Vertigo and "Literary Pretensions"

[slvn]

I'm starting a new thread to respond to the below post from the "MythBusters: New 52 Diana is Weak" thread, since, as WhitOro pointed out, the big issues this post raises are not really about the thread's question of whether or not the character has been depowered.


Before the advent of comics with literary pretensions ('Vertigo' is just short for them) there was a body of craft lore that corresponded to cultural expectations about how to tell a serial story in a comic book. There was a general consensus about the abilities of characters, with dimensions in both in-house continuity and broader folklore. When new characters were introduced, their abilities and significance were generally communicated clearly. The writer had to complete an episode within his issue, and maybe got to move along a longer-term plot as well. You can call the writing that resulted simplistic and formulaic, and no doubt it was. But sometimes it too was brilliant, just like anything else.

Sure, but then a few things happened. Older creators retired or moved on to other pursuits, and younger creators, educated and acculturated differently as members of a different generation, put their own spin on things. That's supposed to happen. Moreover, fans grew up--which is also supposed to happen. It turned out that a lot of people stayed interested in reading comics, but, in many cases, their tastes had changed. I know that when I was a kid, "simplistic and formulaic" was fine, and characters' stats were interesting the the way that the backs of baseball cards was interesting. But that all seems boring now compared to more complex characterization and storytelling. I honestly don't care if a bad guy gets smacked down every issue, but if comics creators want to hook me, creating long-term suspense and opportunities to speculate, while also making me care about the characters (and yes, this comic has done that), is a good idea.

I'm not saying that fans who still like the old consensus "craft folklore" have not grown up. They may like lots of sophistication and non-formulaic surprise in non-sequential art and non-graphic literature, but have different expectations for comics. That's fine. And there's not doubt that DC, if they want their business to be sustainable in some form across generations, should do make to make some of its books appeal to kids. For that reason, an all-ages Wonder Woman would be a welcome development, whether or not it turned out to be something I was interested in reading.

But if there as an audience that is still interested in Wonder Woman stories that are presented in less traditional, arguably more complex and sophisticated ways, then why is it bad that DC is selling to that audience?

[SteveGus]

Sure, but then a few things happened. Older creators retired or moved on to other pursuits, and younger creators, educated and acculturated differently as members of a different generation, put their own spin on things. That's supposed to happen. Moreover, fans grew up--which is also supposed to happen. It turned out that a lot of people stayed interested in reading comics, but, in many cases, their tastes had changed. I know that when I was a kid, "simplistic and formulaic" was fine, and characters' stats were interesting the the way that the backs of baseball cards was interesting. But that all seems boring now compared to more complex characterization and storytelling. I honestly don't care if a bad guy gets smacked down every issue, but if comics creators want to hook me, creating long-term suspense and opportunities to speculate, while also making me care about the characters (and yes, this comic has done that), is a good idea.

I'm not saying that fans who still like the old consensus "craft folklore" have not grown up. They may like lots of sophistication and non-formulaic surprise in non-sequential art and non-graphic literature, but have different expectations for comics. That's fine. And there's not doubt that DC, if they want their business to be sustainable in some form across generations, should do make to make some of its books appeal to kids. For that reason, an all-ages Wonder Woman would be a welcome development, whether or not it turned out to be something I was interested in reading.

But if there as an audience that is still interested in Wonder Woman stories that are presented in less traditional, arguably more complex and sophisticated ways, then why is it bad that DC is selling to that audience?

First of all, I'm not at all opposed to "complex characterization", though I will admit that complex storytelling may be more a problem. The larger problem is that there is stuff that needs to be done in any sequential fictional story that isn't being done in a lot of contemporary books. This I perceive as a decline of standards in craftsmanship. Comic book writing with an eye that the story will read better in the trade paperback is a major problem.

Azzarello's Wonder Woman is by no means the worst offender, but it serves as an example. I'd imagine that if you plopped a copy of #4 or #7 in front of a new reader, they'd be left pretty much clueless. Their shock or offense would depend on their familiarity with Wonder Woman and her former supporting cast; but if they knew nothing of the character they'd be even more confounded by what they were reading. Unless you already knew, how would you tell that the drunk guys in the bar full of corpses are Greek gods? I've seen some Marvel and Dark Horse books with a "Synopsis" page, featuring pinups and exposition that explains who the characters were and what happened before. This is indeed simplistic, but it gets the job done.

Every issue may be somebody's first issue. Forget that, and it becomes impossible to grow your audience. Nobody who wasn't in at the beginning can hope to catch up. Right now I'm not complaining about too-dark subject matter (though that's wrong for the Wonder Woman title) or the destruction of her background and supporting cast.

But there seems to be a pattern emerging at DC where new talent is developed on the Vertigo label, which now by my understanding is exclusively for creator owned projects, though this was not formerly the case. This is bad for business in a variety of ways. In Karen Berger's words, Vertigo was supposed to be 'different, smarter and edgier' than the mainstream DCU titles. She didn't really want superhero stories there, understandably believing that they dominated the market too much, desiring to develop different sorts of books. This in itself is not a problem per se, either.

It becomes a problem when new talent is developed at Vertigo, under its guiding editorial philosophy, which I believe tends to be somewhat dismissive of superhero comics. Vertigo writers whose "graphic novels" win critical acclaim are rewarded by turning them loose on DC superhero titles, which is where the money is. They may have developed and shown many skills with their Vertigo work, but the ability to write satisfying single issues of a mass market superhero comic may not necessarily be among those skills. They may have internalized the apparent Vertigo editorial philosophy that superheroes were silly and superficial entertainment, and believe that it's their job to add complexity through deconstruction. The result is that excellent Vertigo writers may end up writing superhero books very badly, and approach the characters in a way that's detrimental to the characters themselves.

I do not like Azzarello's Wonder Woman at all. He is systematically destroying the one aspect of her background and supporting cast that's been fairly consistently maintained over the past seventy years. The tone of the book is dark and uninspiring, and the pace so far has been deadly slow. He was tasked with the job of establishing the character and her setting in what is essentially a new universe. He instead has been dropping destructive bombshells every two or three issues, and his writing leaves readers in the dark about who her supporting cast will turn out to be, what her environment will be, or what the abilities of the character are in this new universe.

I blame Vertigo. Specifically, I blame Vertigo for not teaching him how to adapt his storytelling style to writing a title that will be released as a monthly serial adventure, or telling him how to establish a superhero character for a shared universe. Even adjusting for page counts, look at the story density between Perez's #1 and Azzarello's first several issues. There's a job to do here that isn't getting done. I also blame Vertigo for the inappropriate tone of the book. I also blame Vertigo for inculcating the belief that there was something flawed or wrong with the character as previously presented, that required drastic change.

[Dr. Hurt]

If you give a new reader any random issue besides #1 of any book, he'll be confused.

