Question on 1602...

[Supreme Convoy]

Hey all, I'm a newbie here but a long time fanboy.

Anyways, I asked this on another comic board but I think it might be helpful if I asked on this board too.

While flipping through the amazing 1602 tonight, a question popped up in my head that didn't occur to me while reading this... didn't Neil Gaiman say that 1602 took place in the "real" Marvel Universe?

At first I thought it was Captain America, but he's from the future. Or does the story tie into the regular continuity thanks to the Watcher? I guess since he has access to any possible continuity/reality ever imagined, he can be considered a "regular" character in 616 Marvel.

And what's up with the dinosaurs? A product of the wormhole?

[The Fury]

didn't Neil Gaiman say that 1602 took place in the "real" Marvel Universe?

At first I thought it was Captain America, but he's from the future. Or does the story tie into the regular continuity thanks to the Watcher? I guess since he has access to any possible continuity/reality ever imagined, he can be considered a "regular" character in 616 Marvel.

And what's up with the dinosaurs? A product of the wormhole?
I can't remember what Gaiman said about it, but the Cap was from an alternate future, therefore I could be ours but very unlikely. If it was the 616, Time travel into the future in the MU, I think is a state of that they travel directly to the future of the reality they are in (back in time travel, they jump a reality or more). And as all these character were already established in 1602 and therefore were not created from 1941, it has been pointed out by some that it would be cool if that Cap and Nick arrived in our reality but by my theory that will not occur.

Now, I'm really confused, someone may want to try and make sense out fo what I just said.

And the dinosaurs were a joke I think.

And Welcome to CBR.

[Loki]

I can't remember what Gaiman said about it, but the Cap was from an alternate future, therefore I could be ours but very unlikely. If it was the 616, Time travel into the future in the MU, I think is a state of that they travel directly to the future of the reality they are in (back in time travel, they jump a reality or more). And as all these character were already established in 1602 and therefore were not created from 1941, it has been pointed out by some that it would be cool if that Cap and Nick arrived in our reality but by my theory that will not occur.

Now, I'm really confused, someone may want to try and make sense out fo what I just said.

And the dinosaurs were a joke I think.

And Welcome to CBR.

1602 was set in "our" Marvel universe - the Watcher refers to it as Earth-616, which is the designator for the main Marvel universe. Normally time travel would have caused reality to split - one timeline where Captain America didn't arrive back in 1602AD would have remained 616, while the timeline where Cap did arrive in 1602AD would have become a new reality. However the method of time travel used by Cap caused the timeline of 616 to go off course completely (much as Legion killing Xavier re-wrote 616 into the Age of Apocalypse) - in other words, the future we "know" would be wiped out. At the end of the tale this is averted, and the 1602 AD reality diverged into it's own timeline, while Earth-616's timeline returned to it's proper course.

Apparently in the original plans for the story, the future Cap was intended to be the 616 Cap, but part way through writing the series the powers that be said "no."

[niall mc cann]

Apparently in the original plans for the story, the future Cap was intended to be the 616 Cap, but part way through writing the series the powers that be said "no."

That's odd. It did leave me scratching my head as to why it wasn't regular Cap at the end, but the book was a good read so i didn't sweat it so much...

i wonder why they did that?

For me, i figured the dinosaurs were just a nice, kind of whimsical touch, especially in a book that's all about anachronism. Even in the modern MU, dinosaurs have survived extinction, after all. It's not that big a stretch that more areas of MU earth than the savage land had surviving dinosaurs until relatively later than our own earth.

I was sorry that IM and the Hulk didn't get a look in. They seemed like odd characters to overlook, especially the big green meanie.

[Titanium]

Banner became the Hulk in the end of the story.


I think it'd be a great story if 1602 Cap landed in the present because of Fury and was now mad and had all the secrets of the super-population at his disposal and knowledge of the future. He then proceeds to become the premiere supervillain of the Marvel Universe.

[The Fury]

Banner became the Hulk in the end of the story.


I think it'd be a great story if 1602 Cap landed in the present because of Fury and was now mad and had all the secrets of the super-population at his disposal and knowledge of the future.
Same thing happened with Spider-man, that Peter was not bitten until right near the end.

The whole story was very clever, the fact that Cap ended up back in time caused a 'butterfly' type effect that caused the whole planet to start it's superhuman happenings 350 years early.

By any chance will this earth be called Earth-1602 in the multiverse? ;)

[niall mc cann]

Same thing happened with Spider-man, that Peter was not bitten until right near the end.

Yeah, i had noticed the Hulk's cameo, but a cameo for one of Marvel's premiere stars of that era hardly seemed fair, to me.

