Forget Bruce...Jason is a d_ck!

[Sean Whitmore]

When did it become the status quo that Jason Todd was a little a-hole jerk? A perpetual rule breaker, smarmy, and self-destructive?

It seems to be Chuck Dixon who mentions this alot, noticeably in the current issue of Nightwing. Jason lets a civilian get "killed" during a training exercise and his excuse is "she was probably a stoolie"? The hell?

And all this "Jason Todd is Hugh/Red Hood/the IC killer/the villain behind Countdown" speculation just seems weird and off-the-wall to me.

I wasn't following the Bat books when Jason died, but I always enjoyed the character when I perused the back issues. He was smart, he was reverant of the legacy he upheld (something Dick never really had to worry about, being the first), and he seemed to me to be a great partner.

Did he argue with Bruce and occasionally disobey him? Yes, but so did Dick (especially retroactively). So did Barbara. So did Tim (just not recently, cause he knows he'd get a beatin' these days).

Did he get himself killed by the Joker? Yes. But put Dick or Tim or BRUCE in that same situation, where their once-thought-dead mother betrayed him, and mark my words, every one of them goes down just as easily.

Did he push a murderer off of a building? Um...maybe. :) But this was post-Crisis Todd. Post-Crisis Todd was a street kid with no faith in the legal system (and no reason to have any). He never got the speech from his loving parents that all people deserve a chance, and justice prevails, and all that. And he hadn't been working with Batman long enough for that to rub off on him, nor did he meet Bats early enough to curtail those feelings of revenge in the first place.

So c'mon, doesn't Jason deserve a break? He beat Mongul, for pete's sake. :D


SEAN

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I think the seeds were planted that Jason Todd would be an awesome villain was In the Leob/Lee run of the book. The whole Issue where Bruce faces down the supposed Jason Todd who's older,pissed and seems to know all the secrets had fans salivating!

DC has seemingly followed up on It. And rumors of him being nuts and crazy as Robin seems to be the seeds that are leading to a return at some point. Him as a bad guy would be pretty cool I think.

[Karl J. Barnes]

Having Jason be the villain , does seem a bit forced. Maybe Ra's dug him up and put him in a Lazerus pit and revived him and did what Nyssa did to Talia, thus changing him from the Jason of old to this new bad guy. That is IF he is the Red Hood, etc etc.

[Kistler]

It's not like this is a whole NEW idea though. I mean, Jason was pretty directly implied as being a killer when he confronted a wife-beater with diplomatic immunity. He was angry and vengeful and when Batman arrived that guy (delgado i think his name was, but i could be mistaken) was falling to his death (and then promptly went splat). and when Bruce asked if he was pushed or fell, Jason just stared at him coldly and swung away.

And as for the "she was probably a stoolie" comment, I actually found that the funny remark of a street-wise kid who would probably be very comfortable hanging out with guy gardner, not as someone who was inherrently evil or sociopathic or anything. he's a 14 year old punk who lives on the street boosting tires, kids like that are all ABOUT trash talk rather than say "no, you were right, I misfired there."

[stealthwise]

Jason Todd was great when Moore wrote him in "For the Man who has Everything", but in everything else he was kind of a prick. I hope that they don't bring him back.

[Forsaken_One]

Wasn't Jason just a Dick Grayons clone before Crisis?

[stealthwise]

Wasn't Jason just a Dick Grayons clone before Crisis?

Yeah, his dead parents were acrobats called the "Flying Todds". :)

[Sean Whitmore]

Wasn't Jason just a Dick Grayons clone before Crisis?


True enough. :) But that alone oughta rise him above all these "Jason was such a timebomb" flashbacks that the characters have so often.


SEAN

[palaeomerus]

To everyone saying that Jason Todd is dead because we saw his death please remember that we saw Dick become Nightwing too and now that's been retconned into something else. So all they have to do to have a Red Hood with Jason in side is retell his death in such a way as to give him an out. Heck...they could retcon Hush's grave side scene if they wanted too.

They retconned Joe Chill into possibly being replaced as the murderer of Batman's parents by Metallo(before he became a Kryptonite powered cyborg). They even retconned Joe Chill into that story when previously it was just a robbery gone wrong by some faceless thug.

Now I'm thinking that the Red Hood is Harvey Dent sprouting a new personality.

[Sean Whitmore]

Now I'm thinking that the Red Hood is Harvey Dent srputing a new personality.


But could Harvey out-fight Batman like that?


SEAN

[Forsaken_One]

Black Mask out fought Batman. Would it really be a streach for a writer to make Dent a martial artist now?

[barbgrayson]

what's the point of bringing him back anyways?

