a hundred dollars a piece (for only 13 episodes!), they're much too expensive for me. Waitin' for a sale.

I got it at Best Buy for $69.99.

Btw, in addition to the 13 episodes, there is also the Christmas special and special features.

[AlistairCrane]

I got it at Best Buy for $69.99.

Btw, in addition to the 13 episodes, there is also the Christmas special and special features.

I know, I've borrowed them all from the library. $69.99 is still too much when other 13-episode sets cost less than $40.

[Ontir]

First IS there any Classic "Doctor Who" story you would like to see re-made. If so, what is it? and second, who would you want for the cast?

Tomb of the Cybermen

David Tennant, Catherine Tate, John Barrowman, Alex Kingston and Steve Pemberton.

[thehod]

The mist that came out of her mouth also looked a lot like Time Vortex energy which the Doctor was breathing out after his regeneration in the Christmas Invasion.

Which the ninth doctor had face sucked outa Rose prompting his regeneration in the first place. It was left over residue from that, not some after effect of the regeneration process.

Jenny didn't have any Time Vortex energy in her, so why should she be burping any out? Answer: she wasn't, because she can't regenerate, she was revived by the terraforming gas, and it was this stuff that escaped from her mouth.

[Doodle Bob]

It's fascinating how much debate can occur over inadequate evidence.

There is no evidence that anyone else killed roughly around the same time as Jennie was also revived by the terraforming gases -- particularly evident since everyone was surprised when she awoke. So, it seems pretty clear to me that we were meant to take her revival as some form of Timelord regeneration.

[thehod]

It's fascinating how much debate can occur over inadequate evidence.

There is no evidence that anyone else killed roughly around the same time as Jennie was also revived by the terraforming gases -- particularly evident since everyone was surprised when she awoke. So, it seems pretty clear to me that we were meant to take her revival as some form of Timelord regeneration.

Point.

Maybe I've not explained myself fully.

I wasn't suggesting that it was solely the terraforming gas that revived her, more a case that because of her timelord dna the terraforming gas was able to revive her. Hence the reason why it happened to no-one else, but it wasn't a regeneration in the same manner as the timelords. If Jenny were to be killed again, she'd die.

Of course, further appearances of the character could render my reading of the situation utterly moot.

[Nate Grey]

I always thought it was solely the gases itself, but after reading this thread, I think it was a combination of the two. Her Timelord DNA gave the gas something to, well, "work with", hence why no one else was revived.

Thing is, was it a one-time thing, or did the gas kick her Timelord DNA into gear, meaning NOW she can regenerate 12 times? Hmm...

[ZT4]

This is the most flatulent DW discussion ever:tongue:

[AlistairCrane]

Just saw Turn Left.

It was WONDERFUL to see Rose back in action again!! As soon as she said "two words" at the end, I knew she was going to say "Bad Wolf". And I loved how the Doctor pieced it together from "blonde woman" and then saw all the Bad Wolf signs...ama-za-zing! Can't wait to see the next two episodes. Hopefully Rose and the Doctor will finally get to finish that conversation they had in Doomsday....

[king mob]

I bought the series 4 DVD set last Friday and am now enjoying watching these episodes a second time. Anyone else pick it up?

Yup, though some of the prices are ridiculous, HMV are selling it for 60 quid for example. Shop online and it's easy to pick it up for 40-ish quid.

[king mob]

In the wake of the collapse of Woolworths (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/retailing/article5248359.ece), there's some concern as to what will happen with future Who DVD's as 2Entertain is part owned by Woolies. 2Entertain has not went into administration but it's sitting there waiting for BBC Worldwide to see if it can buy it (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/nov/26/bbc-woolworths-2entertain).

If the sale goes through then hopefully we'll not notice any break in the schedule of Who, and other BBC DVD releases.

[Toku King]

Something bugs me.

In an old Colin Baker story, the Doctor is 945. But in "Voyage Of The Damned", the Doctor says that he's 903.

Can't they make up their minds?!

[Tadhg]

Something bugs me.

In an old Colin Baker story, the Doctor is 945. But in "Voyage Of The Damned", the Doctor says that he's 903.

Can't they make up their minds?!

Of course they can. The only problem being that the "They" regularly changes.

[Toku King]

Of course they can. The only problem being that the "They" regularly changes.

And "They" need to learn the term "continuity research".

[AlistairCrane]

Pfft, as if you haven't lied about your age to make yourself seem younger!

[SUPERECWFAN1]

And "They" need to learn the term "continuity research".

Well the property/character has existed 40 years . So many episodes , movies , tapes , books.... I'm sure the is a fuck up every now and then continuty wise.

[Toku King]

Well the property/character has existed 40 years . So many episodes , movies , tapes , books.... I'm sure the is a fuck up every now and then continuty wise.

Everything else so far has been strong continuity wise, but they can't keep track of his flippin' age?

[AlistairCrane]

Everything else so far has been strong continuity wise, but they can't keep track of his flippin' age?

Why are you assuming he's ever actually been honest about his age?

[Cyke]

Something bugs me.

In an old Colin Baker story, the Doctor is 945. But in "Voyage Of The Damned", the Doctor says that he's 903.

Can't they make up their minds?!

The Doctor's always been vague about his age, and more often than not it's been out of just plain vanity. Even as far back as the Fourth Doctor, when he gave his age, Romana called him out on his BS and said he was older than that.

Besides, if the Doctor gives his real age, some of the mystery is gone. If he's not gonna give us his real name, he certainly isn't going to give us his real age.

[Ontir]

Which Doctor is what age? We're assuming they're also talking about continuing the counting from the birth of the 1st Doctor, through the current regeneration. We've been lead to believe there are gaps in several of the Doctors' timelines, between companions, or a missing half a season, it's possible that the 10th Doctor IS 903, but that only counts from the time Tennant became the Doctor.

