Naruto Manga/Anime Discussion Fun Thread!

[Sheldon]

Yep. I just hope Shika gets some cool moments.

[Taltos]

Considering how much the current filler arcs suck, I'm not so sure about that.

they are honestly, unreasonably bad. i understand the need for the fillers, but why go this way? Instead of deviating from the plot and making up all these ridiculous missions, why not just show team 7 grow under the tutilage of the legendary three?

Anyway, aside from Asuma and Shikamaru, the only named guys we've seen on this group are Izumo and Kotetsu (the two guys who were testing the Chunin Exam takers with that genjutsu to cover up which floor it was).

Methinks Hidan and Kakuzu are going to own them something fierce, with Shikamaru barely getting away to deliver the news to Tsunade as well as pass along knowledge of their abilities to the others.

I doubt this for two reasons. One we just saw these guys dominate for two fights in a row. We know theyre strong, why do we need to see them win again? Two, we have just learned more about asuma then we have ever known before, and this new found knowledge points to him being a very badmutha***kah.

[Taltos]

the current storyline leaves me to feel... rushed. did all his training these last few chapters take place in half a day? really now? ok.

i'm more fascinated by shikamaru than naruto.
yea was anyone else completely dissapointed with naruto's growth over the last three years? Compared to sakura and sauske he hasnt changed at all.

And now hes going to show more growth in a couple weeks training under kakashi, then he did in three years being the apprentice of jiraiya. Given jiraiyas credentials as a ninja and a teacher i expected Naruto to come back stronger than kakashi.

wat a complete waste of a time jump.

[XPac]

they are honestly, unreasonably bad. i understand the need for the fillers, but why go this way? Instead of deviating from the plot and making up all these ridiculous missions, why not just show team 7 grow under the tutilage of the legendary three?



I think the problem with showing them grow is that it potentially creates conflict with whatever direction the manga will take the characters.

The idea of the fillers I think is to keep things status quo, with the growth and change of the characters being the big pay off for Naruto 2.

I don't think they could do a show with Sasuke and Orchimaru since I think they want a bit of mystery around him, but I do think a show about Naruto and Jiraiya could work. They did have several story arcs together between the main anime and the filler afterall. But I can also see the upside of showing interaction with the other Teams rather than it just being about Naruto and Jiraiya. We've seen entire story arcs with Naruto interacting with those two... but him intereacting with the others on missions is pretty rare, except for the Sasuke Retrival arc. So I actually thought that was kind of fun.

[NeoSapien]

I doubt this for two reasons. One we just saw these guys dominate for two fights in a row. We know theyre strong, why do we need to see them win again? Two, we have just learned more about asuma then we have ever known before, and this new found knowledge points to him being a very badmutha***kah.
We have only seen bits and pieces of Hidan and Kakuzu's fights. Most importantly, we have only seen the end of Hidan's post-battle ritual. I assume that we will be shown the whole thing sometime in the future, and obviously he can't perform the ritual if he is defeated. Plus, the villains of the arc won't be losing to secondary (Shikamaru), tertiary (Asuma) and quarternary (Izumo and Kotetsu) characters.

Also, we may have learned that Asuma is a badass, but he also now has "I am more dead than disco" stamped on his forehead. When a tertiary character suddenly gets a lot of development and talks about himself as a sacrificial piece in a chess-type game, he is toast.

[Hiromi]

I'm going out on a limb and predicting Asuma'll sacrifice himself in order to allow Shikamaru and the others to rescue Nii Yugito. In addition to allowing for more character developement for her in the future(I simply cannot imagine that Kishimoto would introduce a character and give her a grand total of one chapter exposition), and giving Asuma a heroic death, it'll give a reason for the Akatsuki members to remain in the country without having to devote an entire arc to another pursuit story.

[XPac]

yea was anyone else completely dissapointed with naruto's growth over the last three years? Compared to sakura and sauske he hasnt changed at all.

And now hes going to show more growth in a couple weeks training under kakashi, then he did in three years being the apprentice of jiraiya. Given jiraiyas credentials as a ninja and a teacher i expected Naruto to come back stronger than kakashi.

wat a complete waste of a time jump.

The thing about Naruto though is that he's only a good ninja when he's in the proverbial "red zone." Under the right circumstances he probably CAN be more powerful than Katashi.

Naruto is one of those plot device characters... he won't get stronger by training, he'll get stronger when NEEDS to be stronger.

I do think he's grown in that he's no longer quite as noticibly inferrior a lot of the time as far as basic skills. But being the underdog is too big a factor in his character for him.

Plus, it kind of looks like Jiraiya taught him almost all his best moves already prior to their training journey.

[G_Man]

For what it's worth, I found it fun just seeing some of the characters interact more even if the stories themselve were so-so. So to me, that made them worth watching (I've been marathoning them all on YouTube the past couple days... so far they're pretty much all on there).

That's been the sole redeeming quality of these fillers. We get all these amusing character moments that they just don't put in the manga cuz' it would interrupt the flow of the overall plot.

The recent episode is a great example. Neji used to be this epic ass, and in most of the filler arcs it's shown as him being stoic to the point of blandness with little sign of the character development he'd shown during the Rescue Sasuke arc.

But this latest episode shows him and Tenten chilling wiith Naruto in the ramen stand and saying that they owe Lee alot. Not because he taught them some important moral lesson, but because he was always so enthusiatic about Gai's training that he took Gai's attention away from them so they didn't have to do the same crazy crap. Cue a scene of Tenten and Neji imagining themselves dressed in Gai's spandex and spouting off about 'youth' and 'guts'. Then the two of them shiver. That made the whole damn episode for me!

He not only reassures Tenten that Lee is fine despite a bad medical checkup from Tsunade, because "Lee is stronger than that", showing great faith in the teammate he used to put down so much, but he and tenten even make a joke about why lee is so important to them. That was some nice character development. Something that previously only Hinata had been getting in the filler arcs.

Plus, the scens with Lee not letting the fake Yagura's taunts shake his faith in Gai were prime Lee moments of awesomeness.

[G_Man]

The thing about Naruto though is that he's only a good ninja when he's in the proverbial "red zone." Under the right circumstances he probably CAN be more powerful than Katashi.

Naruto is one of those plot device characters... he won't get stronger by training, he'll get stronger when NEEDS to be stronger.

I do think he's grown in that he's no longer quite as noticibly inferrior a lot of the time as far as basic skills. But being the underdog is too big a factor in his character for him.

Plus, it kind of looks like Jiraiya taught him almost all his best moves already prior to their training journey.

Cosidering all the crap Jiraiya knows, I kinda doubt it. He taught him Summoning and Rasengan, each technique taking about a month. In two and a half years, Naruto should have been an ass kicker even without Kyuubi's chakra. He shows some real promise at first during the Rescue Gaara arc. All these little scens that imply he's become badass.

- Knowing that Sakkura knows about the demon fox even though she hasn't treated him any differently, and even mentioning it to her without fear of her opinion. This shows greater perception on his part as well as him getting over any lingering fears of his friends rejecting him because of the fox demon within him.

- Easily fending off Chiyo when she attacked Kakashi with intent to kill. Considering how skilled Chiyo shows herself to be later, dodging all of Sasori's needles while using chakra strings to help Sakura dodge them as well, for him to fend her off using just a single shadow clone while she was attacking to kill implied that he'd improved on his crappy taijutsu, one of his original weak points.

- Before going on the mission Jiraiya warns him not to use "that jutsu", implying that he's got some uber-secret attack that is a double-edged sword.

- Fighting the Itachi clone he demonstrates greater ease in drawing out and controlling Kyuubi's chakra in the no tails form, and shows a powered up version of the Rasengan.

- When confronting Deidara, he shows he can use one more tail as the final big deal, along with the implication that he could use more than that. This turns out to be the only thing that gets played out later on.

All of the above points except for the last one are completely ignored. Instead, during the second attempt at recovering Sasuke, he turns into an emo when thinking of Sasuke and ends up acting like a freaking idiot more and more as if all the signs he showed of greater intelligence during the Gaara arc were retconned or something.

Basically, Kishimoto kept dropping all these little hints that he'd improved dramatically, and during the last arc they all get thrown out the window, making Sakura job horribly as well in the process (she went from standing a chance, with help, against an Akatsuki member who was fighting seriously to getting knocked out by having Kabuto knocked bum first into her head), and he basically tells us that Naruto's improvement has been worth nothing, and now using the Kyuubi's chakra is a handicap instead of a trump card, and somehow this training from Kakashi, a guy who previously taught him jack all, is going to do what two and a half years of training with the guuy who taught the 4th Hokage couldn't?

It's a little hard not to be annoyed with Kishimoto right now, even ignoring the ultimate anti-climax ending of the last arc and the giant-sized plot holes that he left. Seriously, some of the crappier fillers had better endings with less plot holes than the last arc.

[XPac]

That's been the sole redeeming quality of these fillers. We get all these amusing character moments that they just don't put in the manga cuz' it would interrupt the flow of the overall plot.

The recent episode is a great example. Neji used to be this epic ass, and in most of the filler arcs it's shown as him being stoic to the point of blandness with little sign of the character development he'd shown during the Rescue Sasuke arc.

But this latest episode shows him and Tenten chilling wiith Naruto in the ramen stand and saying that they owe Lee alot. Not because he taught them some important moral lesson, but because he was always so enthusiatic about Gai's training that he took Gai's attention away from them so they didn't have to do the same crazy crap. Cue a scene of Tenten and Neji imagining themselves dressed in Gai's spandex and spouting off about 'youth' and 'guts'. Then the two of them shiver. That made the whole damn episode for me!

He not only reassures Tenten that Lee is fine despite a bad medical checkup from Tsunade, because "Lee is stronger than that", showing great faith in the teammate he used to put down so much, but he and tenten even make a joke about why lee is so important to them. That was some nice character development. Something that previously only Hinata had been getting in the filler arcs.

Plus, the scens with Lee not letting the fake Yagura's taunts shake his faith in Gai were prime Lee moments of awesomeness.


Yeah... Team Gai really has a lot of fun potential, and it definately showed in the fillers (though the Gaara story arc in Naruto 2 showed some of that as well, like when Lee asked Neji to climb on his back after seeing Gai carry Kakashi and seeing it as training). If there was ever a Naruto spin off, I'd like it to center around Team Gai.

The fillers on the whole are lame, but they do sort of fill in certain gaps as far as character interaction goes. And even if you don't consider the Fillers as cannon, some of that character interaction still influences how you look at the characters in Naruto 2.

And there was some fun Naruto/Hinata moments too.When you're watching those fillers you just gotta climg to the GOOD and try to ignore the bad.

[Taltos]

I think the problem with showing them grow is that it potentially creates conflict with whatever direction the manga will take the characters.

The idea of the fillers I think is to keep things status quo, with the growth and change of the characters being the big pay off for Naruto 2.

I don't think they could do a show with Sasuke and Orchimaru since I think they want a bit of mystery around him, but I do think a show about Naruto and Jiraiya could work. They did have several story arcs together between the main anime and the filler afterall. But I can also see the upside of showing interaction with the other Teams rather than it just being about Naruto and Jiraiya. We've seen entire story arcs with Naruto interacting with those two... but him intereacting with the others on missions is pretty rare, except for the Sasuke Retrival arc. So I actually thought that was kind of fun.
yea i hear what youre saying and the episode with rock lee's dojo is actually one of my favorites.