[clt123456789]

yeah if they bring jason back why not bring back the :confused: kara zor-el, supergirl or krypto or the rainbow colored kryptonites? oh shit....what issue does jason todd return as some freaking hopped up uber-villain? lol...laters folks!

[Hellfan]

It's not like this is a whole NEW idea though. I mean, Jason was pretty directly implied as being a killer when he confronted a wife-beater with diplomatic immunity. He was angry and vengeful and when Batman arrived that guy (delgado i think his name was, but i could be mistaken) was falling to his death (and then promptly went splat). and when Bruce asked if he was pushed or fell, Jason just stared at him coldly and swung away.

I can't help think Star Wars prequel right now :D

The story arc in Batman right now, seems to deal with this Jason thing - but maybe we will get some info in "hush 2"

[Sharcque]

please remember that we saw Dick become Nightwing too and now that's been retconned into something else.
I guess I don't know what this means. I've always been a "casual" Batman reader, until a couple years ago. Can someone explain this?

Black Mask out fought Batman.
And I have serious issues with this!!! How is it that Steph comes a hair's length away from handing Black Mask's ass to him, but Batman can't easily beat him. By that, then Steph coulda beat Batman's ass..... :confused:

[Forsaken_One]

I guess I don't know what this means. I've always been a "casual" Batman reader, until a couple years ago. Can someone explain this?
Originally (pre-Crisis) Dick Grayson decided not to be Robin anymore. He left his position and gave it over to Jason Todd (who was then a Dick Grayon clone, with his family having been acrobats in a circus who were killed). Dick eventually became Nightwing in the Teen Titans.

Then the Crisis happened and everything was fair game. Since Jason was no longer supposed to be a Dick Grayson clone and was turned into a streetwise punk the whole "handing the torch" wouldn't fit as well. In addition I believe Dick's decision to leave had something to do with the Earth 2 Robin, who no longer existed. In any event they made it into Batman firing Dick rather than Dick stepping down, and then later Dick took up the Nightwing threads.

At least that's what I've been given to understand.

And I have serious issues with this!!! How is it that Steph comes a hair's length away from handing Black Mask's ass to him, but Batman can't easily beat him. By that, then Steph coulda beat Batman's ass..... :confused:
This is an example of what I like to call "bad writing." They needed some way to get Oracle out of Gotham along with everyone else. Well, why not make Batman into an idiot who can't manage his own war games, doesn't password protect his computer, and doesn't let Tim be with his girlfriend in her final moments? Also why not Steph into a moron who implements instructions she can't understand, then have her tortured and killed off? I mean, no one really likes her and ever Batman crossover needs a pointless death to strike home. Plus this'll let Tim have a girlfriend in the Titans like Dick did and that'll make him even more of a mini-nightwing!

Okay, that was a bit of a rant. Ah well.

[Sharcque]

Thanks alot, F1!!!!

I have one more (off-thread subject, but on subject with your explanation) question:

In Wargames, Bruce says the one thing that went wrong with Steph carrying out his "gangland merger" plan was that Matches Malone was supposed to be there to be the spokesman. If that's what his "plan" said, and if Steph didn't know that Bruce was Matches, how did she think that Matches would even know to show up at that meeting if she had no way of contacting "him"? this has been bugging me for months....

[Sean Whitmore]

In Wargames, Bruce says the one thing that went wrong with Steph carrying out his "gangland merger" plan was that Matches Malone was supposed to be there to be the spokesman. If that's what his "plan" said, and if Steph didn't know that Bruce was Matches, how did she think that Matches would even know to show up at that meeting if she had no way of contacting "him"? this has been bugging me for months....


My guess is that Bats never actually wrote Matches name down anywhere. A contingency so, if an enemy ever got his hands on the war games scenario (ala Ra's), he wouldn't be able to unite the gangs under his leadership, which was Bruce's original intention.


SEAN

[Dee3]

Originally (pre-Crisis) Dick Grayson decided not to be Robin anymore. He left his position and gave it over to Jason Todd (who was then a Dick Grayon clone, with his family having been acrobats in a circus who were killed). Dick eventually became Nightwing in the Teen Titans.

Then the Crisis happened and everything was fair game. Since Jason was no longer supposed to be a Dick Grayson clone and was turned into a streetwise punk the whole "handing the torch" wouldn't fit as well. In addition I believe Dick's decision to leave had something to do with the Earth 2 Robin, who no longer existed. In any event they made it into Batman firing Dick rather than Dick stepping down, and then later Dick took up the Nightwing threads.

At least that's what I've been given to understand.


This is an example of what I like to call "bad writing." They needed some way to get Oracle out of Gotham along with everyone else. Well, why not make Batman into an idiot who can't manage his own war games, doesn't password protect his computer, and doesn't let Tim be with his girlfriend in her final moments? Also why not Steph into a moron who implements instructions she can't understand, then have her tortured and killed off? I mean, no one really likes her and ever Batman crossover needs a pointless death to strike home. Plus this'll let Tim have a girlfriend in the Titans like Dick did and that'll make him even more of a mini-nightwing!

