XIII NUDITY samples - judge for yourselves

[XIII]

After the official presentation of the American edition of European Smash-Hit "XIII" at Newsarama (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27393), the publisher's decision of editing the nudity has stirred a huge controversy in the talk-back section of the thread.

It's only fair to show some samples of the nakedness in XIII so you can judge for yourselves:

Scantily clad Major Jones scurryng (Volume 6):
http://www.bdxiii.com/extraits/im6-2.JPG

Felicity Rowland (Volume 16):
http://www.bdxiii.com/divers/analyses/montecristo/Felicity2.jpg

XIII and Jessica Martin in bed (Volume 15):
http://www.bdxiii.com/divers/analyses/chiens/XII-Jessie_motel.JPG

And if you click on the following link you can read the first 20 pages of the 16th volume of XIII in French (don't worry, it's a perfectly legal promotional web-page of a French major bookstore chain):
http://www.fnac.net/operation_montecristo/readBoxPlayer.html

It's made with Flash so I can't post the images here, but you can see nudeness in:

Page 12 - 5th panel: Major Jones coming out of a lake naked in the dark. I suppose this won't be edited at all.

Page 17 - Panels 4, 5 and 6 - Felicity Rowland semi-showing her nipples.

[king mob]

I feel shocked and stunned and outraged but mainly shocked with a little feeling of being disgusted but mainly shocked at such nudity!

How can we protect Americans from depictions of the naked, nubile, silky female form?
How can we not look on in shock at drawings of pert breasts and curvy female hips?

Do these people not know this corrupts proud, open minded , free thinking Americans everywhere?










Yes, this was sarcasm

[The Dosadi Experiment]

Why are Americans such prudes.

Jeez, it's a tit, no reason to bust open a nut about that, I don't hear them complain and censore when it's violence.

[Winslow]

If the publisher would put a label on the cover, like MAX or Vertigo, there would be no need to censor the images.

It's a Publisher's decision - not necessarily an "American" prude problem.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

If the publisher would put a label on the cover, like MAX or Vertigo, there would be no need to censor the images.

It's a Publisher's decision - not necessarily an "American" prude problem.

He does it to cater to the American audience, and the American attitudes that come with that audience. It's most definately a prude problem, as the title is being sold as a best-selling wonder in Europe, if it's such a hit, such a success, then why would there be a need to edit its content?

It's not graphic sex, it's not violence, it's just a nipple.

A nipple, I've seen worse in this month's Conan, graphic violence, decapitation, and other stabbery and killery, but no nipple.

it's basic anatomy, it's not in a context where it's part of strong visual pornography.

I've seen more tits flopping around in X-men, the only difference is that the skin-tight outfits don't show any nipples. Actually the sexual content of X-men, at least in the art, is stronger than in XIII.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

---
At what age do children start to play voilent games? I have a 4 year old. He's been playing violent games since he could walk. Not just playing 'guns' and 'swords', but wrestling and playing 'kung fu' with his cousins. All boys are like that naturally. They know what is real, and what is not. While I wouldn't want to desencitize my kid to *real* violence, and graphic images, the cartoon voilence of most comic books and the specifically XIII isn't something I'm going to worry too much about. A little spatter of 2D blood on a drawing isn't going to scar him for life, or cause him to pick up a knife and stab his sister.

Nudity, even cartoon nudity, does something that causes physical and psycological reactions that a child may not be mature enough to deal with in a healthy way. I'm sure everyone here can think back to when he was a kid, sneaking peeks at one magazine or another, and what kind of reactions he had to those pictures, even when they were just drawings. Those feelings beget curiosities that a child simply isn't mature enough to deal with.
---

No offense, but this is just the biggest crap I've heard. This is twisting relaity to fit the views of one person.

Does this man have his child undress and bathe in complete darkness, with mirrors that only reveal the face. Is the child forbidden from going to the beach? God forbid, he might see a bikini.

The only reasons kids peak in skin-mags is because of the sexuality and taboos that society has placed on those products... and hormones.

[Winslow]

He does it to cater to the American audience, and the American attitudes that come with that audience. It's most definately a prude problem, as the title is being sold as a best-selling wonder in Europe, if it's such a hit, such a success, then why would there be a need to edit its content?

I'm not here to defend American standards for nudity and violence in publication distribution. I don't always agree with them. And so called "indecency laws" can be troublesome.

Since we have such a diverse population, with diverse attitudes towards such things, we DO regulate depictions of violence and nudity with content labels.

As a parent, I appreciate content ratings - that let me know what's inside a video game, or movie, or comic.