But i still get tired of the fluff and repetition.

[Taltos]

I'm going out on a limb and predicting Asuma'll sacrifice himself in order to allow Shikamaru and the others to rescue Nii Yugito. In addition to allowing for more character developement for her in the future(I simply cannot imagine that Kishimoto would introduce a character and give her a grand total of one chapter exposition), and giving Asuma a heroic death, it'll give a reason for the Akatsuki members to remain in the country without having to devote an entire arc to another pursuit story.
but his father just died for the village, you think he'll go to? and then we'd have to deal with young konahamaru, who i assume is his son.

[zero913]

[QUOTE=XPac]Yeah... Team Gai really has a lot of fun potential, and it definately showed in the fillers (though the Gaara story arc in Naruto 2 showed some of that as well, like when Lee asked Neji to climb on his back after seeing Gai carry Kakashi and seeing it as training). If there was ever a Naruto spin off, I'd like it to center around Team Gai.
QUOTE]

yeah that would be cool ... but if there were to be a spinoff, what I'D really like to see is the olden days. so i wanna see kakashi when he's young and kickass, or stories and missions with the yondaime, even though we saw a glimpse of them in the manga (still would be badass to see it on tv), or even itachi when he was young with his prodigal progress as a child.

on a random note ... naruto should just have his kage bunshins each make a rasengan and attack ... chances of him missing should be somewhat slimmed ... i hope. also why didnt sasuke, at least before leaving to go to orochimaru, just go around the village and steal everyone's moves with his sharingan? that way he'd have a jumpstart in using a buttload of techniques ... if he isnt satisfied, then he can just go travel around some more and gain more through copying them.

[Hiromi]

but his father just died for the village, you think he'll go to? and then we'd have to deal with young konahamaru, who i assume is his son.

There's two hints that its what's coming, both Neosapien pointed out a couple posts ago. But then maybe I'll be pleasently surprised and Asuma will just kill both of them :)

[Enterprise E]

I've been reading about how much people hate that Naruto and Sakura jobbed to Sasuke (Jerk/Dickface), but there were circumstances that made it plausible that Sasuke would have the advantage at that time. Both Naruto and Sakura were far from being at full strength. Naruto was burned out from being in his Four-tailed state and Sakura had been poisoned by the Kyuubi chakra when Four-tailed Naruto cut her arm. That meant that Sai and Yamato, two people who may have been able to take Sasuke, either alone or together, had to protect Naruto and Sakura, intercepting attacks that they would have normally been able to dodge. I think that in the next fight between Jerkface and Naruto, things will go differently as in Sasuke needs to use his Cursed Seal in order to compete with Naruto, and Naruto wins by out-smarting him and having him waste chakra against Shadow Clones. I also hope that Naruto calls Dickface Itachi. You have to admit that Sasuke is becoming a bit like his older brother, using Naruto and Sakura as measuring sticks and so he can get the Mangekyo Sharingan. I'd love to see Jerkface's reaction to that. It could also be key in Naruto's win and in bringing Sasuke back to the light.

As for Asuma and the Ninja Shotai's fate, I don't know. Shikamaru is almost guaranteed to be a survivor. As for Asuma, it could go either way. He's implied to be pretty strong, but that talk about being a sacrificial pawn has me worried about his safety. I think that the others, however, are toast. I do think that if Asuma dies, he'll die either saving Shikamaru (and possibly Yugito if she is near when the two forces battle) and/or take one or both members of Akatsuki with him.

[XPac]

on a random note ... naruto should just have his kage bunshins each make a rasengan and attack ... chances of him missing should be somewhat slimmed ... i hope. also why didnt sasuke, at least before leaving to go to orochimaru, just go around the village and steal everyone's moves with his sharingan? that way he'd have a jumpstart in using a buttload of techniques ... if he isnt satisfied, then he can just go travel around some more and gain more through copying them.


That was the unfortunate thing about Sasuke... during the preliminaries he was injured so he couldn't see those fights (and couldn't use his sharigan anyways because of the seal), and he showed up late for the third round so he couldn't catch those either. He had plenty of opportunities to steal moves had Orochimaru not messed it up in different ways.

I suppose he should still be able to use the rasengan since he saw Naruto do that. That's probaby the move most worth stealing since it's arguably more powerful than the Chidori Kakashi taught him.

But it was Orochimaru who probably got a bit impatient. He wanted Sasuke NOW, gave the invitation, and he left. Had he hung around the villiage a bit longer and made a few more friends, he probably could have snagged a few moves. Given how much the teams were mixed up in the filler arcs, he probably would have stolen quite a bit in that period.

Since Kakashi himself is the copycat ninja, you'd think just watching him overtime you'd be able to pick up a whole bunch of new moves. I wonder if during his one on one training, he ever asked Kakashi to just show him a bunch of stuff to copy.

[Enterprise E]

I don't think that the Rasengan can be copied by a Sharingan since it doesn't use any hand seals. Still, Sasuke could have gone around and copied various other jutsu before going off with Orochimaru. Maybe he would have found something that could help him against Itachi. I still think that Sasuke's unnatural growth due to drug use and/or other experiments performed on him will hurt him and his fighting abilities in the long run in various ways.

[XPac]

I don't think that the Rasengan can be copied by a Sharingan since it doesn't use any hand seals. Still, Sasuke could have gone around and copied various other jutsu before going off with Orochimaru. Maybe he would have found something that could help him against Itachi. I still think that Sasuke's unnatural growth due to drug use and/or other experiments performed on him will hurt him and his fighting abilities in the long run in various ways.

I'm sure the drug thing will hurt him somehow. He's taking the quick easy route to power, and a universal law of literature in any universe will tell you that's not the way to go.

Sasuke does seem to start off ahead of Naruto in Naruto 2... but that's probably necessary. The whole idea for Naruto is to start off behind and catch up, then shove that fact in everyone else's face. Though I have no doubt Sasuke has gotten far more powerful than Naruto in the break, when all is said and done he'll probably come to the realiztion that Naruto was able to make equal gains without selling out. Though that can't happen yet... they have to build towards that.

[Enterprise E]

My guess is that if and when Naruto beats Sasuke, it will partially be Sasuke's fault for the loss. The best way for that to happen, in my opinion, would be for Sasuke to lose due to the fact that he used up all of his chakra killing Naruto's clones while in Cursed Seal mode while Naruto hid either among the clones or out of sight. Have Sasuke waste his energy and then strike when Sasuke is tired and his chakra is drained.

Another thing that I think is being foreshadowed is that Tobi, the newest member of Akatsuki, may be none other than the seemingly deceased Obito Uchiha. Think about it. His face is covered so we can't see his forehead protector, his mask has one eye hole for Tobi's right eye. Obito gave his left eye to Kakashi before he "died". Also, at the time, there were a couple members of Akatsuki that had the ability to revive people, Orochimaru being one of them. There is the seeming mechanization or armor bolted onto Tobi's right side that seem to correspond to the injuries he suffered before he died. Tobi has dark hair in a similar style to Obito's. Also consider the similarity between the names: Tobi, Obito; this seems to me to be more than just a coincidence. Also look at Tobi's personality. He acts goofy at times, a bit like Naruto. Guess who else was like Naruto before he "died". I wonder what will happen if Tobi does, in fact, turn out to be Obito. Will he have joined Akatsuki due to amnesia? Could it have been Orochimaru who petitioned for him to become a subordinate due to the Sharingan? Does he have the Mangekyo Sharingan? Will he have a showdown with Kakashi? Will Rin be revealed to be alive and make an appearance? Will Obito remember who he is during a fight with Kakashi? Does Itachi know that Tobi is Obito? If so, what does he think of him? If not, what will his reaction be to another surviving Uchiha? It would be very interesting if they made an arc about Tobi and gave us more background on him. Just so you know, even before we saw more of Tobi's personality, I believed him to be Obito Uchiha.

[XPac]

My guess is that if and when Naruto beats Sasuke, it will partially be Sasuke's fault for the loss. The best way for that to happen, in my opinion, would be for Sasuke to lose due to the fact that he used up all of his chakra killing Naruto's clones while in Cursed Seal mode while Naruto hid either among the clones or out of sight. Have Sasuke waste his energy and then strike when Sasuke is tired and his chakra is drained.

Another thing that I think is being foreshadowed is that Tobi, the newest member of Akatsuki, may be none other than the seemingly deceased Obito Uchiha. Think about it. His face is covered so we can't see his forehead protector, his mask has one eye hole for Tobi's right eye. Obito gave his left eye to Kakashi before he "died". Also, at the time, there were a couple members of Akatsuki that had the ability to revive people, Orochimaru being one of them. There is the seeming mechanization or armor bolted onto Tobi's right side that seem to correspond to the injuries he suffered before he died. Tobi has dark hair in a similar style to Obito's. Also consider the similarity between the names: Tobi, Obito; this seems to me to be more than just a coincidence. Also look at Tobi's personality. He acts goofy at times, a bit like Naruto. Guess who else was like Naruto before he "died". I wonder what will happen if Tobi does, in fact, turn out to be Obito. Will he have joined Akatsuki due to amnesia? Could it have been Orochimaru who petitioned for him to become a subordinate due to the Sharingan? Does he have the Mangekyo Sharingan? Will he have a showdown with Kakashi? Will Rin be revealed to be alive and make an appearance? Will Obito remember who he is during a fight with Kakashi? Does Itachi know that Tobi is Obito? If so, what does he think of him? If not, what will his reaction be to another surviving Uchiha? It would be very interesting if they made an arc about Tobi and gave us more background on him. Just so you know, even before we saw more of Tobi's personality, I believed him to be Obito Uchiha.


As far as Naruto defeating Sasuke... yes, having the opponent run out of chakra is certainly a reasonable finish. Though Naruto almost always has a disadvatage in terms of skill, his ace is the hole is always his chakra reserves. Even without dipping into the 9 tailed Fox's supply, he's usually going to outlast his opponent.

As far as Tobi... I thought the same thing. It's odd that they don't bother showing what villiage he's from. And I assume if they're going to go through all the trouble of hiding it the pay off should be that he's from the hidden leaf.

Hopefully that will be put to the test next time Kakashi and the Akatsuki members clash.

[Hiromi]

rumors of Tobi being Obito sprang up like wildfire in the Narutofan forums within like seconds of his introduction. Also the reviver is Zetsu, who hails from grass Country where Obito happened to die IIRC.

[XPac]

I've been reading about how much people hate that Naruto and Sakura jobbed to Sasuke (Jerk/Dickface), but there were circumstances that made it plausible that Sasuke would have the advantage at that time. Both Naruto and Sakura were far from being at full strength. Naruto was burned out from being in his Four-tailed state and Sakura had been poisoned by the Kyuubi chakra when Four-tailed Naruto cut her arm. That meant that Sai and Yamato, two people who may have been able to take Sasuke, either alone or together, had to protect Naruto and Sakura, intercepting attacks that they would have normally been able to dodge. I think that in the next fight between Jerkface and Naruto, things will go differently as in Sasuke needs to use his Cursed Seal in order to compete with Naruto, and Naruto wins by out-smarting him and having him waste chakra against Shadow Clones. I also hope that Naruto calls Dickface Itachi. You have to admit that Sasuke is becoming a bit like his older brother, using Naruto and Sakura as measuring sticks and so he can get the Mangekyo Sharingan. I'd love to see Jerkface's reaction to that. It could also be key in Naruto's win and in bringing Sasuke back to the light.



