Comicvine article: Can Spider-Man and Mary Jane remain "just friends?"

[Kevinroc]

http://www.comicvine.com/news/off-my-mind-can-spider-man-and-mary-jane-stay-just-friends/144154/

A little article from comicvine meant to bring forth some discussion on this particular subject.

[CyberHubbs]

Article is right.

They should just write MJ out of the title.

[One More Day]

http://www.comicvine.com/news/off-my-mind-can-spider-man-and-mary-jane-stay-just-friends/144154/

A little article from comicvine meant to bring forth some discussion on this particular subject.

I don't really see how they can. They aren't together anymore. They can't be anything more than friends. She probably will turn into a villain and betray him. He probably should eliminate her before she gets too talkative.:redface:

[One More Day]

Article is right.

They should just write MJ out of the title.

I like you CyberHubbs :biggrin:

[Kevinroc]

Article is right.

They should just write MJ out of the title.

That's not gonna happen. At least on any kind of permanent basis. :wink:

[Regulus B.]

Article is right.

They should just write MJ out of the title.

Maybe she can move to Houston. :biggrin:

[One More Day]

Maybe she can move to Houston. :biggrin:

That's where the Scarlet Spider is. He looks like Peter too. I wonder if she ever did Ben, thinking it was Peter :evilsmile:

[SpideyCzar]

Peter & MJ will be back together eventually. Dan Slott can't end Spider-Island like that just to leave it alone. Or could he...

[Venomous Mask]

Temporarily, yes. Longterm, no. And the marriage was great, it's just wasn't used to its full potential.

[One More Day]

Temporarily, yes. Longterm, no. And the marriage was great, it's just wasn't used to its full potential.

That marriage wasn't great. But if they ever decided to marry Peter again to someone else (like Carlie or Gwen) it could work!!!

[MrRoussis]

Anyone who has read issues #50 and onward of JMS' run would agree that the marriage was a great bit of Peter Parker's life and hardly affected Spider Man at all. There's no way they can remain just friends. It just wasn't meant to be that way.

[Venomous Mask]

That marriage wasn't great. But if they ever decided to marry Peter again to someone else (like Carlie or Gwen) it could work!!!

Gwen shouldn't be brought back, and his relationship with Carlie struck me as so hollow. When Peter said that he was "madly in love" in ASM #677, I almost laughed.

[tigerkaya]

That marriage wasn't great. But if they ever decided to marry Peter again to someone else (like Carlie or Gwen) it could work!!!

You seem very against Parker having a fun exciting gal with him.

[One More Day]

You seem very against Parker having a fun exciting gal with him.

No I'm not.:confused:

[MrRoussis]

No I'm not.:confused:

Its in the name...

[KurtW95]

I don't really see how they can. They aren't together anymore. They can't be anything more than friends. She probably will turn into a villain and betray him. He probably should eliminate her before she gets too talkative.:redface:

Yes!!!!! And they should bring back Gwen. It's been way too long.

[CyberHubbs]

That's not gonna happen. At least on any kind of permanent basis. :wink:

Then the world is broken.

[tigerkaya]

If Gwen does come back, Osborn should drop a safe and maybe a piano to keep her dead. Than put a sign to Spider-man "You Mad?"

[Kevinroc]

Then the world is broken.

I can think of better examples of the world being broken than a popular supporting character not leaving a comic book franchise forever. :tongue:

[One More Day]

Its in the name...

:confused:


If Gwen does come back, Osborn should drop a safe and maybe a piano to keep her dead. Than put a sign to Spider-man "You Mad?"

Osborn should marry Gwen :redface:

[One More Day]

I can think of better examples of the world being broken than a popular supporting character not leaving a comic book franchise forever. :tongue:

By any chance, are you a Hulk fan?

[KurtW95]

Osborn should marry Gwen :redface:

If she comes back (which I hope she does) "Sins Past" should be retconned.

[CyberHubbs]

I can think of better examples of the world being broken than a popular supporting character not leaving a comic book franchise forever. :tongue:

Don't try to change the subject.

[tigerkaya]

If she comes back (which I hope she does) "Sins Past" should be retconned.

So you want her to be the Jason Todd of the Spider-Man mythos.

[KurtW95]

So you want her to be the Jason Todd of the Spider-Man mythos.

No, I want her to have the same personality (not as Jason Todd).

[Chuckles]

I think "just friends" can work just fine. I was never opposed to the marriage, but I prefer just friends to writing MJ out of the story. The "awkward relationship" angle could be great, especially if it exploits the reader's familiarity with pre-OMD continuity.

[Regulus B.]

So you want her to be the Jason Todd of the Spider-Man mythos.

Sounds like a plan to me. :cool:

[Zak213]

I'm against them getting back together as that makes the retcon pointless.
Just give her superpowers or something.
It would have been cool if she was jackpot,.

[Xenon]

The article does a good job of exploring the problems with the two while doing it's damnedest to ignore all the OMD/OMIT continuity screwing.

It also comes to basically the right conclusion, that as long as she's in the book, she's never going to be just his friend. They either need to reunite them or get her out of the book, but I have a feeling that the second won't work very well if past experience is any indication.

[charlesthehammer]

They will never be just friends. They will date, break up, get back together over and over again. I do not particularly care for that but it is what it is I guess.

[tigerkaya]

Sounds like a plan to me. :cool:

So you want her to be the punching bag of the Spider-Man mythos and Marvel U. Because for Jason, since his return he was better off dead.

[EuphemismForSex]

Sins Past and Sins Remembered were already retconned. They. Didn't. Happen. Fact.

They should be married or get together again. Just because I'm tired of "will they, won't they" moments.

[KurtW95]

Sins Past and Sins Remembered were already retconned. They. Didn't. Happen.

But what about those kids?

[Darthfury78]

Anyone who has read issues #50 and onward of JMS' run would agree that the marriage was a great bit of Peter Parker's life and hardly affected Spider Man at all. There's no way they can remain just friends. It just wasn't meant to be that way.

Eventually, Peter x MJ will get back together. However, when Marvel broke them up, all of Peter's alternative relationships(with the exception to Carol Danvers) sucked. This should have been the moment where Peter could develop his mutual friendship with Liz Allan, Jessica Drew, Carol Danvers, and Jennifer Walters. But those options don't interest them.

With JMS, at least we saw a progress of Peter's character rather than the Editorial mandate that regressed him back to how he was in the 1980's.


They will never be just friends. They will date, break up, get back together over and over again. I do not particularly care for that but it is what it is I guess.

Then, it might be a good idea to diversify Peter's relationship with other interesting women. But they won't do that. So they provide us with a lot of boring women in Peter's life.

[EuphemismForSex]

But what about those kids?

No!

No.

[charlesthehammer]

Then, it might be a good idea to diversify Peter's relationship with other interesting women. But they won't do that. So they provide us with a lot of boring women in Peter's life.

They could do that, hell they could do that without involving dating. Though you are right, they probably won't.

[Spidey_Legend]

But what about those kids?

He is trolling you. Euphemism for sex is in denial. xD







PD: and me too.

