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View Full Version : Does Constantine even make sense as a team leader?



The Animal Man
05-03-2012, 03:01 AM
i know Lemire said he plans to make John Constantine Leader of justice league dark but the guy's not really a people person he constantly tells everyone to go to hell and threatens them everyday if they so much as look at him the wrong way

i only see him jerking around the team constantly just because he's the leader and they have to do as he says....it's gonna take awhile for them to accept a guy who wanted them to go die while he stayed within a protective circle

Prisoner 6655321
05-03-2012, 03:20 AM
Yeah, it does to me. John's really pretty experienced and knowledgeable. Since we're talking about a slightly different John than pre and post vertigo it's hard to say exactly what he's done / knows but even in his first appearances in Swamp Thing he was leading people around. Heck, he showed up more or less out of no where kinda lightly threatened Abby Arcane / Cable lead Swamp Thing around a bit, teaching him lessons about magic and Swamp Thing's true nature. He's known Zatanna for ever and lead the circle where Zatara died. John really knows what he's doing and is probably the most experienced / knowledgeable occultist other than those who represent cosmic beings or are effectively immortal and for the most part he's probably up there with most of those type folks in that regard. That said, why folks might not want to follow him anywhere is that he has the bad habit of broken lives and dead friends. If it seems like John's a jerk, he kinda is but it's mostly because of all the terrible stuff he's been through and that people often go through just for associating with him.

golgi
05-03-2012, 03:25 AM
If John is close to his Vertigo self, he would be the most dangerous man in the DCU and in comics in general. He's a master at prep and the only being I can see surpassing him is Lucifer Morningstar. Even Batgod or Dr. Doom can't surpass John, IMO. He would be a decent leader, but MVP in the team, because of his knowledge.

The Animal Man
05-03-2012, 03:29 AM
it just is gonna seem really weird for him to be against working as a team and then bam! he's now ordering everyone to do different tasks and objectives....The first storyline in JLD Didn't do anything but make everyone else look stupid while Constantine was the only one who knew how to solve the problem which had a simple answer....i really have no idea what the hell was going on during that whole storyline....just seemed like a poor way for Constantine to become the hero

golgi
05-03-2012, 03:32 AM
Constantine is smarter than everyone.

Prisoner 6655321
05-03-2012, 03:40 AM
It’s all pretty much in character for Constantine. Two things are important to remember (or learn) about his character. Firstly, he’s smart; in some ways he’s like the occult version of Mr.Fantastic in that he can outthink cosmic beings and even Hell itself. Secondly, he’s a bit of a bad luck charm. Most anyone he’s gotten close to has met a terrible end and as such he’s not exceptionally outgoing and when he was asked to join a team his reasoning for not saying yes was probably because he‘d assume that those on said team would wind up dead and some how damned for all eternity fairly quickly at that for his being there.

The Animal Man
05-03-2012, 03:57 AM
Constantine is smarter than everyone.

Or Maybe Everyone else is written like morons.....

Prisoner 6655321
05-03-2012, 04:22 AM
Or Maybe Everyone else is written like morons.....

Maybe? I didn't think so but it's certainly your prerogative to think so. Regardless, in matters of occult John should generally be both the smartest guy in the room.

The Animal Man
05-03-2012, 04:24 AM
Maybe? I didn't think so but it's certainly your prerogative to think so. Regardless, in matters of occult John should generally be both the smartest guy in the room.

I'm Sorry it's not that i don't think John's A Skilled And Experienced person when it comes to the occult but you can't deny that the first storyline in JLD made everyone else seem like total idiots

Prisoner 6655321
05-03-2012, 05:15 AM
Maybe but I think that if it seemed that way it was largely because Milligan was trying to show character flaws. John knows what he’s doing but he’s kinda a jerk albeit a jerk with fairly good intentions. Xanadu is essentially immortal and thus more than a bit removed from humanity. Deadman isn’t an idiot but he’s more heroic than smart. Shade has a slippery grasp on his sanity. Zatanna is a competent enough lady but she’s far from the “greatest” at anything, her biggest strength is her Justice League connections.

The Animal Man
05-03-2012, 08:12 AM
and that wasn't the right way to go about it....the title's justice league dark and you never got a sense of anything really happening

FanboyStranger
05-03-2012, 08:18 AM
Constantine is smarter than everyone.
I wouldn't say that John is smarter than everyone, especially in terms of knowledge, but he knows people and how to manipulate them better than anyone else in the DCU. One of the hallmarks of being a great con artist is that ability to read people and situations in a split second, and no one does that better than John. That doesn't necessarily make John a good leader, but I think his tendency to see the big picture and make the choices that others lack the stomach to make suggest that he's the right guy to lead the JL:D.

BeastieRunner
05-03-2012, 11:16 AM
John can only lead if they plan on killing off 90% of his team as fodder for his plans.

El Sombrero
05-03-2012, 11:48 AM
i know Lemire said he plans to make John Constantine Leader of justice league dark but the guy's not really a people person he constantly tells everyone to go to hell and threatens them everyday if they so much as look at him the wrong way

i only see him jerking around the team constantly just because he's the leader and they have to do as he says....it's gonna take awhile for them to accept a guy who wanted them to go die while he stayed within a protective circle

I think that's certainly the point; Constantine is the leader because he's such a bad people-person and that creates conflict and makes things interesting.

