Does Anyone Know Why New Avengers Is Late? (AKA "Complain...You Know You Want To")

[pureclint]

Any one have any info on the NEw Avengers no comming out this week?

I talked to the owner of the shop I go to, and he said it was all Finch. Boy that guy just is out and out Lazy, messing up crap in AD and NA now hurting the shipping scheduels. He can draw a cool Splash page, a decent SPidey and Good females but ugh man get to work!

[Gladiator X]

I think it's supposed to ship on the 9th.At least that's what I recall seeing on an updated shipping list.

I also believe that there's a fill-in artist on on #7,8, and maybe #9 for the Sentry spotlight story so he can get caught back up.

A week or two late doesn't bother me too much.What I hate is when they don't ship for months ::cough::Iron Man::cough:: :mad:

[Gaz]

I think it's supposed to ship on the 9th.At least that's what I recall seeing on an updated shipping list.

I also believe that there's a fill-in artist on on #7,8, and maybe #9 for the Sentry spotlight story so he can get caught back up.

A week or two late doesn't bother me too much.What I hate is when they don't ship for months ::cough::Iron Man::cough:: :mad:
Oooh! The 2nd arc is about Sentry? And who's the backup?

[Gladiator X]

Oooh! The 2nd arc is about Sentry? And who's the backup?


Yeah,It's a spolight on him and hopefully it will address the many questions that there are about him(and The Void)

I'm not sure who's doing the fill-in art.I think it might be McNiven but I'm really not sure.

[BlackKnight]

it is McNiven I believe, as for the lateness, this makes it what about what two or three weeks total for a 4 issue run bad, but not as bad as 3 months for IM. Made how do they expect that comic to suceed.

[Toonimator]

I talked to the owner of the shop I go to, and he said it was all Finch. Boy that guy just is out and out Lazy, messing up crap in AD and NA now hurting the shipping scheduels. He can draw a cool Splash page, a decent SPidey and Good females but ugh man get to work!
He could've had other obligations, a bad cold, any number of things. And his particular choice of style isn't exactly easy to whip out in no-time, like John Romita Jr, (not that his is an "easy" style, but he can crank those pages out with it!). He's hovering around Hitch-level of detail, and who knows how much reference he's using? Some panels/pages could take awhile; kinda depends on Bendis' script, too.

Lots of factors, but please, a week or two delay is nothing. It's not like Battle Chasers, after all.

[protege]

Hasn't new Avengers always been at least a week late since the get go?

[Lurker]

it is McNiven I believe, as for the lateness, this makes it what about what two or three weeks total for a 4 issue run bad, but not as bad as 3 months for IM. Made how do they expect that comic to suceed.

HA!

How does the industry expect to succeed with this growing trend? Make no mistake about it, it is a trend and with today's attention span, if you don't get that book in a kid's hand every 30 or so days . . . there's plenty of other stuff to occupy his attention . . .


and put a dent in his wallet.

[Kirk G]

I think it's supposed to ship on the 9th.At least that's what I recall seeing on an updated shipping list.

I also believe that there's a fill-in artist on on #7,8, and maybe #9 for the Sentry spotlight story so he can get caught back up.

A week or two late doesn't bother me too much.What I hate is when they don't ship for months ::cough::Iron Man::cough:: :mad:

And, they call these guys, 'The Young Guns"?
Quick on the draw?

[Titan Slade]

Oooh! The 2nd arc is about Sentry? And who's the backup?

I think McNiven is the fill in as others have stated. I have also heard that Angel Medina(Blackwulf, Hulk, and currently Spawn), is possibly doing some fill ins as well.

[pureclint]

He could've had other obligations, a bad cold, any number of things. And his particular choice of style isn't exactly easy to whip out in no-time, like John Romita Jr, (not that his is an "easy" style, but he can crank those pages out with it!). He's hovering around Hitch-level of detail, and who knows how much reference he's using? Some panels/pages could take awhile; kinda depends on Bendis' script, too.

Lots of factors, but please, a week or two delay is nothing. It's not like Battle Chasers, after all.


So this is the 2nd or third time it is late and they ALREADY have a fill in artist schedueled yet you defend his work?

What referneces is he using? I hope he throws them out as he messes up all the time.

I personally would not even mention him and Hitch in the same breath or sentance but hey thats subjective.

As to Bendis as far as every thing I have ever read statses he is always like 3 plus months ahead on his scripts, it is one of the reasons he can put out so many titles.

Yeah it is not a bad delay, but that does not mean we should be complacent about the delay.

[Giant Guy]

There is no excuse for lateness. A deadline is a deadline and these artists need to realize this. IF they cannot make their deadline Marvel needs to step in with a fill in artist to keep the book on schedule. I love Finch's work, I love Hitch's work, but they need to start working longer days to make sure they get this stuff out on time. At my job I don't get to blow deadlines and turn in work late. I didn't get to do it in school either. No excuses. Not even a week should be tolerated.

[T Rath]

If one is incapable of drawing a monthly comic book in one month's time, that person should not be hired to draw monthly comic books.

I'm not saying the artist should be hanged and quartered, simply go into a different art field where the deadlines are more compatible with his/her ability. And if the artist still has trouble meeting those deadlines, then maybe, as good as one might be, art should not be their occupation.

This seems so simple to me, and I confused why comic readers don't demand this.

[BoosterBronze]

If one is incapable of drawing a monthly comic book in one month's time, that person should not be hired to draw monthly comic books.

I'm not saying the artist should be hanged and quartered, simply go into a different art field where the deadlines are more compatible with his/her ability. And if the artist still has trouble meeting those deadlines, then maybe, as good as one might be, art should not be their occupation.

This seems so simple to me, and I confused why comic readers don't demand this.