If the publisher would simply comply with the regulations regarding content labelling, there would be no need to censor. So in that sense, the publisher has made a decision.

My question isn't why are American's such prudes, but why isn't this publication given a MR rating, so there is no need to alter the images?

Oh and BTW, Americans buy, produce, and sell more porn than any other country. I don't think we're prudes.

[Ed Cunard]

As much as I'd prefer to read an unedited version of XIII (well, it would have to be translated, at least), I can't really fault a company for trying to get it into the hands of as many people as possible. And while I don't agree with many of the publisher's views on society at large, or in relationship to comics, from a business standpoint, he may be right.

XIII has a lot going against it already, in terms of an American comics market. The market doesn't support books in the "green" section of previews like they do from the mainstream. Retailers can be gunshy on comics outside the big four, especially when nudity is involved. Even in a best-case scenario, XIII in the states doesn't have a chance to do European numbers, edited for content or not, because that's not the kind of comics people seem to want in general--there's no spandex, no iconography.

[Winslow]

Good points Ed.

I finally read the linked article. :o

Apparently it's a handful of edited panels in hundreds of pages of storyline, so it does seem to make more sense to edit the panels rather than go with a cover warning label, in order to make distribution as broad as possible.

[dancj]

No offense, but this is just the biggest crap I've heard. This is twisting relaity to fit the views of one person.

Who are you quoting there? That person is excessively paranoid about the power of nipples.

For the people saying "why not slap a mature label on it", the obvious answer would be that the comic is an all ages comic and this would stop children below a certain age from buying it. (I haven't read it, so I don't know how all ages appropriate it is)

Assuming there is nothing overly offensive (and a nipple doesn't count) the ideal scenario would be for the comic to go out with the nipple and without the label, but then we're back to the problem of prudes getting up in arms.

Dan

[Rexamus Grumbo]

I'm not here to defend American standards for nudity and violence in publication distribution. I don't always agree with them. And so called "indecency laws" can be troublesome.

Since we have such a diverse population, with diverse attitudes towards such things, we DO regulate depictions of violence and nudity with content labels.

As a parent, I appreciate content ratings - that let me know what's inside a video game, or movie, or comic.

If the publisher would simply comply with the regulations regarding content labelling, there would be no need to censor. So in that sense, the publisher has made a decision.

My question isn't why are American's such prudes, but why isn't this publication given a MR rating, so there is no need to alter the images?

Oh and BTW, Americans buy, produce, and sell more porn than any other country. I don't think we're prudes.


Actually I remember hearing some where that the more sexually repressed a culture is the more that kind of sub-culture seems to flourish, I don't know if its true or not but if so it would raise some interesting questions.

[djshalope]

titties are awesome

[Adam Crocker]

If the publisher would simply comply with the regulations regarding content labelling, there would be no need to censor. So in that sense, the publisher has made a decision.

There are regulations regarding content labelling as it applies to comics?

[Winslow]

There are regulations regarding content labelling as it applies to comics?

I'll readily admit I'm "reading between the lines" here and don't know what I'm talking about.

But whenever publisher's mention editing comics it is ususally to avoid a content label or to get the wider "distribution."

I'm clueless as to who or what governs or requires the label when it comes to comics.

Edit: Interestingly enough - this week's columns addresses DC's editing of the manga Tenjo Tengue. Dc's explanation is to make the work available "to a wider American audience." I'm assuming they are editing to avoid content labels.

What goes through the mind of an editor that thinks putting a bra on a woman getting brutally raped suddenly makes it acceptable for teens, is beyond me.

[Adam Crocker]

But whenever publisher's mention editing comics it is ususally to avoid a content label or to get the wider "distribution."

I'm clueless as to who or what governs or requires the label when it comes to comics.

Hm, well that pretty much leaves it ambiguous. Since I don't know if there is a particular content labelling law at work here I suppose it could also be the case that the publishers just apply content labels as standard practice to avoid getting in trouble from groups who are big on policing morality in the media.

Edit: Interestingly enough - this week's columns addresses DC's editing of the manga Tenjo Tengue. Dc's explanation is to make the work available "to a wider American audience." I'm assuming they are editing to avoid content labels.

What goes through the mind of an editor that thinks putting a bra on a woman getting brutally raped suddenly makes it acceptable for teens, is beyond me.

