Time for the icons to step down?

[murphy's_law_incarnate]

Perhaps it is only my age and longevity of readership, but I can’t help but feel that the major players in the DCU have gotten….stale. As much as I still adore the Big Seven, I can’t help feeling like the characters and the stories (barring a few gems here and there) have been in a holding pattern of predictability and lack of any real development for many years. I see the younger heroes growing, learning, evolving, slowly becoming the sum of their experiences. It is why the Titans, Outsiders, and all the solo “sidekick” media have been pretty successful – it isn’t that we love B and C listers, we enjoy watching the growth. Seeing Dick and Damian as IMHO the most dynamic duo ever put me over the top on this feeling only to have me knocked back down to earth with the new ‘verse. Dick has been bumped to the backseat again to seemingly remain the Lancer of the Bat-Family until the end of time, Karen shoved into the obscurity of Mister Terrific (for now), gone are Donna, Wally, Raven, and countless others, and I refuse to even think about Roy and Kory at this point. I am thoroughly looking forward to the upcoming Finest but I am greedy and want more. More marketing, more adventures outside of their “families”, the best writers, more respect in and out of Universe, etc. etc. I just can’t see any of that happening while the shadows of their predecessors continue to block the spotlight.

Let’s not forget the difference between should and will. I’m not delusional enough to believe WB would willingly slaughter their cash cows to feed the potentially interesting calves, just curious if I’m the only one who feels this way and if there is anything to be done about it (other than simply $$$upporting the youth). Or am I just crazy/spoiled by other forms of media?

[Reginleif]

what about Green Lantern?

[murphy's_law_incarnate]

what about Green Lantern?

Liking New Guardians thus far for the relatively fresh characters/team setting. I'm not nearly as bored with GL as the others because there has been an almost rotational focus that rarely kept one lantern in a spotlight for too long over the years. I'd be inclined to say it is time for Hal to go if it weren't for his solo series working pretty well and not stealing too much thunder from anyone else in doing so; get him out of the league though.

[Reginleif]

Honestly Batman is fairly tired, we need a Batman Beyond title!

[Quinnhop]

I think they should ask someone like Grant Morrison to try making an all new character. Put top tier artists on it. Give him plenty of time to get a head start and do a different artist every issue so they can all be working on them at the same time.

[doordoor123]

I felt this way before the relaunch. The reason that the big seven don't grow or change is because the fans would be upset and they might end up losing a lot of money. Then again, look how everyone reacted when Superman died or when Batman "died". After their deaths, really original ideas follow that do pretty well in succeeding.
I honestly just wish characters would stay dead and let the living live move on and grow. When someone leaves and then comes back, all the characters that have grown in their absence just get shoved aside again. For instance: Nightwing. He was truly becoming someone people could rally behind. Then when Bruce came back, he became just another hero fighting crime. Nightwing is a natural born leader and grew into that part as Batman. Now that he is Nightwing again, he has lost all of that potential. If he had led a team or stayed with Damian after reverting back to Nightwing, I think we would have been a little more satisfied.
They are the most recognizable characters though and they are the reason people pick up comics in the first place. While I do agree with the next generation stepping up, I am also for maybe mixing things up. Instead of making the older heroes move on, put away somewhere where we don't have to see them on Earth. Take them all to Earth-two. Or vice-versa. Bring the younger heroes somewhere where they can relish.
Im trying to say that I know what you mean. They're too iconic though.

[murphy's_law_incarnate]

I felt this way before the relaunch. The reason that the big seven don't grow or change is because the fans would be upset and they might end up losing a lot of money. Then again, look how everyone reacted when Superman died or when Batman "died". After their deaths, really original ideas follow that do pretty well in succeeding.

Nail on the head, and far more to the point than my post. I see these other characters that have such a wealth of untapped potential pushed to the wayside for the guaranteed buck and it hurts. They are peacocks, gotta let them fly.

@Reginleif - Agreed on BB, that draws a beautiful parallel to the others I mentioned. Have the icon there for the initial draw then slowly shift the focus to the other(s) and push the Bruce, Clark, or Di into the backdrop.

[Doctor Voodoo]

I think they should ask someone like Grant Morrison to try making an all new character. Put top tier artists on it. Give him plenty of time to get a head start and do a different artist every issue so they can all be working on them at the same time.

Wasn't Simon Dark a new character?

[FoxMulder2012]

Wasn't that the point of Seven Soldiers? To somewhat reboot a bunch of characters to create the next big DC star? That didn't really pan out, unfortunately.

I think the Big 7 can be fresh, but unfortunately DC doesn't take any chances with them. I mean rather than finding a way to move forward, we go backwards and replace Wally West and Kyle Rayner with Barry Allen and Hal Jordan again. Not that that's a bad thing, but it is pretty clear regression having characters who were created in the 50s take back over for their younger selves. At least when Bruce came back, it was part of the plan.