[king mob]

Something bugs me.

In an old Colin Baker story, the Doctor is 945. But in "Voyage Of The Damned", the Doctor says that he's 903.

Can't they make up their minds?!

You do realise RTD has said he did that to take the piss out of continuity geeks.

[Predator]

Has there been any word on when the 2009 specials will be airing in America? I know SciFi was airing Series 4 only a few weeks after they debuted on BBC.

[ChrisIII]

WHO's continuity has never really been solid. The Dalek timelines in both the new and old series are messed up, for instance.

[Stressfactor]

Pfft, as if you haven't lied about your age to make yourself seem younger!
For once, I agree with AlistairCrane. I've always chalked it up to the Doctor being vain enough that he didn't want to admit passing the millenium mark. Sort of like those people who keep celebrating their "39th Birthday" over and over again.

[Ontir]

Pfft, as if you haven't lied about your age to make yourself seem younger!

NEVER!

I've only ever lied about my age to be older, mainly as a teen, so I could get into R rated films, but as I've said for years: If you're going to lie about your age, lie older, it's much easier to maintain in the long run, and then, no matter how old and decrepit you get, people will say, "Wow! You look good for..."

[Captain Jim]

test.............................................. .................................................. .......

[Green Goblin]

(please move if in the wrong place couldn't find the Sarah Jane thread) anywa I show the latest episode of second series and enjoyed it but what blow me away was the trailor for the next one it looks (*****) awsome with the return of Nicholas Corutney.

[Toku King]

WHO's continuity has never really been solid. The Dalek timelines in both the new and old series are messed up, for instance.

How, exactly?

[Cyke]

How, exactly?

For starters, the fact that Van Statten didn't know what a Dalek was, despite all his resources and his ownership of the Internet, in 2012; whereas in Series 2 & 4 the Dalek presence is revealed en masse to the whole world, both of which were set in 2008-2009.

And that's not touching the twenty-plus years of the old show.

Of course, that's all reasonable if you think of Doctor Who continuity as simply following the personal time line of the Doctor. Barring that, however, if you look at time as a naturally linear thing, then yes, Dalek history is pretty messed up.

[king mob]

The latest Radio Times features a lot about the Christmas special.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_h4H6RxsFzhI/STA8GrImDqI/AAAAAAAACME/d6kw6yS2R1E/%5BUNSET%5D.jpg?imgmax=800

[Ontir]

I had an interesting thought yesterday:

I'd assumed that Christopher Eccleston's "Doctor" regenerated from Paul McGann's, and that all other "Doctors" were either destroyed for all eternity, or locked away within the Time War. This is what I'd have done, because McGann's is the least known, and he's the youngest of the elder Doctors, making cross-overs more likely and easier, but then Davison "Time Crashed." His Doctor is somehow still available to the current, post-Time War continuity, but why?

What if Davison's "Doctor" was the one to emerge, largely unscathed from the Time War? If so, then cut off from his future, a paradox could ensue, one that would allow him to regenerate into Eccleston, which means Tennant isn't the 10th "Doctor," but the 7th, or to put it in more Whovian language: 7B with Eccleston as 6B. This would be an interesting paradox as having Davison's knowledge, Eccleston and Tennant (and whoever's next) would remember C Baker, McCoy and McGann, but wouldn't be directly descended from them, and it would give the series a greater natural life-span.

[Stressfactor]

I had an interesting thought yesterday:

I'd assumed that Christopher Eccleston's "Doctor" regenerated from Paul McGann's, and that all other "Doctors" were either destroyed for all eternity, or locked away within the Time War. This is what I'd have done, because McGann's is the least known, and he's the youngest of the elder Doctors, making cross-overs more likely and easier, but then Davison "Time Crashed." His Doctor is somehow still available to the current, post-Time War continuity, but why?

What if Davison's "Doctor" was the one to emerge, largely unscathed from the Time War? If so, then cut off from his future, a paradox could ensue, one that would allow him to regenerate into Eccleston, which means Tennant isn't the 10th "Doctor," but the 7th, or to put it in more Whovian language: 7B with Eccleston as 6B. This would be an interesting paradox as having Davison's knowledge, Eccleston and Tennant (and whoever's next) would remember C Baker, McCoy and McGann, but wouldn't be directly descended from them, and it would give the series a greater natural life-span.
It would be an interesting theory for a "What If" story but it's still waaaaayyyy too complicated to work. One of the complaints leveled at the old series before it died was that it had gotten way too mired in it's own continuity to encourage new viewers.

I kind of like things the way they are... little nods to the past -- like "John Smith" drwaing images of the past Doctors in his journal in "Human Nature", references to "The Romans" in "The Fires of Pompeii", references to "The Sensorites" in "Planet of the Ood", etc. They are moments that old fans can go "HA!" at but new fans can easily just ignore them and continue on their merry way.

And I STILL say they could do a "10 Doctors" story if they did it inside the Doctor's head and animated it -- they could do it "Infinite Quest" style or they could do it "CGI Style" but I really wouldn't care to see them do it "Looney Tunes" style. Either way, for the Docs who have passed away, they could limit the contributions from them and simply lift lines of dialogue from existing stories and patch them together.

AND besides all of that... speaking as (apparently) one of the few fans who actually LIKED "Scream of the Shalka".... if we're going to go all wonky on regenerations I want the Shalka Doc put back in.