Personally, I'd be (and am) willing to wait for the books with truly amazing art. "Astonishing X-Men" and "Ultimates" are both worth the wait.

Drawing comics is HARD. Guys like Jim Lee work amazing hours. Why do you think MacFarlane was so happy to put down his pencil and just count his cash and write? No fault to him. Remember Joe Madeurea? I beleive he found more money for less work doing art for video games, and the comics world has been poorer for it.

Let's play the truth card- If Jack Kirby was drawing today, whipping out books at the speed he used too, most people here would say he's spread too thin and his art isn't good enough. Let's appreciate what great artists we get to enjoy. I wish books would ship on time too, but why be a jerk and call somebody lazy?

[Will.S]

While I happen to really enjoy David Finch's art, I agree he should handle the art with more precision with character appearances and in a timely manner. If he can't they should find someone to fill in for him. Hard to say who would be good enough for it month after month though...perhaps make Steve McNiven the full time penciler or Mark Bagely when not doing Ultimate Spiderman.

I could understand and forgive if it was just one week late for the whole year but with the errors and continuing lateness it becomes annoying especially for what should be Marvel's premier book alongside the X-titles and my most anticipated book just about every month.

[BlackKnight]

Personally, I'd be (and am) willing to wait for the books with truly amazing art. "Astonishing X-Men" and "Ultimates" are both worth the wait.

Drawing comics is HARD. Guys like Jim Lee work amazing hours. Why do you think MacFarlane was so happy to put down his pencil and just count his cash and write? No fault to him. Remember Joe Madeurea? I beleive he found more money for less work doing art for video games, and the comics world has been poorer for it.

Let's play the truth card- If Jack Kirby was drawing today, whipping out books at the speed he used too, most people here would say he's spread too thin and his art isn't good enough. Let's appreciate what great artists we get to enjoy. I wish books would ship on time too, but why be a jerk and call somebody lazy?

Hmmm Lazy is a strong word, how about, can't meet deadlines, or is not doing the job they were hired for in a timly manner as depicted by a monthly comic.

Sorry there is no excuse for not getting a job done, they are payed to produce a monthly comic, if they can't find another artist who can. I am sure there are many talented artists who can do it.

[pureclint]

I stick by Lazy (or at best Careless) have your read his response to the Jigsaw mistake or the NEW Avengers Directors Cut regarding all the mistakes he made there?

[Jake V]

Sorry there is no excuse for not getting a job done, they are payed to produce a monthly comic, if they can't find another artist who can. I am sure there are many talented artists who can do it.
Is he? You have a copy of his contract handy?

[Huzzah!]

Guys i just got the news




The Avengers is pregnant

[ChoasMAC]

I only have one question to y'all. How many books (Marvel and DC) were late on a monthly or bi monthy schedule ten years ago? I wasn't totally "into" comics as much then, and it just bugs me that soooooooooooo many books are late this often. This isn't something that I've noticed until a few years ago. Now you wonder if your book will come out EVERY month. This and fianacial reasons have led me to cuting my comic expenses in half. Do companies care about monthly anymore, or do they just want to lean towards the trade market at book store? So very frusrated. :evilangry

[BlackKnight]

Is he? You have a copy of his contract handy?

I don't need his contract, NA is a monthly comic, so it should be coming out monthly not every 5 to 6 weeks, and if an artist can't meet a deadline then they should replace him. I might give them one chance but this comic has been late three times, due to the artist.

Have you ever heard of doing the job you are payed for on time.. Hmmm if you havn't can I have your job.

[BlackKnight]

I only have one question to y'all. How many books (Marvel and DC) were late on a monthly or bi monthy schedule ten years ago? I wasn't totally "into" comics as much then, and it just bugs me that soooooooooooo many books are late this often. This isn't something that I've noticed until a few years ago. Now you wonder if your book will come out EVERY month. This and fianacial reasons have led me to cuting my comic expenses in half. Do companies care about monthly anymore, or do they just want to lean towards the trade market at book store? So very frusrated. :evilangry

Obviously it was harder to track 10 years ago, but no I don't remeber comics being late as consistently as now, and with as many being over a month late.

[Jake V]

You said...
they are payed to produce a monthly comic
I'm just wondering how you know this specifically for a fact.

If you don't, you might want to rethink passing off your personal beliefs or opinions as fact.

[tony2074]

they coud have delayed the book before it began, a la ultimates 2, in order to allow finch to backlog some issues. seems to be workig for ultimates 2.
as for the fill ins, itys mcniven who is awesome, and mendina (sp) so they should be great anyway!!

[Brian Cronin]

I know Nat Gertler uses the argument a lot, and it's a fair one, that unless we know for sure that the artist is specifically being paid to produce a monthly comic, it is not fair to say that he is not doing the job he is paid for.

However, it's an equally fair point to note that the odds are against Finch being held to a lower standard than other artists, who specifically are on a monthly schedule. Still, "odds are against" does not mean "there is no possibility."

-Brian

[Brian Cronin]

As for lateness, comics have always been late.

In the past, though, comics used to just throw in an inventory story or a reprint story to fill in the blank, even in the middle of an ongoing storyline.

More recently, say, 10 years ago, it became more likely to use a fill-in artist to get the book back on schedule or reduce the page count and add a backup.

Perhaps you folks do not recall, but a little over 10 years ago, when Harras and Epting were doing the Avengers, there were delays almost every month. #366, I believe, was delayed 2 months. #365, to get back on track, only contained a short story, plus a bunch of pin-ups. Other issues had backups as well, to get the book on time.

Today, comics like Ultimates are following the pattern set by books like Watchmen (which had a loooong, multi-month layoff between issues at one point) in that they would rather wait for the book's actual creative team to finish the book rather than have a fill-in artist and get the book out on time.