[okpanic]

I think the current position Mary Jane has within the Spider-Man cast has been the most interesting thing they've done with her in aaages. It's for the most part new territory for her as a character (to my knowledge I don't think she's ever been Pete's ex-fiancee looking-in before), so why jettison that? Just because a relationship is "complicated" is probably the worst reason to phase a character out. There's also so much drama to easily mine out of the situation thanks to their past and current situation, I can't see that being passed on.

Also, another reason why they should keep her around is being it'd show a lot of mature growth on Peter's side. I mean, if you try and cast off every ex you've ever had just because the act of staying friends with them afterwards (after a cooling period) was too hard, then I'd say you've got a bit of growing up to do.
It's a different story if they were a complete bitch, but otherwise...




And the marriage was great, it's just wasn't used to its full potential.

S'funny, I thought they took the marriage as far as they could go, save having children and getting old together.

[charlesthehammer]

I think the current position Mary Jane has within the Spider-Man cast has been the most interesting thing they've done with her in aaages. It's for the most part new territory for her as a character (to my knowledge I don't think she's ever been Pete's ex-fiancee looking-in before), so why jettison that? Just because a relationship is "complicated" is probably the worst reason to phase a character out. There's also so much drama to easily mine out of the situation thanks to their past and current situation, I can't see that being passed on.

Also, another reason why they should keep her around is being it'd show a lot of mature growth on Peter's side. I mean, if you try and cast off every ex you've ever had just because the act of staying friends with them afterwards (after a cooling period) was too hard, then I'd say you've got a bit of growing up to do.
It's a different story if they were a complete bitch, but otherwise...
What exactly can they mine? The will they won't they angle?





S'funny, I thought they took the marriage as far as they could go, save having children and getting old together.
I feel the same way about dating, though I may be a little biased.

[okpanic]

It's possible!


What exactly can they mine? The will they won't they angle?

The awkwardness inherent in the situation, the quirkyness of actually trying to be friends again with somebody you've been so intimate with in the past and the feelings and complications that can drag up (and boy are there a few to list), the re-building of their relationship together as friends foremost, and yeah you could ride the undercurrent of attraction there for a good long way.

[charlesthehammer]

It's possible!
I do not think I am being to biased here, but I did think it is worth acknowledging the possibility.



The awkwardness inherent in the situation, the quirkyness of actually trying to be friends again with somebody you've been so intimate with in the past and the feelings and complications that can drag up (and boy are there a few to list), the re-building of their relationship together as friends foremost, and yeah you could ride the undercurrent of attraction there for a good long way.
Aren't they basically doing that with Carlie though? Granted the two relationships are different, but they seemed to have moved past the whole awkward thing at least for now. Though the undercurrent of attraction does seem to be the current angle.

[okpanic]

I guess they are, though I forsee Carlie playing a role more in line with being a Spider-Man confidant like Jean DeWolff, but with an added layer. Plus she doesn't have a tenth of as much history behind her relationship with Peter as Mary Jane does, so there's definitely more to draw on where MJ is concerned.

[SpideyCzar]

That marriage wasn't great. But if they ever decided to marry Peter again to someone else (like Carlie or Gwen) it could work!!!

I didn't know Peter was into necrophilia...

Marriage was great when well done, but handled bad by poor writers.

[tigerkaya]

I guess they are, though I forsee Carlie playing a role more in line with being a Spider-Man confidant like Jean DeWolff, but with an added layer. Plus she doesn't have a tenth of as much history behind her relationship with Peter as Mary Jane does, so there's definitely more to draw on where MJ is concerned.

What do you mean? Her past is retconned in as to knowing Gwen Stacy, George Stacy and Jean DeWolf her whole life.

[Xenon]

They DID already do the whole Mary Jane as ex-girlfriend but still confidant friend whom still has feelings for him. The LAST time she came back. =\

For the exact same reason even (I can't deal with the danger of him being Spider-Man). She did it for like four years too. =\

[SpideyCzar]

Sins Past and Sins Remembered were already retconned. They. Didn't. Happen. Fact.

They should be married or get together again. Just because I'm tired of "will they, won't they" moments.

When was this retconned and who do I need to kiss for this happening?

[CyberHubbs]

What do you mean? Her past is retconned in as to knowing Gwen Stacy, George Stacy and Jean DeWolf her whole life.

When did they say Carlie knew Jean?


And Carlie and Gwen knew each other as kids. I don't think that's a retcon.

[okpanic]

What do you mean? Her past is retconned in as to knowing Gwen Stacy, George Stacy and Jean DeWolf her whole life.

Yeah I'm talking about a depth of history, not an illusion of it. ;p


They DID already do the whole Mary Jane as ex-girlfriend but still confidant friend whom still has feelings for him. The LAST time she came back. =\

Completely different circumstances and different status quo, to say the least.
The story behind it all has made it feel pretty fresh to me.

I don't think she should be in every issue but I wouldn't mind MJ appearing every couple or so.

[Xenon]

When was this retconned and who do I need to kiss for this happening?

It wasn't. He's living in denial. A common reaction to Sins Past.


Completely different circumstances and different status quo, to say the least.
The story behind it all has made it feel pretty fresh to me.

I don't think she should be in every issue but I wouldn't mind MJ appearing every couple or so.

You're going to have to explain this one to me.

When Mary Jane came back the first time, she knew he was Spider-Man, she still expressed love for him (in private), and she covered for him on occasion. Peter was dating the Black Cat when she first came back, and then her and Peter broke up.

It seems to be the exact same circumstances. What about the relationship is different? Besides the whole timescrew.

[Spidey_Legend]

When did they say Carlie knew Jean?


Carlie never knew Jean, It was Yuri Watanabe.



And Carlie and Gwen knew each other as kids. I don't think that's a retcon.

It was not a retcon. In the Many Loves of Spider-Man One Shot wrote their knowlegement about each other.

[Darthfury78]

They could do that, hell they could do that without involving dating. Though you are right, they probably won't.

It's not that the Editors aren't interested in the idea. It's just that the writers who are working on Spider-Man that are not interested in that. So the idea is to find a writer who is interested. The problem is that they are not writing Spider-Man or any of his related books at the moment.

I think the Marvel is kidding themselves if they think that Mary Jane x Peter Parker will stay as just friends, after getting rid of the marriage through making a pact with a Demon in order to save the life of a person who should have passed on a very long time ago to be with her husband in the after life.

It's such a shame that a lot of goodwill has been wasted on Peter Parker(as far as relationships goes with the women are concerned) after OMD/BND.

[Ursalink]

Look, guys. For me it's obvious that Peter and MJ will be together again someday. They have shared too much in their lives and they have too many similarities in their lives. Like the fact of both using "masks", Peter because of Spiderman and MJ being a "party girl" to hide the problems of her family. I have always loved the stories from MC2, which I hope they will edit someday again, with May "Mayday" Parker (Peter and MJ's daughter, and the one true Spider-Girl). They are not going to eliminate someone as important in Spiderman's history like Mary Jane just like that. I could wish that if some character is eliminated from Spiderman's world, that would be J Jonah Jameson, because I'm really REALLY SICK of his unjustified campaign against Spiderman. But let's face it, that is a pain in the butt that Spidey will never get rid of it; nearly just like Spiderman.