Rereading that fight, I gotta agree that there's not much you can really read into it. Like you said, Sakura and Naruto were not at 100%, and Yamato seemingly was holding back in hopes of Naruto and Sakura ending the confrontation without things getting to rough.

No one brought out the big guns.

A real fight, with a Naruto at 100% might end differently. Though the problem is Sasuke can still draw power from the cursed seals. Naruto doesn't seem willing to use the 9 tailed chakra anymore, and even if he did Sasuke seems capable of dispelling the 9 tails power. It's Naruto's ace in the hole, and may not be a factor anymore.

Perhaps thats why Kakashi's training willl prove more valuable. Jiraiya may have focused a lot of Naruto's training on controlling the power of the 9 tails. Kakashi is going in a different direction now that Naruto is trying to be less reliant on it.

[G_Man]

rumors of Tobi being Obito sprang up like wildfire in the Narutofan forums within like seconds of his introduction. Also the reviver is Zetsu, who hails from grass Country where Obito happened to die IIRC.

I did to huge posts on two seperate theories regarding Tobi on Narutofan.com Forums. I'm not at home right now (using a computer at work), but when I get back, I'll copy annd paste them here and see what you think.

One theory is regarding Tobi if he is not in fact Obito.

The other is a possible explanation if he is indeed Obito, as well as possible speculation as to his abilities.

Both theories are pretty good (even got some compliments from the other posters there), so I'd be interested in hearing what you guys think.

[G_Man]

Okay, here they are:

This first post is in response to a thread speculating on how Tobi's abilities after he seemingly defeated the Sanbi he and Deidara were fighting in the recent chapter:

The more I see of Tobi, the more I'm convinced that goofball act of his is just that, an act. When we first see him, he acts all polite and innocent to Zetsu, his direct superior, but then acts sarcastic and mocking with Deidara.

Next we see him, he's in Akatsuki (and Sasori's earlier comments imply that joining involves a very difficult test of sorts), and asks Deidara-'sempai' to back him up as he fights the Sanbi. Deidara mockingly tells him to handle it himself, and Tobi seemingly runs away screaming like a little girl, meanwhile, Deidara hits the thing in the face with a big explosion.

The next time we see him, he's standing on the belly of the Sanbi and is asking Deidara (note the sudden lack of a -sempai honorific, though that may have been just my translation) if he saw his "cool jutsu! It was a one-hit KO!" Deidara looks annoyed and tells Tobi to remember they both fought and Tobi had help from his bombs and that Deidara's art is what carried the battle.

This at the very least acknowledges that not only did Tobi fight, but he also landed the finishing blow! Deidara says he shouldn't get such a big head, and begins to rant, almost as if he's struggling to retain his composure (something we've never seen him do before, not even after losing an arm to Kakashi), and then Tobi casually throws his whole arguement in his face with a single, surprisingly witty reply, disguised as an innocent observation. Insert gag with Tobi being (allowing himself to be?) bombed.

Later on, we see them again, and Tobi, Mr. Run-Away-In-Fright-From-The-Big-Bad-Sanbi, is so relaxed he's actually sleeping on the damn thing even though it's merely unconcious. Either that, or he's intentionally ignoring Deidara's continued rant (and it's definitely a rant) about how Tobi "shouldn't be so cocky, cuz' the bijuu was weak"* by feigning sleep, eerily reminiscent of how Kakashi blows off Gai's bragging. Even more interesting. When Deidara notices Tobi's lack of reply, and how it looks like Tobi is staring at him, he begins to get a concerned expression on his face (insert yaoi fangirl fantasies here), almost as if he's worried that Tobi is getting irritated with him instead of the other way around.**

*Notice how Deidara now downplays Tobi's victory by saying the creature was 'weak' because it didn't know how to make full use of it's power like a jinchuuriki would (again contradicting himself because he had earlier described all the jinchuuriki he had seen as pathetic to Naruto), instead of saying he did all the work, like earlier. This implies that Tobi was the one who was actually the most effective against Sanbi, and Deidara knows that Tobi knows it so trying to BS/downplay Tobi that way wasn't going to cut it.

**I don't know why, but I've got this theory that every time we see Tobi from now on, he's going to be acting like a buffon with Deidara seemingly always losing his cool and trying to put Tobi down. Then, when it's finally time for him to strut his stuff, he's going to end up killing Deidara, finally having grown fed up with tolerating the mad bomber's attitude and playing the fool.

We're thinking he's Akatsuki's version of Naruto, without really thinking about possible implications of such. Notice how, just like Naruto, whenever he seemingly pulls off some powerful attack or strategy, he instantly has the person who witnessed it assuming he's a harmless idiot anyway with his behavior and words.

And it's interesting, all of Naruto's best feats have happened away from the eyes of the rest of the Rookie 9 (especially the ones who'd take such feats at face avlue and start asking the wrong questions), usually with only Sasuke being able to see the full extent of Naruto's strength (and then instantly trying to downplay Naruto's strength or he gets jealous). It's similar here. The only Akatsuki member who saw Tobi's "one-hit KO a bijuu no jutsu" was Dei and he's getting annoyed/jealous and instantly trying to downplay it instead of wondering what the hell it was or asking himself if the others knew about this. An interesting parallel.

I'm betting that it's not so much that he's a fool, but is badass when it's needed like Naruto, but more it's a case of him acting like a fool cuz' he doesn't want people to realize how badass he is ala Keshin and Vash the Stampede. Not cuz' he wants to avoid trouble like Kenshin or Vash, but cuz' he loves the expression of horror and confusion on his enemies' faces when 'the harmless fool/comic relief' suddenly blows them away.

I'm betting he's like the version of Naruto in those dark fanfics where he's really evil/malicious and only acts like an idiot so Leaf village will underestimate him until he can kill them all.

[G_Man]

Here's my second post on a possible theory for fans of the Obito = Tobi theory. It was done in response to the post below:

Tobi putting down a full blow bijuu in one attack, albeit an off screen attack, pretty much sealed the deal for me that he is Obito

The only way I see ANYONE defeating a Bijuu in one attack is if they can do what Sasuke did to the Kyuubi, and just use some strange Uchiha power to seal up it's power and KO it

As for how Rin died, I predict that she went out the same way that Chiyo did with a Tensei jutsu that required her life force, and she's actually the one responsible for Obito/Tobi's revived condition. Of course it wouldn't be the exact same as Chiyo's or even Orochimaru's, but a Tensei jutsu all the same.

G-Man - Eerily enough, that just might fufill the whole "kill your best friend" requirement for the Mangekyou. Even though he saw Kakashi as a friend at the end, the one he loved was Rin, and he never said anything, even in the end, because he knew she loved Kakashi. That at the very least shows how much he cared.

Imagine Rin goes back later and tries some untested Tensai jutsu. She succeeds in reviving him, but dies in the process and the ressurrection is incomplete with Obito only remembering fragments. He wakes up, and sees this beautiful girl lying over or near him dead, and though he doesn't remember her, he can't help but feel that she looks familiar.

He's overwhelmed with this sadness that he can't understand, possibly even blaming himself because she's dead and he's the only person nearby who could have done it. Suddenly, he feels this peculiar sensation in his damaged, remaining eye, but doesn't hink too much about it, not realizing the significance.

With his ressurrection flawed, he probably looks half-dead, almost like a monster, so it'd be easy to believe himself to be as such, and to convince himself that he must have been responsible for this poor girl's death. He wanders around Grass Country, disguising himself to fool others, and acting like a fool, not just becuase it's familiar, but because, like Naruto, he feels acting silly will help others be more at ease in his presence, especially since he can't show them the remains of his face.

Eventually, he stumbles upon Zetsu, who may have been drawn to him by his own cannabalistic instincts, sensing that he's a reanimated corpse of sorts. After meeting Zetsu, someone who "is a monster like me" Tobi, which he now calls himself as that's what little he recalls, pledges alleigiance, and follows Zetsu to Akatsuki. Zetsu having allowed Tobi to accompany him, and possibly even help tarin him a little, after seeing the strange doujutsu power that Tobi posseses.

Because his ressurection was flawed, his eye damaged, and he didn't really kill Rin directly, Tobi's doujutsu may be an incomplete or altered/mutated Mangekyou like Kakashi's. It may be so different from the normal Mangekyou that Itachi and the others don't even recognize it as Sharingan, especially since Tobi wears a mask, making it easier to hide his ruined eye.

It makes for a plausible Tobi=Obito theory, plus helps Tobi remain unique as his doujutsu is a Mangekyou that's so heavily altered that it's unrecognizable as the Mangekyou.

[Hiromi]

I'd say both theories are plausible. Also I'll NEVER feel comfortable referring to Deidara as a "he."

[XPac]

I'd say both theories are plausible. Also I'll NEVER feel comfortable referring to Deidara as a "he."

Yeah... that's the funny thing about japaneese manga. There's always that one guy that's so girly looking, you wonder why they didn't just make the guy a girl (as badly done english dubs tends to do anyways).

But I guess it's almost a pre-requisite now. YOu almost have to have the girly looking guy in there.

[Nick Soapdish]

Yeah... that's the funny thing about japaneese manga. There's always that one guy that's so girly looking, you wonder why they didn't just make the guy a girl (as badly done english dubs tends to do anyways).

But I guess it's almost a pre-requisite now. YOu almost have to have the girly looking guy in there.

And Haku, Orochimaru, Orochimaru-as-a-grass-nin, Yashamaru, Neji, Sasuke, or Itachi didn't fit the bill? ;)

Did I miss anyone?

[Hiromi]

To be fair the Grass nin Snake Face was impersonating may well have been female, who knows. And Snake Face hisself, Neji, Jerkface, etc, while all undeniably bishie, are clearly male as well. Haku and Deidara have been the only REALLY hard to pin down gender characters(and Kishimoto even managed to joke about it with Haku in story).

[Nick Soapdish]

They addressed Snake in the Grass as being male, but I don't know if it was the translators guessing or not.

And I thought Yashamaru was pretty tough except for the name. I agree that the others were just bishie guys.

[XPac]

They addressed Snake in the Grass as being male, but I don't know if it was the translators guessing or not.

And I thought Yashamaru was pretty tough except for the name. I agree that the others were just bishie guys.

It's weird that with all the Haku's and Deidrara's wandering around this world, Naratu was the one Sai assumed was penis-less. I guess Sai didn't get out much.

[G_Man]

To be fair the Grass nin Snake Face was impersonating may well have been female, who knows. And Snake Face hisself, Neji, Jerkface, etc, while all undeniably bishie, are clearly male as well. Haku and Deidara have been the only REALLY hard to pin down gender characters(and Kishimoto even managed to joke about it with Haku in story).

Also, it's worth noting that the body Orochimaru was in when he fought Sarutobi was female! :eek:

Sarutobi even refers to him as "young lady" when questioning Orochimaru's identity right before he explains his immortality jutsu.

[Hiromi]

I detest off weeks. That is all.