-Brian

[ChoasMAC]

As for lateness, comics have always been late.

In the past, though, comics used to just throw in an inventory story or a reprint story to fill in the blank, even in the middle of an ongoing storyline.

More recently, say, 10 years ago, it became more likely to use a fill-in artist to get the book back on schedule or reduce the page count and add a backup.

Perhaps you folks do not recall, but a little over 10 years ago, when Harras and Epting were doing the Avengers, there were delays almost every month. #366, I believe, was delayed 2 months. #365, to get back on track, only contained a short story, plus a bunch of pin-ups. Other issues had backups as well, to get the book on time.

Today, comics like Ultimates are following the pattern set by books like Watchmen (which had a loooong, multi-month layoff between issues at one point) in that they would rather wait for the book's actual creative team to finish the book rather than have a fill-in artist and get the book out on time.

-Brian

Thank you O' wise Brain of Cronin. You've always had the answers. :D :p

[T Rath]

As for lateness, comics have always been late.

In the past, though, comics used to just throw in an inventory story or a reprint story to fill in the blank, even in the middle of an ongoing storyline.

More recently, say, 10 years ago, it became more likely to use a fill-in artist to get the book back on schedule or reduce the page count and add a backup.

Perhaps you folks do not recall, but a little over 10 years ago, when Harras and Epting were doing the Avengers, there were delays almost every month. #366, I believe, was delayed 2 months. #365, to get back on track, only contained a short story, plus a bunch of pin-ups. Other issues had backups as well, to get the book on time.

Today, comics like Ultimates are following the pattern set by books like Watchmen (which had a loooong, multi-month layoff between issues at one point) in that they would rather wait for the book's actual creative team to finish the book rather than have a fill-in artist and get the book out on time.

-Brian

All good points. And I seem to recall a pair of Don Heck stories appearing out of nowhere in the middle of a George Perez run in Avengers, a two-parter that had NOTHING to do with the ongoing story. So lateness is and always has been a problem.

But the publishers were prepared. Maybe we weren't happy (I was awfully confused by those Heck stories and thought I missed a couple of Avengers issues) but the comic was published. And sold more than today. So to say that late and not publishing is a better course of action seems not quite right.

I still think that an artist has to recognize their limitations. If they can draw 8 pages per month, plan on doing back-up stories for a career. Nothing wrong with that. Perhaps they can handle nothing more than two or three splash pages per month? Then work on covers ala Adam Hughes and John Bolton.

However it is incumbent on the PUBLISHER to ensure their product can get into the hands of the consumer in a timely fashion. If the artist can only do eight comics per year, plan on four fill-in artists/stories. Or perhaps it's a rotating series of artists per story arc, ala Sandman. Finally there's waiting until ALL the issues are in the can (best course of action for an unreliable artist) or at least half the issues before solicitation. That means money up front and the possibility of not recovering enough back. Maybe the artists should be given a further financial stake, reducing their page rates with a higher back-end based on sales. I know that would motivate me to keep moving until the job is done.

Mind you, I don't expect any of this to fall on wise ears. Marvel EIC himself allows his buddies (Smith) to ignore deadlines and he himself has no idea how to allocate his own time. So I expect more and more lateness. Just wonder how the lateness will factor in the new 7-11 deal. Think the chain will still commit shelf space to an empty shelf?

[Kirk G]

All good points. And I seem to recall a pair of Don Heck stories appearing out of nowhere in the middle of a George Perez run in Avengers, a two-parter that had NOTHING to do with the ongoing story. So lateness is and always has been a problem.

But the publishers were prepared. Maybe we weren't happy (I was awfully confused by those Heck stories and thought I missed a couple of Avengers issues) but the comic was published. And sold more than today. So to say that late and not publishing is a better course of action seems not quite right.


Funny you should mention fill-in stories appearing out of nowhere.
Anyone remember the fill in issue in the original Avengers taken from the 6 issue run of the Beast in Amazing Adventures, when the Beast "killed" Iron Man on the cover, but the story was not inside?

I don't recall Marvel every shipping late or missing an issue until after the 1960s were complete...and then, it was Capt. Marvel 19-21 that had a LONG gap between them before being cancelled. The book appeared to be in trouble long before, with a change in direction every six months, art team every six months or so, and direction altered... Just didn't catch on.
Then, even under starlin, in the middle of the Watcher saga, another filler!

It always seemed to me that books arrived in the order and month they were supposed to in the 60s, but then things started to fall apart in the 1970s when younger artists/creators entered the market.

Also, the first issue that "vanished"...that is, never showed up on the newstand, was an issue of the Avengers... #89 or so...the first issue of the famed "Kree Skrull war... "The only Good Alien..." with , again, Capt. Marvel on the cover... (I have often wondered if someone tried to "corner the market" with that first issue, expecting it was the first issue of the Neal Adams run, that started with 93.... and continued the Kree-Skrull war. I have recently read of speculators who about the same time, attempted to corner the market with Kirby's New Gods #1 and similar issues, but I never knew someone could interupt the supply chain like that, until I thought back on the mysterious missing Avengers issue #89 that never arrived in my home town...)
http://www.plexico.net/avengers/covers/avg089.jpg
(Now, I know some Annuals didn't show up...Like FF Annual #4, and #5, and #6, cause they were 25 centers...and thicker than the usual 12 cent books... that was a retailer decision...
and, of course, the infamous ORIGINAL Spectacular Spiderman volume 1, issues # 1 and 2 that were the first OVERIZED comic magazines, featuring the return of the green goblin, and the political campaign stories (eventually reprinted in continuity). But again, those were stocking of issues concerns...not fitting into the comic rack due to oversize issues that weren't in the continuity at the time.)

Comments?