Ans after what happened in Spider-Island, I'm still more sure that they will return together someday. MJ said that she understood Peter's reasons to be Spiderman but she couldn't handle it; but after having some of his spider powers for a short time and help him in a battle, she has finally really understand Peter's way of Spiderman. She even enjoyed to have those powers for fun, as a real "Ms Spiderman". So I'm sure they will return together someday.

Besides, I still suspect we haven't seen the last of "Spider-MJ", because the picture of the preview of "ASM 654.1" can fit perfectly AFTER Spider-Island.

[stillanerd]

I don't see why not. Not only were Peter and MJ in virtually the same situation before they got married, but MJ isn't the only ex-girlfriend he became best friends with. Have we all forgotten about Betty Brant? After all, look their relationship history:

*was Peter's first girlfriend.
*starting seeing Ned Leeds not because she like him but because she was trying to make Peter jealous enough to stop seeing Liz Allen and come back to her. And she Only married Ned because Peter (surprise, surprise) rejected her when she told him Ned proposed to her and Peter was sick of her games.
*Ended up leaving Ned during their honeymoon and went back to Peter to pursue what could easily be described as an extra-marital affair. In which Peter--after getting decked by her husband and realizing he made a huge mistake in encouraging Betty--tried to end things by pretending he didn't care about her other than having a good time, in which she promptly slapped him and wouldn't speak with him for months Marvel time.
*End up having an affair with Peter's former enemy and now good friend, Flash Thompson.

And yet, despite what could arguably even more awkward romantic baggage between them, what are Peter and Betty's current status today? Why, they're such good friends that they have a weekly movie night together and consider each other brother and sister. So Peter and MJ still remaining friends despite being exes isn't that big of a stretch by comparison.


They DID already do the whole Mary Jane as ex-girlfriend but still confidant friend whom still has feelings for him. The LAST time she came back. =\

For the exact same reason even (I can't deal with the danger of him being Spider-Man). She did it for like four years too. =\

Exactly right. The only difference is the 800 pound gorilla of OMD/OMIT in the background.

[Venomous Mask]

I don't see why not. Not only were Peter and MJ in virtually the same situation before they got married, but MJ isn't the only ex-girlfriend he became best friends with. Have we all forgotten about Betty Brant? After all, look their relationship history:

*was Peter's first girlfriend.
*starting seeing Ned Leeds not because she like him but because she was trying to make Peter jealous enough to stop seeing Liz Allen and come back to her. And she Only married Ned because Peter (surprise, surprise) rejected her when she told him Ned proposed to her and Peter was sick of her games.
*Ended up leaving Ned during their honeymoon and went back to Peter to pursue what could easily be described as an extra-marital affair. In which Peter--after getting decked by her husband and realizing he made a huge mistake in encouraging Betty--tried to end things by pretending he didn't care about her other than having a good time, in which she promptly slapped him and wouldn't speak with him for months Marvel time.
*End up having an affair with Peter's former enemy and now good friend, Flash Thompson.

And yet, despite what could arguably even more awkward romantic baggage between them, what are Peter and Betty's current status today? Why, they're such good friends that they have a weekly movie night together and consider each other brother and sister. So Peter and MJ still remaining friends despite being exes isn't that big of a stretch by comparison.

I'm not sure if the two can be seen as the same. When they Peter and Betty were dating, yes, they were very much in love. But their relationship does not nearly have the same history, emotion, and depth as the one with MJ. It's one thing to move on from an innocent early sixties high school crush that never really got intimate, it's another to move on from a marriage that lasted about twenty years (real-time) and had considerable emotional drama for years beforehand.

[Kevinroc]

I don't see why not. Not only were Peter and MJ in virtually the same situation before they got married, but MJ isn't the only ex-girlfriend he became best friends with. Have we all forgotten about Betty Brant? After all, look their relationship history:

*was Peter's first girlfriend.
*starting seeing Ned Leeds not because she like him but because she was trying to make Peter jealous enough to stop seeing Liz Allen and come back to her. And she Only married Ned because Peter (surprise, surprise) rejected her when she told him Ned proposed to her and Peter was sick of her games.
*Ended up leaving Ned during their honeymoon and went back to Peter to pursue what could easily be described as an extra-marital affair. In which Peter--after getting decked by her husband and realizing he made a huge mistake in encouraging Betty--tried to end things by pretending he didn't care about her other than having a good time, in which she promptly slapped him and wouldn't speak with him for months Marvel time.
*End up having an affair with Peter's former enemy and now good friend, Flash Thompson.

And yet, despite what could arguably even more awkward romantic baggage between them, what are Peter and Betty's current status today? Why, they're such good friends that they have a weekly movie night together and consider each other brother and sister. So Peter and MJ still remaining friends despite being exes isn't that big of a stretch by comparison.

You don't really believe that for a second, do you?

[Xenon]

I don't see why not. Not only were Peter and MJ in virtually the same situation before they got married, but MJ isn't the only ex-girlfriend he became best friends with. Have we all forgotten about Betty Brant? After all, look their relationship history:

*was Peter's first girlfriend.
*starting seeing Ned Leeds not because she like him but because she was trying to make Peter jealous enough to stop seeing Liz Allen and come back to her. And she Only married Ned because Peter (surprise, surprise) rejected her when she told him Ned proposed to her and Peter was sick of her games.
*Ended up leaving Ned during their honeymoon and went back to Peter to pursue what could easily be described as an extra-marital affair. In which Peter--after getting decked by her husband and realizing he made a huge mistake in encouraging Betty--tried to end things by pretending he didn't care about her other than having a good time, in which she promptly slapped him and wouldn't speak with him for months Marvel time.
*End up having an affair with Peter's former enemy and now good friend, Flash Thompson.

And yet, despite what could arguably even more awkward romantic baggage between them, what are Peter and Betty's current status today? Why, they're such good friends that they have a weekly movie night together and consider each other brother and sister. So Peter and MJ still remaining friends despite being exes isn't that big of a stretch by comparison.

Mary Jane and Betty Brant have always played two very separate roles, and the way their relationships ended makes all of this vastly different.

Betty is that childhood love. The girl you date when you're fourteen who you think you love but that's only because you've never felt the real thing. And when both Betty and Peter realized that, they went their separate ways. They can remain friends easily because they still have feelings for each other but they know those feelings don't run that deep. There's a limit to them, they explored that limit, and then it was over. This has always been Betty's position. She was never meant to be the one he ends up with. That wasn't her role.

Mary Jane is the adult love, she's not perhaps the woman you dreamed about, but she's the one you end up with because you love her and you accept her, baggage and all (which we all have past a certain point). Her role doesn't call for her to be left behind. Further, the way they broke up wasn't some mutual understanding that the relationship had run its course. It was.....(let's just assume OMIT wasn't contradictory to everything else that happened between Mary Jane and Peter Parker since her return in the 200s)....the situational. It was stress. Outside considerations. There was never a time where they fell out of love. That's never even been a suggestion. Simply put, they don't WANT to be "just friends", it's just the situation they've been forced into.

And that's unsatisfying, as a story.

