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View Full Version : Non-Super powered Avengers: What do they specialize in?



Will.S
06-19-2012, 07:09 PM
There are times where on certain Avengers rosters there's a degree of overlap with regards to having similar abilities and such. This jumped out at me the most during Secret Avengers when Moon Knight and Black Widow were on the same team and I wondered to myself: "Okay so if Black Widow's specialty is stealth and is pretty well versed in firearms and close quarters combat, what does Moon Knight bring to the table?". I could never quite figure out what he's particularly great at besides maybe being crazy, I mean he has a lot of weapons and he's obviously skilled in hand to hand combat but he's hard to peg. Is he more of a weapons specialist? Is he better than say Black Widow or Mockingbird at going undercover? What's his specialty?

Also if you have say Black Widow and Mockingbird on the same team who are both super spies are they interchangeable during a mission or do they have other areas where they differ that makes them stand apart from each other?

I'm omitting Captain America because for one his talents are pretty well known and two he usually tends to operate on a different level from the other non-super powered Avengers but I'm mainly going to list these particular "normal" non-powered Avengers who just rely own their own skill sets and training.

Black Widow
Mockingbird
Bucky Barnes
Black Panther (currently)
Hawkeye
Moon Knight
Black Knight
Swordsman
Shang-Chi
Hellcat
Daredevil

So in a team setting what would you say are their areas of expertise, what other skills do they add, and what are the best uses of them during missions?

XPac
06-19-2012, 07:28 PM
There are times where on certain Avengers rosters there's a degree of overlap with regards to having similar abilities and such. This jumped out at me the most during Secret Avengers when Moon Knight and Black Widow were on the same team and I wondered to myself: "Okay so if Black Widow's specialty is stealth and is pretty well versed in firearms and close quarters combat, what does Moon Knight bring to the table?". I could never quite figure out what he's particularly great at besides maybe being crazy, I mean he has a lot of weapons and he's obviously skilled in hand to hand combat but he's hard to peg. Is he more of a weapons specialist? Is he better than say Black Widow or Mockingbird at going undercover? What's his specialty?

Also if you have say Black Widow and Mockingbird on the same team who are both super spies are they interchangeable during a mission or do they have other areas where they differ that makes them stand apart from each other?

I'm omitting Captain America because for one his talents are pretty well known and two he usually tends to operate on a different level from the other non-super powered Avengers but I'm mainly going to list these particular "normal" non-powered Avengers who just rely own their own skill sets and training.

Black Widow
Mockingbird
Black Panther (currently)
Hawkeye
Moon Knight
Black Knight
Swordsman
Shang-Chi
Hellcat
Daredevil

So in a team setting what would you say are their areas of expertise, what other skills do they add, and what are the best uses of them during missions?

Several of them have science backgrounds... Mockingbird, BLack Panther, and Black Knight specifically. So if there's no Iron Man or Pym around (those are typically the Avengers go-to guys), these guys can step up.

Several of them also are capable field leaders when you need one in a pinch. Black Widow, Black Panther, Hawkeye, and perhaps to a lesser degree Black Knight. Daredevil can probably do it too. In addition to being a good field leader, Clint was pretty good at training a team to fight.

Several are also military or super spies. Black Widow, Mockingbird, and Moon Knight. That brings a few added things in addition to basic h2h fighting skills.

infernohara
06-19-2012, 07:33 PM
interesting thread to say the least. I've thought about this as well for a bit, but with Secret Avengers.....your answer is kinda already there. Sure there are multiple spies on the team, but they split off into different subteams. You kinda need 2-4 different spies in the field. Like I'm sure Mockingbird could seduce like any other character could, but if you had a choice in having one of your female spies seduces a big rig arms dealer, who would you go with?

Lady_Alternate
06-19-2012, 07:36 PM
Bobbi was a scientist first, a SHIELD agent second. She covers a lot of bases, but recently only McCann has shown her doing that.

Regards your initial question - Secret is a covert team. Bringing just one person skilled in a particular area isn't great planning, but more than anything else, what Moon Knight brought to Secret was a willingness to get the job done and save the world, regardless of personal cost.

