Virtue and Vice : Worth buying?

[Brian R]

I was looking through trades at one of the local shop today and saw a copy of JLA/JSA -Virtue and Vice. It was written by Johns, who is one of my favorite writers, but I still hesitated because even the best writers can occasionally falter, so I wanted to know what you guy had to say about it. Is it good, bad, and most importantly, is it worth my cash? Thanks in advance.

[Michael P]

Short answer, yes. Long answer, hell yes.

[Mon-el]

Its worth YOUR money.

Its worth it in Hardcover in my opinion.

One of the best reads over 2 years ago.

[Brian R]

Good to know! I think I will be picking this up now, in fact, I regret not buying it right away. :D

[Lex]

Johns and Goyer worked hard to put in as many "THAT'S SO COOL!" moments into this book as they possibly could. From cover to cover this book is just pure fun.

Get it!

Love it!

Hug the pages!

[marshal99]

Great art by Pacheco and great story by Johns. Awesome teamup of the JLA/JSA.
Johnny Sorrow & Despero really established themselves as worthy villains.

[SlightlyMad]

An excellent book, not essential, but worth owning. Especially for fans of JSA who want to see more of Johnny Sorrow; a truly superb villain.

[Indy24LA]

This is the book that got me into the JSA (my second fav. series right now). I didn't know P. Diddy about the JSA when I read this and it made me go and get the entire run.

[Bat-Mite]

The art is great, but, even though I have read the book twice, for the life of me I cannot remember anything about it. Every scene simply failed to get my attention. So I would say "Not worth it." But if Johns is one of your favorite writers, then I guess you would like it.

[Reptisaurus!]

Johns is my least favorite major mainstream comic writer.

By quite a lot, really.

And *I* liked it. (That and the first Hawkman trades.)

So you should definitely buy it.

[Mr. Biggstuff]

I dont want to beat a Dead Horse but it is Fantastic!

[dancj]

How would it appeal to someone who loves his Flash, but found JSA and Hawkman very boring?

[Expletive Deleted]

It's hard to predict someone else's tastes, but . . . it's very similar (somewhat unsurprisingly) to his straight JSA work. A little faster paced, but that's about the extent of the difference.

If you don't like Johns' JSA, I can't imagine you'd like JLA/JSA.

[Shellhead]

I loved those silver age team-ups between JLA and JSA, so I was really looking forward to Virtue & Vice.

The artwork was disappointing, especially for such an expensive format. I found the pencils to be sloppy and sketchy, especially the faces.

The story was okay. There were some nice personal touches with some of the characters early on, but the sheer mass of heroes involved meant that most got only brief exposure in the story. It was good to see Johnny Sorrow again.

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

It's hard to predict someone else's tastes, but . . . it's very similar (somewhat unsurprisingly) to his straight JSA work. A little faster paced, but that's about the extent of the difference.

If you don't like Johns' JSA, I can't imagine you'd like JLA/JSA.

That said, I think Virture and Vice moves a bit faster than Johns' JSA series work, so you might enjoy it more than you think. But, ED is right, there's no accounting for taste. I loved it, but I'm kind of a JSA freak anyway.

[dancj]

If you don't like Johns' JSA, I can't imagine you'd like JLA/JSA.

That's pretty much what I thought - thanks.

I'll still consider it if I ever see it going very cheap

[hotrodimus]

well I really enjoyed the book seeing firestorm, capt atom, zantanna as part of the team.. but to be honest i found the book to be rather expensive. the art is also very good

[Beastfan07]

I found it expensive, but well worth the price IMO.

[west3man]

I love it when the JLA and the JSA got together back in the day. This was not that. Weak art and story for a very high price and low physical product quality. I've seen multiple copies that fell apart.

[Michael P]

There is a softcover version out now, so price isn't as much an issue as it once was.

[Kal-el 100]

I think Virtue and Vice's plot was a good idea i just don't think DC pulled off the other areas of the book i.e. the art

[Brian R]

I bought it, and I dont get how anyone can bash the artowrk, Pacheco at his best if you ask me. Well worth the price of admission, loved the story, and plenty of "cool!" moments for the fanboy in me. :)

[Johnny Sorrow]

Great art, great story - just a great book really.

[dancj]

There is a softcover version out now, so price isn't as much an issue as it once was.

Less of an issue than it was, but DC still charge a lot more for TPBs of OGNs than they do for the collections

[CurryStick]

Yup, highly recommended. Probably one fo the best JLA HCs. Including Earth 2 of course. Both are great reads.

[JeffreyWKramer]

For those who don't like the pace of Johns' JSA, keep in mind that V&V is a self-contained story - it's all there.

I think it's a great read. It contains a lot of the magic of the old JLA/JSA crossovers, cool guest-stars who actually contribute to the story, a really cool and nasty villain team-up and a smart resolution which depends on teamwork. I normally like Pacheco's art anyhow, but it's never been better than in this book.

Buy it.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I dug the hell out of it.

Absolutely BEE-OOO-TEE-FUL art and a darn fine story to boot.

[LtMarvel]

The follow up story is in the newest JSA tpb, Prince of Darkness.

[Kid Seven]

This isn't meant to sound like bashing, but I've never understood how a fan of superhero comics can not like Carlos Pacheco's artwork. It's absolutely perfect! Beautifully rendered people and scenes, dynamic page and panel layout, a grace and flow to it, absolutely great.

I'm looking forward to buying this. I couldn't justify buying the hardcover so I've waited until now.

