The 90s - Worst Batman decade ever?

[LetsGetNerdy]

I took a closer look to my Batman favorits and I have to admit that there are only a very few from the 90ties. Very, very few.

Let´s be honest: From Knightfall to the Year 2000 Batman was a mess.

It all started very bad with all this sick and boring crap that Jean Paul became Batman (still one of the worst part of Batman History). Then they tried to hard to get hard to get a "Sandman"-like feeling into the series (wrong idea, big fail!). Then following years of "I can not remember" issues (I really can not remember any of them).

Then all this excessive crossover behavoir: "Buy Azrael, Buy Shadow of the Bat, Buy Catwoman, Buy Robin, Buy this and that and send us your money because we are trying to outsmart you with a lot of comics you dont like but you are buying now by your hunger for Batman Storys." It really sucked!

Contagion... well... hmmm... kind of not bad but also not great. It just tried too hard to jump on the Mid 90ties trend of epedemic thrillers in movies and novels.

And at the end this boring and meaningless (and endless) Cataclysm/After Shock/No Mans Land-Mess. This whole No Mans Land run was so boring - I never was so bored with a comic series before. Batman always was a urban character. He works best when is his fighting crime in an urban enviroment.

And it this whole No Mans Land was also so meaningless because everybody knew that Gotham would be rebuild. So nearly 100 issues of drama about nothing? Boring!

I dont like Batman in the 90ties. I think the whole series was in a deep identity crisis and did not know where to got. It all get tremendous better when the writers and artists remembered the basic strength of Batman: Fighting crime in an dark and grim enviroment with a dark and grim Batman.

The 2000 to 2005/6 run in Batman was the best ever. So far above the 90ties. It was simply the best comic series ever with the highest level of story telling and artwork.

Well... until this everything goes down the drain agaon with this whole Crisis/RIP stuff. Honestly, I gave up to read Batman because I really did not understand it anymore.

[Jake V]

There were low points, but I loved Knightfall and No Man's Land.

I also love RIP and Batman Reborn.

[Silver_Snake]

Think you just described comics in general during the 90s I got into Batman during batman reborn and have gone back and read the earlier stuff and agree with you about the whole Knightfall to No Mans land period, but I disagree with you about RIP I thought it was a good arc.

[Esoteric J]

His costumes during that time where the best. All black with a yellow insignia.

[JTG]

I love Norm Breyfogle's Batman design and some of Alan Grant's stories too much to hate all of the 90s. Plus I liked Anarky (not the ongoing series, that was questionable).

But yes, the 90s had some... ahem, looooooooow points.

[Cavemold]

I'm a 90s kid so no. Azrael was great :) was he the first to replace Bruce as batman?

[OverMaster]

And it this whole No Mans Land was also so meaningless because everybody knew that Gotham would be rebuild. So nearly 100 issues of drama about nothing? Boring!

It never was about if Gotham would be rebuilt or not, it was about how and what would happen in the meanwhile.

Most superhero events are like that, actually.

I think the Batbooks were actually more streamlined and coherent with each other in the 90s than through most of the 00s, because the writers seemed to be more in synch and coordination with each other.

[ngroove]

Nobody's forcing ya to read satellites. I was a semi-casual reader myself of Robin, Catwoman, and Batgirl, because I myself found them all interesting and heroes in their own right. But no way am I ever being caught dead with an Azrael.

Otherwise, on the Batman side, re-check your issues of Batman / Detective Comics / Shadow of the Bat with these names: Alan Grant, Norm Breyfogle, Doug Moench, Kelly Jones, Chuck Dixon, and Graham Nolan.

[Alex Decay]

I thought it was generally agreed that the 90s was the worst decade, creatively, for everything comic related? :biggrin:

[vampiric_cannibal]

I thought it was generally agreed that the 90s was the worst decade, creatively, for everything comic related? :biggrin:

Well, a lot of it was stupid or ridiculous, just like the 80s, 70s, 60s. Just comics were now meant to be taken seriously. Which meant that they were seriously stupid or ridiculous.

Early 2000s weren't too good either, other than that times Batgirl. About the only 2 stories still referenced are Hush and Under the Hood, and they are quite divisive.

Morrisson's run started well, I feel, with Batman & Son, but it stepped up with Batman & Robin. Which really wasn't planned from the beginning. Dick was meant to die in Infinite Crisis while presumably Morrisson was planning his run, and Damian was meant to die in the first arc. Batman Reborn could well of originally been planned to have Jason Todd and Tim Drake as Batman and Robin. Woah.

[Kimi]

Personally, I think it's greatly the contrary.

If anything, the two lastest decades were the ones when the Batman concept really cemented itself on a whole new level, be it on: iconicness, status, merchandising, etc...

Who would have dared to say Batman tops Superman flagship 20 years ago, just the fact that pops up into discussion here and there these days really speaks for itself.

I'd say even if many of the tales weren't great in themselves by some terms, they had pretty memorable happenings that are core in story of the Bat, like Bruce's fall, Virus in Gotham, the earthquake, etc...

I mean, even if we don't like these scripts, just noticing how many of the Bat stories are actually easy coming to mind is the point, most of the heroes are lucky if they have more than a couple of things to mention in same period again regardless of quality.

[Retro315]

I consider everything post-Year One to be ... "technically superior" to the older stuff, in one regard. The continuous narrative, the story that built upon itself for 25 years. But certain aspects of the 90s - sort of the "infancy" of a more cohesive Batman world - were pretty shaky. And obviously the Pre-Crisis Batman has to be judged on its own merits in a different way (I love ALL OF IT, it's archival material)

There are highpoints. Alan Grant and Chuck Dixon are hardly bad at execution. And Tim Drake is fantastic. Some of the artists made their stake and tried something dramatic and different. But there is a LOT of low. Just taking the Batman staples - the stock villains - and throwing them in kind of uninteresting scenarios ("Joker summons Etrigan"? Seriously WTF?). But practically all of the "new characters created" just don't stand up. They scream 90's, their motivations are fairly terrible. Their gimmicks worse.

For my money, post-Year One Batman started incredibly strong ... spent a decade being kind of awful (despite Knightfall having some impact - Bane and Azrael are like the Big 2 of the 90s) and then Batman didn't hit his stride again until the 2000s. The 2000s themselves just kept one-upping themselves, until the last couple years when things just really went into creative and critical overdrive. (But the early 2000s have some absolute gems. Robin: Year One stands out for me)

[Buried Alien]

Batman has had something good going for him in almost every decade that his books have been in publication, but if you had to single out a bad decade for him, it'd probably be the 1950s. Although Grant Morrison has tried (with varying success) to rehabilitate some of the weirder stuff from the Fifties, it's generally not regarded as a great period for the Bat.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[BillCarson]

There's quite a bit to like from the 90s:

Grant-Breyfogle run continued in the early part

Kelly Jones-Doug Moench Batman run was freakin crazy

Legends of the Dark Knight (which is seriously underrated as a great Batman book) had tons of great stories like Gothic, Prey, Venom, Shaman, Faces, Hothouse, etc. Even if you didn't like what was going on with the Bat books during that time it mostly stayed out of continuity.

Chuck Dixon had what is probably the definitive run for Tim Drake Robin and Nightwing.

I've always had a soft spot for Knightfall (but not Knightsquest or Knightsend)

The Long Halloween (I'm not a huge fan of this but I can't deny it's influence)

Batman vs. Predator Ruled

Other miscellaneous things like the Annual with Two-Face's origin.

All in all I would say Batman fared a hell of a lot better than most other major comic book characters during the 90s.

[ArnoldoAAD]

No Man Land is on my eyes the best Batman Event ever made
Knightfall was great
also pretty much everything Billcarson posted also has my seal of approval

the 90s were cool

[Venomous Mask]

Regardless of what was going on in the comics, Batman was redeemed with the animated series.