[Toku King]

I had an interesting thought yesterday:

I'd assumed that Christopher Eccleston's "Doctor" regenerated from Paul McGann's, and that all other "Doctors" were either destroyed for all eternity, or locked away within the Time War. This is what I'd have done, because McGann's is the least known, and he's the youngest of the elder Doctors, making cross-overs more likely and easier, but then Davison "Time Crashed." His Doctor is somehow still available to the current, post-Time War continuity, but why?

What if Davison's "Doctor" was the one to emerge, largely unscathed from the Time War? If so, then cut off from his future, a paradox could ensue, one that would allow him to regenerate into Eccleston, which means Tennant isn't the 10th "Doctor," but the 7th, or to put it in more Whovian language: 7B with Eccleston as 6B. This would be an interesting paradox as having Davison's knowledge, Eccleston and Tennant (and whoever's next) would remember C Baker, McCoy and McGann, but wouldn't be directly descended from them, and it would give the series a greater natural life-span.

I really don't understand that.

[Ontir]

OK, If Davison's "Doctor" emerges from the walled off Time War, he now exists separate from all other versions of himself, but his past is still his past. His future, however, is another matter. When he regenerates this time, instead of becoming the Colin Baker "Doctor," circumstances of his life, and of the universe could push him in another direction. This creates a paradox of there being 2 6th Doctors, Colin Baker's, who is walled off, and Christopher Eccleston's who continues on in the post-Time War chronology leading to Tennant and beyond.

Instead of Tennant being the 10th, with only 3 regenerations left, he's the 7th with 5.

[Ontir]

It would be an interesting theory for a "What If" story but it's still waaaaayyyy too complicated to work. One of the complaints leveled at the old series before it died was that it had gotten way too mired in it's own continuity to encourage new viewers.

It can be explained, quickly and wittily enough, with a bit of timey-wimey discussion so it shouldn't drown people in techno-babble.

I kind of like things the way they are... little nods to the past -- like "John Smith" drawing images of the past Doctors in his journal in "Human Nature", references to "The Romans" in "The Fires of Pompeii", references to "The Sensorites" in "Planet of the Ood", etc. They are moments that old fans can go "HA!" at but new fans can easily just ignore them and continue on their merry way.[/quote]

That's just the thing. All of those memories are still a part of the Doctor, as is whatever knowledge he has of the "walled off" regenerations.

And I STILL say they could do a "10 Doctors" story if they did it inside the Doctor's head and animated it -- they could do it "Infinite Quest" style or they could do it "CGI Style" but I really wouldn't care to see them do it "Looney Tunes" style. Either way, for the Docs who have passed away, they could limit the contributions from them and simply lift lines of dialogue from existing stories and patch them together.

I think a "10 Doctors" would be un-gainly, and the only way I'd want to see it done, is if they can "Gump" footage of the previous Doctors to create a new story.

[/quote]AND besides all of that... speaking as (apparently) one of the few fans who actually LIKED "Scream of the Shalka".... if we're going to go all wonky on regenerations I want the Shalka Doc put back in.[/QUOTE]

"Scream of the Shalka?" More detail needed.

[Stressfactor]

"Scream of the Shalka" came out in.... oh.... somewhere in the early 200's I think. Someone here will correct me.

Anyway, "Doctor Who" had been dead awhile by then but a lot of websites were playing around with Flash-based animation on their websites so the BBC decided to play around with it on their website as well. They also decided to use it to kind of float the idea of bringing "Doctor Who" back from the dead. They had Paul Cornell (he of "Human Nature") to write a full-length story and they got the British animation Studio Cosgrove Hall (later to do the animation for the missing parts of "The Invasion") to do the animation. Actor Richard E. Grant was brought on to play the part of the Doctor and Derek Jacobi played an android Master.

You can still get to it on BBC's website but it loads kind of slow and clunky and you can't fast forward or reverse and it's a pain in the ass so here's where it starts from someone who's put it up on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOz76ncvjGg

Some stuff isn't fully explained BUT my own PERSONAl take on the Doctor here is that 1) He's lost a female companion -- someone he cared about deeply and maybe even loved. 2) He's become dark and bitter due to all the loss in his life, the last one being the straw that broke the camel's back. 3) He hates traveling alone so at some point he ran into the Master (possibly deliberately on the Doctor's part) when the Master was dying for the final time and offered the Master a deal... He would give the Master a measure of immortality -- upload the Master's mind into a robotic body -- but in return the Master had to travel with him and basically be a companion. Implied is that one reason for doing this was so that the Doctor could have a companion but one he wouldn't feel so bad about if they died. 4) The CIA has gotten it's leash around the Doctor again and they keep sending him on missions -- whether he wants to go or not.

A lot of fans didn't like the story and, to be honest, the psuedo-science is terribly wonky, and many thought Richard E. Grant just phoned in his performance. Apparently Grant himself has admitted that he was ambivalent about the role at the time but, in hindsight, now wishes he had put more into it because he really would have liked a shot at playing the Doctor.

For me, I really liked this bitter, kind of broken version of the Doctor and I liked the idea of the Doctor traveling with the Master.

[Ontir]

I actually did see this, several months ago. There were things I really liked about it.

I would still, had I the chance, use Grant as a younger version of Hartnell's Doctor. His ties to the CIA could play a major part in his future, and also Patrick Troughton's Doctor mentions that he had a family once, and I don't think he was alluding only to Susan.

[Stressfactor]

I would still, had I the chance, use Grant as a younger version of Hartnell's Doctor.
Oddly enough, I could actually see REG as a younger Hartnell. Still arrogant, just a little less crotchety than Hartnell's Doc.
also Patrick Troughton's Doctor mentions that he had a family once, and I don't think he was alluding only to Susan.
Well, that's a bit of a given since Susan was the Doctor's granddaughter. Susan's mother or father MUST have been either the Doctor's son or daughter. The 10th Doctor has also said he was a "dad" but so far there's never been any mention of if the child was a boy or a girl so no way of knowing whether Susan is related to the Doctor through the male line or the female line.

