View Full Version : Nightwing, Christian?
BoosterBronze
03-03-2005, 11:25 AM
I remember back in the early issues of Nightwing, there'd be occasional art refrences to Dick being a Christian (He had a NIV Bible, and some Christian CDs). Nothing was made of it then. I havent read Nightwing reguarly since like, 1999, and am wondering if anything was ever made of this, or does it continue in the background at all, or is Dick Jewish now, or whatever.
Private America
03-03-2005, 01:02 PM
I remember back in the early issues of Nightwing, there'd be occasional art refrences to Dick being a Christian (He had a NIV Bible, and some Christian CDs). Nothing was made of it then. I havent read Nightwing reguarly since like, 1999, and am wondering if anything was ever made of this, or does it continue in the background at all, or is Dick Jewish now, or whatever.
I haven't noticed anything lately, no. Though I did notice those things you were referring to.
McDaniel is a Christian, I saw it on his web site. I assumed that was simply stuff that he inserted into the book himself. As a...what do you call it? Easter egg? In joke? But it had no bearing on the character. I've heard some NW fans say they've seen him mention in some past Bat books that he prays. But I don't know anything beyond that. Dixon is a Christian but I've never seen him make NW in anyway religious. But from issues of the JLA that I've read Batman is an aeithiest.
barbgrayson
03-03-2005, 06:23 PM
whoa that'a something new that i've learned about dick.
pennywisdom
03-03-2005, 06:56 PM
Mia's right. Although he may or may not be Christian (I don't think it's been spelled out anywhere), the two creators most closely associated with the character are. So, although Dick's faith is never specified, I think Scott has inserted a couple "in-jokes" for himself and Christian readers. Check out his website for more artwork dedicated to his faith.
Captain Jim
03-03-2005, 09:19 PM
Dixon and McDaniel (both Christians, as already mentioned) definitely considered Dick to be one as well. I believe Dixon once stated he saw Batman not as an athiest, but as a lapsed Catholic (hence all the pent-up guilt).
The Lucky One
03-03-2005, 09:42 PM
Seems like Bats would have to be pretty stupid to be an athiest. In a world where your close, personal friends have actually been to heaven and chatted with the Big Guy Himself, I feel like a bit of the doubt should maybe be taken out of the equation.
-D
Smuggletrain
03-04-2005, 03:53 AM
Seems like Bats would have to be pretty stupid to be an athiest. In a world where your close, personal friends have actually been to heaven and chatted with the Big Guy Himself, I feel like a bit of the doubt should maybe be taken out of the equation.
-D
Don't forget personally knowing demons.
Private America
03-04-2005, 04:45 AM
You know, it would be interesting to see a DC character written as a Christian. Whether that's Nightwing or someone else, it would make for some interesting stories.
discostu
03-04-2005, 04:48 AM
he probably got molested by a priest when he was little.
Windbreaker
03-04-2005, 04:51 AM
You're right, PA. Especially since 80-90% of Americans profess to be Christians. The hero's struggles would strike a familiar chord with people. Everyone makes decisions based on their worldview, so many readers would understand the tough decisions being made.
Private America
03-04-2005, 04:52 AM
Geoff Johns has done some great work with Dr. Midnite and Mr. Terrific, re: faith and atheism, over in the JSA title.
The Xenos
03-04-2005, 06:24 AM
Being that his family is from Eastern Europe, I could hope he's Eastern Orthodox Christian. Then again no one ever knows who we are, so I doubt it.
-Xenos
IamtheRock3
03-04-2005, 07:53 AM
McDaniel is a Christian, I saw it on his web site. I assumed that was simply stuff that he inserted into the book himself. As a...what do you call it? Easter egg? In joke? But it had no bearing on the character. I've heard some NW fans say they've seen him mention in some past Bat books that he prays. But I don't know anything beyond that. Dixon is a Christian but I've never seen him make NW in anyway religious. But from issues of the JLA that I've read Batman is an aeithiest.
Haventn't batman actully been to heaven.
Sage Shinigami
03-04-2005, 08:27 AM
Haventn't batman actully been to heaven.
Yeah, he's been. And people in the MU see Thor every day, and pretend he's not the Thunder God. It doesn't matter what people see, if they can reject it, then it doesn't exist to them.