Agreed, and thanks for mentioning that as I wanted to comment on the matter in relation to this. I looked at both Rich's samples as well as the second link he provided regarding comparisons made online about the editing (this one provided pictures). The second link including numerous sex scenes, and another rape scene which in the edited version was obscured merely by cropping. Honestly, what is the point of this exercise when the comic is so obvious innudated by such explicit subject matter that it obviously isn't aimed at teens in the first place? XIII on the other hand just has to cover up a small numer of nipples scattered throughout the series.

Then again...Chuck Austen had a villain raping women to death in Action Comics and we had issue #2 of Identity Crisis so I guess I shouldn't exactly be surprised by this.

[Winslow]

Maybe we should start a new thread about DC's manga translation fiasco.

BTW - NBM censored the French comic WAKE. I was surprised 'cause NBM distributes a lot of erotic material. So I asked emailed them and asked what was up with the black bars across the heroine's chest. (http://www.nbmpub.com/fantasysf/wake/pre3b.jpg) NBM replied that they "had" to censor the images in order to get distribution in public libraries. But I'm clueless who or what required the censorship for "wider distribution."

I imagine comics fall under the same guidelines that govern periodicals or magazines regarding sale and distribution. And I'm guessing most of the guidlines surrounding sales and distribution are local and community based.

But it's bizarre that a topless jungle girl* would be deemed inappropriate for teens, but throw a bra on a rape scene and suddenly that's O.K.?

* the nudity in the example of WAKE seemed to be consistent with the artistic intent of connecting the character with nature, and hence I didn't find it gratuitous or titillating.

[Blade X]

I'm not here to defend American standards for nudity and violence in publication distribution. I don't always agree with them. And so called "indecency laws" can be troublesome.

Since we have such a diverse population, with diverse attitudes towards such things, we DO regulate depictions of violence and nudity with content labels.

As a parent, I appreciate content ratings - that let me know what's inside a video game, or movie, or comic.

If the publisher would simply comply with the regulations regarding content labelling, there would be no need to censor. So in that sense, the publisher has made a decision.

My question isn't why are American's such prudes, but why isn't this publication given a MR rating, so there is no need to alter the images?

Oh and BTW, Americans buy, produce, and sell more porn than any other country. I don't think we're prudes.

THANK YOU. I could'nt have said it better myself.

I am sick and tired of people falsely labeling americans as "prudes",or saying how we are more accepting of violence over sex and nudity. Anyone who thinks that americans are prudes hen it comes to nudity and sex, I suggest they check out Cinemax every ftiday at midnight.

OMT, there's a difference between non-bloody action scenes and gory bloody action scenes. In other words, not all action/fight scenes are gory and bloody.

[dancj]

But it's bizarre that a topless jungle girl* would be deemed inappropriate for teens, but throw a bra on a rape scene and suddenly that's O.K.?

Do you know how old that jungle girl is supposed to be? She looked pretty young, which I could understand making people uncomfortable. The rape scene is of course a complete cock-up. Covering up the nipples won't change the offensiveness of the comic one iota

[dancj]

I am sick and tired of people falsely labeling americans as "prudes",or saying how we are more accepting of violence over sex and nudity. Anyone who thinks that americans are prudes hen it comes to nudity and sex, I suggest they check out Cinemax every ftiday at midnight.

In comparison to other countries, America (and to a lesser extend Britain) does get more offended by sex + nudity and less offended by violence than a lot of other countries. Of course the offensive stuff is going to exist in almost all countries, but what children are allowed to see, will vary. I doubt anyone would bat an eyelid in France to see a child reading XIII with boobies intact.

Personally I'd fall somewhere in-between. I think Americans and Brits are overly harsh on sexual content and Europeans are overly harsh on violence.

Dan

[the*shpongelettes]

this discussion should not be centred around if we think that americans are prudish or not. that is a given.

there are several demonstrations of this. how can there be freedom of expression at the same time that things get bleeped or censored? we have recently re-read alan moore's book(?) about writing comics and he has brilliantly exposed the "imagined reader", actually using little lord fountleroy as a model. this fear of offending anyone has forced this really strange form of self-censorship in most cultural artifacts. we are amazed that the religious right has so much to say in terms of controlling art and culture in the united states. wasn't there a big controversy because the endowment of arts had sponsored a so-called pornographic exposition of art? another example is that there is so much effort being spent on prohibiting homossexuals from marriage; why bother?

supposedly, there is a separation of church and state in the US, but the us's current president seems to ignore this by mentioning god all the time, and promoting (funding) religious groups.