[BillCarson]

I forgot Batman Adventures. A great comic that was.

[Eivion]

This is basically the only Batman I've been reading for the last two years save a few things here and there. I thought Knightfall was good on the whole though the KnightQuest part wasn't so good. I love Jean Paul Valley and find Azrael to be a fairly decent read if only for the character aspect.

Contagion was gearing up to be something good until it flat ending. I thought lEgacy was kind of average. I liked Cataclysm and parts of Atershock. Loved the Road to No Man's Land. And so far I like No Man's Land (only read the 1st volume of the new edition so far).

So far the 90's era of Batman has been good to me.

[darkseidpwns]

90's was the most horrible period in comics if you ask me but Batman was an exception to that.90's were responsible for pushing the Batfamily characters and making them strong enough to hold titles that lasted around a 100 issues(average).

Nightwing lasted 151 issues and was only cancelled cause Dick became Batman.
Robin lasted 180 or so and only ended cause he became Red Robin
Azrael lasted 100 issues
Catwoman lasted 91
BOP lasted almost 140
Batgirl(Cassandra Cain) lasted 65 issues

The next volumes of those ongoings did'nt last as long

Azrael lasted 18 issues
Catwoman lasted 80 or so issues
Batgirl lasted 25
Red Robin lasted 28 something
BOP was less than 15

Now Catwoman,BOP and Nightwing have been relaunched again,lets see how long they last.

My numbers are'nt specific so if I'm a few issues down or up then don't nag.

Overall I think late 80's to NML>>>>>>>Hush to UTRH(2000-2006),I don't think the 90's
produced stories as bad as Hush Returns,Officer Down and War Games.
Hush and Fugitive were nothing much to brag about either,only UTRH was decent.I have'nt read much of Gotham City central aside from the Mad Hatter storyline(which was great though) so I can't comment on that.Rucka had a solid run on Tec but I think Dixon's was just as good.Ed Brubaker had decent ideas regarding Deadshot,Cain and Zeiss but his stuff seemed so generic and uninspired.

Thank God for Morrison,Dini and now Snyder or else we would still be getting crappy tales showcasing the awesomeness of the mary sues Black Mask and Hush.

[Brannon]

I think with Batman (and DC and Marvel and general) you can draw a line as to WHEN quality started taking a back seat to gimmicks, deaths, ridiculous art, etc--the founding of Image comics. From Crisis to about 1992, Marvel and DC's superhero fair was for the most part good, particularly DC and the whole family of Batman books. For the most part, of course. This really didn't change till the 90's ended.

The Miller/Starlin/Aparo/Grant/Breyfogle "run" still presents Batman at his absolute peak as far as the comics go for me. (Though BTAS is probably Batman at his absolute peak, just edging out that period for me.)

[ngroove]

I think with Batman (and DC and Marvel and general) you can draw a line as to WHEN quality started taking a back seat to gimmicks, deaths, ridiculous art, etc--the founding of Image comics. From Crisis to about 1992, Marvel and DC's superhero fair was for the most part good, particularly DC and the whole family of Batman books. For the most part, of course. This really didn't change till the 90's ended.

The Miller/Starlin/Aparo/Grant/Breyfogle "run" still presents Batman at his absolute peak as far as the comics go for me. (Though BTAS is probably Batman at his absolute peak, just edging out that period for me.)

Skipped a few issues from your "run"; how was the reprentation of Max Allan Collins to ya?

[ngroove]

But practically all of the "new characters created" just don't stand up. They scream 90's, their motivations are fairly terrible. Their gimmicks worse.

Yeah, new-villains-wise, mostly a bunch of psychos, vigilantes, and overly trigger-happy mercenaries.

Heyyy, anyone noticed, many of the Post-Crisis created Bat-Villains, are quite killed off? Ratcatcher, KGBeast, NKVDemon, Magpie, Trigger Twins, King Snake, Lynx, Gunbunny, Silver Monkey, Hellhound, Orca, Lady Spellbinder, Ventrilo-well, not anymore for him, but was, for a few years.

Only a select few ( Harley Quinn, Bane, Mister Zsasz, Ventriloquist) would make it alongside the classics, while others (Gunhawk, Tally Man, Cornelius Stirk), after their few appearances of the time, would fade, unused into obscurity, I would say Lock-Up and Amygdala somewhere in-between.

[Arkham_Frog]

The 2000 to 2005/6 run in Batman was the best ever. So far above the 90ties. It was simply the best comic series ever with the highest level of story telling and artwork.

Well... until this everything goes down the drain agaon with this whole Crisis/RIP stuff. Honestly, I gave up to read Batman because I really did not understand it anymore.


By highest level of artwork, i'm assuming you mean Hush?

The fact that you dislike it because you couldn't understand it, is kinda unfair, and somewhat childish (no offence)

[Arkham_Frog]

Double post. >_>

[Fast]

Yeah, new-villains-wise, mostly a bunch of psychos, vigilantes, and overly trigger-happy mercenaries.

Heyyy, anyone noticed, many of the Post-Crisis created Bat-Villains, are quite killed off? Ratcatcher, KGBeast, NKVDemon, Magpie, Trigger Twins, King Snake, Lynx, Gunbunny, Silver Monkey, Hellhound, Orca, Lady Spellbinder, Ventrilo-well, not anymore for him, but was, for a few years.

Only a select few ( Harley Quinn, Bane, Mister Zsasz, Ventriloquist) would make it alongside the classics, while others (Gunhawk, Tally Man, Cornelius Stirk), after their few appearances of the time, would fade, unused into obscurity, I would say Lock-Up and Amygdala somewhere in-between.

Most new characters in general comic-dom have trouble catching on, that's not unique to the bat-mythos.

Still I liked Knightfall and NML a lot from the 90's, so like every other decade they have some good and some bad.

[T Hedge Coke]

The Nineties had Alan Grant, Norm Breyfogle, Jim Aparo, Peter Milligan, John Bolton, Chuck Dixon, Dennis O'Neil, and several other amazing talents on Batman comics.

[Mr. Holmes]

90s Batman was awesome. We had a really really solid line-up of creators, and headed by O'Neil as editor. Knightfall was really gimmicky, but that doesn't necessarily mean the story was't good. Not to mention, Dixon's Robin in the 90s was fun - reworking the Spiderman archetype to fit the Batman/Gotham world.

On the other hand, I think the 00s was a pretty crappy era for Batman up until Morrison took over.

[paulski]

Ehn, I really liked a lot of the Batman stuff in the 90's. I'd suggest there was just as much, if not more, crap in the 80's.

[Jody Garland]

Actually, I think I'd put the 50s as the worst Batman decade. I'm not against campy or anything- I've thoroughly enjoyed some Batman stories from that decade- but aside from a few stories, it just seems sort of there. Everything was formulaic.

But for someone like Batman, this isn't saying terribly much. He and Superman have gone through highs and lows every decade.

[Mr. Holmes]

Actually, I think I'd put the 50s as the worst Batman decade. I'm not against campy or anything- I've thoroughly enjoyed some Batman stories from that decade- but aside from a few stories, it just seems sort of there. Everything was formulaic.

But for someone like Batman, this isn't saying terribly much. He and Superman have gone through highs and lows every decade.

The 50s was okay I thought for its time, some weird sci-fi tales. I think Batman's low point was when they ended up trying to ape the 60s TV show.

[Agent_Dark]

90's Batman was awesome. It solidified Tim Drake and Helena Bertinelli, and gave us the Birds of Prey, Stephanie Brown and Cass Cain. Who cares if the villains didn't last - it gave us expanded Bat-Family heroes who did.