VietN
03-04-2005, 08:47 AM
Whatever "God" or whatever they have in the DC Universe isn't necessarily the Christian one, though I would certainly say that DCU is inspired by that type of ideology.
Whatever "God" or whatever they have in the DC Universe isn't necessarily the Christian one, though I would certainly say that DCU is inspired by that type of ideology.
Not exactly sure what that's supposed to mean .
However since I'm assuming that since the characters in the DCU are supposed to come from varied backgrounds, life experiences etc. I don't see why they wouldn't have individual different experiences with religious faiths, including a Christian one.
Viking Bastard
03-04-2005, 08:58 AM
Seems like Bats would have to be pretty stupid to be an athiest. In a world where your close, personal friends have actually been to heaven and chatted with the Big Guy Himself, I feel like a bit of the doubt should maybe be taken out of the equation.
Why? How can you believe in God if your most trusted partner beat
up an archangel. It's hard to believe in a god you've met. There's also
a big difference over believing that there's some big cosmic entity in
some alternate dimension (where some people's souls go after death)
which some people like to think of as "The God" and having faith in
your Lord Savior. How many Cosmic Gawd Wannabes has Bats and his
JLA buddies seen over the years? Near omnipotent imps from the 5th
dimension? What makes "God" any different from them? Doesn't mean
Batman doesn't believe Jahve and his Nine Choirs of Angels exist. He
just doesn't see any reason why they should be worshipped/trusted.
As for Dick being christian, I kinda think it rather fits the character,
as long as he's not playing the Crisis-of-Faith card. Not his style.
Actually I do see it as possible for Batman to be an atheist. If you follow some of the statements I've read from athiests such as Phillip Pullman that if there was a God he wouldn't allow bad things to happen etc. I can see Bruce thinking about God in exactly the same way.
I think of Batman as an atheist the same way I think of the Edmond Dantes character in the Count of Monte Cristo movie. Who after being betrayed and so cruelly treated decides that there isn't a God. And if He does exist he wouldn't care about him.
Edmond:. I don't believe in God Priest.
Abbe Faria: Too bad He believes in you.
pennywisdom
03-04-2005, 09:29 AM
Geoff Johns has done some great work with Dr. Midnite and Mr. Terrific, re: faith and atheism, over in the JSA title.
Johns has done some great work period over in the JSA title.
RE: Dick's faith: Scott and Chuck have their own perception, but doesn't EVERYONE have their own perception? Unless it's strictly spelled out, the Christianity thing is just speculation. I wouldn't mind a Christian character in comics, but I wouldn't want them to drastically alter Dick just to draw in Christian readers. That seems like pandering.
RE: Dick's faith: Scott and Chuck have their own perception, but doesn't EVERYONE have their own perception? Unless it's strictly spelled out, the Christianity thing is just speculation. I wouldn't mind a Christian character in comics, but I wouldn't want them to drastically alter Dick just to draw in Christian readers. That seems like pandering.
Personally I never saw it, I mean apart from the Christian paraphanalia lying around his appartment. But I just thought that it was an in gag by McDaniel.
The best handling I have of religion with Christian characters is Daredevil and Huntress (pre Gail Simone). Their relation to Catholocism seemed to be more of a form of support and sustance. Than any sort of preaching. In short you could see what an integral part of the character it was and how it shapped them.
pennywisdom
03-04-2005, 10:02 AM
I agree with both points. You're right.
Moonstonelover
03-04-2005, 10:30 AM
what christian stuff was hanging around dicks apartment? can you elaborate?
Windbreaker
03-04-2005, 10:45 AM
The best handling I have of religion with Christian characters is Daredevil and Huntress (pre Gail Simone). Their relation to Catholocism seemed to be more of a form of support and sustance. Than any sort of preaching. In short you could see what an integral part of the character it was and how it shapped them.
That's what I think would be interesting with NW. His character wouldn't be reinvented. Rather, his motives and worldview would be explored more. DD is an excellent example of how a hero's religious beliefs drive them, without the writer becoming preachy. Kevin Smith is familiar with catholicism - his run was respectful, not exploitive of Murdock's faith.
