Is the "For Tomorrow" story worth reading?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Now, before you answer, let me give a little background on the kinda Superman stories I like and don't like. Take this into account before giving your recommendation.

I LOVE:

Alan Moore's Superman/Supreme stories

Grant Morrison's Superman in JLA

Loeb/Sale's Superman For All Seasons

Kurt Busiek's Secret Identity & Mark Millar's Red Son

Richard Donner's Superman films

Dini & Timm's Superman cartoons

Fleisher's Superman cartoons

Seigel & Shuster's early Superman stories

I HATED:

Some of John Byrne's rethinking of Superman (particularly the yuppie/football hero stuff)

Everything about Dan Jurgens' Super-Mullet era

Chuck Austen's Super-Spider-Man

[pennywisdom]

The real question is "Do you like how Azzarello writes"? For most people, that's simply the deciding factor.

Azz likes to craft slow stories that reward patience, insight, and a subtle, nuanced reading. Hence, a bunch of readers lost interest after two issues in a row of well-crafted dialogue. There is still action, but in order to really enjoy the story and take it all in, you have to be willing to sit down and read. The purpose of the story is to show us a side of Superman that we don't frequently see. This Superman must question his value, as he's up against something that is not immediately obvious and not immediately destroyable with his fists. Some comic book readers really don't want to challenge themselves, so "For Tomorrow" is lost on them. Others want pure, unadulterated action and they find the quiet moments in this story outweigh the loud ones.

I think for people who want something new, interesting and well-written, this is by far the best Superman story to come along in recent years. I love it enough to say it could very well be the best storyarc of the year (from any comic, period).

Then again, I'm a fan of the writer. He brings his own style of pacing, characterization, and scripting to the book.

[Private America]

It's worth it for the art alone...in particular, issue #211 has stunning art.

I like the story too....it will read even better in one sitting.

[pennywisdom]

It's worth it for the art alone...in particular, issue #211 has stunning art.

I like the story too....it will read even better in one sitting.
Both of these comments are true.

[stealthwise]

Well, I gave it three issues and gave up.

I like Azzarello's writing usually, but this grated on me. It doesn't feel anything like a Superman story and I don't care for Jim Lee's art much at all.

My suggestion would be to just wait for the trade and read some non-spoiler reviews until then.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I love this story. As someone else said somewhere in this forum, "For Tomorow" has one of the best depictions of Superman I've EVER seen.

Highly recommendable.

EDIT: you should pay special attention to pennywisdom's post. "For Tomorrow" is a slow story, with not much action, but with EXCELLENT dialog, and very thought-provoking.

[lonewolf23k]

Well, I'm not too fond of the "For Tomorrow" storyline myself, but mostly because I don't like the slow pace.

...On the other hand, judging from your tastes, I recommend the Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman 3-issue miniseries "Trinity", by Matt Wagner.

Matt Wagner is a man who understands how to write (and draw) Superman, and should be required reading for anyone hoping to work on the Superman books.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I agree with Lonewolf. TRINITY is an excellent book.

I think Azz' SUPERMAN is tedious and not at all worth the while. I am also not a big Jim Lee fan, as I've said many times before. The man is skilled, but the artwork in his SUPERMAN still comes across as tedious and about as dynamic as watching clouds. It's competent, but it is nothing we haven't seen from Lee before - mostly a decade or so ago, on X-MEN.

[cactusmaac]

It depends less on what Superman stories you like and more on whether you enjoy Azz's work.

[Andy S.]

I always thought that Dan Jurgens DREW Superman the right way. I liked the stories during the post-crisis era, like:

"Krisis of the Krimson Kryptonite"
"Day of the Krypton MAn"

and where he left Earth on a self-imposed exile for several months.


Edit: Sorry, posted this under the wrong thread.

[stealthwise]

Another note, from what I've seen in the issues I have, and the ones I've flipped through afterwards, the dialogue is the most cryptic and... how should I put this... inhuman? dead? robotic? I've ever read. I don't get Superman when I'm reading what he's saying, I'm getting this weird character that Azzarello is putting together and placing onto Supes. But again, maybe I need to read more of it.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Another note, from what I've seen in the issues I have, and the ones I've flipped through afterwards, the dialogue is the most cryptic and... how should I put this... inhuman? dead? robotic? I've ever read. I don't get Superman when I'm reading what he's saying, I'm getting this weird character that Azzarello is putting together and placing onto Supes. But again, maybe I need to read more of it.

The thing is that Azzarello is writing a very profound story, diving into Superman's mind.

[stealthwise]

The thing is that Azzarello is writing a very profound story, diving into Superman's mind.

Problem is, actions speak much louder than words. I think that this arc would read much better as a large trade, because it couldn't hold my interest.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Another note, from what I've seen in the issues I have, and the ones I've flipped through afterwards, the dialogue is the most cryptic and... how should I put this... inhuman? dead? robotic? I've ever read. I don't get Superman when I'm reading what he's saying, I'm getting this weird character that Azzarello is putting together and placing onto Supes. But again, maybe I need to read more of it.
Azzarello does that a lot. I really don't think the guy should write established characters, because they never have the right feel or sound. His Batman didn't sound the least bit like Batman.

Az does fine writing his own characters, though.

[stealthwise]

Az does fine writing his own characters, though.

Other than the dog porn and the very last arc he did on Hellblazer, I liked what he did with Constantine. And you're right, he does very well with his own characters.

Now may he never touch another big DC character again.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Other than the dog porn and the very last arc he did on Hellblazer, I liked what he did with Constantine. And you're right, he does very well with his own characters.

Now may he never touch another big DC character again.


Yeah, I always forget he did HELLBLAZER for some reason. And he mostly did good on there - but even there, it just doesn't seem like the same Constantine.

But yeah, I'd keep him off the established characters, big time.

[stealthwise]

What is Azzarello's background anyways? Is he a movie or novel guy who came in? A comic pro who worked his way up? I ask because I find it interesting who they're giving jobs to, with varying degrees of success (Whedon, Johns, Smith, JMS, Meltzer, Rucka).