Robin, Nightwing, Birds of Prey, Azrael and Catwoman during the 90s were all pretty awesome reads.

[LetsGetNerdy]

Here is the 90s stuff I liked:

Knightfall
Bat. 551/552 - Ragman
Det. 693/694 - Systemic Shock
Det. 697-699 Deadbolt
Det. 726 - Fools Errand (Great Issue)
Det. 714/715 - A World for Burning
Det. 741 (Endgame)
Legends of the D.K. 125 (Falling Back)
And the Death of Gordon´s wife was a truly highlight in dramatic storytelling

That´s it. And that´s not much.

The rest... well... as I said bevor: I even dont remeber.

Contagion started strong but failed to keep it´s pace and endes boring.
No Mans Land - I simply dont like it. It´s a personal thing. I cant help - I was bored while reading.

[shark]

There's quite a bit to like from the 90s:

Grant-Breyfogle run continued in the early part

Kelly Jones-Doug Moench Batman run was freakin crazy

Legends of the Dark Knight (which is seriously underrated as a great Batman book) had tons of great stories like Gothic, Prey, Venom, Shaman, Faces, Hothouse, etc. Even if you didn't like what was going on with the Bat books during that time it mostly stayed out of continuity.

Chuck Dixon had what is probably the definitive run for Tim Drake Robin and Nightwing.

I've always had a soft spot for Knightfall (but not Knightsquest or Knightsend)

The Long Halloween (I'm not a huge fan of this but I can't deny it's influence)

Batman vs. Predator Ruled

Other miscellaneous things like the Annual with Two-Face's origin.

All in all I would say Batman fared a hell of a lot better than most other major comic book characters during the 90s.

I agree, Chuck Dixon's Robin was one of the reasons I got into comics again.

[darkseidpwns]

And It's not like the 00's gave us any new villains to brag about.Dr Hurt was cool but who expects him to return? he's used up both as villain and as a character.

Bane is still the last big new Batman villain.Hush sucks:evilsmile:

[Jim Thompson]

And It's not like the 00's gave us any new villains to brag about.Dr Hurt was cool but who expects him to return? he's used up both as villain and as a character.

Bane is still the last big new Batman villain.Hush sucks:evilsmile:Not a fan of Professor Pyg, eh?

Also, while not a villain in the truest sense of the term, perhaps, I really enjoyed the Red Hood as an antagonist for Batman.

[darkseidpwns]

Not a fan of Professor Pyg, eh?

Also, while not a villain in the truest sense of the term, perhaps, I really enjoyed the Red Hood as an antagonist for Batman.

I don't see how he'll be any different from Stirk,Zsasz,etc in the long run.People just won't support villains like him.

[Statham]

Nightwing lasted 151 issues and was only cancelled cause Dick became Batman.
Robin lasted 180 or so and only ended cause he became Red Robin
Azrael lasted 100 issues
Catwoman lasted 91
BOP lasted almost 140
Batgirl(Cassandra Cain) lasted 65 issues

The next volumes of those ongoings did'nt last as long

Azrael lasted 18 issues
Catwoman lasted 80 or so issues
Batgirl lasted 25
Red Robin lasted 28 something
BOP was less than 15

Now Catwoman,BOP and Nightwing have been relaunched again,lets see how long they last.

My numbers are'nt specific so if I'm a few issues down or up then don't nag.


Doesn't this really have to do more with DC repeatedly wanting to shake things up and the changing times? Less comics are being bought anyway and companies are less confident about letting a book with flagging sales carry on. That DC rebooted the Batman titles and then decided to reboot the entire universe is hardly the fault of Batgirl, Red Robin or BOP. The titles were never going to last as long because of management.

[Disco Pyg]

The nineties as an era for Batman comics is one that is very unfamiliar to me. Most of the stories I've been reading have either been the "classics" from the 80s or the modern stuff from Morrison/Snyder ect. aside from Long Halloween, Batman vs. Predator (which is much better than it has any right to be) and bits of No Man's Land. I am really enjoying No Man's Land though; just picked up the first volume of the new editions. It's a great concept, and I think writing it off because you know things will eventually go back to normal is missing the point somewhat. Comic storytelling is cyclical; things will always go back to the status quo sooner or later.

[Jim Thompson]

I don't see how he'll be any different from Stirk,Zsasz,etc in the long run.People just won't support villains like him.I guess we'll see. He seems off to a very promising beginning.

[Statham]

I don't see how he'll be any different from Stirk,Zsasz,etc in the long run.People just won't support villains like him.

I disagree. I think that Pyg is one of the strongest attempts at creating a classic-style Batman rogue in years. Pyg has a distinct voice, a distinct look, a distinct gimmick in the Dollotrons, and whilst he obviously hasn't been used nearly as much, I think he's still a hell of a lot more interesting than any new rogue in recent memory.

[dancj]

The fact that you dislike it because you couldn't understand it, is kinda unfair, and somewhat childish (no offence)

It seems like a perfectly reasonable reason to not like something. That's why I disliked the final volume of The Invisibles and War of the Gods. It's hard to enjoy something you don't understand. (but admittedly not always impossible).

[dancj]

Knightfall, Kingtquest, Knightsend (to a lesser extent) and No-Man's-Land were great.

The stuff in-between not so much. Legacy, Contagion, Cataclysm and the rest of the stuff I read in that period was all pretty mediocre.

[dancj]

Double post

[Fonecrusher]

While I agree the 90s weren't all that great (one of the reasons I dropped comics altogether for a couple of years) it did have a few high points Batwise;

1. The introduction of Bane as badass, back when he was the man who broke the bat, before he became the biggest jobber in Gotham next to Killer Croc, at least in recent times he's been set on the road to redemption thanks to The Secret Six.

2. The solidification of Nightwing as a great hero on his own.

3. The creation of Azrael, yeah his time as Batman sucked, but Jean Paul Valley was a great Azrael and paved the way for Michael Lane to later assume the identity.

[Blue_Beetle]

Compared to some stuff I've read of the 90s, Knightfall wasn't bad at all. Plus in the 90s we got Kelley Jones' Batman and I don't think that was a bad thing.

[LetsGetNerdy]

For one aspect my 90s critic may falls a bit short. I have to admit that, even if I dont like that decade in Batman in general, that this years have defined and developed the Batman as we know and like him today.

DC gave a lot of room for experiments, was brave enough to work with a lot of new artworks, was open for new ways of complex storytelling. Its clear that if you give room for experiments and exploring new ways not everything works or may you have always the risk of polarization.

[LetsGetNerdy]

And lets be honest: everything in Batman during the 90s was a lot better than Superman's hairstyling in these years!!

[kevink31593]

Yeah, new-villains-wise, mostly a bunch of psychos, vigilantes, and overly trigger-happy mercenaries.

Heyyy, anyone noticed, many of the Post-Crisis created Bat-Villains, are quite killed off? Ratcatcher, KGBeast, NKVDemon, Magpie, Trigger Twins, King Snake, Lynx, Gunbunny, Silver Monkey, Hellhound, Orca, Lady Spellbinder, Ventrilo-well, not anymore for him, but was, for a few years.

Only a select few ( Harley Quinn, Bane, Mister Zsasz, Ventriloquist) would make it alongside the classics, while others (Gunhawk, Tally Man, Cornelius Stirk), after their few appearances of the time, would fade, unused into obscurity, I would say Lock-Up and Amygdala somewhere in-between.


So what? There were a lot of villains created in the Golden and Silver Ages that don't show up anymore either. For example, when was the last time The Collector, Kangaroo Kiley, or Lars Veking appeared in a comic book? (check your Batman encyclopedia if you think I'm making these up :smile:) Every era has had new characters that don't stick around.