Loren
03-04-2005, 10:55 AM
I believe Dixon once stated he saw Batman not as an athiest, but as a lapsed Catholic (hence all the pent-up guilt).
I've long been fond of Elliot S! Maggin's (http://www.fanzing.com/mag/fanzing09/iview.shtml) religious IDs, including where he said that Bruce is Episcopalian (and Lois Lane is Catholic). Coming from a prestigious, old money family in a major Northeast city, it seems like a good fit.
But I've always thought of him as a lapsed Episcopalian.
Loren
Private America
03-04-2005, 11:05 AM
Johns has done some great work period over in the JSA title.
RE: Dick's faith: Scott and Chuck have their own perception, but doesn't EVERYONE have their own perception? Unless it's strictly spelled out, the Christianity thing is just speculation. I wouldn't mind a Christian character in comics, but I wouldn't want them to drastically alter Dick just to draw in Christian readers. That seems like pandering.
Yeah, JSA is fantastic...almost every single issue in the 70+ issues I have enjoyed.
Everyone DOES have their own perception, but I don't think that perception = truth. I might think and perceive that an apple is blue, but that doesn't change the truth that an apple is red.
I agree about the pandering thing, actually. Unless you are going to tell an interesting story that has a message, don't make a character do anything just to do it.
comic_lover
03-07-2005, 08:52 AM
Dixon and McDaniel (both Christians, as already mentioned) definitely considered Dick to be one as well. I believe Dixon once stated he saw Batman not as an athiest, but as a lapsed Catholic (hence all the pent-up guilt). That's an excellent theory.
barbgrayson
03-09-2005, 05:44 PM
when did batman got up to heaven?
roguespirit
03-10-2005, 01:46 AM
Why? How can you believe in God if your most trusted partner beat
up an archangel. It's hard to believe in a god you've met.
An Atheist doesn't believe that God exists so if you've met him how can you be an atheist?
roguespirit
03-10-2005, 01:50 AM
Yeah, JSA is fantastic...almost every single issue in the 70+ issues I have enjoyed.
Everyone DOES have their own perception, but I don't think that perception = truth. I might think and perceive that an apple is blue, but that doesn't change the truth that an apple is red.
I agree about the pandering thing, actually. Unless you are going to tell an interesting story that has a message, don't make a character do anything just to do it.
If christianity is part of a characters motivation then the things he does because of it is no more pandering than the things that non christian characters do are pandering to non christians.
Couldn't it be seen as part of the characters ddevelopment. Non christians become christians all the time as much as christians leave the church all the time.
Viking Bastard
03-10-2005, 04:53 AM
An Atheist doesn't believe that God exists so if you've met him how can you be an atheist?
Actually, no. Atheistism is more than just not believing in God or any
other religious force. It's putting your faith in science/logic. There's a big
difference between knowing something exists and worshipping it as your
god. A tribe somewhere might worship the largest tree in the forest as a
godly being, but I can see it's just a tree. Hal Jordan went nuts and
achieved the power to rewrite reality. The power of a god. More power
than most DCU gods, in fact. How can you believe that Jahve is 'The God'
when a friend seems to equal him?
Jahve and others of godly essence (Asgard, Olympus, Cthulthu, whatever)
are obviously a part of the DCU just as the Guardians, Anti-Monitors and
the Endless. There's a lot of cosmic badarses flying around. They obviously
fit into the DCU system of physical laws. Why should 'God' be any different?
Batman has met the Olympian gods. Doesn't mean he 'believes in' them.
A better question is: How can you be agnostic when you've met God?
Private America
03-10-2005, 05:58 AM
If christianity is part of a characters motivation then the things he does because of it is no more pandering than the things that non christian characters do are pandering to non christians.
Couldn't it be seen as part of the characters ddevelopment. Non christians become christians all the time as much as christians leave the church all the time.
Sorry...what I meant was just don't make a character anything....Christian, Gay, HIV-positive....unless the character is going to have some three-dimensional depth to him or her. Labels are uninteresting unless they're explored more in depth.
roguespirit
03-10-2005, 07:58 AM
Sorry...what I meant was just don't make a character anything....Christian, Gay, HIV-positive....unless the character is going to have some three-dimensional depth to him or her. Labels are uninteresting unless they're explored more in depth.