I mean, Peter wasn't Spidey, but he was still there, and imo written quite well. I mean, you could certainly recognise pete by the end; a conflicted young man carrying an unfair burden that tears him between competing responsibilities. That's the heart of Spider-man, and it was up there. The Hulk got a one panel look-in at the very end of the book... it just seemed odd to me.

By any chance will this earth be called Earth-1602 in the multiverse? ;)

*shudders* I do hope that debate starts up soon.[/sarcasm]

:D

[Loki]

By any chance will this earth be called Earth-1602 in the multiverse?
*shudders* I do hope that debate starts up soon.[/sarcasm]

:D

No debate needed - it's already been identified as Earth-311 in the FF Encyclopedia. :p

[The Fury]

No debate needed - it's already been identified as Earth-311 in the FF Encyclopedia. :p
Really?

Who gets to decide the Earth Numbers of each reality? I mean there' numerous Exiles earths to number.

EDIT: And there are numerous What if? Earths as well.

[discostu]

Really?

Who gets to decide the Earth Numbers of each reality? I mean there' numerous Exiles earths to number.

EDIT: And there are numerous What if? Earths as well.
the watchers do.

[stealthwise]

There's a ton of stuff in 1602 that doesn't make any sense later on. Part of it is that Gaiman didn't really plan out the series well enough, originally it was supposed to be six issues, ended up being eight, but should have been twelve.

He's stated in a recent interview that he wishes he had had time to go over what he put into it now and do a second draft, because he had a bunch of loose plot threads that he never got to close by the end.

[niall mc cann]

He's stated in a recent interview that he wishes he had had time to go over what he put into it now and do a second draft, because he had a bunch of loose plot threads that he never got to close by the end.

Really the only things that felt unresolved or rushed to me were the inquisition sub-plot and Cap's brief stopover in crazytown. They deserved an extra issue or two to be told properly, I agree.

Having said that, i enjoyed the book a lot. there was a lot of good ideas and great storytelling in it. And i'm saying that as someone who'd been a little down on gaiman before reading it (American Gods hadn't impressed me much, see...).

[anthony!]

There's a ton of stuff in 1602 that doesn't make any sense later on. Part of it is that Gaiman didn't really plan out the series well enough, originally it was supposed to be six issues, ended up being eight, but should have been twelve.

He's stated in a recent interview that he wishes he had had time to go over what he put into it now and do a second draft, because he had a bunch of loose plot threads that he never got to close by the end.


I don't think we've quite seen the last of 1602. Especially if it means Gaiman working for Marvel again.

The good news is that Gaiman seemed to enjoy working on 1602 with Marvel. Hopefully we will see more of him beyond just the "Gaiman Project II".

-A!

[stealthwise]

(American Gods hadn't impressed me much, see...).

What did you dislike about American Gods? It was excellent.

[Reptisaurus!]

Really?

Who gets to decide the Earth Numbers of each reality? I mean there' numerous Exiles earths to number.

EDIT: And there are numerous What if? Earths as well.

I totally just found my dream job.

"Soooo.... Whatdaya do?"

"I organize, sort, and number the different planes of existence."

[Loki]

Really?

Really.

Who gets to decide the Earth Numbers of each reality? I mean there' numerous Exiles earths to number.

EDIT: And there are numerous What if? Earths as well.

Pretty much any world where we've seen a version of the FF is listed in the Encyclopedia, be it What If?s, 1602, Ultimate, Exiles, etc - and in each case, the listing includes the Earth number.

[The Fury]

Pretty much any world where we've seen a version of the FF is listed in the Encyclopedia, be it What If?s, 1602, Ultimate, Exiles, etc - and in each case, the listing includes the Earth number.
Cool, so just out of interest, what is the Earth Number of the Fantastic Five What if? Story, the one where Spider-man is part of the FF. Just becuase the Exiles visited that Earth and Hyperion killed everyone.

Or are those 2 Earths classed as separate from each other?

[niall mc cann]

What did you dislike about American Gods? It was excellent.

I disagree. It was just all right.

Mostly it just felt to me like well-worn ground for gaiman. He'd done similar stuff before much better.

It felt like he was doing a neil gaiman story in a stephen king style, which i figure is great for sales, but not so good for variety and breaking new ground.

I read it, it was a nice page turner; he'd written better before. Hopefully it'll help him build a strong enough fanbase that he'll be able to be a little truer to himself for his next few works.

1602, on the other hand, was a great, quirky take on some of Marvel's a-list that i enjoyed an awful lot, and felt very authentically Gaiman. I really can't imagine another creator who'd have chosen to tell a story like 1602. It was very unusual and new. great stuff.

