Winter Soldier #5 *Spoilers*

[Abdulabulbul_Amir]

-Dimitri preps Doom's nukes for launch
-Doom and Fury talk smack to each other.
-Doom builds a teleporter that take him, Buck and Tasha to the Missile Silo in the Latverian Alps.
-Doom Vs. armed Gorillas. Nuff said.
-Bucky wounds Red Ghost.
-Doom tears LVB's synthetic face off. Natasha is a bit horrified.
-Bucky fights Dimitri, tries to talk some sense into him, but it is no use. Bucky kills him with a thrown knife, that Dimitri never tried to dodge.
-Fury makes a deal with Doom. Dismantle the nukes and it'll stay out of the news. Doom also agrees to keep schtum about Bucky being alive.
-Fury reveals that Dimitri had defied orders and that the launch codes were never set. Fury wonders why. Bucky might know, but isn't talking.
-Natasha tips off Bucky to Red Barbarian's whereabouts. He's living out his retirement in the Bahamas. Bucky snipes him from a tree top.
-Sitwell interogates LVB about the third Winter Soldier, Leo, "the enigma", as Bucky described him. She answers that he was gone before she ever got there. He could be anywhere.

I think I need to go back and read this arc in one go. But it is a nice ending for the first arc. Looking forward to Leo's debut and the next arc.

[Oni Squirrel]

I definitely feel like I need to re-read the arc as a whole. That said this issue had some cool moments and managed to offer a good ending to a fun first arc for me.

[Hrist]

Was that supposed to be Bucky? I think it was, too, but shooting someone in cold blood like that is a new thing for him, and something he might have sied away from previously.

[rogerio]

I think I need to go back and read this arc in one go. But it is a nice ending for the first arc. Looking forward to Leo's debut and the next arc.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/images/solicits/marvelcomics/201208/WS2012009_cov-.jpg
Maybe it's him...:confused:

[Abdulabulbul_Amir]

Was that supposed to be Bucky? I think it was, too, but shooting someone in cold blood like that is a new thing for him, and something he might have sied away from previously.

Yeah, it was pretty cold.

Also, according to the Marvel wiki, Red Barbarian is another of Natasha's exes. Fancy that.

[Abdulabulbul_Amir]

http://www.comicbookresources.com/images/solicits/marvelcomics/201208/WS2012009_cov-.jpg
Maybe it's him...:confused:

I bet it is. He could also be the one who sniped Red Barbarian.

[Hrist]

Yeah, it was pretty cold.

Also, according to the Marvel wiki, Red Barbarian is another of Natasha's exes. Fancy that.

Then the Marvel wiki is lying/wrong. Red Barbarian showed up in Tales of Suspense before Natasha's introduction, was in limbo for decades, showed up in Gulag, that's all. It's a huuuuge stretch to say he and Natasha were involved from that, no?

[Abdulabulbul_Amir]

Then the Marvel wiki is lying/wrong. Red Barbarian showed up in Tales of Suspense before Natasha's introduction, was in limbo for decades, showed up in Gulag, that's all. It's a huuuuge stretch to say he and Natasha were involved from that, no?

Hmm. There appears to be two pages for the character. One for Red Barbarian, and another for Andre Rostov (http://marvel.wikia.com/Andre_Rostov_%28Earth-616%29). Don't know if Brubaker amalgamated the two or it's one of those instances where a half-remembered name crops up in a writer's mind as an original one.
Or maybe coincidence. Garth Ennis had a Soviet General called Aleksander Lukin in one of his Battlefield books.

There was also a very similarly named Russian mercenary based in Madripoor.

[Godlike13]

This book is awesome :cool:. Art seemed a little different, but still good. Thought this was a solid finish to this first arc, and can't wait to see what come next with the 3rd Zephyr.

[Hrist]

Oh, that guy. I think they are different— I've read that issue of Two-in-One and he's not treated as the Red Barbarian from Tales of Suspense at all. Plus, Rostov was introduced as a Black Widow villain, he has a personal beef with her, you'd think that would have come up, especially since Natasha was investigating him and we saw those scenes from her PoV.

[samson3191]

Doom got badmouthed from Bucky and Fury in this, lol. Awesome.

So Dmitri didn't dodge the knife at all, and didn't set the launch codes. So he wanted to die, given all the lies he was told and realizing he was just a weapon that was being lied to? It seemed like maybe he was slowly coming back to his senses, like how Bucky had moments of clarity when he was brainwashed as the Winter Soldier. Maybe this third sleeper agent from Project Zephyr is off on his own and coming back to his senses, too?

Anyway, this book rocks. Awesome artwork and writing. Gonna have to read it all in one sitting, like everyone else was saying.

[Prince Of Orphans]

Gotta love Bucky mouthing off to Doom haha.

Perfect finish to the arc, great stuff. Doom fighting gorillas were worth the price alone. Can't wait to find out more about the third sleeper.


Was that supposed to be Bucky? I think it was, too, but shooting someone in cold blood like that is a new thing for him, and something he might have sied away from previously.

That's definitely Bucky at the end there. Glad to see Brubaker not shy away from the gruesome nature of Bucky's ops work. Absolutely loved that scene. Showed us a darker side I really enjoy reading.

[Hrist]

That's definitely Bucky at the end there. Glad to see Brubaker not shy away from the gruesome nature of Bucky's ops work. Absolutely loved that scene. Showed us a darker side I really enjoy reading.

But it's not really part of Bucky's ops work— and I read it as Bucky doing the shooting, but I guess it could have been the third sleeper— it's him hunting a man down and killing him for revenge, not a necessary evil to protect people, or a mission. It's not something he would have done, previously, while he was Captain America. (He was kind of shocked Namor killed Chin, and voiced some uneasiness.) One of the themes Brubaker's explored has been that wearing the flag actually makes you better. Steve drifted into more morally ambiguous territory without it, and being Captain America was an important factor in Bucky's drive to redeem himself.