[Meehaul]

Of course they can be "just friends." They can be whatever the writers want them to be. MJ could even become an arch-villain. It's just fiction. A segment of the fans want to see them together. Another segment of the fans wants to see them apart. New readers simply won't care one way or the other as they have no particular investment in MJ. So, the real question is whether some fans will have their wish-expectations fulfilled or not.

I think Marvel missed an opportunity to deal with MJ's death or a real-life divorce, but that ship has passed. She's not been a significant enough presence in Pete's life the past four years--plus we've already had the silly OMD/OMIT stories. I think she works best as a character if they leave her around as the representation of what Pete's life might have been. She was more interesting that way than the forced afterschool special she became.

[Chuckles]

There are so many great stories that center on love forbidden by situation or circumstance, so I don't see why Pete and MJ have to be the exception.

[Meehaul]

There are so many great stories that center on love forbidden by situation or circumstance, so I don't see why Pete and MJ have to be the exception.

And they don't. I've always thought Pete loved MJ more as a type than as a person. What drew them together was Gwen's death, so their separation is not a surprise at all. They've returned to their status quo ex ante. I just hope we see more of pete's personal life generally. Part of the problem with Carlie is that we had so few scenes with them together as a couple. Harry has been a non-factor, same with Flash. All we seem to see is the occasional interaction with the mayor's office or when Pete is back at work. I'd love to see him sit down and actually interact with the non-hero cast. Just like I'd love to see him catch MJ on TV and stare at her a bit wistfully.

[Kevinroc]

It is a bit odd that we're seeing the same mistakes that drove the supporting cast away again. Flash and Betty appear but have mostly been moved to Venom. Harry is gone. Aunt May is gone with her new husband. Jonah is the mayor but he isn't Peter's boss anymore. Peter doesn't work with Robbie and the rest.

The main supporting cast these days see, to be MJ, Carlie and the Horizon crew. And of these characters, only one of them are from the Stan Lee days.

[CyberHubbs]

Robbie and Jonah still see Peter, though. They aren't that far out the book.

Either way, it's a good way to concentrate on new characters.

[Kevinroc]

Peter doesn't work for Jonah and/or Robbie right now so their roles feel less significant.

There's really nothing wrong with focusing on the new characters but typically they do not stick around.

[stillanerd]

I'm not sure if the two can be seen as the same. When they Peter and Betty were dating, yes, they were very much in love. But their relationship does not nearly have the same history, emotion, and depth as the one with MJ. It's one thing to move on from an innocent early sixties high school crush that never really got intimate, it's another to move on from a marriage that lasted about twenty years (real-time) and had considerable emotional drama for years beforehand.


Mary Jane and Betty Brant have always played two very separate roles, and the way their relationships ended makes all of this vastly different.

Betty is that childhood love. The girl you date when you're fourteen who you think you love but that's only because you've never felt the real thing. And when both Betty and Peter realized that, they went their separate ways. They can remain friends easily because they still have feelings for each other but they know those feelings don't run that deep. There's a limit to them, they explored that limit, and then it was over. This has always been Betty's position. She was never meant to be the one he ends up with. That wasn't her role.

Mary Jane is the adult love, she's not perhaps the woman you dreamed about, but she's the one you end up with because you love her and you accept her, baggage and all (which we all have past a certain point). Her role doesn't call for her to be left behind. Further, the way they broke up wasn't some mutual understanding that the relationship had run its course. It was.....(let's just assume OMIT wasn't contradictory to everything else that happened between Mary Jane and Peter Parker since her return in the 200s)....the situational. It was stress. Outside considerations. There was never a time where they fell out of love. That's never even been a suggestion. Simply put, they don't WANT to be "just friends", it's just the situation they've been forced into.

And that's unsatisfying, as a story.

Got to say, both of you make some very good, valid points and distinctions comparing and contrasting both relationships.


You don't really believe that for a second, do you?

If you mean do I think Peter and MJ could eventually get back together and more than "just friends?" Of course. I was just highlighting the fact it's not as if MJ is exclusive to being an "ex-girlfriend" of Peter's who he became "just friends" with. Although as was pointed out, the circumstances are very much different compared to other "exes turned friends" Peter has had.


It is a bit odd that we're seeing the same mistakes that drove the supporting cast away again. Flash and Betty appear but have mostly been moved to Venom. Harry is gone. Aunt May is gone with her new husband. Jonah is the mayor but he isn't Peter's boss anymore. Peter doesn't work with Robbie and the rest.

The main supporting cast these days see, to be MJ, Carlie and the Horizon crew. And of these characters, only one of them are from the Stan Lee days.

That's a very good point. Particularly in Harry's case since Marvel went through all the trouble into bringing him back in the first place.

[Kevinroc]

Got to say, both of you make some very good, valid points and distinctions comparing and contrasting both relationships.

It needs to be said, because it hasn't been discussed much in this thread. Peter's relationship with Mary Jane is the most meaningful relationship he has ever had with a woman. It was the longest and most honest. (This is a major reason why Peter's recent moaning over Carlie in the Daredevil crossover rubbed people the wrong way even if they didn't phrase it correctly.)


If you mean do I think Peter and MJ could eventually get back together and more than "just friends?" Of course. I was just highlighting the fact it's not as if MJ is exclusive to being an "ex-girlfriend" of Peter's who he became "just friends" with. Although as was pointed out, the circumstances are very much different compared to other "exes turned friends" Peter has had.

A big difference is the audience reaction as well. For better or worse, the audience and the creators were taken by Mary Jane. To the point that they tossed the intended love interest off a bridge.


That's a very good point. Particularly in Harry's case since Marvel went through all the trouble into bringing him back in the first place.

I know people hate it when I bring this up but the supporting characters not grandfathered into the series (the Lee/Ditko/Romita characters) tend to have a short shelf life after their creators leave with rare exceptions (Glory Grant and Black Cat).

[CyberHubbs]

I don't see a reason why Slott shouldn't focus on a new supporting cast. Even if they don't remain beyond his run, at least he tried to use his own characters besides the usual suspects.

"We want new ideas!", by the kind of thinking Kevinroc posted, ends up being bullshit.

[CyberHubbs]

Peter doesn't work for Jonah and/or Robbie right now so their roles feel less significant.

There's really nothing wrong with focusing on the new characters but typically they do not stick around.

Jonah is mayor of New York and has had quite a bit of interaction, especially during Slott's Big Time. All that isn't really there is the boss/employee relationship.

But the characters are still around and doing stuff.

[charlesthehammer]

I don't see a reason why Slott shouldn't focus on a new supporting cast. Even if they don't remain beyond his run, at least he tried to use his own characters besides the usual suspects.

"We want new ideas!", by the kind of thinking Kevinroc posted, ends up being bullshit.

I would not say fans actually want new ideas universally. Especially already existing fans. So to a degree I think you are right that new ideas being what everyone one wants is bullshit. Of course there is a difference between new characters and new ideas. People get attached to characters not ideas.

[Darthfury78]

It is a bit odd that we're seeing the same mistakes that drove the supporting cast away again. Flash and Betty appear but have mostly been moved to Venom. Harry is gone. Aunt May is gone with her new husband. Jonah is the mayor but he isn't Peter's boss anymore. Peter doesn't work with Robbie and the rest.