So yeah, I don't think the Big 7 is necessarily the issue, it's the fact that DC isn't willing to do anything with their characters.

[deadboy80]

Ya I feel ya. Three charecters I grew up with and in turn watched grow as charecters were Dick Grayson, Wally West and TIM Drake. Now as u said, Dick has taken a step back, TIM has taken a leap back and poor Wally rodent even exsist at this point!! So ya I loved the Robin minis of the 90s and the ongoing. Loved the original Nightwing ongoing. And when Wally took over as Flash, it was friggin awesome to watch him grow into that role. Now it seems we are back to square one. Oh well. It seems like Jason will be the new boy wonder that will grow the most, or at least seems to have that potential right now.



Until then BRING BACK WALLY WEST!!!!!

[Dr. Hurt]

They just need to be bold and creative. Like many of you mentioned, Morrison examined what would happen should batman die. Who would take over, what would happen to his legacy, etc. Dick and Damian were fresh and dynamic and then we got Incorporated. I just wish we got more of Dickbats and Damian before going back to the old status quo, which we knew was going to happen some day.

Anyway, DC could move on to new heroes like they did with Wally and Guy over Barry and Hal, but perhaps Bruce, Clark and Diana are too good and iconic to pass and they still sold (excluding Diana until recently) really well regardless. So they just have to write good stories and try new things ever so often. Morrison's new take on Superman in Action and Azzarello's new WW are exactly what i'm talking about.

Even Batman is refreshed. He might be back to the old status quo but we still have a new Robin, Damian, and Incorporated, a new and very creative idea with so much potential (which unfortunately goes to waste because they play it safe and write simple stories for newcomers).

[PsychoGoatee]

Perhaps it is only my age and longevity of readership, but I can’t help but feel that the major players in the DCU have gotten….stale. As much as I still adore the Big Seven, I can’t help feeling like the characters and the stories (barring a few gems here and there) have been in a holding pattern of predictability and lack of any real development for many years. I see the younger heroes growing, learning, evolving, slowly becoming the sum of their experiences. It is why the Titans, Outsiders, and all the solo “sidekick” media have been pretty successful – it isn’t that we love B and C listers, we enjoy watching the growth. Seeing Dick and Damian as IMHO the most dynamic duo ever put me over the top on this feeling only to have me knocked back down to earth with the new ‘verse. Dick has been bumped to the backseat again to seemingly remain the Lancer of the Bat-Family until the end of time, Karen shoved into the obscurity of Mister Terrific (for now), gone are Donna, Wally, Raven, and countless others, and I refuse to even think about Roy and Kory at this point. I am thoroughly looking forward to the upcoming Finest but I am greedy and want more. More marketing, more adventures outside of their “families”, the best writers, more respect in and out of Universe, etc. etc. I just can’t see any of that happening while the shadows of their predecessors continue to block the spotlight.

Let’s not forget the difference between should and will. I’m not delusional enough to believe WB would willingly slaughter their cash cows to feed the potentially interesting calves, just curious if I’m the only one who feels this way and if there is anything to be done about it (other than simply $$$upporting the youth). Or am I just crazy/spoiled by other forms of media?

Well, everyone has their own personal preferences and taste. A lot of what you posted is just that, like when you say "it isn’t that we love B and C listers, we enjoy watching the growth." I don't look at it that way, personally I don't think Teen Titans represent growth just because they happen to be teen sidekicks teaming up. Also, while I'm a fan of Dick Grayson of course, I was never a fan of him being Batman as an idea, he's his own guy and could make Nightwing a name to fear.

So, from your perspective where the younger generation growing up and replacing the old one is an idea you dig, I can see where you're coming from. But for me, well, that idea isn't that interesting because well for example I'd rather keep Bruce Wayne as Batman, since he is Batman. The character is more than the costume. That said, sure I like bringing in new characters and new ideas, but if you're doing that might as well go all the way and have the new characters be entirely new.

But anyways, I'm enjoying the new 52 a lot and we're only six issues in. Sure I do agree they've gotta keep things interesting and not feel like the same old same old, but they don't need to get rid of their protagonists to do that.

Oh yeah as for Karen, she stars in a title called World's Finest hitting in May.

[sethysquare]

Perhaps it is only my age and longevity of readership, but I can’t help but feel that the major players in the DCU have gotten….stale. As much as I still adore the Big Seven, I can’t help feeling like the characters and the stories (barring a few gems here and there) have been in a holding pattern of predictability and lack of any real development for many years. I see the younger heroes growing, learning, evolving, slowly becoming the sum of their experiences. It is why the Titans, Outsiders, and all the solo “sidekick” media have been pretty successful – it isn’t that we love B and C listers, we enjoy watching the growth. Seeing Dick and Damian as IMHO the most dynamic duo ever put me over the top on this feeling only to have me knocked back down to earth with the new ‘verse. Dick has been bumped to the backseat again to seemingly remain the Lancer of the Bat-Family until the end of time, Karen shoved into the obscurity of Mister Terrific (for now), gone are Donna, Wally, Raven, and countless others, and I refuse to even think about Roy and Kory at this point. I am thoroughly looking forward to the upcoming Finest but I am greedy and want more. More marketing, more adventures outside of their “families”, the best writers, more respect in and out of Universe, etc. etc. I just can’t see any of that happening while the shadows of their predecessors continue to block the spotlight.