[XPac]

Also, it's worth noting that the body Orochimaru was in when he fought Sarutobi was female! :eek:

Sarutobi even refers to him as "young lady" when questioning Orochimaru's identity right before he explains his immortality jutsu.

So when he figured out Itachi was too tough for him, Orochimaru went and picked a fight with a little girl? Well, that's just sad.

Though I've actually always thought it was weird that Orochimaru felt he couldn't take Itachi.

Itachi seemed pretty convinced that if he and Kisame tried tackling Jiraiya to get Naruto, both of them would die. And it never really seemed like Orochimaru was anymore powerful than Jiraiya. To me that was always kinda weird.

[NeoSapien]

So when he figured out Itachi was too tough for him, Orochimaru went and picked a fight with a little girl? Well, that's just sad.

Though I've actually always thought it was weird that Orochimaru felt he couldn't take Itachi.

Itachi seemed pretty convinced that if he and Kisame tried tackling Jiraiya to get Naruto, both of them would die. And it never really seemed like Orochimaru was anymore powerful than Jiraiya. To me that was always kinda weird.
It's the biggest plot hole in Naruto.

Personally, I think that Itachi and Kisame being hesitant to confront Jiraiya was a plot device to keep them from attacking with full force and taking Naruto right then and there. Note that Itachi was weakened by wasting his power on Kakashi and Sasuke and that he and Kisame didn't seem very intimidated by Jiraiya when they actually met him or after they left. Also, it was recently reiterated by Sasuke that Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru, but when Kakashi suggested that Akatsuki hasn't gone after Naruto for two years because of Jiraiya, Chiyo dismissed it and brought up the more important reason of Akatsuki needing to make preparations for the bijuu extractions.

[XPac]

It's the biggest plot hole in Naruto.

Personally, I think that Itachi and Kisame being hesitant to confront Jiraiya was a plot device to keep them from attacking with full force and taking Naruto right then and there. Note that Itachi was weakened by wasting his power on Kakashi and Sasuke and that he and Kisame didn't seem very intimidated by Jiraiya when they actually met him or after they left. Also, it was recently reiterated by Sasuke that Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru, but when Kakashi suggested that Akatsuki hasn't gone after Naruto for two years because of Jiraiya, Chiyo dismissed it and brought up the more important reason of Akatsuki needing to make preparations for the bijuu extractions.

Yeah... it's an interesting question. Until now, I thought the biggest plot hole in Naruto was how Kakashi's dog achieved rank of a ninja. But this question is definately more interesting.

I guess to a DEGREE they justified their fear of facing Jiraiya since he did end that fight with one Toad stomach move. Or maybe we just haven't seen that much of Jiraya as far as showing what he's really capable of if he's ever pushed to that point, as compared to Orochimaru, I don't know. But it still seems as though they had a respectable aversion to fighting him.

I don't know the exact words in the manga, but I believe in the anime Itachi outright said best case scenario was he'd die by killing both of them if they tried something. That's something since it was 2 on 1.

On a side note, it did seem as though Kakashi was more intimidated at the thought of fighting Orochimaru than Itachi. Or at least that's the vibe I got out of it.

[apple pro]

Itachi is stronger otherwise Orochimaru would have just taken him instead of attacking the leaf Hokage right? I could be wrong those chapters are oooold (to me).

The biggest plot hole (among many) is easy: Who the hell raised Sasuke and Naruto? Sasuke's entire family was murdered and nobody took him in even though he was born with a deadly weapon (Sharingan)? Naruto has a goddamn 9 tails fox demon in him and nobody watched him? Both of them could have been kidnapped and used. Sasuke's eyes could have been ripped out and recycled (like somebody elses we know), and Naruto could have been used as like an atomic bomb — taking him to a village you are at war with and releasing the 9 tails from his body for instance.

More gaping holes than Paris... I mean Swiss cheese.

[Hiromi]

Presumably they have an orphanage in some part of the village, Naruto we know was living by himself, but for the most part I figure Kishimoto doesn't tell anything about their home lives because its unimportant.

[apple pro]

oh yeah, unimportant. so your entire clan is murdered and you have a incredible bloodline gift... hey let's stick him in an orphangage! no wonder he's psycho.

naruto — let's stick the 9 tails in him and have the entire village hate him! wheeee!!

the more I think about it, the more I wonder why both of them are not completely evil. i think the lack of fleshing out the characters is a mistake by Kishimoto, that's why some people like me see holes in the characterization. i don't see why the trifecta would have much feelings for each other, maybe a little but not to the extent we see.

[XPac]

oh yeah, unimportant. so your entire clan is murdered and you have a incredible bloodline gift... hey let's stick him in an orphangage! no wonder he's psycho.

naruto — let's stick the 9 tails in him and have the entire village hate him! wheeee!!

the more I think about it, the more I wonder why both of them are not completely evil. i think the lack of fleshing out the characters is a mistake by Kishimoto, that's why some people like me see holes in the characterization. i don't see why the trifecta would have much feelings for each other, maybe a little but not to the extent we see.

I wouldn't exactly say it was a lack of fleshing out the characters... I think the fact that they had sad lonely childhoods was a very intentional decision on the writers part. That's how they're able to give Naruto and Sasuke (and Gaara) that particular connection.

In Naruto's case, it obviously wasn't suppossed to be that way. The Fourth wanted Naruto to be respected for what he was... but obviously it didn't turn out that way.

I do think that given such a messed up childhood, you're right in saying that they could have turned out evil. Given how Sasuke is acting now and how Gaara acted until just recently, obviously the writer had the same idea. The fact that Naruto turned out the way he did I guess just shows up the greatness he suppossedly had since day one.

[XPac]

Itachi is stronger otherwise Orochimaru would have just taken him instead of attacking the leaf Hokage right? I could be wrong those chapters are oooold (to me).



Yeah. Orochimaru made it pretty darn clear that he can't take Itachi. Sasuke beleives that as well.

It's just odd that Jiraiya seemingly doesn't have that same problem. Maybe we're suppossed to assume Jiraiya is more powerful than Orochimaru. He didn't seem that way when they fought, but they were both handicapped to varying degrees so that fight probably can only tell us so much.

[Enterprise E]

Another thing is that Orochimaru might not be powerful enough to take over Itachi, but may be strong enough to match, or kill him if he got lucky, but Itachi could do the same if he got lucky. Orochimaru strikes me as the guy who won't fight someone if there's a 50-50 chance or better that he might die or come out of the battle seriously injured. He may try to use Sasuke to get to Itachi as well. Why would he give Sasuke drugs and such to make him stronger, faster, if he was going to take over Sasuke's body and risk suffering damage from those drugs in the long run. And it's highly probable that Sasuke will suffer problems from those drugs. You just know that such an unnatural growth will have some heavy consequences, consequences that Orochimaru would not like to face for three years. He could have simply lied to Sasuke in order to have Jerkface be willing to give up his body so he could kill Itachi. It would not be out of character for him, and it would explain why Akatsuki hasn't gone after him despite the fact that a valuable ring was taken from them when he defected, and why Itachi and Kisame were not eager to take Jiraiya. Jiraiya may be stronger than Orochimaru, but not so much stronger than him that two members of Akatsuki thought that the best case scenerio was MAD when they had the advantage 2 to 1 in numbers.

[XPac]

Another thing is that Orochimaru might not be powerful enough to take over Itachi, but may be strong enough to match, or kill him if he got lucky, but Itachi could do the same if he got lucky. Orochimaru strikes me as the guy who won't fight someone if there's a 50-50 chance or better that he might die or come out of the battle seriously injured. He may try to use Sasuke to get to Itachi as well. Why would he give Sasuke drugs and such to make him stronger, faster, if he was going to take over Sasuke's body and risk suffering damage from those drugs in the long run. And it's highly probable that Sasuke will suffer problems from those drugs. You just know that such an unnatural growth will have some heavy consequences, consequences that Orochimaru would not like to face for three years. He could have simply lied to Sasuke in order to have Jerkface be willing to give up his body so he could kill Itachi. It would not be out of character for him, and it would explain why Akatsuki hasn't gone after him despite the fact that a valuable ring was taken from them when he defected, and why Itachi and Kisame were not eager to take Jiraiya. Jiraiya may be stronger than Orochimaru, but not so much stronger than him that two members of Akatsuki thought that the best case scenerio was MAD when they had the advantage 2 to 1 in numbers.


Well, that is a common trait among villians. Like Naraku from Inu Yasha for example.

Though Orochimaru was willing to get his hands dirty battling it out with the Third and with the 4 tailed Naruto. He could have died in either of those fights. But I suppose that could be explained as a miscalculation on his part.

As far as Sasuke though... I'm not sure Orochimaru would have to lie to him about anything. As long as Itachi dies, I doubt he cares what Orocuimaru does to him.

[sehthan]

I doubt Itachi is actually "stronger" than Orochimaru, it's just that he has a one-hit move Oro has no defense against, and Oro seems to have psyched himself out about it. And Itachi didn't want to fight Jiraiya because he knows Jiraya's reputation and isn't sure he could take him in a straight fight. We know Itachi's good, but he basically has one really big gun, and without that there's no indication that he's as powerful as some of the other top-levers in the series.

If you keep in mind that some of what the characters say about each other is subjective opinion, there's no contradiction.

[XPac]

I doubt Itachi is actually "stronger" than Orochimaru, it's just that he has a one-hit move Oro has no defense against, and Oro seems to have psyched himself out about it. And Itachi didn't want to fight Jiraiya because he knows Jiraya's reputation and isn't sure he could take him in a straight fight. We know Itachi's good, but he basically has one really big gun, and without that there's no indication that he's as powerful as some of the other top-levers in the series.

If you keep in mind that some of what the characters say about each other is subjective opinion, there's no contradiction.

Hmmm... now that you think about it, Itachi does sort of come off as a one trich poney. Don't get me wrong, he's GOOD... but from what we've seen the only trich he's got that would put him ahead of Orochimaru would be the Mangekyou Sharingan. He did have that trick that resulted in that black fire though... that seemed pretty uber. I assume they're saving that for when the writers need to show what Itachi is really capable of doing.

[Drew Van T.]

I doubt Itachi is actually "stronger" than Orochimaru, it's just that he has a one-hit move Oro has no defense against, and Oro seems to have psyched himself out about it. And Itachi didn't want to fight Jiraiya because he knows Jiraya's reputation and isn't sure he could take him in a straight fight. We know Itachi's good, but he basically has one really big gun, and without that there's no indication that he's as powerful as some of the other top-levers in the series.

With that in mind, it's not surprising that he chose to go renegade. Because he could never have risen to Hokage relying on one major ability. From what we've seen, Hokages have to be at the top of their field in every single area (Naruto's bid for Hokage - if we're honest about it - being seriously hampered by the fact that he's an idiot. :D )

Of course, there are other reasons that might explain why Itachi did what he did, too (being stark raving mad is one of them).

[XPac]

With that in mind, it's not surprising that he chose to go renegade. Because he could never have risen to Hokage relying on one major ability. From what we've seen, Hokages have to be at the top of their field in every single area (Naruto's bid for Hokage - if we're honest about it - being seriously hampered by the fact that he's an idiot. :D )

Of course, there are other reasons that might explain why Itachi did what he did, too (being stark raving mad is one of them).