The main supporting cast these days see, to be MJ, Carlie and the Horizon crew. And of these characters, only one of them are from the Stan Lee days.

It's too bad they won't bring Liz Allan into the story. To me, Marvel allowed Harry Osborn and Liz Allan to marry and have a child so quickly. Yet, when it comes to Peter and Mary Jane getting married and having a child: NO WAY!!!

And Harry and Liz never had a history together prior to getting married. When OMD/BND came along, I wished that it did more than removed Peter and MJ's marriage. They should have removed Liz's marriage to Harry Osborn as well as their son Normie. To me, Liz Allan x Peter Parker might be an interesting relationship since she is the least developed love interest. Having her in Peter's life would be ideal. But they won't do that since she's a single mother. Why not make Normie gone from existence like Peter's marriage to Mary Jane? Let's get something different from that angle.

[CMBMOOL]

It's too bad they won't bring Liz Allan into the story. To me, Marvel allowed Harry Osborn and Liz Allan to marry and have a child so quickly. Yet, when it comes to Peter and Mary Jane getting married and having a child: NO WAY!!!

And Harry and Liz never had a history together prior to getting married. When OMD/BND came along, I wished that it did more than removed Peter and MJ's marriage. They should have removed Liz's marriage to Harry Osborn as well as their son Normie. To me, Liz Allan x Peter Parker might be an interesting relationship since she is the least developed love interest. Having her in Peter's life would be ideal. But they won't do that since she's a single mother. Why not make Normie gone from existence like Peter's marriage to Mary Jane? Let's get something different from that angle.

Okay, even I have to admit that sounds like a good idea. :eek:

[Xenon]

I think the point Kevin is trying to make is that one of the oft-cited problems of the immediately previous JMS era of the book was the fact that the supporting cast was very limited. Oddly enough, we seem to be moving in that direction again, but that really depends on how they deal with the Horizon folks. There's nothing to say that you couldn't have a robust supporting cast without most of the older characters.

[Kevinroc]

I don't see a reason why Slott shouldn't focus on a new supporting cast. Even if they don't remain beyond his run, at least he tried to use his own characters besides the usual suspects.

"We want new ideas!", by the kind of thinking Kevinroc posted, ends up being bullcrap.

I'm not saying this is limited only to Slott's Spider-Man. This is an industry wide problem. It's difficult for new characters to permeate. Particularly supporting characters in long running franchises.

Writers ALWAYS want to use their own characters instead of characters created beyond the usual suspects" (as you put it). That's why Jill Stacy, Deb Whitman, Jessica Carradine, Lamont, Leo Zelinsky, Jimmy-6, and numerous others have pretty much vanished from the face of the Marvel Universe.

And other characters such as Lance Bannon, Jean DeWolff, Nathan Lubensky and others end up being killed off.

[Memphis Raines]

They should just write MJ out of the title.

I love how they brought Harry back from the dead to basically just write him out again, but have not written MJ out yet now that she serves no purpose.

[CyberHubbs]

I would not say fans actually want new ideas universally. Especially already existing fans. So to a degree I think you are right that new ideas being what everyone one wants is bullshit. Of course there is a difference between new characters and new ideas. People get attached to characters not ideas.

People definitely get attached to ideas.

[CyberHubbs]

I'm not saying this is limited only to Slott's Spider-Man. This is an industry wide problem. It's difficult for new characters to permeate. Particularly supporting characters in long running franchises.

Writers ALWAYS want to use their own characters instead of characters created beyond the usual suspects" (as you put it). That's why Jill Stacy, Deb Whitman, Jessica Carradine, Lamont, Leo Zelinsky, Jimmy-6, and numerous others have pretty much vanished from the face of the Marvel Universe.

And other characters such as Lance Bannon, Jean DeWolff, Nathan Lubensky and others end up being killed off.

I don't think it matters if they survive or not. They work in the context of Slott's current run. That's really all they need to accomplish.

But the others are, again, still around and doing stuff. I'm not sure how Horizon Lab's huge cast, MJ, Phil Urich, Carlie, and the folks that pop up every few arcs is somehow limited. Makes it sound like readers have the shortest attention span ever.

[Kevinroc]

I don't think it matters if they survive or not. They work in the context of Slott's current run. That's really all they need to accomplish.

But the others are, again, still around and doing stuff. I'm not sure how Horizon Lab's huge cast, MJ, Phil Urich, Carlie, and the folks that pop up every few arcs is somehow limited. Makes it sound like readers have the shortest attention span ever.

That's one way to look at it. (Except for MJ. As a Lee/Ditko/Romita character with as much history as she has, she can never be gone from the franchise forever.)

[Regulus B.]

Of course they can be "just friends." They can be whatever the writers want them to be. MJ could even become an arch-villain. It's just fiction. A segment of the fans want to see them together. Another segment of the fans wants to see them apart. New readers simply won't care one way or the other as they have no particular investment in MJ. So, the real question is whether some fans will have their wish-expectations fulfilled or not.

I think Marvel missed an opportunity to deal with MJ's death or a real-life divorce, but that ship has passed. She's not been a significant enough presence in Pete's life the past four years--plus we've already had the silly OMD/OMIT stories. I think she works best as a character if they leave her around as the representation of what Pete's life might have been. She was more interesting that way than the forced afterschool special she became.

I think this is spot on in a number of ways, from first to last. Fiction is what the writers dictate. There's nothing set or fated about it. There are fan wants in any number of directions but nothing is necessary or certain.

That said, if I never have to read about MJ's "I'm crying on the inside" ;_; QQ-fest again, it will be too soon.

[One More Day]

I think this is spot on in a number of ways, from first to last. Fiction is what the writers dictate. There's nothing set or fated about it. There are fan wants in any number of directions but nothing is necessary or certain.

That said, if I never have to read about MJ's "I'm crying on the inside" ;_; QQ-fest again, it will be too soon.

When did that happen besides ASM 259 and Parallel Lives? :confused:

[Regulus B.]

When did that happen besides ASM 259 and Parallel Lives? :confused:

It's her character's revamped foundation. That her confidence and outgoing personality is all a front to shield her poor, shattered feelings.

[One More Day]

It's her character's revamped foundation. That her confidence and outgoing personality is all a front to shield her poor, shattered feelings.

Fair enough, I agree with you on that. I don't agree with her foundation though. She's a rich and famous supermodel. No need to be crying or QQ'ing, she has no reason to be sad inside.

[charlesthehammer]

I think this is spot on in a number of ways, from first to last. Fiction is what the writers dictate. There's nothing set or fated about it. There are fan wants in any number of directions but nothing is necessary or certain.

That said, if I never have to read about MJ's "I'm crying on the inside" ;_; QQ-fest again, it will be too soon. I think that is being a little disingenuous, anything could happen, but what I assumed this was about what was most likely going to happen.


It's her character's revamped foundation. That her confidence and outgoing personality is all a front to shield her poor, shattered feelings.
Which oddly did not play all that big a part of the character, apart from a few storylines. I always wished it would have been explored more.

[Regulus B.]

Fair enough, I agree with you on that. I don't agree with her foundation though. She's a rich and famous supermodel. No need to be crying or QQ'ing, she has no reason to be sad inside.