I personally like the fact that there are villains that are defeated by Batman, never to be seen again. Can't we allow Batman to have some victories? How would he feel if 100% of the villains he captures end up back on the streets? It's bad enough the "famous" ones break out of prison over and over again. :smile:

[deadboy80]

Batman in the 90s was so much better than anything in the last 10 or 12 years. Everyone praises the last few years of Batman and I just don't get it. All that's been done was they time displaced him and made him a father. Oh and tried to make him as infalibke as possible. During the early and mid 90s they actualy made him a detective, he had to solve the crimes. Recently, up until the relaunch anyway as soon as a crime was committed he already knew who it was and had them wrapped up with out any thought. There has been very little detective in batman in a long time.

[ForeverYoung8]

Along with most here, I really enjoyed most of the 90's "events", and I was a big fan of the move from blue-gray to a mostly black costume.

One of my favorite things from that era, though, were the many 2-part stories we got. And these were written by the main creators at the time, and not just fill-in guys while Grant / Dixon / etc were on a break.

Everything these days is at least 6 issues (for trades), or longer...in the case of Morrison and Snyder, this is a good thing. But sometimes, it's nice to just have a little 2-issue Poison Ivy story, for example, written by the main writer and not a fill-in. Dini seemed to approach this a bit with his 'Tec a few years ago, if I'm remembering right, but it still wasn't quite the same because there was still an underlying arc through it all. I miss some of the 1 (or 2) and done stories by the big guys.

[carabas]

Let´s be honest: From Knightfall to the Year 2000 Batman was a mess.Well, it started out pretty strong on Knightfall, then flaundered a bit with KnightQuest, before recovering with, eh, KnightsEnd, was it? Great ending to that saga.


It all started very bad with all this sick and boring crap that Jean Paul became Batman (still one of the worst part of Batman History).You do know you were not supposed to like him, right?


Then all this excessive crossover behavoir: "Buy Azrael, Buy Shadow of the Bat, Buy Catwoman, Buy Robin, Buy this and that and send us your money because we are trying to outsmart you with a lot of comics you dont like but you are buying now by your hunger for Batman Storys." It really sucked!I don't really remember this at all. Some of us do have impulse control and did not actually have to buy each and every book.


Contagion... well... hmmm... kind of not bad but also not great. It just tried too hard to jump on the Mid 90ties trend of epedemic thrillers in movies and novels.When you start by saying it wasn't bad, then it really should not be mentioned in a lecture on why that era of Batman sucked.


And at the end this boring and meaningless (and endless) Cataclysm/After Shock/No Mans Land-Mess. This whole No Mans Land run was so boring - I never was so bored with a comic series before. Batman always was a urban character. He works best when is his fighting crime in an urban enviroment.Gues what. During No Man's Land, Batman fought crime. In an urban environment no less.
And if you thought it was boring back then, you've had 15 years or so since then to mature your taste. Give it another go, you might be surprised. (don't bother with Cataclysm, it's the pits).


And it this whole No Mans Land was also so meaningless because everybody knew that Gotham would be rebuild. So nearly 100 issues of drama about nothing? Boring!The exact same argument can probably be made about your favourite story ever.
Joker(s up to no good and Batman's out to stop him. Oh gosh, how will this story end, the suspense is killing me. At least NML did somehting new.


I dont like Batman in the 90ties. I think the whole series was in a deep identity crisis and did not know where to got. It all get tremendous better when the writers and artists remembered the basic strength of Batman: Fighting crime in an dark and grim enviroment with a dark and grim Batman.


The 2000 to 2005/6 run in Batman was the best ever. So far above the 90ties. It was simply the best comic series ever with the highest level of story telling and artwork.
That's parts two eras.
1999-2002: No Man's Land followed by the Rucka/Brubaker runs on Detective and Batman, culminating in Murderer/Fugitive.

And all of the character development in that run was all pissed away a mere two months later in Hush.

Then we got the damnable universal reset-button that was Infinite Crisis. I liked Commisioner Akins, dammit. And the Gotham Central GCPD.


Well... until this everything goes down the drain agaon with this whole Crisis/RIP stuff.Hang on there. What exactly went down the drain with RIP/Final Crisis?

[LetsGetNerdy]

Hang on there. What exactly went down the drain with RIP/Final Crisis?

I think the writers get lost in their own universe. It happens sometimes. So the reboot was really the best thing they can do.

I can only say for myself: I simply did not understand it anymore

[darkseidpwns]

While I agree the 90s weren't all that great (one of the reasons I dropped comics altogether for a couple of years) it did have a few high points Batwise;

1. The introduction of Bane as badass, back when he was the man who broke the bat, before he became the biggest jobber in Gotham next to Killer Croc, at least in recent times he's been set on the road to redemption thanks to The Secret Six.

2. The solidification of Nightwing as a great hero on his own.

3. The creation of Azrael, yeah his time as Batman sucked, but Jean Paul Valley was a great Azrael and paved the way for Michael Lane to later assume the identity.

Jobber=someone who loses all the time to people whom he should logically beat,Bane has only jobbed to Tommy Jagger.He lost to Ra's in a sword fight(emphasis on the word sword,it would've looked stupid if Bane bested Ra's in those circumstances) and got his ass kicked by KG Beast when he was injured and in a state of venom withdrawal,but when he returned to peak form he destroyed Beast.
His fights with Azrael have been blown out of proportion,he won the first time,lost the second due to venom withdrawal,won the third,stalemated the 4th time(a fight he was actually winning) and lost the fifth time cause he slipped when Gotham was struck by the earthquake.So its 1-1-1-0-1.

He's beaten Robin and King Snake,lost to Batman only once and stalemated 2 other times,beaten Nightwing and Croc twice as well.Pwned Catman to boot.

His redemption storyline started in Gotham Knights not SS.

[thehod]

Batman has had something good going for him in almost every decade that his books have been in publication, but if you had to single out a bad decade for him, it'd probably be the 1950s.

Which is my favourite period of Batman.

"Batman! You mean you can breathe the oxygen in the water, but can't survive on the surface?"
"Yes, Robin. I've become a human "fish""

C'mon!!

How can anyone not want to read a comic with that on the cover?

[carabas]

Which is my favourite period of Batman.

"Batman! You mean you can breathe the oxygen in the water, but can't survive on the surface?"
"Yes, Robin. I've become a human "fish""

C'mon!!

How can anyone not want to read a comic with that on the cover?
It's less fun when that kind of Batman stories are all that are on offer.

On a completely unrelated note, it's really unsettling seeing Hugh Laurie like that now he's found medical fame.

[Captain Jim]

Every decade of comics had its ups and downs; the 90's no more or less so than any other. That being said, there was a lot of great stuff going on in the 90's...

Alan Grant on Shadow of the Bat
Chuck Dixon on Nightwing, Robin and BOP
Knightfall

and one of my absolute favorite arcs ever written... No Man's Land!

[manymade1]

The 90's was the best year for the Batman family. Especially with Chuck Dixon on Nightwing and Robin. Although with bats himself the only two storylines im a fan of are Knightfall and No Man's Land.

[Chad]

I think the decade started off well - Grant and Breyfogle on Batman; Peter Milligan on Tec; a lenghty succession of great tales from LOTDK; but the 90's was also the decade for:

1. Batman as Urban Legend. From about 1995 onwards, DC tried really hard to make readers believe that Batman could be in a position to irrevocably influence the lives of every citizen in Gotham night after night while remaining unnoticed. In spite of being an unworkable premise from the start, DC still tried very forcefully to convince readers that Batman had never been captured on film, been seen by anyone who could be considered a credible witness, and never once appeared during the day. You could no longer have Batman stop a group of criminals without one of them at least declaring something along the lines "But...but I thought he wuz just a legend...made up by the tabloids"; never have him appear anywhere without an internal monologue explaining how security cameras have been disabled or potential witnesses bypassed; you could no longer even have someone mention "Batman" without the characters getting onto a lengthy tangent about how the guy doesn't exist, how the signal is used solely as a psychological deterrent to crime, how only the insane claim to have seen him, etc, etc that wouldn't have to be written into every story if the writers weren't trying so hard to convince readers that this concept makes sense. The Batman as Urban Legend was the Bat-book equivalent of the Super-Mullet in the Supertitles of this period.