[G. Wayne]

The real question is "Do you like how Azzarello writes"? For most people, that's simply the deciding factor.

Azz likes to craft slow stories that reward patience, insight, and a subtle, nuanced reading. Hence, a bunch of readers lost interest after two issues in a row of well-crafted dialogue. There is still action, but in order to really enjoy the story and take it all in, you have to be willing to sit down and read. The purpose of the story is to show us a side of Superman that we don't frequently see. This Superman must question his value, as he's up against something that is not immediately obvious and not immediately destroyable with his fists. Some comic book readers really don't want to challenge themselves, so "For Tomorrow" is lost on them. Others want pure, unadulterated action and they find the quiet moments in this story outweigh the loud ones.

I think for people who want something new, interesting and well-written, this is by far the best Superman story to come along in recent years. I love it enough to say it could very well be the best storyarc of the year (from any comic, period).

Then again, I'm a fan of the writer. He brings his own style of pacing, characterization, and scripting to the book.

completely disagreed there.

putting in scenes that have characters setting up the plot by talking about the effects of what happened, but purposefully having them skip around actually saying what happened? but they have no problem talking about it after the slllooowww reveal. comes off as contrived to me. (paraphrasing here) i have no problem with vague lines like "my sin was the problem" or whatever it was.

but i can only take so much of dancing around saying what happened in the beginning of a story.

"after ...it... happened, lois and what transpired. excuse me while i vaguely talk about myself in third person metaphors for a while...

yes, i know. even though i'm a possibly disillusioned priest, i'm a fan of vague metaphors too. that which happened affected the sheep in such a manner that it makes it difficult for the sheperd to tend them.

what if it is the sheperd who has lost his way and not the sheep? let us hope that events such as those do not happen again."

*days later*

"it is the fourth issue, enough indeterminate time has passed. we can finally refer to that which has happened at some point in time by a somewhat descriptive yet still vague name.

that may be an occurance which is it not negative in this situation that may be taking place in the head of the man i am talking about now. who knew a hardened military man, a priest, and super-hero could all talk in the same aggravating way?"

gah, at least now i know how friends feel about me talking indirectly (at least it's a bad habit i picked up) after reading an azzerello issue.

[Kid Seven]

I have to agree. I find Azzarello to be an easier read in trades. Nothing against him, I love 100 Bullets, but I find when I follow, or try to follow, his work in a monthly format it either runs too slow (as in Superman) or it becomes hard to keep all plots and subplots straight (as in 100 Bullets.)

[Yoda]

Up until about #211 I wouldn't have recommended this to anyone. But the last few issues have been great. And I would recommend it to anyone. Or at least anyone with a reasonable attention span.

The action picked up and there is one scene that is the coolest Superman moment I've ever read. I was in pure geek heaven for a couple of panels. I'm talking about Superman flicking a droplet of his blood at Wonder Woman and the droplet cracking her blade. Coolest thing I've seen in a while!

However, the most important part is that the story has started coming together. Or at least it's being spelled out for the slower among us. I don't know about you but I do enough heavy reading at work so I tend to look to my comics for superficial fun. But I can't wait to get enough free time to sit down and read this in it's entirety.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I haven't read 100 Bullets or any of his other work, so I don't know if I'd enjoy his writing yet.

[Kid Seven]

I really recommend checking out 100 Bullets. It's some of the best product Vertigo has put out in the last five years

[cactusmaac]

I haven't read 100 Bullets or any of his other work, so I don't know if I'd enjoy his writing yet.

It's an acquired taste.

I don't know if you'd get much out of it unless you'd read say the first fifteen issues of 100 Bullets before looking at his other work.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I haven't read 100 Bullets or any of his other work, so I don't know if I'd enjoy his writing yet.


100 BULLETS is a great comic. Probably the best work Azz has done. His Marvel MAX CAGE, on the other hand, sucked something fierce.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Geez, this doesn't sound like something that's worth pissing away the money on. I'm not gonna lay down a lot of cash for a story that I might not even "get" until I've slogged through half the story or pick up another fifteen issues of another book just to see if I even like his writing. And I'm not a big enough Jim Lee fan for that to really draw me in either, so I think I'll pass on this one and wait for Morrison & Quietly.

[stealthwise]

The action picked up and there is one scene that is the coolest Superman moment I've ever read. I was in pure geek heaven for a couple of panels. I'm talking about Superman flicking a droplet of his blood at Wonder Woman and the droplet cracking her blade. Coolest thing I've seen in a while!


That might be the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. :)

I liked Azzerello's "Banner" (Marvel Startling Stories) as well, though Samson seemed out of character.

[Kid Seven]

I'd completely forgotten about Banner. That was an awesome story. Wow, New Marvel seems so lomng ago now.

[pennywisdom]

I haven't read 100 Bullets or any of his other work
What the hell are you waiting for? :) As much as I love "For Tomorrow" you should make 100 Bullets a priority first.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

What the hell are you waiting for? :) As much as I love "For Tomorrow" you should make 100 Bullets a priority first.

I get enough crime stories from TV and movies, I don't really feel the need to spend money on comics of them as well...unless its absolutely fantastic.

[Kid Seven]

It is. In fact, the first trade is not that expensive and well worth it. Can't go wrong, especially if you like the genre to begin with! (And I didn't)

[cactusmaac]

Yeah, 100 Bullets is totally unlike any crime story you'll have seen elsewhere.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Yeah, 100 Bullets is totally unlike any crime story you'll have seen elsewhere.

And I gotta agree. Much as I am not fond of Azz's writing on SUPERMAN, I can't give enough praise to 100 BULLETS. It's definitely worth checking out at least the first trade.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Alright, alright, I'll check out 100 Bullets the next time I'm in the Western Hemisphere again. However, I just checked out the preview pages of "For Tomorrow" at DC Comics.com and that has to be the most pretentious, awful dialogue I have read in years.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I just checked out the preview pages of "For Tomorrow" at DC Comics.com and that has to be the most pretentious, awful dialogue I have read in years.

No argument here. I'd actually rate the Azzarello/Lee SUPERMAN as one of the worst books of the past year (though it doesn't match IDENTITY CRISIS for sheer suck value). It's particularly painful to see major talents put out such a big, steaming turd.