Obviously even now Bucky isn't an emotionless robot killer, he's not happy about killing the two other sleepers and reacts negatively to Doom's callousness. He's still fundamentally driven by guilt and remorse. But I guess, are we meant to see Bucky killing this guy as a side effect of him cutting himself off from the world, dealing only with terrorists, basically, and inevitably sinking to their level, a bit? Or is it just that he really hates Red Barbarian? You could make the argument that he'd always have killed Lukin if he got the chance, too.

[rogerio]

Cannot wait to see Lark drawing the next arc...
:smile:http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lud04uR6Y41qf4h86o1_r2_500.png
93436

[Moriarty]

really enjoyed this arc. Doom and Fury picking at one another was great. and the sniper at the end...yeah, i assumed it was Bucky.

[Prince Of Orphans]

But it's not really part of Bucky's ops work— and I read it as Bucky doing the shooting, but I guess it could have been the third sleeper— it's him hunting a man down and killing him for revenge, not a necessary evil to protect people, or a mission. It's not something he would have done, previously, while he was Captain America. (He was kind of shocked Namor killed Chin, and voiced some uneasiness.) One of the themes Brubaker's explored has been that wearing the flag actually makes you better. Steve drifted into more morally ambiguous territory without it, and being Captain America was an important factor in Bucky's drive to redeem himself.

Obviously even now Bucky isn't an emotionless robot killer, he's not happy about killing the two other sleepers and reacts negatively to Doom's callousness. He's still fundamentally driven by guilt and remorse. But I guess, are we meant to see Bucky killing this guy as a side effect of him cutting himself off from the world, dealing only with terrorists, basically, and inevitably sinking to their level, a bit? Or is it just that he really hates Red Barbarian? You could make the argument that he'd always have killed Lukin if he got the chance, too.

I think he's reluctant to kill the sleepers because he knows how being mind controlled works, and deep down he knows it isn't their fault as well as a part of him thinking they could be saved.

As far as him killing Red Barbarian, I can understand why Bucky would want him dead so bad. I doubt Bucky could live with himself knowing that guy got off free and is living a life of luxury after destroying so many people's lives. I liked it, it showed another layer to him, shows that he is still "flawed" in a way. He may not have done it as Cap but that's because he was representing something much bigger. Bucky isn't Cap anymore, he's Bucky, and I think that scene was partially done to enforce that.

[Hrist]

I think he's reluctant to kill the sleepers because he knows how being mind controlled works, and deep down he knows it isn't their fault as well as a part of him thinking they could be saved.

As far as him killing Red Barbarian, I can understand why Bucky would want him dead so bad. I doubt Bucky could live with himself knowing that guy got off free and is living a life of luxury after destroying so many people's lives. I liked it, it showed another layer to him, shows that he is still "flawed" in a way. He may not have done it as Cap but that's because he was representing something much bigger. Bucky isn't Cap anymore, he's Bucky, and I think that scene was partially done to enforce that.

Sure, he obviously sees a bit of himself in the other sleeper agents he trained. He feels responsible for their actions, and wishes, I bet, that he could bring them to redemption because that would mean there is hope for him, too. But, I don't think that's all of it, I think Bucky generally feels not the greatest about killing. He still has terrible Steranko montage flashback WW2 dreams, remember. Obviously I'm not suggesting he sobs at having to kill a terrorist— Bucky's made peace with what he did and what he continues to do because it's necessary to protect innocent lives, but consistently the work he does exacts a psychological toll.

This is the first time we've seen him kill someone without the immediate justification of necessity. He does have a bit of a fuse to him and he can really go overboard (that time he basically blew up a concentration camp), but this isn't framed as rage. I mean, Bucky definitely has reasons for wanting Red Barbarian dead, both because of the torture and the Gulag, but also because as I've said, Bucky feels personally responsible for the whole shebang, and probably sees it as his duty to clear up all the loose ends, that guy included. I am just wondering if we're supposed to understand this as a one-time thing or we're seeing a shift in his M.O., or if it's a sign of his surroundings getting to him, a bit— or some combination of all three. It's a set of themes I'm gonna be watching out for next arc.

But I think it's interesting that you say "he isn't Cap anymore, he's Bucky" because Winter Soldier is a much more contentious identity for him! He didn't choose to be the Winter Soldier, and Winter Soldier doesn't flat-out equal Bucky. However, he's taken up the mantle again in his own power, as a way of owning his sins, of taking responsibility. But I think inhabiting that space can't have completely positive effects on him, especially since he's cut himself off from most of the support network he used to have. That's gotta mess with his head a bit, and it might drive him to things he wouldn't do normally. But on the flipside, becoming an unrepentant killer is exactly his worst nightmare, represented by his brainwashed actions as Winter Soldier. He's caught in a tragic paradox where the only way he can fight his past life is the skills his past life taught him.

[Iron Maiden]

really enjoyed this arc. Doom and Fury picking at one another was great. and the sniper at the end...yeah, i assumed it was Bucky.

Now see, I thought it was the third sleeper but I guess we will find out.


When Doom and Fury were verbally sniping at each other, I was hoping that Brubaker would have Doom bring up how he had Fury chasing a fake Yellow Claw in a game with the Prime Mover back in Steranko's run when Fury was a fledgling director of SHIELD. Wonder if he ever found out it was Doom behind it all?

I guess we can sort of place where this is all happening in relation with Hickman's FF since they mention Kristoff as being in charge of Latveria still. But is it before Doom joined the Future Foundation?