But her childhood was just TERRIBLE! Gotta dance to kill that pain. :tongue:


I think that is being a little disingenuous, anything could happen, but what I assumed this was about what was most likely going to happen.

Never trust a writer re: what's likely. :tongue:


Which oddly did not play all that big a part of the character, apart from a few storylines. I always wished it would have been explored more.

If you don't consider the marriage a big part, then sure.

[Kevin Nichols]

I'm not saying this is limited only to Slott's Spider-Man. This is an industry wide problem. It's difficult for new characters to permeate. Particularly supporting characters in long running franchises.

Writers ALWAYS want to use their own characters instead of characters created beyond the usual suspects" (as you put it). That's why Jill Stacy, Deb Whitman, Jessica Carradine, Lamont, Leo Zelinsky, Jimmy-6, and numerous others have pretty much vanished from the face of the Marvel Universe.

And other characters such as Lance Bannon, Jean DeWolff, Nathan Lubensky and others end up being killed off.

I don't know that it's a problem. It just is what it is. Every old character was once new. Many (even most) new characters don't have the longevity that Spider-Man does, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be given a chance.

Take this as an example. How many villains were created during the Lee/Ditko run? I'm counting twenty one (Chameleon, Vulture, Tinkerer, Doc Ock, Sandman, Lizard, Living Brain, Electro, Enforcers, Big Man, Mysterio, Green Goblin, Kraven, Scorpion, Smythe/Spider-Slayers, Crime Master, Molten Man, The Cat, Looter, Robot Master, and the guy named Joe). Out of those, how many can now be considered big name villains? Ten? So, Lee and Ditko were only shooting about 50% (which is really pretty good). How many villains were created after the Lee/Ditko era? Too many to count, that's for sure. But at least five have made a huge lasting impact: Kingpin, Punisher, Black Cat, Hobgoblin, and Venom. With a possible case to be made for Jackal and Carnage as well. In fact, many fans list Venom and Hobgoblin as their all-time favorite villains! Sure, you're going to have more busts (Big Wheel, Slyde, Ace, Skinhead, etc) than wins, but new characters have to be used if they are ever to become classic. That's just the way it goes.

I think that everyone acknowledges that the Lee/Ditko is pretty much the Bible for how great comics should be written, but that doesn't mean that everything that comes after is invalid. Of course characters like Carlie and the Horizon crew aren't going to have the rich history of someone like MJ. She had almost a 50 year head start on them!

Think of all the great stories we would have missed out on if new characters like Gwen Stacy, Harry Osborn, Jean DeWolffe, Joe Robertson, and even Mary Jane herself (remember, she didn't debut until issue 42) had never been given exposure. If they had just been dismissed as "new characters that won't be around long anyway" we wouldn't have anywhere near the history we enjoy today.

[Kevinroc]

I don't know that it's a problem. It just is what it is. Every old character was once new. Many (even most) new characters don't have the longevity that Spider-Man does, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be given a chance.

Take this as an example. How many villains were created during the Lee/Ditko run? I'm counting twenty one (Chameleon, Vulture, Tinkerer, Doc Ock, Sandman, Lizard, Living Brain, Electro, Enforcers, Big Man, Mysterio, Green Goblin, Kraven, Scorpion, Smythe/Spider-Slayers, Crime Master, Molten Man, The Cat, Looter, Robot Master, and the guy named Joe). Out of those, how many can now be considered big name villains? Ten? So, Lee and Ditko were only shooting about 50% (which is really pretty good). How many villains were created after the Lee/Ditko era? Too many to count, that's for sure. But at least five have made a huge lasting impact: Kingpin, Punisher, Black Cat, Hobgoblin, and Venom. With a possible case to be made for Jackal and Carnage as well. In fact, many fans list Venom and Hobgoblin as their all-time favorite villains! Sure, you're going to have more busts (Big Wheel, Slyde, Ace, Skinhead, etc) than wins, but new characters have to be used if they are ever to become classic. That's just the way it goes.

I think that everyone acknowledges that the Lee/Ditko is pretty much the Bible for how great comics should be written, but that doesn't mean that everything that comes after is invalid. Of course characters like Carlie and the Horizon crew aren't going to have the rich history of someone like MJ. She had almost a 50 year head start on them!

Think of all the great stories we would have missed out on if new characters like Gwen Stacy, Harry Osborn, Jean DeWolffe, Joe Robertson, and even Mary Jane herself (remember, she didn't debut until issue 42) had never been given exposure. If they had just been dismissed as "new characters that won't be around long anyway" we wouldn't have anywhere near the history we enjoy today.

I look at it like this. The Lee/Ditko/Romita days (which I tend to branch together because they represent a trifecta of Spider-Awesome) clearly built the world of Spider-Man that everyone following wants to recreate. And they created such wonderful characters in Peter's world and Spidey's world.

I've always looked at villains in a different role from Peter's supporting cast. They fulfill different roles within the narrative. Robbie Robertson doesn't fill the same role as Dr. Octopus, for example.

In this context, the actual supporting cast in Peter's world tends to be the same characters from the Lee/Ditko/Romita days with rare exception. The new characters tend to sort of fade off into the background or get killed off. The best way to look at it is that Lee and co. did such a great job creating such wonderful characters to fill Peter's world that of course it's hard for characters created by other writers to break through and really become a long-lasting member of the supporting cast.

Flash Thompson, Betty Brant, Harry Osborn, Aunt May, Mary Jane Watson, Gwen Stacy, J. Jonah Jameson, Robbie Robertson. These are wonderful characters with staying power in Spidey's world. And yes, a lot of them are currently either on the outs or in the peripheral. (Or dead, in Gwen's case.)

[Kevin Nichols]

I look at it like this. The Lee/Ditko/Romita days (which I tend to branch together because they represent a trifecta of Spider-Awesome) clearly built the world of Spider-Man that everyone following wants to recreate. And they created such wonderful characters in Peter's world and Spidey's world.

I've always looked at villains in a different role from Peter's supporting cast. They fulfill different roles within the narrative. Robbie Robertson doesn't fill the same role as Dr. Octopus, for example.

In this context, the actual supporting cast in Peter's world tends to be the same characters from the Lee/Ditko/Romita days with rare exception. The new characters tend to sort of fade off into the background or get killed off. The best way to look at it is that Lee and co. did such a great job creating such wonderful characters to fill Peter's world that of course it's hard for characters created by other writers to break through and really become a long-lasting member of the supporting cast.

Flash Thompson, Betty Brant, Harry Osborn, Aunt May, Mary Jane Watson, Gwen Stacy, J. Jonah Jameson, Robbie Robertson. These are wonderful characters with staying power in Spidey's world. And yes, a lot of them are currently either on the outs or in the peripheral. (Or dead, in Gwen's case.)

Oh, I totally agree with you that the characters from the Lee/Ditko/Romita era are each one in a million. They have proven staying power, and their personalities make them almost alive (well, except for Gwen of course :wink:) And yeah. It seems that, as far as supporting cast members go, I think all of the Lee/Ditko/Romita creations have stood the test of time. That is pretty incredible.