[thehod]

How, exactly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Daleks

Quite a nice synopsis.

[Damiean Dark]

What about the rumours Patterson Joseph will be the first black actor to play Dr Who?.

[Ontir]

Oddly enough, I could actually see REG as a younger Hartnell. Still arrogant, just a little less crotchety than Hartnell's Doc.

Well, that's a bit of a given since Susan was the Doctor's granddaughter. Susan's mother or father MUST have been either the Doctor's son or daughter. The 10th Doctor has also said he was a "dad" but so far there's never been any mention of if the child was a boy or a girl so no way of knowing whether Susan is related to the Doctor through the male line or the female line.

There's actually no way of knowing if Susan is related to the Doctor at all. Has there ever been any statement from her or the Doctor that she's a Time Lord?

[Toku King]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Daleks

Quite a nice synopsis.

I don't see the continuity error.

[Cyke]

I don't see the continuity error.

There's two ways to look at it, neither of which is wrong depending on the context:

1. If you look at it from the Doctor's perspective, then there's no continuity error, since Dalek history seems to go parallel with his life as they both have the ability to time travel. They both have their own personal continuities. This is how the show intends to portray it.

2. If you look at the time stream in a traditionally linear way, like the beginning of time to the end, that's where continuity "errors" emerge, because then you start to see things like Dalek history making a series of loops, like why they seem to be more advanced in the 1960s and more primitive in the 21st century, when they battled the Seventh and First Doctors, respectively. After all, this is a show where the 51st century is the past to some notable modern-day characters.

So while there aren't errors to us the viewing public if the facts are all laid out, there could be easily errors from the perspective of a (preferably non-Time Lord) time traveler within the show itself. This is why it's all a big ball of wibbly wobbly, timey wimey (I couldn't resist).

[Loki]

There's actually no way of knowing if Susan is related to the Doctor at all. Has there ever been any statement from her or the Doctor that she's a Time Lord?

When she was snatched by Borusa in The Five Doctors and dumped in Gallifrey's Death Zone, she knew where she was from one look at the outside terrain and knew the same legends of the place as the Doctor did. Since the Death Zone was a closely held shameful secret from the Time Lords' past, which they didn't discuss with outsiders, that pretty well confirms her as Gallifreyan.

[Stressfactor]

When she was snatched by Borusa in The Five Doctors and dumped in Gallifrey's Death Zone, she knew where she was from one look at the outside terrain and knew the same legends of the place as the Doctor did. Since the Death Zone was a closely held shameful secret from the Time Lords' past, which they didn't discuss with outsiders, that pretty well confirms her as Gallifreyan.
In addition, in "The Sensorites" Susan began displaying the Time Lord tendency to telepathy. The Doctor wasn't surprised she started showing it just surprised she started showing it so strongly at what was a young age for Time Lords.

Also, in "An Unearthly Child" Susan told Ian she couldn't do an assigned math problem without incorporating time into the equation. From things the Doctor and Romana have said this appears to have been common in Gallifreian education ergo Susan must have been taught Gallifreian maths.

On top of all of that, in "The Doctor's Daughter" the Doctor told Donna that he had already been a father and a grandfather as well and there was every indication that he meant in a biological sense to both statements and not like he was an "honorary" grandfather.

[ChrisIII]

The Cybermen's history is also a bit weird too-hence part of the reason why we have 'fresh' Cybermen in the new series as oppossed to the Mondasians/Telosians from the original series.



BTW Susan's origin is outlined in the novel "Lungbarrow", but for the most part, the novel/audios time lord lore (looms and all that) has been retconned or ignored altogether by the new series. (Although the series has used the novels and audios as basis for some of the stories).

[Stressfactor]

What about the rumours Patterson Joseph will be the first black actor to play Dr Who?.
Skin color is no biggie. As someone has pointed out, we HAVE seen black Time Lords before and the idea that the Doctor could change skin pigmentation shouldn't be too hard to swallow considering that he can change hair color and bone structure as well.

As far as Patterson Joseph is concerned... well, I've only seen bits of the man's performances but he has an immense screen presence, he's got charm, charisma, and character by the shovelful, he looks to be a VERY good actor so I'm not at all worried. It will be interesting to see what kind of a direction he takes the Doctor in personality-wise -- I'm looking forward to it.

[Ontir]

When she was snatched by Borusa in The Five Doctors and dumped in Gallifrey's Death Zone, she knew where she was from one look at the outside terrain and knew the same legends of the place as the Doctor did. Since the Death Zone was a closely held shameful secret from the Time Lords' past, which they didn't discuss with outsiders, that pretty well confirms her as Gallifreyan.

That makes sense. I'd always assumed she was his biological grand daughter, but over the years I've heard a great deal of conjecture, and just wanted to throw the idea out there.

[AlistairCrane]

The Stolen Earth episode was absolutely fantastic. I got teary-eyed at the end when the Doctor and Rose raced toward each other! Hopefully next episode we get a Rose/Doctor scene alone, and possibly Rose meets Martha.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I meant to click the link. But on some Canadian TV thread there is a push by some society to make Dr.Who producers hire the 1st female Dr.Who . I wonder how it will work....

[Toku King]

like why they seem to be more advanced in the 1960s and more primitive in the 21st century

Because the stories from the 60s involving the Daleks weren't actually in the 60s.

[Stressfactor]

Because the stories from the 60s involving the Daleks weren't actually in the 60s.