But that's the point of the new 52. If you want to read about WW, you can pick up #1, not #8. If you want to read about the Court of Owls, you cant just pick up Batman #6, you need to start from the start. Or you can use google and find all the info you re lacking, like the origin, the powerset, etc. It's not rocket science. Also, do you expect them to go through the origin and powerset in every issue just in case someone might not start from #1?

And finally, 24 pages arent enough to tell the stories writers like to write about and everyone except you likes to read about. If simplistic one issue stories is what you want, get the Brave and the Bold book. The rest of us (and we are thousands) will be enjoying WW, Animal Man, Swamp Thing, etc.

[tangentman]

Will all the new discussion posts now operate on black-and-white dichotomies? Here, I see this premise that "if you love sophisticated, character-driven stories, then you hate superheroes; if you like four-color superheroics, then you're anti-intellectual and simplistic." Maybe that's not the intention, but that's a message that keeps screaming at me through all the recent shouting matches here.

Not everything or everyone falls into such convenient, binary modes of thought. Have either of you heard of dialectical truths? That you can have two truths exist at the same time? Several of my favorite comic books either served as the template for what became Vertigo--The Doom Patrol, The Sandman, Shade The Changing Man--or provided years of enjoyable reading experiences afterward. I can't express ENOUGH love and gratitude for Y: The Last Man or Fables! Bill Willingham espouses political thoughts that are pretty far removed from my own perspective. Yet, I appreciate the richness and texture of his modern dark fairy-tale!

I also love more "traditional" comic books! I can re-read old Justice League of America stories by Englehart & Conway--the "Satellite Era"--with nearly as much joy as when I first encountered them in childhood. Kurt Busiek & George Perez fulfilled my wildest fan-boy hopes in JLA/Avengers! That's about as "Anti-Vertigo" as one gets, but still held intelligence, creativity, and understanding of character.

I love Wonder Woman in most of her incarnations! I own several Archive collections of Marston's stories. I have floppies for the Perez, Byrne, Jiminez, Rucka, & Simone runs. You can be DAMNED sure that I'll buy the "12 Labors" collection coming out in July!

I'm also buying the Azzarello run. I appreciate many aspects of his stories. They've captured and held my interest. I like the "voice" he's devising for Wonder Woman. However her world may have changed, I think that she remains true to the concept.

Yet, I also find his run troubling at times. I maintain that I see an anti-feminist undercurrent in his run. While that may seem attractive to certain, highly vocal new members, it's a defect in my eyes. I hate the notion of trading out an "island of a thousand loving mothers & sisters" for a joyless, isolationist jungle where her "sisters" bullied her, and murderous rape-raids are a cultural tradition. To me, that's an act of grave character assassination on the Wonder Woman legacy. That people prefer this version of the Amazons just baffles me and compels me to question what's happened in this world to foster such thought.

I'm not ready to throw the title away, though. I still enjoy the stories overall, if not every last detail. It's not an "All or Nothing" scenario to me. It's also not a neat division of "Old Fans Vs. New Fans".

We're discussing sophistication in a changing art form. I would hope that we can also introduce sophistication in the thought and discussion process.

[Dr. Hurt]

Btw Gus, dont act like this is something new. Did Rucka or Simone write one issue stories which would start with exposition about her origin and powerset every freaking issue? This isnt an Azzarello or Vertigo thing. This is how comics are written nowadays.

Deal with it i guess?

[Javier Velasco]

Interesting dialogue.
But lets make sure we don't let this become personal.

We debate ideas. We argue with people.

[SteveGus]

Btw Gus, dont act like this is something new. Did Rucka or Simone write one issue stories which would start with exposition about her origin and powerset every freaking issue? This isnt an Azzarello or Vertigo thing. This is how comics are written nowadays.

It isn't a problem that begins with Azzarello, that much is certain. But it still represents a decline in standards of craftsmanship, in my opinion.

Historically, I've followed artists more than I've followed writers. Superhero art drawing is one of the few arts left where you only get to be acclaimed as a genius after you've mastered the technicals. Self taught geniuses tend to turn into Rob Liefeld.

But it's DC editorial's fault that they have writers on books that, whatever their acclaim as graphic novelists, haven't learned how to turn in a single issue that can attract new readers. This doesn't mean that the writers don't have other merits. It's that they lack a specific skill set they don't have yet.

[slvn]

Will all the new discussion posts now operate on black-and-white dichotomies? Here, I see this premise that "if you love sophisticated, character-driven stories, then you hate superheroes; if you like four-color superheroics, then you're anti-intellectual and simplistic." Maybe that's not the intention, but that's a message that keeps screaming at me through all the recent shouting matches here.


I'm not saying that at all, tangentman. I actually thought I used a lot of qualifiers--like "in many cases" (which implies "not all cases")--and I said that DC should try to please audiences of multiple ages and multiple tastes. In fact, because I was afraid of being misinterpreted, I explicitly said that I WASN'T questioning the maturity of people who aren't looking for non-traditional, ARGUABLY more sophisticated characterization and storytelling. (Sorry for the all caps--other kinds of emphasis get lost in quoted text on here.) I totally get that someone might enjoy being challenged by Joyce or Proust but turn to Johns or Jurgens for something else. For whatever reasons, some people continue to like traditional superheroics; some people are a little bored of traditional superheroics and prefer something that gets called "literary"; some people like both.

I don't criticize anyone for their personal preferences. But I think if Steve or anyone really wants to "blame" someone for changes in comic book storytelling, they have to look not just to companies (or imprints like Vertigo) but to audiences. If there weren't people who like what Vertigo does, Vertigo wouldn't still be doing it, and DC proper certainly wouldn't be emulating it.

On the other hand, yeah, speaking of dialectical reasoning, if someone can figure out ways to combine Vertigo-like complexity (or whatever one wants to call it) with old-style-comics accessibility to new readers, that might be a great synthesis. And maybe that's really what you're suggesting, Steve, when you talk about the need for Vertigo-like writers to learn to write complete single issues. What counts as a complete single issue, though? Beating a supervillain isn't going to be the formula for every book, right?

[WhitOro]

Let’s start from the most important point here, the entire argument that new readers can’t pick up a single issue because nothing is laid out to them.
Here’s the thing: readers are not stupid. Not the one of this century.

What, when you open your television and there’s a TV Series, do you always find episode 1? No, you might actually be at the end of the season, with a major plot tread being resolved. In Dr. House, do they stop every single time to explain he’s a almost psychotic? Do they give you the complete skill set of his protagonists, or you get it by watching how they act? When a new season start, do they recap the previous one?
(Well, yes, sometime they do, it’s a 20 seconds montage of big dramatic lines being said, that serves no actual real purpose.)
When a guy watches an episode does he goes “well geez, they didn’t told me anything at all. This suck. I won’t watch TV ever again.”

How about a book. You go to the library, you buy A Feast for Crows, only, surprise, you realize it’s the fourth book of a saga. Once you finished reading it, do you burn it because he didn't summarized the previous three instalments or you go buy them?