Oh ok..I hear ya
roguespirit
03-10-2005, 08:03 AM
Actually, no. Atheistism is more than just not believing in God or any
other religious force. It's putting your faith in science/logic. There's a big
difference between knowing something exists and worshipping it as your
god. A tribe somewhere might worship the largest tree in the forest as a
godly being, but I can see it's just a tree. Hal Jordan went nuts and
achieved the power to rewrite reality. The power of a god. More power
than most DCU gods, in fact. How can you believe that Jahve is 'The God'
when a friend seems to equal him?
Jahve and others of godly essence (Asgard, Olympus, Cthulthu, whatever)
are obviously a part of the DCU just as the Guardians, Anti-Monitors and
the Endless. There's a lot of cosmic badarses flying around. They obviously
fit into the DCU system of physical laws. Why should 'God' be any different?
Batman has met the Olympian gods. Doesn't mean he 'believes in' them.
A better question is: How can you be agnostic when you've met God?
I see our problem here, we are working to 2 different definitions of the term 'believe in'.
from where I am standing, if thats the biggest tree in the forest then I believe in that tree being the biggest tree in the forest. From your point of view to say you believe in that being the biggest tree in the forest means to worship it, which is not what I was saying. Correct me if I'm wrong.
From my viewpoint Batman has to believe in God, this does not mean that he has to worship him.
Joker2503
03-13-2005, 08:03 AM
I think that Batman knows there is a God (the Christian God, not Norse, Olympic, etc), he just doesn't like him very much. A loving, just God wouldn't allow the world to be the way it is. Bruce Wayne may have been a Christian growing up, but I think that ended when his parents were killed. Why should he put faith in a merciful, just God that allows things to happen like a no-name punk killing two innocent people in front of their eight-year-old son?
Batman is all about doing whatever you can to make sure that the innocent don't suffer at the hands of the wicked. That's why he looks on Superman and others so condescendingly: In Batman's eyes, they could do so much more. A God that stands off and lets the world destroy itself is no place for Batman to put his faith. That is why he only puts his faith in himself.
Batman believes in God, he knows there is a God, but Batman is not a fan of God. In fact, he may well hate God.
Mister Intensity
03-13-2005, 06:27 PM
Dixon portrays Nightwing as a Christian, yet he doesn't hesitate to have Dick cheat on Kory, the woman he loved when he first became Nightwing, during the Year One story.
Mister Intensity
Forsaken_One
03-13-2005, 08:29 PM
Wha? When'd he cheat?
An in any event, Kory isn't even human. So Dixon protrays Nightwing as Christian and then has him commit beastiality on at least a weekly basis. ;)
Dixon portrays Nightwing as a Christian, yet he doesn't hesitate to have Dick cheat on Kory, the woman he loved when he first became Nightwing, during the Year One story.
Mister Intensity
That's not conclusive. I saw nothing in Dixon's run on the book that proves one way or the other that Dick is a Christian. I saw a NIV Bible in his apartment in one of the issues. But that in and of itself means nothing. I have a copy of the Koran and the Book of Mormon and I'm neither Muslim or Mormon.
I think that Batman knows there is a God (the Christian God, not Norse, Olympic, etc), he just doesn't like him very much. A loving, just God wouldn't allow the world to be the way it is. Bruce Wayne may have been a Christian growing up, but I think that ended when his parents were killed. Why should he put faith in a merciful, just God that allows things to happen like a no-name punk killing two innocent people in front of their eight-year-old son?
Batman is all about doing whatever you can to make sure that the innocent don't suffer at the hands of the wicked. That's why he looks on Superman and others so condescendingly: In Batman's eyes, they could do so much more. A God that stands off and lets the world destroy itself is no place for Batman to put his faith. That is why he only puts his faith in himself.
Batman believes in God, he knows there is a God, but Batman is not a fan of God. In fact, he may well hate God.
That's what I think too. I think the character is more agnostic than athiest (no matter what Joe Kelly says). However I don't ever think that the character was a Christian. And when I say Christian I mean as a way of life and having a relationship with God. Rather than just a label. The Waynes were probably Christian more as a label than anything else. I can see them attending Church on Christmas and Easter but that's it.