Okay, that was a bit of a rant. Ah well.
Well, I was wondering this as well. But a break up could of solved the so called Steph problem and anyway I liked her. but nice rant.

[Charagon]

My guess is that Bats never actually wrote Matches name down anywhere. A contingency so, if an enemy ever got his hands on the war games scenario (ala Ra's), he wouldn't be able to unite the gangs under his leadership, which was Bruce's original intention.


SEAN



Buat the beginning of War Games Steph is telling Catwoman about how it all went bad because Matches didn't show up.

[Sean Whitmore]

Buat the beginning of War Games Steph is telling Catwoman about how it all went bad because Matches didn't show up.


Hmm...that doesn't make much sense, does it? :confused:


SEAN

[Charagon]

That should be part of the title.

War Games: That doesn't make much sense, does it?

[Doom]

Buat the beginning of War Games Steph is telling Catwoman about how it all went bad because Matches didn't show up.


Unless the plan was written as.

"Arrange a meeting of all the major ganlords in Gotham. Matches Malone will show up and he'll take control."
But this assumes Batman's reluctant to give away ANY of his secrets even in his own personal files. This is possible, just creepy.

[Sean Whitmore]

Not to bring this thread back on topic or anything ( :D ), but this week's Nightwing is a perfect example of what I mean. I don't know if it's Dixon or Beatty, but between the two of them they thoroughly turned Jason into a completely unlikeable little asshole. And invalidated a great back issue to boot.



SEAN

[clt123456789]

[QUOTE=Forsaken_One]Originally (pre-Crisis) Dick Grayson decided not to be Robin anymore. He left his position and gave it over to Jason Todd (who was then a Dick Grayon clone, with his family having been acrobats in a circus who were killed). Dick eventually became Nightwing in the Teen Titans.

Then the Crisis happened and everything was fair game. Since Jason was no longer supposed to be a Dick Grayson clone and was turned into a streetwise punk the whole "handing the torch" wouldn't fit as well. In addition I believe Dick's decision to leave had something to do with the Earth 2 Robin, who no longer existed. In any event they made it into Batman firing Dick rather than Dick stepping down, and then later Dick took up the Nightwing threads.

actually..its two things that originally made dick stop being Robin...first he had grown up and was ready to leave the shadow of being part of Batman and...Robin...second Bruce had adopted Jason for some reason and this caused a temporary rift between Bruce and Dick, but in a nice scene i want to say in Tales of the New Teen Titans #50 in like 4 panels bruce and dick settle a problem like adults...no argueing, no yelling and no overly dramatiziting..hard to believe these two really got along that way once huh?

as for your Earth 2 Robin idea..dick became Nightwing in i want to say 1983. for those of you who know your timeline of real world versus dcu time that would be most like 2 to 3 years before Crisis on Infinite Earths..which was where Robin 1 or the Dick Grayson of Earth 2 first dies, then some time in 1986 is totally retconed out of existence....

and for those of you who remember it or know about i the old bottled city of Kandor from pre-crisis Superman books, here is where and how he originally picks his new name. In Kandor, at one time for some reason, don't ask me to try to recall why, Bruce and Superman shrink down and decide to become the batman and robin of Kandor(for some reason supes always kept this city in a bottle under Red Sun radiation so that there weren't like thousands of 1 inch tall superman powered folk loose). the names that batman and supes use in kandor are Nightwing and Flamebird. when dick grayson is putting on his new costume for the first time he thought balloons his explanations for the choice of color, style and picking the name to pay homage to either bruce or superman. before any of you folk try to argue with me go and find a trade of the Judas Contract from the New Teen Titans series (the wolfman/perez one from 1981-1988 or 89 i think) read character 3 of this most wonderful story, then come back and try to say i'm wrong. i've read Judas Contract so many times i most likely recite dialogue from it word for word in my sleep i suspect. it was the story that really got me into comics...so please don't even try to say i'm wrong about any of this stuff til yu've read at least Judas Contract Book 3: There Shall Come A Titan! ok? laters...have a gooder and please if you can buy and read some tradepaperbacks of stories published before say 1 year ago..they are far superior to even the stuff that i'm so excited about today that they are all worth the cash! :evilsmile

[palaeomerus]

I think it was Superman and Jimmy Olsen who became Nightwing and Flamebird in Kandor.