But....but... you're using LOGIC!.... That's so........ LOGICAL! :tongue:
Seriously, though, it's kind of like with the Star Trek people.... they've just got to let some things go. A few years back there was something on NPR about Star Trek and even the NPR reporter pointed out that we now have cell phones that are smaller than the communicators they used in the original series (which was supposed to be set in the future). When even NPR points this stuff out you know it's over.

In the end, the trick is (just like with Star Trek) focus on the STORY and ignore the tech trappings. In the end, you'll be much happier.

[king mob]

I meant to click the link. But on some Canadian TV thread there is a push by some society to make Dr.Who producers hire the 1st female Dr.Who . I wonder how it will work....

It won't as it's been tried before & if rumour is to be believed it's between two or three very male actors with Patterson Joseph the overwhelming favourite.

The BBC are now running short trailers for the Christmas special and it looks quite nice and Christmassy but with Cybermen stomping about in a Victorian setting.

[Ontir]

But....but... you're using LOGIC!.... That's so........ LOGICAL! :tongue:
Seriously, though, it's kind of like with the Star Trek people.... they've just got to let some things go. A few years back there was something on NPR about Star Trek and even the NPR reporter pointed out that we now have cell phones that are smaller than the communicators they used in the original series (which was supposed to be set in the future). When even NPR points this stuff out you know it's over.

In the end, the trick is (just like with Star Trek) focus on the STORY and ignore the tech trappings. In the end, you'll be much happier.

When you can get a cellphone that works half as good as a Starfleet Communicator, you let me know! :evilsmile:

You know, as much as I liked Peter Davison's "Doctor," I find myself wishing more and more that they'd hired Joanna Lumley to be the 5th Doctor!

[AlistairCrane]

When are the final David Tennant specials set to air? There are five right? One this Christmas, one next Christmas..what about the rest?

[Dark_Master]

one of the remaining ones is supposed to air on Easter 2009 and the last one sometime on early 2010

[Cyke]

Because the stories from the 60s involving the Daleks weren't actually in the 60s.

You have to look at it from the perspective of a non-time traveling character IN the show, someone who perceives time like we normally would, and not like a traveler like the Doctor or the Daleks. If a character looked at the timeline in a linear fashion, there would be contradictions all over the place. This is what allows for different levels of Daleks to show up, and as long as the viewer knows the personal history of the Daleks, then everything is mapped out correctly regardless of the temporal setting of the episode. This is why the Doctor (and thus the viewer) would not consider these to be contradictory facts, even though everyone else around them would.

Simply put: WE would know that a story in 1963 but made in 1988 would contain super-advanced Daleks. To the natives of 1963, to the characters in the show, they would think that that's what 1960s Daleks were really like. WE ourselves wouldn't consider these to be continuity errors, but the characters IN the show would perceive them as such.

Or, to put it another way: the perspective of the Doctor, the viewer, and someone like Jack Harkness go one way (the first way, as I mentioned in my previous post). The perspective of someone like Gwen or Ianto or Jackie Tyler, basically people with no time travel experience, is the "normal" way that most people would perceive time, (the second way that I gave in the previous post). The first way is the way you know it, the second way is the way people within the show would perceive it. Neither is necessarily wrong, as the characters in the show would be quite justified in their confusion. After all, the show repeatedly points out that humanity is still trying to grasp a higher understanding of time.


In the end, the trick is (just like with Star Trek) focus on the STORY and ignore the tech trappings. In the end, you'll be much happier.

Exactly. As the imagination of writers evolves, so does everything we see on screen. In the end, no matter what they can do and what era of time or their own personal history they're from, the Daleks are still giant pepper shakers that chase you and yell Exterminate. And really, what more could you ask for? They have the power to destroy the omniverse and the STILL stick to their usual habits :)

[king mob]

When are the final David Tennant specials set to air? There are five right? One this Christmas, one next Christmas..what about the rest?

There's one definately at Easter, the others are supposed to be broadcast over the various other bank holiday weekends next year, with his final episode being next year's Christmas special.

[AlistairCrane]

There's one definately at Easter, the others are supposed to be broadcast over the various other bank holiday weekends next year, with his final episode being next year's Christmas special.

Err, what's a bank holiday?

[Stressfactor]

When you can get a cellphone that works half as good as a Starfleet Communicator, you let me know! :evilsmile: I dunno -- it seems to me that Kirk and the gang often got a lot of interference on their communicators.:tongue:

You know, as much as I liked Peter Davison's "Doctor," I find myself wishing more and more that they'd hired Joanna Lumley to be the 5th Doctor!If you have not watched "Sapphire and Steel" get thee hence and rent it! Seriously, awesome stuff, a young Joanna Lumely (and a young-er David McCallum :smile: ). It's awesome, awesome stuff. Not "Doctor Who" quite but creepy and eerie and fun and weird and complex and sometimes morally ambiguous.

I do say "rent" and not "own" though because the whole series is out on box set but it's hella 'spensive.

[Ontir]

I can't get a call when I'm in the canyons and in various parts of the valley. Kirk could make interplanetary calls!!! :evilangry:

I've not seen "Sapphire & Steel," but I've heard many good things and have just added it to the Netflix queue! I was a HUGE "New Avengers" fan, and often got a kick out of the "AbFab" flashbacks where they made Lumley look EXACTLY like "Purdey."

[Stressfactor]

I can't get a call when I'm in the canyons and in various parts of the valley. Kirk could make interplanetary calls!!! :evilangry:

I've not seen "Sapphire & Steel," but I've heard many good things and have just added it to the Netflix queue! I was a HUGE "New Avengers" fan, and often got a kick out of the "AbFab" flashbacks where they made Lumley look EXACTLY like "Purdey."
Could never quite like "New Avengers" but "Classic Avengers"... that's some good stuff.... well, up until the Tara King years... *shudder*.

