Bendis rips Johnston a new one.

[SoulOnIce]

http://www.newsarama.com/Qrama/Qrama7.htm


B- We're basically only talking about Rich. Who else is there? Rich always declares some higher purpose to what he does which is basically just raping other people’s careers, and there is no higher calling. He gets paid by the hit, he does it for money. I know how much because CBR offered me my own column year’s back. He only gets hits worth a paycheck if he really f#@$% someone over that people are interested in. He always declares some made up morality to what he does, like comic’s needs him. I bet we don’t. But hey, this is how he wants to make a living, good for him. He appears way too smart to do what he does. It’s hilarious that he's probably the best online journalist but he uses his powers for evil.

[RichJohnston]

http://www.newsarama.com/Qrama/Qrama7.htm


B- We're basically only talking about Rich. Who else is there? Rich always declares some higher purpose to what he does which is basically just raping other people’s careers, and there is no higher calling. He gets paid by the hit, he does it for money. I know how much because CBR offered me my own column year’s back. He only gets hits worth a paycheck if he really f#@$% someone over that people are interested in. He always declares some made up morality to what he does, like comic’s needs him. I bet we don’t. But hey, this is how he wants to make a living, good for him. He appears way too smart to do what he does. It’s hilarious that he's probably the best online journalist but he uses his powers for evil.

Feel free to add my replies contradicting this.

[mckracken]

"but he uses his powers for evil"

So youre like a real-life villain eh? Got a costume too? :D

[AlanOnymous]

They're just jealous because your work is a more ((consistently)) enjoyable read than theirs.

[Dave Cote]

I would really like to think that the EIC of the number one comic publisher would have better things to do than go online and bash people.Say like finish Daredevil Father?I have never liked or disliked Joe Q but after reading his self serving tripe at Newsarama I don't have a lot of respect for him.It seemed like he doesn't take his customers all that seriously and didn't asnwer any real questions in part one.I realize we internet posters can be a negative group a large portion of the time but it seems like he's okay with dismissing any criticism because he knows what he's talking about and we don't.

[outlander78]

I like Rich's writing far more than Bendis'. Rich appears to understand that spoken language and written language aren't meant to be identical in content. Also, he's funny and entertaining. As to morality - outside of the big two, a lot of creators have been screwed (for lack of a better word), and it's important to shine a light on that. Other than Rich, no one seems to do that.

Out of curiosity, who has Rich damaged with his column? I've been reading it for years, and can't think of a single person damaged, though many have had their work hyped.

edit: Joe has time to write a week's worth of Newsarama content but lacks the time to complete his comics, or to encourage Smith and others to do so with theirs. With him as an example, it's a wonder anyone at Marvel does anything on time.

[Charles RB]

Did Quesceda just wonk because comic journalists & rumour columns report on upcoming comic launches as soon as they hear about them instead of when he'd like? Yeesh, what a whiner. It's extra hype and you didn't have to pay anyone for it! It gets people interested!

And Rich "uses his powers for evil"? Sure, if you want to label him reporting on financial problems of companies like CrossGen and Dreamwave evil- wait, no, that's a legitimate news topic.

[meethraa]

Feel free to add my replies contradicting this.
I'd like to read them but I can't find it anywhere. Care to link?

[Expletive Deleted]

I'd like to read them but I can't find it anywhere. Care to link?In the "Discuss This Article" link at the bottom of the page.

Or here (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27228).

[SoulOnIce]

Rich's reply:

Evening.

Lying In The Gutters gets readership well in multiple of 10K...

" I mean imagine you’ve spent all this money to market, take out ads and prepare for the launch of a major publishing initiative only to have one of these rumor jockeys break the news. It’s literally that they’re making their money, getting their hits from stealing from us. "

Marketing is not a one way street. It's not a monologue. it's a dialogue, it's a two way street. Lying In The Gutters, blogs, columns, messageboards is the logical conclusion of No Logo economics. If you engage in marketing, you accept the costs of the marketing. They're not just measured by media spend.

And your analogy is wrong. I don't steal. I'm a fence.

"Rich always declares some higher purpose to what he does"

Lying In The Gutters is the equivalent of rumour columns in all media in all professional and respected industries.

"He gets paid by the hit, he does it for money. I know how much because CBR offered me my own column year’s back. He only gets hits worth a paycheck if he really f#@$% someone over that people are interested in."

Not true. Lying In The Gutters has a sliding scale of payments, depending on hits per week. For the first few months, it scored on the mid-level. Then it went over the top plateau for payments and hasn't dipped under since.

"He always declares some made up morality to what he does, like comic’s needs him. I bet we don’t."

Comics don't need Marvel, Quesada or Bendis either, they'll still exist. The comics industry doesn't need LITG. But for some CrossGen or Dreamwave employees, it's been bloody handy.

"But hey, this is how he wants to make a living, good for him."

I work in advertising.

"It’s hilarious that he's probably the best online journalist but he uses his powers for evil."

This week, I was given an online address for the entire files for Flight Volume 2 from Image. Would have made a great story, but could have sunk the book. I told Image about it, they plugged the gap.

I use less than 10% of what I receive. And when Joe and Brian have asked I not run a story, I've complied each time.

"For me, I really only get %^$##@ off about story spoilers which Rich never marks."

Happened once, with Hawkeye's death which at the time I wasn't sure about. Which was also passed by Marvel employees before publication without comment (and when there's a story they don't want me to run, or they have comments on, believe me, I get comments). But since then I've marked the column as having spoilers or used whited out text.

"And I know he does it on purpose because he worships Millar"

I like Millar. I like Brian more. I like Joe even more.

"You’re so right there, Rich is an unabashed sell out and would never comment on Marvel again if it meant getting comic’s writing work."

I've made it clear, if I ever did work for a publishing company, I'd give them the option to discontinue the column for the period of publication, to offset conflict of interests. Working for Avatar, I gave William Christensen that option. He declined, figuring the column might give the project and indeed Avatar a boost.

"Ah, look, we’ve made his day by spending a couple of paragraphs on him."

Well, it's end of the day. Anyone who wants to follow this up, I'll be in Toi On Sunset from 7pm tomorrow.

Joe, Brian, I'm enjoying the comics. I look forward to many more.

Especially Machine Teen. Cheerie-bye!

[meethraa]

In the "Discuss This Article" link at the bottom of the page.

Or here (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27228).
Thanks!

10

[Mark Waid]

Out of curiosity, who has Rich damaged with his column? I've been reading it for years, and can't think of a single person damaged, though many have had their work hyped.

Well, let's take this week's column as an example, though I will now say nothing I could not have said a half-dozen times before.

Professional coward and succubus Rich Johnson spends, oh, let's say twenty seconds typing up a bullshit rumor he overheard about some project I'm connected with. Specifically this week, he decides to claim that my new series is losing its artist with issue two.

Remember, in all likelihood, it takes Rich less time to type those words than it's taken you to read this far in this post. That's an important part of how Rich damages people. Less time because, God knows, he certainly doesn't bother to try to validate or corroborate this announcement in any way. No one even remotely connected with this project, for example, heard anything FROM Rich QUESTIONING this rumor. He just ran it. And that's okay, apparently, because after all, he just reports what he hears, right? Investigation is for actual journalists, or at the very least for genuinely responsible people rather than total lowlifes who seek out a smarmy career doing what we all do with some level of shame from time to time but what every single one of us learned as early as childhood was an act we should never take pride in: spreading gossip.

So, Monday. Rich takes a few seconds to "report" a bullshit rumor that isn't even remotely true--but is potentially damaging to my livelihood and to the livelihoods of everyone connected with the project. Can I take the financial hit? Yeah, but you don't know that. Marc? Probably, but that's not my judgment to make. The inker, colorist and letterer of the book, all of whom will be affected if orders drop because retailers are left to believe that Marc has left the book? If your answer is "yes," by all means, feel free to phone 'em up and tell them that you think so. I'm sure they'll get a laugh out of it.

Irresponsible? Oh, God, yes. But it's out there regardless because Rich shoots first and asks questions later. (And by "later," I generally mean "only after someone actually calls him on his lies.") Twenty seconds of typing, bam, done. Rumor spread.

Then, for the REST OF MONDAY FUCKING MORNING, from the moment I AWAKEN, I have to spend literally HOURS fielding e-mails and phone calls squashing this rumor immediately or risk having it do damage to a project I both enjoy and which helps keep food on the plates of people who depend on me. Marc has to do the same. As does Jim McLauchlin, the publisher, who already had a million plates to juggle that morning and suddenly has a million and one. As does Annie Pham, the lovely Top Cow marketing woman who I'm confident is far more overworked than fucking Rich Johnson and really didn't deserve to get hit in the face with a frying pan first thing Monday morning.

So guess what I don't get done yesterday? Script pages for my Legion artist. Why? Because I'M busy setting the record straight because Rich is at best...at BEST...being careless and thoughtless. Which means that Legion is running one day later. Which means the Legion artist may be unemployed for one day next week whether he can afford to be or not. Likewise the inker. Likewise the colorist. And by the way, Marc, how IS issue two coming? What's that? You're NOT drawing right now? Why not? Oh, because you're busy reassuring FANS AND RETAILERS. Bam, bam, bam. Watch how the dominoes fall. Who does Rich hurt when he pulls shit like this? Start counting.

And worst of all, next week, Rich will do it to someone else. He'll report, without any fact to back it up, that so-and-so's book is getting reassigned, casting aspersions on his professionalism or his ability--or that Artist X is a troublemaker because he said something disparaging about his employer, which would be a bad thing to do had it actually happened--or that Freelancer Y is the reason something's late when, in fact, Rich hasn't the first clue. It will take him less than a minute to open any given barn door, but it will take everyone else's day to gather the horses and put them back inside. And don't lie to yourself; he won't dredge this shit up because he's somehow a noble and gallant crusader for justice. He'll do it because every time Rich's column gets another hit, the cash register goes "ding" again. Meanwhile, across the ocean from Rich, some very nervous father of three, already staring down a long assignment with a short deadline, isn't able to voucher for the time he's spending on the phone with his editor trying to find out why he's received all these troubling e-mails from fans and websites claiming grimly but with concern for his welfare that CBR has it on "good authority" that the series he's been pencilling for the last four months is about to be cancelled because its star is actually the super-secret killer in IDENTITY WARS and, gee, they hope he lands on his feet.

Rich hurts people, plain and simple. If he didn't, there wouldn't be a line around the block of otherwise kind and gentle comics creators who would eagerly beat him to death for a dollar and give you change back. When he prints rumors that have absolutely no foundation, as he does all too frequently, it is the wrong thing to do, and no rational person can argue against that. His inexcusable behavior serves no one but him, yet it often visits anxiety and suffering on other people solely in the name of profit and self-glorification. It is indefensible.

[comicchique]

Beautiful, Mark. Beautiful.

Mark, I love you. Marry me. Oh shoot. I can't unless I'm in Utah.