2. Batman/Spawn. Absolutely, without a doubt, not just the worst Frank Miller Batman story ever, but the worst Batman one as well.

3. Neverending storylines. I liked Knightfall. It holds up well and I appreciate how DC built this story up. They not only introduced Bane as a credible threat, but also took steps to show that Batman was running on fumes not only physically but psychologically in preceeding issues of Batman and Tec. However, it just didn't end. KnightQuest, KnightSearch, KnightsEnd. Batman not even making an appearance in the 500th issue of his own title; the books losing Jim Aparo and Norm Breyfogle at the same time; Batman getting his broken back fixed because his doctor just happened to have magical powers that came out of nowhere. And the story was supposed to be about how Batman should not be a darker character that many fans were apparently demanding he be. In fact, the storyline finally closed with Bruce Wayne accepting that he had been driving himself too hard recently and needed to take a step back from the abyss. The final shot had him running towards a sunrise. Yet, he came back darker (literally in an all-black suit) and more obsessed than ever (building satelite Bat-Caves all over the place and, as mentioned above, absorbed by the notion that he must not be seen by anyone anywhere). It really seemed as if DC didn't know what to do with the character at this point and decided to forget the development that the character had begun to undergo. Knightfall led to Contagion which led to Legacy (or "to Legacy which led to Contagion" - the stories were so similar that I can't recall the order) which led to No Man's Land which lasted a year - or maybe more. I dropped the titles sometime during the Earthquake storyline, but I remember it starting off with Cataclysm then leading into Aftershock then into the Mr Wayne goes to Washington then Quakemaster shows up - did the year long storyline include these bits or did it start once NoMansLand part one began?

4. I never liked the new-suit. I described it as all-black above for lack of a better description, but really, it was never all-black which admittedly, would have been cool. I guess for the same reason that led to Batman's costume being blue and grey from the start, Batman could never really be colored all-black. Instead it was usually some weird combination of blackish/blue on purple, or blue on grey but without the trunks which never looked right, or greyish black on blueish/black. The colors of his outfit just always seemed bleed into some pastelish, dullish color.

5. Batman as a douchebag. "Gotham is My City! Mine!!!" "You have to earn my approval!" "When I want your help I'll ask for it". Ugh.

The post-1993 period wasn't without its positives - Batman was great in Grant Morrison's JLA (though the BatGod approach to the chararcter did get eventually out of hand) and even though Batman developing plans to do deal with the team if the need ever arose was symptomatic of his suddenly unexplainable out of control neuroses (he had files on how to stop the Flash but never bothered to come up with any reasonable idea on how to handle the Joker or Two-Face?) I have to begrudgingly admit, Mark Waid did tell a well-written story. We also saw the start of the Batman: Black and White series in 1996, a few nice Zero Hour tie-ins in 1994 (though what that series did to his continuity is another problem I have with the decade), and I'm sure there are a few stories here and there that I missed out on by giving up on the character about 15 years ago, but yeah, I'd have to agree that the 90's was the worst decade for Batman (oh, and those crappy films too - Batman Forever and Batman and Robin).

[Vil_Dee]

Knightfall through NML was one of the best periods in Batman's history for me.

2000-2005, was the worst Batman comics I've ever read.

I didn't really like much Batman stuff earlier than the 80's, but I can give the early stuff a pass because it was just too outdated for my taste.

The 2000-2005 stuff though had no excuse. It sucked with the force of a million dysons.

[T Hedge Coke]

Anarky, Knightfall, and Batgod in the JLA. It really was a very good decade.

[LetsGetNerdy]

3. Neverending storylines.

That was what I hated most in this decade.

Comics storys work best within the range of 3 up to 6 issues.

If you step over this line you create an reading experience of: "I like it but I also will be happy when its over." instead of "I hate that its over because I like it!"

[T Hedge Coke]

Comics storys work best within the range of 3 up to 6 issues.

If you step over this line you create an reading experience of: "I like it but I also will be happy when its over." instead of "I hate that its over because I like it!"

I'd wager that's not true for most readers. Otherwise, the bestselling comics (English language market or otherwise) wouldn't be fairly lengthy comics. Enigma, Planetary, Banana Fish, The Filth, 52, Ghost in the Shell, Top 10, Gravel, Preacher, Watchmen, Jungle Action (starring the Black Panther), The Invisibles, Kirby's Fourth World, various Crises, heck even Knightfall would've been miserably a waste if it was limited to three or six regular-length issues.

War Games could've been shorter and tighter, though, and Year One would've been worse for having more issues. It depends on the story, the atmosphere, the pacing and the point.

[LetsGetNerdy]

I think 3 to 6 is a perfect range for comics. Up to 12 issues for a maximum.

6 issues can be easily read within an evening while relaxing and just chill (I guess that´s why TPB became so polular).

And if you take into account that most series are published monthly it takes 6 month to tell a story. If you go up to 12 or beyond you have stick a year or more for the story (wich is may fine for the publisher but a very long time span for the reader).

But of course if a stroy is the hell of a read I may can take 1.000 issues, I would not compain about it.

For example Knight fall works because it has a lot of subplots concluded withing 2 or 3 issues. In general it was nothing different than all that what Batman was doing the last 20 years - hunting down scary crazy villains - but with an overall story of Bane hunting down Batman.

Every medium of story telling has a natural perfect frame or timing withing it works best - movies (90 - 120min), theather (3 - 5 acts), art (golden ratio), novels (300 - 600 pages). You will always find great and classic exception of this rules but the main part of successful storytelling happens within this range.

And I think that the best range of comic story telling is to find in the range of 3 or 6 up to 12 issues.

[CaptainBarbel]

The Long Halloween and Dark Victory were written in the 90s

[LetsGetNerdy]

The Long Halloween and Dark Victory were written in the 90s

We are talking about the main series "Batman" and "Detective Comics"

In general there are always a few gem in the dirt. My statement was: This decade was very weak in general - not that every Batman comic during this time was a failure.

I think that the creators didnt know exactly where to go from Knightfall to a new and more up to date Batman.

[carabas]

We are talking about the main series "Batman" and "Detective Comics"No we weren't. Maybe you were, but that was just you.

[Statham]

That was what I hated most in this decade.

Comics storys work best within the range of 3 up to 6 issues.

If you step over this line you create an reading experience of: "I like it but I also will be happy when its over." instead of "I hate that its over because I like it!"

The current trend of six issue stories or 3-6 issues to make a story is relatively new; And at the same time, they haven't stopped doing this 'neverending story' thing, really. Look at Morrison's Batman, which you can run a line through several titles on. Fraction's Iron Man, which has been running with a plot since issue one and is now bringing the pieces together. Brubaker's Captain America is the same. The concept of an ongoing story is still in place, they're just assigning the stories six-issue titles that focus on particular elements.

[Uzisnoopy]

I disagree the the 90s was Batman's worst decade.

Sure, Knightfall is overrated, but NML wasn't bad. Also, both Alan Grant and Norm Breyfogle and Chuck Dixon and Graham Nolan's Detective Comics runs were both enjoyable.

I would argue that the 60s was Batman's worst decade in terms of creative direction.

[RubberLotus]

Hell, no.

To this very day, I love the 90s Bat-comics.