One of the BEST classic Avengers moments:

Mrs: Peel: (waving around a Christmas card) Who's 'Cathy'?
Steed: Ah, Mrs. Gale.... Whatever CAN she be doing at Fort Knox?"
:tongue:

[Damiean Dark]

Who Will Be The Next Doctor??

[Ontir]

Exactly so!

BTW: Here's a peek at the "Doctor Who" 2008 Christmas Special (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxiPaJ2lyNM).

[Typo Lad]

Thanks Ontir.

Looking forward to it.

[king mob]

Err, what's a bank holiday?

It's a weekend where the banks are closed so we all get a long weekend off. So that's Easter, Mayday, the last weekend in May and the last weekend in August.

[king mob]

I've not seen "Sapphire & Steel," but I've heard many good things and have just added it to the Netflix queue! I was a HUGE "New Avengers" fan, and often got a kick out of the "AbFab" flashbacks where they made Lumley look EXACTLY like "Purdey."


It's great telefantasy, but it is cheap looking compared even to 70's Who. However it's just head and shoulders above a lot of genre telly & stands up brilliantly well thanks to PJ Hammond's writing. I'd hate to see a revivial of the programme though, especially if it's as poor as the Survivors remake.

[Stressfactor]

It's great telefantasy, but it is cheap looking compared even to 70's Who.
I wouldn't say that necessarily. Certainly, the first episode is cheap, yes, but the second story has some great costuming and creepy effects that work better for being minimalist. It may suffer a bit from being totally done in a studio but you really don't notice as the set designers did a wonderful job.

The third serial does go back to looking rather cheap but I thought the fourth serial was excellent for the time period. The faceless man effect is nicely done for a pre-CGI era and the costuming and subtle make-up effects are terrific -- whoever thought up the idea of giving the photograph children a sepia tone to the make-up was brilliant.

The fifth story is okay but in truth that's mostly because there are very few special effects to it. The sixth, and final serial I think the effcts are pretty good it's just the story suffers again from being entirely studio bound.

And I would support a revival... but only if PJ Hammond went back to writing it.

[Ontir]

It's a weekend where the banks are closed so we all get a long weekend off. So that's Easter, Mayday, the last weekend in May and the last weekend in August.

What's "Mayday?"

In the US, it just means your plane is about to crash. :eek:

[Loki]

What's "Mayday?"

In the US, it just means your plane is about to crash. :eek:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_day

[Cyke]

If you have not watched "Sapphire and Steel" get thee hence and rent it! Seriously, awesome stuff, a young Joanna Lumely (and a young-er David McCallum :smile: ). It's awesome, awesome stuff. Not "Doctor Who" quite but creepy and eerie and fun and weird and complex and sometimes morally ambiguous.

A big affirmative on the "creepy" part:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNbca1Stzms

[AlistairCrane]

So, Journey's End is 65 minutes right? Well, I believe CBC is going to edit out 20 minutes of the show to fit it into its Friday 9-10 PM timeslot. Does anyone know where I may be able to view the whole thing? Private message me please!!

[Ontir]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_day

Oh. I know the old Soviet Union celebrated May Day, but I didn't realize England does as well.

[Captain Jim]

Oh. I know the old Soviet Union celebrated May Day, but I didn't realize England does as well.

It's not unknown in the US, though it's not a day off work here. I believe it used to be observed more commonly in years gone by.

[king mob]

And I would support a revival... but only if PJ Hammond went back to writing it.

Indeed. As he's been a regular writer for dozens of programmes on British telly, including some of the better episodes of Torchwood, then I'd be up for that.

[Ontir]

It's not unknown in the US, though it's not a day off work here. I believe it used to be observed more commonly in years gone by.

I think those years must've been pre-McCarthy! :eek:

[king mob]

Oh. I know the old Soviet Union celebrated May Day, but I didn't realize England does as well.

The rest of the UK does as well.

[AlistairCrane]

Where can I find Journey's End online? PM me!!

[AlistairCrane]

I just saw Journey's End.

Oh. My. God.

I had a fangasm!! That was absolutely the best episode of Doctor Who. Ever. Everything was good--oh god, I literally just finished watching it so I have a lot to process. I loved the hint of Martha joining Torchwood, I loved Jackie with a gun, I actually liked Donna in the end!

And Rose. She got her happy ending! The Doctor finally said what she had waited years to hear, and we finally got The Kiss. :smile: I am an extremely happy fan right now, and I'm kind of glad the upcoming specials will be "stand alone" stories because they can't top what they just did. And I love that David Tennant can return as the Doctor one day, albeit a half-human one.

P.S. I thought someone died in this episode.

[Captain Jim]

Harriet Jones is the only one who died in the two-part finale.

(Never thought I'd hear you say you liked Donna. :eek: )

[Charles RB]

Personally I thought Journey's End was just a lot of noise and lights with no real support - it's good the first time round, but on rewatching I'm going to fast-forward through LOADS.

Mainly all the "YAY OTHER COMPANIONS WE LOVE EACH OTHER!" scenes, which drag on for ages - any scene with Rose and romance in it, especially that stupid "yay Rose has got together with a inexact copy of her obsession, that'll make her happy!" - and Donna's end, which is tragic but when I think about it I think "isn't it crueller to have forced her to live but forget, when she asked to not forget?".

[ZT4]

Harriet Jones is the only one who died in the two-part finale.

Aside from some side-characters and one family trapped in their house, plus all the off-screen murders.

[Stressfactor]

P.S. I thought someone died in this episode.
It was a metaphorical death -- Everything that Donna had become and everything that she could potentially be "died" when the Doctor wiped away her memories.

There is an alternate version of the scene on the beach that makes this clear where Donna is described as the "perfect" companion -- a human with a Time Lord brain.