it shocks us that rape gets its space in comics while beautiful bodies and love making are censored. it shocks us that kids see gruesome deaths all the time, yet don't see people making love or sex (and we are not equating sex here to orgies or SM stuff, just pure love/sex connections)

what we think that the problem is is that very few north-americans are able to understand how the world sees their behaviour; as a centre-of-the-universe global potency, the usa can rarely put itself in other culture's shoes. so, when they realize that some parts of the world hate them, it comes as shock. not every part believes that american values are the best; if that were the case, the whole situation of the middle east, the conflict over north korea, the chavez-incident, etc. wouldn't come as a surprise.

americans are very well-meaning in their majority, but as the cliché says: the road to hell is paved with good intentions. and also, not every gift is necessarily good.

these are our opinions and we are using this forum to express them.

the shpongelettes
( silvia, rodriga, marlucy)

[Dazzler]

as much as i would LOVE to, i'm not going to buy this. That publisher from that thread has some serious attitude adjustments needed. Furhtermore, I don't like how this artform (the comic) is becoming ALL about MONEY! it's outrageous. yes, it's a business, but lately, all i hear is the sales figues. Most of the interesting stories and ideas are dead before they reach the page because the companies are scared they'll offend someone in the red states and people who've never read or bought the comic will boycott. This isn't about a woman's nipple to me. I don't wank to women, I'm gay. But where does it end? Already a statue of a nude justice has been censored at the Capitol. I mean, for god's sake, a drape was thrown over it like it was gross or something. Art is Art is Art, and therefore should never be watered down for the sake of a few narrow mind. (Kinda the reason i hate Hollywood...making a bunch of lackluster and craptastic movies to satisfy Rev. Bubba-joe-Bob so he won't call a boycott.) *sigh*.

I wouldn't buy it because it was edited out of principle. I don;'t like America's Puritanical censoring of everything that some poor sensitive conservative would have a heart attack over. i'm not a child and I don't need guidance like a child. Which, in my opinion is what the more conservative set needs to do: guide and monitor themselves and their larvae, not push that out on other people. What do these people do, let their children run amok getting their wee little claws on everything they can grab?

And for the record, Americans are sensitive. Why do you think porno is SUCH a big commodity. Because we're taught from birth that sexuality is a dirty thing. That's creates unhealthy attitudes that sex should be kept secret, hence the porno industry booms on the backs on millions of repressed Americans who can't healthily express their sexuality any other way. Don't bring that to the table. Trust me, it won't get you anywhere.

As for Cinemax: you answered it yourself. It's on so late at night, no normal person is going to see it anyway. It's hidden away like it's shameful and wrong. I don't think it should be shown right alongside Barney or anything like that, but really...for every instance you can bring up to show that America doesn't have a gestalt prudish nature, I can bring up two to disprove it.

But of course, we can blow each other's brains out night after night, or really, any time of day. ;)
--Dazz

[dancj]

supposedly, there is a separation of church and state in the US, but the us's current president seems to ignore this by mentioning god all the time, and promoting (funding) religious groups.

I could be wrong here, but I believe that the origional spirit of the "seperation of church and state" was that the state shouldn't be tied to any particular denomination of Christianity - not that it should be seperate from Christianity as a whole.

That said, I think there should be a true seperation of church and state. I wish we had it in Britain

[MartinRedmond]

Ah please, I read most of those comics years ago. I wouldn't even classify that has porn. It's just an odd tit here and there, and it's not mysoginist or anything.

[XIII]

XIII 1st Issue Solicitation - Order it now!
Order Code: APR05 2552
Special launch price: $0.75!

It's here! As a Featured Item in the page 240 of the April issue of PREVIEWS, and also featured online in the Diamond web-page (http://previews.diamondcomics.com/default.asp?t=1&m=1&c=23&s=126&ai=17626):

XIII #1
by J. Van Hamme & W. Vance

http://previews.diamondcomics.com/news_images/17626_39331_1.jpg

The smash sensation of Europe that's printed in over a dozen languages is translated into English. A man without a past wakes up in an unknown place. His only clues to his true identity are his remarkable fighting skills, and a tattoo: XIII. Things get dicey quick as a band of killers finds his trail, and they give pursuit, as well as the civil and military police! It's a chase that goes around the world for a man in search of his past.

SC, 7x10, 32pgs, FC..........$0.75

Beside the solicitation, Diamond web-site is also promoting XIII with an special article in the Splash Page section (http://previews.diamondcomics.com/default.asp?t=1&m=1&c=6&s=34&ai=17738):

Lucky Number XIII
It is one of the biggest and bestselling European properties that's sweeping the world, and it's finally hitting the United States!