[stealthwise]

No argument here. I'd actually rate the Azzarello/Lee SUPERMAN as one of the worst books of the past year (though it doesn't match IDENTITY CRISIS for sheer suck value). It's particularly painful to see major talents put out such a big, steaming turd.

Makes it all the more painful that they both sold so well. Sometimes, it seems that comics are going very "Hollywood" in terms of their approach to grabbing hold of what sells and then following along that vein, regardless of quality (and in the case of Liefeld, Austen and co., talent).

I was just bitching about this story with a friend the other night and he's read the whole thing up to this point.

[Kid Seven]

I dropped "For Tomorrow" after the third issue. There just wasn't anything to hold me.

[Private America]

Up until about #211 I wouldn't have recommended this to anyone. But the last few issues have been great. And I would recommend it to anyone. Or at least anyone with a reasonable attention span.

The action picked up and there is one scene that is the coolest Superman moment I've ever read. I was in pure geek heaven for a couple of panels. I'm talking about Superman flicking a droplet of his blood at Wonder Woman and the droplet cracking her blade. Coolest thing I've seen in a while!

However, the most important part is that the story has started coming together. Or at least it's being spelled out for the slower among us. I don't know about you but I do enough heavy reading at work so I tend to look to my comics for superficial fun. But I can't wait to get enough free time to sit down and read this in it's entirety.

I agree......#211 was easily one of the best single issues I've read in the past year or so....

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Problem is, actions speak much louder than words. I think that this arc would read much better as a large trade, because it couldn't hold my interest.

Perhaps. It really depends on people's particular tastes. I'm really enjoying the story, and can't wait for the next issue to come out.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I agree......#211 was easily one of the best single issues I've read in the past year or so....

I agree too.

[Alan2099]

It's too slow and confusing for my tastes. Frankly, I miss when comics could tell a story in an issue or two. This keeps dragging things out and nothing seems to be happening.

[Kid Seven]

See for me it's not the issue of a multi-part, arching story. I read Planetary and 100 Bulets for God's sake! It's more that after the third issue there still wasn't anything to keep me going and so I dropped it.

I understand saving a final verdict 'till the stories done, but I don't have unlimited funds and the story at that point was no guarantee, and was not holding my intrest.

[Lurker]

after the third issue there still wasn't anything to keep me going and so I dropped it.

Good reason to drop it.

I've always been intrigued by it and certain issues have been awesome while others have been "huh?" and some have been both. I find it worthy of my $$$.

[Kid Seven]

After this thread I think I'll be checking out the trade to make a second decision on buying it and reading it.

[oldtimer]

That might be the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. :)

I liked Azzerello's "Banner" (Marvel Startling Stories) as well, though Samson seemed out of character.

I thought "Banner" was great and I love 100 Bullets.

I think dismissing readers that don't like his Superman/Batman stuff as short attention span is incorrect.

I don't connect with his work on it and I love more engrossing spins on established characters. Alan Moore did a great job and usually had a lot less artistic talent to back him up then Azz does. Would anyone have bought the Superman/Batman stuff without Lee and Risso involved?

[stealthwise]

I thought "Banner" was great and I love 100 Bullets.

I think dismissing readers that don't like his Superman/Batman stuff as short attention span is incorrect.

I don't connect with his work on it and I love more engrossing spins on established characters. Alan Moore did a great job and usually had a lot less artistic talent to back him up then Azz does. Would anyone have bought the Superman/Batman stuff without Lee and Risso involved?

Sales without Lee and Rizzo would probably have been less, particularly in the former case. However, to say that Moore didn't have any artistic help is a bit... well, wrong. :)

Guys like Dave Gibbons, Steve Bissette, JH Williams III, are all excellent artists, though I guess you mean in terms of name recognition for sales.

[oldtimer]

Sales without Lee and Rizzo would probably have been less, particularly in the former case. However, to say that Moore didn't have any artistic help is a bit... well, wrong. :)

Guys like Dave Gibbons, Steve Bissette, JH Williams III, are all excellent artists, though I guess you mean in terms of name recognition for sales.

No arguement there, I was thinking of some of the individual super hero stories Moore wrote-check out "Across the Universe". Gibbons is one of my top 3-he rocks! and yes, I was thinking of name recognition for sales.

[JoshuaB]

So now that it's over.....opinions on the whole thing?

[Kilgore Trout]

I thought is was a big giant dud.

I can't imagine what the "extra" pages added or what the book read like without them and I'm left with the feeling that Superman is the villain in this story...

I mean HE created the vanishing device in the first place, so HE is ultimately responsible for the vanishings of thousands of people, the deaths of those people while they were in the world HE created and all the tension and fear wrought by HIS actions...

Imagine if someone else did that, even on accident?

Imagine if Luthor did that?

You'd probably want Superman to take him out, wouldn't you?

Instead, Superman amuses himself with the fact that everyone will eventually forget all the TROUBLE HE caused...

Sorry to say but, I have never read a single more confusing and horrible Superman story.

[TJ Shoun]

...a superb Superman tale which will go down as one of the most definitive Supes' stories ever - especially after people get some retrospective on it.




I mean HE created the vanishing device in the first place, so HE is ultimately responsible for the vanishings of thousands of people, the deaths of those people while they were in the world HE created and all the tension and fear wrought by HIS actions...


...which was the point Azz was getting across. When Supes had renounced a huge part of his Earthen upbrining and his humanity -- he became too proactive in our lives and the result was a disaster, a huge mistake. All of which goes back to the underlying theme of faith - why a savior figure can only offer salvation, not enforce it, destroying the fundamental principles of free will. Once he stepped beyond those boundaries, as he did with Metropia, he figuratively became Kal El, not Clark Kent.

One thing though: What was up with Pilate and Equus? It looked like Pilate threw himself onto Equus to keep them both in the deteriorating Phantom Zone. But then they show up on the last page, on some island fighting each other. :confused:

[surferfan23]

I want my money back. 'Nuff said.