There are some things I like better about the alternate version -- for one, the Doctor throws his half-human clone a piece of TARDIS and tells him to grow his own. When clone Doc complains that it will take centuries, Donna tells him how to grow it faster and the Original Doc encourages Rose and Clone Doc to go out there and have adventures -- the Doctor and Rose in the TARDIS in the alternate universe.

[Toonimator]

Cool... hadn't heard about that alternate scene. I like it! Opens the door for, if nothing else, some comic book adventures maybe.

[Pól Rua]

It's not unknown in the US, though it's not a day off work here. I believe it used to be observed more commonly in years gone by.

It's essentially the equivalent of Labour Day.
In Australia, we celebrate Labour Day on May 1.

[Captain Jim]

There is an alternate version of the scene on the beach that makes this clear where Donna is described as the "perfect" companion -- a human with a Time Lord brain.

There are some things I like better about the alternate version -- for one, the Doctor throws his half-human clone a piece of TARDIS and tells him to grow his own. When clone Doc complains that it will take centuries, Donna tells him how to grow it faster and the Original Doc encourages Rose and Clone Doc to go out there and have adventures -- the Doctor and Rose in the TARDIS in the alternate universe.

I don't think it's so much an "alternate version," it's simply deleted scenes. They're supposed to be on the DVD, but I haven't gotten that far to verify it yet.

[AlistairCrane]

Personally I thought Journey's End was just a lot of noise and lights with no real support - it's good the first time round, but on rewatching I'm going to fast-forward through LOADS.

Mainly all the "YAY OTHER COMPANIONS WE LOVE EACH OTHER!" scenes, which drag on for ages - any scene with Rose and romance in it, especially that stupid "yay Rose has got together with a inexact copy of her obsession, that'll make her happy!" - and Donna's end, which is tragic but when I think about it I think "isn't it crueller to have forced her to live but forget, when she asked to not forget?".

So basically you didn't like everything I loved about it.

[AlistairCrane]

Now that it's been about 24 hours, I can reflect on some of my favourite moments:

-Martha meeting Rose on the monitor--"Oh my God, he found you!" or something to that extent. Loved it! It resonated with the whole theme of S3 dealing with the Doctor trying to cope with losing Rose and Martha's role in that process.

-Jackie kicking ass and taking names. Being in the alt-verse has done her well! Her line at the end about having to get back to England from Norway was fun.

-Torchwood--I liked that they explained Gwen's resemblance to Gwyneth, and I thought the time lock idea was neat. Eve and Gareth seemed to be having a lot of fun in their scenes even though they didn't interact with any proper DW characters.

-Sarah Jane: So if I watched the Sarah Jane Adventures, the necklace thingy probably would've resonated more. But now I want to go watch her series.

-Jack: His not being able to die thingy is pretty cool, and it's fun to see how he uses it to his advantage in this episode.

-Donna got to shine when she helped save the day and proved that she was more than a useless t**t (I love British slang!). I would like to see her again in the future simply to see if she dies or not if she gets her memories back.

-Rose: Well, I was extremely happy at the end here. The Doctor finally told Rose he loved her, and Rose finally got the Doctor! I imagine they will be adventuring together in the alt world. The Doctor 10.5 has all the good things about the original Doctor (his memories of Rose) but without the baggage. As a 'shipper, this made me happiest of all. PLUS, the door is always open for more David Tennant/Billie Piper adventures.

And I especially loved all of the Doctor's companions from the past 3 years coming together to help him save the universe. To me, this was a crowd-pleasing episode and it worked well on a "series finale" sort of level. I like that the slate has been left blank for Moffat so he can't possibly step on Davies' toes and do something potentially horrible like kill off a favourite character of mine. But at the same time, he can build on things established this season, like River and Jenny. I'm always apprehensive when a new showrunner takes over, but because Davies gave me my happy ending, and David Tennant is leaving, I can enter season five with a blank slate as well.

FIVE THUMBS UP!!!!!

[Matt]

Personally I thought Journey's End was just a lot of noise and lights with no real support - it's good the first time round, but on rewatching I'm going to fast-forward through LOADS.

Mainly all the "YAY OTHER COMPANIONS WE LOVE EACH OTHER!" scenes, which drag on for ages - any scene with Rose and romance in it, especially that stupid "yay Rose has got together with a inexact copy of her obsession, that'll make her happy!" - and Donna's end, which is tragic but when I think about it I think "isn't it crueller to have forced her to live but forget, when she asked to not forget?".

Yes, I'd have to agree with that summary.

It needed to go back and have the script edited a few more times, certainly.

[Charles RB]

Yes, I'd have to agree with that summary.

It needed to go back and have the script edited a few more times, certainly.

And in editing, they can cut that bloody "HE COMMITTED GENOCIDE :mad: " scene.

Hey, Doc - you've been committing genocide against the Daleks since 1963. And if your clone didn't, there'd still be an army of Daleks, what's the alternative for getting rid of them exactly?

And then there's the attempts in New Who and spinoffs to go "ooer, UNIT's dodgy these days". We can tell they're dodgy because they're a large organisation with sweeping legal powers who aim guns at people and take over facilities... just like in The Invasion, Silurians etc. The only dodgy thing they've done is have a secret prison in a Torchwood episode, and to be frank that clashes so badly that it doesn't work at all. Torchwood having a secret prison, OTOH...

[Stressfactor]

Hey, Doc - you've been committing genocide against the Daleks since 1963.

Quoted for truth. Seriously, HOW many times has the Doctor tried to wipe out BOTH the Daleks and the Cybermen? Hell, Fivey even blasted away at a de-cased Dalek mutant with a freakin' HAND GUN and didn't bat an eye! And that was sweet, soulful FIVEY!!!