Let’s not forget the difference between should and will. I’m not delusional enough to believe WB would willingly slaughter their cash cows to feed the potentially interesting calves, just curious if I’m the only one who feels this way and if there is anything to be done about it (other than simply $$$upporting the youth). Or am I just crazy/spoiled by other forms of media?

Uhm. I don't think the should kill their icons. I do love the titans however. But they haven't been selling tons so to say. Its hard for them to sustain a solo title, which is why they work better in a group title. If the current teen titans, legion lost, ravagers make it and people keep buying them, perhaps there'll be more books featuring the titans.

[Kage Kisaragi]

I think its the fans that need to step up. You want to see Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman stepdown, then step up by supporting new characters new comics with your money.

[sethysquare]

I think its the fans that need to step up. You want to see Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman stepdown, then step up by supporting new characters new comics with your money.

Seems like people are always complaining about new characters IMO.

[Kage Kisaragi]

Seems like people are always complaining about new characters IMO.

I agree, if people want other characters to become iconic (and some are iconic just less so than others.), then they need to put their money where their mouth is. Support a book with these new characters in them, write letters asking to see more of X character, tell your friends to buy such books as well, tell them to write letters. Get on the internet do the same thing, tell people to buy X character book, tell them to write letters about X character, expressing how much they like X character and would like to see X character have their own book, date Y character so on and so forth. DC will do whatever they think well get them more readers, that is why Batman has like several books a month, because they know people will read about him.

Not every run on a book will be great, however if you stop supporting it then don't be surprised when the company cancels it and hesitates when it comes to starting other similar new character books, or even less popular character books.

[murphy's_law_incarnate]

I agree, if people want other characters to become iconic (and some are iconic just less so than others.), then they need to put their money where their mouth is. Support a book with these new characters in them, write letters asking to see more of X character, tell your friends to buy such books as well, tell them to write letters. Get on the internet do the same thing, tell people to buy X character book, tell them to write letters about X character, expressing how much they like X character and would like to see X character have their own book, date Y character so on and so forth. DC will do whatever they think well get them more readers, that is why Batman has like several books a month, because they know people will read about him.

That is seemingly the best (only) course of action and I'll keep it up. I just won't be holding my breath while doing it - it took a massive amount of affirmative action and 99% of writers having no idea what to do with J'onn to get Vic a little slice of the pie. Can't see that happening with any of the others.

[Melbourne Mew Mew]

I've said before that I tend to prefer manga, and have little interest in "A-list" American comics titles. Most of the American comics I'm interested in are B-list or below, where characters are allowed to grow and develop, and aren't hung up on being stale "icons".

[Lorendiac]

I think its the fans that need to step up. You want to see Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman stepdown, then step up by supporting new characters new comics with your money.

Believe me, I've tried.

Thinking back a decade or so, to what DC was putting out in the early 2000s, I remember being a regular buyer of the monthly issues of "Batgirl" (featuring Cassandra Cain), "Nightwing," PAD's "Young Justice," and Alan Moore's ABC line of titles. None of those were centered around one or more of the Big Seven (although I was also buying some of the stuff that was).

So they had my full support, once upon a time -- but what good did it do? Where are they now?

Young Justice got cancelled ages ago so that the incredibly lame "Graduation Day" mini could set things up for the awful first few issues of Geoff Johns's "Teen Titans" . . . Cassandra Cain's title was cancelled a couple of years later, during Infinite Crisis (after the title had suffered through several changes of writers) and she was subsequently dragged through the mud in the OYL "Robin" issues . . . Nightwing's long-running solo title with him operating outside Gotham City (and thus not constantly under Bruce's thumb) got taken over by Devin Grayson (the horror! the horror!) and later cancelled, and I haven't seen any new ABC stuff from Alan Moore lately.

I've had similar experiences with some of the Marvel titles of the last couple of decades that weren't just centered around such "big name characters" as Spider-Man, Captain America, the Fantastic Four, Wolverine, etc. Either a title got cancelled or else a writer whose storytelling I really liked was replaced by one whose literary efforts -- at least on that title -- were stuff I could easily live without.

[Kage Kisaragi]

I think in some cases when a new character does GOOD like Batgirl, (which it obviously did and fans were very vocal about how awesome she was), development kind of trips over itself and well, lets face people get ideas and bad stories happen if that was even the problem, but shes still around after being gone for a good bit of time too but shes back.