[Lurker]

One thing though: What was up with Pilate and Equus? It looked like Pilate threw himself onto Equus to keep them both in the deteriorating Phantom Zone. But then they show up on the last page, on some island fighting each other. :confused:

They were part of the Vanishing; when everybody else returned, so did they. Why they ended up on an island, only Azz knows I suppose.

[Lurker]

I want my money back. 'Nuff said.

Put your issues up for auction at eBay.

[SonnyC79]

not really, its very confusing and really hasnt been good at all

[Mia]

Okay.....I'll admit it. I'm not the brightest smartie in the box. The sharpest knife in the drawer. So can someone please explain a) what this story was about b) the point of the whole thing?

Thank you

[Henyo]

not really, its very confusing and really hasnt been good at all

Correct. If not for the art, I would not have read it.

[mikeviixi]

Let me first start off by saying that I like Brian Azzarello both as a writer and as a person. He is enthused about comics and comics character as many, many fanboys are. However, I don't think he should have been selected as the Superman writer for this arc to feature Jim Lee's interpretation of the Man of Steel.

The "For Tomorrow" arc, while good, does not seem to me a Superman story. I think it should probably fit more with a Green Arrow storyline, or even perhaps the Martian Manhunter.

For one thing, I don't understand the insertion of the priest character as a plot device to anchor Big Blue to rest of humanity. Didn't his parents anchor him well enough to rest of us?

I also did not feel comfortable with the insertion of a living Mount Rushmore, which I found more odd than entertaining.

I am willing though to give the storyline another chance by reading the collected version. Maybe it's me and I missed something and there is also that there is a strong possibility that the storyline will read better as a collected series than as a monthly pamphlet.

That's my 2 cents.

-Mike

[tjarvis]

I'm not a regular Superman reader, I normally find the character a little stale for my tastes. That said, I did read the first collectd volume of "For Tomorrow" and really dug it. It just reads like a really fresh voice on Superman to me, and it definitely had my attention.

That said, I can definitely see that it reads much better as TPB then it would have in single issues.

So as a casual Superman fan at best, I really enjoyed it and thought the story opened up some nice insights into the character. I guess I could see why it might be offputting to the more hardcore faithful though.

[TJ Shoun]

That said, I can definitely see that it reads much better as TPB then it would have in single issues.



Oh yeah - definitely.

I was lukewarm about it until I sat down and read the first 11 issues in one sitting. Then, I "got it"... Azz's message, the theme of faith, and the insights into Superman as a savior figure.

It's really a great story with outstanding art, but I wouldn't suggest reading it only in monthly installments. :)

[Josh]

The absolute epitome of what I consider "the wrong kind of Superman story." I want to see Superman be an inspiring hero, not a self-loathing whiny, dramatic jackass.

Bored at 3:00 AM, I hope very much that you never bring yourself to have to read this story. Wait for Morrison/Quietly on ALL-STAR SUPERMAN. Also, if you haven't already, read SUPERMAN: BIRTHRIGHT by Waid/Yu. That is how Superman should be done!!

[Kilgore Trout]

...which was the point Azz was getting across. When Supes had renounced a huge part of his Earthen upbrining and his humanity -- he became too proactive in our lives and the result was a disaster, a huge mistake. All of which goes back to the underlying theme of faith - why a savior figure can only offer salvation, not enforce it, destroying the fundamental principles of free will. Once he stepped beyond those boundaries, as he did with Metropia, he figuratively became Kal El, not Clark Kent.

I dunno TJ...So now we have a self doubting Christ on the cross Superman?

Does Superman actually see himself as a Christ-Like figure?

He renounced his upbringing and his humanity only when he couldn't remember that HE was the cause of this whole episode and the disappearance of his WIFE.

I don't see the faith angle at all... No one asked Superman to build the vanishing device, apparently it was his idea and I don't see how anyone in the DCU could see Superman as this perfect Christ-Like figure... He's failed MANY times... I mean that has essentially been the whole Berganza mantra since 1998 i.e. how un-Super Superman is...

"Who will save me" indeed... The most powerful being in the DCU feels sorry for himself... oh Boo-hoo Superman, poor you. Wanna trade lives?

He should have said: Who will save the long time readers?

In my way of thinking this was like a secret backhanded slap at the whole concept of Superhero books and their ideal. Azzarello doesn't like them, thinks they're childish or simplistic and so he writes an anti-hero story where the Superhero is the cause of all the trouble, not the savior.

The REAL villain in FOR TOMORROW is Superman...

Zod was nothing more than window dressing in this story, just ANOTHER in a long line of villains whose ONLY motivation is revenge against a vague long forgotten 'wrong'. ZOD could have been ANYONE.

I never liked this story BUT I thought that maybe Azz would pull it out with the last issue... It didn't happen, and I believe that eventually Superman will get his wish; everyone will forget this sad chapter...

I know I will.

[pennywisdom]

Kilgore - You post on this board exclusively to bash FT. Whatever will you do now that it's over?

[Kilgore Trout]

Kilgore - You post on this board exclusively to bash FT. Whatever will you do now that it's over?

:) Aw shucks, I hoped you hadn't noticed...

I'm done now. I read my final issue of Superman in his regular continuity books and will now go Superman-less until Morrison's ALL STAR Superman sometime later this year.

P.S. Just so's ya know: I very much WANT to like Superman...

I never thought I'd say this but I want a Superman who resembles the first several issues of John Byrnes Superman run in 1986... I want to read about a Superman who is happy and positive, a Superman who is confident, smart and proactive. I want to leave the darkness, the introspection and doubt to other Superheroes.

I wanted to LOVE F.T.

Sometimes things don't go the way one plans.

[Lurker]

Kilgore, I think the whole DCU is gonna be a bad place for you in the coming months. FT #12 was my last issue of continuity Supes too, not counting the last part of the CSA arc in JLA next month.

Thank the comic gods for the All-Stars

[CodeMonkey]

...a superb Superman tale which will go down as one of the most definitive Supes' stories ever - especially after people get some retrospective on it.


God I hope not.

I think instead it will go down as the "Second Attempt by DC to boost sales of a flagship book by teaming a writer with Jim Lee so he can draw pretty pictures."