I am looking forward to Lemire's start on JLD. Milligan wrote good characters but plot-wise it was going nowhere. I think Lemire will do a good enough job with the characters and have significantly better plots that will keep the title more relevant in the larger DCU.

golgi
05-03-2012, 12:39 PM
I wouldn't say that John is smarter than everyone, especially in terms of knowledge, but he knows people and how to manipulate them better than anyone else in the DCU. One of the hallmarks of being a great con artist is that ability to read people and situations in a split second, and no one does that better than John. That doesn't necessarily make John a good leader, but I think his tendency to see the big picture and make the choices that others lack the stomach to make suggest that he's the right guy to lead the JL:D.


I meant mainly in terms of magic. He basically is.

Oni Squirrel
05-03-2012, 01:59 PM
I'm Sorry it's not that i don't think John's A Skilled And Experienced person when it comes to the occult but you can't deny that the first storyline in JLD made everyone else seem like total idiots

I didn't really take that away. Zatanna and Deadman approached the story from the normal superhero perspective. Zatanna tried to take down the big bad. Deadman tried to protect the damsel in distress. Xanadu was thinking of how to use the current problem to find solutions for future one's. Shade was busy trying to hold himself together and assemble a team.

I think what Milligan was trying to show was that magical threats can't be handled by superheroes with strict moral rules. Constantine saved the day only because he did something that most superheroes wouldn't agree to do.

EDIT: I think that's also what will make him a good leader for the team. He'll focuses on the solution that keeps the Earth spinning and stay on task.

carabas
05-03-2012, 02:13 PM
it just is gonna seem really weird for him to be against working as a team and then bam! he's now ordering everyone to do different tasks and objectives....At at guess, it's not going to be a sudden, out of the blue thing. Character development and stuff will probably happen.

squashmaster
05-03-2012, 02:23 PM
i know Lemire said he plans to make John Constantine Leader of justice league dark but the guy's not really a people person he constantly tells everyone to go to hell and threatens them everyday if they so much as look at him the wrong wayi only see him jerking around the team constantly just because he's the leader and they have to do as he says....it's gonna take awhile for them to accept a guy who wanted them to go die while he stayed within a protective circleSounds like it could be an interesting book, then.Why'd you want one with a boring, straightforward leader? It is JLD, after all, not Avengers.

FanboyStranger
05-03-2012, 02:55 PM
I meant mainly in terms of magic. He basically is.
I'd say that the jury's still out on that. He knows some stuff, but he's also not going to let you know what he doesn't know. I know the Vertigo and DCnU JCs are essentially different characters, but I've seen nothing in the first arc of JL: D that suggests he knows more than Madame Xanadu, just that he's better at applying what he knows and getting people to do what he wants. The only real showy act of magic the DCnU John has done was the pocket sun in I, Vampire, which, to be quite frank, seemed a bit much for the JC I know and love. He's very much not in Zatanna's league, but Zatanna is so dependent on her natural magical abilities that she's never diversified her magical arsenal.

golgi
05-03-2012, 03:00 PM
I'd say that the jury's still out on that. He knows some stuff, but he's also not going to let you know what he doesn't know. I know the Vertigo and DCnU JCs are essentially different characters, but I've seen nothing in the first arc of JL: D that suggests he knows more than Madame Xanadu, just that he's better at applying what he knows and getting people to do what he wants. The only real showy act of magic the DCnU John has done was the pocket sun in I, Vampire, which, to be quite frank, seemed a bit much for the JC I know and love. He's very much not in Zatanna's league, but Zatanna is so dependent on her natural magical abilities that she's never diversified her magical arsenal.


That's why I said if he's the same as Vertigo's John, then he basically is. Even if it's half of Vertigo's john, he'd be one of the best preppers in comics. He's one of the most craftiest characters in comics. Seeing as he made God do his bidding and defeated the FOF like 5 or 6 times. And he didn't need any futuristic tech or power amp to do it. :)

FanboyStranger
05-03-2012, 03:32 PM
That's why I said if he's the same as Vertigo's John, then he basically is. Even if it's half of Vertigo's john, he'd be one of the best preppers in comics. He's one of the most craftiest characters in comics. Seeing as he made God do his bidding and defeated the FOF like 5 or 6 times. And he didn't need any futuristic tech or power amp to do it. :)

Or magic, really. He basically just conned them all, especially the First of the Fallen.

Celestin
05-03-2012, 04:45 PM
That's why I said if he's the same as Vertigo's John, then he basically is. Even if it's half of Vertigo's john, he'd be one of the best preppers in comics. He's one of the most craftiest characters in comics. Seeing as he made God do his bidding and defeated the FOF like 5 or 6 times. And he didn't need any futuristic tech or power amp to do it. :)

I'm not very familiar with Vertigo's John, but I read few stories where he outwitted the evil side. But I'm curious when and how did he made God do his bidding?

FanboyStranger
05-03-2012, 04:55 PM
I'm not very familiar with Vertigo's John, but I read few stories where he outwitted the evil side. But I'm curious when and how did he made God do his bidding?

During Paul Jenkin's run, after he had purged all the negative aspects of his soul and sent them to Hell as an effort to outwit the demon Buer, he drunkenly stumbles into a forest-- he lost his tolerance for alcohol when he purged his soul-- and encounters an old man who is a stand-in for Jesus. At the time, the Jesus stand-in tells John stories that relate to his life and his future, knowing damn well that John is going to get into trouble again. Later, using one of John's mechanations against him, the First of the Fallen traps John in a plot that will result in the death of his friends and destroy the spiritual fabric of Great Britain (long story, really). Anyway, the First promises to back off if he gets God to do his bidding, which essentially amounts to a big reset switch for Jenkins' run. John finds the old man/Jesus in the forest, convinces him to have his father do his bidding, and gives him a letter from the FotF to "his old man". John's friends are saved, and Britain is saved.