It's been described as a James Bond flick with a sharper, more conspiratorial edge. It reminds us of The French Connection. Full of political intrigue and conspiracy subculture, the experienced reader will think he or she is reliving the Kennedy assassination. You feel like you're in the era of the Cold War. Clearly, there's not an ATM machine conveniently around the corner.

Alias Enterprises brings us XIII #1, the first issue of the XIII saga that's sold over 12 million copies in Europe. Translated into English, the story revolves around a man without a past who wakes up in an unknown place with no knowledge of who he is or where he came from. His only clues to his true identity are his remarkable fighting skills, and a mysterious "XIII" tattoo on his chest.

Written by European graphic novelist, J. Van Hamme with stunning covers and interiors by W. Vance, this is sure to be a runaway hit in the States! Check it out in the Comics section!

More info in the XIII message boards:
http://www.dabelbrothers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5038#post5038
http://aliasenterprises.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1416#1416

[Leslie Lee III]

Why are Americans such prudes.

Really, it's a damn shame that this comic can't get published with it's original content intact without suffering financial setbacks. This sort of stuff bothers me more and more each day.

[XIII]

XIII 2nd Issue Solicitation - Order it now!
Order Code: MAY05 2410

PREVIEWS PAGE 234
SPOT:
XIII #2
by J. Van Hamme and W. Vance
The best-selling smash sensation of Europe comes to America. The story from which the hit video game was developed makes it's debut as XIII comes to Alias.This is only the beginning for the mysterious man, for soon he discovers that the civil and military police are looking for him too.
32pgs, FC SRP: $2.99

[XIII]

All the problems of censorship and format of the XIII comic-book edition are solved in the collected edition solicited in the current Previews catalog, available in both hardcover and trade paperback versions, completely unedited and in its original size:

PAGE 214
OCT05 2706 XIII VOL 1 HC SRP: $34.99
OCT05 2707 XIII VOL 1 TP SRP: $19.99

XIII VOLUME 1
by J. Van Hamme & W. Vance
Collecting the first six issues of the best-selling smash European sensation into one giant-sized edition! Over 12 million copies in print in over a dozen languages! Here, translated into English... The story from which the hit video game was developed makes it's debut as a trade only from Alias! A man without a past wakes up in an unknown place. His only clues to his true identity are his remarkable fighting skills, and a tattoo: XIII. Things get dicey quick as a band of killers find his trail and the pursuit begins. But this is only the beginning. Soon he discovers that the civil and military police are looking for him too! The chase begins, and the trail leads our protagonist around the world in the search for his past... Don't miss out on the biggest import of the year, available in Hardcover and Softcover editions.

HC-HC, 9x12, 144pgs, FC..........$34.99
TP-SC, 9x12, 144pgs, FC..........$19.99

Despite the fact that the dimensions given in the Previews catalog are 7x10, like the comic-book version, the real dimensions were divulged in this interview with Alias publisher Mike Miller:
http://www.newsarama.com/Alias/MillerAlias.htm

"XIII is a consistently strong seller, we can't wait to get the trade numbers on that especially since we're printing it in its original 9x12" size and un-censored."

Asked to confirm this, Miller explains:

"They'll be 9x12"

The other size must have been a misprint."

[Doom]

If the publisher would put a label on the cover, like MAX or Vertigo, there would be no need to censor the images.

It's a Publisher's decision - not necessarily an "American" prude problem.

The thing is, XIII is a huge commadity in France. It could be found on sale in nearly any supermarkert or newsagents. Anyone could buy it over there.

So why should it have one label (mature) in one country and not in another?

[dancj]

So why should it have one label (mature) in one country and not in another?

Two reasons (neither that good)

1 - Because the French don't mind children seeing boobies and Americans do.

2 - Because in Europe, there is no perception that comics/graphic novels are for kids. They go by the same rules as novels - which have never felt the need for such warnings. In America, people will assume comics are for kids (even though they make up a small minority of the readership).

Dan

[Calybos]

Basically, we Americans are dysfunctional about sex. We deny and condemn it so much that we become obsessed with it at the same time.

The best comment I've heard about Americans is that "We love sex... that's why we hate it so much."