[Gladiator X]

Funny you should mention fill-in stories appearing out of nowhere.
Anyone remember the fill in issue in the original 6 issue run of the Beast in Amazing Adventures, when the Beast "killed" Iron Man on the cover, but the story was not inside?

Yeah but wasn't a reprint of an issue of Amazing Adventures where Beast fought Iron Man?


Also, the first issue that "vanished"...that is, never showed up on the newstand, was an issue of the Avengers... #91 or so...the first issue of the famed "Kree Skrull war... "The only Good Alien..." with , again, Capt. Marvel on the cover... (I have often wondered if someone tried to "corner the market" with that first issue, expecting it was the first issue of the Neal Adams run, that started with 92.... and continued the Kree-Skrull war. I have recently read of speculators who about the same time, attempted to corner the market with Kirby's New Gods #1 and similar issues, but I never knew someone could interupt the supply chain like that, until I thought back on the mysterious missing Avengers issue...

I'm not sure what you're sayin' here.Do you mean this comic never came out?

http://www.plexico.net/avengers/covers/avg091.jpg

[Voncaster]

What I don't understand is why comic companies can't just do work ahead of time. Why couldn't Quitely, Sale and Hitch be obligated to finish a story arc on a before it is released/advertised? Artists capable of doing monthly work could bye those premiere artists more time.

Anyone who is complaining that artist X can't do a monthly comic with 22 pages of insane detail has probably never picked up a pencil and tried to illustrate their own comic. I think the physical and mental demands of quality illustration is probably not fully grasped by everyone here.

[BlackKnight]

You said...

I'm just wondering how you know this specifically for a fact.

If you don't, you might want to rethink passing off your personal beliefs or opinions as fact.

Is this comic Monthly? I thought it was... Are the artist payed to do art on a monthly book.. You do the math..

*shakes head*

[BlackKnight]

What I don't understand is why comic companies can't just do work ahead of time. Why couldn't Quitely, Sale and Hitch be obligated to finish a story arc on a before it is released/advertised? Artists capable of doing monthly work could bye those premiere artists more time.

Anyone who is complaining that artist X can't do a monthly comic with 22 pages of insane detail has probably never picked up a pencil and tried to illustrate their own comic. I think the physical and mental demands of quality illustration is probably not fully grasped by everyone here.

Then why where they capable of it 5 years ago, 8 years ago 10 years ago..
Also why are there artists that are capable of it and are amazing artists and yet you defend ones who can't.
This is a business not a bunch of friends trying to draw a comic.
If I am payed to do something by a deadline I do it, or i am repermanded and if I don't meet the deadline so many times, I would be fired. Yet some fans just keep defending this, and we wonder why it gets worse and worse.

[Kirk G]

Funny you should mention fill-in stories appearing out of nowhere.
Anyone remember the fill in issue in the original 6 issue run of the Beast in Amazing Adventures, when the Beast "killed" Iron Man on the cover, but the story was not inside?

Yeah but wasn't a reprint of an issue of Amazing Adventures where Beast fought Iron Man?


Also, the first issue that "vanished"...that is, never showed up on the newstand, was an issue of the Avengers... #91 or so...the first issue of the famed "Kree Skrull war... "The only Good Alien..." with , again, Capt. Marvel on the cover... (I have often wondered if someone tried to "corner the market" with that first issue, expecting it was the first issue of the Neal Adams run, that started with 92.... and continued the Kree-Skrull war. I have recently read of speculators who about the same time, attempted to corner the market with Kirby's New Gods #1 and similar issues, but I never knew someone could interupt the supply chain like that, until I thought back on the mysterious missing Avengers issue...

I'm not sure what you're sayin' here.Do you mean this comic never came out?

http://www.plexico.net/avengers/covers/avg089.jpg

Yeah, I got my numbers mixed up. It was a reprint in Avengers of the Amazing Adventures where Beast had thought he killed Iron man. Thanks for jogging the memory.

As for the start of the Kree Skrull war, I think my numbers of off just a tad. It was two issues earlier, #89, where Mar-Vel is sitting in an electric chair that didn't arrive in my town nor in most of Michigan when it came out. I guess the Neal Adams "Three Cows Shot me Down" arrived with issue #93... the doublesized one, right?
Sorry, memory gets fuizzy now that I've turned 49 today....!!!! :eek:

[StoneGold]

Hey Brian, don't know if you're still reading at this point, but awesome thread name change.

[tricksterpup]

Yeah, I got my numbers mixed up.
Sorry, memory gets fuizzy now that I've turned 49 today....!!!! :eek:
Kirk, you are just pulling our leg, you are usually never wrong about the Avengers!!!

[Voncaster]

Then why where they capable of it 5 years ago, 8 years ago 10 years ago..
Also why are there artists that are capable of it and are amazing artists and yet you defend ones who can't.
This is a business not a bunch of friends trying to draw a comic.
If I am payed to do something by a deadline I do it, or i am repermanded and if I don't meet the deadline so many times, I would be fired. Yet some fans just keep defending this, and we wonder why it gets worse and worse.

Why do I defend Hitch, Sale, Quitely and other artists that have a reputation for turning in late work? Because I think the work they turn in more than makes up for the extra time it takes for them to make it. How much more enjoyable are the Quitely issues of NXM than the Kordey issues? Sure Kordey's came out on time, but how much did the issues suffer. I do happen to side with the illustrators on this issue. I think the comic book companies could plan this out better, and by all of their artists more time. Instead of advengers, captain america, iron man, and a bunch of minis, what if Marvel took a couple of high profile artists and had them rotate on advengers and gave them each ample time to work out thier artwork.

It seems to me that a lot of fans want it both ways. They want Hitch level of detail on a Kirby release schedule. There are a few artists that can handle it, but not everyone. Sometimes deadlines are not met and its up to the artists and the company to figure out a workable solution between quality and quantity.