XPac
06-19-2012, 07:42 PM
Bobbi was a scientist first, a SHIELD agent second. She covers a lot of bases, but recently only McCann has shown her doing that.

Regards your initial question - Secret is a covert team. Bringing just one person skilled in a particular area isn't great planning, but more than anything else, what Moon Knight brought to Secret was a willingness to get the job done and save the world, regardless of personal cost.

Even in West Coast Avengers, I don't recall Mocks science background coming into play too often, if ever. But I guess that's what happens when you've got a Tony Stark and a Hank Pym on the roster.

Lady_Alternate
06-19-2012, 07:46 PM
Even in West Coast Avengers, I don't recall Mocks science background coming into play too often, if ever. But I guess that's what happens when you've got a Tony Stark and a Hank Pym on the roster.

There's a handful of instances where she acts as a person to bounce ideas off but that's it.

dbcb314
06-19-2012, 07:55 PM
T'challa currently is still Peak Human, even without the blessing of the Panther God. This was confirmed in MWF when he fought Vlad. So I am not sure he belongs (nor am I sure DD does).

And doesn't Mockingbird now have a version fo the Infinity Formula/Super Soldier formula?

Will.S
06-19-2012, 07:56 PM
Several of them have science backgrounds... Mockingbird, BLack Panther, and Black Knight specifically. So if there's no Iron Man or Pym around (those are typically the Avengers go-to guys), these guys can step up.

Several of them also are capable field leaders when you need one in a pinch. Black Widow, Black Panther, Hawkeye, and perhaps to a lesser degree Black Knight. Daredevil can probably do it too. In addition to being a good field leader, Clint was pretty good at training a team to fight.

Several are also military or super spies. Black Widow, Mockingbird, and Moon Knight. That brings a few added things in addition to basic h2h fighting skills.
They're all certainly disciplined in various areas as we've seen over the years.

Hawkeye is pretty easy since he's primarily a ranged character so his specialty is far away targets and accuracy but he's also more multi-faceted than he gets credit for such with his leadership ability, experience with various weapons (swords, bo staff, nunchucks), and his hand-to-hand combat ability. I think he can easily transition into a stealth type of character pretty easily given his weapon of choice so he can be sort of a team sniper if the situation calls for it.

However there's more overlap when you have say Hellcat and Moon Knight or Mockingbird and Black Widow on the same team so it's harder to separate their skill sets so as an example: Mockingbird is a super spy but at the same time so is Black Widow so what situation would make Mockingbird more ideal than Black Widow if you're going to send one of them on a stealth mission? What does Mockingbird do better than Black Widow and vice versa if applicable?

XPac
06-19-2012, 08:05 PM
They're all certainly disciplined in various areas as we've seen over the years.

Hawkeye is pretty easy since he's primarily a ranged character so his specialty is far away targets and accuracy but he's also more multi-faceted than he gets credit for such with his leadership ability, experience with various weapons (swords, bo staff, nunchucks), and his hand-to-hand combat ability. I think he can easily transition into a stealth type of character pretty easily given his weapon of choice so he can be sort of a team sniper if the situation calls for it.

However there's more overlap when you have say Hellcat and Moon Knight or Mockingbird and Black Widow on the same team so it's harder to separate their skill sets so as an example: Mockingbird is a super spy but at the same time so is Black Widow so what situation would make Mockingbird more ideal than Black Widow if you're going to send one of them on a stealth mission? What does Mockingbird do better than Black Widow and vice versa if applicable?

Aside from the fact that Mockbird has super human stats these days, there's her scientific background. That's something widow doesn't bring. I think she's got a bit of experience with disguises and such too.

People like Black Widow and Moon Knight are also more willing to kill people... as ugly as it sounds, in certain scenarios that's an asset.