Young Justice I didn't read back then, but 4 of them are still kicking around and are now older more progress in that way can't be to bad right?

[FoxMulder2012]

Believe me, I've tried.

Thinking back a decade or so, to what DC was putting out in the early 2000s, I remember being a regular buyer of the monthly issues of "Batgirl" (featuring Cassandra Cain), "Nightwing," PAD's "Young Justice," and Alan Moore's ABC line of titles. None of those were centered around one or more of the Big Seven (although I was also buying some of the stuff that was).

So they had my full support, once upon a time -- but what good did it do? Where are they now?

Young Justice got cancelled ages ago so that the incredibly lame "Graduation Day" mini could set things up for the awful first few issues of Geoff Johns's "Teen Titans" . . . Cassandra Cain's title was cancelled a couple of years later, during Infinite Crisis (after the title had suffered through several changes of writers) and she was subsequently dragged through the mud in the OYL "Robin" issues . . . Nightwing's long-running solo title with him operating outside Gotham City (and thus not constantly under Bruce's thumb) got taken over by Devin Grayson (the horror! the horror!) and later cancelled, and I haven't seen any new ABC stuff from Alan Moore lately.

I've had similar experiences with some of the Marvel titles of the last couple of decades that weren't just centered around such "big name characters" as Spider-Man, Captain America, the Fantastic Four, Wolverine, etc. Either a title got cancelled or else a writer whose storytelling I really liked was replaced by one whose literary efforts -- at least on that title -- were stuff I could easily live without.

Yeah, but you really can't blame having writers you don't like taking over on the management... Well, you can but that's totally personal preference. If Nightwing had gotten canceled (which I don't think it ever will), then you have a point. Well, Nightwing was canceled in 2009, but Dick Grayson went on to star in Detective Comics, Batman, and Batman & Robin.

But there's nothing more sales can do with putting bad writers on. It happens to the best and most popular of characters.

[dupersuper]

Perhaps it is only my age and longevity of readership, but I can’t help but feel that the major players in the DCU have gotten….stale. As much as I still adore the Big Seven, I can’t help feeling like the characters and the stories (barring a few gems here and there) have been in a holding pattern of predictability and lack of any real development for many years. I see the younger heroes growing, learning, evolving, slowly becoming the sum of their experiences. It is why the Titans, Outsiders, and all the solo “sidekick” media have been pretty successful – it isn’t that we love B and C listers, we enjoy watching the growth. Seeing Dick and Damian as IMHO the most dynamic duo ever put me over the top on this feeling only to have me knocked back down to earth with the new ‘verse. Dick has been bumped to the backseat again to seemingly remain the Lancer of the Bat-Family until the end of time, Karen shoved into the obscurity of Mister Terrific (for now), gone are Donna, Wally, Raven, and countless others, and I refuse to even think about Roy and Kory at this point. I am thoroughly looking forward to the upcoming Finest but I am greedy and want more. More marketing, more adventures outside of their “families”, the best writers, more respect in and out of Universe, etc. etc. I just can’t see any of that happening while the shadows of their predecessors continue to block the spotlight.

Let’s not forget the difference between should and will. I’m not delusional enough to believe WB would willingly slaughter their cash cows to feed the potentially interesting calves, just curious if I’m the only one who feels this way and if there is anything to be done about it (other than simply $$$upporting the youth). Or am I just crazy/spoiled by other forms of media?

Nuts to that! I need my Superman fix.

[paulski]

Time for the icons to step down?

Nope. They tried it with the last JLA series and it simply didn't work.

Mind you, part of that problem was due to the fact Robinson's writing was god-awful terrible. But still, it didn't work.

[Kyer]

No way do I want there to be a DC world without Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. These are great characters. It would be a mistake to plow them under.

But, dang, I also want Wally. Never interested in the kids, but it would have been nice to know the name of Impulse lived on now that Bart seems to have been permanently regulated to being Kid Flash (because it's as doubtful he'll ever get a second try at being The Flash any more than Wally will be.)

Unfortunately, making my preference known to DC and voting with my wallet has only gained me more money in my billfold and a sense of apathy towards the company.

[Goggindowner]

I think its the fans that need to step up. You want to see Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman stepdown, then step up by supporting new characters new comics with your money.

Like it is really that simple. The big three at least are never going anywhere. Ever.

[Goggindowner]

To the OP, yes I agree with you. I have stated innumerable times on these boards how I would prefer a universe where heroes were able to grow and die, and have new generations step up to replace them. The static nature of mainstream comics is its biggest downfall.

[Zak213]

I'm a fan of the idea of Sidekicks taking over for their mentor as its easy to pitch to people.

"Robin takes over as batman"

I think that is an easier approach than just soft rebooting everywhere 20 years.

[Rud]

I'm not a fan at all of sidekicks or whatever growing up to start wearing the iconic heroes costumes and the iconic heroes being gone eventually, leave that nonsense in alternate universes or whatever where they belong.