[markus]

... Since we have such a diverse population, with diverse attitudes towards such things, we DO regulate depictions of violence and nudity with content labels.
As a parent, I appreciate content ratings - that let me know what's inside a video game, or movie, or comic.
If the publisher would simply comply with the regulations regarding content labelling, there would be no need to censor. So in that sense, the publisher has made a decision.
My question isn't why are American's such prudes, but why isn't this publication given a MR rating, so there is no need to alter the images?
... I don't think we're prudes. At the very least we should be able to agree the ratings system was put up and is maintained by prudes (Makes sense in that they're the ones most likely to care enough to get involved).
The system basically says nudity and murder are equally unsuitable for children. And that, frankly, is f#cked up.
Looking over the categories provided on "concerned parents' guide to .." websites, it seems the other big two areas of concern are religion and swearing. The latter is masked or rewritten in most cases anyway, so that shouldn't be a problem. Concerning religion I personally believe people who object to e.g. Zauriel are religious nutjobs, but I also believe their beliefs should nonetheless be respected, so that a 3d (sex/violence/religion) categorization scheme might be best.

Concerning whether Americans are prude, I'd like to remind everyone of Nipplegate. I personally found the tit in question awfully ugly, but we sure where all laughing our collective asses off over here in Europe when it eventually lead to the end of live sports broadcasting in the US. (Sure, lots of Americans did not see it as a problem either, but apparently there were not enough of them to relegate those clamoring for protection from the Jacksonian nipple of doom to the fringe. Where they belong. That's what makes "Americans in general" prudes.)

[The Xenos]

I've been getting the individual issues of XIII from Alias, but I really want to switch to the trades. How were they originally released, 9x12, right? It sure looks like the dimentions of the book were different than the US comic size. I'm wondering if it's worth it for Alias to publish the individual ones at all. Lord knows I did the same thing when Tokyopop stupidly published US comic sized books of the Bebop manga. Then I gave up on it and bought teh colelcted editions in their orignal format. The compnay itself dumped the US comic format and really kicked off the manga boom. I can only hope Alias does too, though European comics have always been a tougher sell and does not have quite as large an audience.

-Xenos

[Dizzy D]

I've been getting the individual issues of XIII from Alias, but I really want to switch to the trades. How were they originally released, 9x12, right?

-Xenos

The originals are 21,7 x 28,7 cm.. (looks up calculator, that would be about 8.5 inch x 11 inch)

[Eliseu Gouveia]

How many volumes have been published to this date?

I have about 6 in here (the first albums) but lost track of it.

[Oracle_0128]

Can we send copies to Iraq? I'm sure that would end the war. Men would be far too busy taking care of.....yeah...anyways....

[Dizzy D]

How many volumes have been published to this date?

I have about 6 in here (the first albums) but lost track of it.

You mean original issues in Europe? I'm on issue 16 and issue 17 just came out in french.

[Denyer]

What goes through the mind of an editor that thinks putting a bra on a woman getting brutally raped suddenly makes it acceptable for teens, is beyond me.Probably the same mentality that makes it fine to show fat being cut from inside a breast on TV but still requires nipples to be blurred, even when peeled away from the body awaiting reattachment. In essence, that nudity constitutes sex but sexual violence doesn't necessarily.

I think there should be a true seperation of church and state. I wish we had it in BritainI think what we've got works quite well. Kids study other religions in school, and the more religions you're exposed to the more likely you are to arrive at the conclusion they can't all be right in ways they say they are. And proceed to viewing them as interesting stories written with an agenda.

[DOOM2099]

Crap crap crap... It's all crap. What's wrong with boobieBoobies are NORMAL.

Shooting people in the face with a cannon, that's not normal. But I can draw it a hundred times and never get a funny look.

[malephoenix]

It's weird to me; postmodernism is one of the most prominent worldviews, stating basically "You can believe/do whatever you want/whatever feels good." But the most "open-minded" people don't want us "closed-minded prudes" to want to have less nudity/violence/cursing, etc. in media at large.

I mean, if you want actual studies about pornography's horrible effects, I can provide those studies. But seriously; WHO cares about studies when everyone's got personal opinions to proclaim?

Bottom line; for those that want to subject themselves to a lot of that stuff, that's cool; it's not hard to find. But for those of us who don't want it around our children or even - *gasp* - we don't want it around our own selves, let us have that ability to "believe/do whatever..." without proclaiming how superior and great you are or saying insulting things to/about us who don't want to deal with pornography.

[ComicalReader]

What Europeans and others get so excited about, is the blatant hypocrisy in American values:
On the one hand, it's okay to shoot, kill and torture people, but just ONE tiny, tiny nipple and Americans squawk about immorality! That is warped and sick.

American society has truly now openly become a deformed, distorted version of their famous '60s-past: Make WAR, not LOVE.

Torture is an integral part of XIII, killings and shootings are seamlessly fused with everyday American live, yet the comic book industry has developed "Nipple Stickers"?? Very, very odd indeed.