[Mart]

Let's play the truth card- If Jack Kirby was drawing today, whipping out books at the speed he used too, most people here would say he's spread too thin and his art isn't good enough. Let's appreciate what great artists we get to enjoy. I wish books would ship on time too, but why be a jerk and call somebody lazy?

Oh, please, I get a choice between the guy who, even at his weakest, could produce many fun, dynamic pages and a fella who occasionally gives us pretty ordinary work? I'll take Jack, cheers.

There are so many great professionals out there who can produce monthly books but they don't get the work cos Wizard doesn't declare the 'hot' or their faces don't fit . . . it's a shame, for them and the readers.

[Crimson]

We're getting two issues this month and it'll be a little late... even though I thought it was meant to come out out on the 9th for a while now.

I'm not so bothered.

The only delays that tick me off are the ones that are over a month or so late.

[Mart]

Kirk, a belated happy birthday, and my thanks for posting that Avengers cover with Marv - that was the first US Marvel comic I ever saw, sitting around my primary school. I didn't get to read the story till a few years later, when it was reprinted in (if memory serves, and it rarely does) Marvel UK's Titans comic.

I'm all for comics companies having inventory fill-ins - I'd see it as an occasional treat while waiting for the regular storyline to resume. Or Marvel could always bring back the Crusty Bunkers inking squad.

(I can see why Brian Hitch would take awhile - all those space-wasting splash pages of courthouses he gets given to do, but Tim Sale, with his not-too-detailed wobbly people? I mean, I like him and all, but finely detailed?)

[comic_lover]

Any one have any info on the NEw Avengers no comming out this week?

I talked to the owner of the shop I go to, and he said it was all Finch. Boy that guy just is out and out Lazy, messing up crap in AD and NA now hurting the shipping scheduels. He can draw a cool Splash page, a decent SPidey and Good females but ugh man get to work!Bendis is overworked.Yeah,right.... :rolleyes: Seriously most of the time,when a book is late,it has to do with the artist.

[Herald of Asgard]

Because Bendis has finally been overrun with guilt for destroying the Avengers?

[mastaflan]

Personally, I'd be (and am) willing to wait for the books with truly amazing art. "Astonishing X-Men" and "Ultimates" are both worth the wait.

Drawing comics is HARD. Guys like Jim Lee work amazing hours. Why do you think MacFarlane was so happy to put down his pencil and just count his cash and write? No fault to him. Remember Joe Madeurea? I beleive he found more money for less work doing art for video games, and the comics world has been poorer for it.

Let's play the truth card- If Jack Kirby was drawing today, whipping out books at the speed he used too, most people here would say he's spread too thin and his art isn't good enough. Let's appreciate what great artists we get to enjoy. I wish books would ship on time too, but why be a jerk and call somebody lazy?


This is goin to contribute to the down fall of comics. Image was prolly still like that and its that kinda stuff that gets people to stop buying comics. They are doing the industry a great disservice. I am not going to accept lateness. I am a Soldier in the US Army and lateness costs lives and money. No excuses unless somebody is dying or a direct relative died or just physically incapable of getting the job done. Its not a a fair comparisson I know but if he can't get it done then Marvel should have planned way in advanced for his problems.

Marvel and the DC can also look for talent overseas like they did in 70's when they hired and took advantage of a bunch of third world artists who were way better and way cheaper than the artist in America at the time. They were proffessional and did the work even though they were being taken advantage of. By the way Much love to those Filipino Artists who helped save the comicbook industry back in the 70's because without ya'll we wouldn't have comics today.

[BlackKnight]

Well from what I understand NA 4 will now be out next week, that makes it three weeks late, and the NA 5 has been pushed back to april.. Nothing would be good enough to justify this.

[Jake V]

Marvel and the DC can also look for talent overseas like they did in 70's when they hired and took advantage of a bunch of third world artists who were way better and way cheaper than the artist in America at the time. They were proffessional and did the work even though they were being taken advantage of. By the way Much love to those Filipino Artists who helped save the comicbook industry back in the 70's because without ya'll we wouldn't have comics today.
Soo... you're advocating slave labor-errrr "taking advangage of third world artists" to save comics? Ummmm... well, that's one way of looking at things.

I can't put into words how proud I am that the US goverment supplies you with automatic weapons. It truly brings a tear to my eye.

[Sagrado]

Soo... you're advocating slave labor-errrr "taking advangage of third world artists" to save comics? Ummmm... well, that's one way of looking at things.


actually if you look at it in their perscpective, it's still not slave labor. they are being paid much much higher doing american comics than local comics though it's still low compared to what american artist gets.

local artist here still get paid P100/page, thats around two dollars. that's why they are also fast, beacuse they need to finish pages faster to earn more.

so i'll say put lan medina on this book and i will come back after dropping it at issue 3.


:D

[oldtimer]

Then why where they capable of it 5 years ago, 8 years ago 10 years ago..
Also why are there artists that are capable of it and are amazing artists and yet you defend ones who can't.
This is a business not a bunch of friends trying to draw a comic.
If I am payed to do something by a deadline I do it, or i am repermanded and if I don't meet the deadline so many times, I would be fired. Yet some fans just keep defending this, and we wonder why it gets worse and worse.

After reading everyone's posts on the subject of late art, I would conclude the following:

-we all love more detailed artwork (Hitch, Finch, McNiven)
-we realize it takes longer (especially if they're pencilling AND inking)
-while a week or 2 delay is not the end of the world (it's worth that wait), the principle is that the artists s/b held to a deadline and meet it. If they don't, (especially to a ridiculous degree), it disrespects the loyal reader.

It's not a matter of the reader teaching these artists (or writers) a lesson by not buying the books. I lined up for Astro City 2 yrs later (where is that btw?)
and Ultimates.