Apathy Boy
03-13-2005, 11:12 PM
I see our problem here, we are working to 2 different definitions of the term 'believe in'.
from where I am standing, if thats the biggest tree in the forest then I believe in that tree being the biggest tree in the forest. From your point of view to say you believe in that being the biggest tree in the forest means to worship it, which is not what I was saying. Correct me if I'm wrong.
From my viewpoint Batman has to believe in God, this does not mean that he has to worship him.I could be wrong, but I believe Viking Bastard was trying to draw a distinction between meeting "a" god and meeting "the" God.
In a world where superheroes exist, how do you distinguish between someone who's god and someone who's "merely" superhuman? You change water to wine? Well, whoopee, Firestorm can do that. Walking on water? Eh, that's old hat for the Flashes (and at least one of them has parted the sea before).
Does Batman have any capacity for faith at all? Judging from the way he treats the people he trusts the most, I don't think so. So I can't imagine him being particularly religious. Whenever a "religious" phenomena occurs, Bruce probably attributes it to superhuman causes: someone who claims to be God is really just a high-level superhuman with a personality disorder, that "heaven" the JLA visited was just some whacked-out alternate dimension.
Beta Ray Bill
03-14-2005, 12:09 AM
I think that Batman knows there is a God (the Christian God, not Norse, Olympic, etc), he just doesn't like him very much. A loving, just God wouldn't allow the world to be the way it is. Bruce Wayne may have been a Christian growing up, but I think that ended when his parents were killed. Why should he put faith in a merciful, just God that allows things to happen like a no-name punk killing two innocent people in front of their eight-year-old son?
Batman is all about doing whatever you can to make sure that the innocent don't suffer at the hands of the wicked. That's why he looks on Superman and others so condescendingly: In Batman's eyes, they could do so much more. A God that stands off and lets the world destroy itself is no place for Batman to put his faith. That is why he only puts his faith in himself.
Batman believes in God, he knows there is a God, but Batman is not a fan of God. In fact, he may well hate God.
I've heard people say that for God to intervene, even if it is for good, would be taking away our free will. That there has to be that balance. Without poverty there would be no great acts of charity. No heros in a sense.
Private America
03-14-2005, 10:45 AM
I think that Batman knows there is a God (the Christian God, not Norse, Olympic, etc), he just doesn't like him very much. A loving, just God wouldn't allow the world to be the way it is. Bruce Wayne may have been a Christian growing up, but I think that ended when his parents were killed. Why should he put faith in a merciful, just God that allows things to happen like a no-name punk killing two innocent people in front of their eight-year-old son?
Batman is all about doing whatever you can to make sure that the innocent don't suffer at the hands of the wicked. That's why he looks on Superman and others so condescendingly: In Batman's eyes, they could do so much more. A God that stands off and lets the world destroy itself is no place for Batman to put his faith. That is why he only puts his faith in himself.
Batman believes in God, he knows there is a God, but Batman is not a fan of God. In fact, he may well hate God.
Despite all the physical suffering we see (and experience) on a daily basis (which is a result of God's justice in punishing sin) He has certainly providing a means by which we might never experience any suffering; namely, the death of His son, Jesus Christ. So while God does indeed punish sin, He has certainly provided a means by which we can escape eternal punishment.
Forsaken_One
03-14-2005, 11:10 AM
How'd we get to discussing God's role in the suffering of humanity from Nightwing having a bible in one issue?
Thats a good question.
Anyone feel like swinging this topic back on track?
Okay I will.
I'm going to say that Nightwing isn't a Christian, and has not commited to living the Christian way of life. But he does believe in God. And once in awhile has a good long chat with the Creator to tell Him how he's doing and ask for strength and the endurance to fight the good fight. How about that?
Viking Bastard
03-14-2005, 01:41 PM
I could be wrong, but I believe Viking Bastard was trying to draw a distinction between meeting "a" god and meeting "the" God.
Exactly!
There's a lot cosmic superthingies floating around the DCU calling themselves
gods. What makes 'God' any different from them in Batman's mind?
roguespirit
03-14-2005, 04:21 PM
Exactly!
There's a lot cosmic superthingies floating around the DCU calling themselves
gods. What makes 'God' any different from them in Batman's mind?