Every single human being has sucked on his or hers mothers nipples, Every single human being HAS nipples. And while the neocons dream that this is so, and would bio-engineer it if they could, people aren't born with guns sown into their hands. Yet.

What's more, the hypocrisy doesn't stop there. David Vitter, a RepubliKKKan senator campaigning on a Family Values ticket, has been caught redhanded last year, going to prostitutes. But the overal american reaction? Lukewarm, no great indignation.
So, cheating on his wife AND paying for sex AND going to prostitutes, a crime in the usa are OKAY, but just ONE tiny nipple in a magazine, and the publisher feels the need for CENSORSHIP? Gimme a FAT effing break here. Just as long Vitter's a gun supporting republiKKKan, all is okay ....

[The Xenos]

Um.. I'm not a big fan of the right, very liberal when it comes to censorship myself. Hell, I basically agree with you.

Yet when anyone who spells Republican with three Ks needs to grow up before their argument comes across as valid. Really, you're not helping yourself with such immature name calling. You're being just as immature as these idiots who freak out over the terrible horrible blasphemous sight of the female nipple.

Also, let's not forget Democrats like Hillary jump on the family values bandwagon too. Let's not forget that GTA Hot Coffee bullcrap. With Democrats like her, who needs Republicans.

[dancj]

What Europeans and others get so excited about, is the blatant hypocrisy in American values:
On the one hand, it's okay to shoot, kill and torture people, but just ONE tiny, tiny nipple and Americans squawk about immorality! That is warped and sick.
It is warped and sick, but there's nothing hypocritical about that.

[FaithfulMonkeyButler]

I, for one, am certainly glad you resurrected a two year old thread to tell us how you feel about the US. I may have lived my whole life unaware that Americans are all bloodthirsty prudes if not for your intervention.

[ComicalReader]

It is warped and sick, but there's nothing hypocritical about that.
Even if that was so, which I doubt, how is that better? Or a defense or mitigation, in anyway?

Besides, it IS hypocritical. Try to look that word up in a dictionary. You can't claim the high road if you advocate torture and senseless killing. 12 year olds seeing tits and nipples will somehow deprave them more than them seeing people getting shot and tortured? It's like the DEFINITION of hypocrisy.

I, for one, am certainly glad you resurrected a two year old thread to tell us how you feel about the US. I may have lived my whole life unaware that Americans are all bloodthirsty prudes if not for your intervention.
Don't mention it, I'm glad to be of service. It is well known that besides being bloodthirsty prudes, "US americans" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WALIARHHLII) are also quite superficial, as well as stupid. Especially for you, the subs. :)

[dogzilla]

It's like the DEFINITION of hypocrisy.
Isn't the definition of hypocrisy that you say you believe in one thing and then do the other?

People who freak out about sexual imagery but not violent imagery may have their moral values mixed up, in your opinion, but if those are the values they actually believe in then they're not being hypocrites...

[The Xenos]

It's like the DEFINITION of hypocrisy.
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/1617/lebowskiopinionyg3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Don't mention it, I'm glad to be of service. It is well known that besides being bloodthirsty prudes, "US americans" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WALIARHHLII) are also quite superficial, as well as stupid. Especially for you, the subs. :)

Jesus Tittyfucking Christ. (There, is that non-prudish enough for you.) Can you be any more the cliche American bashing Eurotrash? I could swear you're laying it on thick to be a troll, but I'm sure there are close minded anti-American people like you out there. Talk about hypocrisy. Look in a mirror first, Mr. Pot, and see how black you are.

[ComicalReader]

Isn't the definition of hypocrisy that you say you believe in one thing and then do the other?

It's hypocritical because they say they are moral but they propagate immoral things like guns, violence on TV and torture.

And there's no way you can call torture moral, you can't inflict that much predominantly mental damage on a person, for such a uncertain result.

And if you think guns are moral, lets give preteens big knives, and see how much of them make it to high school.

And again, how does them not being hypocrites make it in any better?

[ComicalReader]

Jesus Tittyfucking Christ. (There, is that non-prudish enough for you.........blah blah ......... you are.

Well, boo fucking hoo!!

[Generic Eric]

Well, boo fucking hoo!!

Wow. Who is this masked man trying to school us 'stupid' Americans.:rolleyes:

[Elegance Liberty]

Jesus Tittyfucking Christ. (There, is that non-prudish enough for you.) Can you be any more the cliche American bashing Eurotrash? I could swear you're laying it on thick to be a troll, but I'm sure there are close minded anti-American people like you out there. Talk about hypocrisy. Look in a mirror first, Mr. Pot, and see how black you are.