People are not dumb, if they buy issue 7, they’ll know there’s been 6 more before that. And if they actually stop reading because nothing is explained to them, God help Humanity, we live in a world with such a short attention span they can’t even be bothered to think a little harder.

When new readers come to a book called Wonder Woman, they’ll know the title character is her. I still remember Jim Shooter lamenting that a new reader wouldn’t get who’s wonder woman by reading issue 4… This insanity that they won’t recognize the character from the cover is something that baffles me to no end.

And once more, new readers don’t come from the floppies, they come from the trades. Because new readers are actually smart, and only inane idiots would pay 2.99 for 20 pages (yes, WE are all inane idiots).

(That being said, a recap page like the one at MARVEL is not a bad idea at all)

You know, you wouldn’t find a greater defender of the "done in one" than me. I love comics that are done in one reading, I’m a big fan of Warren Ellis, his works most recent works in Secret Avengers for example is one of the best comics MARVEL pull out in a decade. Six issues, six adventures, no real relation, just good old comicbooks. But even those are not the comics you’re talking about. Even those are far more complex than a normal book, and even in those we don’t know anything about the characters that are inside of it. We have a one line description, that's it.


The tone of the book is dark and uninspiring, and the pace so far has been deadly slow.

You get highly decompressed storytelling in which each issue does not complete a mini-adventure or at least set up a cliffhanger.
No. Slow pace is wasting six issue on Savage Island while there’s an alien invasion on New York, slowpace is filling a book with three pages of head-shots, followed by two pages of vomit, eggs and dirty diaper, jokes and a splash page of a random battle, slowpace is not having the main character appear at all and instead focusing the issue on long trite military talk from D-List cameos.
(I’m talking about Bendis in all these examples by the way).
Slowpace is telling in 6 issues a story that could be told in 3.
With Azzarello, every single issue has been important, with something big happening or a major piece being set. Every single moment was calculated, every single line of dialogue was deeply thought out, everything is either foreshadowed or winked at the audience, there’s not a single line of dialogue that is wasted. Every word spoken is either a character trait being exemplified, and the useless is trimmed down to the bare minimum (no inner monologue, something that too many times is used as pointless jabbering to give a false sense of importante to the scenes).


I blame Vertigo. Specifically, I blame Vertigo for not teaching him how to adapt his storytelling style to writing a title that will be released as a monthly serial adventure, or telling him how to establish a superhero character for a shared universe. Even adjusting for page counts, look at the story density between Perez's #1 and Azzarello's first several issues. There's a job to do here that isn't getting done.
Azzarello knows how to write one-shots. He has done it in the past, many times. He also knows how to write singles stories in the span of five, six pages, stories, back-ups for many Batman titles. He has an higher skill set that you give him credit for.
He’s not doing that right now because creating a big compelling story, requires constant building.


In closure, I don’t really understand this point: we are arguing and discussing that Azzarello Vertigo heritage it's making him writing a story that is more complex, sophisticated, pretentious, than most. We had people tearing their hairs off because Issue 6 was too complex. We have people complaining that "the supportive cast isn't there yet" "we still don't know the villain".
But is that really true?
Is this story really that more complex than others?
There’re some obscure points, we have a backstory that may or may not be true depending on how much we can trust the one who provided, we have some motivations left hanging, we have some characters acting for dubious reasons…
In other words, we have some questions about the plot that have yet to e revealed, because a plot never, ever, even the simplest of all, starts with all the answers.
Other than that, this is really a straightforward story about a hero defending a girl from the madness of some powerful enemies.
Nothing more, nothing less, nothing pretentions about it.



BTW Thanks svln for the thread. And thanks for the compliments on the other.

[SteveGus]

I don't criticize anyone for their personal preferences. But I think if Steve or anyone really wants to "blame" someone for changes in comic book storytelling, they have to look not just to companies (or imprints like Vertigo) but to audiences. If there weren't people who like what Vertigo does, Vertigo wouldn't still be doing it, and DC proper certainly wouldn't be emulating it.

On the other hand, yeah, speaking of dialectical reasoning, if someone can figure out ways to combine Vertigo-like complexity (or whatever one wants to call it) with old-style-comics accessibility to new readers, that might be a great synthesis. And maybe that's really what you're suggesting, Steve, when you talk about the need for Vertigo-like writers to learn to write complete single issues. What counts as a complete single issue, though? Beating a supervillain isn't going to be the formula for every book, right?

Ideally, I think each issue ought to have some kind of 'hurray for Superman! Wow! Look at what Wonder Woman did!' moment in it, that ought to be relatively centerpieced as the point of the episode in the serial story. You can, of course, end on a cliffhanger, but at least classically that just syncopates the story line. Which doesn't mean that it has to be a supervillain, or that other stories can't be brewing in the background, but each single issue needs to have a single satisfactory story inside. Without that, readers can't be expected to stick around for the bigger and deeper story you want to tell. You've got to bait your hook every issue if you want readers to stick around for your big story.

This is a matter of technical skill that's unrelated to subject matter. It isn't like the horror writers at pre-code EC couldn't be gruesome, but they still managed to fit complete and satisfying stories into the pages they were given.

One of the reasons why this Wonder Woman run has failed to hold my interest is that it too reads like it's written for the trade paperback market rather than the monthly market. Truth is, I'd probably be as upset at what they were doing to the character if everything had been presented up front the way Perez did it, but I wouldn't also feel like I had been swindled, taken for a ride by the leisurely pace of developments.

[Dr. Hurt]

It isn't a problem that begins with Azzarello, that much is certain. But it still represents a decline in standards of craftsmanship, in my opinion.

Historically, I've followed artists more than I've followed writers. Superhero art drawing is one of the few arts left where you only get to be acclaimed as a genius after you've mastered the technicals. Self taught geniuses tend to turn into Rob Liefeld.

But it's DC editorial's fault that they have writers on books that, whatever their acclaim as graphic novelists, haven't learned how to turn in a single issue that can attract new readers. This doesn't mean that the writers don't have other merits. It's that they lack a specific skill set they don't have yet.Azzarello and Morrison, two Vertigo writers, just skyrocketed the sales for WW and Action Comics respectively. Your arguement is invalid.

[Dr. Hurt]

Let’s start from the most important point here, the entire argument that new readers can’t pick up a single issue because nothing is laid out to them.
Here’s the thing: readers are not stupid. Not the one of this century.

What, when you open your television and there’s a TV Series, do you always find episode 1? No, you might actually be at the end of the season, with a major plot tread being resolved. In Dr. House, do they stop every single time to explain he’s a almost psychotic? Do they give you the complete skill set of his protagonists, or you get it by watching how they act? When a new season start, do they recap the previous one?
(Well, yes, sometime they do, it’s a 20 seconds montage of big dramatic lines being said, that serves no actual real purpose.)
When a guy watches an episode does he goes “well geez, they didn’t told me anything at all. This suck. I won’t watch TV ever again.”

How about a book. You go to the library, you buy A Feast for Crows, only, surprise, you realize it’s the fourth book of a saga. Once you finished reading it, do you burn it because he didn't summarized the previous three instalments or you go buy them?