As far as i am cornered "Robin" can either stay Robin or find some other identity to take, he should not become Batman so that the original Batman can die or take a hike or whatever it is people want, screw Robin.

[Mr. Holmes]

Yeah I agree. The stories with the big icons just get very stale and repetitive. They just lack forward momentum. The most recent exception is of course when Grant Morrison took over the Batman line, but even all the progression there has been neutered in the relaunch. In the past, I always preferred books like Daredevil or New Teen Titans, where the book is popular enough to sell, but not so iconic where you can't tell any stories that move the status quo forward. It's kind of sad for people who get invested in the characters for a long time only to find things always having to get soft rebooted to keep the characters "iconic" or accessible to the public. I kind of learned that the hard way with One More Day.

[Biolizard]

Yeah I agree. The stories with the big icons just get very stale and repetitive. They just lack forward momentum. The most recent exception is of course when Grant Morrison took over the Batman line, but even all the progression there has been neutered in the relaunch. In the past, I always preferred books like Daredevil or New Teen Titans, where the book is popular enough to sell, but not so iconic where you can't tell any stories that move the status quo forward. It's kind of sad for people who get invested in the characters for a long time only to find things always having to get soft rebooted to keep the characters "iconic" or accessible to the public. I kind of learned that the hard way with One More Day.

The problem is that some heroes do indeed reach iconic status. People learn about particular characters from alternative media to comics; most peoples' first experience of Batman in recent times I expect will have been from watching a Batman film. They're ingrained in popular culture: everyone knows that Clark Kent is Superman, even though they might never have read a comic. So when they do sit down with a comic book, they expect to read about those same characters behind the hoods. A teen who watches The Dark Knight Rises and then buys a Batman comic only to find that Bruce Wayne is dead and some guy called Dick Grayson is now Batman; well I imagine he might be a bit peeved, having had expectations built up by other media.

Now, more malleable are those properties who are less well known. Green Lantern features no less than 4 Earth humans as main characters (though only Hal Jordan and Kyle Rayner can really be thought of as the true stars of the book), but after Hal Jordan was brought back he's basically knocking at the door of 'iconic' level.
The Flash is interesting because both Barry Allen and Wally West have their respective followings, so DC can't really win either way on that one since they've decided to bring back Barry Allen (I've never read books with Wally so not fussed personally).

Same for anything else; the less well known the character, the easier it is to shake them up. As soon as the character gets popular though, the concrete comes along and they're not going to change much anymore. If they do, it won't be for long. That's the way it is.

[PsychoGoatee]

I've said before that I tend to prefer manga, and have little interest in "A-list" American comics titles. Most of the American comics I'm interested in are B-list or below, where characters are allowed to grow and develop, and aren't hung up on being stale "icons".

I dig manga and anime as well, but this comparison is a bit questionable. For one thing, comparing the broad huge manga medium to just "A-list" aka superhero comics from Marvel and DC isn't fair, should compare it to all American comics. And luckily with all the titles out there, we have plenty of comics with character growth and no constant status quo as well. Plus manga has it's fair share of superhero titles without much character growth too.


Yeah I agree. The stories with the big icons just get very stale and repetitive. They just lack forward momentum. The most recent exception is of course when Grant Morrison took over the Batman line, but even all the progression there has been neutered in the relaunch. In the past, I always preferred books like Daredevil or New Teen Titans, where the book is popular enough to sell, but not so iconic where you can't tell any stories that move the status quo forward. It's kind of sad for people who get invested in the characters for a long time only to find things always having to get soft rebooted to keep the characters "iconic" or accessible to the public. I kind of learned that the hard way with One More Day.

Well, to be fair One More Day is just really poorly done, it shouldn't reflect on the Marvel/DC status quo style. Also, while I'm a Daredevil fan, he too recently had a soft reboot and is back to more or less the same status quo as ever, and rightfully so after the misfire that was the previous story arc. As for Morrison's Batman stuff, well the thing is he's a writer who does stuff that appeals to him which wouldn't necessarily work for other writers (or readers). I'm glad his stuff isn't effecting the other Bat books too much personally.

And pretty much, while I love indie comics and I like it when titles have actual change and everything, changing isn't automatically a good thing for a story or character, it can go either way. And while always changing always cliffhanging serialized stories are big right now as they should be, nothing wrong with episodic adventures starring a more-or-less unchanged character, a lot can be done there too.

[skyvolt2000]

I think its the fans that need to step up. You want to see Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman stepdown, then step up by supporting new characters new comics with your money.


Fans have tried supporting new characters and they do get support-how when the over 35 fanboy starts crying about them when they start moving up-we see issues.

See McDuffie's JLA run-he (or the editors) wanted new blood on the book while the Big Three were taken out for storyline issues with the intend of bringing them all back. Fanboy threw fits.

