Full reboot vs Soft reboot

[Empress96]

It's been about 5 months now and there has been some confusion on continuity within the DCnU. Things such as if Death of Superman happened, if George Perez's Wonder Woman is still canon, as well as the Teen Titan debacle. So what would have been better? A full reboot or what we have now? And just for fun (the answer probably obvious) will there be another crisis and how long do you think it will take?

[BohemiaDrinker]

Personally, I`d prefer a full on reboot. Thinking about it, really, the only downside to that would be that a lot of fan-favorite characters wouldn`T be available from the get go. Then again, as a fan of Wally West, I ask: so what?

About the next Crisis/reboot, whatever, it depends. If DC manages to work a cohesive continuity in the next two years and avoid the trappings of COIE (for instance), it may not even be necessary. If the continue as they`re going now, however, I`d say about 15 years.

[Chiasm]

I like it how it is now.

It doesn't make complete sense - how can nothing have changed in Green Lantern but so much has changed in Superman - but overall I like it.

[SpideyCzar]

None of it makes sense, give me a full reboot. It seems the comments that certain things dd happen is DC's way of pandering to the old school fans. I would enjoy the titles more if it was a complete reboot.

[Empress96]

None of it makes sense, give me a full reboot. It seems the comments that certain things dd happen is DC's way of pandering to the old school fans. I would enjoy the titles more if it was a complete reboot.
Yean that kinda annoyed me. Even if it involved my favorite characters I rather be told upfront about the situation instead of a bait and switch.

[Hulk_Is]

I voted for minor tweaks because I don't understand the mindset behind a full reboot exactly.

[Yttrium]

I vote for what we got: major adjustments.

Oh, that's not a poll option. I won't vote then.

[glennsim]

I like it how it is now.

It doesn't make complete sense - how can nothing have changed in Green Lantern but so much has changed in Superman - but overall I like it.

I think "nothing" is too strong a word. It's more like the last few years of Green Lantern's adventures have mostly happened as published, whereas those of Superman's did not.

[glennsim]

I would have *preferred* a full reboot, but I don't have a problem with what they did.

[Flashpoint]

What proponents of a full reboot who complained that the soft reboot is too confusing have failed to take into account is that long-term fans would have been far, far more offended and angry. The reality is, they wanted no reboot at all. Going all the full reboot way would've done nothing more than pour tons of salt into the wound and made fans only angrier.

Then there would've been criticism that DC was starting everything from the beginning all over again trying to outdo the classics. By keeping most classic stories in-continuity, they sidestep much worse criticism and outrage.

[Flashpoint]

That's why I acutally didn't read Flashpoint over the summer. They were rebooting the line, I didn't need an elaborate in-story explanation for it.

But if they hadn't, fans would be complaining that they didn't.

DC really was damned if they did, damned if they didn't. The way the New 52 was launched probably was the least of all evils. There really wasn't a way to do it that would have made absolutely everyone happy.

[Empress96]

I think COIE caused a syndrome of an in-story explanation for these type of things. I think it would have been better if they just wrote a nice ending for the characters instead of a big event.

[Still Don't Care]

I don't want comics to be such a bad storytelling medium that we find out everything that has ever happened to a character in their life in 5 issues, so I'm perfectly happy with the way things are now.

[phantom1592]

Say what you will... but it's for reasons like THIS, that I LOVED the Superboy prime wall punch...

What's that? Pa kent is suddenly in 50's instead of his 80's? PUNCH....

What's that? Man of Steel, Birthright, Secret origin... PUNCH, PUNCH, PUNCH...


Just a commentary that YES they KNOW that continuity went AWOL... but don't worry about it, THIS is the NEW status quo.

We don't need a 10 part crossover to see why a background character got a different artist ;)

All that said, I would have preferred an 'ultimate' style retelling/modernizing of the characters rather than this mess we have now. COIE did it right.... Everything you knew before is... before. Doesn't matter now. THIS is how it happens NOW...

The timeline crunch has ALWAYS been a problem. but forcing 15 years of character history into FIVE years is going to be a train wreck... especially when MAJOR things... Hal and Parrallax may or may not have happened... yet paved the way for So much of what is happening in GL right. Did Superman die? Did Flash die? Etc. etc..

For good or for bad, i'd like to be able to assume that what I know matters ;)

[LoneNecromancer]

What proponents of a full reboot who complained that the soft reboot is too confusing have failed to take into account is that long-term fans would have been far, far more offended and angry. The reality is, they wanted no reboot at all. Going all the full reboot way would've done nothing more than pour tons of salt into the wound and made fans only angrier.