People are not dumb, if they buy issue 7, they’ll know there’s been 6 more before that. And if they actually stop reading because nothing is explained to them, God help Humanity, we live in a world with such a short attention span they can’t even be bothered to think a little harder.

When new readers come to a book called Wonder Woman, they’ll know the title character is her. I still remember Jim Shooter lamenting that a new reader wouldn’t get who’s wonder woman by reading issue 4… This insanity that they won’t recognize the character from the cover is something that baffles me to no end.

And once more, new readers don’t come from the floppies, they come from the trades. Because new readers are actually smart, and only inane idiots would pay 2.99 for 20 pages (yes, WE are all inane idiots).

(That being said, a recap page like the one at MARVEL is not a bad idea at all)

You know, you wouldn’t find a greater defender of the "done in one" than me. I love comics that are done in one reading, I’m a big fan of Warren Ellis, his works most recent works in Secret Avengers for example is one of the best comics MARVEL pull out in a decade. Six issues, six adventures, no real relation, just good old comicbooks. But even those are not the comics you’re talking about. Even those are far more complex than a normal book, and even in those we don’t know anything about the characters that are inside of it. We have a one line description, that's it.



No. Slow pace is wasting six issue on Savage Island while there’s an alien invasion on New York, slowpace is filling a book with three pages of head-shots, followed by two pages of vomit, eggs and dirty diaper, jokes and a splash page of a random battle, slowpace is not having the main character appear at all and instead focusing the issue on long trite military talk from D-List cameos.
(I’m talking about Bendis in all these examples by the way).
Slowpace is telling in 6 issues a story that could be told in 3.
With Azzarello, every single issue has been important, with something big happening or a major piece being set. Every single moment was calculated, every single line of dialogue was deeply thought out, everything is either foreshadowed or winked at the audience, there’s not a single line of dialogue that is wasted. Every word spoken is either a character trait being exemplified, and the useless is trimmed down to the bare minimum (no inner monologue, something that too many times is used as pointless jabbering to give a false sense of importante to the scenes).


Azzarello knows how to write one-shots. He has done it in the past, many times. He also knows how to write singles stories in the span of five, six pages, stories, back-ups for many Batman titles. He has an higher skill set that you give him credit for.
He’s not doing that right now because creating a big compelling story, requires constant building.


In closure, I don’t really understand this point: we are arguing and discussing that Azzarello Vertigo heritage it's making him writing a story that is more complex, sophisticated, pretentious, than most. We had people tearing their hairs off because Issue 6 was too complex. We have people complaining that "the supportive cast isn't there yet" "we still don't know the villain".
But is that really true?
Is this story really that more complex than others?
There’re some obscure points, we have a backstory that may or may not be true depending on how much we can trust the one who provided, we have some motivations left hanging, we have some characters acting for dubious reasons…
In other words, we have some questions about the plot that have yet to e revealed, because a plot never, ever, even the simplest of all, starts with all the answers.
Other than that, this is really a straightforward story about a hero defending a girl from the madness of some powerful enemies.
Nothing more, nothing less, nothing pretentions about it.



BTW Thanks svln for the thread. And thanks for the compliments on the other.

Aaaaand... [/thread]

[Outside_85]

It isn't a problem that begins with Azzarello, that much is certain. But it still represents a decline in standards of craftsmanship, in my opinion.

You do realize there is a reason why some people win awards for their writing and others do not?

And decline in craftsmanship? Really? Here's an example:
Batman Forever was as much a comic book movie cliche as you could get...and it was such a monumental failure that superhero movies were more or less and extinct breed for several years, before Marvel started it up again with Blade (who they didn't even put their big logo on).
The Dark Knight does not play as a comic book movie, at all, and its currently the 11th best selling movie of all time, got 8 Oscar nominations and came highly recommended by just about everyone and their dog.

[SteveGus]

Azzarello and Morrison, two Vertigo writers, just skyrocketed the sales for WW and Action Comics respectively. Your arguement is invalid.

They did boost their #1s. Both have declined. What I don't hear people saying is, 'Azzarello is making Wonder Woman interesting again. I will pick up his current issue.'

Waiting for trade paperbacks probably does make economic sense. It might actually be the case that Azzarello has some respect for and is not simply trying to destroy the character he's writing, and the whole mess will end on an uplifting and triumphant note; it's only my mistake of buying the monthlies and having to wait for a next installment that has soured the total experience for me. With the bound volume I can experience the story as it was meant to be, and without any war-on-drugs propaganda either.

But if DC ever wants to go back to its original business model of selling comic books, I think it will need to make some changes.

[BeccaBlast]

Azzarello and Morrison, two Vertigo writers, just skyrocketed the sales for WW and Action Comics respectively. Your arguement is invalid.

Yet the research data from Nielsen indicates that the new 52 relaunch did not do anything to increase the pool of actual comic readers -- inspiring regular comic buyers to buy more issues is not insignificant, but it's not what DC really wanted. Maintaining a high level of investment from the relatively small pool of current fans is a dangerous business model for sustained growth -- and one that may not last past the summer of Marvel bombast that we're about to experience.

Is it fair to say you're both right, and yet neither of you will be satisfied by that?

Steve, if you haven't heard that, it's because you haven't wanted to hear it by this point. This whole board is full of people saying exactly that, and you can't just ignore them.

[Dr. Hurt]

They did boost their #1s. Both have declined.Action has constantly been 3rd or 4th in sales each month. WW is stable at the 15th place. The whole 52 is dropping because the marketing stunt is fading away. But Action and WW are still at their spots.
What I don't hear people saying is, 'Azzarello is making Wonder Woman interesting again. I will pick up his current issue.' He brought a ton of sales. Why else are all these people buying it, because there's free candy with it?

[Dr. Hurt]

Yet the research data from Nielsen indicates that the new 52 relaunch did not do anything to increase the pool of actual comic readers -- inspiring regular comic buyers to buy more issues is not insignificant, but it's not what DC really wanted. Maintaining a high level of investment from the relatively small pool of current fans is a dangerous business model for sustained growth -- and one that may not last past the summer of Marvel bombast that we're about to experience.

Is it fair to say you're both right, and yet neither of you will be satisfied by that?

Steve, if you haven't heard that, it's because you haven't wanted to hear it by this point. This whole board is full of people saying exactly that, and you can't just ignore them.So new people arent coming in to read comic books. The point still stands that people are loving what Morrison and Azz is doing.

Morrison took 5 years to finish his black glove arc in Batman and yet it's hailed as one of the best runs batman's ever had. How could that masterful and beautiful story fit in one book? How could All-Star Superman fit in one issue?

[Maximum Impact]

I found Rucka's writing far more sophisticated than Azzarello's. How many believable job interviews have you seen in comics? Especially ones where the main character's back story and skill set is given and they don't even appear until the last page? At the time it was said to be word dense and overly decompressed but in actuality it took longer than five minutes to read and you felt like you got your money's worth.