[Brian R]

This isn't meant to sound like bashing, but I've never understood how a fan of superhero comics can not like Carlos Pacheco's artwork. It's absolutely perfect! Beautifully rendered people and scenes, dynamic page and panel layout, a grace and flow to it, absolutely great.


Totally agree on Pacheco. My only question is, how come in his current S/B arc, Superman looks distinctly different, and in my opinion worse, than in VV?

[Kid Seven]

I've noticed that, and I'm not sure. Maybe there's a 'look' for Superman in this book (a la McGuiness) that Pacheco is trying to keep a little more in line with? That's my only idea.

[Shellhead]

This isn't meant to sound like bashing, but I've never understood how a fan of superhero comics can not like Carlos Pacheco's artwork. It's absolutely perfect! Beautifully rendered people and scenes, dynamic page and panel layout, a grace and flow to it, absolutely great.

The short answer: sometimes Pacheco's faces don't look like faces. Instead, they look like sketchy parodies of faces.

The long answer: I will dig up my copies of Virtue and Vice and the Avengers Forever tpb, and get back to you on that. I have a suspicion that Pacheco looks better with some inkers than other inkers. Because I liked his work on Avengers Forever and didn't like it on Virtue and Vice.

[Expletive Deleted]

I may be wrong about this, but I think he had the same inker (Jesus Merino) for both projects.

[Mr. Jixx]

I thought the guy rocked! I hated his Wildcat, but everyone else kicked butt!

[dancj]

I haven't seen his Virtue and Vice work. In Avengers forever, he semed to be a competent George Perez wannabe, but in Arrowsmith his is work much better - a lot more fluid. If he can keep up that kind of quality, he deserves to be a big name

[JeffreyWKramer]

I haven't seen his Virtue and Vice work. In Avengers forever, he semed to be a competent George Perez wannabe, but in Arrowsmith his is work much better - a lot more fluid. If he can keep up that kind of quality, he deserves to be a big name


I liked his work in AVENGERS FOREVER, but I think there was notable improvement in his sense of anatomy and composition between AF (already good) and V&V (even better).

I liked his art in SUPER/BAT too. I just wish the story had been more to my tastes.

[Kid Seven]

I've enjoyed S/B, not as much as other stories, but I've enjoyed it enough to not let it get in the way of the art.

Wow...that's some hollow praise right there.

[TJ Shoun]

The story is good but the art is absolutely fantastic.

This is even better than Pacheco's work on FF, Avengers Forever, and Superman/Batman.

I'd say that this and Arrowsmith are his best work.

But really - when is Pacheco artwork ever bad? :)

And hey, you get to see Sand drop the entire friggin' Rock of Eternity on top'a Despero's gord. Hell, what fanboy doesn't think that's cool?

This is definitely a fun read but the price is too damn steep for what's essentially about 4 regular comics. $25 is a lot for less than 100 pages of comicbook story, I don't care if it is a hardcover.

The bottom line:

If you can find it on sale, go for it. But I wouldn't pay the full price.

Got mine off MileHighComics.com for cheap. Thank you, Chuck Rozanski. ;)

[Kid Seven]

It IS availabe in regular trade now though, so the price isn't so cheap, and if you go through Amazon.com, even cheaper.

[Smarty Jones]

"This isn't meant to sound like bashing, but I've never understood how a fan of superhero comics can not like Carlos Pacheco's artwork. It's absolutely perfect!"

Something that irritated me about Carlos Pacheco's work on "Virtue and Vice" was his drawing of Wonder Woman's boots, which seemed to be floppy as is they were too big for her.

Anyway, it was not a great read but it was above average. I too didn't get that sense of grandeur as I did about pre-"Crisis" JLA/JSA team-ups. I think a lot of it was because both teams were so massive that it made the book unwieldy. However, I did love seeing Johnny Sorrow and Despero team up.

In summation, it's worth buying but it's hardly what I would call as classic.

[TitoJones]

Maybe it's just me but I would of enjoyed it if all that happened were the two teams just got together and interacted in the watchtower without fighting Despero(who needs to be shown more in the DCU) and Johnny Sorrow.

Of course it wouldn't of been worth the price of the HC, but all the same, it would of been a fanboy dream of mine.

[Shellhead]

Maybe it's just me but I would of enjoyed it if all that happened were the two teams just got together and interacted in the watchtower without fighting Despero(who needs to be shown more in the DCU) and Johnny Sorrow.

Of course it wouldn't of been worth the price of the HC, but all the same, it would of been a fanboy dream of mine.

I don't remember the JSA issue #, but maybe a year after Virtue and Vice, there was a Thanksgiving issue where the JSA and JLA met up again. That time around, they spent almost the entire issue just hanging out and talking. Near the very end, two obscure villains teleport in on top of the dinner table, ruining the food, only to realize that they are now facing over two dozen of the mightiest super-heroes on Earth. We don't even get to see the actual fight, but it must have been mercifully short.

[Forefinger]

Y'all have convinced me to go out and buy the TPB!

[marshal99]

Maybe it's just me but I would of enjoyed it if all that happened were the two teams just got together and interacted in the watchtower without fighting Despero(who needs to be shown more in the DCU) and Johnny Sorrow.

Of course it wouldn't of been worth the price of the HC, but all the same, it would of been a fanboy dream of mine.

As mentioned , the follow-up to Vice and Virtue in JSA have both teams just mostly getting together and interacting which hopefully will be an annual thing. The 2 old time long forgotten villains Warlock of Ys and Kulak the sorcerer that showed up late in the issue to spoilt the thanksgiving dinner were there mainly for comic relief.