That's as good an explanation as any I suppose... cause truthfully I never understood his explanation of why he slaughtered his clan.

Was it like an initiation or was he just testing his abilities, or was he just a major dick. I think his explanation was something like he was testing is vessel, or something to that effect.

[Enterprise E]

I've wondered why he killed his clan myself. I also wonder if it has anything to do with this secret that the Uchiha clan had that I've been hearing about. And if they do have this secret, what is it?

[Drew Van T.]

What he said - what we know - was some mildly incoherent lines about it being necessary to attain the final stage of his bloodline ability. Apparently you have to destroy that which is closest to you.

Whether that is some hidden knowledge he discovered about the Sharingan (from an ancestral scroll or something) or just something he came to believe all by himself, we don't know for certain. Fact is that he did attain the Mangekyou Sharingan that Orochimaru is so afraid of.

Another way to look at it, though, is that Itachi is simply an example of a very common type of villain in anime: The "Darwinist" (or that's what I call them). Darwinist villains believe that there is a natural order in which only the Strong count (the Strong being himself and his peers, or even just himself), so it doesn't matter whether the weak (his family) get killed. In fact it may be the duty of the strong to dispose of the weak, as the reasoning frequently goes. This strain of villainy - a kind of rigorously applied Darwinism that also tends to veer into Nihilism and Anarchism - is so common that it's a cliché which doesn't require much explanation inside the narrative itself. When you've seen enough villains like that, you immediately recognize the type, because like I said, it's such a cliché by now. In fact it may be a kind of laziness on the part of Japanese writers, because it's the easiest way to give a villain his motivation (but it is also related to the nihilistic streak that is definitely a part of the Japanese collective mind).

An excellent example is Shishou, the burn-victim Mankiller in the Rurouni Kenshin TV series.

[sehthan]

As regards Itachi's motives, and what actually happened that day he apparently massacred his family, it's always felt to me like we weren't being given the whole story. I think there's still a revelation or two coming about why Itachi has done the things he's done, and I think he's got some kind of plan for Sasuke, too.

[Drew Van T.]

As far as Sasuke goes: it is clear that he thinks the same way Itachi does. He's willing to sacrifice that which is closest to him in order to attain his goal (which in this case, ironically, is to kill Itachi). That is the whole reason why things between him and Naruto go the way they do.

It's not just that Sasuke wanted to leave Konoha because he wasn't gaining strength fast enough there. He left because he thinks exactly like Itachi - he may not be killing his closest ones, but he's casting them away. That's the real tragedy - Itachi didn't just kill their parents, he's also forcing Sasuke to become like him.

This is best encapsulated in one particular AMV, using the song "Poison", because that's exactly what Itachi is to Sasuke in more ways than one. (I can't post a link to the AMV yet because Youtube.com is down, but I will.)

I think it is clear enough, even if it is not literally explained anywhere in the series. There is no major secret - this is it, more or less. Anime and manga plots often don't spell everything out for the viewer/reader; you connect the dots on your own.

[G_Man]

I always figured Itachi backed off from fighting Jiraiya because using his Mangekyou more than one time a day puts a huge strain on him (Kisame even states that overusing it puts his life and mind at risk) and he'd just wasted a shot on Sasuke.

If he used another big Mangekyou move and Jiraiya defended, or worse countered, he'd be exhausted and it would basically come down to Kisame vs Jiraiya. Better to back off, and pick a better time. Like he told Kisame, they (Akatsuki) can afford to wait.

Oh, and Drew, the bad guy you're thinking of is Shishio, not Shishou, which is an honorific/title meaning "master", like the master of a dojo. Sakura refers to Tsunade as Shishou. Also, in Fruits Basket, Kyo refers to his martial arts teacher as Shishou.

[XPac]

I always figured Itachi backed off from fighting Jiraiya because using his Mangekyou more than one time a day puts a huge strain on him (Kisame even states that overusing it puts his life and mind at risk) and he'd just wasted a shot on Sasuke.

If he used another big Mangekyou move and Jiraiya defended, or worse countered, he'd be exhausted and it would basically come down to Kisame vs Jiraiya. Better to back off, and pick a better time. Like he told Kisame, they (Akatsuki) can afford to wait.



It's weird though how if the Manekyou is such a taxing move, he's nonetheless willing to use it so liberally. Using it against Sasuke seems almost a waste when you're possibly seconds away from a legendary Sannin.

The guy really needs to come up with another move (or use some of the moves he's undoubtedly copied with his Sharingan).

[Hiromi]

training chapter, quick read, nothing really to comment on, except that Naruto's moving at a much faster pace than a normal Ninja, or Hell even Jerkface, could.

[Drew Van T.]

Oh, and Drew, the bad guy you're thinking of is Shishio, not Shishou, which is an honorific/title meaning "master", like the master of a dojo. Sakura refers to Tsunade as Shishou. Also, in Fruits Basket, Kyo refers to his martial arts teacher as Shishou.

You're right; I should have checked the spelling of the Kenshin villain prior to posting.

Oh, and that Sasuke/Itachi AMV "Poison" is here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqbnFXqqWqo) (but most have probably seen it already).

[sehthan]

It's weird though how if the Manekyou is such a taxing move, he's nonetheless willing to use it so liberally. Using it against Sasuke seems almost a waste when you're possibly seconds away from a legendary Sannin.

The guy really needs to come up with another move (or use some of the moves he's undoubtedly copied with his Sharingan).


I think this is going to be his undoing. It seems that after getting his uber-move, he's neglected everything else and come to rely on it either intimidating his opponets into submission or taking them out immediately. Given what we know about Itachi, he could have been the most versatile ninja in the whole series, but instead he's put all his eggs in one (admittedly scary) basket. And that's going to cost him when someone ends up outmanuevering him.

[XPac]

I think this is going to be his undoing. It seems that after getting his uber-move, he's neglected everything else and come to rely on it either intimidating his opponets into submission or taking them out immediately. Given what we know about Itachi, he could have been the most versatile ninja in the whole series, but instead he's put all his eggs in one (admittedly scary) basket. And that's going to cost him when someone ends up outmanuevering him.

Additionally, it's kind of a dumb move to randomly whip out because I beleive they imply overuse of it hinders normal eye sight.

I'm a bit suprised that with some intelligent planning on their part, Sasuke and Orochimaru couldn't take Itachi now. The only thing that seemingly puts Itachi ahead of Orochimaru is that one move... there's gotta be a way around that.

[sehthan]

I'm a bit suprised that with some intelligent planning on their part, Sasuke and Orochimaru couldn't take Itachi now. The only thing that seemingly puts Itachi ahead of Orochimaru is that one move... there's gotta be a way around that.


I think that they've probably been working on a defense or counter-jutsu together. Between Sasuke having his own Sharingan and Orochimaru's wide range of knowledge, they should be able to cook up something. In fact, now that I think about it, Sasuke may have already shown us his new jutsu when he entered Naruto's mind. Imagine Itachi trying to put the whammy on Sasuke, and Sasuke going Dream Warrior on him and fighting back within the illusion.

Of course, the other way you could take Itachi out would be to swarm him, but that would no doubt be costly.

[XPac]

I think that they've probably been working on a defense or counter-jutsu together. Between Sasuke having his own Sharingan and Orochimaru's wide range of knowledge, they should be able to cook up something. In fact, now that I think about it, Sasuke may have already shown us his new jutsu when he entered Naruto's mind. Imagine Itachi trying to put the whammy on Sasuke, and Sasuke going Dream Warrior on him and fighting back within the illusion.

Of course, the other way you could take Itachi out would be to swarm him, but that would no doubt be costly.

Swarming would work. Ya gotta assume he's gonna assume at least ONE Sharingan on Sasuke (just cause he always likes to do that to him for some reason).

Not sure how many times he can pull if off, but that should be at least one so if he can throw enough people at him where he's gotta use it one or two more times then they might have him right there. Cause for the most part, it doesn't look like he does much else.

I wonder if they're not just waiting till Itachi makes his move on the Nine Tails. Even if he's able to beat Naruto, he'll likely be ripe for the picking.

[G_Man]

Sasuke's trick with entering Naruto's mind seems to be an aspect of the Sharingan itself, and not an actual jutsu. Kyuubi even implied a connection bewteen himself and the Sharingan, which may account for why Sasuke was able to do that in the first place. In which case, Itachi can do it too.

As to why Itachi hasn't had more impressive showings:

The first time we saw him, he humbled Kureani almot immediately, then smoked Kakashi in an instant since he was pressed for time and didn't want a long, drawn out fight so close to Konoha and potential ANBU intervention. He even tells Kisame they are bugging out because it's only a matter of time until the whole village shinobi population comes down on their asses.

He backed off of fighting Jiraiya after realizing he wasted a Tsukiyomi on his idiot brother, because he thought Jiraiya was still distracted with his brainwashed prostitute, which would explain his wasting it in the first place. His only mistake there was overestimating how big a pervert Jiraiya was. He also demonstrated a new big move, in order to escape from the inside of a giant, mountain-sized, fire-breathing toad. A worthy use of Amaterasu indeed.

The last time we saw him, it was a clone with only 30% of the original's power and no Mangekyou, and it still gave Kakashi and Naruto a fight without using any Sharingan tricks.

I personally doubt Orochimaru fears Itachi cuz' of just the Mangekyou alone, fearsome though it is. There has to be something more, otherwise he would use the suggested swarm tatic to wear the Uchiha down since he thinks nothing of sacrificing his own minions.

And if Sasuke could beat Itachi on his own already, he'd ditch Orochimaru and go hunt Itachi. the point is he thinks he and Orochimaru working together can't beat his brother (meaning he knows something we don't), so he's going to try Orochimaru in his body as a last ditch effort, instead of waiting for his brother to go even blinder while he gets stronger, like someone with common sense might.

[XPac]

Sasuke's trick with entering Naruto's mind seems to be an aspect of the Sharingan itself, and not an actual jutsu. Kyuubi even implied a connection bewteen himself and the Sharingan, which may account for why Sasuke was able to do that in the first place. In which case, Itachi can do it too.

As to why Itachi hasn't had more impressive showings:

The first time we saw him, he humbled Kureani almot immediately, then smoked Kakashi in an instant since he was pressed for time and didn't want a long, drawn out fight so close to Konoha and potential ANBU intervention. He even tells Kisame they are bugging out because it's only a matter of time until the whole village shinobi population comes down on their asses.

He backed off of fighting Jiraiya after realizing he wasted a Tsukiyomi on his idiot brother, because he thought Jiraiya was still distracted with his brainwashed prostitute, which would explain his wasting it in the first place. His only mistake there was overestimating how big a pervert Jiraiya was. He also demonstrated a new big move, in order to escape from the inside of a giant, mountain-sized, fire-breathing toad. A worthy use of Amaterasu indeed.

The last time we saw him, it was a clone with only 30% of the original's power and no Mangekyou, and it still gave Kakashi and Naruto a fight without using any Sharingan tricks.

I personally doubt Orochimaru fears Itachi cuz' of just the Mangekyou alone, fearsome though it is. There has to be something more, otherwise he would use the suggested swarm tatic to wear the Uchiha down since he thinks nothing of sacrificing his own minions.