This little twit upset the peace and tranquility in our households, and that I find heinous...I had the misfortune to be home yesterday morning and got to listen to my husband on the phone with this Johnston fellow...you wouldn't like Jim when he gets upset, you wouldn't want to get him angry (wasn't that The Hulk?). The only thing I'm happy about is that the outrage was not directed at me (for a change). Not a happy morning, for all parties involved. :mad:

What I want to know is...who is this source? Probably someone not even remotely involved in T.C., or yours, or Marc's, and certainly not Jim's life. So how can it even be credible, and why post it if you know it's not accurate. :confused:

Anyway, it seems you strive to do the best you can in this shrinking industry, try to be more creative as a wordsmith and an artist. Seems as if some people want to be obstructionists, thriving on the chaos. Throwing wrenches in the works serves no useful purpose; the voyeuristic pleasure of watching the heads spin, perhaps is enough, though. Dunno. I'm not one of them.

Anyway, Mark, great job bringing human cost to the table.

Try not to give the little creep any more time and energy than he's already garnered. At least, until he posts his next inaccuracy.

MWAH!

[outlander78]

Thanks for explaining, Mark - now I understand a little of the frustration various people in the industry have shown. I didn't realize how little work went into checking these reports. For what it is worth, I hope your projects are not damaged and that things go smoothly from here on.

[intmd8r]

Mark,

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/clap.gif

[dancj]

Strange - A smiley with shaving foam moving around on its face.

(I know what it really is, but only cos I looked at the properties of the image to find out what it's called)

[RichJohnston]

Oh, let's say twenty seconds typing up a bullshit rumor he overheard about some project I'm connected with.

Just to correct Mark, spent quite a while researching and writing a piece, and e-mailed Top Cow for comments. None was forthcoming before print. When it became a problem after print, the piece was retracted immediately and a followup prepared.

Ever Marvel rumour gets run past Marvel first. Every DC rumour gets run past DC first. Every Devil's Due... well you get the picture. And respond they do. Sometimes to ask me to withdraw a story - which I do. Sometimes to correct someone's name or position, which I do. Sometimes to provide context which changes the article. Same last week, same next week.

Rich Johnston
Los Angeles

[RichJohnston]

Thanks for explaining, Mark - now I understand a little of the frustration various people in the industry have shown. I didn't realize how little work went into checking these reports. For what it is worth, I hope your projects are not damaged and that things go smoothly from here on.

The reason you didn't realise is that it's not true.

[RichJohnston]

What I want to know is...who is this source? Probably someone not even remotely involved in T.C., or yours, or Marc's, and certainly not Jim's life. So how can it even be credible, and why post it if you know it's not accurate. :confused:

It was TC.

[Mark Waid]

Yeah? Tell them who, of all the people involved with this project AT Top Cow you could have chosen to talk to, you "ran this by," Rich. And, better, when.

I already know the answers. I just think they're illuminating and think you should share.

[DBHughes]

What I find interesting is the statement being made here about the effect of internet readership. Marvel, in particular, has gone to great lengths to state how little effect internet opinions have on the comic industry because the internet readership is such a small part of the greater consumer whole. Mr. Waid conversely appears to be noting here that the internet is a butterfly that creates hurricanes in the comic industry.

I do not mean to jump into a fight here; but I do have a passing interest in which opinion of the internet is more accurate. Over the years, many professionals have gone to some lengths to tell us how our opinions do not matter; but Mr. Waid may have just illuminated a piece of the truth in his response.

[the Monitor]

What I find interesting is the statement being made here about the effect of internet readership. Marvel, in particular, has gone to great lengths to state how little effect internet opinions have on the comic industry because the internet readership is such a small part of the greater consumer whole. Mr. Waid conversely appears to be noting here that the internet is a butterfly that creates hurricanes in the comic industry.

I do not mean to jump into a fight here; but I do have a passing interest in which opinion of the internet is more accurate. Over the years, many professionals have gone to some lengths to tell us how our opinions do not matter; but Mr. Waid may have just illuminated a piece of the truth in his response.


That's an interesting reading of what he said. Mine would be more that unsubstantiated rumors stir up enough dischord with retailers and a few others to cause problems in the day to day production of books and operation of a publishing company. Not so much that the rumors produce some vast wave of unified opinion that damages the book.

Now the vast wave of knowledge that comes with some spoilers can certainly be detrimental to a book; but that's not the same as an opinion.

[DBHughes]

That's an interesting reading of what he said. Mine would be more that unsubstantiated rumors stir up enough dischord with retailers and a few others to cause problems in the day to day production of books and operation of a publishing company. Not so much that the rumors produce some vast wave of unified opinion that damages the book.

Now the vast wave of knowledge that comes with some spoilers can certainly be detrimental to a book; but that's not the same as an opinion.

And what is an unsubstantiated rumor posted on the internet? By definition it is not a fact; it's instead someone's opinion about something whether truthful or not (i.e. rumor). We are continually told how these internet opinions do not matter; how the industry pays them no attention. However, Mr. Waid seems to argue these opinions are a continuous thorn in the side of comics production. Mr. Waid noted how much time he spent trying to quash one of the latest opinions; how those efforts led to production delays. Shouldn't the "important" people in comics know better than to believe an internet opinion? That's what the industry has told us for years; but now it seems that the truth is somewhere closer to internet opinions having a more significant effect.

The bottom line - professionals like Mark Waid give Rich Johnston power. It is one of the oldest rules of politics; an opinion is not a fact until the person in power acknowledges it. Mr. Waid's post in this thread just acknowledged that Rich Johnston does indeed have significant power over the operation of the comics industry. And guess what? That's why the "important" people of comics continue to believe Rich Johnston's column; professionals like Mark Waid are acknowledging that "important" people pay attention to Rich. If Rich's comments were so fallacious and unimportant, then Mr. Waid and so many others wouldn't feel the need to spend so much time on damage control. After all...how many people really bother to fight fires that don't exist? By responding, Mr. Waid comes off as someone reactively spinning the truth even if that is actually not the case.

The best course of action for people like Mr. Waid would be to keep their mouth shut with concern to Rich Johnston. Let events play as they will in the comic industry; but people will keep paying attention to Rich as long as professionals like Mark Waid keep paying attention to Rich too.

[CaptMagellan]

I think the difference isn't that Pros are giving attention to Rich. The main difference between Rich and the rest of us yahoos is that instead of just posting his stuff on a message board he has an official weekly column, at a respected comic book news site with his byline on it.

If CBR endoreses Rich's rumors by endorsing and publishing his column that gives it a faux-respectiblity the rest of us don't have.

Kinda like the difference between an article in a newspaper and the letters to the editor section.

[devildinosaur]

The best course of action for people like Mr. Waid would be to keep their mouth shut with concern to Rich Johnston. Let events play as they will in the comic industry; but people will keep paying attention to Rich as long as professionals like Mark Waid keep paying attention to Rich too.Wouldn't you want to address a rumor if that rumor caused you to stop working because you had to respond to folks that were concerned for your welfare? I certainly would. I'm sure Mr. Waid was upset because of the disruptions to his life and daily schedule.

[DBHughes]

I think the difference isn't that Pros are giving attention to Rich. The main difference between Rich and the rest of us yahoos is that instead of just posting his stuff on a message board he has an official weekly column, at a respected comic book news site with his byline on it.

If CBR endoreses Rich's rumors by endorsing and publishing his column that gives it a faux-respectiblity the rest of us don't have.

And who gives CBR this respect? I never cease to be amazed the lengths people will take to shirk responsibility. No one forces professionals to do interviews at CBR; no one is forced to buy ads on CBR; no one is forced to read CBR; and CBR is certainly not the only (or even best) game in comics news.

Who gives CBR this much vaunted respect? Is this yet another fine example of "It's just always been that way"?

My entire point with my responses is that these allegedly frustrated professionals do nothing of actual merit to fight the problem of Rich Johnston. Instead, they occasionally pop up on message boards out of frustration and only end up giving Rich more power. I know that most of you responding would probably pat Mr. Waid on the back no matter what he did; but you are doing him a disservice in this instance. Mr. Waid needs to stop talking about the problem and instead actually *do* something about the problem. The place to start would be with Rich's financier - CBR.

[comicchique]

By responding, Mr. Waid comes off as someone reactively spinning the truth even if that is actually not the case.

The best course of action for people like Mr. Waid would be to keep their mouth shut with concern to Rich Johnston. Let events play as they will in the comic industry; but people will keep paying attention to Rich as long as professionals like Mark Waid keep paying attention to Rich too.

He's not entitled to react, when his name is on the product under discussion? How would you react to a loudmouth in the bar, seated next to you, spouting crap about your work?

WHATever. Mark can respond as he chooses. He chose to respond and explain to someone what it cost people in terms of time and energy. Did you not read it?

Mark's POINT was not that he paid this man heed, but that he was forced to, by people around him, to stop working for x amoutn of time and dispel a rumour!!! Mark didn't choose to give anyone "power"; concerned people calling him regarding the post drew him deeper into that circle. I bet long distance carriers make a small fortune off just this type of situation.

[comicchique]

My entire point with my responses is that these allegedly frustrated professionals do nothing of actual merit to fight the problem of Rich Johnston. Instead, they occasionally pop up on message boards out of frustration and only end up giving Rich more power. I know that most of you responding would probably pat Mr. Waid on the back no matter what he did; but you are doing him a disservice in this instance. Mr. Waid needs to stop talking about the problem and instead actually *do* something about the problem. The place to start would be with Rich's financier - CBR.

It seems that you are assuming that he hasn't. You don't know what steps he has taken prior to and after. Why don't you ASK him.

[comicchique]

It was TC.

If I respond, I'm a dead woman walking.

[DBHughes]

He's not entitled to react, when his name is on the product under discussion?

Mark Waid is entitled to do whatever he wants. That does not mean his actions are smart.

How would you react to a loudmouth in the bar, seated next to you, spouting crap about your work?

I would just blow it off or get up and leave. The alternative could lead to a bar fight that would land everyone in jail. Both actions lead to the same result in opinion (i.e. no one's opinion changes); but by paying it no attention, you at least do not end up in jail with a criminal record. Once again, you can do whatever you want in this world; but your ability to do it does not mean it is the smart thing to do. I'm sure that some would even label my words in this thread as not wise; but I am not seeking to cause harm. I just have an opinion that is apparently not popular with people who seem to rush to judgment.

Mark's POINT was not that he paid this man heed, but that he was forced to, by people around him, to stop working for x amoutn of time and dispel a rumour!!! Mark didn't choose to give anyone "power"; concerned people calling him regarding the post drew him deeper into that circle. I bet long distance carriers make a small fortune off just this type of situation.

Again, why did these people believe the story and run to Mark? Search for the cure; stop fighting the symptoms.

[DBHughes]

It seems that you are assuming that he hasn't. You don't know what steps he has taken prior to and after. Why don't you ASK him.