[Prof. Warren]

A great end to the first arc. Brubaker's dialogue for Doom was especially good but characterizations were rock solid across the board. I definitely think that it was Bucky who offed Red Barbarian at the end. A cold act for Bucky, yes, but I don't think he could've lived with the Barbarian getting off scott free. I don't think it means we'll see Bucky committing such acts on a regular basis but it shows that he has no qualms about doing whatever he feels needs to be done.

[Abdulabulbul_Amir]

I don't know. Surely there was some Bucky could've apprehended him and handed him over to Fury.

Hell, it could have been a whole arc.

On a different note, I was going to mention this before but didn't for some reason; would Doom really accept getting told to shut up twice by Bucky? I don't know much about Doom.

[Volderon]

This is the only Marvel title I get, (I've tried xmen and avengers the past few months but never got into it) I'm more of a DC guy but I find myself getting batman and supermaned out, ridiculous amounts of batman titles, long story arcs that take a year to finish etc, so I was looking for a change and saw this was covert black ops stuff and bought all 5 issues yesterday and wow, this is my new favourite title. Plus the 2.99 price tag is really nice instead of 3.99.

[crossbones]

i feel this first arc wasn't as strong as it could have been. Doom was the best part, but isn't his appearance here a little conflicting with what's currently going on in FF?

i hope Bru steps up his game with the next arc.

[rogerio]

Great first arc but the inconsistent artwork is starting to bother me.:mad:

[Iron Maiden]

I don't know. Surely there was some Bucky could've apprehended him and handed him over to Fury.

Hell, it could have been a whole arc.

On a different note, I was going to mention this before but didn't for some reason; would Doom really accept getting told to shut up twice by Bucky? I don't know much about Doom.

Yeah, he was surprisingly charitable but then maybe this was still the brain-damaged Doom.


i feel this first arc wasn't as strong as it could have been. Doom was the best part, but isn't his appearance here a little conflicting with what's currently going on in FF?

i hope Bru steps up his game with the next arc.

As for the timeline in regards to Doom's appearance, I'd agree that's pretty murky considering he should be off planet in the ruins of the Council of Reeds HQ with an Infinity Gauntlet in his possession. That's why I am wondering if this takes place earlier, before he got his brain rebooted. But then he was able to repurpose Reed's transporter gizmos.

[Hrist]

Great first arc but the inconsistent artwork is starting to bother me.:mad:

I think they handled the multiple inker thing better than during some of the Captain America run, but I wonder how much lead-in time Guice really needs to do a five issue arc. Lark is gonna do a long arc, will that give Guice the lead-in time he needs?

[Prince Of Orphans]

This is the first time we've seen him kill someone without the immediate justification of necessity. He does have a bit of a fuse to him and he can really go overboard (that time he basically blew up a concentration camp), but this isn't framed as rage. I mean, Bucky definitely has reasons for wanting Red Barbarian dead, both because of the torture and the Gulag, but also because as I've said, Bucky feels personally responsible for the whole shebang, and probably sees it as his duty to clear up all the loose ends, that guy included. I am just wondering if we're supposed to understand this as a one-time thing or we're seeing a shift in his M.O., or if it's a sign of his surroundings getting to him, a bit— or some combination of all three. It's a set of themes I'm gonna be watching out for next arc.

But I think it's interesting that you say "he isn't Cap anymore, he's Bucky" because Winter Soldier is a much more contentious identity for him! He didn't choose to be the Winter Soldier, and Winter Soldier doesn't flat-out equal Bucky. However, he's taken up the mantle again in his own power, as a way of owning his sins, of taking responsibility. But I think inhabiting that space can't have completely positive effects on him, especially since he's cut himself off from most of the support network he used to have. That's gotta mess with his head a bit, and it might drive him to things he wouldn't do normally. But on the flipside, becoming an unrepentant killer is exactly his worst nightmare, represented by his brainwashed actions as Winter Soldier. He's caught in a tragic paradox where the only way he can fight his past life is the skills his past life taught him.

I definitely think it's the direction Brubaker is meaning to take him in. A way to continue his inner struggle, or to come to terms with his place in the Marvel Universe maybe? Guess we'll see. It's something I'll watch out for. It definitely seemed like he embraced his dark side a bit with that scene, but i loved it and what it may mean for the character later on. Bucky and Winter Soldier may be two separate identities, but Bucky may need some time differentiating them for now.



On a different note, I was going to mention this before but didn't for some reason; would Doom really accept getting told to shut up twice by Bucky? I don't know much about Doom.

I just wrote it off as Doom not acknowledging Bucky's authority by dignifying it with a response.

[Hrist]

I just wrote it off as Doom not acknowledging Bucky's authority by dignifying it with a response.

Yeah, Doom was subtly insulting everyone in addition to not subtly insulting them. Calling Bucky "boy", calling Fury "Mister", calling Natasha "Miss". But Doom does have his streak of nobility and his rare charitable appearance. I have no idea where this arc takes place wrt Doom's timeline, it just needs to be after Fear Itself, and honestly it's probably not much after. (It's before Clint gets the Secret Avengers, I'm fairly sure.)

[aNamored]

Was that supposed to be Bucky? I think it was, too, but shooting someone in cold blood like that is a new thing for him, and something he might have sied away from previously.

I caught up digitally = glad I did. My frustration with the slow start and muddy art paid off. As far as Bucky shooting someone in cold blood, I don't think that's so unusual given his pre, during or post Winter Soldier history. I actually liked that, he felt a lot more dangerous to me: it read like the assassin he was trained to be.

I guess I was a little lost since I know next to zip about Doom, Red Ghost and the cyborg prime minister, but I'll stick around.

[KurtW95]

It's so nice seeing the real Nick Fury for a change.

[Codah]

i feel this first arc wasn't as strong as it could have been. Doom was the best part, but isn't his appearance here a little conflicting with what's currently going on in FF?

i hope Bru steps up his game with the next arc.