And if Sasuke could beat Itachi on his own already, he'd ditch Orochimaru and go hunt Itachi. the point is he thinks he and Orochimaru working together can't beat his brother (meaning he knows something we don't), so he's going to try Orochimaru in his body as a last ditch effort, instead of waiting for his brother to go even blinder while he gets stronger, like someone with common sense might.


Maybe I'm remembering it wrong... but didn't Itachi use the Mangekyou on Sasuke AFTER Jiraiya showed up? And frankly he seemed more than hesitant to tackle Jiraiya long before the confrontation even took place.

Either way, I am sure that all of the above are capable of doing more than what we've seen. Because of Orochimaru's fights (particularly with Naruto) we do have an idea of what he's capable of doing. But we haven't seen Itachi or Jiraiya really pushed to the same degree. If they are that convinced Itachi can beat them, I'm sure there's reason for it.

Course, I'm wondering the same about Jiraiya.... if Itachi was convinced Jiraiya could kill both Itachi and his partner 2 on 1 I wonder if he he's a lot buffer than he comes off.

[sehthan]

Sasuke's trick with entering Naruto's mind seems to be an aspect of the Sharingan itself, and not an actual jutsu. Kyuubi even implied a connection bewteen himself and the Sharingan, which may account for why Sasuke was able to do that in the first place. In which case, Itachi can do it too.


Jury's still out on this one. That feat was presented as something shocking and unexpected, making it feel like something new. Maybe I'm wrong and it's just something we never knew about, but it's also possible Sasuke's developed a new Sharingan ability similar to the way Kakashi apparently developed the variant Mangekyou.


personally doubt Orochimaru fears Itachi cuz' of just the Mangekyou alone, fearsome though it is. There has to be something more, otherwise he would use the suggested swarm tatic to wear the Uchiha down since he thinks nothing of sacrificing his own minions.


The problem with the swarm tactic is you're still going to have to use your best guys, as Itachi's not to be undersetimated, and he's probably going to take at least a couple with him. Oro may be perfectly willing to sacrifice his pawns, but less so himself, Sasuke or Kabuto. He may not have the manpower. Plus, you'd have to get him away from Kisame.


And if Sasuke could beat Itachi on his own already, he'd ditch Orochimaru and go hunt Itachi. the point is he thinks he and Orochimaru working together can't beat his brother (meaning he knows something we don't), so he's going to try Orochimaru in his body as a last ditch effort, instead of waiting for his brother to go even blinder while he gets stronger, like someone with common sense might.


I think Sasuke's talk of letting Oro take his body may be a bluff. I suspect he's using Oro to learn as much as he can, and plans on killing him when the time comes and Oro tries to claim him. I suspect that's his plan, but I doubt it will go down that simply.

[Len Ikari145]

Sasuke's trick with entering Naruto's mind seems to be an aspect of the Sharingan itself, and not an actual jutsu. Kyuubi even implied a connection bewteen himself and the Sharingan, which may account for why Sasuke was able to do that in the first place. In which case, Itachi can do it too.

Random theory: Could one of the Bijuu's(maybe Hachimata since he's the second strongest next to Kyuubi or even Kyuubi himself) have bestowed the Uchiha family with the Sharingan bloodline trait?

[XPac]

Random theory: Could one of the Bijuu's(maybe Hachimata since he's the second strongest next to Kyuubi or even Kyuubi himself) have bestowed the Uchiha family with the Sharingan bloodline trait?

I think that it was mentioned that the Sharingan descended from the Byakugan.

But there's no doubt that there is some kind of connection between the Kyuubi and the Uchiha family. The line about the cursed chakra and being more evil than the Kyuubi's itself is pretty interesting.

Hopefully we'll get the full story of this Madara Uchiha.

[MKTerra]

OK, I'm sorry, but the part in the anime where Naruto sees Hinata being carried away from the Chuunin semifinals on a stretcher is just too funny :o The way it repeats like 3 times zooming in, with her coat open from Kurenai checking her condition, makes it look like Naruto's going "OMG, Hinata has boobs?! All this time...!" as flashbacks of her (with her coat zipped up) play in the background.

[BigBoss]

I aint nowhere near where you guys are at story wise. is sasuke a villian now with all the talk of him going with orochimaru?

[Enterprise E]

Yes. He is also a lot more like his older brother now, being willing to kill those close to him, to get what he wants.

[apple pro]

He was about to kill Naruto but decided not to because apparently because Naruto's existence improves the chance of of him killing Itachi by 1%.

hahaha

I digress though, the newest chapters are more fun. The way the mangaka grasps "time" does not help his plotting. Naruto training for all of 1 day and becoming this strong is ridiculous. I suppose his training with Jiraiya has gotten him to the point of being able to train like this with Kekashi... but 1 day?

[Len Ikari145]

He was about to kill Naruto but decided not to because apparently because Naruto's existence improves the chance of of him killing Itachi by 1%.

hahaha

I digress though, the newest chapters are more fun. The way the mangaka grasps "time" does not help his plotting. Naruto training for all of 1 day and becoming this strong is ridiculous. I suppose his training with Jiraiya has gotten him to the point of being able to train like this with Kekashi... but 1 day?

Well, with no Kyuubi chakra hindering his training(since this type of training requires Chakra control, which he still sucked out), and the fact he's more determined than ever to get Sasuke back, it's not so unbelievable.

Though I have to admit, Naruto becoming more and more like the Goku of his series.

[Enterprise E]

I think that it's chakra control that he's working on, not necessarily physical strength training. Though chakra control can help Naruto increase his strength. And if any type of chakra will help him increase his speed, it will be wind chakra. I think that it will be his chakra control that will give him the advantage over Sasuke in their rematch if he gets any real advantage. I have a feeling that Sasuke's downfall in the next match may be his reliance on his his Curse Seal and the drugs that he's probably been taking to make himself stronger. Over reliance on the Sharingan, if that does become an issue, may become a problem too, but I feel like that will be Itachi's downfall, not Sasuke's. I just have this feeling that hard work, determination, guts, and getting power the honest way will prevail over natural talent, and artificial growth; and this fight will be the one that proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if this fight doesn't have a satisfactory conclusion either due to Sasuke seeing the light, or due to outside interference. If outside interference does become a factor, I do think that Naruto will be in the advantageous position when it comes.

[XPac]

He was about to kill Naruto but decided not to because apparently because Naruto's existence improves the chance of of him killing Itachi by 1%.

hahaha

I digress though, the newest chapters are more fun. The way the mangaka grasps "time" does not help his plotting. Naruto training for all of 1 day and becoming this strong is ridiculous. I suppose his training with Jiraiya has gotten him to the point of being able to train like this with Kekashi... but 1 day?

When Jiraiya first trained Naruto, I noted that there was an emphasis on him using the chakre of teh 9 tailes. I think it's valid to argue that Jiraiya continued in that line of thought since Naruto was able to accessp the power of the 9 tails (right up to 4 tails) basically on the spot when he fought Orochimaru. That's probably what they were working on.

The problem being that all that is now seemingly useless against Sasuke since he can seemingly dispell the Nine Tails chakra. So in a way Kakashis training at least against Sasuke specifically is more important because it's Naruto using his own chakra rather than the Nine tails.

Also, you have to figure that because he was using the shadow clones, he was getting a lot more training time than we think. If he's using say 1000 clones, then really he went through 1000 days of training in that one day. Kakaishi simply found a nice short cut.

[CE_Rap]

are the filler episodes done yet?! I was watching up until about the 180's, then i couldn't stand it anymore.

[apple pro]

XPac,

what I guess I am saying is that it could have been spread over a week or two but it was not. he split from sakura today, trained with kakashi and the next day after that he sees sakura and he's suddenly a pimpdaddy. when i take guitar lessons, it slowly builds up. i think training in 1 day demeans the actual passage of time in the book. (the clone training was smart but i think 1 day is still waaay short). didn't it still take him and sakura a day or so to get those bells from kakashi after the timeskip? i could be wrong)

[XPac]

XPac,

what I guess I am saying is that it could have been spread over a week or two but it was not. he split from sakura today, trained with kakashi and the next day after that he sees sakura and he's suddenly a pimpdaddy. when i take guitar lessons, it slowly builds up. i think training in 1 day demeans the actual passage of time in the book. (the clone training was smart but i think 1 day is still waaay short). didn't it still take him and sakura a day or so to get those bells from kakashi after the timeskip? i could be wrong)

Again, I think the point is that what is actually just 1 day of training is the equivalent of whatever number of shadowclones he created. And I do believe the first portion had something like a 1000 (though perhaps that wasn't literal).

If he used 1000 clones and this is the equivalent of 1000 days of training, then I don't think that necessarily demeans anything.

And he's obviously not done training yet. He hasn't even passed the second phase of it yet. Nor do we know how uber he's going to come off when he's done yet. If he's super saiyan Naruto 2 days later, then that could be a mistake. It depends how they play it off. But I do think so far they came up with a very clever way of explaining the quick training.

[Hiromi]

are the filler episodes done yet?! I was watching up until about the 180's, then i couldn't stand it anymore.

We're at 198 this week, fillers are confirmed to run until through at least till 201. I haven't actually watched an episode of Naruto since 178, and I've about had it.

[omali]

Many have noticed that the eyes that the Akatsuki leader are rather distinctive; It looks like a Sharingan without tomoe (those comma-like things). It was once believed that they were Sharingan; this was shown to be false and nothing more than a poor scanlation. However, there are other distinctive eyes besides the Sharingan in the world of Naruto. Who else have we encountered in Naruto that have distinctive eyes. The Hyuuga clan members? Probably a bad lead - most would agree that the Hyuuga clan's Byakugan can be easily ruled out as the trait distinguishing the Akatsuki leader's eyes based on appearance alone.

Who else?

Kurenai Yuhi...I know this may sound absurd, but hear me out. Firstly, Kurenai has a distinctive pair of eyes with the same description and appearance as the Akatsuki leader, that is, like a sharingan without tomoe. I have been curious as to what her unique eyes could possibly mean ever since she was introduced, but I soon lost my curiosity as her role in the story diminished. However, the diminishing of her role contradicts her importance as one of Konoha's few introduced jonin with important tasks. The physical likeness between the unexplained eyes of Kurenai and the Akatsuki leader as well as the Kurenai's place in the Naruto world leaves me to believe that there is a good possiblity that Kurenai is indeed connected to our mysterious villian.

Of the key Konoha jounin that have been introduced (Kakashi, Gai, Asuma, and Kurenai) Kurenai has had minimal, if any, character development. This was also true of Asuma until recently. If one were to follow such a pattern, Kurenai is due for some character develoment sooner or later, but she hasn't Such could mean one of two things: (1) Kurenai is not important and needs no further development, or (2) the secrets of her life and history are integral to unfolding the Naruto story in a later time such that her development is being saved for later. I personally believe the latter, especially due to her cameo in one of the recent manga chapters (ch.319), in which there she is shown sitting alone in her apartment with a pensive look right before the special team, of which Asuma is a part, dispatched by Tsunade to hunt down Akatsuki is sent out. This showing of Kurenai foreshadows some future event connected to her intimately. It could possibly be nothing more than another hint at the relationship between Asuma and Kurenai, who may cause both to undergo emotional strife as Asuma may face many dangers, including death in pursuing Akatsuki. However, I believe it to be a foreshadowing of something larger, that is, the revelation of the connection between her and the Akatsuki leader as Konoha is on the brink of a direct assault on Akatsuki. I believe that this connection between Kurenai and the Akatsuki leader is the factor that is causing the delay in the development of this character who seems to be missing development despite her continual appearaces and key place in the story as the Jonin leading three of the Konoha Nine.