I understand that, we just need to be clear on semantics.
here's a question though - how many of DC's cosmic superthingies have the ability to create life?
maybe there is a distinction?
Forsaken_One
03-14-2005, 04:39 PM
I understand that, we just need to be clear on semantics.
here's a question though - how many of DC's cosmic superthingies have the ability to create life?
maybe there is a distinction?
Well, at least two; The Creator (wasn't that what it was called?) and Lucifer. I think the Oans can as well. The Endless created life in various forms in Sandman... at least Delusion and Dream did. Desire might have (not counting his/her child), I can't really remember. I think the Guardians could as well, and several are able to reverse death on previously living creatures.
Forsaken_One
03-14-2005, 04:41 PM
As for Nightwing, I can't see him being devout anything since it hasn't been mentioned yet. He might be Christian in the same sense I am, i.e. my parents nominally are Christian so if I have to identify myself with any moral and belief system that'd be it. But not devout like I see Huntress or other obviously religiously inclined figures.
I mean, if he was really devout, especially evangelically devout, wouldn't it have come up at some point?
Lorendiac
03-14-2005, 05:14 PM
I remember back in the early issues of Nightwing, there'd be occasional art refrences to Dick being a Christian (He had a NIV Bible, and some Christian CDs). Nothing was made of it then. I havent read Nightwing reguarly since like, 1999, and am wondering if anything was ever made of this, or does it continue in the background at all, or is Dick Jewish now, or whatever.
Harking back to the original question, I have some evidence that I don't think anyone else in this thread has mentioned yet. Even before Nightwing finally got his own monthly series, he had "kinda-sorta" gotten married in New Titans #100, written by Marv Wolfman. In that one, he and Koriand'r were finally resolved to tie the knot and make it legal. First they went down to City Hall and got a marriage license; then they had a big wedding ceremony. I think they had it on Garfield Logan's Long Island estate, but I've been wrong before - the point is that they had some sort of preacher performing the ceremony. He had just gotten to the part about "I now pronounce you-" when he died. Raven was currently in one of her "Look at me, I'm such a Bad Girl!" phases and was crashing the party. She started out by disintegrating the preacher.
Now, it seems highly unlikely that Kori, coming from Tamaran, had been the one who demanded having a Christian clergyman (probably some sort of Protestant denomination, at a guess) at the wedding. So I'd hazard a guess that Dick wanted it that way.
Later on, Dick got kinda-sorta married all over again in a Nightwing Annual written by Devin Grayson, this time at Wayne Manor, and I think he had a preacher present that time too, but it's been years since I reread that story and I could be wrong. (I was writing a scathing critique of it and needed to double-check my source material. Since then I've have no need to expose myself to it again. The whole marriage thing was a hoax for purposes of an investigation of the woman who thought she was marrying. By the end of the story, Dick was basically saying, "Oh, so you're not a serial killer after all, honey? Gosh, I could have sworn you were! That's why I trashed some of the paperwork so that we were never REALLY legally married! I feel so ashamed of myself for treating you this way!" Yes, the plot was awful.)
Anyway, I would say that while I don't know exactly what branch or branches of Christianity Dick was raised in, it appears that twice, when he kinda-sorta got married, he had enough religious feeling in him to feel it would be preferable to have a clergyman perform the ceremony. The first time around, he really meant to get married, and some have said that legally speaking he DID get married, except that Marv Wolfman later panicked and retconned it to say that no, he hadn't quite gotten married after all no matter what the state laws in New York may say!
Of course, then you can turn around and argue that the second time, in the Devin Grayson story, he swore "solemn oaths" as the clergyman asked them questions about the moral commitment they were both making, and Dick was lying through his teeth if he said that yes, he intended to honor and cherish her as his wife or however it goes, till death do us part. Hmm, certainly has a very easygoing attitude toward the importance of personal oaths made of your own free will in a solemn religious ceremony, doesn't he? As if he weren't really religious at all, but just going through a charade that some people might take seriously?