I just don't think that characters should be written off just because they are new. Jean DeWolffe wasn't around that long, but she was a very well-developed character and was the basis (albeit in death) of one of the all-time greatest Spidey stories.

Glory Grant, while not a major character, has certainly developed into a strong, independent woman. I would consider her to be a great character, especially in recent years.

Nathan Lubensky, Willie Lumpkin, JJJ Sr., all of the boarders at Aunt May's house. All newer characters (Except maybe for Willie. Not sure if he appeared in early FF or not.) and some were just a flash in the pan, but they left their impact nonetheless.

As far as the older characters being pushed to the sidelines, I have two points to make:

1.) I respectfully disagree. Some are on the sidelines, and some aren't. I personally think that Slott has done a great job balancing the new characters with the old. That's just my opinion of course, and mileage varies.

2.) They'll be back. They always are. Aunt May, MJ, Harry, and pretty much every supporting cast member has been written out of the book before. They come back. So, I wouldn't worry too much about Harry and Aunt May's absence. Slott seems to greatly respect the history of Spidey, and I'm sure we'll see those characters again soon.

[ngroove]

I don't know that it's a problem. It just is what it is. Every old character was once new. Many (even most) new characters don't have the longevity that Spider-Man does, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be given a chance.

Take this as an example. How many villains were created during the Lee/Ditko run? I'm counting twenty one (Chameleon, Vulture, Tinkerer, Doc Ock, Sandman, Lizard, Living Brain, Electro, Enforcers, Big Man, Mysterio, Green Goblin, Kraven, Scorpion, Smythe/Spider-Slayers, Crime Master, Molten Man, The Cat, Looter, Robot Master, and the guy named Joe). Out of those, how many can now be considered big name villains? Ten? So, Lee and Ditko were only shooting about 50% (which is really pretty good). How many villains were created after the Lee/Ditko era? Too many to count, that's for sure. But at least five have made a huge lasting impact: Kingpin, Punisher, Black Cat, Hobgoblin, and Venom. With a possible case to be made for Jackal and Carnage as well. In fact, many fans list Venom and Hobgoblin as their all-time favorite villains! Sure, you're going to have more busts (Big Wheel, Slyde, Ace, Skinhead, etc) than wins, but new characters have to be used if they are ever to become classic. That's just the way it goes.

This could make an interesting thread in itself.

On the Lee / Ditko years, I'm sure the Enforcers were big names from 1964 to 1966 (counting Ox's two appearances in Daredevil), as well as Molten Man from 1965 to 1966 (was a later Ditko creation, whom was used twice, issue 28 to 35, seven issues apart, and 35 was three issues from Ditko's departure), and Big Man, even after his initial fall, and apparent reformation as employee for the Bugle, was still an ever-looming presence, whether he'll return to crime or not, during the Ditko and early Romita years, like the Crime-Master story (issues 26-27) and Kingpin story no.1 (issues 50-52), added with Foswell being pretty mysterious himself, as Patch in between. Spencer Smythe, I would say, was a pretty fearsome name himself by the seventies, Amazing Spider-Man #105-107, #150, and #186-192.


Post-Ditko, I would add Rhino (but only by 1986, as he was for years previous mostly throwing down with Hulk) and Hammerhead. Yeah, Carnage is still THE last great lasting Spider-Foe, as far as I can tell.

Mary Jane-wise, no matter what, she shall always be the definitive gal for Spider-Man. If fading her as just a friend in the background, it would be no less than a waste of her character.

Atleast for me, when that time comes, none of that "ship-tease" that I don't buy, when the moment comes, when both Peter and Mary Jane says "I love you" again (without Peter acting like a loser about it), only then when the time I shall return to Amazing. Well, here's hoping it'll happen in issue #700, if anytime before would be great too, while it's still Spidey's 50th anniversary...

[Kevinroc]

Oh, I totally agree with you that the characters from the Lee/Ditko/Romita era are each one in a million. They have proven staying power, and their personalities make them almost alive (well, except for Gwen of course :wink:) And yeah. It seems that, as far as supporting cast members go, I think all of the Lee/Ditko/Romita creations have stood the test of time. That is pretty incredible.

I just don't think that characters should be written off just because they are new. Jean DeWolffe wasn't around that long, but she was a very well-developed character and was the basis (albeit in death) of one of the all-time greatest Spidey stories.

Glory Grant, while not a major character, has certainly developed into a strong, independent woman. I would consider her to be a great character, especially in recent years.

Nathan Lubensky, Willie Lumpkin, JJJ Sr., all of the boarders at Aunt May's house. All newer characters (Except maybe for Willie. Not sure if he appeared in early FF or not.) and some were just a flash in the pan, but they left their impact nonetheless.

As far as the older characters being pushed to the sidelines, I have two points to make:

1.) I respectfully disagree. Some are on the sidelines, and some aren't. I personally think that Slott has done a great job balancing the new characters with the old. That's just my opinion of course, and mileage varies.

2.) They'll be back. They always are. Aunt May, MJ, Harry, and pretty much every supporting cast member has been written out of the book before. They come back. So, I wouldn't worry too much about Harry and Aunt May's absence. Slott seems to greatly respect the history of Spidey, and I'm sure we'll see those characters again soon.

Sure, there's nothing that says the newer characters can't leave an impact on Spidey's world. Years from now, when Carlie and the Horizon employees have vanished into comic book limbo, we can keep discussing what we thought their impact was on Spidey's world and whether we liked them or not.

And yeah, the Lee/Ditko/Romita characters will come back no matter how many times they get written out.

[MrRoussis]

The supporting cast of say, the Stan Lee era, were just given more time to develop into full fledged personalities. Through their exposure, we were able to get a better sense of the world Peter lived in. The main reason, is that that these characters kept coming back and interacting, even if on a surface level, with Peter or Spider Man. Reading through my Stan Lee SM Omnibus, I can see why theres a love for Betty Brant, and for that matter, the nostalgia some have for the lengths to which JJ tried to prove his point that SM is nothing but a menace.

Gwen was a breath of fresh air for Peter and grounded him so to speak. I personally don't think she was given enough time to develop into someone more important to Peter. Her death, as many have said, made her important. In fact, her death allowed MJ to be something more than a party girl, turning her into a female best friend which later, over tons of issues and time, something more. Her character grew the hell up as did Peter. Will all these new supporting players get to the same point? That remains to be seen, and only will be if given time to grow. Carlie can easily become a Jean DeWolfe type of character. Eventually she'll have to lose that "we used to go out this is awkward thing" and Peter needs to act a little more his age both in and out of the suit and well have the book finally firmly establish some new interesting cast members. Starting with Carlie i guess. Who i hate. But whatever.

[Hypestyle]

mary jane needs to date someone else, who is not written to be an obvious villain, or dolt, jerk, abuser, wimp, etc.

[One More Day]

Sure, there's nothing that says the newer characters can't leave an impact on Spidey's world. Years from now, when Carlie and the Horizon employees have vanished into comic book limbo, we can keep discussing what we thought their impact was on Spidey's world and whether we liked them or not.

And yeah, the Lee/Ditko/Romita characters will come back no matter how many times they get written out.