Moench/Jones, Dixon/Nolan, Grant/Breyfogle... Pure, unadulterated awesomeness. Actually funny Joker stories! Batman with a sense of humor! Just the right balance of detective work and violence! Ra's al Ghul actually halfway likable! Subplots that actually know where they're going! Killer Croc getting character depth! Riddler finally gets an interesting origin! Scarecrow-induced hallucinations looking genuinely unsettling for the first time! None of that unceasing pessimism and cynicism found in the 2000s Batbooks!

In a way, NML was a perfect transition between the 90s and the utter crud that was the early/mid 2000s. Started out strong, ended with one of the worst Joker stories known to man. Almost up there with A Death in the Family in sheer awfulness.

[jgiannantoni05]

Every decade of comics had its ups and downs; the 90's no more or less so than any other. That being said, there was a lot of great stuff going on in the 90's...
I agree with this sentiment. People want to build up one decade or tear down another, but the real truth is that every modern Batman decade (70s-present) has a similar overall balance of significant ups and downs.

To address the 90's specifically, to its credit, we got LOTDK, Long Halloween, Shadow, Dixon, Alan Grant, Tim, Knightfall, Mad Love, Bane, Zsasz, etc. But there were significant creative lulls too.

[LetsGetNerdy]

Mad Love was great.

I dont like the cartoon style, but it is an highly intelligent comic.

What about The Batman Adventure comic series? Is it worth a closer look?

The cartoon style kept me away from it so far. I prefer realistic art in comic.

[RubberLotus]

Mad Love was great.

I dont like the cartoon style, but it is an highly intelligent comic.

What about The Batman Adventure comic series? Is it worth a closer look?

The cartoon style kept me away from it so far. I prefer realistic art in comic.

In my opinion? Heck, yeah.

A sneak peek. (http://about-faces.livejournal.com/27471.html) If you find storylines of this sort uninteresting, you probably won't like it much.

[BillCarson]

That was what I hated most in this decade.

Comics storys work best within the range of 3 up to 6 issues.

If you step over this line you create an reading experience of: "I like it but I also will be happy when its over." instead of "I hate that its over because I like it!"


Doug and I made our run separate from the other Bat-titles as much as we could.This was for a few reasons.The most important was respect for those who didn’t want to buy several different titles a month to follow the action in just one.If they didn’t like us,they could drop it and not have it affect reading the others.If they did like it,they could recommend it to others and those new people could buy it without the burden of having to follow a bunch of other titles.The main reason probably, was Doug and I wanted to do shorter stories,and occasional one shots.
We were told then they weren’t keen on this, but due to Doug and Dennys relationship it would be allowed.
After about a year Doug was told not to expect the stuff to get collected and reprinted,as it wasn’t part of any mega story events. This didn’t change our determination to continue doing the book the way we had been.

Read the Moench/Jones run

[RoughNTumble]

who in their right mind would say the 90's, when the 50's and 60's exist?

[thehod]

who in their right mind would say the 90's, when the 50's and 60's exist?

Maybe because the 50s and 60s weren't terrible. Just different.

Personally the Neal Adams era is my least favourite and the oddball Zebra Batman period of the 50s is my favourite.

Horses for courses.

[Lee-Sensei]

For me the best decades for Batman were the 80's and the 00's. There were some things in the 90's that I disliked, but I wouldn't call it the worst decade. For me the 50's Batman was the worst one.

[thehod]

For me the 50's Batman was the worst one.

Boooooo!!!!!

[immortality]

I thought the Knightfall event and No Man's Land were great when collected into graphic novels. I can see your point when trying to read individual comics, that would have been frustrating...

[byron lomax]

The 90s is not my favourite decade for Batman - I agree with pretty much everything Chad wrore earlier in the thread. I love the early 90s, with G/B Batman, Milligan 'Tec and early LotDK - it feels like a continuation of the late 80s. And then comes Knightfall. A good epic in its own right, but one that ultimately went on far too long and set the scene for more tedious mega-arcs.

One aspect of the 90s was the development and expansion of the "Bat-family" - not a bad thing in itself, but I much prefer solo Batman. Just a personal preference really.

Despite its popularity among fans, the Moench/Jones run is not among my favourites. The art has some nice moments, but the over-expositional writing is a real turn-off. There's a very cartoony, artificial feeling to the whole run, and I appreciate that works for some people, but not for me.

I guess it's telling that the Rucka/Martinbourgh run from the early 00's is the first run I really enjoyed since Milligan and early SotB. The Batman Adventures somics based on the animated series (especially the first two runs by Puckett/Parobeck and then Templeton/Burchett) were the best runs of the post-Knightfall 90s era.

[kevink31593]

I thought the Knightfall event and No Man's Land were great when collected into graphic novels. I can see your point when trying to read individual comics, that would have been frustrating...

I read both Knightfall and No Man's Land as the "individual chapters" as they were released back in the 90s, and let me tell you: it was the opposite of frustrating in my experience. It was fun to read the stories as they came out and become invested in the story. I eagerly anticipated each new issue. In fact, Knightfall is responsible for hooking me on Batman comics, shortly after I had seen the animated series and become a Batman fan.

The 90s was the best decade for Batman in my opinion.

[The Frozen Reptile]

Think you just described comics in general during the 90s

Thank the Force that comics survived out of the 90s. Most books were mediocre at best. The excess and speculation turned off a lot of people.

The last two years before the Silver Age were a bad time for Batman as well.

[LetsGetNerdy]

Some interesting facts and thoughts about the comic market in the 90s:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/773625.html

[Venomous Mask]

Some interesting facts and thoughts about the comic market in the 90s:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/773625.html

This quote stuck out for me:

Once the market crash happened things began to slowly focus on good stories, both drawn and written.

I would heavily dispute this.

[LetsGetNerdy]

I got no neutral proof or evidence for it because entertainment (especially comics) are a matter of taste - but I would defenitly say that comics grow up and became more mature in the years around 1998 - 2008.

[LetsGetNerdy]

Regarding the 90s Series "The Batman Adventures":

I downloaded some issues on Comixology. But its not my type of comic. I dont like the cartoon style. I gave up after the second issue.

[RubberLotus]

I got no neutral proof or evidence for it because entertainment (especially comics) are a matter of taste - but I would defenitly say that comics grow up and became more mature in the years around 1998 - 2008.

Eh. My mileage varied.

More cynical? Definitely. But more mature...?

[Venomous Mask]

Eh. My mileage varied.

More cynical? Definitely. But more mature...?

Pretty much. There was som maturing, but ultimately, I felt that there was far too mcuh of a desire to roll back the excesses of the nineties but keep the "grittiness" of the period that we got a bunch of stories that seemed to wallow in their own depression.

[OverMaster]

Regarding the 90s Series "The Batman Adventures":

I downloaded some issues on Comixology. But its not my type of comic. I dont like the cartoon style. I gave up after the second issue.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/001/582/picard-facepalm.jpg?1240934151

[RubberLotus]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/001/582/picard-facepalm.jpg?1240934151

Now, now. Let us apply a franchise-appropriate image:

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz309/RubberLotus/GordonFacepalm.jpg

[Chad]

who in their right mind would say the 90's, when the 50's and 60's exist?

Who would place the era of Dick Sprang, some of the best Two-Face and Joker stories, giant props, the beginning of the Superman/Batman team, tales such as "The First Batman!", "The Man who Ended Batman's Career!", "Am I Really Batman?", "The Thrilling Escapes of Batman and Robin!", "The Gorilla Boss of Gotham City!", "The Origin of the Bat-Cave!", the bubbletop Batmobile, the introduction of Killer Moth, Prof Milo, Mr Freeze, and Clayface II on a list of the worst anything?