I didn't know I needed his permission to voice my views. My comments are only meant to help Mr. Waid and other professionals suffering in this situation. If they choose to ignore my comments; that's their business. However, most of you responding so far seem to have taken on the role of speaking for Mr. Waid by rushing to "defend". It seems to be a mistake in your perception. I have not written these posts to debate; I am simply offering another viewpoint.

Whatever the professionals have been trying to do about the Rich Johnston problem has obviously not worked; so how could my mention of a different approach truly be so damaging? We are all human; we all make mistakes; but that's no excuse to stop thinking about ways to truly solve the situation. Griping on an internet bulletin just doesn't cut it; it only fuels the fire. My hope is that Mr. Waid will "get it" and start applying his energy to other possibilities to solve his plight. None of us want late books; none of us want to be deprived of the joy of actually talking to the creators. I, for one, just want this recurring negative to be finally solved. It can be done; but the pros need to play it smart.

[djshalope]

i think the angst is misplaced in this thread. Rich's column reports "rumors" and often there are tons of negative speculations. problem is, a lot of these negative speculations are true. Mark you wouldn't have to spend hours defending your book if the inconsistencies in mainstream comics publishing weren't so prominent. just because none of your creators are dropping doesn't mean i wont go to the store only to pick up another crappy issue of what was a good series. case in point - this week's Captain America and the Falcon - which had a confusing if not interesting run going but just turned into $#!+ this week. often i think Rich is feeding off the weaknesses of comics publishing - and i don't see anything wrong with that. i think he's keeping things in check more than he's fucking them up, from a consumer view.

[Mark Waid]

My entire point with my responses is that these allegedly frustrated professionals do nothing of actual merit to fight the problem of Rich Johnston.

You have NO IDEA the steps of, as apparently YOU ALONE can define them, "actual merit" I or others have taken over the years to fight this, or any other, damaging problem that might affect me, my peers and/or my friends. Jonah does. Other comics website operators know. Other companies and other industry professionals know. Sometimes we ally in these battles; sometimes we go it alone. But just because these skirmishes are none of your business doesn't mean they don't go on behind the scenes--where they SHOULD go on. And it is a gargantuanly offensive disservice for you to lump together those of us who have made sacrifices of time or effort to fight for principles in which we believe with those professionals who instead short-sightedly choose to exploit Rich's bottom-feeding for their own gain.

[RichJohnston]

Yeah? Tell them who, of all the people involved with this project AT Top Cow you could have chosen to talk to, you "ran this by," Rich. And, better, when.

I already know the answers. I just think they're illuminating and think you should share.

Matt Hawkins who I've always have concerning Top Cow. The weekend. Same time as I did with Marvel, DC, etc.

[DBHughes]

You have NO IDEA the steps of, as apparently YOU ALONE can define them, "actual merit" I or others have taken over the years to fight this, or any other, damaging problem that might affect me, my peers and/or my friends. Jonah does. Other comics website operators know. Other companies and other industry professionals know. Sometimes we ally in these battles; sometimes we go it alone. But just because these skirmishes are none of your business doesn't mean they don't go on behind the scenes--where they SHOULD go on. And it is a gargantuanly offensive disservice for you to lump together those of us who have made sacrifices of time or effort to fight for principles in which we believe with those professionals who instead short-sightedly choose to exploit Rich's bottom-feeding for their own gain.

Then pardon me, Mr. Waid. Indeed, who am I to state the obvious? Or do you disagree that actions of actual merit should bear actual results? The fact remains that if so many dislike Rich's actions and so many believe it is bad for business; certainly they could squeeze CBR's wallet to the point of eliminating at least that level of "respect" for Rich. It's lunacy if you want to claim CBR has no culpability in this and should be left alone.

In any case, I've said my piece. Keep doing what you're doing, Mr. Waid; it's obviously worked so well. I bid you adieu.

[Charles RB]

Out of interest, what 'colour' light was next to the Hunter Killed rumour again? I'm sure it was a Red (Very Definately Bunk) or Amber (Most Likely Bunk), which you'd think people reading the column would know better than to sieze on as definate news.

[Mark Waid]

It's lunacy if you want to claim CBR has no culpability in this and should be left alone.

I said no such thing. Not even close. I didn't even imply as much. Congratulations--your diploma from the Rich Johhston School of Reportage is on its way.

In any case, I've said my piece. Keep doing what you're doing, Mr. Waid; it's obviously worked so well.

Believe me, pal, if it were within my single-handed power to keep clueless loudmouths off the 'net, you'd have a LOT of free time ahead of you.

[Mark Waid]

Matt Hawkins who I've always have concerning Top Cow.

Right. Not me, not Silvestri, not the inkers, not the colorist, not the EIC, not the Managing Editor, not the Editor, not the Marketing Director, not the Publisher. Instead, Matt Hawkins. Does he hold an important position at the Cow as the President/COO even though he's not often directly involved with the actual content OF the books? Sure. But not me, not Silvestri, not the inkers, not the colorist, not the EIC, not the Managing Editor, not the Editor, not the Marketing Director, not the Publisher, not even--I don't know--Marc's wife. it's pretty inarguable that, given your options, you made a deliberately limiting choice. Or, to put it another way, never let it be said that Rich Johnston didn't do the least he could do.

The weekend. Same time as I did with Marvel, DC, etc.

I know. I just wanted to let you call yourself out on your technique of e-mailing people after-hours over a weekend and then saying, "Hey, I gave you a chance to reply!" when you don't hear back from before they get back to their desks on Monday morning.

[alexanderness]

I know. I just wanted to let you call yourself out on your technique of e-mailing people after-hours over a weekend and then saying, "Hey, I gave you a chance to reply!" when you don't hear back from before they get back to their desks on Monday morning.

I admire and respect you Mark, love your work, and I agree with your comments about protocol and respect for creative talents. However this one small comment may not be so cut and dried. In today's internet world people assume that writers and pros are online at all times. So in the off chance Rich did email you at all and it was off hours, I do not necessarilly think it was so possibly evilly motivated.

alex

[Mark Waid]

I admire and respect you Mark, love your work, and I agree with your comments about protocol and respect for creative talents. However this one small comment may not be so cut and dried. In today's internet world people assume that writers and pros are online at all times. So in the off chance Rich did email you at all and it was off hours, I do not necessarilly think it was so possibly evilly motivated.

Thanks for the kind words. As far as e-mailing over a weekend, I wasn't really speaking of me and, actually, you're making my case for me. It isn't a totally unlikely assumption that freelancers (as opposed to office staffers) would be more readily available over the weekend, though it's a kind of unfair one. Therefore, the fact that in this and many cases, the one person Rich chose to "run his rumor past" over the weekend WASN'T a freelancer but, rather, an office staffer...well, draw your own conclusions about the convenience of Rich's choice.

This is the bottom line--not replying to you, just saying this in general: regardless of where it takes form--in a newspaper, in an on-line column, or even just venting within earshot of stranger--spreading gossip is wrong. Simply, fundamentally wrong. I'm not throwing stones from within a glass house; I've been guilty of repeating things I've heard in conversation, too (though not in print). Engaging in idle gossip is like breaking the speed limit. We've all done it--it's fun, it's wicked, the seemingly innocent darkness of it is attractive--but that doesn't make it right, it doesn't make me proud when I'm called on it, and it doesn't diminish the consequences that sometimes accompany its doing.

The question isn't to what degree someone's life may or may not be affected by internet rumor; the point is, if you haven't the slightest idea whether what you write (or say, or pass along) is true, but you do know that it might carry negative consequences towards someone else, writing it and circulating it is, flatly, a morally indefensible choice. Knowing that, why then would you do it deliberately and with pride?

[alexanderness]

Thanks for the kind words. As far as e-mailing over a weekend, I wasn't really speaking of me and, actually, you're making my case for me. It isn't a totally unlikely assumption that freelancers (as opposed to office staffers) would be more readily available over the weekend, though it's a kind of unfair one. Therefore, the fact that in this and many cases, the one person Rich chose to "run his rumor past" over the weekend WASN'T a freelancer but, rather, an office staffer...well, draw your own conclusions about the convenience of Rich's choice.


Ah sorry. I got things mixed about in my melon head.
But happy if I made your case.

[topcowgal]

As I was reading through this thread, I realized how silly this whole ordeal has become. It's obvious that although Rich says that he tried to check his facts, truth is, it wouldn't have been most advantageous for him to actually get a real response. As I should be one of the obvious people to run these and any facts for that matter by, he didn't...I act as the director of marketing and public relations, and first I heard of it was in Rich's column. Truth, I am in contact with Jonah Weiland on a regular basis, so Rich knows what I do, and how to contact me, or any editor.
The argument isn't just about this one topic/rumor. It's about acting without the notion of having to be accountable for our actions.
Mr. Waid's posts visit many relevant topics that plague any industry. It's just a pity that Rich feels the need to contribute to the degradation of artists, writers, creators, etc. Replying to an accusation in no way implies fault. I feel what it does, is allow an opportunity for the accuser to either step up and back up what he's said, or defend his lame and hasty actions by blaming it on someone else.
I understand that there's a job in there somewhere, that Rich is just fulfilling. And I can understand that this is how he makes a living. I also understand that this is not the first, and will not be the last, of this kind of action by Rich. But wouldn't it be great, in a perfect world, if you (Rich) made it a point to be 1) held accountable for your haste in researching the topic at hand and the resources, and 2) for one second, put yourself in the shoes of someone you've wrongly accused.
I'm not being naive. Just hopeful, that what always has been in this industry, is not the way it will always be. :)
Best,
Annie Pham
Top Cow Productions, Inc.
Marketing and Public Relations

[The Xenos]

Dammit. I just stumbled across this powderkeg jsut before I was gonna head to bed. Reading this, I feel like I'm Rev. McKay watching the titans battle at the end of Kingdom Come. I really like all these writers. Wow.

-Xenos

[outlander78]

Perhaps its because I work in a different industry (not banking :) ), but asking someone for comment over a weekend for a column coming out Monday morning seems to be far too little notice. I hope the question was not contained in an email or voice message - not everyone checks their work accounts during the weekend.

A bit of reasoning which may or ma not be correct:

As I understand it, those who order comics from Diamond and others have the most control over sales. Buyers may have a little if they pre-order, but companies and creators certainly do not. So if a column, rumour or any other bit of information affects the those who stock store shelves then angry retorts or deafening silence from creators will not have much of an effect. I would guess that that is why the marketing done before a comic launches is done months ahead of time, when the orders are placed, rather than a day or two before they ship.

[LuckItSelf]

Google Journalism, Ethics. Yeehaw. Try suing him or CBR for libel? He's in the US of A, that might work. Shit, sounds like there's enough of you to file a class action suit.

Or, alternatively, considering you've got access to a lot more readers than Mr. Johnston, have you and your associates print their impressions of him in your own books. I realize that devoting space and time to something you find this infuriating might not seem very appetizing, but you've got a really big stick you could swing at him if you wanted to.