Then there would've been criticism that DC was starting everything from the beginning all over again trying to outdo the classics. By keeping most classic stories in-continuity, they sidestep much worse criticism and outrage.


But if they hadn't, fans would be complaining that they didn't.

DC really was damned if they did, damned if they didn't. The way the New 52 was launched probably was the least of all evils. There really wasn't a way to do it that would have made absolutely everyone happy.

QFT.

And I prefer the soft reboot too. I'd prefer not having to wait for years for some of my favourite characters to show up.

[Flashpoint]

QFT.

And I prefer the soft reboot too. I'd prefer not having to wait for years for some of my favourite characters to show up.

Thanks. There just wasn't a way to do any kind of reboot that would please everyone. Reports from multiple sources indicate that Didio had been wanting to do this since at least 2005. Given that they held #1 for 3 months in a row and have continued to keep a virtual lock on the Top Ten titles the whole time, things really went incredibly well.

DC did a spectacularly good job with the New 52.

[SpideyCzar]

I wouldn't mind the wimp out partial reboot if DC had a few titles dedicated on explaining the history of the new universe. Instead of 19 Batman titles how about have 1 title show the chronology of the character in this new universe similiar to what they are doing in Action Comics? Not saying they should do this with every character but with some it'd be nice.

[BohemiaDrinker]

What proponents of a full reboot who complained that the soft reboot is too confusing have failed to take into account is that long-term fans would have been far, far more offended and angry. The reality is, they wanted no reboot at all. Going all the full reboot way would've done nothing more than pour tons of salt into the wound and made fans only angrier.

Well, I`m a long time fan and would`ve preferred. But then again, I believe there are 2 knids of old-time readers; those who were around during COIE (like me, and I believe you too), and those that came a little later. While the former probably wouldn`t have cared too much - in a been the5re, done that kind of way - the latter actually falls in who you`re using as examples.


Then there would've been criticism that DC was starting everything from the beginning all over again trying to outdo the classics. By keeping most classic stories in-continuity, they sidestep much worse criticism and outrage.

Here`s the thing, though; define "classics". I`d say that "Judas Contract" is a classic for instance, and there`s a very big chance that that is out of continuity. Same goes fror pretty much any Flash story published in the post-COIE period, Morrison`s JLA, Robinson`s, Goyer`s and Johns`JSA. COIE itself..... and the list goes on.

In that sense, what DC did greatly with the Nu52 was ort of a marketing scham, really; "Don`t worry, it`s not a reboot. Almost everything is still in continuity. Marv`s Titans are still there, Oracle is still there" etc, etc. And when the stories did come out, and sales success was assured, their discourse changed to "Yeah, no Titans, no Oracle, no Crisis. Tghis actually was a reboot."

So, their statements actually fit the moment - trying to minimize negative reaction - and not the actual reality. However, since some pieces fo continuity are still there, and no one seems to know if the "others" pieces are there or not, I think it`s very likely that continuity, if not managed with extreme care, will come back to bite DC in the ass; and why I was advocating for a full reboot.

[Flashpoint]

Well, I`m a long time fan and would`ve preferred. But then again, I believe there are 2 knids of old-time readers; those who were around during COIE (like me, and I believe you too), and those that came a little later. While the former probably wouldn`t have cared too much - in a been the5re, done that kind of way - the latter actually falls in who you`re using as examples.

Here`s the thing, though; define "classics". I`d say that "Judas Contract" is a classic for instance, and there`s a very big chance that that is out of continuity. Same goes fror pretty much any Flash story published in the post-COIE period, Morrison`s JLA, Robinson`s, Goyer`s and Johns`JSA. COIE itself..... and the list goes on.

In that sense, what DC did greatly with the Nu52 was ort of a marketing scham, really; "Don`t worry, it`s not a reboot. Almost everything is still in continuity. Marv`s Titans are still there, Oracle is still there" etc, etc. And when the stories did come out, and sales success was assured, their discourse changed to "Yeah, no Titans, no Oracle, no Crisis. Tghis actually was a reboot."

So, their statements actually fit the moment - trying to minimize negative reaction - and not the actual reality. However, since some pieces fo continuity are still there, and no one seems to know if the "others" pieces are there or not, I think it`s very likely that continuity, if not managed with extreme care, will come back to bite DC in the ass; and why I was advocating for a full reboot.