The first being Hush, of course.

I could never read Azarello when he did monthlies. I got 100 Bullets as TPBs at first, and I enjoyed them. When I caught up to the monthly issues and started buying them regularly, I dropped the book after 4 issues.

The same seems to hold true for when he's doing Superman. Now that the series is over, I *might* go back and re-read them all, and still wonder why it was laid out in the confusing labyrinth of half-veiled references to what will be revealed 7 issues later. And it *might* make my distaste for the arc decrease some. But more likely than not, it'll go into the comic box never to be read again.

[Jkid099]

Eh ... upon re-reading, I finally get it.

In proposal, a great story concept ... sort of leans toward those Sandman-esque deeper meanings to everything, only focusing on Superman, and how he relates to the world. In execution is where it faltered.

If you read the whole storyline at once, and actually KNOW how it's going to end, it makes more sense (especially in light of where Orr and those shadowy men and OMAC have been showing up lately). It's not really Superman being self-loathing or anything like that, but merely attempting to speak out on his thoughts. Before he realized what he had done (in creating the Vanishing device, etc.), he only had some sort of "feeling" of responsibility ... and was merely wondering if he had gone too far.

Unfortunately, Azzarello was attempting to tell this sort of "you have to read it a few times to REALLY get it" story through a monthly series, and it's hard to really see what the heck is going on several issues before it ends. Which resulted in losing a lot of people along the way.

Great story, horrible execution.

[Dr. Drake Ramoray]

I won't say that it's the most boring, self-indulgent story I've ever read, but it's damn close. As other posters have said, all the beating around the bush dialog, The JLA evidently not recognizing the Phantom Zone projector, Wonder Woman being ready to kill one of her best friends over his decision to use the projector on himself, just lots of DC icons acting like anybody but themselves.

Read Birthright or even Secret Identity for a good story.

Or Any of the Superman/Batman storylines, for a better time.

[HartyPotter]

Well... FT had pretty art sometimes... As for the actually storyline... I'd rather not think about it.

[Max]

I wont get #215 until next week but like many have suggested I sat down and re-read the first 11 issues. I couldnt agree more that this reads better in trade. Actually, after re-reading I was enjoying it through 212. Then 213 and 214 scrambled my brain a little. So I am a little lost, I will have to go back and re-read those 2 before 215.

However, by the sounds of it 215 is nothing special. At the end of the day I think I am going to give it a thumbs down and wish I had spent the $$ on somthing else.

cheers

[pennywisdom]

As for the actual storyline... I'd rather not think about it.
That's just it.

Oh, well. I maintain my original position on this topic. Now that it's finished, I'm not sure if I'm going to keep on this title. Ed Benes might win me over, though. His art is awesome.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I decided to read the story as a whole, so I waited until it was finished before reading anything. The only thing I had read up prior was this was the preview of the first issue, which completely turned me off with its horrifically pretentious dialogue. Welp, taken as a whole, here's my impressions:

80% of the writing was overly-serious and pretentious navel-gazing representing much of what's wrong with mainstream super-hero comics. The other 20% had some pretty neat ideas that I thought were genuinely entertaining or interesting.

The art was gorgeous. Jim Lee's art is limited, it is what it is, but for what he does, this is some of the best I've seen from him. There are some truely cool images throughout this story. It's too bad the art was let down by the writing.

[cactusmaac]

The other 20% had some pretty neat ideas that I thought were genuinely entertaining or interesting.



What did you find interesting?

[Lurker]

What did you find interesting?

Granted I'm not Bored at 3am, But I found the introsprection of Superman's character centering on his feelings towards his father and both their motivations very interesting.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

What did you find interesting?

I thought the idea of Superman trying to create a way to save Earth from Krypton's fate was a neat idea. They could have developed it better though.

Superman getting directly involved in a war and destroying all the combatants weapons had potential.

Hidden within the steaming piles of pretentious, choppy, lead-footed dialogue were some interesting observations about Superman.

The Middle Eastern woman had nice potential as a baddie. It's not often you get to see Arab women get to be anything in comics but cowering victims.

Bringing back Zod in his classic, easy-to-understand incarnation was a welcome idea.

I dunno, a lot of little things had potential. I think, maybe with a better editor, this could have been a pretty good story.

[Blueferret]

Hell, the only things that I did understand at the end of this story was the Fortress of Solitude. Like a lot of people have said before, this may be one of those stories that needs to be read in one sitting. The problem with me though, is that I'm so irritated with the whole thing already that I'm not sure I want to waste my time with it.

[bannermanonemillion]

I have not read the final issue but I can comment on the dialogue and on how the story has come together for me so far.

The dialogue as many have pointed out sounded pretentious and navel-gazing. My problem was that it sounded like Superman trying to sound clever, in fact, all of the characters tried to sound clever but it just served to make them sound as if they were all one character with one vocabulary with different personalities.

Batman:Personally....I'm glad you're taking this personally.

or

Superman: It's breathtaking, even though it's impossible to breathe.

or

Lois: Not everyone that was brought into Paradise, bought into Paradise.

And those are just a few examples I can think of off the top of my head but notice how neat turns-of phrase are used in the place of real characterization?

Also, FT has all the pieces of a great story, the problem is, is that Azzarello decided to leave us (you know, the people that the story is made for in the long run) out of the story. We don't know what's happening but everyone else does. We don't know how, but again it seems that everyone else does and no one uses up so much as a paragraph to really pull us in at first.

Complain all you will about "Hush" (overhyped art, poor climax/reveal, etc.) but at least when it started it felt like a Batman story and you felt like you were trying to solve the mystery alongside Bruce, and if you paid attention your attention paid off. Yes, a cheap turn of phrase on my part, but you get my drift.

I could say more, but I'll say this and end it. To paraphrase Mike Nelson off MST3K:

"The comic that takes the bold step of not including the reader."

[TomGun13]

Hell, the only things that I did understand at the end of this story was the Fortress of Solitude. Like a lot of people have said before, this may be one of those stories that needs to be read in one sitting. The problem with me though, is that I'm so irritated with the whole thing already that I'm not sure I want to waste my time with it.