Might be a case of feeding the troll, but he'd have a hard time responding in your medium. Or, if he started doing the job he's created for himself ethically, you could just forget it.

[outlander78]

That's what I was getting it - feeding the troll does not apply. Also, I don't consider Rich a troll.

[Charles RB]

He's in the US of A, that might work.

He's still a British citizen last I checked.

[LuckItSelf]

I haven't read his column, and I'm not really party to any kind of knowledge other than what I've seen posted here, so I dont really consider him anything in particular. Some of the people who've posted seem to view him as such, and that was what I was refering to, although if I've overstepped a line in my assumptions, I apologize.

I was offering suggestions for the aggrieved, although since I'm a fan of Mr. Waid's, I'm probably a little biased. If it's a monetary issue, which some seem to think it is, then courts could settle the legality of the thing. If it's just a battle of opinion, which seems a little more likely, then one party certainly has a much larger and more robust way to influence popular opinion than the other.

Mr. Johnston's certainly made some cogent points about advertising and his role in it, but it seems to be a question of ethics more than the nature of what he does. I actually sympathize with him, because a lot of these attacks probably seem like they're focused on his right to even exist, and some of them actually look to me like just that (as a semi-neutral observer). I believe he's got every right to do what he does, but it sounds like he could certainly do it a little more ethically. If he feels like everything he's done is on the up and up, and he's got carte blanche, then I kind of think the creators and artists he's affected are perfectly within their rights to point out why and how they disagree in their own medium, say like in a letters column.

The blame only lies with him in part anyhow. The people reading his column took the rumors he offered as fact. If Mr. Waid, Bendis and Quesada all took the time to point out that what he is in the business of posting are rumors, and often times unsubstantiated rumors, Mr. Johnston's audience might become a tad less gullible. As it stands, they've done that to a degree, but the primary focus of their message seems to be how pissed off they are. They should probably devote a little editorial space in their respective magazines to the issue and solve the problem themselves.

[LuckItSelf]

Argh, well I guess suing him might be out of the question then. Lawsuits are retarded anyhow.

[The Xenos]

I think the biggest problem is that people take this column way too seriously. Heck, even greenlights, unless Rich has spoken with the authors and people directly, I don't take too seriously. These are whisperings in the comics world, true or not. Rich puts them on display in public. That can be dangerous because the public, esepcially comic fans, are so damn stupid at times and overreact and do not comprehend what they read so much. I enjoy seeing what people are saying. I enjoy seeing even what false rumors pop up and seeing them disproven. I enjoy the false rumors, the redlights and even greenlights that slip in, fall flat as much as seeing ones come true. I enjoy seeing new and crappy upcoming Rob Liefeld art. I enjoy hearing what creators are arguing about, or even jsut supposedly arguing about. I enjoy hearing what ego trip and media hype Mark Millar is setting up this work. I enjoy seeing preview pages from artists.

I enjoy this column. I don't take it as Bible truth even on green lights.If only more people would take this coulmn less seriously and just enjoy it. Then again there's a whole marketing angle to this coulmn. I hate marketing. I'vew been listening to a buncha Bill Hicks lately and agree with his advise to these people in marketing: "Kill yourself." They are "satan's little helpers" and so messing with out society. Then again they are so encrusted in out society like parasites, that comics or whatever media in this world can't live without them. Ugh. So we gotta deal with them.

As for those involved, as much as I like them, Quesada is a bit of a jerk. I like his stuff and I liked some of his ealier changes in Marvel. I am ticked at his unfinished work and unfinished work he was in charge of. Really ticked, esepcially as a DD fan. This was the book that made

I find Bendis is one of the biggest jerks in comics. I mean I love his stuff, like the guy, but gosh damn if he isn't a jerk at times. Then again that's what makes the Powers letter col so fun. Then again, I think he's nothing compared to Mark Millar. He's a jerk and I dislike some of his work for it.

For Rich, I like the guy. He does need to lighten up the column a bit because some people make too much of it. He does emphasize how this is a rumor and gossip colum, but maybe he needs to do it more so as people are so *x#4ing dense. Plus, as with everyone in this easily aggrivated world, being nicer and putting a bit more honey in your messages doesn't hurt.

As for Mark Waid, he freaking rules. He seems quite pissed, and rightfully so, in this column, but generally I've seen him to be a nice guy and just a great fan and writer. Seeing how something Rich said delayed Legion, I can understand his strong feelings. Plus, hey, Rich delayed a book I like. Plus, of all the people here, I must confess that I like his books the best.

Though Rich has only had 2. And Holy Quesada, Batman!, is issue 3 long overdue.

-Xenos

[Ugoff]

I feel for you Mark but I cant help but play devil's advocate here. There are all types of rumor and gossip websites for almost any kind of genre whether it be television, music(although i'm not to sure about music), or comics. I just wish people wouldn't believe everything they read. Sometimes I'll read Johnston's Lying in the Gutter but usually I dont cuz I come to CBR for the comic book forums and the tv show forum. I do hope that things improve for you Mark and others.

[RichJohnston]

As I was reading through this thread, I realized how silly this whole ordeal has become. It's obvious that although Rich says that he tried to check his facts, truth is, it wouldn't have been most advantageous for him to actually get a real response. As I should be one of the obvious people to run these and any facts for that matter by, he didn't...I act as the director of marketing and public relations, and first I heard of it was in Rich's column. Truth, I am in contact with Jonah Weiland on a regular basis, so Rich knows what I do, and how to contact me, or any editor.
The argument isn't just about this one topic/rumor. It's about acting without the notion of having to be accountable for our actions.
Mr. Waid's posts visit many relevant topics that plague any industry. It's just a pity that Rich feels the need to contribute to the degradation of artists, writers, creators, etc. Replying to an accusation in no way implies fault. I feel what it does, is allow an opportunity for the accuser to either step up and back up what he's said, or defend his lame and hasty actions by blaming it on someone else.
I understand that there's a job in there somewhere, that Rich is just fulfilling. And I can understand that this is how he makes a living. I also understand that this is not the first, and will not be the last, of this kind of action by Rich. But wouldn't it be great, in a perfect world, if you (Rich) made it a point to be 1) held accountable for your haste in researching the topic at hand and the resources, and 2) for one second, put yourself in the shoes of someone you've wrongly accused.
I'm not being naive. Just hopeful, that what always has been in this industry, is not the way it will always be. :)
Best,
Annie Pham
Top Cow Productions, Inc.
Marketing and Public Relations

Annie, haven't spoken to you before, and I have not been aware of you before, but I've previously been asked to contact Matt. I'll add you to my list. I wrote a column for Jonah, but I don't share his contacts list (and he does not have mine). People need to knpw that when they talk to Jonah, as head of CBR, he won't just go to me. I have always been accountable for my actions at LITG. My street addresss and mobile phone number are on every column. I run retractions, I always allow right to reply and I'll comment on past stories. I don't ddegrade writers or artists. This is not how I make my living, I work in advertising, why I'm in Los Angeles this weekend.

1) and 2) I do. Loks like it's a perfect world after all.

[RichJohnston]

I think the biggest problem is that people take this column way too seriously. Heck, even greenlights, unless Rich has spoken with the authors and people directly, I don't take too seriously. These are whisperings in the comics world, true or not. Rich puts them on display in public. That can be dangerous because the public, esepcially comic fans, are so damn stupid at times and overreact and do not comprehend what they read so much. I enjoy seeing what people are saying. I enjoy seeing even what false rumors pop up and seeing them disproven. I enjoy the false rumors, the redlights and even greenlights that slip in, fall flat as much as seeing ones come true. I enjoy seeing new and crappy upcoming Rob Liefeld art. I enjoy hearing what creators are arguing about, or even jsut supposedly arguing about. I enjoy hearing what ego trip and media hype Mark Millar is setting up this work. I enjoy seeing preview pages from artists.

I enjoy this column. I don't take it as Bible truth even on green lights.If only more people would take this coulmn less seriously and just enjoy it. Then again there's a whole marketing angle to this coulmn. I hate marketing. I'vew been listening to a buncha Bill Hicks lately and agree with his advise to these people in marketing: "Kill yourself." They are "satan's little helpers" and so messing with out society. Then again they are so encrusted in out society like parasites, that comics or whatever media in this world can't live without them. Ugh. So we gotta deal with them.

As for those involved, as much as I like them, Quesada is a bit of a jerk. I like his stuff and I liked some of his ealier changes in Marvel. I am ticked at his unfinished work and unfinished work he was in charge of. Really ticked, esepcially as a DD fan. This was the book that made

I find Bendis is one of the biggest jerks in comics. I mean I love his stuff, like the guy, but gosh damn if he isn't a jerk at times. Then again that's what makes the Powers letter col so fun. Then again, I think he's nothing compared to Mark Millar. He's a jerk and I dislike some of his work for it.

For Rich, I like the guy. He does need to lighten up the column a bit because some people make too much of it. He does emphasize how this is a rumor and gossip colum, but maybe he needs to do it more so as people are so *x#4ing dense. Plus, as with everyone in this easily aggrivated world, being nicer and putting a bit more honey in your messages doesn't hurt.

As for Mark Waid, he freaking rules. He seems quite pissed, and rightfully so, in this column, but generally I've seen him to be a nice guy and just a great fan and writer. Seeing how something Rich said delayed Legion, I can understand his strong feelings. Plus, hey, Rich delayed a book I like. Plus, of all the people here, I must confess that I like his books the best.

Though Rich has only had 2. And Holy Quesada, Batman!, is issue 3 long overdue.

-Xenos

Talk to William about 3. Also remember 7 issues of Dirtbag and 6 of X-Flies.

[RichJohnston]

I haven't read his column, and I'm not really party to any kind of knowledge other than what I've seen posted here, so I dont really consider him anything in particular. Some of the people who've posted seem to view him as such, and that was what I was refering to, although if I've overstepped a line in my assumptions, I apologize.

I was offering suggestions for the aggrieved, although since I'm a fan of Mr. Waid's, I'm probably a little biased. If it's a monetary issue, which some seem to think it is, then courts could settle the legality of the thing. If it's just a battle of opinion, which seems a little more likely, then one party certainly has a much larger and more robust way to influence popular opinion than the other.

Mr. Johnston's certainly made some cogent points about advertising and his role in it, but it seems to be a question of ethics more than the nature of what he does. I actually sympathize with him, because a lot of these attacks probably seem like they're focused on his right to even exist, and some of them actually look to me like just that (as a semi-neutral observer). I believe he's got every right to do what he does, but it sounds like he could certainly do it a little more ethically. If he feels like everything he's done is on the up and up, and he's got carte blanche, then I kind of think the creators and artists he's affected are perfectly within their rights to point out why and how they disagree in their own medium, say like in a letters column.

The blame only lies with him in part anyhow. The people reading his column took the rumors he offered as fact. If Mr. Waid, Bendis and Quesada all took the time to point out that what he is in the business of posting are rumors, and often times unsubstantiated rumors, Mr. Johnston's audience might become a tad less gullible. As it stands, they've done that to a degree, but the primary focus of their message seems to be how pissed off they are. They should probably devote a little editorial space in their respective magazines to the issue and solve the problem themselves.