Jabare
06-19-2012, 08:12 PM
There are times where on certain Avengers rosters there's a degree of overlap with regards to having similar abilities and such. This jumped out at me the most during Secret Avengers when Moon Knight and Black Widow were on the same team and I wondered to myself: "Okay so if Black Widow's specialty is stealth and is pretty well versed in firearms and close quarters combat, what does Moon Knight bring to the table?". I could never quite figure out what he's particularly great at besides maybe being crazy, I mean he has a lot of weapons and he's obviously skilled in hand to hand combat but he's hard to peg. Is he more of a weapons specialist? Is he better than say Black Widow or Mockingbird at going undercover? What's his specialty?

Also if you have say Black Widow and Mockingbird on the same team who are both super spies are they interchangeable during a mission or do they have other areas where they differ that makes them stand apart from each other?

I'm omitting Captain America because for one his talents are pretty well known and two he usually tends to operate on a different level from the other non-super powered Avengers but I'm mainly going to list these particular "normal" non-powered Avengers who just rely own their own skill sets and training.

Black Widow
Mockingbird
Black Panther (currently)
Hawkeye
Moon Knight
Black Knight
Swordsman
Shang-Chi
Hellcat
Daredevil

So in a team setting what would you say are their areas of expertise, what other skills do they add, and what are the best uses of them during missions?

well they are all great h2h fighters, but aside from that



Black Widow- stealth, espionage
Mockingbird- ?????
Black Panther (currently)- genius level intellect, stealth, he is a king so has a nations worth of resources at his disposal
Hawkeye- ranged projectiles (archery)
Moon Knight- well this dude use to be rich, and have powers. He's kind of crazy I guess that is something
Black Knight- He's got a sword
Swordsman- Also has a sword
Shang-Chi- just martial arts
Hellcat- ??????
Daredevil- enhanced senses. He is a lawyer, so he is well versed in American Law

Will.S
06-19-2012, 08:17 PM
interesting thread to say the least. I've thought about this as well for a bit, but with Secret Avengers.....your answer is kinda already there. Sure there are multiple spies on the team, but they split off into different subteams. You kinda need 2-4 different spies in the field. Like I'm sure Mockingbird could seduce like any other character could, but if you had a choice in having one of your female spies seduces a big rig arms dealer, who would you go with?


Bobbi was a scientist first, a SHIELD agent second. She covers a lot of bases, but recently only McCann has shown her doing that.

Regards your initial question - Secret is a covert team. Bringing just one person skilled in a particular area isn't great planning, but more than anything else, what Moon Knight brought to Secret was a willingness to get the job done and save the world, regardless of personal cost.
You guys make good points with regards to Secret Avengers having more than just one spy person since you'd need a nice wide spread of covert operatives in an espionage style mission.

But is the willingness to get the job done and save the world really exclusive to Moon Knight? During Moon Knight's run as a West Coast Avenger, did he really bring in anything unique to the team in the way that Hawkeye did as the long range archery or Pym's super science? During the time Clint and Bobbi were on the New Avengers did Bobbi really set herself apart enough to say that "Yeah the team definitely needed usage of her skills"? And while I like Daredevil's inclusion as a New Avengers I haven't quite seen a situation in which he helped the team in a capacity that Iron Fist or Wolverine don't already unless say they were all blinded in a dark room or something.

BTW also added Bucky to the list.

Monty_Cristo
06-19-2012, 08:18 PM
However there's more overlap when you have say Hellcat and Moon Knight or Mockingbird and Black Widow on the same team so it's harder to separate their skill sets so as an example: Mockingbird is a super spy but at the same time so is Black Widow so what situation would make Mockingbird more ideal than Black Widow if you're going to send one of them on a stealth mission? What does Mockingbird do better than Black Widow and vice versa if applicable?

Moon Knight's a dude. he can't do what Natasha does, as a spy. Bobbi is who you want to send in when the threat is, for instance, some kind of biological terror device or bomb in need of disarming. she's more confident when it involves the sciences. but she's probably not as great at interrogation or subterfuge as Natasha. plus Bobbi works better with a small team of operatives. Natasha's a solo act.

Monty_Cristo
06-19-2012, 08:20 PM
You guys make good points with regards to Secret Avengers having more than just one spy person since you'd need a nice wide spread of covert operatives in an espionage style mission.