I have to agree. I do this with all of Azzarello's stuff (I'm a big fan by the way). It was the only way that I could actually read Broken City. I also read 100 Bullets in tpb. I find it reads better and is more cohesive.

[Patman]

I read the first 4 issues of FT when they first came out, and then decided to just hold off on the last 8 issues so I could read them in one sitting, and it was better to digest it all in one sitting because the momentum of the storyline just felt better paced (though some of stuff in FT is leaves you scratching your head in places).

[chicainery]

I read the first 4 issues of FT when they first came out, and then decided to just hold off on the last 8 issues so I could read them in one sitting, and it was better to digest it all in one sitting because the momentum of the storyline just felt better paced.

I basically did the same thing. I read the first 3 issues while they were coming out, then I bought a lot of cheap comics and trade paperbacks and have been reading them. I recently read all 12 issues in one sitting and they were pretty good. Not the best story I've ever read, but quite good. Oh yeah, the art's nice too.

[HartyPotter]

if you can get all twelve issues cheap (like around or below cover price) then give it a shot. But it's not worth putting out serious dough for.

[CE_Rap]

*A bit of Spoiling*

Here's my theory on Azz's "For Tommorow." Before i get started however, i want those who read this to consider the following:

My curiousity into the DCU has only recently been peeked. I've always appreciated the heroes, but was always a Marvel man. Having said that, I'm a huge fan of all things associated with the DCU via animation, from Batman: The Animated Series (still one of the best animated cartoons ever made, IMO) all the way to Justice League Unlimited.

Now in terms of DCU heroes Batman was always the best to me. At the end of the day he's just a man who has honed his physical and mental abilities to their absolute limits. A more impressive feat than crash landing on earth and having "all the powers under the sun." Superman was just too much of a softie, and even though he could kick your butt from here to the black hole that was once Krypton, he never would. His quest for peace and justice, though noble, took their toll, as to me they seemed too imaginary in the world we live in. I mean, Superman has no tyrannical desires, he knows not selfishness, hate, or an egotistical nature, EVER. It seemed to me that Batman was the more realistic hero. True Batman doesn't hate or kill or any of that, but the man seemed to react to the human condition on a level Superman always appeared above, just because he's "Superman." This is important to address because i think this is what the theme of "For Tommorrow" is all about.

I'll admit, the first real DC story i've made an effort to read religiously was "Hush." I knew a good deal of the back story behind the DCU heroes but "Hush" was teh first time i went to a comic store with the motive of getting a DC comic. Once that was done and i heard that Lee was teaming up with Azzarello to do a 12 issue story for Superman, i figured i'd check it out. Like it's been stated in this Thread, i said i'd check out the first few issues and if i liked it, i'd keep going (that and if i could afford to keep getting new issues).

Now i also have to admit that this is the VERY FIRST Superman comic i have ever read. I don't count the milestones like Superman's death 'cause everyone's read that. Furthermore, i know of the important story arcs in Superman's career like him getting married and Krypto and the many different Supergirls and Superboy and The Cyborg, etc, etc. But this is the first time i've gone to the comic store and picked up a Superman title.

I think that for someone like me who's really just trying to understand Superman: why he's such an icon, why he's still popular, why he's the favorite of fans everywhere, this is exactly what we needed to read. Here i am seeing Superman as this big softie who wears colorful tights when in actuallity, he has come to terms with what we consider "human". He admits to himself the selfishness in bearing the weight of the world on his shoulders and in creating his paradise. He shows lack of judgement when he realizes Lois is a victim of the vanishing. He creates personal rifts between his two closest friends, Diana and Batman by convincing himself that no one can stop him from doing what needs to be done, to the point of Diana ready to kill him to stop him. His boldness in convincing Batman that just as "Clark" is his costume, "Bruce" is Batman's mask. His constant affirmation that his name is Kal-El, and the fact that Clark is a whole other being in his Paradise (they are NOT the same man). ALL these things hurled my understanding of Superman out the window. I've never been so pleased to be proven wrong.

The thing is, i think Azz is obviously a certain kind of writer. He values intellectual dialogue along with time released charcter growth. It didn't bother me at all that the pace was slow because it was important for me to really understand The Man, not the Superman. The usage of the priest got a bum rap and to this day i don't understand why. I'm not the most religious person, but i can relate in terms of feeling like everything you believed in so much seems false all of a sudden. With everything happening involving religion it seems like such a taboo topic, and i appreciate Azz addressing the issue. HE took the idea that this is a priest, a man of God, who lives in a world wear a man can fly faster than a speeding bullet. This very man can save you from death just by calling out his name. In the end, his faith is crumbled and Superman takes this omnipotent mantle to him (a living God of Mercy). I think this is further proved by the image in #215 where Superman is reaching out to save Zod and Zod recoils, falling to his doom (suposedly). Did anyone else catch the reference to Michaelangelo's Sisten Chapel in which God is reaching out to Adam? I advise you to look real close. If you consider this, that would mean Superman is God, and Zod is man. Since Zod recoiled, he represented man's seperation from Superman. Basically that as he tries to save man, he seperates himself as their savior. WE can honostly say that his weakness is that he cares too much, and that is a conclusion that i would have never approached without this story. His reaction in the last panel of that two-page says it all.

I consider "For Tommorow" one of the best stories i've read in a while. I believe it to be on par with "Hush." I imagine the sneers i'm getting for saying that and i'm sure some will think i don't even have the right to say it since i'm a DCU newbie, but i believe it. I think the beauty of "Hush" was the intricacy of the mystery, the fast-paced "Clue" game, and the emotional sentiment tied between Batman and his extended family. "For Tommorow" only lacked the mystery. THough significantly slower, "For Tommorow" is a story that stresses on the intellectual more than the detective. It was a deep, introspective look into one of the greatest heroes on many emotional levels. The possibility that Superman could ever feel SELFISHNESS, i honostly thought was impossible, and that was the cause of my initial aversion to him. "He's above all human emotions that are considered 'bad.' That's so fake!" i'd say.