I don't mean to single you out or bash you but I'm really sick of people saying this. It doesn't matter. You fit things into continuity if it really bothers you, but it doesn't have to line up all the time. Telling a story is far more important than slaving over continuity issues.

Also, I can't believe I forgot to comment on this thread. This first arc was AMAZING. Bucky is Brubaker. He shines so hard writing this character. Can't wait for 2nd arc and really can't wait for Lark. I love Brubaker's artists.

[Bookem Danno]

i feel this first arc wasn't as strong as it could have been. Doom was the best part, but isn't his appearance here a little conflicting with what's currently going on in FF?

i hope Bru steps up his game with the next arc.


Great first arc but the inconsistent artwork is starting to bother me.:mad:


Yeah, he was surprisingly charitable but then maybe this was still the brain-damaged Doom.

As for the timeline in regards to Doom's appearance, I'd agree that's pretty murky

These all were my reactions in general too. It was surprising how squeamish Widow was from Doom merely ripping out the robotic eye of Bardas. What I did like is the otherwise un-616 take on the difficulty of teleportation via tech. I totally think it was Bucky who killed RB but either way they better reveal is ASAP or else what is the point of developing the title character's personality if the reader isn't told what he is doing/thinking.

[Prince Of Orphans]

It's so nice seeing the real Nick Fury for a change.

Seconded.


I totally think it was Bucky who killed RB but either way they better reveal is ASAP or else what is the point of developing the title character's personality if the reader isn't told what he is doing/thinking.

Personally, I thought it was pretty clear that it was Bucky who fired the shot. It led up to it and everything. Buck gets a bit of intel that the reader isn't told about and then it shows his internal monologue where Red Barbie gets shot. I'm not sure where the disconnect is :S

[Darth Tigris]

Cannot wait to see Lark drawing the next arc...
:smile:
93436

Lark??? REALLY??!!! Awesome! One of the most underrated artist in the biz on a book that is PERFECT for his style. And he'll probably even draw BW's hair like it's not the 1970's, Mr. Guice ...


It's so nice seeing the real Nick Fury for a change.

Oh get over yourself. He's been in so many places in Marvel books this year that this isn't even an issue. Jr.'s only shown up in one book. This is just comic fandom at it's worst right here ...


A great end to the first arc. Brubaker's dialogue for Doom was especially good but characterizations were rock solid across the board. I definitely think that it was Bucky who offed Red Barbarian at the end. A cold act for Bucky, yes, but I don't think he could've lived with the Barbarian getting off scott free. I don't think it means we'll see Bucky committing such acts on a regular basis but it shows that he has no qualms about doing whatever he feels needs to be done.

Maybe I'm alone, but Doom is just feeling more and more like a parody character to me and he REALLY did in this. I mean ... when confronted with apes with machine guns, he actually said "Finally ... challenge worthy of Von Doom!" A lot of writers are in on the joke and Bru definitely seems to be here. Outside of a handful of stories, Doom's characterizations have been comic book writing at it's most cringeworthy.

[Hrist]

Personally, I thought it was pretty clear that it was Bucky who fired the shot. It led up to it and everything. Buck gets a bit of intel that the reader isn't told about and then it shows his internal monologue where Red Barbie gets shot. I'm not sure where the disconnect is :S

Well, the intel could be that they found Red Barbie's body in the Caribbean somewhere. The fact that it's juxtaposed with the reveal that the third sleeper agent is unaccounted for and could be anywhere and the sniper's features are a bit obscure (not wearing the Bucky's domino mask) is, I think, contributing to the confusion.

We did get to see what Bucky was thinking, though, and I'm sure if it was the other dude that will be cleared up pretty quickly next issue. I'm not going to count "ending on a cliffhanger" as a strike against the book's character development. (Maybe the storytelling is a bit muddy on those two pages.)

[Bookem Danno]

Maybe I'm alone, but Doom is just feeling more and more like a parody character to me and he REALLY did in this. I mean ... when confronted with apes with machine guns, he actually said "Finally ... challenge worthy of Von Doom!"

That line did bug me a bit as did him letting the "2nd smartest" insult go by. I suppose he had to brag about something since the overall battle threat was underwhelming and he did come back with a few insults mentioned, in this thread, of his own even though he knew Fury meant Reed.

[Iron Maiden]

I don't know if it is so much that it is a parody. It's just that Doom is such a larger than life character in the MU and it wouldn't surprise me if that's the way Doom likes to play it. It may even be a bit of a performance on his part. He must be aware of it because his Doombots are programmed with those personality traits.

[Prince Of Orphans]

We did get to see what Bucky was thinking, though, and I'm sure if it was the other dude that will be cleared up pretty quickly next issue. I'm not going to count "ending on a cliffhanger" as a strike against the book's character development. (Maybe the storytelling is a bit muddy on those two pages.)

I guess it is a bit muddy. Maybe ending on that note instead of the moment with von Bardas would've made it more clear it was Bucky.

[Iron Maiden]

I guess it is a bit muddy. Maybe ending on that note instead of the moment with von Bardas would've made it more clear it was Bucky.

Like Hrist pointed out, the lack of the mask casts some doubt on it. Plus the face being obscured in the bushes made it less obvious who it was since they had found out from Lucia that the third sleeper was missing.

[Prince Of Orphans]

Like Hrist pointed out, the lack of the mask casts some doubt on it. Plus the face being obscured in the bushes made it less obvious who it was since they had found out from Lucia that the third sleeper was missing.