But is the willingness to get the job done and save the world really exclusive to Moon Knight?

i can't answer that. but i'm not sure that it's necessary in this instance. Moon Knight was a secret avenger because Steve Rogers was offering him a clean start. he happened to have a useful skillset. but that's not why he was brought onboard. and Steve cut him loose once it became clear that a fresh start wasn't going to work.

mikekerrIII
06-19-2012, 08:22 PM
Regards your initial question - Secret is a covert team. Bringing just one person skilled in a particular area isn't great planning, but more than anything else, what Moon Knight brought to Secret was a willingness to get the job done and save the world, regardless of personal cost. there are reasons they don't let the insane on special ops teams, Moon Knight is just about as likely to get things wrong as he is to get them right.

XPac
06-19-2012, 08:27 PM
You guys make good points with regards to Secret Avengers having more than just one spy person since you'd need a nice wide spread of covert operatives in an espionage style mission.

But is the willingness to get the job done and save the world really exclusive to Moon Knight? During Moon Knight's run as a West Coast Avenger, did he really bring in anything unique to the team in the way that Hawkeye did as the long range archery or Pym's super science? During the time Clint and Bobbi were on the New Avengers did Bobbi really set herself apart enough to say that "Yeah the team definitely needed usage of her skills"? And while I like Daredevil's inclusion as a New Avengers I haven't quite seen a situation in which he helped the team in a capacity that Iron Fist or Wolverine don't already unless say they were all blinded in a dark room or something.

BTW also added Bucky to the list.

During West Coast Avengers, Moon Knight actually ended up bring a lot. The funny thing about him was anytime he was knocked unconscious, Khonshu would pop out. And that ended up being handy on a few occasions (against Kristoff and Phantom Rider).

As far as BuckyCap goes... in the New Avengers I did think he sort of tried instilling a bit more structure and discipline in the New Avengers. During battles he'd often shoot out orders and try to organize them a bit... I think the rest kind of ignored him though.

Daredevil in New Avengers actually did show a bit of leadership against Osborn if I recall correctly. DD, though a loner, I think is a capable field leader if one is needed. Atypically the New Avengers sort of operate with a fairly lose command structure... leadership is up for grabs to whoever wants to take it since most of them frankly don't want it.

Will.S
06-19-2012, 08:39 PM
Moon Knight's a dude. he can't do what Natasha does, as a spy. Bobbi is who you want to send in when the threat is, for instance, some kind of biological terror device or bomb in need of disarming. she's more confident when it involves the sciences. but she's probably not as great at interrogation or subterfuge as Natasha. plus Bobbi works better with a small team of operatives. Natasha's a solo act.
I'd agree in saying that those particular situations for Bobbi and Natasha work more to their advantages (Bobbi's good to use when AIM/Monica Rappaccini launches a bio-terrorist attack) but the lines kind of blur at certain points. Bobbi and Natasha seem almost equal in the areas of subterfuge but I'll grant you that Natasha's better at the interrogation stuff and both work in their element better on their own as opposed to teams.


i can't answer that. but i'm not sure that it's necessary in this instance. Moon Knight was a secret avenger because Steve Rogers was offering him a clean start. he happened to have a useful skillset. but that's not why he was brought onboard. and Steve cut him loose once it became clear that a fresh start wasn't going to work.
For archetypal purposes Moon Knight works as the loose canon or Murdock from A-Team and the redemption angle still works but outside of that his skill set doesn't really veer into any sort of specialization which often has me wondering what his place in the Avengers is unless he's that one guy they absolutely needed for the completion of a mission.

Push You Down
06-19-2012, 09:32 PM
How on EARTH is Daredevil considered non-powered?

The rest of this list is also suspect.