Superman's love for his Lois, his friends and people on earth fuel his need to protect and this story was the one that put that into perspective for me. Notice how by the middle of #215, Superman no longer harps on the fact that his name is Kal-El, telling Lois she can call him whatever she wants. She then answers by calling him Superman, the name that does not identify him, but defines who he is. I think i needed this to be my first real Superman story. True, it's slow paced. True, you might want to see Jim Lee show off more action panels like in Hush. But like any movie, a very strong story can be absolutely captivating even with minimal action. It's refreshing to see a comic that believes in slowly building rather than shoving the reader's face with action and splash pages. I think it makes the battles more worth while when the character is fully developed.

I fully testify that this is a solid read. It's worth the money and is very insightful. I suppose if you want a totally action-packed kick ass book, you might be slightly disappointed in the first couple issues. If, however, you're willing to let yourself engage in the philosophyical approach to the story, you may find yourself very pleasantly surprised.

*----Thanks Brian and Jim ;)

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I fully testify that this is a solid read. It's worth the money and is very insightful. I suppose if you want a totally action-packed kick ass book, you might be slightly disappointed in the first couple issues. If, however, you're willing to let yourself engage in the philosophyical approach to the story, you may find yourself very pleasantly surprised.

*----Thanks Brian and Jim ;)

Interesting review. Always good to her a well-thought out review beyond the usual: "Lee is over-rated! Azz is a hack!" stuff.

I think there are really only two types of comics fans: the ones who are either Superman or Batman fans. And this appeared to me to be a Superman story written for Batman fans. Which is an interesting idea, but I think Superman is best being exactly what he is, which is a modern fairy tale about a god who pretends to be human.

However, I am glad that DC had the balls to try something this different with Superman. Nothing wrong with a noble failure.

[BoosterBronze]

OK, I know this is an old thread, but I just read "FT" at Borders, and I was blown away. I had picked up the first two issues when they came out, and tossed it aside as a bore fest.

Reading the whole thing in one sitting, I seriously LOVED it. Here's my question- Could this story have been told, just as well, without the mind-dullingly slow pacing? Or would a more enjoyable month-by-month pace have killed what Azzarello and Lee were attempting?

[ExoKnight]

I just read through For Tomorrow Vol. 1 and Vol. 2. Thought it was an excellent read, great dialogue, wonderful art, and a very good story. I do have a few questions because when I finally finished it I felt somethings were unanswered or I simply missed.

1. Was General Nox actually General Zod? If Nox was Zod, did superman know he was? If he wasn't Nox, how did Zod get inside this alternate plane?

2. Who was the man behind Mr. Orr? His boss.

3. Apparently the Vanishing Device was created by superman, but in the beginning he doesn't know how a million people disappear. He finally finds out about the device when he confronts Nox, but it seems like he doesn't know anything about the device even though he created it. So did I miss something?

4. So essentially this Alternate Plane is actually the Phantom Zone redesigned? Or is the Phantom Zone sepereate from it and this place was just built from a piece of the PZ?

[Guts/Batman]

There is also a possibility that For Tomorrow was another one of Max's illusions...

I thought that Orr was a pawn of Luthor. Who could also have had Max as a pawn, as well. *Brain explodes*

It's been awhile since I read it but I think General Nox was General Zod.

[ExoKnight]

OK, I know this is an old thread, but I just read "FT" at Borders, and I was blown away. I had picked up the first two issues when they came out, and tossed it aside as a bore fest.

Reading the whole thing in one sitting, I seriously LOVED it. Here's my question- Could this story have been told, just as well, without the mind-dullingly slow pacing? Or would a more enjoyable month-by-month pace have killed what Azzarello and Lee were attempting?

I agree. I just read For Tomorrow tonight, read through Vol. 1 and Vol. 2. It was completely blown away. This was a great story. I loved everything about the book. At the end I had some question, but overall this top-notch. It is the best Superman story I have read.

[bosshog7169]

alright i have finally decided to reread for tommorrow n it is a lot better the second time through. I never noticed this Nox and Zod connection until now. I'm not all the way through the reread, but either way i can't see any explanation for this. I mean they are drawn with virtually the same exact face and a similar attitude, and jim lee is not one to do this by accident. I also don't buy the whole max lord was fooling him for twelve issues thing, because his fortress remained messed up after this storyline n that couldn't have happened if none of this was real. Plus that would be a weak cop out. So i guess i am just hoping DC is planning on eventually explaining this storyline. Does anybody out there know of a site that has a review or critique of this storyline and that could shed some light on some of the more perplexing aspects of it?

[Guts/Batman]

There is a 6 page thread about For Tomorrow on this forum.

[Lurker]

I just read through For Tomorrow Vol. 1 and Vol. 2. Thought it was an excellent read, great dialogue, wonderful art, and a very good story. I do have a few questions because when I finally finished it I felt somethings were unanswered or I simply missed.

1. Was General Nox actually General Zod? If Nox was Zod, did superman know he was? If he wasn't Nox, how did Zod get inside this alternate plane?

No, he wasn't. Zod was already there, imprisoned by Jor-el.

2. Who was the man behind Mr. Orr? His boss.

Don't know for sure, but I believe it was Max Lord.

3. Apparently the Vanishing Device was created by superman, but in the beginning he doesn't know how a million people disappear. He finally finds out about the device when he confronts Nox, but it seems like he doesn't know anything about the device even though he created it. So did I miss something?

Yes, you did. He willed himself to forget he created it. Lois, however, still remembered.

4. So essentially this Alternate Plane is actually the Phantom Zone redesigned? Or is the Phantom Zone sepereate from it and this place was just built from a piece of the PZ?

It is the Phantom Zone.

Go back and read the last 4 issues again.

[bosshog7169]

I just finished rereading this and lurker is right about everything. Nox and Zod are not the same person. Zod was in the phantom zone already when superman built his paradise there. I didn't really get this story when i read it over the course of a year. You have to reread it as a whole to see whats going on. I used to be a little disappointed with this story, but in retrospect it is now one of my favorite comic stories ever. The story basically explores the religious significance of Superman as a christlike figure. Zod is Satan. There's too many metaphors n stuff for me to really go into. Aside from that brilliance, azarello also gives us Orr, who we can now see was working for max lord the whole story. Knowing what we now know about the OMACS also gives the story increased significance. Go reread this story n then wait in anticipation for Zod to someday escape the phantom zone. Also i can't wait to see the father (OMAC 4) come back. I forgot he had that superman killing blade still imbedded in his forearm. Great stuff!