Gwen Stacy and Uncle Ben never came back :frown:

But it won't matter anyways, because Mary Jane will be revealed to be the Phoenix Force or whatever and cause the Marvel wide reboot and she will be subsequently written out to have never existed. :biggrin:

[Kevinroc]

Gwen Stacy and Uncle Ben never came back :frown:

Uncle Ben was supposed to die. He's Peter's entire motivation for being Spider-Man.

Gwen's an interesting topic of discussion as her death has lasted 40 years. Of course Gerry Conway thinks the reason is because "she's only interesting because she's dead." :wink:


But it won't matter anyways, because Mary Jane will be revealed to be the Phoenix Force or whatever and cause the Marvel wide reboot and she will be subsequently written out to have never existed. :biggrin:

MJ will never be gone for good. :wink:

[Regulus B.]

MJ will never be gone for good. :wink:

Just like Stabler will always be Benson's partner. :tongue:

[Lester C.]

I stopped reading Spider-man because of OMD and I’m not coming back. For reasons dealing with OMD or the economy or whatever a lot of people stopped reading and aren’t coming back even if they get married again. For fans still reading Spider-man, I think it’s best if they just write out Mary Jane completely because as long as she is in the background Peter Parker’s love life can never move on and become a truly engaging storyline on its own merits which hurts the brand because in every incarnation of Spider-man Peter Parker’s love life takes center stage in many of his storylines and fans of the book who stuck around deserve to have the pleasure of witnessing Peter Parker’s love life without the anchor that is Mary Jane Watson and the changes OMD brought to the status quo.

[Kevinroc]

Just like Stabler will always be Benson's partner. :tongue:

I actually had to google this and all I get is it is a "Law & Order" reference. I still kinda don't get it. :confused:

[Kevin Nichols]

I actually had to google this and all I get is it is a "Law & Order" reference. I still kinda don't get it. :confused:

All you have to know is that Benson is hot. Really hot. So hot, that it doesn't matter who her partner is.

[Kevin Nichols]

Sure, there's nothing that says the newer characters can't leave an impact on Spidey's world. Years from now, when Carlie and the Horizon employees have vanished into comic book limbo, we can keep discussing what we thought their impact was on Spidey's world and whether we liked them or not.

Touche. Very nicely played.

[Regulus B.]

All you have to know is that Benson is hot. Really hot. So hot, that it doesn't matter who her partner is.

That scene... that scene with Alex... man oh man. <3

Point being, there's not a fictional character out there who's 100% solidly irreplaceable. Because it's fiction.

[Kevinroc]

That scene... that scene with Alex... man oh man. <3

Point being, there's not a fictional character out there who's 100% solidly irreplaceable. Because it's fiction.

Look out! Regs has that retcon weapon from Slott's She-Hulk run! :wink:

[Meehaul]

Fiction is what the writers dictate. There's nothing set or fated about it. There are fan wants in any number of directions but nothing is necessary or certain.

I never thought Marvel would be stupid enough to marry Pete and MJ. I also never thought Marvel would have the balls to end the marriage. I was wrong on both counts. It's a fine line a creative company has to walk: on one side, they're a creative company. The company's lifeblood is to BE creative and interesting. On the other side of the equation, they ARE a company. They have to make money. Sometimes, when you do something new and interesting, you can also make money. Sometimes, however, the pull is to "play it safe" and not disrupt the apple cart. Fans seem to demand "edgy and interesting," but they tend to buy "same ol', same ol'" over time. Nothing wrong with that, of course.

[Regulus B.]

Fans seem to demand "edgy and interesting," but they tend to buy "same ol', same ol'" over time.

Catering absolutely to fan demand is an impossible task. That said, Marvel is a company and market tastes play some measure - but even those can be capricious.

[Kevinroc]

Catering absolutely to fan demand is an impossible task. That said, Marvel is a company and market tastes play some measure - but even those can be capricious.

It's change vs. the illusion of change, essentially.

[Regulus B.]

It's change vs. the illusion of change, essentially.

A lot of long time successful companies seem to attempt some measure of balance between both - overall illusion of change, with some actual change sprinkled in now and then.

[Kevinroc]

A lot of long time successful companies seem to attempt some measure of balance between both - overall illusion of change, with some actual change sprinkled in now and then.

To an extent. With mainstream super hero comics, those kinds of changes are usually fairly short lived*. They usually seem to combine the change with some kind of illusion. Incredible Hulk is providing a good example of that right now. They brought Betty Ross back to life but she's got Red She-Hulk powers now. Can you really see her keeping those powers?

* Depending on what your definition of "short lived" is, of course.

[Regulus B.]

To an extent. With mainstream super hero comics, those kinds of changes are usually fairly short lived*. They usually seem to combine the change with some kind of illusion. Incredible Hulk is providing a good example of that right now. They brought Betty Ross back to life but she's got Red She-Hulk powers now. Can you really see her keeping those powers?

* Depending on what your definition of "short lived" is, of course.

If it sells? Yeah, I could.

[Meehaul]

A lot of long time successful companies seem to attempt some measure of balance between both - overall illusion of change, with some actual change sprinkled in now and then.

Well, Marvel did end the marriage. That was "real" change even if the execution was sort of silly. DC, I think, sort of discovered what made Batman work best and has been riding that along since the 80's. He became the noir-ish detective he'd been originally, and they've stuck to that theme with the occasional "Batman, Inc." or "new Robin" thrown into the mix. Pete's a little tricker, I think, because the focus is less on Spidey and more on Pete. That having been said, he's clearly had a long run as Marvel's most consistently popular solo hero.

[Kevinroc]

If it sells? Yeah, I could.

It's lasted longer than I would have thought already. But eventually I think Betty will go back to being non-Hulked. Just as her father will also go back to being "non-Hulked" eventually.

Just enjoy it while it lasts, however long that may be.

[Meehaul]

If it sells? Yeah, I could.

I think that's probably the key.

[One More Day]

It's lasted longer than I would have thought already. But eventually I think Betty will go back to being non-Hulked. Just as her father will also go back to being "non-Hulked" eventually.

Just enjoy it while it lasts, however long that may be.

I really like She-Rulk. What issues explain why she hates Hulk now :confused:

[Xenon]

It's lasted longer than I would have thought already. But eventually I think Betty will go back to being non-Hulked. Just as her father will also go back to being "non-Hulked" eventually.

Just enjoy it while it lasts, however long that may be.

I don't know about that. Red Hulk, at least, has the feeling of one of those permanent type changes that come along every often. Like the Black Cat. She's stuck around.

Red She-Hulk I think could stick, it depends on what they want to do with her and Bruce and that relationship.

[Kevinroc]

I don't know about that. Red Hulk, at least, has the feeling of one of those permanent type changes that come along every often. Like the Black Cat. She's stuck around.

Red She-Hulk I think could stick, it depends on what they want to do with her and Bruce and that relationship.

The problem as I see it is they gave too many characters Hulk-like powers. Skaar, Jen, Lyra, Betty, Ross, Rick. It's fine for the short term but it starts to make Bruce/Hulk (and yes, I know they're currently split up, but we know that won't last) less special.

But there are other examples I could think of that represent the illusion of change. Kid Loki (and I say this as someone who loves Kid Loki). Colossus with Juggernaut's powers.