RE: Judas Contract
Honestly, it was never ever my favorite Titans story. Perez did a lot of layouts as opposed to full pencils during the closing chapters--and I respect Mike DeCarlo as a talented professional inker, but his inks with Perez's pencils were a terrible match. DeCarlo always made Perez's pencils look extremely stiff and flat.

As for the story...well, it did give us Nightwing and Jericho which I'll always be grateful for. And the covers were magnificent. But it really wasn't on my list of classic Titans stories for several reasons. Wolfman has always insisted Tara Markov was a sociopath. Yet at the end, she shows waaaaay too much emotion and feels horribly betrayed and rejected by Deathstroke. A true sociopath doesn't experience emotion or show feelings like a normal person or like an enraged psychopath (the latter of which is closer to Wolfman's actual depiction of her in the end).

And the fact Raven's ability to sense evil in everyone didn't work with Tara because of Trigon's influence thus meaning she was wrong was absolutely absurd, contradicting many earlier issues of NTT.

RE: Marketing scam
Oh, sure. That's a fair assessment and I would be foolish not to concede that you're right on that point. But I doubt it'll ever come back to bite them. Unlike COIE, DC wisely avoided committing themselves to a rigid, inflexible timeline like they did ala History Of The DC Universe and other books. They're deliberately refusing to confirm what is in and what is out. Which frankly is what DC should've done after COIE.

The timeline and all attendant continuity has been changed. They'll explain history as they go along and it hasn't hurt sales doing it that way. No sense in making the same mistakes DC did the first time with COIE.

[MajorHoy]

What proponents of a full reboot who complained that the soft reboot is too confusing have failed to take into account is that long-term fans would have been far, far more offended and angry. The reality is, they wanted no reboot at all. Going all the full reboot way would've done nothing more than pour tons of salt into the wound and made fans only angrier.

Sorry, but as long-term fan from long ago who just recently (about a year before Flashpoint) started getting into comic books again, I feel a full reboot would have been better.

To pander to us older fans, they should have just left the pre-Flashpoint as it was and just shuffled it to a different Earth. Then start fresh with a whole-new Earth for ALL the characters. This half-assed "soft reboot" where they wanted to keep some of the past intact (to some degree or another) but failed to really figure out WHAT and HOW just caused confusion and dissatisfaction from some long-term readers AND for the people writing, drawing and editing the comic books. (Was Jeremiah Arkham still in charge of Arkham Asylum, or had he been Black Mask recently? What about past Teen Titan groups / stories? Were there ever any Crisis events in the DCnU past?)

I like some of the new takes, but I'm annoyed/confused by others.

And the Batman franchise has been completely screwed up by some characters slightly de-aging while others have had some MAJOR de-aging and revisions to their back stories. As a group, these books are not as fresh as some of the other groups.

[BohemiaDrinker]

They're deliberately refusing to confirm what is in and what is out. Which frankly is what DC should've done after COIE.

Which is fine if, along the way, they don`t contradict what they put in the page. And this has already happened with the Teen Titans, and sort of happened with the Martian Manhunter being in JLA. I know that you don`t care for Jonn or for Lobdell`s Titans, but I´m using this as only an example of what bad management can do in this sort of situation. It`s fine "not to tell" if something is in or out; but once the company itself starts to act like "they don`t know", it gets messy. Quickly.

[Flashpoint]

Which is fine if, along the way, they don`t contradict what they put in the page. And this has already happened with the Teen Titans, and sort of happened with the Martian Manhunter being in JLA. I know that you don`t care for Jonn or for Lobdell`s Titans, but I´m using this as only an example of what bad management can do in this sort of situation. It`s fine "not to tell" if something is in or out; but once the company itself starts to act like "they don`t know", it gets messy. Quickly.

I can't argue with that.

And thanks for committing to memory my likes and dislikes. I'm flattered you remembered. :redface:

[Flashpoint]

Sorry, but as long-term fan from long ago who just recently (about a year before Flashpoint) started getting into comic books again, I feel a full reboot would have been better.

To pander to us older fans, they should have just left the pre-Flashpoint as it was and just shuffled it to a different Earth. Then start fresh with a whole-new Earth for ALL the characters. This half-assed "soft reboot" where they wanted to keep some of the past intact (to some degree or another) but failed to really figure out WHAT and HOW just caused confusion and dissatisfaction from some long-term readers AND for the people writing, drawing and editing the comic books. (Was Jeremiah Arkham still in charge of Arkham Asylum, or had he been Black Mask recently? What about past Teen Titan groups / stories? Were there ever any Crisis events in the DCnU past?)

