Crossovers?

[celestialbodies]

In your opinion what is the main reason crossovers usually don't work well?

I think it has to do with respect, because honestly there isn't enough of it for the story itself, the characters involved, or continuity. An idea is pitched it seems with some potential and then there's no real inbetween there's just an end. I think if the appropriate amount of time was taken to ask what do we want to accomplish with this event, who should be effected by it, and how can it truly change the status quo for those specific characters or franchises involved.

Take AvX I'm not about to bash it but I really don't believe the Avengers should be involved because they have no connection to the mythos of the PF and have never shuttered to care before. In all honestly to give this story any credibility it should be about three things the Grey/Summers family(Rachel, Nate, Cable, Hope, Cyclops, Alex, Lorna, and even Quentin Quire), the fall of Cyclops and his eventually redemption character arc, and the return of Jean Grey.

Sidenote: I think at least partially crossovers should be for the B, C, and D listers in order to elevate their status because the A-listers for the most part are gonna receive all the development they'll need in their own books where as the others not so much.

[Old Sparky]

Crossovers don't work so well because they are obvious ploys to amp up sales with marketing gimmicks rather than actual good storytelling. Someone probably pitches an idea, "What if X fights Y and Z occurs around them?"


What if the Hulk fights a whole bunch of alien gladiators after being banished from Earth by former friends and associates?

What if Captain America fights Iron Man and a legal battle occurs as a result of heroes' right to refuse to register as government agents?

What if the Hulk returns to fight the heroes who exiled him and New York is demolished in the conflict?

What if the everybody fights the skrulls who have already invaded earth and have been manipulating government agencies and events to consolidate their authority?

What if Norman Osborn and a bunch of villains posing as Avengers fight the real Avengers (and other heroes) because Osborn becomes America's top cop after killing the skrull queen?

What if an omnipotent Hercules had to do battle with the now omnipotent deity that killed Zeus while all existence threatens to fall into oblivion?

What if the Sentry fights Thor while Osborn's Dark Avengers lay siege to Asgard as the world realizes that Osborn is insane and that a fickle America now needs former traitor Steve Rogers to be in charge?

What if Thor had to fight other heroes and villains who had hammers just like his as an ancient evil comes back to take his power back from Odin?



Here's an idea... lay off the crossovers for awhile. Give us time in between for the regular stories that only need one book to tell them. Geez, Marvel. There's no sense in burning yourselves out over stories that mostly suck anyhow.

[CaptCleghorn]

Give us time in between for the regular stories that only need one book to tell them.

a) This.
b) What he said.
c) QFT.
d) All of the above.

[Old Sparky]

I'm wondering if there's some kind of pattern to the events that would enable us to predict what the next one will be.

Space heroes vs. Cosmic evil
Heroes vs. Heroes
Hulk vs. Heroes
Heroes vs. Skrulls (disguised as heroes)
Heroes vs. Villains (dressed up as heroes)
Gods & heroes vs. Villains (dressed up as heroes)
Gods & heroes vs. Semi-ultimate evil
Gods & heroes vs. Ultimate evil
Heroes vs. Mutant Heroes


Ummm...

Maybe if we just look at the antagonists?

Annihilus
Pro-Registration Heroes
Illuminati Heroes
Skrulls
Norman Osborn (and his Dark Avengers, and the Cabal)
Evil god (Mikaboshi)
Evil god (The Serpent)


Okay, who've been the primary protagonists?

Nova & cosmic friends
Anti-Registration Heroes
Hulk & the Warbound
Avengers
Hercules
Thor
X-Men


You know, I know Reed and the others were involved in some of the past events, but based on what I'm seeing, after AvX I'm predicting a major crossover event centered around the Fantastic Four. Annihilus and Galactus both featured in recent memory, as have the skrulls... its been awhile since the Kree have done anything... and what about the Shi'ar?

Screw it. The next big crossover event should reunite Spidey, Hulk, Ghost Rider, and Wolverine as the Fantastic Four and they should fight the Brood who have wiped out the Kree, the Shi'ar, and the Inhumans before heading to earth. The twist? Everyone suspects everyone else of having brood eggs in them and Congress passes a law outlawing brood births forcing the reader to pick a side on the alien abortion issue as arguments are made to kill suspected hosts before they hatch the broodlings... so the main heroes have to fight both the Brood and amongst themselves. Because she's one of my favorite characters, Squirrel Girl decides the day is no longer worth saving and escapes to an alternate reality where major crossover events are not regular occurances.

[Alan2099]

Too many characters in not enough story.

[Hulk_Is]

I believe that crossovers do work well. Crossovers give readers a sense of a shared universe and entices them to follow another lead. But, I believe some reasons that others don't believe they work is because of:

A) Budgetary constraints - Sometimes readers want to follow other books, but their current situation doesn't afford them the opporotunity to follow all of the books that crossover into one another.

B) Cover price consciousness - Particulary of the buyers who stick only with titles that are $2.99. If a crossover is happening in another book that is $3.99, they will avoid it and will never get the full flavor of how smooth a crossover can be.

C) Creator followers - Particularly of writers. They want a writer to be able to tell a story without any crossover.

D) Trade-waiters - A trade-waiter may only want a certain series. And, much like with those readers that are overly conscious of the cover price, they don't have any plans of buying the extended parts of the story.

E) Ignorance - The aformentioned reasons can result in this reason. This often results alot in readers who've spent much of their time "on the outside looking in", so it appears (to them) that crossovers do not work.