Every column starts with the fact it's rumour.

[Matt Adler]

Rich comes off as polite and reasoned, and makes a convincing case for his side, while Mark just goes off on an abusive rant. Mark, love your writing, but the Internet really seems to bring out the worst in you. I'm sure you're much nicer in person though :)

[djshalope]

oh Rich it's a shame you didn't put in a link to your little spat here in this week's column.

[RichJohnston]

oh Rich it's a shame you didn't put in a link to your little spat here in this week's column.

Column written before I left. Thread hadn't kicked off then.

[RichJohnston]

I haven't read his column, and I'm not really party to any kind of knowledge other than what I've seen posted here, so I dont really consider him anything in particular.

Can I ask why you're posting here if you've never read the column?

Mr. Johnston's certainly made some cogent points about advertising and his role in it,

Did I? I just said I work in advertising. not sure what else I wrote. Could be the jet lag.
If he feels like everything he's done is on the up and up, and he's got carte blanche, then I kind of think the creators and artists he's affected are perfectly within their rights to point out why and how they disagree in their own medium, say like in a letters column.

Certainly. I have and I will continue to change published work and allow right to replies where requested.

[/QUOTE] If Mr. Waid, Bendis and Quesada all took the time to point out that what he is in the business of posting are rumors, and often times unsubstantiated rumors, Mr. Johnston's audience might become a tad less gullible.[/QUOTE]

Ah go on, read the column. At the beginning of everyone it states it clearly and straightforwardly.

[LuckItSelf]

I'm just meddling, I caught the article over on newsrama and figured I'd see what the fallout was. Not to mention, I read these forums daily, but I don't think I've ever read your column.

In your reply over on the newsrama boards you said 'advertising is a two-way street', which was what I was talking about. I think that's pretty accurate, you're basically providing people with free publicity and hype, although there's no reason it has to be positive publicity. I guess your only responsibility in the matter (at least in the eyes of Mr. Waid) is that it be accurate publicity. Maybe I read more into the context of that remark than I should have, certainly within my abilities to have done that.

What traffic light rating did you give the item about the artist on Mr. Waid's book?

[stealthwise]

I've just read this entire thread, the last several LITG's and the Newsarama interview.

A few things:

- It's unfortunate that Mark Waid, one of the most talented superhero comic writers in the business right now, feels that he needs to take the time away from his work to essentially rant about Rich Johnston and his journalistic role.

- It's unfortunate that Rich has been accused of "rumour mongering" (if that is the correct phrasing) and even more unfortunate that this may be true in many cases.

However, on the one hand, Rich has a responsibility to make certain that he consults the correct sources on stories, giving them adequate and reasonable time to respond, because he reaches an audience of over 10,000 people approximately. On the other hand, he only reaches about 10% (if that) of the comic buying audience, and he clearly labels his rumours as such, with occasionally arguable "inconsistencies" (green when it could be yellow, or red, and vice versa, etc).

I think that the biggest problem that comic creators are having with Rich is the amount of time that they put into addressing what he puts in his column, which they feel they have to spend correcting any incomplete or incorrect information. But they seem to resent "having" to do so. It's unfortunate, but the solution is a sort of middle ground imo.

My advice to Rich is to make that little extra effort to please those involved in his weekly column. My advice to the creators is to not sweat this stuff so much and maybe just try to avoid or ignore the online happenings that can crop up from time to time.

[devildinosaur]

It's unfortunate that Mark Waid, one of the most talented superhero comic writers in the business right now, feels that he needs to take the time away from his work to essentially rant about Rich Johnston and his journalistic role. I think Mark felt it necessary when he had to take the time to assure friends, family members, publishers, and distributors that what had been reported on was in fact bunk.

P.S. Rich isn't a journalist.

[stealthwise]

I think Mark felt it necessary when he had to take the time to assure friends, family members, publishers, and distributors that what had been reported on was in fact bunk.

P.S. Rich isn't a journalist.

I don't see why it was necessary to even reassure anyone of anything if Rich isn't a journalist.

To get a different viewpoint on this, check out Andrew Wheeler's latest on www.ninthart.com

[alexanderness]

I don't see why it was necessary to even reassure anyone of anything if Rich isn't a journalist.

To get a different viewpoint on this, check out Andrew Wheeler's latest on www.ninthart.com

retailers definately cut back on orders when a title seems unstable. Rumours and lies and misinformation are the reason people need to be reassured. However, I think Rich Johnston is a journalist, he writes well, uses sources and makes part of his living via his involvement in the media. Whether or not I agree with his methods or views is really not the point.

[RichJohnston]

I'm just meddling, I caught the article over on newsrama and figured I'd see what the fallout was. Not to mention, I read these forums daily, but I don't think I've ever read your column.

Ah, must have been the Beverly Hills Kinko's. Surprised I was so cogent.


What traffic light rating did you give the item about the artist on Mr. Waid's book?

AMBER I believe.

[RichJohnston]

Right. Not me, not Silvestri, not the inkers, not the colorist, not the EIC, not the Managing Editor, not the Editor, not the Marketing Director, not the Publisher. Instead, Matt Hawkins.

That's right. The person I've been told to contact at Top Cow for such matters.

Does he hold an important position at the Cow as the President/COO even though he's not often directly involved with the actual content OF the books? Sure. But not me,

Last time I emailed you asking about stuff, you sent me serious death threats.

not Silvestri, not the inkers, not the colorist, not the EIC, not the Managing Editor, not the Editor, not the Marketing Director, not the Publisher, not even--I don't know--Marc's wife. it's pretty inarguable that, given your options, you made a deliberately limiting choice.

The choice I'd been instructed to make by Top Cow, previously.

Or, to put it another way, never let it be said that Rich Johnston didn't do the least he could do.

Or to put it another way, when you accused me of just typing a 20 second piece up and putting it out there without attempting to contact Top Cow, you knew that wasn't true.

I know. I just wanted to let you call yourself out on your technique of e-mailing people after-hours over a weekend and then saying, "Hey, I gave you a chance to reply!" when you don't hear back from before they get back to their desks on Monday morning.

Yet it seems to work for comic companies like Marvel, DC, Image, Devil's Due, AiT, Oni, Dark Horse, Avatar, APC, BurlyMan and, indeed Top Cow previously. Only time I can recall of late when that was a problem was with DreamWave when they were "closed for the holidays".

[Mark Waid]

Or to put it another way, when you accused me of just typing a 20 second piece up and putting it out there without attempting to contact Top Cow, you knew that wasn't true.

Oh, dear God, Rich, learn to read--or, at least, resist the urge to lamely spin the truth in front of someone who's not going to let you get away with it. I said you put a bullshit rumor out there and that no one from Top Cow had heard from you on it beforehand. I never said you didn't "attempt to contact Top Cow"; I said that no one heard from you. E-mailing one guy once, over a weekend, DOESN'T MEAN HE HEARD YOU before you sent your column in in the wee hours of Monday morning, and you know it.

You frequently post unfounded rumors that cause needless frustration and negativity for people who are almost total strangers to you and who have done you or others no harm. Not a very compassionate activity. And yet, you seem proud of this. When you feel like rejoining the human race, use a special knock so we'll know it's you.

[Marcantony]

Mark, youre coming across as a jerk. Better drop this rubbish now before you make yourself look like a bigger fool than you already have.
Considering this attack came at the same time as the Quesada/Bendis idiocy I have to wonder if theres a connection.

[alexanderness]

Mark, youre coming across as a jerk. Better drop this rubbish now before you make yourself look like a bigger fool than you already have.
Considering this attack came at the same time as the Quesada/Bendis idiocy I have to wonder if theres a connection.

ever consider wellbutrin? or xanex? they work wonders.

Waid has every right to make his points.

[RichJohnston]

I never said you didn't "attempt to contact Top Cow"


I believe you said "God knows, he certainly doesn't bother to try to validate or corroborate this announcement in any way."

You've now shown that you knew this not to be true.

I also don't post unfounded rumours. This rumour had founds. So does the rumour that Diana was assassinated by MI5. Didn't mean either were true, but doesn't mean that neither shouldn't be openly discussed if they're already being talked about.

[RichJohnston]

Mark, youre coming across as a jerk. Better drop this rubbish now before you make yourself look like a bigger fool than you already have.
Considering this attack came at the same time as the Quesada/Bendis idiocy I have to wonder if theres a connection.

Mark has every write to post his thoughts and feelings on this, and I'll be linking to them without comment next week, so that every LITG reader can read them too.

[Verity]

It's funny how the loudest pro voices attacking Rich over the last week or so have really nothing to support their attacks.

All the arguements put forward are either so intrinsically biased, flawed or lacking in any evidence that they likely wouldn't make it to LITG were they about anyone else, certainly not without a red light flagging their dubious nature.

Queseda's and Bendis's diatribe is a text book example of trolling at it's very best/worst. In the absence of using any facts or even examples to support their attack on Rich personally, they deliberately use overly emotive terms such as "raping" and "stealing" when discussing what Rich does. Their character assasination is based purely on assumptions and most of their comments predicated on 'facts' they have obviously imagined in lieu of any facts which might support their attacks.

Queseda:
"I mean imagine you’ve spent all this money to market, take out ads and prepare for the launch of a major publishing initiative only to have one of these rumor jockeys break the news.* It’s literally that they’re making their money, getting their hits from stealing from us."
Imagination is important as despite making the accusation and having some knowledge as EIC he can't cite a single example of this. How can Rich revealing a major publishing initiative be stealing money from Marvel? Sure terms like marketing and advertising are cited by Queseda but he doesn't even attempt to explain how LITG breaking the story before Wizard does, damages these campaigns.

Bendis:
"Rich always declares some higher purpose to what he does which is basically just raping other people’s careers, and there is no higher calling"
This is a lie. Where has Rich ever declared some higher purpose to what he does? If anything the opposite is true, Rich has constantly deflected praise from LITG fans of his work congratulatring him on his 'journalism'.

Bendis:
"He gets paid by the hit, he does it for money".
Whilst this may not be a lie it's a gross assumption, the kind Bendis himself would likely take umbrage to. When has Rich ever said he does it for the money? It's a fact that Rich gets paid for his work but he has never ever said that its the reason he writes LITG. Besides is writing for money such a bad thing? Why does Bendis write comics? Bendis gets paid royalties depending on how may comics he sells, it's possible Queseda has a performance bonus clause. Where were there objections when an Avengers cover appeared proclaiming 'one of these Avengers will die' in an effort to shift more copies.

It certainly wasn't out of love and respect for creator owned books, as Bendis cited in a press release, that he moved Powers to Marvel. Did he even mention the fiscal benefits of his decision?