The strands of hair we see match up to Bucky's haricut, and the colour of the eyes and the general direction of the narrative as well as the internal monologue all suggest to me that it was clearly Bucky, but I do understand the confusion now. I'm trying my best to convince everyone lol

I'm entertaining the possibility that Sitwell may have passed intel to Bucky on the actual assassination and not the location of Red Barbie. But then I'm not sure if that's actually "intel". If it were the third agent that killed Red Barbie, why would von Bardas tell Sitwell he could be anywhere, especially since something like the assassination of Red Barbie, which Sitwell would know about, would throw up a red flag?

[Abdulabulbul_Amir]

The strands of hair we see match up to Bucky's haricut, and the colour of the eyes and the general direction of the narrative as well as the internal monologue all suggest to me that it was clearly Bucky, but I do understand the confusion now. I'm trying my best to convince everyone lol

I'm entertaining the possibility that Sitwell may have passed intel to Bucky on the actual assassination and not the location of Red Barbie. But then I'm not sure if that's actually "intel". If it were the third agent that killed Red Barbie, why would von Bardas tell Sitwell he could be anywhere, especially since something like the assassination of Red Barbie, which Sitwell would know about, would throw up a red flag?
Going by the sequence, Sitwell could have learned of Red Barbie's assassination before debriefing Bardas.
Could be that moment when she tells him Leo is in the wind that he puts 2 and 2 together and realizes that whoever killed Barbie is the missing sleeper.

[Hrist]

Going by the sequence, Sitwell could have learned of Red Barbie's assassination before debriefing Bardas.
Could be that moment when she tells him Leo is in the wind that he puts 2 and 2 together and realizes that whoever killed Barbie is the missing sleeper.

Yeah, Sitwell gets the intel about Red Barbie before Bardas wakes up and tells him the third sleeper is in the wind. That's pretty explicit from the scene where Natasha tells Bucky— they said she's going to be ready for questioning soon.

[jackolover]

Sure, he obviously sees a bit of himself in the other sleeper agents he trained. He feels responsible for their actions, and wishes, I bet, that he could bring them to redemption because that would mean there is hope for him, too. But, I don't think that's all of it, I think Bucky generally feels not the greatest about killing. He still has terrible Steranko montage flashback WW2 dreams, remember. Obviously I'm not suggesting he sobs at having to kill a terrorist— Bucky's made peace with what he did and what he continues to do because it's necessary to protect innocent lives, but consistently the work he does exacts a psychological toll.

This is the first time we've seen him kill someone without the immediate justification of necessity. He does have a bit of a fuse to him and he can really go overboard (that time he basically blew up a concentration camp), but this isn't framed as rage. I mean, Bucky definitely has reasons for wanting Red Barbarian dead, both because of the torture and the Gulag, but also because as I've said, Bucky feels personally responsible for the whole shebang, and probably sees it as his duty to clear up all the loose ends, that guy included. I am just wondering if we're supposed to understand this as a one-time thing or we're seeing a shift in his M.O., or if it's a sign of his surroundings getting to him, a bit— or some combination of all three. It's a set of themes I'm gonna be watching out for next arc.

But I think it's interesting that you say "he isn't Cap anymore, he's Bucky" because Winter Soldier is a much more contentious identity for him! He didn't choose to be the Winter Soldier, and Winter Soldier doesn't flat-out equal Bucky. However, he's taken up the mantle again in his own power, as a way of owning his sins, of taking responsibility. But I think inhabiting that space can't have completely positive effects on him, especially since he's cut himself off from most of the support network he used to have. That's gotta mess with his head a bit, and it might drive him to things he wouldn't do normally. But on the flipside, becoming an unrepentant killer is exactly his worst nightmare, represented by his brainwashed actions as Winter Soldier. He's caught in a tragic paradox where the only way he can fight his past life is the skills his past life taught him.

Remember that House O M story, of Winter Soldier trying to kill Wanda, and Wanda kills Bucky? It was a post-Event publication, but it showed that Bucky was willing to kill people, powered people, in a world more powerful than himself. Then there was that dream of Caps where the Winter Soldier is impaled on a stake in that Apocalypse, where Bucky was obviously out of his depth? (It sort of is the reason Bucky isn't in the AvX Event right now, because Bucky would be dead very quickly). Bucky now lives in a world of much more power in heroes than he was used too in WW11 - we saw this in that Event recently between the Avengers and the time shifted Invaders, where Bucky met himself from WW11.

I think Winter Soldier is like "Crossfire", who recently died in the books. Bucky takes that spot as a shooter, and assassin to those that need it. But he's basically just some guy with killing talent, who by nature has to stick to the shadows or he'll die a nasty death very early. But like Crossfire, Winter Soldier is vulnerable to attacks. James's only redeeming quality in that regard, is his versatility, his contacts with SHIELD and the Avengers, and his search for redemption. I think that will keep him safe. (Although Fear Itself did destroy Bucky/Cap, but that was because James was pushing himself into a role that didn't suit him, and he didn't believe in, at the time). Bucky has his own identity; not the one he takes on to make the world a better place like Superman. Bucky oscillates between the ideal of justice, and the dirty, seamy, side of the espionage. Eventually he will become an agent of SHIELD because he fits into that world, with Maria Hill and Victoria Hand (and Marcus Fury, eventually).

[jackolover]

What is interesting is that Doom offed Evil Nathaniel Richards in the FF recently, so Doom and Winter Soldier have a lot in common, and makes this arc fit with the characters, more than would normally be apparent. Winter Soldiers conversations with a Doom who has a preponderance to kill, himself, does show that James and Victor are cut from the same fabric, although made into different suits.

[Prince Of Orphans]

Going by the sequence, Sitwell could have learned of Red Barbie's assassination before debriefing Bardas.
Could be that moment when she tells him Leo is in the wind that he puts 2 and 2 together and realizes that whoever killed Barbie is the missing sleeper.


Yeah, Sitwell gets the intel about Red Barbie before Bardas wakes up and tells him the third sleeper is in the wind. That's pretty explicit from the scene where Natasha tells Bucky— they said she's going to be ready for questioning soon.