As for the 1960's, this is the era which brought back the Riddler and Scarecrow after a 20 year hiatus; gave us Carmine Infantino; introduced Poison Ivy, Barbara Gordon, and Blockbuster; produced stories such as "The Fantastic Dr No-Face!", "Batman and Robin - Imposters!", "The Joker's Greatest Triumph!", "The Second Batman and Robin Team!", "One Bullet Too Many!", "The Day Batman Sold Out!", "Batman's Gangland Guardians", "Gateway to Death!"; saw the debut of Frank Robbins, Irv Novick, Neal Adams, Denny O Neil, Gil Kane, and Bob Brown on the character; and made Batman the co-star of Brave and the Bold. It also gave us the Adam West series.

Anyone unfamilar with these periods really have no idea what they're missing out on.

[thehod]

Regarding the 90s Series "The Batman Adventures":

I downloaded some issues on Comixology. But its not my type of comic. I dont like the cartoon style. I gave up after the second issue.

Shame, because its the best Bat title of the 90s by some considerable distance.

[thehod]

Who would place the era of Dick Sprang, some of the best Two-Face and Joker stories, giant props, the beginning of the Superman/Batman team, tales such as "The First Batman!", "The Man who Ended Batman's Career!", "Am I Really Batman?", "The Thrilling Escapes of Batman and Robin!", "The Gorilla Boss of Gotham City!", "The Origin of the Bat-Cave!", the bubbletop Batmobile, the introduction of Killer Moth, Prof Milo, Mr Freeze, and Clayface II on a list of the worst anything?

Hear, Hear.

Anyone who isn't just a little bit excited and curious as to the answer this cover poses is just dead inside...

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/6060/162317-18058-112358-1-detective-comics_super.jpg

[suss2it]

For me the best decades for Batman were the 80's and the 00's. There were some things in the 90's that I disliked, but I wouldn't call it the worst decade. For me the 50's Batman was the worst one.Aside from what Frank Miller did, what are some other notable Batman stories from 80s?

[Venomous Mask]

Hear, Hear.

Anyone who isn't just a little bit excited and curious as to the answer this cover poses is just dead inside...

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/6060/162317-18058-112358-1-detective-comics_super.jpg

Robin is either color blind or in heavy denial.

[theloupgaroukid]

Aside from what Frank Miller did, what are some other notable Batman stories from 80s?

Mike W. Barr and Alan Davis on Detective Comics in the issues preceding 'Year Two' and the new continuity, 'Batman' #400, 'Brave and the Bold' #197, 'Ten Nights of the Beast' with the sweet Mike Zeck covers... I'm also partial to everything that Doug Moench and Don Newton did on Batman but that is because those were the books that introduced me to comics back when I was a young and impressionable youth.

[Disco Pyg]

Aside from what Frank Miller did, what are some other notable Batman stories from 80s?

Arkham Asylum, Killing Joke, Cult, A Death in the Family, Son of the Demon. Probably others I'm not thinking of too.

[T Hedge Coke]

Aside from what Frank Miller did, what are some other notable Batman stories from 80s?

Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth
The Killing Joke
Son of the Demon
The earliest Anarky stories
and, stuff I'm probably not dating in my head very effectively.

[byron lomax]

Aside from what Frank Miller did, what are some other notable Batman stories from 80s?

The entire Grant/Breyfogle run on Detective, plus Barr/Davis as mentioned above, Blind Justice, The Cult, most of the Starlin/Aparo run on Batman, plus that issue where he fought four ninjas in a mansion - awesome!

I'm not overly familiar with the first half of the 80s, but hear good things about it.

[dancj]

I think the decade started off well - Grant and Breyfogle on Batman; Peter Milligan on Tec; a lenghty succession of great tales from LOTDK; but the 90's was also the decade for:
Funny - I'd list every item in your list as a positive.


1. Batman as Urban Legend.
I know I'm in the minority, but I loved this. Batman works much better as an Urban Legend.


2. Batman/Spawn. Absolutely, without a doubt, not just the worst Frank Miller Batman story ever, but the worst Batman one as well.
Or a glorious inconsequential bit of fun. It's silly, but it's funny as hell. That's Spawn/Batman though. Batman/Spawn: War Devil on the other hand was terrible.


3. Neverending storylines.
The big epics (when done well) are great. On the other hand I don't think any single issue Batman stories have really grabbed me since Peter Milligan's classic run.


4. I never liked the new-suit. I described it as all-black above for lack of a better description, but really, it was never all-black <snip> Instead it was usually some weird combination of blackish/blue on purple, or blue on grey but without the trunks which never looked right, or greyish black on blueish/black. The colors of his outfit just always seemed bleed into some pastelish, dullish color.
It was black - that was how the colourists coloured in black.


5. Batman as a douchebag. "Gotham is My City! Mine!!!" "You have to earn my approval!" "When I want your help I'll ask for it". Ugh.
Great!

[Lorendiac]

I'm just reacting to the original post here . . .

I think the 2000s deserve to be seriously considered for the proud title of "worst Batman decade."

After all, the 2000s saw such nonsense as "Bruce Wayne: Fugitive," "Hush," the entire Winick run, and the "Batman R.I.P." and "Battle for the Cowl" stuff at the end of the decade. And then there was the "Death and the Maidens" miniseries, as well as Frank Miller's "Dark Knight Strikes Again" and the coming of his "All-Star Batman" material. (Those last two items in particular are major black marks for any decade!)

Not to mention the whole "Brother Eye and the OMACs" thing being Batman's fault as we went into "Infinite Crisis." Also the miserable way he had treated Cassandra Cain (by totally ignoring her) for a solid year during the gap between "Infinite Crisis" and "One Year Later." And the way Grant Morrison handled his Pet Obnoxious Character, Damian, in the little jerk's early appearances. And on a related note, we have the Devin Grayson run on Nightwing and the Adam Beechen run on Robin and the incredible pointlessness (though I haven't read this one myself) of the 2009 miniseries "Oracle: The Cure."

And how could I fail to mention "War Games" and "War Crimes," and what they did (or attempted to do until Chuck Dixon straightened it out years later) to the characters of Stephanie Brown and Leslie Thompkins?

P.S. I've read precious little of Lieberman's long run on "Gotham Knights," but I have the impression I'm luckier that way.

[carabas]

It was black - that was how the colourists coloured in black.And stricktly speaking, it always had been black. Blue is just how colourists did black in days of yore (see also Superman and Bruce Wayne's hair).

[dancj]

And stricktly speaking, it always had been black. Blue is just how colourists did black in days of yore (see also Superman and Bruce Wayne's hair).
Good point.

Though at some point it actually started being coloured blue to actually mean blue - which is why they were able to move back to black and have it actually be a change.

[Jody Garland]

Hear, Hear.

Anyone who isn't just a little bit excited and curious as to the answer this cover poses is just dead inside...

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/6060/162317-18058-112358-1-detective-comics_super.jpg

Man, I've read that issue and the explanation is stupid as hell. Makes me sad- I was really hoping for some crazy Silver Age stuff, not what we got. That's just one example though, so I'm not hatin'.

[thehod]

Man, I've read that issue and the explanation is stupid as hell. Makes me sad- I was really hoping for some crazy Silver Age stuff, not what we got. That's just one example though, so I'm not hatin'.

It was the Silver Age.

All the explinations were as stupid as hell, but it wasn't about the explinations, it was about the journey getting there.

Give it a few years, and Geoff Johns will have Rainbow Batmen running around Gotham puking blood and firing green beams out of his back side.

[theloupgaroukid]

I think the 2000s deserve to be seriously considered for the proud title of "worst Batman decade."

After all, the 2000s saw such nonsense as "Bruce Wayne: Fugitive," "Hush," the entire Winick run...