I just have one thing to say about this:

OWNED.

[Crowforge]

Europeans are always going on about understanding the cultures of the world, unless it's Americans, then we just have to change the way we think.

[dogzilla]

If generalising about Americans is bad, I don't see why doing the same to Europeans is any better :|

[dancj]

Even if that was so, which I doubt, how is that better? Or a defense or mitigation, in anyway?
It isn't. Even when I agree with someone's basic point of view (and I do agree with yours) I like the keep the arguments accurate.
It's hypocritical because they say they are moral but they propagate immoral things like guns, violence on TV and torture.

And there's no way you can call torture moral, you can't inflict that much predominantly mental damage on a person, for such a uncertain result.
"moral" is a very subjective term. If you really believe that torture is fine and boobs are terrible corrupters then there really is nothing hypocritical about torturing people and then going on a crusade about the evil of nipples.

And again, how does them not being hypocrites make it in any better?
It doesn't.

[Jason J]

Europeans are always going on about understanding the cultures of the world, unless it's Americans, then we just have to change the way we think.


Damn those nasty Europeans and there wily anti American ways! What say you an me go hunt some down after I get dun with yur moma an we lock up the trailer... dumbfuck...

People are people all over the world, some are obnoxious assholes and some are not, some are conservative and others liberal, sweeping generalizations simply show your ignorance and lack of rational thought. There are a lot of stupid Americans, but there are large number of stupid Europeans as well, basically we are surrounded by stupid people, the nationality has nothing really to do with it.


And ComicalReader... did you really say "boofuckingwho"? What are you ten? What sort of response was that meant to be, because weak isn't the word... There was a lot you could have been working with but you blew it, I mean I personally would have questioned the whole tittyfucking Jesus thing I mean he was a guy.... and a skinny one (otherwise the fucking cross would have fallen down and that book would have been a lot shorter) so how is that possible, I have been to church and I never noticed the son of god with moobies...

Sadly like a teenage boy you had the target in your sights and blew your load way to soon, on what has to be in the top ten all time lamest responses seen to date.... Shit I would have had more respect for "I know you are but what am I" Grow up, and come back when you can play with the bigger boys...

I actually find it hard to believe I have even graced this thread with a response, but when so many idiots appear in one place... well it's just to easy.

For those of you with a short attention span let me make it plane, if you are an asshole then you are an asshole, where your from has nothing to do with it, so leave that "my country is better than yours" shit in your pants it just make you ALL look stupid.

Hear endith the lesson... don't make me come back in hear.

[dogzilla]

My tip would be to learn to spell before you start calling people idiots

[Crowforge]

It is funny that he misspelled that, what an asshole.

[The Xenos]

By the way, the whole "Jesus Tittyfucking Christ" line was ripped off of Team America:World Police. Just saw it again recently. Plus this whole thread reminded me of it and the whole "America.. FUCK YEAH." joke attitude seems to fit.

[ComicalReader]

Team America World Police? Isn't that the film where the makers of South Park bash disenfranchised and poor people, just as much as powerful corporations and rich people "because that was equal treatment" ? The epitomy of cynicism, if you ask me.

[Libaax]

Did they ever realese XIII regulary ?

I read scanlated version of first vol years ago and was crushed when i saw there isnt an english version of it.

[SKETCHSANCHEZ]

This is a shame, I remember really enjoying the videogame and the fact that it ended on a cliffhanger had me really wanting to read the comic-but if its edited/censored, I dont think I'll be buying this.

[The Xenos]

Wow. ComicalReader dug this up just to.. what? Complain that the comedy film Team America bashes "disenfranchised and poor people"? What? Wow. Bit thick there? For a movie with so many dick and fart jokes, I'm amazed how people don't get the subtle satire in it. If anything it points out that the disenfranchised and poor people 'Team America' goes in to help usually get screwed over and blown up. Also, this usually happens to brown people. And French. Well, we can hope it happens to the French like it did in the movie. Screw that Eiffel tower. :wink:

And on that note, going back to French comics. Well, actually, looking it up, it's a Belgian comic. I'd be very interested to see XII finally published in the US. Yet European comics sell for crap. As much as I like them, it's rather annoying that the only foreign comics that seem to get any sales are Japanese manga. They're about half the price, take up half the shelf space, and their readers are maybe half my age. Even mature manga, like mature US comics and European comics, have not had a strong market. Titles like Monster or Tezuka's dramatic works haven't had the burst of sales younger aimed manga have had.