I like some of the new takes, but I'm annoyed/confused by others.

And the Batman franchise has been completely screwed up by some characters slightly de-aging while others have had some MAJOR de-aging and revisions to their back stories. As a group, these books are not as fresh as some of the other groups.

I respect what you're saying. However, that would've divided sales into 2 different lines thus not keeping all of your customers on 1 product line. You'd have split sales in half and doubled the number of books with all selling at approximately the same sales numbers which were bad and getting worse.

DC now has a virtual lock on the Top Ten and is running literally tenths of a point behind Marvel following a full quarter at #1. The two haven't been this close in sales in years and DC has taken the Top Ten away from Marvel. I totally understand your reasons for not liking it and disagreeing with the approach. But you can't deny it's succeeded brilliantly and exceeded everyone's expectations.

[CrazyOldHermit]

Full reboot, with an actual ending for the previous universe.

[Sandor Clegane]

There will probably never be a full reboot for the main continuity, unless something drastic changes in how comics are sold. Because from almost every angle, it's a really bad idea.

A full reboot would necessitate the removal of all prior history and situations, and more importantly it would burden the creative staff with re-setting up the world, characters and situations.

And frankly, it's unnecessary. They don't need to junk everything about Superman to make him work - his origin, how he got his full powers, why he moved to Metropolis, his relationship with Lois Lane. They can simply recap elements of his past to fit them into the new mythos. Some of the old elements, such as Superman's origin or his death, will jibe somewhat with the old versions. A lot won't.

There's the rub - no matter which way you try to slice it, some elements of prior history - especially the big stories - stick. As it should be; it's history.

It just doesn't have to be 100% rigid and linear. Mythologies are a bit more fluid than that, especially once you get into decades of stories. So sticking a line in the sand and saying, "only go forward in this continuity in linear fashion, with no changes to the past or future" is an all-too rigid and ridiculous rule that doesn't belong in something as rich as the DC universe.

[MajorHoy]

I respect what you're saying. However, that would've divided sales into 2 different lines thus not keeping all of your customers on 1 product line. You'd have split sales in half and doubled the number of books with all selling at approximately the same sales numbers which were bad and getting worse.

You misunderstand my point.

There wouldn't be "two different product lines".

You have the pre-Flashpoint DC Earth on a separate Earth, but don't continue telling those stories in new issues. It's parked to the side so it can be revisited if/when DC wants to, but don't continue publishing those stories on a monthly basis.

Then do the New 52 as they did in September, but without this back-baggage of previously published stories being sort of crammed in to the new continuity. Either start all the characters off from Day One, or start them out as DC did with a five year past under their belts, but no past stories already written in stone until the writers tell those stories.

That would have been a lot cleaner than what they did with the "soft reboot" and referencing past events that had already been published in the past.

[Goggindowner]

I like certain aspects of both. With what we got, some of my favorite characters get to stick around in some form, and we get less chance of simply falling into story rehashing in the DCnU, which might happen if the entire history was dismantled.

That being said, I prefer clean slates to confusing mixtures. The thing I don't like about what we got in the DCnU is that it is a jumbled mess, where some characters went completely unchanged (due only to popularity) while others where altered to large degrees. And trying to say it all happened in five years is just stupid. DC should have never said that. So in short, I voted "Clean Slate."

[Vaiyt]

Their purpose was to bring back lapsed readers and give a starting point for people already familiar with the visual mayhem of current comics.

Given those objectives, a soft reboot was the correct choice, as it allowed change without a paradigm shift. That way, the old fans, still their main source of readers, are more likely to stay on board.

However, just because I understand their motives, it doesn't mean I agree with them. I don't.

[Sandor Clegane]

Are you guys really that confused, though?

I'm not reading many of the DCnU books, admittedly. But nothing I've heard or read has confused me. Frankly, I don't think DC's published a superhero story with the depth to confuse your average reader since Seven Soldiers.

DC has stipulated that while the recent Batman and Green Lantern stories "count", and some of the bigger character/DCU stories count (sort of), the rest of it is off the table.

They are now free to bring it back old situations / stories...if they don't break the new history. Otherwise they're ignoring it, even contradicting it; because it's not the same house redecorated. It's a new house with a lot of the same furnishings.