[Kistler]

It was indeed Superman and Jimmy Olsen who first used the identities of Nightwing and Flamebird in Kandor. WHile there, Supes had no powers and thus he and Jimmy adopted disguises in homage to Batman and Robin. But "there are no bats or robins on Krypton" so the duo adopted two Kryptonian birds, the nightwing and flamebird. Later, when they left Kandor and returned to the bigger real world, they turned it over to Clark's cousin Van-El and his buddy or son or something. What happened to Van-El later on was never explored as far as I know, so for all we know there were technically now TWO Nightwings when Dick adopted his guise up until the Crisis when Van-El was wiped from existence.

[Joker2503]

I wasn't into comics during the "Death in the Family" storyline ( stopped reading while Dick was still Robin, and started again when Tim was Robin), but after reading Nightwing: Year One so far, I would definitely vote to kill Jason. He's just a little prick. He's a loudmouth little jackass that I'm surprised Batman himself didn't bludgeon with a crowbar.

[Sean Whitmore]

I wasn't into comics during the "Death in the Family" storyline ( stopped reading while Dick was still Robin, and started again when Tim was Robin), but after reading Nightwing: Year One so far, I would definitely vote to kill Jason. He's just a little prick. He's a loudmouth little jackass that I'm surprised Batman himself didn't bludgeon with a crowbar.


See, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Readers who are only familiar with Jason through flashbacks are getting this weird reimagining of the character as an asshole in green booties, which seems to have come out of nowhere.

Can't the Bat-writers have a little friggin respect for the dead? You don't see Marvel doing flashbacks showing Bucky as a racist or something.


SEAN

[Forsaken_One]

Can't the Bat-writers have a little friggin respect for the dead? You don't see Marvel doing flashbacks showing Bucky as a racist or something.
No, but you do see flashbacks saying Gwen Stacy had an affair with Norman Osborn. ;)

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

and for those of you who remember it or know about i the old bottled city of Kandor from pre-crisis Superman books, here is where and how he originally picks his new name. In Kandor, at one time for some reason, don't ask me to try to recall why, Bruce and Superman shrink down and decide to become the batman and robin of Kandor(for some reason supes always kept this city in a bottle under Red Sun radiation so that there weren't like thousands of 1 inch tall superman powered folk loose). the names that batman and supes use in kandor are Nightwing and Flamebird. when dick grayson is putting on his new costume for the first time he thought balloons his explanations for the choice of color, style and picking the name to pay homage to either bruce or superman. before any of you folk try to argue with me go and find a trade of the Judas Contract from the New Teen Titans series (the wolfman/perez one from 1981-1988 or 89 i think) read character 3 of this most wonderful story, then come back and try to say i'm wrong. i've read Judas Contract so many times i most likely recite dialogue from it word for word in my sleep i suspect. it was the story that really got me into comics...so please don't even try to say i'm wrong about any of this stuff til yu've read at least Judas Contract Book 3: There Shall Come A Titan! ok? laters...have a gooder and please if you can buy and read some tradepaperbacks of stories published before say 1 year ago..they are far superior to even the stuff that i'm so excited about today that they are all worth the cash! :evilsmile


it's better form, and makes you cooler to boot, if you wait until someone disagrees with you, before you go ona rant about how right you are, and how not to question you.
Seems less deaperate for validation if you do it that way.

Can't the Bat-writers have a little friggin respect for the dead? You don't see Marvel doing flashbacks showing Bucky as a racist or something.

yeah, see above dude.
This is a rare case of DC stealing from Marvel.

[Sean Whitmore]

No, but you do see flashbacks saying Gwen Stacy had an affair with Norman Osborn. ;)


Heh. The rare valid point. :)


SEAN

[dancj]

Can't the Bat-writers have a little friggin respect for the dead? You don't see Marvel doing flashbacks showing Bucky as a racist or something.


He's not dead - he's a fictionaly character. He doesn't deserve any respect

[sikkbones]

trust me back in the day jason todd was an annoying little prick too.....

[Sean Whitmore]

He's not dead - he's a fictionaly character.


I thank you for the revelation, but am sad to inform you that line is no more clever than when the first guy came up with it, back when message boards were first invented. :)


trust me back in the day jason todd was an annoying little prick too.....


I gotta disagree. Aside from that one "did he or didn't he" incident with the rapist on the roof, Jason never exhibited any traits that would label him any more of a jerk than Dick or Tim.


SEAN

[Forsaken_One]

Eh, maybe they'll reimagine him when they fiix this whole bat-jerk thing that's going around. Heh, right. And maybe someday they'll keep him to his own books as well. While I'm at it I might as well imagine DC'll give me 40% of profits from all their movies and merchendizing, it's about as realistic.

[dancj]

I thank you for the revelation, but am sad to inform you that line is no more clever than when the first guy came up with it, back when message boards were first invented. :)

My point was the the whole respect for the dead think is meaningless. He's a fictional character and any way DC choose to treat him is fair game.