I'm still not sure about that guys. I mean, I see where you're coming from and it does have a degree of merit, but I just don't think that's it. It's too overthought. I would think Brubaker would go for something more straightforward.

I just really think that the intel was simply the location of Red Barbie and he wanted it passed over to Bucky. Maybe Bucky went off the grid, did his own thing, or maybe Sitwell implied he wanted him dead and did a sort of "look away" regarding it, which could be why he got Natasha to give him the message instead.

[the goddamn batman]

it's really too bad Marvel's shipping policy(?) has decided art is entirely unimportant.
it's really too bad the insanely talented folks making this comic have decided to agree.

#1 was one of the best looking comics I've seen in a long time.
#5 was... the same comic...? the same people...? what...?

[Hrist]

I'm still not sure about that guys. I mean, I see where you're coming from and it does have a degree of merit, but I just don't think that's it. It's too overthought. I would think Brubaker would go for something more straightforward.

I just really think that the intel was simply the location of Red Barbie and he wanted it passed over to Bucky. Maybe Bucky went off the grid, did his own thing, or maybe Sitwell implied he wanted him dead and did a sort of "look away" regarding it, which could be why he got Natasha to give him the message instead.

See, I'm explaining where the ambiguity in the scene came from, and saying that the text is pretty explicit that Sitwell doesn't know the third sleeper is running around free when he gives Natasha the intel about the Red Barbarian. If Brubaker wanted to be straightforward, he could have actually shown exactly what the intel was and left it to the imagination. But I'm not trying to convince you or anyone that the sniper wasn't Bucky, I'm explaining where the confusion is coming from because you asked. I think the way Guice lays out his panels is imminently stylish and contributes a lot to the tone of the book, but it is occasionally difficult to follow. And that's what happened here, we see an appropriately mysterious spooky sniper figure that could easily be Bucky but doesn't have any of the specific visual cues (roboarm, eyemask, WS outfit) that readers are trained to recognize specifically as Bucky. If they'd angled that panel slightly differently, ~all would be revealed~ but they didn't and that happens with comics all the time.

I mean, it's clear that you really want the sniper to have been Bucky. I'm not sure which way I like the story better. Hell, maybe it's a deliberate ambiguity, maybe we're supposed to debate it.

I think, even if we were meant to understand Bucky killed Red Barbarian, that the ambiguity is just an accident/misunderstanding, that his inner monologue is so dissociated from the act is a deliberate choice, and worth commenting on. He's not saying, "I couldn't let this man live, after what he had done." He's saying, "I guess for some people… it falls apart sooner than others." The inability to escape one's past is a huuuuge theme in Brubaker's Captain America work, and that's how that whole monologue is framed. Red Barbarian thinks he can use his money to buy escape from the murky world of espionage, and then the murky world of espionage catches up with him. It's not even that a sniper killed him, it's that his past did. Which is interesting because Bucky's fundamental struggle is navigating his tortured relationship with his own past— and by that logic Bucky is just as doomed as Red Barbarian, in a way. :|a

I read the House of M stuff with Bucky and it struck me as pretty out of character. But it was an AU, so, that was sort of the point. I don't think Bucky's limited to the world of espionage and I think it's a mistake to stick him just in that slot. He's got superheroic tendencies, deep down— his basic M.O. is charging into fights way too big for him and blowing himself up to save the world. I don't think the tragedy of Bucky-as-Captain-America is that he was all wrong for the mantle but tried anyway. The tragedy is that he was right for it, but his Terrible Dark Past keeps him from being the hero he could be. Word got out that he was this communist assassin and so no one would let him be Captain America anymore, despite doing a good job and convincing the hero community he was a worthy successor. And now, obviously, he has to return to this shadow world because the shadow world won't let him operate in the bright colorful one. "No Escape", right? But there's an internal tension there, and a drive to do superhero type stuff, that's just not present in characters like Maria Hill or Nick Fury. And if you wipe out that tension you undercut a lot of what makes his character interesting. Bucky's playing at being James Bond now, but he still wants to save these sleeper guys, not kill them. He has to use the tools of a past he doesn't want to confront the past he doesn't want, but his need to confront that past is kinda his heroic duty. He pretty much said he couldn't have been called Captain America if he didn't take responsibility for all this stuff that's not his fault.

[jackolover]

I read the House of M stuff with Bucky and it struck me as pretty out of character. But it was an AU, so, that was sort of the point. I don't think Bucky's limited to the world of espionage and I think it's a mistake to stick him just in that slot. He's got superheroic tendencies, deep down— his basic M.O. is charging into fights way too big for him and blowing himself up to save the world. I don't think the tragedy of Bucky-as-Captain-America is that he was all wrong for the mantle but tried anyway. The tragedy is that he was right for it, but his Terrible Dark Past keeps him from being the hero he could be. Word got out that he was this communist assassin and so no one would let him be Captain America anymore, despite doing a good job and convincing the hero community he was a worthy successor. And now, obviously, he has to return to this shadow world because the shadow world won't let him operate in the bright colorful one. "No Escape", right? But there's an internal tension there, and a drive to do superhero type stuff, that's just not present in characters like Maria Hill or Nick Fury. And if you wipe out that tension you undercut a lot of what makes his character interesting. Bucky's playing at being James Bond now, but he still wants to save these sleeper guys, not kill them. He has to use the tools of a past he doesn't want to confront the past he doesn't want, but his need to confront that past is kinda his heroic duty. He pretty much said he couldn't have been called Captain America if he didn't take responsibility for all this stuff that's not his fault.