I don't see how that's confusing. Unless you need to fit the old history in somehow. If so...just stop doing that. Treat the new DCU as its own thing, and there won't be any "confusion".

[AJBopp]

Pretty sure I'm all alone in the world with my feelings, but I think it would be best to wrap up all the titles with a nice tidy ending...some good, some bad...then start over from scratch. There is no possibility for cross-dimensional mash-ups. There is no history to get muddled up with "which earth did that happen on?"

Marvel could use a big dose of that too, but not under the current creative team.

[MajorHoy]

Are you guys really that confused, though?

I'm not reading many of the DCnU books, admittedly. But nothing I've heard or read has confused me. Frankly, I don't think DC's published a superhero story with the depth to confuse your average reader since Seven Soldiers. . .

The "confusion" occurs more from what DC has "said" in various interviews and how that relates to what has already showed up in the comic books.

Most of the stories themselves haven't been that confusing just yet, but we're only five-or-six issues in to the stories. It's when situation A has happened in a comic book, and then an editor from DC says "no, it's now B in the DCnU".

[glennsim]

The "confusion" occurs more from what DC has "said" in various interviews and how that relates to what has already showed up in the comic books.

Most of the stories themselves haven't been that confusing just yet, but we're only five-or-six issues in to the stories. It's when situation A has happened in a comic book, and then an editor from DC says "no, it's now B in the DCnU".

Then stop listening to what they "say" and just worry about what is actually printed. What they say is always subject to change.

[Goggindowner]

Confusion might not be the right word for me. Frustration probably is more accurate. DC should just button their lips and not make any reference to what is and is not cannon these days. If it isn't important to the current story, it is ignorable either way.

The problem is, as others have mentioned, that DC itself can't even figure out what the history of it's comics are now.

Don't get me wrong, I can still read and enjoy the current books and stories and put all the past aside. I can take the current at face value and just enjoy it. But eventually, this stuff is going to start coming up as writers start referencing or retconning, and if things are set up like they are now, it could turn in to a total mess.

[Buried Alien]

Confusion might not be the right word for me. Frustration probably is more accurate. DC should just button their lips and not make any reference to what is and is not cannon these days. If it isn't important to the current story, it is ignorable either way.

The problem is, as others have mentioned, that DC itself can't even figure out what the history of it's comics are now.

Don't get me wrong, I can still read and enjoy the current books and stories and put all the past aside. I can take the current at face value and just enjoy it. But eventually, this stuff is going to start coming up as writers start referencing or retconning, and if things are set up like they are now, it could turn in to a total mess.

Actually, I think that the more that the New 52 is *written in*, the clearer and less confusing it will be. It's confusing for everybody now (including the writers and editors) because it's largely unestablished. A few years down the line, things will settle and the picture will be clearer.

The first few years after COIE were pretty chaotic too.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Goggindowner]

Actually, I think that the more that the New 52 is *written in*, the clearer and less confusing it will be. It's confusing for everybody now (including the writers and editors) because it's largely unestablished. A few years down the line, things will settle and the picture will be clearer.

The first few years after COIE were pretty chaotic too.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I think it could go either way. Either the writers and editors get on the same page, and put "Taboo" stickers are certain stories that every one knows to steer clear of, or every writer and editor picks and chooses what they want for their own book, with no clear, complete direction to keep things together.

Worst case scenario, it gets so convoluted they do another soft reboot in 20 years and try and start fresh. Honestly, there isn't much chance that won't happen, anyway.:frown:

[Buried Alien]

I think it could go either way. Either the writers and editors get on the same page, and put "Taboo" stickers are certain stories that every one knows to steer clear of, or every writer and editor picks and chooses what they want for their own book, with no clear, complete direction to keep things together.

Worst case scenario, it gets so convoluted they do another soft reboot in 20 years and try and start fresh. Honestly, there isn't much chance that won't happen, anyway.:frown:

Maybe, but I *really* don't worry about comics that might or might not be published in twenty years' time.

Besides, if history is any indication, having a big shakeup in the comics industry every twenty years or so is a *healthy* thing.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Goggindowner]

Maybe, but I *really* don't worry about comics that might or might not be published in twenty years' time.

Besides, if history is any indication, having a big shakeup in the comics industry every twenty years or so is a *healthy* thing.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Well like I said before, none of this is conflicting with my enjoyment of the current books I am reading. I don't really care if Morrison's Animal Man is cannon, it doesn't take away from how great the book is (to me) right now.