[Tiamatican]

The problem is that there generally isn't enough character focus. The writers get really excited about the ideas they come up with, but then forget to keep the focus on the characters. The cosmic line did a fantastic job, because no matter how utterly insane things got, it was still all about the people involved. Spider-Island is another great example: Big idea, but the idea wasn't the point. The point was Spider-Man. How does Spider-Man react to Manhattan being covered in people with his powers?

But with an event like Fear Itself, to use the most recent example, it ended up being "this happens and then this happens and then boom!" Too little attention was paid to the characters. We weren't given any real reason to care. The Spider-Man tie-in mini to FI was an incredible piece of writing, because it both capitalized on the concept - fear - but also made us genuinely care about what was going on.

With any story, the writers and editors need to be remembering that stories are about the characters.

[Old Sparky]

Okay, for the record, I'm okay with crossovers... what I think bothers me most (and probably lots of other people) is when the crossover becomes too big for itself with tie-ins to various books, sometimes with only a tenuous acknowledgement of the larger story.


Crossovers are good. Annihilation was great, but it didn't really interfere with any other major titles and allowed readers to explore the expanses of space in the Marvel U.

A self-contained crossover that puts characters from various other titles into a story together is fine too. Its okay to acknowledge the crossover in related books, but don't throw the event name on the cover of the book like its required reading for the larger story.

My favorite kind of crossover? Guest stars. Want to promote a shared universe? Let characters from one book guest star in another book because the story can and would logically involve them somehow.

There's no reason to have major crossover event after crossover event with lots of tie-ins other than Marvel trying to capitalize on the sales of books that tie in to the event that readers of one involved book might otherwise avoid but may grab because the event name is on it. The events themselves can be okay, but over-saturation tends to make the average reader over critical of it all.

[Expletive Deleted]

Honestly, I don't think the failure rate for crossovers is that much higher than for regular stories. They're bigger and farther between, so the mediocre ones are seen as failures and the failures are seen as catastrophes.

That said, for the ones that do go south, I don't think there's any one reason. Sometimes it's a story that would've worked better in a different format. Sometimes it's a lack of coordination. Sometimes there're simply too many cooks in the kitchen. And every other time, it's something completely different.

[aNamored]

I usually frown on crossovers because I am not into the majority of the characters involved AND as many folks have said, lack of characterization, that's huge for me.

However, when something like the upcoming Omega Effect happens, where the writers know, respect and have worked with each other in the past and they also know and will acknowledge the histories of the characters they are bringing together, sign me up. If more crossovers were approached with this much care for characters and story, I wouldn't be so prone to turn up my nose.

[Bad Wolf]

They feel contrived.

[strathcona]

The problem is that there generally isn't enough character focus. The writers get really excited about the ideas they come up with, but then forget to keep the focus on the characters. The cosmic line did a fantastic job, because no matter how utterly insane things got, it was still all about the people involved. Spider-Island is another great example: Big idea, but the idea wasn't the point. The point was Spider-Man. How does Spider-Man react to Manhattan being covered in people with his powers?

But with an event like Fear Itself, to use the most recent example, it ended up being "this happens and then this happens and then boom!" Too little attention was paid to the characters. We weren't given any real reason to care. The Spider-Man tie-in mini to FI was an incredible piece of writing, because it both capitalized on the concept - fear - but also made us genuinely care about what was going on.

With any story, the writers and editors need to be remembering that stories are about the characters.

Once again I have to say: CBR needs a 'Like' feature.

[Specimen 297]

My problem is...

Why are stuff like Secret Invasion, Siege or Fear Itself crossovers? On the surface, they are just Avengers stories. They're the same length as a standard Avengers arc and all pretty much are just Avengers-heavy stories. So, why not just have them in an Avengers book instead of having an Avengers book where it feels like nothing really happens?

Civil War and Dark Reign were crossover ideas that work. Because they're more concepts than events. Every hero would be some way affected by being forced to sign up with the Government, or bad guys now having authority over good guys. Fear Itself? How is some heroes, mostly Avengers, fighting off a group of bad guys anything other than a self-contained Avengers story?

[strathcona]

My problem is...

Why are stuff like Secret Invasion, Siege or Fear Itself crossovers? On the surface, they are just Avengers stories. They're the same length as a standard Avengers arc and all pretty much are just Avengers-heavy stories. So, why not just have them in an Avengers book instead of having an Avengers book where it feels like nothing really happens?

Civil War and Dark Reign were crossover ideas that work. Because they're more concepts than events. Every hero would be some way affected by being forced to sign up with the Government, or bad guys now having authority over good guys. Fear Itself? How is some heroes, mostly Avengers, fighting off a group of bad guys anything other than a self-contained Avengers story?

I do agree with you. But, I think it depends on how it's written. Infinity Gauntlet was basically the same thing as Fear Itself, but it worked as a crossover because it was written as seeming a genuine threat that everyone needed to get involved in. Fear Itself kept telling us how much of a threat it was but failed to actually show us that it was one.

[Specimen 297]

Too much emphasis on "ordinary stories" (Secret Invasion, Siege) making what pass for ordinary stories in the books now seem trivial.

Secret Invasion was just an Avengers story. I mean, it was by both the writer and artist of New Avengers. It clearly was New Avengers but it was such an "epic story" it got it's own series... which probably says something about stories contained in books. Like they're saying "if something big or important or exciting is going to happen.... it needs its OWN series because Avengers can't contain awesomeness!!"