I hope all that helped. (Helped confuse the issue maybe, but "helped" in one way or another?) :)
Later on, Dick got kinda-sorta married all over again in a Nightwing Annual written by Devin Grayson, this time at Wayne Manor, and I think he had a preacher present that time too, but it's been years since I reread that story and I could be wrong. (I was writing a scathing critique of it and needed to double-check my source material. Since then I've have no need to expose myself to it again. The whole marriage thing was a hoax for purposes of an investigation of the woman who thought she was marrying. By the end of the story, Dick was basically saying, "Oh, so you're not a serial killer after all, honey? Gosh, I could have sworn you were! That's why I trashed some of the paperwork so that we were never REALLY legally married! I feel so ashamed of myself for treating you this way!" Yes, the plot was awful.)
It could aslo mean that Dick is just plain old fashioned and romantic. After all getting married by a minister or a priest in a church is a heck of a lot more poignant for some than getting married by a Justice of the Peace or a Judge at city hall. Plenty of people opt for church weddings and are not Christian/religious. They just want the old fashioned ceremony.
Forsaken_One
03-14-2005, 06:21 PM
Seriously, under the Christian faith can you marry an alien? I mean, they aren't human so wouldn't the closest thing you could equate them to be an animal, making it beastiality?
I mean I think that's just one example of why we should never try to shoehorn religion into a comic book universe like DC There are so many issues and confusing entities that screw up the traditional view of religion and the traditional answers to questions. Unless the author wants to take it upon themselves to answer those questions I say let's just accept them for what they are.
I mean, honestly, who cares what faith a fictional superhero is supposed to be?
Lorendiac
03-14-2005, 06:42 PM
Seriously, under the Christian faith can you marry an alien? I mean, they aren't human so wouldn't the closest thing you could equate them to be an animal, making it beastiality?
I mean I think that's just one example of why we should never try to shoehorn religion into a comic book universe like DC There are so many issues and confusing entities that screw up the traditional view of religion and the traditional answers to questions. Unless the author wants to take it upon themselves to answer those questions I say let's just accept them for what they are.
I mean, honestly, who cares what faith a fictional superhero is supposed to be?
To take that one point at a time . . .
I'm a Christian. No one in a position of authority in my church has ever explicitly told me, "It is against our beliefs for you to ever marry a person you love who is shaped exactly like a terrestrial female, and has just as much intelligence, charm, sense of humor, etc., as any terrestrial female instead of being a dumb animal like a monkey, but who says she is from another race (or species) from another planet in another solar system." Nor anything that I can recall that could reasonably be construed to mean that. So I guess it's permitted in my brand of Christianity! Whether or not other brands of Christianity in the real world have come up with explicit prohibitions against hypothetical extraterrestrial marriages is something I don't know about.
On the rest of it, however, I tend to agree with you that DC and Marvel are best off not playing favorites too much when it comes to having most of their best-known characters specifically adhere to, or specifically attack, any given popular brand of religion that exists in the real world. I think it's very pragmatic of DC and Marvel to have an occasional Jew or Catholic or whatever, but generally keep the specific religious beliefs of their high-profile superheroes in the background. So that readers can fill in the gaps using their own imaginations to get what they want, or else just skip the whole subject without worrying about it. As a general rule, I don't read superhero comic books in the hope of seeing rousing, controversial, detailed theological arguments between the characters.
I mean, I strongly suspect that Ma and Pa Kent made Clark attend some sort of Christian church every Sunday with them in Smallville, Kansas, but I can't prove it and I don't know exactly what kind of church it would have been, and since Clark doesn't really exist, I'm not losing any sleep over it. A Baptist reader who wants to see Clark as a Baptist is free to do so. A Methodist reader who wants to see Clark as a Methodist is free to do so. A Lutheran reader who wants to see Clark . . . I think you get the idea :)
I don't think there's anything wrong with a DC character subscribing to a particular faith (as long as it's handled properly). Personally when it comes to faith I would rather see it in terms of how affects it has on the characters life, than any sermonizing. In the Batman Family mini series there was a whole layout of how Helena "Huntress" Bertinelli spent her time. And one panel had her attending Catholic mass. I think that stuff like that is fine and shines a light into who the character is and some of the things that makes them tick.
As a Christian (and serious Batman fan) it doesn't bother me that Batman is supposed to be an athiest or agnostic. But it would bother me if some writer had had him making ugly statements (like I've seen on the community boards) towards the Creator.