I read Azzarello's issue 8 at traffic lights on the way home from my lcs. I equate sophisticated writing with being intellectually stimulating, parsing out tiny bits of cryptic information and riddles and bad puns isn't synonymous with that. It's deliberate smoke and mirrors in an attempt to make you read more into a story than is really there. I prefer straight forward writing that's thought provoking because of what's on the page, and not in my imagination.

[SteveGus]

So new people arent coming in to read comic books.

Here, I strongly disagree. Unless new people come in to read comic books, the medium will continue to die the slow death it has been these past twenty-five years or so.

And I'm not saying that they shouldn't be telling longer stories; only that there should be enough monthly story to justify buying a monthly title.

[slvn]

Ideally, I think each issue ought to have some kind of 'hurray for Superman! Wow! Look at what Wonder Woman did!' moment in it, that ought to be relatively centerpieced as the point of the episode in the serial story.

I think that's a good rule for traditional superhero comics *and maybe it was a good rule for EC comics, too). And we can agree that some Vertigo and Vertigesque books don't follow it. They don't follow it because their target audience doesn't care about it, and its not part of their genre. Faulting them for not following it seems a little like faulting a Shanley play for not being written in iambic pentameter like any good Elizabethan play should. Shaney isn't writing Elizabethan plays; why would we fault him not following their rules?


each single issue needs to have a single satisfactory story inside. Without that, readers can't be expected to stick around for the bigger and deeper story you want to tell. You've got to bait your hook every issue if you want readers to stick around for your big story.

Again, that begs the question of what a "single satisfactory story" is. If it's what you just described, then I would point out that Gaiman, for example, was in fact able to get readers to stick around, without having to deliver a "Hurray for Dream!" moment in every issue (and even, for that matter, without including Dream in every issue, if I recall correctly). Not all contemporary readers want what the classic audience wanted. (Gaiman proved that he knows how to craft self-contained issues--he just didn't need to center each one around a hurray-for-the-hero moment, because that wasn't a constraint that the audience and genre he was building imposed.

[Dr. Hurt]

Here, I strongly disagree. Unless new people come in to read comic books, the medium will continue to die the slow death it has been these past twenty-five years or so.
I didnt say it was good, i said it's what's happening. Despite DC's and Marvel's best efforts they cant bring in new readers. Casuals may watch their movies but wont pick up their books.

And I'm not saying that they shouldn't be telling longer stories; only that there should be enough monthly story to justify buying a monthly title.Well there is, isnt there?

[SteveGus]

I think that's a good rule for traditional superhero comics *and maybe it was a good rule for EC comics, too). And we can agree that some Vertigo and Vertigesque books don't follow it. They don't follow it because their target audience doesn't care about it, and its not part of their genre. Faulting them for not following it seems a little like faulting a Shanley play for not being written in iambic pentameter like any good Elizabethan play should. Shaney isn't writing Elizabethan plays; why would we fault him not following their rules?

Can we at least agree that Wonder Woman is a traditional superhero, and Wonder Woman is or ought to be a traditional superhero book? It seems gob-smackingly obvious to me that it is, and therefore that trying to make it something else is a recipe for certain failure. The basic problem with the Azzarello run is that the writer is trying to force a square peg into a round hole, and making an absolute shambles out of the character's background in a rebooted universe in the process.

[SteveGus]

Also, do you expect them to go through the origin and powerset in every issue just in case someone might not start from #1?

"Faster than a speeding bullet.... More powerful than a locomotive..... Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound....."

"I'm the fastest man alive. I'm the Flash."

"Beautiful as Aphrodite, wise as Athena, swifter than Mercury and stronger than Hercules, she is Wonder Woman"

It isn't that hard.

[Dr. Hurt]

Can we at least agree that Wonder Woman is a traditional superhero, and Wonder Woman is or ought to be a traditional superhero book? It seems gob-smackingly obvious to me that it is, and therefore that trying to make it something else is a recipe for certain failure. The basic problem with the Azzarello run is that the writer is trying to force a square peg into a round hole, and making an absolute shambles out of the character's background in a rebooted universe in the process.
You mean how he's writing a gritty and dark WW book?

If Batman can be adapted in any way possible, from Miller's grimdark TDKR, to Nolan's realistic and sociopolitical TDK, to Brave and the Bold, why cant WW?

Besides, like i've said in the past, this could serve as her TDKR. The grimdark story that brings in the fans and gets them to take her seriously before she balances out somewhere in the middle. Batman went through that phase too.

Now that Azz has brought in the fans and built a colourful and weird world for her, i'm sure they could publish a second book that's less dark. Say, more in line with the way Johns writes WW in JL. More adventurous, more fun. It's that old, preachy, perfect WW that was bad, not the fun stuff, and the fun stuff will return. Hell, we already have fun WW in JL.

Finally, i personally think that unlike Batman and Superman, WW hasnt kept up with times adequately. She was stuck in the Perez era, and even though the printing techniques improved, the book still felt like it was published back then. It's how it worked, how it all came together. And particularly because WW didnt slowly adapt like SM and BM have done, she needs a big boost to catch up, similar to the one Aquaman is getting. I dont know how much Johns is changing his old canon, but nobody seems to care because he's making Aquaman relevant again. Apart from a small hardcore fanbase, everyone else felt that WW was irrelevant and antiquated for a long time now.

[Dr. Hurt]

"Faster than a speeding bullet.... More powerful than a locomotive..... Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound....."

"I'm the fastest man alive. I'm the Flash."

"Beautiful as Aphrodite, wise as Athena, swifter than Mercury and stronger than Hercules, she is Wonder Woman"

It isn't that hard.
They dont do that in WW, but they do that in many other books like Birds of Prey.

[slvn]

Can we at least agree that Wonder Woman is a traditional superhero,

Yes! But...



and Wonder Woman is or ought to be a traditional superhero book? [

Sorry, nope. Or rather, sure, it would be nice if there was ONE Wonder Woman book that could be classified as a traditional superhero book. But it would be less interesting to me than this one. It's been done, and I'm not personally all that interested in seeing it done again and again according to what I see as the old formulae. I'm not completely uninterested--I might buy it, and for those who would like it, I hope it happens--but in addition to, not instead of, the original version. I think it's intriguing to see what happens when you place a traditionall superhero in a "horror"(i.e., Vertigo-esque) setting.



It seems gob-smackingly obvious to me that it is, and therefore that trying to make it something else is a recipe for certain failure.

It's certain to be a failure in the eyes of any reader whose criteria for success include conformity to the old specifications for the character and her background. If there are at least 35 or so readers who like this kind of story and don't mind that the character is a traditional superhero, or who like Wonder Woman and don't mind seeing her in this kind of story for a change, then it will meet some degree of success.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

Action has constantly been 3rd or 4th in sales each month. WW is stable at the 15th place. The whole 52 is dropping because the marketing stunt is fading away. But Action and WW are still at their spots. He brought a ton of sales. Why else are all these people buying it, because there's free candy with it?

psst, Dr Hurt. *passess doctor hurt this last months sales figures* Um, you see here where Wonder Womans sales figures dropped by 5,000 units & it was dropped down to th 25th spot... Not so very stable *shrugs shoulders*

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2012/2012-03.html

[slvn]

Um, you see here where Wonder Womans sales figures dropped by 5,000 units
http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2012/2012-03.html

Actually, only by 2,876.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

Actually, only by 2,876.