Do we EVEN have to talk about Static? Why are there so many issues with this guy? People know him by sight but we don't see him on Young Justice. We have had 5 bad writers ruin him. We can't get toys, DVDs, video games or even trades (where you can find them) of him. He pops up in a comic and someone has an issue with him even to the point of boycotting anything he is.

Fanboy is the issue because they tend to refuse any type of change. It seems to be fine to do it on a tv show (Justice League, JLU, Static Shock, Young Justice, TT, Batman Beyond & Batman) but when it comes to comics-we see complaints and issues.


Wasn't that the point of Seven Soldiers? To somewhat reboot a bunch of characters to create the next big DC star? That didn't really pan out, unfortunately

YOu can introduce all the guys you want however if you don't use them anywhere esle what is the point? Did we see any of these guys in other books aside from Klarion (Robin & TT) we didn't.
And once again you have to deal with fanboy complaining tha tyou are forcing characters down thier throat.

So until the comapny decides to say "screw fanboy" we are looking beyond you (and your chump change) to attract new readers and maybe a new property for a movie or tv show. You are going to be stuck with what we have now.

[Jody Garland]

Frankenstein actually had a fair bit of appearances, as far as the Seven Soldiers go, to say nothing of the fact that he has his own comic now.

[Mr. Holmes]

Same for anything else; the less well known the character, the easier it is to shake them up. As soon as the character gets popular though, the concrete comes along and they're not going to change much anymore. If they do, it won't be for long. That's the way it is.

Well sure, I didn't say anything otherwise. Just that after reading comics for several years, my enjoyment of the books have begin to go downhill because of it.

[mswood]

Well for myself, I actually wished DC had a line of comics that keep some for the aspects of the old. Characters that age, and develop and move on. Maybe like 5 books of this.

Then the bulk of DC (which I still think 50 books is way to fing much) featuring what characters that get reset, so that all generations can enjoy Superman, Batman, WW, Robin, GL, Flash, GA, ect all as the original characters that they are.

Look at the relaunch 5 months in and sales are still dropping a few titles are getting more table, but per Neislen it didn't expand the comic audience. It failed in its long term goal. It only brought back some older buyers, and expanded the buying habits of current buyers. But they are slowing (in some cases quickly) dropping.

And I am one of them and each month I am dropping titles.

Now of course, I am not saying titles still wont be bad, that writers wont be given assignments that they should never be given, that artists will be placed on books that they should never work on. All of which will occur regardless (and especially as MArvel and DC flood the market with titles). But it does cheat the readers of long term character growth. I think two universes. One with characters tha do evolve and one where the iconic characters are always going to be those characters should be thought over.

[FIFTY-TWO (52)]

I think its the fans that need to step up. You want to see Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman stepdown, then step up by supporting new characters new comics with your money.

Well said.

[PretenderNX01]

Isn't "Earth 2" about the Icons all being dead? So read that one.


Honestly Batman is fairly tired, we need a Batman Beyond title!

There is one. It comes out first digitally in chapters and then is collected in print form once a month:
http://dccomics.com/dccomics/comics/?cm=21090

A new era begins with the debut of the oversized, monthly BATMAN BEYOND UNLIMITED, featuring the print debut of the new Justice League Beyond!

In the Batman Beyond chapter, legendary Batman artist Norm Breyfogle returns to draw the Dark Knight of the future with best-selling writer Adam Beechen. In "10,000 Clowns," an onslaught of new Jokerz is plaguing Gotham City – and the implications of this chaotic clown menace could have disastrous consequences for Terry McGinnis and Bruce Wayne!

[comicfan11]

IMO it's all about a clear creative direction and long term planing.
The Icons (big 6 plus Cyborg) are diverse characters that fuel different aspects of fantasy literature. SciFi-Space (Supes-GL), urban mysteries-dark atmosphere-crime (Batman), Mythology-History-Magic (WW-AQ), time travel-parallel dimension stuff (Flash), technology (Cyborg-Superman's villains) and many other areas. Plus they have an enduring history because people love them.
To be honest I'm way more tired with companies a)trying every time to shove new characters down our throats IN EXPENSE of characters we actually care and b) pushing the so called sidekicks and second-stringers IN EXPENSE of the "icons".
Why can't there be any balance?
You want a strong supporting cast? Nice I want that too. Now can you not name him BatBOY,BatDOG,BATsomething for the hundreth time? And can you make his origin and calling card something different than "Character A is an established character with a long history, so character B must be MORE POWERFULL and thus COOLER, althoug he has zero history and after his first glorious introduction he will be reduced to third string status.