[Charles RB]

And he didn't have a problem with Rose doing it...

Course he also said "we could do with the Brigadier" in The Poison Sky while trying to stop Colonel Mace from taking any military action at all - which the Brigadier took all the damn time.

[Stressfactor]

And he didn't have a problem with Rose doing it...

Course he also said "we could do with the Brigadier" in The Poison Sky while trying to stop Colonel Mace from taking any military action at all - which the Brigadier took all the damn time.

No kidding -- Silurians anyone? Of course, the Doctor in "The Poison Sky" may have been thnking the Brig had mellowed a bit.... No, wait.... The Brig knocked the Doctor out and stole a gun full of silver bullets to put an end to the Destroyer in "Battlefield" and what was it Morgan said of him in that story... "This man is steeped in blood."

Yeah, methinks the Doctor has gotten a bit hypocritical in recent years.

[ZT4]

He looks at every incarnation as a fresh start, trying to be that "dove of peace" so he doesnt become The Valeyard, yet he just keeps digging that particular grave for himself.

[AlistairCrane]

I gotta say, this will live on forever as my favourite Doctor Who moment:

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/i/bcst/yeurope/yahooukie/bbc/2864/67846743.jpg

[Toku King]

and Donna's end, which is tragic but when I think about it I think "isn't it crueller to have forced her to live but forget, when she asked to not forget?".

I hated that ending, mostly because it's an absolute rip-off of Jaime's ending.

You know what would've been an amazing ending? If Donna turned out to be the Rani, and just didn't know that she was.

[Charles RB]

Yeah, methinks the Doctor has gotten a bit hypocritical in recent years.

It could be the writers nostalgicly viewing UNIT as "innocent" and "homespun" - which it was in some stories, true, but in its earliest it was a large-scale military force and competent at it. Even in later stories, this can come through: Invasion Of The Dinosaurs has UNIT having martial law over London and carrying it out.

It might even be a War On Terror metaphor, with the problem that Whoniverse aliens aren't acting like real-world terrorists and there's no alien civilian minority groups. (And hell, the Doctor talks with pride and admiration about Britain fighting the Nazis - one of our main tactics there was deliberate carpet bombing of civilian areas! New-series UNIT never did anything on that level.)

[Captain Jim]

I don't think it's so much an "alternate version," it's simply deleted scenes. They're supposed to be on the DVD, but I haven't gotten that far to verify it yet.

I watched the deleted scenes from the finale last night. As far as the following...

Donna is described as the "perfect" companion -- a human with a Time Lord brain.

There are some things I like better about the alternate version -- for one, the Doctor throws his half-human clone a piece of TARDIS and tells him to grow his own. When clone Doc complains that it will take centuries, Donna tells him how to grow it faster and the Original Doc encourages Rose and Clone Doc to go out there and have adventures -- the Doctor and Rose in the TARDIS in the alternate universe.

Yeah, as I said, just a deleted scene. Davies liked it but Julie insisted it needed to go (too confusing). However, as far as Davies is concerned, it still happened.

There actually is an "alternate ending," however. In the alternate ending, Donna hears the sound of the Tardis taking off and reacts. And aboard the Tardis, the Doctor reacts to something on the console (saying, "What? What? What?") as two Cybermen appear behind him, out of his sight.

IIRC, it was again Julie who objected to the Donna scene. But Davies said it was someone from Doctor Who Magazine who convinced him to change the final (Cybermen) ending, on the basis that it seemed out of place following the preceeding tragic envents.

[Charles RB]

There actually is an "alternate ending," however. In the alternate ending, Donna hears the sound of the Tardis taking off and reacts.

Except based on what the Doctor had been saying, that would mean the instant the scene changed Donna died.

I'm glad they changed that - that would've been even worse.

[Paul McEnery]

Personally I thought Journey's End was just a lot of noise and lights with no real support - it's good the first time round, but on rewatching I'm going to fast-forward through LOADS.

Mainly all the "YAY OTHER COMPANIONS WE LOVE EACH OTHER!" scenes, which drag on for ages - any scene with Rose and romance in it, especially that stupid "yay Rose has got together with a inexact copy of her obsession, that'll make her happy!" - and Donna's end, which is tragic but when I think about it I think "isn't it crueller to have forced her to live but forget, when she asked to not forget?".

You are too kind.

[Captain Jim]

Except based on what the Doctor had been saying, that would mean the instant the scene changed Donna died.


Not necessarily. It didn't imply that she remembered anything, simply that she reacted, possibly on a subconscious level.

In any case, Julie's objection was that she shouldn't have reacted at all, and Russell ultimately agreed.

[AlistairCrane]

I think they should've found a way to keep the TARDIS coral scene. I want to imagine that Rose and the Doctor are exploring the alt-verse in the TARDIS.

[Stressfactor]

I still really, really would love to see the Doctor and Sarah Jane have a conversation about Luke. This has great potential for hilarity. Plus, in a lot of ways Luke is kind of a prototype for a "teenage Doctor".

[Doodle Bob]

As long as we're talking about it, I'll admit that I found the last episode rather lacking. The plotline was way too loose and freewheeling. As a wrap-up of Davies' four years at the helm of the show, it seemed to lack the power and creativity of some of the other season finales. In particular, virtually all of the emotional buttons that it pushes had already been explored over and over again -- Doctor loses beloved companion, Doctor must confront an old enemy, Doctor has to save the Earth, Daleks.

I think it would have been much more powerful of a storyline, if Rose and the Doctor didn't meet at all during the entire storyline, that they kept missing each other. The way it actually ended deflates a great deal of the power of the ending of the 2nd season.