Your right. My bad, i'm reading the sales line after it.

[Dr. Hurt]

psst, Dr Hurt. *passess doctor hurt this last months sales figures* Um, you see here where Wonder Womans sales figures dropped by 5,000 units & it was dropped down to th 25th spot... Not so very stable *shrugs shoulders*

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2012/2012-03.html

All books of the new 52 have been losing sales each month, particularly this last one because of the Avengers and AvX. Wonder Woman is still in the same spot as far as just DC books are concerned. So i'd say it's consistent.

Next month that AvX kicks in high gear DC is gonna get crushed hard. Does that mean that their books are trully losing their fans? No, it's just Marvel's stunt stealing sales.

[SteveGus]

Besides, like i've said in the past, this could serve as her TDKR. The grimdark story that brings in the fans and gets them to take her seriously before she balances out somewhere in the middle. Batman went through that phase too.

Now that Azz has brought in the fans and built a colourful and weird world for her, i'm sure they could publish a second book that's less dark. Say, more in line with the way Johns writes WW in JL. More adventurous, more fun. It's that old, preachy, perfect WW that was bad, not the fun stuff, and the fun stuff will return. Hell, we already have fun WW in JL.

Finally, i personally think that unlike Batman and Superman, WW hasnt kept up with times adequately. She was stuck in the Perez era, and even though the printing techniques improved, the book still felt like it was published back then. It's how it worked, how it all came together. And particularly because WW didnt slowly adapt like SM and BM have done, she needs a big boost to catch up, similar to the one Aquaman is getting. I dont know how much Johns is changing his old canon, but nobody seems to care because he's making Aquaman relevant again. Apart from a small hardcore fanbase, everyone else felt that WW was irrelevant and antiquated for a long time now.

I'm not sure that the fun stuff can return now. One of the things I found entertaining about her mythos was the idea of an island full of eternally young superbabes. I don't really care about the gender politics of it or how it relates to Greek mythology or any other practical concerns with the concept of such a society. (In other words, I care not a fig for all those Watchmen-style metafictional issues. Worse, paying attention to that stuff is the H-bomb of spoilers; this is discourse designed to subvert any fiction.) I just found the idea a campily amusing fantasy. That part has been ruined for the foreseeable future.

Historically, I think Wonder Woman got "updated" in the same way that Batman got "updated" by Dark Knight Returns. That was supposed to be an Elseworld, or at least out of continuity. Wonder Woman's character and motivation seem to have been changed by Kingdom Come, in that later writers, noticeably especially with Rucka, seemed to find that version more compelling than the one previously appearing.


Sorry, nope. Or rather, sure, it would be nice if there was ONE Wonder Woman book that could be classified as a traditional superhero book. But it would be less interesting to me than this one. It's been done, and I'm not personally all that interested in seeing it done again and again according to what I see as the old formulae. I'm not completely uninterested--I might buy it, and for those who would like it, I hope it happens--but in addition to, not instead of, the original version. I think it's intriguing to see what happens when you place a traditionall superhero in a "horror"(i.e., Vertigo-esque) setting.

It's certain to be a failure in the eyes of any reader whose criteria for success include conformity to the old specifications for the character and her background. If there are at least 35 or so readers who like this kind of story and don't mind that the character is a traditional superhero, or who like Wonder Woman and don't mind seeing her in this kind of story for a change, then it will meet some degree of success.

If Azzarello's story were being printed as the second or out of continuity Wonder Woman title, I might be willing to follow and even enjoy it.

As a revision to her background and character being done contemporary to a DCU-wide reboot, it is simply an outrage. It destroys all that was original and picturesque in Wonder Woman without replacing it with anything even equally appealing. While I don't want to politicize this myself, I don't think anyone seriously disputes that part of the concept was to give girls an inspiring heroine similar to the ones boys always had; this version is incapable of serving in this capacity, as is any future version based on this one's backstory.

And again, it comes down to a question of competence. You might say that Azzarello plans to restore the Amazons and their culture at some point, that the whole thing might be divine disinformation, that none of the gods or other narrators of the book can be trusted, wait to see how it all ends. But again, Azzarello was given the job of establishing Diana for the nu52 universe. They're getting it done with Superman. They're getting it done with Batman. They've even done a brilliant job getting it done on Aquaman. We're left with overanalyzing crumbs from Justice League while wondering what the characters might be saying off panel. Again, pretentious Vertigo styles simply fail to do the job.

[slvn]

part of the concept was to give girls an inspiring heroine similar to the ones boys always had

True.


this version is incapable of serving in this capacity, as is any future version based on this one's backstory.

Why? Because of what her family has done? I think her own actions, not those of her family, determine whether she is capable of serving as a role model. And I think she is.

[SteveGus]

Why? Because of what her family has done? I think her own actions, not those of her family, determine whether she is capable of serving as a role model. And I think she is.

Do you want to give your daughter The Story of Wonder Woman based on this?

[slvn]

Do you want to give your daughter The Story of Wonder Woman based on this?


Well, this comic's rated T, and I wouldn't have a problem with teenage girls (or boys) reading this and being inspired by Wonder Woman's heroic character. If I were basing an all-ages character on this version, there are just some things I'd never mention.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

All books of the new 52 have been losing sales each month, particularly this last one because of the Avengers and AvX. Wonder Woman is still in the same spot as far as just DC books are concerned. So i'd say it's consistent.

Its not consistent though... Because its dropped by 10 places. But yeah all the NU52 sales are dropping & haven't stabilisied yet. I personally feel that maybe this reboot idea was a bad idea: Oh sure the numbers for last year weren't stellar, but the numbers we have now are still much lower then they were in say 2008 when the sales were still of a reasonable amount.


Next month that AvX kicks in high gear DC is gonna get crushed hard. Does that mean that their books are trully losing their fans? No, it's just Marvel's stunt stealing sales.

They are being crushed now. Its just going to get worse next month. Doesn't mean the numbers on WW dropped much, but her placement on the sales list most certainly has.

[Maximum Impact]

AVX 2 WAS GOOD AS HELL! Was it forced and overly simplistic? Yes! Was it a blatant grab for cash? Yes! Did it deliver on what I wanted? HELL YES!

[The Man From Room X]

AVX 2 WAS GOOD AS HELL! Was it forced and overly simplistic? Yes! Was it a blatant grab for cash? Yes! Did it deliver on what I wanted? HELL YES!