Even stranger, Bendis then focuses his anger on Rich's spoilers (which Rich has subsequently addressed following complaints from readers). It seems from reading it as if Bendis has actually run out of any rationale for his attacks on Rich at this stage. He says Rich's spoilers are "wrong!* It’s stealing!* Its mean dozens of people worked really hard to put on a show and he tries to @#$$ all over it, for his own benefit."

Bizarrely though Bendis also says that It's exactly what Millar would do, though in Millar's case he'd be complimenting him on his "genius"for doing so:
"I really only get %^$##@ off about story spoilers which Rich never marks.* He just throws them out there and he does it on purpose so people talk and go look. And I know he does it on purpose because he worships Millar and that is exactly what Millar would do if he ran the site, and I mean that as a compliment.* Millar is a genius."

Clearly for Bendis it's not what Rich does but who does it thus negating his entire arguement. He doesen't say why he dislikes Rich so much or offer up any reasons to dislike Rich other than the flawed unsupported motives which he Bendis makes up himself.

The same must be said for Queseda's input. Whilst attacking Rich's column for stirring things up and spoiling stuff and somehow undermining corporate marketing strategies (so the fans don't have to buy Wizard for basic information presumably) he and Bendis unabashedly bukkake bask in the brilliance that is the epitome of virtue, restraint and towing the company line that is Howard Stern.

There has been some speculation from Bendis's own board, stemming from the confusion his own fans had ,as to the reasons why he disliked Rich so much personally. The fact that Bendis's wife had been mentioned in a LITG emerged as the possible reason for Bendis's animosity as if Rich had crossed some line by reporting on a pro's personal life rather than the industry.

But Bendis himself revels in posting reports about others personal lives wether true or not. Indeed Bendis himself has brought his wife into the public arena by featuring her in his own work. So it can't possibly be that.

Ironically the LITG piece on Bendis's wife allowed Bendis the opportunity tpo address and dismiss rumours that were circulating about his descison to drop out of a planned con here in the UK. I myself overheard customers in a comic shop talking about the LITG Bendis's wife rumour as fact long before it aired in LITG as a rumour and was then squashed by Bendis, thanks to LITG.

Queseda and Bendis talk a lot about how LITG damages advertising and marketing plans without giving a single example to support their case. Yet both are happy to cost their fans money to just learn about their latest projects.

There are many reasons to buy the fine organ that is Wizard Magazine, it's excellent articles, incisive interviews, informative regular features, rumours (oops!) and humorous asides. But more recently in both the magazine and it's conventions they've been using 'announcements' as a reasaon to buy the magazine. Not exclusive interviews nor informative articles just basic PR announcements of new books and projects from their 'Hot Creator' list.

And Bendis and Queseda both support this iniative that fans HAVE to purchase Wizard to discover first what their favourite creators are working on next or even in some instances why the latest issues of their books have never appeared, unless of course LITG reveals the information first for free.

Still in their defence Bendis and Quesada are paradigms of well reasoned discourse compared to Mark "FUCKING" Waid.

Continued below

[Verity]

Given Waid's prediliction for straightforward questions he allready knows the answer to, here's a very straight forward one for him:
Have you ever threatened Rich with physical harm?

Waids responses here are far more damaging than any piece LITG has run concerning him and far more revealing than any profile or interview he's given.

For all his writing abilities and talent he's just proven himself a seriously nasty ill-tempered piece of work.

The trollish tone of his aggressive self pitying trollish rants have eclipsed any valid points (were there any?) that he attempted to make up.

Again like Bendis and Queseda in the absence of any valid arguement he repeatedly uses insults and states conjecture as facts mis representing what Rich has reported.

Waid:
"Professional coward and succubus Rich Johnson spends, oh, let's say twenty seconds typing up a bullshit rumor he overheard about some project I'm connected with. Specifically this week, he decides to claim that my new series is losing its artist with issue two."
Specifically Waid is wrong from the offset, Rich never claimed this. Rich reported a RUMOUR and clearly flagged it with an Amber light. For the morons out there the significance of an Amber Flag is clearly indicated in the introduction to each and every LITG:"AMBER signifies an identifiable agenda/slant or bias in the source that may affect the work, or that the source isn't clear, or another factor that might bring the piece into doubt."

So it's clear that Rich didn't claim that Silvestri was leaving but reported a rumour (not that far fetched based on the fact that Silvestri's has bailed on books and solicted issues with his name attached as penciller that he doesn't entirely draw in the past) but clearly claimed that there is a bias or slant in this rumour and any veracity is doubtful. A piece stating 'Waid outs self as trollish aggressive asshole with anger management issues' for example would likely be flagged with a green light.

Waid:
"Remember, in all likelihood, it takes Rich less time to type those words than it's taken you to read this far in this post. That's an important part of how Rich damages people. Less time because, God knows, he certainly doesn't bother to try to validate or corroborate this announcement in any way."
None of which is true and is pure conjecture on Waid's part.

Waid:
"And that's okay, apparently, because after all, he just reports what he hears, right?"
Wrong. Rich clearly flags each and every piece he reports.

Waid:
"Investigation is for actual journalists, or at the very least for genuinely responsible people rather than total lowlifes who seek out a smarmy career doing what we all do with some level of shame from time to time but what every single one of us learned as early as childhood was an act we should never take pride in: spreading gossip"
It's a shame you never learnt about spreading lies and threatening physical harm against people Mark.

Waid:
"So, Monday. Rich takes a few seconds to "report" a bullshit rumor that isn't even remotely true"
It's a pity that Waid in attempting to attack Rich's effort to ascertain the veracity of the piece doesn't employ the truth himself. Did Waid attempt to validate or corroborate his claim that Rich didn't attempt to validate the piece or contact Top Cow?

Nope. He's pissed when he assumes incorrectly that Rich does it but it's okay for him to do claim how Rich sourced the story without contacting Rich first to validate!

Still it's good to know that Silvestri is pencilling every iota of the series and is in it for the long run.

Waid:
"Irresponsible? Oh, God, yes. But it's out there regardless because Rich shoots first and asks questions later. (And by "later," I generally mean "only after someone actually calls him on his lies.") Twenty seconds of typing, bam, done. Rumor spread."
Oh the irony!

Having aggressively attacked Rich incorrectly for what he himself so readily does Waid then proffers a nonsensical bizzarre account of the effect Rich's LITG piece had on him. Despite Waid's account making little sense when scrutinised on it's own merits it should still be read through the lense of vitriol, hypocrisy and lies the rest of Waid's post so abley illuminates.

It's worth noting at this point that whilst Waid talks about the potential 'hurt' Rich inflicts on other people and the hypothetical damage to their livlihood a LITG piece can cause (as supposedly demonstrated in Waid's account of his trying Monday morning last week), that Waid has actually threatened to inflict actual bodily harm on Rich and lobbied to get Rich fired from a previous site thus actually damaging Rich's livlihood.

Waid:
"Then, for the REST OF MONDAY FUCKING MORNING, from the moment I AWAKEN, I have to spend literally HOURS fielding e-mails and phone calls squashing this rumor immediately or risk having it do damage to a project I both enjoy and which helps keep food on the plates of people who depend on me."
Poor Mark, literally hours (unlikely given the slant of the rest of his post and the lies therin but we'll take him at his word). Ignoring the fact that he didn't need to respond to any of these distracting calls and mails but merely contact Rich through any of the multiple avenues to correct the piece as LITG regularly does later the same day, Waid could easily have sent a single request to Top Cow asking them to address the issue as is their job.

Except who has Waid's e-mail and phone mumber?

And given that the e-mails can be responded to at any time, ideally after Top Cow has rectified the situation, it must have been the calls that ate up so much of Waid's valuable time.

It can't have been anyone from Top Cow (why would they ring Waid asking him if the rumour was true?) or likewise anyone who would contact Top Cow or McLaughlin ahead of Waid.

Which essentiallty limits the amount of calls that have to be answered to personal friends and accquaintenances who read LITG, afford it some veracity despite the Amber flag, haven't discussed the status of Hunters with Waid recently, but feel comfortable enough to ring him up first thing on Monday morning to querey this rumour (though they're obviously ignorant of Waid's overwhelming hatred of all things LITG as well).

So essentially his friends phoned him, all the more likely if he screens calls when working. Poor Mark. What a burden.

Even with the dozens of calls from his chums a simple erudite 'fuck off' from Waid (based on the fact that they read the despised LITG, are knowingly contributing to Rich's livlihood and worse still put some store in Rich's rumours despite knowing Waid's feelings on them) would have cut these distractions down to a minimum!

Waid:
"Marc has to do the same. As does Jim McLauchlin, the publisher, who already had a million plates to juggle that morning and suddenly has a million and one."
Which makes a pleasant change from Top Cow's previous modus operandi of leaving retailers and fans in the dark concerning the status of books and creators even going so far as to shut down messageboards when it's the only way fans or retailers can ask why solicited books haven't appeared after several months with no explanation from Top Cow.

Waid:
"As does Annie Pham, the lovely Top Cow marketing woman who I'm confident is far more overworked than fucking Rich Johnson and really didn't deserve to get hit in the face with a frying pan first thing Monday morning."
It's nice to see such concern for marketing from Waid who has had his own experience of providing frying pans to hit company employees with in the past, not to mention the talent who worked on Ruse with him.

Again it seems it's okay for Waid to actually create damaging shit storms for companies but despicable for Rich to flag a potential shit storm as dubious and slanted.

Waid:
"So guess what I don't get done yesterday? Script pages for my Legion artist. Why? Because I'M busy setting the record straight because Rich is at best...at BEST...being careless and thoughtless. Which means that Legion is running one day later. Which means the Legion artist may be unemployed for one day next week whether he can afford to be or not. Likewise the inker. Likewise the colorist"
What a prick.

Waid prioritised chatting on the phone about a non story that wasn't his responsibility or job to address ahead of the livlihoods of 3 other people who don't enjoy Waid's ability by virtue of his profession to work on multiple monthly books.

Waid knows that these 3 folks are depending on him to put food on their plates but prioritises indulging in some rumour control (not to mention a healthy dollop of uncensured Rich bashing to boot) which someone else is employed to manage, over his responsibility to them. There's your hurting folks and their livlihoods right there!

You're a good writer Mark and a grade A prick to the people who depend on you. Imagine how Monday would have gone without your obsessive hatred of Rich?

Put the e-mails to one side, contact Top Cow or Rich to correct the story, take 20 seconds to explain to your pals who phoned that the story is bullshit and you're against a deadline with the livlihoods of 3 other people depending on you not spending the morning on the phone and hey presto, you've lost maybe 30 mins to an hour.

Continued below

[Verity]

Waid:
"What's that? You're NOT drawing right now? Why not? Oh, because you're busy reassuring FANS AND RETAILERS. Bam, bam, bam. Watch how the dominoes fall. Who does Rich hurt when he pulls shit like this? Start counting."
On what planet does Silvestri put aside drawing to reassure fans and retailers? Presumably on a planet where press releases don't exist (seeing as how over a week on, none have been forthcoming....), Silvestri has a record of reassuring fans and retailers unlike his last Top Cow series Inferno and a planet where your account of events has some merit Mark?