In a nutshell, the similarity of Kurenai and the Akatsuki leader's eyes, the paradox of Kurenai's importance in the Naruto world and her lack development, and Kurenai's interesting recent appearance holds the possibility for a connection (possibly kinship) between her and the Akatsuki leader.

I really have never read any Naurto theories before and this is my first post on any forum like this. I just thought it was an interesting theory and wanted to bring my idea to light and possibly get some discussion as to its likelihood of being where Kishimoto is taking the story. I apologize if this theroy has already been developed, discussed and/or disproven such that I am wasting everyone's time.

[Taltos]

last chapter seemed to be a waste of a week, that being said, i still liked it.

[RoguefanAM]

Yay! First post on the Anime & Manga board! *Cough* Back to the discussion...

Many have noticed that the eyes that the Akatsuki leader are rather distinctive; It looks like a Sharingan without tomoe (those comma-like things). It was once believed that they were Sharingan; this was shown to be false and nothing more than a poor scanlation. However, there are other distinctive eyes besides the Sharingan in the world of Naruto. Who else have we encountered in Naruto that have distinctive eyes. The Hyuuga clan members? Probably a bad lead - most would agree that the Hyuuga clan's Byakugan can be easily ruled out as the trait distinguishing the Akatsuki leader's eyes based on appearance alone.

Who else?

Kurenai Yuhi...I know this may sound absurd, but hear me out. Firstly, Kurenai has a distinctive pair of eyes with the same description and appearance as the Akatsuki leader, that is, like a sharingan without tomoe. I have been curious as to what her unique eyes could possibly mean ever since she was introduced, but I soon lost my curiosity as her role in the story diminished. However, the diminishing of her role contradicts her importance as one of Konoha's few introduced jonin with important tasks. The physical likeness between the unexplained eyes of Kurenai and the Akatsuki leader as well as the Kurenai's place in the Naruto world leaves me to believe that there is a good possiblity that Kurenai is indeed connected to our mysterious villian.

Of the key Konoha jounin that have been introduced (Kakashi, Gai, Asuma, and Kurenai) Kurenai has had minimal, if any, character development. This was also true of Asuma until recently. If one were to follow such a pattern, Kurenai is due for some character develoment sooner or later, but she hasn't Such could mean one of two things: (1) Kurenai is not important and needs no further development, or (2) the secrets of her life and history are integral to unfolding the Naruto story in a later time such that her development is being saved for later. I personally believe the latter, especially due to her cameo in one of the recent manga chapters (ch.319), in which there she is shown sitting alone in her apartment with a pensive look right before the special team, of which Asuma is a part, dispatched by Tsunade to hunt down Akatsuki is sent out. This showing of Kurenai foreshadows some future event connected to her intimately. It could possibly be nothing more than another hint at the relationship between Asuma and Kurenai, who may cause both to undergo emotional strife as Asuma may face many dangers, including death in pursuing Akatsuki. However, I believe it to be a foreshadowing of something larger, that is, the revelation of the connection between her and the Akatsuki leader as Konoha is on the brink of a direct assault on Akatsuki. I believe that this connection between Kurenai and the Akatsuki leader is the factor that is causing the delay in the development of this character who seems to be missing development despite her continual appearaces and key place in the story as the Jonin leading three of the Konoha Nine.

In a nutshell, the similarity of Kurenai and the Akatsuki leader's eyes, the paradox of Kurenai's importance in the Naruto world and her lack development, and Kurenai's interesting recent appearance holds the possibility for a connection (possibly kinship) between her and the Akatsuki leader.

I really have never read any Naurto theories before and this is my first post on any forum like this. I just thought it was an interesting theory and wanted to bring my idea to light and possibly get some discussion as to its likelihood of being where Kishimoto is taking the story. I apologize if this theroy has already been developed, discussed and/or disproven such that I am wasting everyone's time.

Very good and well thought-out theory, I whole-heartedly agree with you. It's been hinting at this for a while now and those panels they've shown of Kurenai have only increased my suspicion that something with her is going to happen soon. What exactly her connection is to the Akatsuki leader is harder to figure out...but your right, the most probable theory is that they are kin of some kind. Hopefully they'll reveal what they have in store for her soon.

Even if she doesn't have any connection to the Akatsuki leader, I do hope they give her more panel time; she seems like a very interesting character regardless. :)

[BigBoss]

Well, with no Kyuubi chakra hindering his training(since this type of training requires Chakra control, which he still sucked out), and the fact he's more determined than ever to get Sasuke back, it's not so unbelievable.

Though I have to admit, Naruto becoming more and more like the Goku of his series.
yes I think naruto is too becoming the goku of the seris.

[BigBoss]

that sucks too know that sauske is bad person now. that really pisses me off.

[XPac]

yes I think naruto is too becoming the goku of the seris.

Yeah, but I think we all knew he would be to some degree. We all knew he had the 9 Tails in him, and when he gets in the red zone he can go "super saiyan" using the 9 tails chakra. He was a walking plot device when he needed to be.

That said, in some ways I think they're actually lessening that now as oppossed to before because now there are drawbacks to using his best weapon (unlike Goku who can constantly grow in power when he needs to). So in some ways I think he's actually powered down a bit, despite the new technique he's learning.

[sehthan]

Very good and well thought-out theory, I whole-heartedly agree with you. It's been hinting at this for a while now and those panels they've shown of Kurenai have only increased my suspicion that something with her is going to happen soon. What exactly her connection is to the Akatsuki leader is harder to figure out...but your right, the most probable theory is that they are kin of some kind. Hopefully they'll reveal what they have in store for her soon.


I think the recent introduction of Danzo is likely no coincidence, and it's starting to seem like there may have been some political turmoil in Konoha around the time of the Third's promotion to Hokage. If the Akatsuki leader did turn out to be connected to Kurenai and/or Konoha, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that all of these storylines are connected as well.

[G_Man]

that sucks too know that sauske is bad person now. that really pisses me off.

It pissed me off something fierce to find out, cuz' I had found out shortly after reading the Haku fight, and I had just started to like him as a character after he nearly sacrificed himself to save Naruto from Haku's needles.

[Hiromi]

It pissed me off something fierce to find out, cuz' I had found out shortly after reading the Haku fight, and I had just started to like him as a character after he nearly sacrificed himself to save Naruto from Haku's needles.

Fortunatly I managed to get through it with minimal spoilers, so the change was more gradual, although it also made me dislike him as a character more I believe.

[Magneto_X]

THough I'm not saying it makes sense... I don't think Sasuke would want anyone else involved in a one on one fight with his brother. He'd probably tell everyone else to not interfere, even if he does end up getting his butt kicked.


That's not very "ninja" of him. That's closer to how a samurai would think.

[XPac]

That's not very "ninja" of him. That's closer to how a samurai would think.

In some ways I do think Sasuke comes off more as a Samuri than a ninja (or at least a Samuri that's a bit of a dick at times). Heck, he even kind of dresses like one these day. Minus the armor.

[XPac]

It pissed me off something fierce to find out, cuz' I had found out shortly after reading the Haku fight, and I had just started to like him as a character after he nearly sacrificed himself to save Naruto from Haku's needles.

It's done in a reasonably believable way, at least in regards to him being consistant with the character. It's not like he turns into Darth Vader overnight or anything, so it's not TOO bad.

[Enterprise E]

Just took a look at the current chapter. I must wonder what Jiraiya was doing with Naruto for two and a half years, looking at Naruto's Sexy Jutsu? Imagine what a two or three tailed Naruto could do with a completed Rasengan. And with Naruto's chakra level and stamina, I doubt that teaching him elemental affinities would be take too much time. And I don't know how Jiraiya wouldn't know that the Rasengan was an incomplete technique. After all, he taught the Fourth Hokage. I think that the Fourth would tell him, or that Jiraiya would find out on his own, what he was trying to do with the technique, especially if he taught his sensei the technique. Really, the fact that the Rasengan was an incomplete technique was not as big as a surprise as the fact that Kakashi knew the attack. I must say that Kakashi is looking to be the better sensei for Naruto.

As for Asuma and the Ninju Shotai, I have a feeling that the upcoming encounter will either go one of two ways, either Asuma and crew get massacred with maybe Shikamaru surviving, or Asuma and crew manage to take one or both of the Akatsuki members out with many of the Ninju Shotai dying in the process. I also wouldn't be surprised if Naruto tested his new completed Rasengan (you know he'll succeed) on either Hidan or Kakuzu in battle.

[XPac]

Just took a look at the current chapter. I must wonder what Jiraiya was doing with Naruto for two and a half years, looking at Naruto's Sexy Jutsu? Imagine what a two or three tailed Naruto could do with a completed Rasengan. And with Naruto's chakra level and stamina, I doubt that teaching him elemental affinities would be take too much time. And I don't know how Jiraiya wouldn't know that the Rasengan was an incomplete technique. After all, he taught the Fourth Hokage. I think that the Fourth would tell him, or that Jiraiya would find out on his own, what he was trying to do with the technique, especially if he taught his sensei the technique. Really, the fact that the Rasengan was an incomplete technique was not as big as a surprise as the fact that Kakashi knew the attack. I must say that Kakashi is looking to be the better sensei for Naruto.

As for Asuma and the Ninju Shotai, I have a feeling that the upcoming encounter will either go one of two ways, either Asuma and crew get massacred with maybe Shikamaru surviving, or Asuma and crew manage to take one or both of the Akatsuki members out with many of the Ninju Shotai dying in the process. I also wouldn't be surprised if Naruto tested his new completed Rasengan (you know he'll succeed) on either Hidan or Kakuzu in battle.


Jiraiya did imply though that he taught Naruto some kind of move that's probably uber because he told him not to use it, if I'm not mistaken.

Also, I guess the fact that Naruto can pretty much go up to 3-4 tails at will shows some level of control. You almost don't need to learn moves if you can become the 3 tails with some level of control.

The problem with Jiraiyas training was that it focused on him using the chakra of the nine tails. We saw that as an emphasis very realy on when he was teaching Naruto to frogs. And that's certainly practical, but now he's in a position where his opponent Sasuke seemingly can dispel the power of the 9 tails. So I think the point is less that he didn't train and learn a lot from Jiraiya but more that his training isn't helpful against the specific opponent he needs to deal with now.

[zero913]

i was just watching the latest episode (i think it was 198, or maybe 199?) anyways, i've always wondered why neji and hinata's byakugan makes a different noise when they activate it. haha stupid question but whatev, neji's sounds way cooler. and whats with the different hand seals too? they make one seal before they activate it, and they're both different. i dont get it. haha

[Drew Van T.]

i was just watching the latest episode (i think it was 198, or maybe 199?) anyways, i've always wondered why neji and hinata's byakugan makes a different noise when they activate it.