But isn't it great that Brubaker took a character from 1940, and made him into this 2005 version that nobody knew, and Bru had to fill out the body of this kid that became a man in a suspended animation tank, and put him in a place that saw super humans as a threat to humanity. James Barnes stepped out of that tank, and Brubaker put a grey uniform on him, gave him a cybernetic arm, and tried to put a heroic personality into something we have never seen before. This is not that happy go lucky kid in the Simon and Kirby books of the forties. This is reality, and it's growing up in a world where Bucky was a bad guy, yet as Steve Rogers tells us, it is the very thing James hates that he he became. It's like Bucky was in a dream world of death, killing, and espionage, he would never have dreamed for himself. I wonder why he hasn't gone on a rampage to clean out the whole Russian counter Intelligence community for doing this too him? Instead, we get this expose' on a man who isn't vindictive, and knows about the reality of manipulation, and has a maturity to deal with this guilt he feels for himself despite what his past was like. I like that James is going on this journey, and that he can find a place for himself even though he has the guilt of his past. We all have to go through it, and settle in our minds what we've become and be happy what we are. It's just that we get to share in that journey with James Barnes, the American hero, who has a stint at being an American enemy, and now wants to fit into his country as a model citizen again. It's sort of like a religious reawakening from a period of chaos, to a period of stability and contentment.

There are a lot of facets to Bucky's psychology : His training as a commando, his work with the Invaders, his stint as the legendary Winter Soldier, and finally his use as the American Hero Captain America, the very opposite of his previous career. James is tussling with killer, protector, fighter and redeemer. He may again try to be the guy who kills Wanda Maximoff when the time comes around. In another Civil War, Maria Hill and James Barnes may be the only ones in a position to take care of business for government that can't trust super powers anymore, so I see him as trying to fix things when they go wrong. What I liked about his encounter with Doom was that James was comfortable with talking to Victor on the same level as with Namor. They are both (Doom and Namor) older than Bucky, in years of experience, but Bucky had a way of talking with them that related something familiar to them both - Bucky has an authority that calms them both down that I haven't seem in any other character. Spider-Man would just bring out the aggressive side of both Doom and Namor, but Bucky? He has a way of getting passed the bullsh** and not thinking he is any better than they are. In fact, Bucky puts himself in Doom and Namors category, of anti-hero, where there is nothing judgmental. If anybody could be put into a tri-partite with Doom and Namor it is Bucky. As a world view person, Bucky transcends the good and evil that the super heroes tend to work under. Bucky has to be this overlord that sees with eyes devoid of the government and the super heroes, much like Doom and Namor and Fury. Unlike Captain America, that has a role as the super human overseer, who has to control and lead their pursuits, Bucky doesn't have that conviction to put himself in their perfect world of always being right. I like where Bucky finds himself, not as self-assured as to think he can act with the conviction of self-sacrifice being the sole reason for his righteousness, because Winter Soldier is always hanging over his head. But Bucky is the guy who knows the reality of what could go wrong in your life, but you still have to come out of it trying to do what is right, and what is right for one team isn't going to the same for another.

[Hrist]

Oh yeah, I totally agree. He isn't that plucky kid we see in flashbacks, and to some degree we understand now that he never was. But I think his whole character is vastly more interesting because of that plucky kid we see in flashbacks.

[tabo61]

really enjoyed this arc. Doom and Fury picking at one another was great. and the sniper at the end...yeah, i assumed it was Bucky. I enjoyed Fury and Doom arguing also.

[Prince Of Orphans]

See, I'm explaining where the ambiguity in the scene came from, and saying that the text is pretty explicit that Sitwell doesn't know the third sleeper is running around free when he gives Natasha the intel about the Red Barbarian. If Brubaker wanted to be straightforward, he could have actually shown exactly what the intel was and left it to the imagination. But I'm not trying to convince you or anyone that the sniper wasn't Bucky, I'm explaining where the confusion is coming from because you asked. I think the way Guice lays out his panels is imminently stylish and contributes a lot to the tone of the book, but it is occasionally difficult to follow. And that's what happened here, we see an appropriately mysterious spooky sniper figure that could easily be Bucky but doesn't have any of the specific visual cues (roboarm, eyemask, WS outfit) that readers are trained to recognize specifically as Bucky. If they'd angled that panel slightly differently, ~all would be revealed~ but they didn't and that happens with comics all the time.

I mean, it's clear that you really want the sniper to have been Bucky. I'm not sure which way I like the story better. Hell, maybe it's a deliberate ambiguity, maybe we're supposed to debate it.

I think, even if we were meant to understand Bucky killed Red Barbarian, that the ambiguity is just an accident/misunderstanding, that his inner monologue is so dissociated from the act is a deliberate choice, and worth commenting on. He's not saying, "I couldn't let this man live, after what he had done." He's saying, "I guess for some people… it falls apart sooner than others." The inability to escape one's past is a huuuuge theme in Brubaker's Captain America work, and that's how that whole monologue is framed. Red Barbarian thinks he can use his money to buy escape from the murky world of espionage, and then the murky world of espionage catches up with him. It's not even that a sniper killed him, it's that his past did. Which is interesting because Bucky's fundamental struggle is navigating his tortured relationship with his own past— and by that logic Bucky is just as doomed as Red Barbarian, in a way. :|a

I read the House of M stuff with Bucky and it struck me as pretty out of character. But it was an AU, so, that was sort of the point. I don't think Bucky's limited to the world of espionage and I think it's a mistake to stick him just in that slot. He's got superheroic tendencies, deep down— his basic M.O. is charging into fights way too big for him and blowing himself up to save the world. I don't think the tragedy of Bucky-as-Captain-America is that he was all wrong for the mantle but tried anyway. The tragedy is that he was right for it, but his Terrible Dark Past keeps him from being the hero he could be. Word got out that he was this communist assassin and so no one would let him be Captain America anymore, despite doing a good job and convincing the hero community he was a worthy successor. And now, obviously, he has to return to this shadow world because the shadow world won't let him operate in the bright colorful one. "No Escape", right? But there's an internal tension there, and a drive to do superhero type stuff, that's just not present in characters like Maria Hill or Nick Fury. And if you wipe out that tension you undercut a lot of what makes his character interesting. Bucky's playing at being James Bond now, but he still wants to save these sleeper guys, not kill them. He has to use the tools of a past he doesn't want to confront the past he doesn't want, but his need to confront that past is kinda his heroic duty. He pretty much said he couldn't have been called Captain America if he didn't take responsibility for all this stuff that's not his fault.