I agree with much of what you cite as "bad" Batman stories but I will fight you to stress the awesomeness of 'Dark Knight Strikes Again'!:tongue:

[cgh]

The '80s were cool, as were part of the '70s (I have only read these eras in collections, mind you). Denny O'Neil, Neal Adams, Marshall Rogers, Don Newton/Dan Adkins, lots of great stuff. Plus of course the classic '80s runs everyone else mentioned.

The '90s weren't so great. I stopped reading most comics then, just collecting weird independent and European stuff (Enki Bilal, Moebius, etc.) American comics were pretty dumb, for the most part.

As for the 2000s, unlike most people I liked All-Star Batman and Robin a lot and I wish Miller would finish it. The art in Hush is fantastic, even if the story falls down a bit. Everything Grant Morrison did with Batman was just crazy good.

And now, in the 2010s, we are in a new Golden Age of sorts. There are so many great creators at work now, DC is killing it and in direct contrast to the '90s, there are more awesome Image titles than I can count.

[rpi]

Not at all. No Man's Land and Knightfall are two stories I love. Batman really took off in the JLA during the '90s. At this point, I'd say Alan Grant, Chuck Dixon, and Grant Morrison are the primary influences for the incarnation of Batman we've had over the past 20 years, and they all did most or all of their work in that decade. Plus, it gave us the fleshed out version of Tim Drake, who is far and away the best Robin so far. The Animated Batman stories were friggin' brilliant.

[Doesitmatter]

Totally disagree. The 90's were a great Batman time. You're focusing only on the crossovers but both Robin and Nightwing launched their ongoing series during the 90's and I loved Chuck Dixon and Graham Nolan's run on Detective.

IMO, the 80's were more of a mess in the main books, even though that decade gave us Dark Knight Returns, Arkham Asylum and Killing Joke.

[Jono11]

Yeah, everyone acts like the 90s were awful, and they were--at Marvel. But at DC, other than a few screw-ups early in the decade when they were trying to ape the commercial success and creative bankruptcy of Marvel and Image, the 90s were one of the best periods in DC's history, creatively speaking.

[Deason]

I think the whole era of Denny O'Neil's editorship was probably the longest, strongest period the Batman line has ever had. Many posts above have listed some of the numerous highlights, but from Year One to NML, even the worst of the few mis-steps were no worse than all but the very best stories the early 2000's offered.

[Simbob4000]

The 90s gave us Batman: The Animated Series, which fixed a lot of Batman's rogues gallery, that in the comics just sucked.

[mathew101281]

The 90s gave us Batman: The Animated Series, which fixed a lot of Batman's rogues gallery, that in the comics just sucked.

Exactly, and for that reason alone you can't say the 90's sucked.

[batGRRRl4ever]

Yup, the bat-verse had screwed the pooch for that decade.

[NewMutant]

The 90s rocked for the most part, Batman is included in that.

[Mr. Holmes]

I prefer the 90s to the current Batman line.

[dupersuper]

Yeah, everyone acts like the 90s were awful

Not every one, just those not reading triangle era Superman, Grant/Moench/Dixon Batman, Morrison/Waid/Kelly JLA, JL: Year 1, Waid Flash and Captain America, Kingdom Come, Transmet, Sandman, Preacher, Hitman, Busieks Avengers and Astro City, Marvels, PAD Hulk/Supergirl/Young Justice/Spidey/Aquaman/B5/Star Trek, Robinson Starman, Golden Age, Stars&STRIPE, Empire, Morrison Animal Man, Doom Patrol and Invisibles, Lucifer, Death minis, Books of Magic, Superman Adventures, Batman Adventures, Icon, Static, Impulse, Dixons Robin, Peyers Hourman, Gerard Jones GL books, Perez Wonder Woman, JLI, Priests Steel...

[LifeFirst]

Nobody mentioned anything about Robin?

Robin's comic series was great, Chuck Dixon was writing some top-notch material at the time. It was better than Batman, and Birds of Prey was great as well.

But I think Alan Grant really plagued Batman in the 90s, I mean this guy......probably the worst Batman writer ever. Can he ever write a serious story?? I'm starting to think that the Last Arkham was written by someone else and not him.



The 90s gave us Batman: The Animated Series, which fixed a lot of Batman's rogues gallery, that in the comics just sucked.

As much as I liked the Animated Series, I don't think it can come close to the comics. I mean, I'm rewatching some of the episodes now and it just feels very under-whelming right now. You know stories like The Last Arkham.....you really think there's an episode in Batman:TAS that comes close to that? I know the comics can have mature themes that the TAS can't, but the whole TAS was like Batman-lite to me.

And also, I thought Bane was written so much better in the comics than in the show. I mean the show gave him no backstory, just him showing up one day claming to be some assassin, but in the comics you know almost everything about him watching him grow up in prison and stuff. I mean why can't the show do something similar but just tone down the violence? You get what I mean?

[batman_pwns]

Nobody mentioned anything about Robin?

Are you serious? Lots of people have mentioned Robin. You are far from the first.


But I think Alan Grant really plagued Batman in the 90s, I mean this guy......probably the worst Batman writer ever.

Okay, that proves you aren't serious. Nobody in their right mind would claim Alan Grant was a bad writer, let alone worst writer ever.

[Box]

I prefer the 90s to the current Batman line.

I personally restarted and left comic book collecting in the 90s, sold away my Batman comics but in my vague recollections two of the four New 52 IMO are quite derivative of the stuff DC was putting out back then.

Joker losing his face amonst other things? The gritty dark realism with violent deaths and antagonists with serial killer propensities. Instead of retreading that era, I would love more innovative and intellectually stimulating story arcs I dont mind Tec and TDK becoming cleaner because both those titles I feel have put me into a timewarp circa '92-'93.

Correct me if I am wrong? Or am I going senile in my young age?

[Captain Rabbit]

Definitely don't think it's the worst Bat-years ever. In my opinion, The 90's are pretty awesome in general.

[earl]

I think many modern readers just don't realize how unpopular Batman comics were in the 80s. It wasn't until the combination of the original Keaton movies, the Miller and Moore Batman stories that the regular comics really started to sell. Continuing into the 90s, Batman pretty much became the cash cow for DC comics. It wasn't always that way.

All told, there are more way more good Batman comics in the 90s than the 00s. I think the real dogs of Batman comics are some of the things that came after Rucka and Brubakers run yet including their really off "Bruce Wayne: Murderer" storyline. Add in junk like War Games, that awful awful Hush sequel in Batman Gotham Knights and the total slips in logic in some of the other big storylines (Jeph Loeb in Hush, Judd Winick's Batman, James Robinson's oddball storyline with Two-Face).

I think Paul Dini and Grant Morrison did some good things and some things that were less good. The other Batman titles outside them are pretty bland and I lost interest a year or so back. I haven't read any of the restart stuff yet. I'm about 6-8 months behind on the regular books, except on the Morrison Batman Inc title. I have read Snyder's first Detective storyline and the Gates of Gotham, which were solid. To me, I'm kind of burned out on the lets take 5 years to tell a story and use huge ret-cons to make it work deal. Morrison's run had a lot of good ideas and at points was really interesting, but in a way it is a Batman storyline more about Batman than actually including him. Snyder is obviously digging into setting up another long epic storyline using the history of Gotham. It might not be bad, but it doesn't read well as a month to month comic for me.

The later runs on the other comics by Tony Daniels and rotating cast on the other comics are just bland. Daniels I think tries hard, but that whole storyline with the Sensei was a mess. Way too many characters being used most of them looked the same and half of the pages seemed to be setup in these poster poses. Catgirl? Why? Bleh.

By that count, give me Alan Grant or Doug Moench Batman comics any day.

[HalWho]

I liked No man's land and Knightfall, minus the third part w the lady healing him.