Waid:
"And worst of all, next week, Rich will do it to someone else. He'll report, without any fact to back it up, that so-and-so's book is getting reassigned, casting aspersions on his professionalism or his ability--or that Artist X is a troublemaker because he said something disparaging about his employer, which would be a bad thing to do had it actually happened--or that Freelancer Y is the reason something's late when, in fact, Rich hasn't the first clue."
Rich's reporting is clearly more fair and researched than your bizarro imagined account of it here Mark. What does that say of the rest of your points?

Waid:
"And don't lie to yourself; he won't dredge this shit up because he's somehow a noble and gallant crusader for justice. He'll do it because every time Rich's column gets another hit, the cash register goes "ding" again."
If only you took your own advice Mark.

Waid:
"Meanwhile, across the ocean from Rich, some very nervous father of three, already staring down a long assignment with a short deadline, isn't able to voucher for the time he's spending on the phone with his editor trying to find out why he's received all these troubling e-mails from fans and websites claiming grimly but with concern for his welfare that CBR has it on "good authority" that the series he's been pencilling for the last four months is about to be cancelled because its star is actually the super-secret killer in IDENTITY WARS and, gee, they hope he lands on his feet. "
Hmm I may have to take back what I said about you being a good writer, I'm surprised you didn't include Tiny Tim in that scenario.

Here's a shocking fact. You Mark Waid are the only individual who it's proven has deprived folks of their livlihood as a result of Rich's piece.

You did so by prioritising your blinding therapy-demanding hatred of Rich over your professional commitment to the 3 individuals who were depending on a LSH script from you. Rich didn't force you to put the script to one side and waste time (however exaggerated your account is) doing what someone else is employed to do ahead of it.

Similarily Rich didn't force you not to put in the lost hours that evening to make up the scripting time lost indulging your Rich Johnston malice. Though it's obvious how deliberately not putting in the work that evening and blaming it on Rich could feed your hatred of Rich mantra to yourself and others to whom you blamed Rich for your descisions which affected their livlihood.

Waid:
"Rich hurts people, plain and simple. If he didn't, there wouldn't be a line around the block of otherwise kind and gentle comics creators who would eagerly beat him to death for a dollar and give you change back."
You're the only one proven to have hurt people Mark. It's telling how every pro who's attack Rich recently is a hypocrite without anything to back up their claims and have resorted to name calling and conjecture about Rich and his methodology to pass fiction off as fact. You and they could learn a lot from LITG.

Waid:
"When he prints rumors that have absolutely no foundation, as he does all too frequently, it is the wrong thing to do, and no rational person can argue against that. His inexcusable behavior serves no one but him, yet it often visits anxiety and suffering on other people solely in the name of profit and self-glorification. It is indefensible."
As opposed to your defensible lies, depriving dependants of their livlihoods, harrassing Rich out of work over the years and threats of physical violence?

You're seriously warped Mark. Get help.

Mrs McLaughlin, it's a shame that Rich's post upset the peace and tranquility of your household. Bring back the blissful silence when Top Cow ignored all queries as to why books or creators or entire lines had dissappeared after being solicited ignoring all responsibilities to it's fans and retailers. It's a shame you can't shut up private individuals who offer Top Cow a forum to repudiate rumours as easily as Top Cow used to shut up it's fans in their forums.

Perhaps given your admiration you should get together with Mark, I'm sure he has several ideas as to how to shut Rich up, most of which will appeal to the sense of humanity you found so appealing in his post. Be warned though Mark's shown that were Rich is concerned his moral duty and profesional obligations to others comes a distant second.

Verity

[Marcus Nyahoe]

I've been reading these comments with some amusement over the last couple of days. There have been some good points made, and some not so good, but what has come through LOUD AND CLEAR is that Rich Johnston has come across as much more professional and dignified in his responses than certain professional writers.

I've always enjoyed Rich's column, as have many people. I've enjoyed some of Mark Waid's comics, as have many people. I've lost a little respect for one of those parties though (not that it's improtant in the great scheme of things). However, more than anything else this discussion highlights why you should take time away before typing up responses to heated discussions on boards such as this, because like other people here), the liliehood of my buying the next Mark Waid comic has lessened because of this.

Rich Johnston may well have accidentally caused some problems, but he did rectify it (as usual) by posting a correction asap. Maybe Mr. Waid could correct the damage he has done himself by apologising to Rich, not for the anger or for giving his opinion, but for the derogotory and offensive manner in which these opions where communicated.

Thanks for listening.

[thevoice]

Mark Waid! You are a great screaming child and I come to save you from yourself. People around the internet are linking to this rediculous tantrum of yours in shock.

Let's look at what is taking place here:

Perhaps this man does, in fact, publish tripe and strive to create rumor and cause concern here or there. Then again, perhaps he doesn't.

The point is you have given him just what he wants if indeed he is out to damage your livelyhood. This infantile fit you have thrown for all the internet to see shows your ass in every possible aspect.

What are you expecting to accomplish by this thread and your responses in it other than to show us all that a great creator and brilliant writer is as intelligent and professional as any cranky 6th grader who dropped his gameboy? This display is disgraceful. Take a breather and get your head on straight.

If Rich has such great power to make and break your projects with but a printed word, and it causes you enough grief and grey hair to drive you to throw out a fecal storm like this all over the web, then perhaps it is time to consider a new line of work, or maybe therapy. Every form of entertainment, comics not excluded, is subject to rumor. This is nothing new.

What is new, and perhaps more entertaining than your books ever have been is watching you decompose all over this thread like a baby with a "boo boo" over a two bit news article. Amazing. This is my first view of who you are outside of your writing and it is quite sad.

Clearly you have been greatly upset by this man, or the press in general or maybe life itself, but I don't see any reason why you could not have approached this in a much cooler, far more articulate fashion. Surely you have the ability.

I don't read what Rich writes. I don't care what Rich writes. Either way, I have far less admiration for you based on your own performance here.

I hope this horrible war against the press works in your favor in the long run. In the mean time, you might consider a staff member at Top Cow, or wherever you personally go to work and recieve all these calls, who can field all these questions called in by all these retailers or whoever it is that soils their britches every time Rich writes an article so that you can get your work done. It might make that vein in your forehead relax a bit.

I sure hope you get to feeling better.

:evilsmile

P.S. Just for the record: If what you wanted was to gain public notice in a "Jerry Springer" type display like some dimestore Dennis Rodman, then I suppose the joke is on me. Well done. Otherwise, Pull up your pants and act like a grown up!

[the Monitor]

Cue the "pile on the creator" crowd....

The outpouring of length posts imploring everyone "to just let it go and please Mr. Waid, I love you and never read gossip, but you are looking like an ass and I mean that only in a helpful way" is hysterical.

Rich deals in gossip. Sometime gossip hurts people..because...you know....it's gossip. Sometimes when people get hurt, they lash out....because..you know..they got hurt. Rich knows this. Mark Waid has been in this business a while and knows perfectly well how he wants to conduct himself.

It's between them and if they wanna do it here so you can watch, then watch. But shut up with your smug "let's all post about how we should drop it"-isms and "Gee, Mr. Waid you sure are acting out"-speak, shall we?

[J Bill]

I think Bendis has always had a good perspective on the online fan base- it's a small percentage of the overall comic book customer market that gets way too much attention. That's a key concept that I think many people should keep in mind when they feel slighted by these rumor articles. Of the people who will be buying this new series, how many of them actually read LITG or, more importantly, whose buying habits are affected by it (either directly or indirectly)? My guess is it's a very small proportion of the aggregate demand which, again, gets focused on way too often.
I'm a fan of much of Mark Waid's work (loved Empire) and I hope he isn't offended by my comments. For the record, however, I had to laugh outloud at the posting above by 'thevoice'. It reminded me of Ferris Bueller- 'Rooney... Calm down!'
Thanks for your time.

[Charles RB]

Cue the "pile on the creator" crowd...

I dunno, cut the ruder bits out and most of what Verity said makes sense. Who was calling Waid for hours about the rumour (how many fans and retailers have his personal number? Why call him rather than Top Cow?) and why did he deal with hours worth of E-mails instead of working if it's that important to get the pages to the artist? What's going on when he says Rich didn't try to verify this with anyone, then changing tack to "you went to the wrong person" when that is who Rich was told to contact and allegedly gets death threats when contacting Waid? So on, so on.

Rich deals in gossip. Sometime gossip hurts people..because...you know....it's gossip.

True, but... literal hours worth of phones & E-mails taking away work time? For a rumour flagged as "very likely biased" at that? Who was going direct to Waid over that?

I think Bendis has always had a good perspective on the online fan base- it's a small percentage of the overall comic book customer market that gets way too much attention.

He can't say that and then go on about how damaging Rich Johnson is to the industry. If online fans are a small percentage, than Rich is reaching an even smaller percentage (since not everyone reads LITG)- how much damage could he possibly do then?

[Gail Simone]

I dunno, cut the ruder bits out and most of what Verity said makes sense. Who was calling Waid for hours about the rumour (how many fans and retailers have his personal number? Why call him rather than Top Cow?) and why did he deal with hours worth of E-mails instead of working if it's that important to get the pages to the artist? What's going on when he says Rich didn't try to verify this with anyone, then changing tack to "you went to the wrong person" when that is who Rich was told to contact and allegedly gets death threats when contacting Waid? So on, so on.



True, but... literal hours worth of phones & E-mails taking away work time? For a rumour flagged as "very likely biased" at that? Who was going direct to Waid over that?



He can't say that and then go on about how damaging Rich Johnson is to the industry. If online fans are a small percentage, than Rich is reaching an even smaller percentage (since not everyone reads LITG)- how much damage could he possibly do then?


I'm not trying to get in the middle of this shit, but I can say without a moment's hesitation that it's ABSOLUTELY possible to have to spend hours crushing weird rumors because of these kinds of posts.

Here you're talking about a book where a HUGE part of the book's selling appeal is the artist, and the number of readers and retailers who read Rich's column is enormous. You guys claiming this wouldn't have an impact are, I'm sorry, completely fooling yourselves.


I like Mark, and I like Rich, and I don't want to alienate either one.

But let's hit a couple facts here:

This book was marketed, and in fact the whole likelihood of the books' success comes from the two creators, Marc and Mark. Without either of them, the difference in sales would be gargantuan. This isn't a hypothetical loss, I assure you. This is the difference between a profitable book and an unprofitable one. It goes beyond that, to trades, licensing, and literally to whether or not people have money to pay their bills. In short, it's important. When we're working our asses off, a rumor like this can put all our efforts down the drain. Any new launch is precarious to start with, and when you can do every single thing right and still have your efforts torpedoed, it's a very emotional thing.

Second, we seem to be forgetting...the rumor is WRONG. It's UNTRUE. Here, Rich is defending the right to print something that is harmful and FALSE. Yes, he has the right to do it, yes, he has the right to defend his methods, but his methods failed everyone involved, including the readers, because the rumor is a lie.