Nomads1
06-20-2012, 06:26 AM
Black Widow
Mockingbird
Bucky Barnes
Black Panther (currently)
Hawkeye
Moon Knight
Black Knight
Swordsman
Shang-Chi
Hellcat
Daredevil


Not sure that I'd consider all of these guys "non-powered". I mean, Hawkeye was Goliath, plus his arrows and Swordsman's gimmicked sword makes them almost as versitile as Iron Man. Take off the armour, and isn't Tony as non-powered as them? Or Quasar without his bands? The Black Knight's mistic weapons make him quite powerful also. His Ebony Sword used to easily take tanks apart and he laid ZEUS flat on his ass once. His Sword of Light and Shield of Night were also a pretty powerful combo. Daredevil senses also make him superior to any human fighter. Moon Knight used to be empowered by Khonshu, which made him vaguely super-human. Bucky Barnes bionic arm give him a modicum of super-strength. Mockingbird now has undifined pysical attributes. Hellcat's costume mystically enhanced her abilities. Even the Panther is slightly more than peak human. Of those listed above, only Shang-Chi and the Widow are "completly non-powered", and she does have something unexplianed that keeps her from aging. Sure, placed side-by-side with guys like Thor, Wonder Man and Sersi, these heroes do seem to pale in comparission, but they are not exacly "non-powered".

Peace

IronMagnus
06-20-2012, 06:38 AM
And doesn't Mockingbird now have a version fo the Infinity Formula/Super Soldier formula?

Yes. She's gone from a non-superpowered character who largely gets ignored in the Avengers, to a superpowered character who largely gets ignored in the Avengers. Way to go, Bobbi!

Lady_Alternate
06-20-2012, 06:38 AM
But is the willingness to get the job done and save the world really exclusive to Moon Knight?

It was a subtle way of saying that he is willing to severely beat someone in order to get results (whereas many others would balk at the idea) - however, now that I've said it... oh. He's already posted. Oh well.

As for what does Bobbi bring that Natasha doesn't then the simple answer is that...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widowmaker_(Marvel_Comics)

...all the answers are in there. Although one of the key differences is something that Bobbi doesn't bring, that Natasha does - baggage.

Brandon McKinnis
06-20-2012, 06:40 AM
T'challa currently is still Peak Human, even without the blessing of the Panther God. This was confirmed in MWF when he fought Vlad. So I am not sure he belongs (nor am I sure DD does).

And doesn't Mockingbird now have a version fo the Infinity Formula/Super Soldier formula?

Both of these are correct.

Beamish
06-20-2012, 07:42 AM
Hellcat has some type of magical detection skills that really haven't been developed or explored to their full extent. She has also employed a mystical force field that protects her from mystical attacks. She gained these after she was "rescued from hell" by the Thunderbolts. She also had some pretty crazy psionic bursts that Moondragon "turned off". As far as the costume enhancing her fighting ability, that's been debated for years. Not a skill really, but Patsy brings humor to the table, like Spidey does.

Vic Vega
06-20-2012, 08:01 AM
Moon Knight's a dude. he can't do what Natasha does, as a spy. Bobbi is who you want to send in when the threat is, for instance, some kind of biological terror device or bomb in need of disarming. she's more confident when it involves the sciences. but she's probably not as great at interrogation or subterfuge as Natasha. plus Bobbi works better with a small team of operatives. Natasha's a solo act.

Moon Knight worked under Crossfire when they were both in the CIA. So he has experience with( and resistance to) brainwashing(and specifically CrossFire's) techniques.

He's basically the rubber hose guy.

The Avengers don't really use him in that manner, but that is what differentiates him from Nat skill set wise.

Moriarty
06-20-2012, 03:36 PM
Black Widow
Mockingbird
Bucky Barnes
Black Panther (currently)
Hawkeye
Moon Knight
Black Knight
Swordsman
Shang-Chi
Hellcat
Daredevil

So in a team setting what would you say are their areas of expertise, what other skills do they add, and what are the best uses of them during missions?

depends on which Swordsman you are talking about. the first Swordsman had fighting skills on par with Hawkeye at the very least (he trained Hawkeye). also, his sword can shoot laser beams.

Black Knight has a high fighting skill level. this is a guy who spent several years in the 12th century going on crusades. he also has a science background and quite a lot of experience with magic.

Hellcat once had mystical/psychic abilities and sensitivity to magic. not sure if she still has those skills.