Not to mention it made complete morons of everyone on both teams and made Cyke a class-A @sshole, nothing like how Gillen writes him. It looked like Jason Aaron was taking notes from Bendis on this one. Blatantly biased in favor of the Avengers. His first misstep ever, AFAIC.

[Maximum Impact]

Not to mention it made complete morons of everyone on both teams and made Cyke a class-A @sshole, nothing like how Gillen writes him. It looked like Jason Aaron was taking notes from Bendis on this one. Blatantly biased in favor of the Avengers. His first misstep ever, AFAIC.

I've always agreed with Wolverine that Cyclops is a class-A @sshole so that wasn't much of a stretch for me. I couldn't get over how everyone stuck with their respective teams, Quicksilver and Wolverine both had me shaking my head. The prospect of Magick Vs. Dr. Strange alone was worth the price of admission but Wanda going against the Phoenix Force is too much excitement to ignore.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

AVX 2 WAS GOOD AS HELL! Was it forced and overly simplistic? Yes! Was it a blatant grab for cash? Yes! Did it deliver on what I wanted? HELL YES!

Guys, this is a Wonder Woman thread. You want to discuss AVX you can, just not here.

[Maximum Impact]

This fits in perfectly with this thread's theme of literary pretension. AvX is the opposite of that, it's a big anti-Vertigo mindless blockbuster.

[Maximum Impact]

Besides, I wasn't the one that brought it up. Please return to your previously scheduled Wonder Woman discussion and ignore my past three comments.

[carabas]

Can we at least agree that Wonder Woman is a traditional superhero,Kinda sorta. Traditional in the sense she's been around since dinosaurs roamed the earth. Not very traditional at all in terms of the ideas that went into her creation.


and Wonder Woman is or ought to be a traditional superhero book?Hell no. No critically acclaimed run on the book, be it Marston's, Rucka's, Perez's, or (damn, I forgot who did the adventures of Diaan Prince and I-Chin. Denny O'Neil?) have been traditional superhero books.

But I reallyy, really hate this attitude of yours. It's trying to be smart, so its crap. It's trying new stuf, so it's crap. It's improving the medium, so it's crap. It's not like that old crap I like, so it's crap.

Would you like a traditional car or a modern one?
Top speed about 45 mph... Gas tanks lasts for 20-40 miles.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a288/Gugenheimer/Webdings/ford-model-t-1_460x0w.jpg

[Mr. Holmes]

But I reallyy, really hate this attitude of yours. It's trying to be smart, so its crap. It's trying new stuf, so it's crap. It's improving the medium, so it's crap. It's not like that old crap I like, so it's crap.

Would you like a traditional car or a modern one?
Top speed about 45 mph... Gas tanks lasts for 20-40 miles.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a288/Gugenheimer/Webdings/ford-model-t-1_460x0w.jpg

This thread in a nutshell.

[SteveGus]

Kinda sorta. Traditional in the sense she's been around since dinosaurs roamed the earth. Not very traditional at all in terms of the ideas that went into her creation.

If I believed for an instant that the point of Azzarello's writing was anything other than to destroy the ideas that went into Marston's creation, we probably would not be having this discussion. What we're getting now is more like this:

http://i.imgur.com/uWrHx.jpg

[Dr. Hurt]

If I believed for an instant that the point of Azzarello's writing was anything other than to destroy the ideas that went into Marston's creation, we probably would not be having this discussion. What we're getting now is more like this:

http://i.imgur.com/uWrHx.jpg
You mean all the S&M weird stuff, the sexual fantasies and fetish fuel, and the exploitive way he wrote the book thinly covered behind "truth, justice, and feminism" (the latter being so over the top that it ended being sexist towards men)? There's a reason men in the army liked to read about WW, and it's not because they liked comics.

If anything, this book has more S&M, forced love, submission, etc than Rucka's so i'd say it's closer to Marston's book. The vertigo atmosphere doenst matter.

[Dr. Hurt]

Its not consistent though... Because its dropped by 10 places. But yeah all the NU52 sales are dropping & haven't stabilisied yet. I personally feel that maybe this reboot idea was a bad idea: Oh sure the numbers for last year weren't stellar, but the numbers we have now are still much lower then they were in say 2008 when the sales were still of a reasonable amount.

They are being crushed now. Its just going to get worse next month. Doesn't mean the numbers on WW dropped much, but her placement on the sales list most certainly has.
Yes, but if you sidestep all the Marvel books that suddenly rose in the charts, WW is still in its place.

[CaptMagellan]

This thread in a nutshell.

Yes, indeed!

[Gaelforce]

Time for the friendly neighborhood 'nudge' - please keep the topic to the subject matter and not those discussing it :)

Thanks!

Gaelforce

[kelly_warrior_princess]

Yes, but if you sidestep all the Marvel books that suddenly rose in the charts, WW is still in its place.

Sure & if you disregard every vehicle on the road with more then 2 wheels, the most common vehicle on the road is a mototrcycle. Still doesn't make it the most common vehicle on the road though, does it.

[carabas]

Yes, but if you sidestep all the Marvel books that suddenly rose in the charts, WW is still in its place.The charts are a really bad indication of how well a book is doing anyway. It is quite possible for a book to gain a lot of readers and still move down in the charts if Marvel happens to be publishing a dozen more event books then they were the month before.

Wonder Woman's sales are already leveled off and stable.

[Dr. Hurt]

The charts are a really bad indication of how well a book is doing anyway. It is quite possible for a book to gain a lot of readers and still move down in the charts if Marvel happens to be publishing a dozen more event books then they were the month before.

Wonder Woman's sales are already leveled off and stable.

That's what i meant. Thanks Carabas!

[BeccaBlast]

The charts are a really bad indication of how well a book is doing anyway. It is quite possible for a book to gain a lot of readers and still move down in the charts if Marvel happens to be publishing a dozen more event books then they were the month before.

Wonder Woman's sales are already leveled off and stable.

The 10-place drop is explained by Marvel putting three books that weren't on the previous list, and WW dropping by a similar percentage as other titles for issue #7 -- since it started out with a higher sales level than some of the books that passed, it actually had a greater drop in raw numbers -- hence the anomaly of having a bigger ranking drop than any other title.

To say that they have stabilized and leveled off is conjecture at best -- the sales effect of the #7 controversy won't be known until we get figures for #'s 8, 9 and even 10, due to the way these figures are compiled. THEN and only then will we know if they are stable, or in for a further drop. It's wishful thinking to believe that every reader who dropped the book after #7 will be replaced by a new one.

[SteveGus]

To say that they have stabilized and leveled off is conjecture at best -- the sales effect of the #7 controversy won't be known until we get figures for #'s 8, 9 and even 10, due to the way these figures are compiled. THEN and only then will we know if they are stable, or in for a further drop. It's wishful thinking to believe that every reader who dropped the book after #7 will be replaced by a new one.

You might think --- if you're enjoying it, you might even hope --- that the controversy surrounding #7 might even attract readers. And this is exactly where the writing style fails: it can't do this. #8 isn't going to answer a new reader's questions, 'who are these characters and why are they here'?