The publishers and the editors need to get tougher with the "talent" and strategize how to meet deadlines, ie more issues in the can before solicitation, more preplanned fill in's that don't screw up continuity, and more follow up accountability on the artists. Joe Q's lateness on Daredevil-Father sets a horrible example. I'm sure he's working hard, but follow the above and don't commit, if you can't do it.

Editors realize the "talent' sells the books and they are "wimping out" on holding them accountable. THAT is what needs to change.

P.S. There have always been late issues, but with more sophisticated art and more popular, overcommited artists, it's worse than before.
I'd wait 3 years for a Neal Adams anything!

[tricksterpup]

After reading everyone's posts on the subject of late art, I would conclude the following:

-we all love more detailed artwork (Hitch, Finch, McNiven)
-we realize it takes longer (especially if they're pencilling AND inking)
-while a week or 2 delay is not the end of the world (it's worth that wait), the principle is that the artists s/b held to a deadline and meet it. If they don't, (especially to a ridiculous degree), it disrespects the loyal reader.

It's not a matter of the reader teaching these artists (or writers) a lesson by not buying the books. I lined up for Astro City 2 yrs later (where is that btw?)
and Ultimates.

The publishers and the editors need to get tougher with the "talent" and strategize how to meet deadlines, ie more issues in the can before solicitation, more preplanned fill in's that don't screw up continuity, and more follow up accountability on the artists. Joe Q's lateness on Daredevil-Father sets a horrible example. I'm sure he's working hard, but follow the above and don't commit, if you can't do it.

Editors realize the "talent' sells the books and they are "wimping out" on holding them accountable. THAT is what needs to change.

P.S. There have always been late issues, but with more sophisticated art and more popular, overcommited artists, it's worse than before.
I'd wait 3 years for a Neal Adams anything!

I agree with, they do need to be a little stronger with the artists but sometimes it does happen, an great artist becomes known as being late and later on finds it harder to find work.

One way of fixing this problem and getting the great art we love is yes, getting more books in the can before solictation. Also they can bring back the Bi-monthly book. Gosh, I remember when Daredevil and Doc Strange were both Bi-monthlies. It was nice as a kid, it helped out our pocketbooks.
When doing a mini series, do it as Bi Monthly, do not tote it as a Monthly and them miss every dead line and have the book come out sporatically.
But a week or two late for a book, its by far no means to be upset. Now if a book is a month to 2 months late then that is a different story.. hell, I am still waiting for the HB ed of American Flagg to come out. And sad part this is a reprint book.

[mastaflan]

Soo... you're advocating slave labor-errrr "taking advangage of third world artists" to save comics? Ummmm... well, that's one way of looking at things.

I can't put into words how proud I am that the US goverment supplies you with automatic weapons. It truly brings a tear to my eye.


I'm not aadvocating slave labor but I tell you that these guys are good and that they are hungry and deserve a crack if the people here can't cut it. I expect Marvel to have grown up since the 70's and can hook these guys up with better pay than they did the last guys. I mentioned them cuzz they were unsung heroes of the industry and they were taken advantage of aside from being unsung.

And I don't know what you mean by that Automatic weapons joke but I tell you this. Killing is no joking matter and I advise you to watch what you say about me as a soldier. Unless you have walked the path do not go there with me.

[Jake V]

I'm not aadvocating slave labor but I tell you that these guys are good and that they are hungry and deserve a crack if the people here can't cut it. I expect Marvel to have grown up since the 70's and can hook these guys up with better pay than they did the last guys. I mentioned them cuzz they were unsung heroes of the industry and they were taken advantage of aside from being unsung.
You shoulda said that instead of...

Marvel and the DC can also look for talent overseas like they did in 70's when they hired and took advantage of a bunch of third world artists who were way better and way cheaper than the artist in America at the time.
See the difference?

And my joke wasn't about killing people. It was about giving killing machines to people who are indifferent to taking advantage of people in the third world. Because you clarified your position on the matter, the joke no longer applies to you. :)

[mastaflan]

You shoulda said that instead of...


See the difference?

And my joke wasn't about killing people. It was about giving killing machines to people who are indifferent to taking advantage of people in the third world. Because you clarified your position on the matter, the joke no longer applies to you. :)


I spent my first 6 years in the in the Philipines and believe when I say that I sympathize with those guys. They do great work to save the industry and help themselves. They were prompt and professional and good but of course because comics for all intents and purpose is still a business and people wanna make more money so thats what they did. I guess what I'm also trying to say is that even under crappier living conditions they are able to get things done without compromising quality. I'm thinking maybe Finch and these young guns can take a lesson from some of these guys. But then again Im assuming that The young guns living condidtions are above substandard (I could be wrong).

[FatherShark]

I stick by Lazy (or at best Careless) have your read his response to the Jigsaw mistake or the NEW Avengers Directors Cut regarding all the mistakes he made there?

I haven't read this, but I would absolutely like the link to do so..........

[ChoasMAC]

After reading everyone's posts on the subject of late art, I would conclude the following:

-we all love more detailed artwork (Hitch, Finch, McNiven)
-we realize it takes longer (especially if they're pencilling AND inking)
-while a week or 2 delay is not the end of the world (it's worth that wait), the principle is that the artists s/b held to a deadline and meet it. If they don't, (especially to a ridiculous degree), it disrespects the loyal reader.


I agree with you completly, EXCEPT for the Finch part. No offense guys, but with all this time he has now, I still don't like him. He is a little better on NA than on Dissassembled but his people still seem like they are squinting all the time. Like they are thinking really hard and it hurts. :rolleyes:

The publishers and the editors need to get tougher with the "talent" and strategize how to meet deadlines, ie more issues in the can before solicitation, more preplanned fill in's that don't screw up continuity, and more follow up accountability on the artists. Joe Q's lateness on Daredevil-Father sets a horrible example. I'm sure he's working hard, but follow the above and don't commit, if you can't do it.