I am less wanting it to be Bucky than I am thinking it really is Bucky. I guess in a way i do want it, just to add another layer of complexity to his story, but if it turns out not to be him, then at least it progresses the plotline of the third Zephyr agent. I'm otherwise agreed with pretty much everything else you said.

As for the ambiguity, I just didn't think Guice needed to specify. I thought it obvious, but it's understandable why others think otherwise too, and they could be right. I just thought the dialogue leading up to it was meant to lead to Bucky's moment, at least it seemed that way to me.

[Hrist]

I am less wanting it to be Bucky than I am thinking it really is Bucky. I guess in a way i do want it, just to add another layer of complexity to his story, but if it turns out not to be him, then at least it progresses the plotline of the third Zephyr agent. I'm otherwise agreed with pretty much everything else you said.

As for the ambiguity, I just didn't think Guice needed to specify. I thought it obvious, but it's understandable why others think otherwise too, and they could be right. I just thought the dialogue leading up to it was meant to lead to Bucky's moment, at least it seemed that way to me.

Yeeaaah, it's— I think it probably was Bucky, but it's rare that I feel even a little doubtful about the intent/execution of Brubaker's Captain America stuff. This was a time I was a bit unsure. Part of that is also because I don't see it as an obvious thing for Bucky to do. Believable, maybe, but he hasn't been straight-up sniping people since he got unbrainwashed, he was clearly conflicted about killing the second sleeper agent and moping about that the scene immediately before, and cold blooded killing is still a Big Deal in cape comics. Sooo, for it to be addressed as a downbeat made me pause, rewind, and reconsider. Maybe that was the intended effect :|a

[jackolover]

Oh yeah, I totally agree. He isn't that plucky kid we see in flashbacks, and to some degree we understand now that he never was. But I think his whole character is vastly more interesting because of that plucky kid we see in flashbacks.

Yes. The transition from the kid to what we have now is holding our interest. You couldn't call Bucky/kid innocent by any stretch, but he hadn't made the transition to manhood yet, just the violence part. Somewhere down the line, Bru turned the protege of Captain America into our Winter Soldier. I just wonder how far Bru wants to take the Winter Soldier concept into Bucky Barnes? Does Bru want James to be this brooding legacy of WW11 forever?

[Prince Of Orphans]

Yeeaaah, it's— I think it probably was Bucky, but it's rare that I feel even a little doubtful about the intent/execution of Brubaker's Captain America stuff. This was a time I was a bit unsure. Part of that is also because I don't see it as an obvious thing for Bucky to do. Believable, maybe, but he hasn't been straight-up sniping people since he got unbrainwashed, he was clearly conflicted about killing the second sleeper agent and moping about that the scene immediately before, and cold blooded killing is still a Big Deal in cape comics. Sooo, for it to be addressed as a downbeat made me pause, rewind, and reconsider. Maybe that was the intended effect :|a

I can understand that.

[Runguy]

I didn't check to see if this was mentioned earlier in this thread, but if it wasn't Bucky shooting the Red Barbarian might it have been the third sleeper agent?

[Oni Squirrel]

I didn't check to see if this was mentioned earlier in this thread, but if it wasn't Bucky shooting the Red Barbarian might it have been the third sleeper agent?

That's the assumption. The panel with the sniper really makes it feel more ambiguous. Based on the narrative it fits that it could be Bucky, but the sniper lacks any of his defining features and actually looks different from how Bucky is drawn in the book from what little can be seen at least for me.

[Prince Of Orphans]

That's the assumption. The panel with the sniper really makes it feel more ambiguous. Based on the narrative it fits that it could be Bucky, but the sniper lacks any of his defining features and actually looks different from how Bucky is drawn in the book from what little can be seen at least for me.

Eye colour (despite brown being common) and hair colour (despite brown being common again lol) hair style (from the little we see) match up. And to be fair, Guice does go back and forth a but with how he draws Bucky.

[Hrist]

Eye colour (despite brown being common) and hair colour (despite brown being common again lol) hair style (from the little we see) match up. And to be fair, Guice does go back and forth a but with how he draws Bucky.

Not to mention, multiple inkers on the issue. But from the solicits it looks like the third sleeper could easily have brown hair and brown eyes and a similar hairstyle. (If that guy in the solicits is the third sleeper agent which maybe he's not!)

[Prince Of Orphans]

Not to mention, multiple inkers on the issue. But from the solicits it looks like the third sleeper could easily have brown hair and brown eyes and a similar hairstyle. (If that guy in the solicits is the third sleeper agent which maybe he's not!)

Maybe, but if it is the third sleeper, his hairstyle is an outdated mullet, meaning the strands of hair we see in this issue wouldn't match. Although interior art and the cover tend to differ.

[Hrist]

Maybe, but if it is the third sleeper, his hairstyle is an outdated mullet, meaning the strands of hair we see in this issue wouldn't match. Although interior art and the cover tend to differ.

It's slicked back like Carol D.'s. :cool:

[Prince Of Orphans]

It's slicked back like Carol D.'s. :cool:

haha I think I'm gonna call the third Zephyr "Mullethead" until I remember his name. And even then I might just still continue.