I think that's just an accompanying, embellishing sound effect for the benefit of us, the viewer, and his power doesn't actually make a sound (how could it? Imagine if he had to use his eyes while having to stay hidden, lol. Now - just for the hell of it - imagine if Naruto's shadowclones disappearing sounded like a fart, rotflmao.)

And of course it makes sense to distinguish Neji's and Hinata's accompanying sound, since they're different characters. It's a very old habit, going back to opera and handed down to filmmaking, of giving each character their own musical, recognizable motifs in the score, and this is similar.

[zero913]

oh and another random thought about hand seals, what is that seal thingy that naruto does for kage bunshins? and then way back in the first fight with zabuza and haku, naruto does a whole bunch of hand seals before the normal one ... so does that mean those hand seals are unnecessary, or else why does he skip them all the time? blarg.

[G_Man]

It's done in a reasonably believable way, at least in regards to him being consistant with the character. It's not like he turns into Darth Vader overnight or anything, so it's not TOO bad.

How is it believeable?

Right up to the fight with Gaara, he's still loyal to the point where he refuses to use the curse seal except to try and save Sakura's life. Then Naruto beats Gaara and he gets jealous, Itachi beats his ass and tells him "You don't hate me enough", and he takes this as a sign to betray the freakin' village?!

If he was that jealous of Naruto's power, why not try to find out just how he got that power? I mean, for goodness sake, he thinks he can't get strong enough in Konoha because someone who he believed was weaker than him, and who was born and raised in Konoha, got stronger than him?! What kind of logic is he employing?

There's nothing to imply he couldn't get strong enough there. And don't go mentioning how he's improved post-time skip as evidence. At the time of his betrayal he had no idea becoming a traitor would yield such positive results. He had no way of seeing the future, so evidence that's hindsight shouldn't be used to show that he had good judgement. Especially when every bit of evidence he had at the time (emphasis on at the time because again, he had no way of knowing that he would actually get so much stronger with Oro) showed that staying in Konha was the way to go.

Orochimaru and Itachi both were trained in Konha, and both became famous for their strength while they were still apart of the village before becoming traitors. The fact that all of Orochimaru's curse seal wielding minions had been beaten should have been evidence that maybe Oro wasn't the way to go. He had no reason to think Orochimaru would really be of benefit to him since the curse seal only ever helped him win one fight before he turned traitor (against other Sound-nins no less).

There is nothing to convince me that the logic he used was believeable.

[Len Ikari145]

How is it believeable?

Right up to the fight with Gaara, he's still loyal to the point where he refuses to use the curse seal except to try and save Sakura's life. Then Naruto beats Gaara and he gets jealous, Itachi beats his ass and tells him "You don't hate me enough", and he takes this as a sign to betray the freakin' village?!

If he was that jealous of Naruto's power, why not try to find out just how he got that power? I mean, for goodness sake, he thinks he can't get strong enough in Konoha because someone who he believed was weaker than him, and who was born and raised in Konoha, got stronger than him?! What kind of logic is he employing?

There's nothing to imply he couldn't get strong enough there. And don't go mentioning how he's improved post-time skip as evidence. At the time of his betrayal he had no idea becoming a traitor would yield such positive results. He had no way of seeing the future, so evidence that's hindsight shouldn't be used to show that he had good judgement. Especially when every bit of evidence he had at the time (emphasis on at the time because again, he had no way of knowing that he would actually get so much stronger with Oro) showed that staying in Konha was the way to go.

Orochimaru and Itachi both were trained in Konha, and both became famous for their strength while they were still apart of the village before becoming traitors. The fact that all of Orochimaru's curse seal wielding minions had been beaten should have been evidence that maybe Oro wasn't the way to go. He had no reason to think Orochimaru would really be of benefit to him since the curse seal only ever helped him win one fight before he turned traitor (against other Sound-nins no less).

There is nothing to convince me that the logic he used was believeable.

That, and the fact that it's been hinted that he's been taking supplementary drugs to increase his power doesn't help his case.

[Enterprise E]

I have a feeling that using the Curse Seal during his battles with Gaara and Itachi (I think he used it there as well) helped erode his own will power and make him want to seek more power, which Orochimaru could offer him. I also think that those drugs are going to have a negative effect on him in the long run as well. Even with them, he still isn't anywhere near Itachi. It's gotten to the point where he's even willing to let Orochimaru take over him if it allows him to kill Itachi, and the fact that he's foresaking all of his previous attachments due to his tunnel vision on Itachi, and I think that the Curse Seal is partially responsible for that, though Sasuke isn't doing anything to try to change that. I hope that in his next encounter with Naruto, Naruto realizes that Sasuke is becoming like Itachi to a point and tells Jerkface directly that he's becoming like the very guy he wants dead. I wonder how Sasuke would react to hearing that.

[Melchior]

oh and another random thought about hand seals, what is that seal thingy that naruto does for kage bunshins? and then way back in the first fight with zabuza and haku, naruto does a whole bunch of hand seals before the normal one ... so does that mean those hand seals are unnecessary, or else why does he skip them all the time? blarg.

Well, the way I see it is that the seals are used to help mold the chakra into a desired "shape", which then produces a technique. In the earlier bits (and occasionally for drama), Naruto uses the full set of seals. Over time, his body gets "used" to performing the technique, so he only needs to do the final seal as a reminder to mold the chakra into the correct "shape" to use the technique.

On a side note, since this idea would apply for all ninjas, it would also explain why someone cannot simply watch a ninja's hands and learn the technique they are performing. There is no telling if it is the full set of seals, or an abbreviation due to experience and minor variations in the way a different village molds chakra.

[XPac]

How is it believeable?

Right up to the fight with Gaara, he's still loyal to the point where he refuses to use the curse seal except to try and save Sakura's life. Then Naruto beats Gaara and he gets jealous, Itachi beats his ass and tells him "You don't hate me enough", and he takes this as a sign to betray the freakin' village?!

If he was that jealous of Naruto's power, why not try to find out just how he got that power? I mean, for goodness sake, he thinks he can't get strong enough in Konoha because someone who he believed was weaker than him, and who was born and raised in Konoha, got stronger than him?! What kind of logic is he employing?

There's nothing to imply he couldn't get strong enough there. And don't go mentioning how he's improved post-time skip as evidence. At the time of his betrayal he had no idea becoming a traitor would yield such positive results. He had no way of seeing the future, so evidence that's hindsight shouldn't be used to show that he had good judgement. Especially when every bit of evidence he had at the time (emphasis on at the time because again, he had no way of knowing that he would actually get so much stronger with Oro) showed that staying in Konha was the way to go.

Orochimaru and Itachi both were trained in Konha, and both became famous for their strength while they were still apart of the village before becoming traitors. The fact that all of Orochimaru's curse seal wielding minions had been beaten should have been evidence that maybe Oro wasn't the way to go. He had no reason to think Orochimaru would really be of benefit to him since the curse seal only ever helped him win one fight before he turned traitor (against other Sound-nins no less).

There is nothing to convince me that the logic he used was believeable.

I think there's some logic to thinking that your ability would be increased by training under one of the legendary three. Not that Kakashi is a slouch, Orochimaru was obviously the more powerful ninja. And he knows that Kakashi already taught him what I believe they said was Kakashi's only original move, so perhaps he felt he felt he want as far with Kakashi as he thought he could go.

His logic may have been as simple as him being offered to be trained by the most powerful ninja he knows next to his brother.

[sehthan]

His logic may have been as simple as him being offered to be trained by the most powerful ninja he knows next to his brother.


It's also important to remember that he was an emotionally disturbed child. Logic is not going to be his strong suit.

[Enterprise E]

I just saw the newest chapter. Naruto's training has hit a little bump in the road with adding wind Chakra to the Rasengan being pretty hard. Yamato better be able to hold up, because I don't think that anyone in Konoha could deal with Naruto if he ever went Four Tails. The biggest thing, though, was the Shotai's encounter with Hidan. Taking two large kunai in the chest and just saying "ouch", and other than that, seeming to be unfazed, I think that the Ninju Shotai's chances of survival, slim as they were, just got cut down another few notches. I would be very surprised if anyone other than Shikamaru, and maybe Asuma, made it out of this fight alive. I also have a feeling that Naruto's going to eventually end up facing down Hidan and that if anything is going to kill him, it'll be Naruto's complete Rasengan destroying his body.

[Azangel]

It's also important to remember that he was an emotionally disturbed child. Logic is not going to be his strong suit.


Exxxxxcellent point.

[Sheldon]

Great issue, I loved the little trap they setup up for Hidan. Too bad I don't think bladed weapons are going to be too effective against him. Let the slaughter begin!

[zero913]

yeah theres no way hidan is dead ... i mean, he normally impales himself with a stick for his silly little rituals all the time. why would the sword things do anything to him? somebody's gonna get izzowned hard.

[Jared_Humpherys]

On Sasuke's logic:

Sasuke has always been regarded as a genius ninja. At the same time, Itachi kept impressing on him that he needed to cut off his emotional ties, save for hatred, in order to become stronger. When Naruto developed at a faster rate than him, Sasuke saw it as evidence that having emotional ties with others was slowing his own development, to the point that subpar ninjas were improving at a rate that equaled or surpassed his own. Since he wa sin Konoha and wasn't developing at that rate, then logically, being a genius ninja, he would gain strength faster outside of Konoha.

When one looks at it that way, it actually makes sense...sorta.

[XPac]

On Sasuke's logic:

Sasuke has always been regarded as a genius ninja. At the same time, Itachi kept impressing on him that he needed to cut off his emotional ties, save for hatred, in order to become stronger. When Naruto developed at a faster rate than him, Sasuke saw it as evidence that having emotional ties with others was slowing his own development, to the point that subpar ninjas were improving at a rate that equaled or surpassed his own. Since he wa sin Konoha and wasn't developing at that rate, then logically, being a genius ninja, he would gain strength faster outside of Konoha.

When one looks at it that way, it actually makes sense...sorta.

It's been the 2 competing philosophies in Naruto... the notion of whether ties and having someone to fight for makes you stronger or weaker.

That's why it works to have 2 champions of both philosophies. When Naruto and Sasuke finally do fight, they can prove which philosophy ultimately makes you stronger (and obviously Naruto will win).

[apple pro]

didn't Sasuke already win?

yeah. he did.

[XPac]

didn't Sasuke already win?

yeah. he did.


Yes, they have fought before. I meant that when the meet again, after having several years of training under different philosophies. Sasuke had a couple years to train without emotional ties... so the question is whether he got farther that way or not.

Granted they did sort of fight in Naruto 2, but that was somewhat inconclusive. Naruto wasn't at 100%, and neither one really got the opportunity to bring out the big guns. Though for what it's worth, I think Sasuke probably would have won.

[Enterprise E]

Yeah, Sasuke would have probably won, but I don't think that it would have been a curbstomp. Also, Naruto's wish to bring him back instead of killing him may also have been a hindrance if they fought at full power, seeing as Sasuke had no inhibitions about killing Naruto, while Naruto would have to be careful that an Odama Rasengan didn't accidentally take off Sasuke's head.

[BigBoss]

alright lets talk anime right now will somebody tell me if orochimaru dies are not yet I have been skipping episodes like crazy and am up to ep 199. havent senn episode 146 through 198. please awnser question cuz man would like to know. and yes I know that orochimaru dosent die cause