Editors realize the "talent' sells the books and they are "wimping out" on holding them accountable. THAT is what needs to change.

This is really bugging me about comics today. I'm sseriously thinking of just switching to trades. I've had to cut my monthly comic expenses in half, and with all these late books I feel lost when they do show up. This is a contributing factor in my apathy on comics today. Maybe I'm growing up or maybe I'm fed up... I don't know anymore!! :confused:

[thik_3rd]

Guys i just got the news




The Avengers is pregnant
best post in this thread.

[jade_nova]

I think it is late so Bendis can add extra dialogue to the story.

[Kirk G]

I guess what I'm also trying to say is that even under crappier living conditions they are able to get things done without compromising quality. I'm thinking maybe Finch and these young guns can take a lesson from some of these guys. But then again Im assuming that The young guns living condidtions are above substandard (I could be wrong).


Paging Mr. Don Simpson of Megaton Man...Don Simpson to the thread, please! :eek: (Check out his blog and ask how he made ends meet while attending art school and living in Detroit suburbs in the boom years of 1980s!)

[thik_3rd]

haha. 1 more week.

[Nightcrawler]

My initial reaction upon hearing that NA #4 has been puched back to the 23rd wasn't fit to post on this board. After taking a cold shower (and a couple gallons of ketamine) I am ready to act reasonable.

[tricksterpup]

Paging Mr. Don Simpson of Megaton Man...Don Simpson to the thread, please! :eek: (Check out his blog and ask how he made ends meet while attending art school and living in Detroit suburbs in the boom years of 1980s!)
Ah Kirk, now that was a flashback.. I miss Megaton Man.. Lets pretend and imagine him in the New Avenges.. Heck lets imagine Don Simpson doing the New Avengers. Wow.. that would be a hoot.

[pureclint]

I haven't read this, but I would absolutely like the link to do so..........


Here you go we talked about it in a 50 page thread regarding NA #2...

Originally Posted by david finch
3- Big panel. Barbadus holds Spidey firm but lets a wild eyed Piledriver break Spidey's arm in a moment of shocking brutality.
Peter's eyes wide in shock. This is as bad a place as he has ever been in.

piledriver
Always with the funny!
Spx: crack
SPIDER-MAN
Aarrrgghh!!


there you go. it's the panel description that I got for the spidey arm thing only slightly redacted. I put the wrong guy in there by mistake. It's enough to make you want to throw your arms in the air and go do something else for a living the way that people fixate on this stuff. I just can't keep up with it sometimes, what with a million characters that I've never heard of. I'm sure that some people will say that I have no business being on the book then, and who knows, maybe that's true. The fact is though, that this is a monthly book, and **** happens. All the time!

[Keith_Martineau]

Marvel could easily avoid this if they ran the first 6 issues of ANY new book on a monthly schedule. IE, no freaking bi-weekly or every 3rd week nonsense with the first 6 issues.
We got the first 3 issues over the course of 2 months, and then #4 gets delayed 3 weeks, and it feels way long, whereas if they'd just gone straight monthly, then we might only feel like it's a week behind.

Same thing with Astonishing. They went bi-weekly with those first few issues, and then when things started getting late with 8, we really felt it.

Marvel figured out that it's a good idea to get issues in the can before releasing the first issue. Now they just need to figure out that releasing on a biweekly nullifies the lead time having those issues finished creates.

[BlackKnight]

Marvel could easily avoid this if they ran the first 6 issues of ANY new book on a monthly schedule. IE, no freaking bi-weekly or every 3rd week nonsense with the first 6 issues.
We got the first 3 issues over the course of 2 months, and then #4 gets delayed 3 weeks, and it feels way long, whereas if they'd just gone straight monthly, then we might only feel like it's a week behind.

Same thing with Astonishing. They went bi-weekly with those first few issues, and then when things started getting late with 8, we really felt it.

Marvel figured out that it's a good idea to get issues in the can before releasing the first issue. Now they just need to figure out that releasing on a biweekly nullifies the lead time having those issues finished creates.

Keith,
Niether Astonishing nor New Avengers where bi-weekly, they were both monthly, or I guess in NA's case now you could say bi-monthly.

[Keith_Martineau]

Huh, guess yer right.

Wow, funny how releasing on an even and steady schedule makes it feel fast.
:evilangry

[BlackKnight]

Huh, guess yer right.

Wow, funny how releasing on an even and steady schedule makes it feel fast.
:evilangry

Funny how that works, isn't it. Of course Issue 1 was I think a week or two late, then issue 4 is a month late now, and they pushed issue 5 back a week. Sad

[Kirk G]

Funny how that works, isn't it. Of course Issue 1 was I think a week or two late, then issue 4 is a month late now, and they pushed issue 5 back a week. Sad

Does this mean that each of those issues is now returnable, because it wasn't pressent when solicited? I thought Marvel lost a suit that said it was their fault and they had to eat it if the books weren't AS solicited When solicited.

True or false?
Comments anyone?

[BlackKnight]

Kirk,
If it that is true, they keep changing the solicited date. So that would nullify that type of suit.

[Buzz1976]

Not meaning to change the subject... but I read here a few times that Finch made a few mistakes (or lots of them) in his Avengers work. Anyone have any examples?? I am curious.

Buzz :p

[Kirk G]

Ah Kirk, now that was a flashback.. I miss Megaton Man.. Lets pretend and imagine him in the New Avenges.. Heck lets imagine Don Simpson doing the New Avengers. Wow.. that would be a hoot.