An example Roy Harper. Aside from the tiring trend of the time for every sidekick to be a junior version of the established character (Aqualad, Wondergirl, Kidflash), that I think is a boring beyond belief, the character grew up to an interesting indepenent charatcer aka Arsenal. He used his DIFFERENT (from Green Arrow) abilities, changed his costume and discarded his bow, for a high tech ... arsenal. And he was a nice character with tons of potential. He even led a DIVERSE Outsiders team with NO Super,Wonder,Aqua - boys, girls. Nice.
And then what happened?
Well of course someone had the idea to mess all this up and REVERT HIM BACK TO A JUNIOR GREEN ARROW (Red Arrow). Why? I mean what's the reason? Would Ollie feel more proud for Roy just because HE LOOKS LIKE HIM instead fo WHAT HE ACTUALLY DOES? Is this a reason why I should care more about the Non Icon Roy? Because he suddenly discarded all his evolution just to please GA's standards? Not to mention that GA became an expert archer and survivalist OUT OF NECESITY. Roy Harper on the other hand has an ESTABLISHED POWER he uses when he is NOT RED ARROW (the power-skill to use any object as a weapon) and again this was discarded JUST FOR THE SAKE OF HAVING A JUNIOR GREEN ARROW. And of course then he became a junkie again, lost his arm and became a villain, because the character had been creatively ruined. Actually many readers would rather see their formerly favorite character DEAD than what they were reading.
Any logical being can see this is the sad truth.
So I have this to say on the matter of the icons stepping down.
NO.
The solution is for the lesser known characters TO STEP UP. Simply stop using ideas that worked for ONE character and try to use them another 100 times to cash in again.

Another example. Although I find the mere existence of Supergirl (modern Supergirl) tiring and unnecessary (Last Son of Krypt... Oh wait here's your cousin) when a company reintroduces the character and her trick is just being more powerful (or thought to be at the time which wasn't the case aftyer all) then I can honestly say I couldn't care less about Supergirl stepping up as the center of attention. Why would I? It's not like this character has anything more to offer than Superman. Maybe a slight increase in female demographic, but honestly DC would lose far more if Superman ever took a back seat to his EXACT (albeit female) cousin. So being nearly identical characters, why would a new story or idea that would work on Supergirl, couldn't work on Superman?
And becuase someone might think I just hate some characters, let me sum the Supergirl entry with this. In the current DCnU where she gets a new chance to a fresh start, what's her calling card again? She comes to earth after Superman believed to be more powerfull than Superman!!! Congratulations. After less than 10 years Supergirl gets the same story.
And I am somehow supposed to care for this character more than Superman...No thanks.
Maybe when some writer makes a story about her being less powerfull than Superman and actually ariving earlier for some reason I might try it. Just because it would be a NEW IDEA.

Same with almost any other character. Why would I care even remotely for a new WonderGirl and her stories, when WW has so many stories that haven't been told.

Nightwing for example has adapted and grown to a different hero than Batman, with a different identity, base of opperations and villains. That's a great instance of character evolution. But that doesn't mean NW will ever have a bigger impact than Batman, because of the already established love people have for the character. And that's great because some people will actually like NW more than Batman due to their differenses.

So to sum up.
No the Icons are exactly that, Icons for a reason. And that reason is creativity, great ideas and good writting.
Just do the same thing with lesser known and newer characters WITHOUT PUNKING SAID ICONS TO MAKE THE NEW CHARACTERS LOOK GOOD. Because that is to say the least, cheap.

[PsychoGoatee]

While I agree those icon characters shouldn't be replaced by similar characters, or even characters using the same name, I disagree on some points. For one, there is more to a character than their origin and power set. What stories could be told with Supergirl that couldn't with Superman you ask? Well, she has an entirely different personality for one thing. And well, she's a girl, and there are certain differences that come with that. :tongue: Though I'm more of a Power Girl fan.

[Mr. Holmes]

Well, to be fair One More Day is just really poorly done, it shouldn't reflect on the Marvel/DC status quo style.

It was poorly executed, but the idea stands. Peter will never grow beyond Stan Lee's original conception of the character.


Also, while I'm a Daredevil fan, he too recently had a soft reboot and is back to more or less the same status quo as ever, and rightfully so after the misfire that was the previous story arc.

I stopped reading Marvel after Civil War, so I'm not sure what's going on here. By listing it along with New Teen Titans, I meant to refer to back when Daredevil was still breaking out as a book and character.


As for Morrison's Batman stuff, well the thing is he's a writer who does stuff that appeals to him which wouldn't necessarily work for other writers (or readers). I'm glad his stuff isn't effecting the other Bat books too much personally.


I don't think his writing on the line ever had that much effect on the other writers or books on the line. You still had a variety of different Batman books coming at the time, and there were options for people who didn't necessarily like his work. What's undeniable is that his run caused a lot of forward movement in the characters in the Batman family.


And pretty much, while I love indie comics and I like it when titles have actual change and everything, changing isn't automatically a good thing for a story or character, it can go either way. And while always changing always cliffhanging serialized stories are big right now as they should be, nothing wrong with episodic adventures starring a more-or-less unchanged character, a lot can be done there too.


Sure change is not always good, but I always prefer when writers attempt to do something new over just playing it bland and inoffensive any day of the week.