What bugs me about this is that it's so easy to see a situation where a book could easily be functionally destroyed as an act of pure malice or sabotage.


Those of you who are saying, well, Mark's certainly exaggerating the damage clearly have not worked in this industry. Respectfully, it takes less than this to really damage a book's chances. To most of you, it's just another book. To some of the creators, it's the only thing putting food on their tables. So yes, we do take it seriously.

Just another two cents dropped in. And for the record, Rich has always played fair with me. I know that just as I know that Mark is more upset about how this affects others on the book than he is about how it affects himself.

Gail

[Charles RB]

I can say without a moment's hesitation that it's ABSOLUTELY possible to have to spend hours crushing weird rumors because of these kinds of posts.

OK, I stand corrected.

[blast_front]

Personally, I think creators need to get back to, y'know, creating and not indulging in these internet rock fights.

Plus, I think it's a little amusing that Bendis, the man who (via ignorance or neglect) allowed a "rape humor list" to crop up on his message boards, could make any judgements regarding internet ethics. To be honest, nearly every time a creator spouts off online, my respect for them (if there was any to start with) diminishes that much more. Ms. Simone, your above post is an exception.

A rumor column is just that. It's part and parcel of the entertainment marketing machine. For all the talk of bringing comics to the same level as other mass media (movies, TV, et al), some folks seem a bit queasy about the consequences that shift entails. Gossip rags have had a symbiotic relationship with film and TV for decades--and both sides of the equasion work it for all it's worth.

In the year or so I've been reading LITG, it's pointed out quite a few books that would have otherwise slipped under my radar, and steered me clear of some stinkers as well. Rich hasn't been 100 per cent on the mark, but his batting average is still better than that of folks bashing him. And it comes out on a regular schedule.

And while this may sound like bit nasty for a closing question, I assure you I'm merely curious: Is anyone actually interested in Hunter Killer ? From what I've seen so far, it looks like a holdover from the Clinton era.

[Gail Simone]

You're not being fair to Bendis, who was so upset over a 'rape humor' thread that he shut down his board entirely and had to be coaxed back. Brian is not someone who takes that stuff lightly. He's a good, good guy.

And Hunter Killer will do quite well, I bet.

The problem is, if the creator DOESN'T defend him or herself (as I had to do when the rumor spread that I was leaving Bop), then it can have a large and immediate effect on the sales.

So do we ignore it and let the book suffer, or do we clarify?

If you really care about the book and the work, and the readers, then you go ahead and defend it against false rumors.

Gail

[Charles RB]

Bendis, the man who (via ignorance or neglect) allowed a "rape humor list" to crop up on his message boards

It wasn't on his board, it was a different & smaller board where several of his board members & ex-board members lurked. Bendis reacted to the List because the women on it were also board members.

[RichJohnston]

But shut up with your smug "let's all post about how we should drop it"-isms and "Gee, Mr. Waid you sure are acting out"-speak, shall we?

Concur. .

[RichJohnston]

I'm not trying to get in the middle of this shit, but I can say without a moment's hesitation that it's ABSOLUTELY possible to have to spend hours crushing weird rumors because of these kinds of posts.

Here you're talking about a book where a HUGE part of the book's selling appeal is the artist, and the number of readers and retailers who read Rich's column is enormous. You guys claiming this wouldn't have an impact are, I'm sorry, completely fooling yourselves.


I like Mark, and I like Rich, and I don't want to alienate either one.

But let's hit a couple facts here:

This book was marketed, and in fact the whole likelihood of the books' success comes from the two creators, Marc and Mark. Without either of them, the difference in sales would be gargantuan. This isn't a hypothetical loss, I assure you. This is the difference between a profitable book and an unprofitable one. It goes beyond that, to trades, licensing, and literally to whether or not people have money to pay their bills. In short, it's important. When we're working our asses off, a rumor like this can put all our efforts down the drain. Any new launch is precarious to start with, and when you can do every single thing right and still have your efforts torpedoed, it's a very emotional thing.

Second, we seem to be forgetting...the rumor is WRONG. It's UNTRUE. Here, Rich is defending the right to print something that is harmful and FALSE. Yes, he has the right to do it, yes, he has the right to defend his methods, but his methods failed everyone involved, including the readers, because the rumor is a lie.

What bugs me about this is that it's so easy to see a situation where a book could easily be functionally destroyed as an act of pure malice or sabotage.


Those of you who are saying, well, Mark's certainly exaggerating the damage clearly have not worked in this industry. Respectfully, it takes less than this to really damage a book's chances. To most of you, it's just another book. To some of the creators, it's the only thing putting food on their tables. So yes, we do take it seriously.

Just another two cents dropped in. And for the record, Rich has always played fair with me. I know that just as I know that Mark is more upset about how this affects others on the book than he is about how it affects himself.

Gail

Before anyone starts ganging up on Gail, I'd like to say I appreciate pretty much her every word, online and off. She's an untouchable as far as I'm concerned. Her and Mark Buckingham alone, probably. I'd believe any and every word she says.

In this case the piece was up for hours and retracted. There was not one post to the very-reactive Delphi Retail forum. The current LITG leads with the cover to issue 2, credits and all. Any momentum gained has been more from this thread (and links to it).

Not a bad thing. Orders were in, and from my mailbag, looks like some people will be picking the book up just to have a look inside.

The rumour was not unfounded, and I'm pursuing a more solidified version of those founds right now, picked up when I was mere blocks from Top Cow's offices at the weekend. Should be an update in next week's LITG.

Which I'll be sending past Top Cow people a lot earlier than the weekend... there's that at least.

[RichJohnston]

The problem is, if the creator DOESN'T defend him or herself (as I had to do when the rumor spread that I was leaving Bop),
Gail
Hey, how come I never heard that?

[RichJohnston]

I'm not trying to get in the middle of this shit, but I can say without a moment's hesitation that it's ABSOLUTELY possible to have to spend hours crushing weird rumors because of these kinds of posts.


One tiny thing to add to all...

LITG can crush a rumour faster than a speeding crusher.

[blast_front]

Forgive me for responding without quoting, but I despise clutter.

I never accused Mr. Bendis of actively participating in the rape humor thread, but his reaction time in acting upon it seemed proportionate with the bad press reflecting back on him.

It was actually my wife, of all people, who got me reading his books, and my wife who first dropped them in disgust over the troll freakshow that Mr. Bendis' messageboards and letter pages have become, emboldened and encouraged by his seeming passivity. To paraphase from an article from Ninth Art: You can't invite monkeys to your house for a party and act shocked when they start flinging their s--t.

As a person who has staged and written several plays, I fully understand the urge to lash back and do productive damage control in the face of rumormongering and sniping. Accent on productive. I'm certainly not going to waste time writing rants that reveal more about my personality, than about the case I want to make. I'm certainly not going to take time out of doing rewrites and rehearsals to tell off the local theatre columnist while telling said columnist how much time its costing me. And trust me, small-scale theatre works on a much tighter overhead than comic creation through a decent-sized publisher.

And this still goes back and forth: What LITG says has a huge consequence/ What LITG says has no consequence. It can't be both ways. As for hurting sales, heck, everyone pretty much agrees a lot of the top selling comics/films/pop songs are pure crap, and yet we (the general public) still buy into them. Tickets to The Boogeyman anyone? ;)

[Matt Adler]

Cue the "pile on the creator" crowd....

The outpouring of length posts imploring everyone "to just let it go and please Mr. Waid, I love you and never read gossip, but you are looking like an ass and I mean that only in a helpful way" is hysterical.

Rich deals in gossip. Sometime gossip hurts people..because...you know....it's gossip. Sometimes when people get hurt, they lash out....because..you know..they got hurt. Rich knows this. Mark Waid has been in this business a while and knows perfectly well how he wants to conduct himself.

It's between them and if they wanna do it here so you can watch, then watch. But shut up with your smug "let's all post about how we should drop it"-isms and "Gee, Mr. Waid you sure are acting out"-speak, shall we?
Um, if a creator is behaving badly, are the rules somehow different for them, that they should be immune from people calling them on it?

[Charles RB]

I never accused Mr. Bendis of actively participating in the rape humor thread, but his reaction time in acting upon it seemed proportionate with the bad press reflecting back on him.

It's a few months back, but I'm pretty sure the big outcry came out at about the same time he shut his board down i.e. when the news came out.

Tickets to The Boogeyman anyone? ;)

Nah, I've got enough toilet paper.

[blast_front]

Um, if a creator is behaving badly, are the rules somehow different for them, that they should be immune from people calling them on it?

See, this is my problem with how creators lay things out on the net.

From the self-contradicting self-promotion machine that is Millarworld, to John Byrne's "I'm running on fumes, so I'll make a choir to preach to", to Mark Waid's responses here--it all detracts from the the good work they are doing and have done. (I've said my bit on Bendis, so I'll avoid treading over that ground again.) While Byrne's work on Fantastic Four and West Coast Avengers still holds a special place in my heart, it is impossible to reread those comics these days and disassociate the work from the seamier aspects of the man. Some readers can do it, and more power to them, but a lot can't and won't. The same applies to all media. Look at Fahrenheit 911, and how the film gets dismissed because Michael Moore is a grandstanding buffoon, yet the film's message is conveyed most strongly in the scenes where Moore stands back and lets the clip tell the story (Condi Rice testifying before the 9/11 Commission, for example).

As a writer, is this what you want? Your personality and personal reputation bleeding through and obscuring your hard work? If you feel the need to defend your project from false info, fine. (Even though LITG is a gossip column....with color coding to determine how many grains of salt--a better deal than celebrity gossip columns give their subjects.) But put a little thought into how you are going to present yourself to the world in your response. As it stands now, Kingdom Come has become "that book written by the guy who sort of threw a hissy fit on the CBR forums". In contrast, Birds of Prey is "the book written by the even-tempered, reasonable woman". And as a comic book "consumer" that's how I'll describe those books to my peers.

[the Monitor]

Um, if a creator is behaving badly, are the rules somehow different for them, that they should be immune from people calling them on it?

Not at all. The vast majority of the "calling them on it" going on here is smug and hypocritical and it is that point I address.

[Bright-Raven]

Did Mark Waid go overboard? Some would say yes. Others would say he didn't go nearly far enough. But obviously he was and is extremely upset about this matter and not without fair reason to be.

Would any of the people involved with HUNTER - KILLER going to Rich and explaining things have stopped whatever calls or emails Mark or the others received? Eventually, yes. But Mark (and everyone else involved in the project) would still have a junked up inbox to sort through, and you cannot just delete emails about such a subject and hope everyone goes back to LITG to find out things. Doing so would be inconsiderate to friends who are concerned for your well being and makes you out to be far more of an ass in the eyes of those people, and THOSE people are those who DO matter to you. You can't afford to blow them off. To do so risks not only personal friendships, but potentially business relations with people. So in fact you have do have hours of damage control just to k