For those of you who may not have known Megaton man, it was a superhero parody book, with a grossly muscular leading man drawn in a style that would be best described as fitting the book "Not Brand Echh" or "Splat" or"Plop" or whatever Marvel humor book was parody-ing their own work at the time.

Forbush Man comes to mind... was that by Kirby, or Romita and inked by who, Sinnott? Anyway, that was the style....heavy Chic Stone inking, etc.

[Kirk G]

Not meaning to change the subject... but I read here a few times that Finch made a few mistakes (or lots of them) in his Avengers work. Anyone have any examples?? I am curious.

Buzz :p
Let's see. where do we start... so many choices, so little time....
("How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.....")

[tricksterpup]

For those of you who may not have known Megaton man, it was a superhero parody book, with a grossly muscular leading man drawn in a style that would be best described as fitting the book "Not Brand Echh" or "Splat" or"Plop" or whatever Marvel humor book was parody-ing their own work at the time.

Forbush Man comes to mind... was that by Kirby, or Romita and inked by who, Sinnott? Anyway, that was the style....heavy Chic Stone inking, etc.

http://www.deniskitchen.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/BP_125.B.gif

http://www.remoteinduction.co.uk/comicon/megatonman.jpg

[Brian Cronin]

The book WILL be returnable.

-Brian

[Buzz1976]

Let's see. where do we start... so many choices, so little time....
("How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.....")


so.... is that a no?

[Phoney Bone]

And I seem to recall a pair of Don Heck stories appearing out of nowhere in the middle of a George Perez run in Avengers, a two-parter that had NOTHING to do with the ongoing story.

None of the ongoing stories Perez drew were interupted. He never did more than a two-parter, except for the JLA/JSA team-up against the Secret Society of Super-Villians.

[BlackKnight]

http://www.deniskitchen.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/BP_125.B.gif

http://www.remoteinduction.co.uk/comicon/megatonman.jpg


I miss Megaton Man, that was a great book..

[The Crime Dentist]

Meh. There was an issue out in December, there was an issue out in January, there was an issue out in February and there'll be an issue out in March. Spend the extra time reading JSA instead. It's alot better (and with monthly detailed art, no less).

[tricksterpup]

Meh. There was an issue out in December, there was an issue out in January, there was an issue out in February and there'll be an issue out in March. Spend the extra time reading JSA instead. It's alot better (and with monthly detailed art, no less).
And its a better book.. :)


But again, There is no complaint that this book being a few weeks late. I miss the Bi-montly books. I would love to see them return.

[Nick MB]

It looks like New Avengers #4 is on the relevant retailer invoices and will ship next week... :)

[Will.S]

It looks like New Avengers #4 is on the relevant retailer invoices and will ship next week... :)
I won't believe it till I see it!

[Brian R]

We arent talking drastic delays here, I dont see what all the fuss is about. If NA wanders into Secret War territory... then we'll talk.

[Melissa]

Personally, I'd be (and am) willing to wait for the books with truly amazing art. "Astonishing X-Men" and "Ultimates" are both worth the wait.

Drawing comics is HARD. Guys like Jim Lee work amazing hours. Why do you think MacFarlane was so happy to put down his pencil and just count his cash and write? No fault to him. Remember Joe Madeurea? I beleive he found more money for less work doing art for video games, and the comics world has been poorer for it.

Let's play the truth card- If Jack Kirby was drawing today, whipping out books at the speed he used too, most people here would say he's spread too thin and his art isn't good enough. Let's appreciate what great artists we get to enjoy. I wish books would ship on time too, but why be a jerk and call somebody lazy?

No way man. He draws ONE BOOK. ONE BOOK and he can't get it in on time.

This guy should do bi-monthlies or minis or one-shots. Sticking him on a monthly is plain stupid. How long did the book take to slip its schedule? This is issue 4 for cryin' out loud.

[Jake V]

He's never had problems doing a monthy before. Ultimate X-Men always shipped on time, sometimes twice a month.

Putting the blame squarely on Finch isn't exactly fair, when you've got a lot more people working on the book than him. I recall inker Danny Miki losing some of the art a few weeks ago, so that surely could be part of it.

[BlackKnight]

You are right, it is Bendis... and I think it works... now, it would be possible to 'change the angle' of the shot to gradually rotate the "camera" around so we can see shots of the team looking at the monitor (even though the S.H.I.E.L.D. agent's facial expression doesn't change), but I think the art supports the storytelling just fine; and even the same shot with zoom-ins have a dramatic effect...just like a zoom on a video camera can. I don''t think you are can read minds, so to say that their purpose is "to save time" is a pretty significant extrapolation. Write your own comic and see how we interpret it... you might be surprised... ;)

Wow, you like the exact same panel over and over, I guess different strokes for differnet fokes, as for your comparsion to zoom-ins on vidio cameras, well if you notice real people expression changes from second to second. Many of finch's panels don't change at all because they are the same panel just reprinted.

I liked issue 4 but the fact that the issue had repeated panels and art gaffs and was still a month late, yet people just wave it off boggles my mind, still like the comic but don't say that it is not important, if you did something similar at your job do you think the customers would say oh its not important that you got my personal data wrong, I just won't get my check, no they would be angry, this is the only job that I have seen that people get rain checks for screwing up.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

I liked issue 4 but the fact that the issue had repeated panels and art gaffs and was still a month late, yet people just wave it off boggles my mind, still like the comic but don't say that it is not important, if you did something similar at your job do you think the customers would say oh its not important that you got my personal data wrong, I just won't get my check, no they would be angry, this is the only job that I have seen that people get rain checks for screwing up.

Well, you are giving it a rain-check too, aren't you?
I mean, after all the complaints over the first three issues, you still bought # 4.
If the fans who hate the book give it chance after chance, why can't the fans who love the book also do the same.
Plus ,in our cases, it actually makes sense.