[slvn]

You might think --- if you're enjoying it, you might even hope --- that the controversy surrounding #7 might even attract readers. And this is exactly where the writing style fails: it can't do this. #8 isn't going to answer a new reader's questions, 'who are these characters and why are they here'?


#0 in September may be good for this, if Bleeding Cool is right. ( http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/04/19/dc-comics-launch-zero-issues-for-september/ )

Meanwhile, if you were a new but attentive reader, you could actually learn a lot from #8 about "who the characters are and why they're here."

Just within the first couple of pages, you'd know the names of Hephaestus, Lennox, Eros and (if you didn't skip the cover) Wonder Woman; you'd know that Hephaestus has an arsenal at Mt. Etna and has made it available to WW; that WW was raised to prefer archaic weapons, somewhat to Heph's chagrin; that Wonder Woman is going on a mission to the underworld, that Lennox demands and Eros offers to go with her, but she says no; that being escorted by the Messenger is the only way to get to to the Underworld without dying, that Heph doesn't trust the messenger, that Eros isn't too happy to have his pistols loaned to WW by Heph.

In the next few pages, you would learn that the Messenger's name is Hermes, that he is rather philosophical and perhaps a bit envious of mortality, that Wonder Woman is probably associated with London in some way, that Hades rules the underworld, that Hermes considers Diana young and maybe a tittle naive about things eternal, that Wonder Woman worries about souls being deprived their freedom--and then you'd learn that Hermes feels the need to assert that he doesn't need WW's protection, and that WW and Hermes are in the underworld to save someone named Zola, whom WW loves and whom Hades has taken.

You'd learn that Wonder Woman and Hermes can kick zombie butt.

You'd learn that Wonder Woman values lives (and Hades doesn't) because they are brief.

You'd learn that Zola is spunky, and that she's pregnant, and that Wonder Woman and either Zola or her child (to be honest, I'm not sure it's clear from this issue which one) are children of Zeus, that time is passing more quickly in Hades and that Hermes is particularly anxious to get Zola and her unborn child out of shadow quickly. You'd learn that Wonder Woman made a deal with Hades to have Hera marry him (and his brother), that it's not going to happen, but that Hades still wants a queen. You'd learn that Eros' pistols are supposed to make people fall in love.

That's kind of a lot, no?

[carabas]

I'm not even sure there is a #7 controversy. Apart from the ulta-hardcore fans (which haven't exactly been part of the core audience since the eighties), I doubt anybody even noticed anything.

[tangentman]

I'm not even sure there is a #7 controversy. Apart from the ulta-hardcore fans (which haven't exactly been part of the core audience since the eighties), I doubt anybody even noticed anything.

I hope that's irony, otherwise I think you're minimizing there, carabas. :smile:

[carabas]

I hope that's irony, otherwise I think you're minimizing there, carabas.I just mean, they already did Amazons Attack with psychotic, murderous, child-killing amazons... Is this really different?

[SteveGus]

I just mean, they already did Amazons Attack with psychotic, murderous, child-killing amazons... Is this really different?

The substance is not different; it's only that the context makes it more serious.

Amazons Attack was pretty much ignored after the event, handwaved away as manipulation by Granny Goodness. The same is pretty much true of the dreary JMS/Hester run, which was also trying to set up Diana as the Last Daughter of Themiscyra. Given this background, I was actually looking forward to Azzarello at the beginning. We hadn't had a writer with any affection for or handle on the character's lore for more than a year now.

Azzarello's run makes me much angrier than Amazons Attack because of the reboot. I don't want this to be Wonder Woman's backstory for the next six months or twenty-five years. He's in a position to ruin the character for a very long time, and he's doing it. I am frankly starting to get paranoid that the real problem is DC management, and that destroying the Amazons and turning Wonder Woman into a standard-model homeless exile and a dark and vengeful character is editorial policy. Somebody wants to turn her into a "bad girl" cliché because they think it sells.

Azzarello has destroyed Wonder Woman's corner of the DC universe. He's severed the ties with Wonder Girl, made it impossible to reintroduce Donna Troy, Artemis, Philippus, or any other members of the supporting cast in the rebooted universe. If they're brought back, they can't be connected to Wonder Woman's past; they'd be tainted by it. He's guaranteed that Wonder Woman will have a much lower profile in the nuDCU than she had before.

This is what makes it different.

[carabas]

Azzarello has destroyed Wonder Woman's corner of the DC universe. He's severed the ties with Wonder Girl, made it impossible to reintroduce Donna Troy, Artemis, Philippus, or any other members of the supporting cast in the rebooted universe.I'd like to point out here that none of these characters even existed for the first 40-odd years of Wonder Woman's history. It's not really a big loss, and it's not as if they couldn't all be brought back in the space of one, single issue.

You're not making a mountain out of a molehill, you're making a black hole out of a atom.

[SteveGus]

You're not making a mountain out of a molehill, you're making a black hole out of a atom.

You want to focus on what you consider trivial, so be it. Just pointing out the problems Azzarello is making for the shared universe. The bigger problem is that this should not be Wonder Woman's backstory in nuDC, and it renders the character a travesty of what she ought to be; that will require a bit more fixing.

[carabas]

You want to focus on what you consider trivial, so be it. Just pointing out the problems Azzarello is making for the shared universe. The bigger problem is that this should not be Wonder Woman's backstory in nuDC, and it renders the character a travesty of what she ought to be; that will require a bit more fixing.You have not actually pointed out anything that could be conceivably problematic for a shared universe.

And what should or should not WW's backstory is none of your business. And we don't even know what it is yet. Story's not done yet.

[wagthedog]

Wonder Woman's sales are already leveled off and stable.

I guess I am missing your point. How has Wonder Woman's sales leveled off already? From what I have seen, she has lost readers, in the thousands for most of the months in the nu52.

Unless her book bleeds only in the hundreds for 2-3 months can we call her readership stable.

[Mr. Holmes]

If anything, he's made it easier to introduce Donna. He's given Wonder Woman an extended family that Donna could easily be a part of.

[SteveGus]

And what should or should not WW's backstory is none of your business.

The hell it ain't. I don't have to passively accept whatever garbage DC chooses to dish out. And if DC chooses to turn Wonder Woman into a standard Bad Girl, last survivor of her people, motivated by revenge, I shall shout from the rooftops that this is not the real character and that such a version is unworthy of anyone's support.

[carabas]

The hell it ain't. I don't have to passively accept whatever garbage DC chooses to dish out.Of course not. You have a choice; to buy or not to buy. Nothing else matters, and DC really couldn't care less about your diatribes. Incidently, are you spending money on the book right now?


And if DC chooses to turn Wonder Woman into a standard Bad Girl...motivated by revengeNot really any indication to that.


I shall shout from the rooftops that this is not the real character and that such a version is unworthy of anyone's support.And all you'll be doing is a) providing free promotion for Azzarello's run and b) confirming stereotypes about Wonder Woman fans.