[comicfan11]

While I agree those icon characters shouldn't be replaced by similar characters, or even characters using the same name, I disagree on some points. For one, there is more to a character than their origin and power set. What stories could be told with Supergirl that couldn't with Superman you ask? Well, she has an entirely different personality for one thing. And well, she's a girl, and there are certain differences that come with that. :tongue: Though I'm more of a Power Girl fan.

My point is that DC rarely if ever explores the difference in perosnalities or even gender for said characters. It's like every writer just sees Supergirl and goes "I always had a nice story to say about Superman, so I'll just say it with Supergirl, cause I'm not writing Superman". It's not the character's fault, it's just what usually happens.
I mean if some writer really focused on SG's personality and not how to make the best Superman impression it'd be fine, but sadly that's more of an exception most of the times. And again she gets the same story with the same "twists" less than 10 years after her previous underwhelming reintroduction.

As for the other point, about powers and stuff. It's buffling because a) DC always ALWAYS make's it clear that Superman is or should be treated like the top dog of normal heroes (obviously exceptions exist like ION and the New Gods, but these are hardly characters that fall in the regular Earth based herocategory) and then b) suddenly Supergirl appears and to make her interesting they throw the "she seems more powerfull than Superman" line to make a buzz. And of course that buzz dies everytime. So the question again is why a character that offers almost nothing new and is based on a buzz-creating line of dialog (which again is not the character's fault, it's the writer's or to be more correct the editor's) would even be considered worthy of replacing an icon. Change this way of thinking DC and then we can talk about establishing a worthy fictional legacy for said characters.

To sum up of course I agree with you on the fact that there are a ton of stories to be told with Non Icon characters, it's just that the should be told according to what the character is and represents.
I mean really???? RED ARROW???? Aquagirl (Lorena Marquez)??? Power Boy (a totally unrelated character to PG with the same CHEST WINDOW ON HIS UNIFORM)????? Little Barda????? As if there were enough Big Barda stories, and some genious throws the idea of a never explained Little Barda??? See were I'm going with this?
How are we supposed to ever take these characters even remotely seriously, never mind care for them...

And just to add something positive while I detest all of the above "characters" I'll just throw Super Young Team and Zauriel (not HawkBoy or HawkGuy or Hawk something) as an example of clever creations and writting.

And I'm also a fan of PG (the Vartox issues where pure gold - You can't go wrong with PG and a super powered Sean friggin Connery!)

[Melbourne Mew Mew]

I dig manga and anime as well, but this comparison is a bit questionable. For one thing, comparing the broad huge manga medium to just "A-list" aka superhero comics from Marvel and DC isn't fair, should compare it to all American comics. And luckily with all the titles out there, we have plenty of comics with character growth and no constant status quo as well. Plus manga has it's fair share of superhero titles without much character growth too.

"A-List" doesn't mean all Mavel/DC superhero books, just the top-tier titles. And yeah, I'm fully aware of Manga's share of titles without much character growth (mainly in the shonen fighting genre, which I'm admittedly not a huge fan of), but even among those, you don't have the same titles and characters you had 30+ years ago dominating.

[PsychoGoatee]

I like to think Lupin III is still dominating anime 40 years later. :biggrin:

And while it's true manga is different than it was 30 years ago, series can last almost that long. At least hits from the 80s are still going like Hajime no Ippo, Ah! My Goddess, etc. And honestly, not a lot of character growth in those either, though I'm a fan.

True there's more variety in manga than comics since it's a more popular medium there than here, and stuff that's akin to say sitcoms, soap operas or procedural crime shows are simply done in manga instead of on TV. But really, even in a lot of those non-fighting manga series there often isn't really much change to character or status quo either, since that's the subject here. Guess what I'm saying is, while it's all different, it's all kinda the same too.

Really, in a lot of ways comparing comics to manga is like comparing comics to TV. Like manga, TV shows always end eventually, and they both often have open non-endings. Which makes sense, since most popular manga ends up on TV anyway as anime. Does this make them better than endless comic franchises like Batman? Well, sometimes yes, sometimes no.

On the subject, I'd say the icons never need to step down. By say, reading both Batman and indie comics (and manga) you can have your cake and eat it too.

[BrotherUnitNo_4]

This is actually something DC could be trying to explore in Earth 2, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[dupersuper]

My point is that DC rarely if ever explores the difference in perosnalities or even gender for said characters. It's like every writer just sees Supergirl and goes "I always had a nice story to say about Superman, so I'll just say it with Supergirl, cause I'm not writing Superman". It's not the character's fault, it's just what usually happens.

*thinks back to Supergirl stories by Gates, Puckett, Kelly, Loeb, David, Stern, Byrne, Wolfman...*

Nope. Some of the above wrote crappy Supergirl stories, but none of them wrote Supergirl as Superman light (and yes, I'm aware those writers cover 3 different Supergirls).