[Lurker]

lurker is right about everything.

Behold!

Ha, just glad to help out. I hear Lex Luthor: The Man of Steel (TP out in December--plug-plug) also connects to For Tomorrow and Birthright, which I think should have been the 1st 12 issues of Ultimate Superman, but then again I finally get to read Grant's take in November so all is right in the world.

[Sean Whitmore]

I mean they are drawn with virtually the same exact face (edited) and jim lee is not one to do this by accident.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I'm sorry, I just found that funny. :D


SEAN

[tjarvis]

For what it's worth, I just read the two trades and thought this might be my second favorite Superman story ever (behind Red Son). It's rare to see Superman actually be the strong and hopeful character he's supposed to be, while still being intense and powerful.

He had a tendancy to come across as a passive boyscout or as an angry tyrant depending on the writing, neither of which really expresses the character as he should be.

I loved that the meta message of the story focused on Hope and Faith, which is the core of whom Superman should be.

I also want Father OMAC back at some point, there's a lot of potential in the character.

[Apathy Boy]

I stopped reading "For Tomorrow" halfway through because the story didn't seem to be going anywhere. The story had been getting better with each issue, though, so I always intended on picking up the rest of the story eventually. Now that I have...

Wow. That was a damn good story. I was pleasantly surprised by how well Azzarello pulled everything together and I loved the character insights. Just as "Broken City" gave us the definitive Bruce Wayne, "For Tomorrow" gave us - well, not the definitive, but at least a really interesting look at Superman. And it added considerably to the Superman mythos as well.

My quibbles: I'm not crazy about what happened to the priest because it seemed like too much of a superheroey plot development, though I admit I'll be interested to see what happens the next time he pops up. And I hated Lee's designs for Zod and Equus. The Z-shield was pretty sweet, but the spikes were soooo '90s.

[cactusmaac]

I went and reread this a short while ago. I'd probably call For Tomorrow the most intriguing Superman story published in years, but I'm unsure whether it belongs in the category of interesting failure or misunderstood success.

Reading the whole thing in one go does make it a lot easier to grasp the flow of the story and does enable you to understand things like "My sin was to save the world" which caused confusion the first time around.

However, the dialogue is maddeningly obtuse at times. I've read a lot of Azzarello's stuff (Jonny Double, Batman\Deathblow, Lex Luthor, Banner, Broken City, about 50 issues of 100 Bullets) and far too many of Orr's scenes are simply not clear enough for the general reader, nor are they typical of Azzarello's other work. Both this and the timeline of the story are needlessly confusing and really demanded some guidance from the editors. The character relationships also leave something to be desired. The villainess Halcyon was just a trainwreck of a character. What was her relationship to Wonder Woman? Why was she pissed at Supes? Why did WW later help Orr against her? Where the heck did she come from?

Still there is a lot to enjoy here. In a number of instances the wordplay and the double meanings employed make for wonderfully layered reading - especially on rereading - and I haven't got as much mileage from a comics series since Watchmen. I like a lot of the little touches here, like Superman being shown to be a smart scientist, his eyes flashing red when he's pissed, the staredown with Aquaman, the dialogue between him and Batman, the focus on him as an alien on Earth and his pondering of what his deliverance from Krypton's destruction by Jor-El implied for the nature of his guardianship of Earth.

The latter especially is heady stuff and makes a nice change wherein serious thought is actually given to the nature of Superman, when all too often writers of the character are content to trot out the same old tropes and cliches.

Most of all, I really like the new Zod. Azzarello perfectly captures the brilliant, psychotic megalomaniac from Superman 2 and Lee's art superbly emphasises how much of a hard-hitter he is. It's well past time Superman got another decent major antagonist given how Doomsday and Darkseid have petered out as threats.

This all being said, the story does fail in the most important regard: it doesn't seem to have much to say about Superman himself. From reading Azzarello's posts at the DC boards while the arc was coming out, he indicated that he expected For Tomorrow to make an imprtant statement on Superman's inspirationalism and the nature of heroism itself, wherein he derided how superhero comics reduced battles between good and evil to simplistic punch-ups.

Which is a valid point to be fair, but I don't see much evidence of his POV being made explicit by the time For Tomorrow concludes.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

While I find this story superb, I agree with you, cactusmaac, in one thing. Where the hell did that Halcyon come from? And what were her motives?

However, For Tomorrow poses a way in which Superman had never been written before, I think: we see how Superman thinks about everything, and how he takes his decisions. A thoughtful and wise man, who wields the power "to strip the planet of its atmosphere".

[Damo]

FINALLY got the issue I was missing from this storyline, so I FINALLY got to sit down and read it all and I FINALLY know that it really wasn't worth my bother.

Yick. Urp. Ug. Erk. Ack. Bleh.

They decide to do a sequel to Birthright, get Jim Lee for it, go for broke and decide to FINALLY lift the "no other Kryptonians" ban and put in Zod... and this is the story they decide to do that in? Good Lord what a... very... poor... decision!

[ACertainMrDoe]

Sorry for this shameless act of necromancy, but...

Where the hell did that Halcyon come from? And what were her motives?

I just finished the TPB of "For Tomorrow", and I'm really interested in this question as well - Wikipedia has nothing to say about her...

Please help me out!

[666MasterOfPuppets]

[...] I fully testify that this is a solid read. It's worth the money and is very insightful. I suppose if you want a totally action-packed kick ass book, you might be slightly disappointed in the first couple issues. If, however, you're willing to let yourself engage in the philosophyical approach to the story, you may find yourself very pleasantly surprised.

*----Thanks Brian and Jim ;)

ACertainMrDoe's act of necromancy gave me the opportunity to read this review. One I agree completely with.

I thank Brian and Jim, too.