[Loki]

Cool, so just out of interest, what is the Earth Number of the Fantastic Five What if? Story, the one where Spider-man is part of the FF.

Earth-772

Just becuase the Exiles visited that Earth and Hyperion killed everyone.

Or are those 2 Earths classed as separate from each other?

Don't know if they are meant to be the same reality, or two similar but slightly different ones.

[stealthwise]

I disagree. It was just all right.

Mostly it just felt to me like well-worn ground for gaiman. He'd done similar stuff before much better.

It felt like he was doing a neil gaiman story in a stephen king style, which i figure is great for sales, but not so good for variety and breaking new ground.

I read it, it was a nice page turner; he'd written better before. Hopefully it'll help him build a strong enough fanbase that he'll be able to be a little truer to himself for his next few works.

1602, on the other hand, was a great, quirky take on some of Marvel's a-list that i enjoyed an awful lot, and felt very authentically Gaiman. I really can't imagine another creator who'd have chosen to tell a story like 1602. It was very unusual and new. great stuff.

Wow, this one will have go almost immediately into the "agree to disagree" category, because I felt that Gaiman had taken a number of mythic ideas he had formulated in The Sandman and really solidified them into a grand storyline in American Gods. I love The Sandman, but one gripe that people had about the series was that it was too much of an anthology (and sometime I think that those people missed the point of it altogether, but still...), with American Gods, you got the best of both worlds.

As for 1602, I felt that it was interesting, but poorly paced, with a really really slow start and a rushed finale. It read more like a really good What If? or Elseworlds tale.

[Indigo Al]

Sorry to resurrect, but I just got finished reading 1602 and it was INCREDIBLE. My mind is still reeling.

few points AND SPOILERS:










1) Clea was badass!

2) Dinosaurs - wasn't there some kind of myth about dinos in Roanoke?

3) This is some politically correct whining on my part, but so be it: I wish Cap had thought more of the Indian tribe he joined up with. He became one of them, lived among them. And I just wish, when he was begging Fury to not return to his time, that he would have said "and I can save THEM too (his tribe, and all native american tribes). I can make this the America that should have been"

4) I mean, imagine Cap working very carefully behind the scenes of American history to prevent Native American genocide and slavery? Going from alternate America to alternate America and "fixing" them? Prez, Teen President anyone?

5) In considering 1602 Magneto, I find him the most chilling version I've ever seen. Victim of genocide, genocidal himself. The mere fact that he would have burned Jews and mutants who couldnt pass at the stake just disturbs me.

4) Sister Wanda: I'm in love with a nun! Now why weren't her powers added to the mix when they were doing the time portal thingie?

[Titanium]

Is anyone else really hoping for a 1602 sequel?

There were a few open ends that Gaiman could go back to for a 1603. The Hulk, Doom scarred and pissed, he could even have sentinels in the form of the King's army. Maybe a 1602 Galactus or Appocalypse story.

[Shadow Crawler]

Wasn't there supposed to be a sequel either late this year or early next year? Or was that just rumor?

[Paradox]

Loki gives me the bad news:

Pretty much any world where we've seen a version of the FF is listed in the Encyclopedia, be it What If?s, 1602, Ultimate, Exiles, etc - and in each case, the listing includes the Earth number.

:rolleyes:

Good lord, JUST what we needed. More reasons for insular elitist references by fanboys.

Yuck! I see bigger FAQs in the future for this board.

[niall mc cann]

Is anyone else really hoping for a 1602 sequel?



Very much so, but i'd rather see him tackle the next stage of marvel's evolution; the post-silver age classics of the seventies and eighties, rather than just tell another story with all the same characters.

Strikes me the Hellfire Club would slip perfectly into a potential 1602 sequel (and we already got a glimpse of the pheonix!), and i'd love to see Matt Murdock again, even if he was changing from happy-go-lucky swashbuckler to the more disillusioned Miller-ized hero of the eighties. Maybe we could meet a renaissance Gwen Stacy?

What other important MU events of that era would have to be nodded to? When did the whole celestial madonna thing happen in Avengers?

[jade_nova]

I would love to see a sequel to this story. Maybe some new characters since they are in North America we can see Wolverine and the first Thunderbird. I would like to see them deal with the Hulk. We don't need any Phoenix stories though that thing has been done to death.

[StarsAndGarters]

Is anyone else really hoping for a 1602 sequel?

There were a few open ends that Gaiman could go back to for a 1603. The Hulk, Doom scarred and pissed, he could even have sentinels in the form of the King's army. Maybe a 1602 Galactus or Appocalypse story.I would absolutely love a 1603. I wanna see Peter with powers, the Hulk, more mutantur, the works.