Captain Jim
03-14-2005, 08:54 PM
Seriously, under the Christian faith can you marry an alien?
I must say, I've done a lot of weddings in my time, but I've never been asked that question. :D
Seriously, though, I think I'll have to go with Lorendiac on this one.
Gordon Smith
03-15-2005, 11:39 AM
As a Christian (and serious Batman fan) it doesn't bother me that Batman is supposed to be an athiest or agnostic.
I don't think that there is an official stance on Batman's religious views (or purported lack thereof), though I do seem to recall Chuck Dixon making a comment to the effect that Batman was Catholic. I don't see much textual evidence for that position, frankly. I think Batman might be a Deist, if only in practice, which is to say he may subscribe to the idea of a Creator who (or First Cause) set the universe into motion, but who takes no further active (or at least discernable) role in the affairs of His creation. Deists typically decline to endorse the claims or beliefs of revealed religion, relying exclusively on the tools of science to guide them in a search for truth. Bruce may not be an announced Deist, but his observable behaviour appears to trend in that direction.
I don't think that there is an official stance on Batman's religious views (or purported lack thereof), though I do seem to recall Chuck Dixon making a comment to the effect that Batman was Catholic. I don't see much textual evidence for that position, frankly. .
You might want to reference JLA issue 66 or the Obsidian Age TPB where Batman says to Wonder Woman:
"And that explains the near severing of my atheistic hand. Perfectly logical."
Eyeswithoutaface
03-16-2005, 10:04 PM
You might want to reference JLA issue 66 or the Obsidian Age TPB where Batman says to Wonder Woman:
"And that explains the near severing of my atheistic hand. Perfectly logical."
Meh.
You could be a lapsed Catholic, and still say something to this effect.
Meh.
You could be a lapsed Catholic, and still say something to this effect.
Take it whatever way that you wish. I was just providing textual evidence. Also I doubt that if he wasn't an atheist, and just a "lapsed Catholic", he would call himself one.
Eyeswithoutaface
03-17-2005, 10:58 PM
Take it whatever way that you wish. I was just providing textual evidence. Also I doubt that if he wasn't an atheist, and just a "lapsed Catholic", he would call himself one.
No. Read the quote carefuly. He's not calling himself an atheist.
The only thing that is conclusive about this quote is that he's using dry bat-humour for levity in the context of having just been confronted with the notion of losing his hand.
No. Read the quote carefuly. He's not calling himself an atheist.
The only thing that is conclusive about this quote is that he's using dry bat-humour for levity in the context of having just been confronted with the notion of losing his hand.
No of course you're right. Only his hand is athiestic. . The rest of his body is a 'lapsed Catholic'. :rolleyes:
Sheesh.
Joker2503
03-18-2005, 07:29 PM
I mean, I strongly suspect that Ma and Pa Kent made Clark attend some sort of Christian church every Sunday with them in Smallville, Kansas, but I can't prove it and I don't know exactly what kind of church it would have been, and since Clark doesn't really exist, I'm not losing any sleep over it. A Baptist reader who wants to see Clark as a Baptist is free to do so. A Methodist reader who wants to see Clark as a Methodist is free to do so. A Lutheran reader who wants to see Clark . . . I think you get the idea
In "For All Seasons," young Clark asks the local Reverend, who called him by name, for advice. This supports Ma and Pa Kent taking Clark to church.
As for Batman, I stand by my earlier statements. Batman thinks about God the same way Tyler Durden does. He knows God exists, but he hates him.
Azrael52
03-27-2005, 12:19 PM
I would love to see a Christian character, especially Nightwing, but in Outsiders, he says G.D. as does just about every character in the book. I hate it. I don't mind language, but my heros don't say G.D.
Forsaken_One
03-27-2005, 12:41 PM
I would love to see a Christian character, especially Nightwing, but in Outsiders, he says G.D. as does just about every character in the book. I hate it. I don't mind language, but my heros don't say G.D.
I've known plenty of Christians who say that. Sure they aren't priests or something, but they're still devout. It's just a common phrase in America right now, no more significant than s**t, f**k, son of a b***h, or any other swear word/phrase.
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