I guess my point is, DC shouldn't have a stance on cannon vs non-cannon until everyone is on the same page.

[Buried Alien]

Well like I said before, none of this is conflicting with my enjoyment of the current books I am reading. I don't really care if Morrison's Animal Man is cannon, it doesn't take away from how great the book is (to me) right now.

I guess my point is, DC shouldn't have a stance on cannon vs non-cannon until everyone is on the same page.

I consider the current situation a "working version." DC can't spend several years not publishing comics as it gets its house in order regarding the continuity of its universe, so it has to use an "Articles of Confederation" approach until it can get down to the business of writing a "Constitution of the New 52," if that makes any sense.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Hawk_fan]

I really hate the DCnU. The universe is more confusing after this new reboot.

However, I'm glad Batman, Green Lantern and The Flash didn't change much.


Like Infinite Crisis, I think DC missed the boat with this reboot. Fix the minor things that needed fixing for each character, but don't make things worse by altering costumes, squeezing the timeline, eliminating history/characters and messing with a character's origin.

Concentrate on good stories and art instead.

[glennsim]

I really hate the DCnU. The universe is more confusing after this new reboot.

However, I'm glad Batman, Green Lantern and The Flash didn't change much.


Like Infinite Crisis, I think DC missed the boat with this reboot. Fix the minor things that needed fixing for each character, but don't make things worse by altering costumes, squeezing the timeline, eliminating history/characters and messing with a character's origin.

Concentrate on good stories and art instead.

Giving the writers and artists the freedom to do all those things is how they get them to produce good stories and art. DC has always been focused on good stories and art.

[Disco Pyg]

For the most part I like the way it is now. Minor tweaks for certain characters (Batman, Green Lantern), more drastic overhauls for others (Superman, Flash) and full reboots for the rest.

Personally I'm willing to gloss over any potential continuity issues with certain parts of the DCnU (which new readers are unlikely to pick up on anyway) as long as the stories being told in the here and now are up to par. And I have to say, I've been picking up and enjoying more DC books now than I was pre-reboot.

[club33az]

A full reboot would necessitate the removal of all prior history and situations, and more importantly it would burden the creative staff with re-setting up the world, characters and situations."Burden the creative staff???" Wait a minute -- do you really think Morrison and Morales feel burdened by creating Superman's world again? In fact, that's exactly why Morales took on the book. Because Supes was a blank slate and they could take him back to the Fleischer era.

[Disco Pyg]

Personally a big reason why I wouldn't want a full reboot is because we'd be dealing with nothing but origin stories for at least half a year after the relaunch. I'm enjoying the new take on Superman's origin over in Action Comics but I certainly wouldn't want every book to be going the same way.

[SpideyCzar]

Personally a big reason why I wouldn't want a full reboot is because we'd be dealing with nothing but origin stories for at least half a year after the relaunch. I'm enjoying the new take on Superman's origin over in Action Comics but I certainly wouldn't want every book to be going the same way.


It really wouldn't have to be like that though if they did it right, everyone knows Superman, Batman, Flash and Green Lantern's origin. DC could've included a 1 page origin or recap page like Marvel does, and just reboot the universe telling new takes on classic characters, and infused the market with original new ideas. Instead what we have no is Ultimate DC.

It's not so much that the New DCU is confusing it's just a little annoying for longtime readers how such monumental events can happen to a character (Death of Superman, Lois & Clark's Wedding, Batman's Death, Wally West etc etc) And as a long time reader you don't know if those events happened or not. And if they did happen, then it just muddles with the current stories trying to be told. So instead of a partial reboot like they did they should've just went with a full on reboot, and start fresh.

[MajorHoy]

I consider the current situation a "working version." DC can't spend several years not publishing comics as it gets its house in order regarding the continuity of its universe, so it has to use an "Articles of Confederation" approach until it can get down to the business of writing a "Constitution of the New 52," if that makes any sense.

But didn't DC try to sell the switch toi the DCnU as a supposedly well thought-out plan that had been in the work for more than a few months? :confused:

(Oh, wait. I'm making the mistake of listening to people like DiDio again, I guess.)

[Zak213]

In the beginning, I probably liked either a full reboot going back to the beginning since its easier to work with.

I'm not a fan of the compression or John's nostalgia for Allen and his ilk so I would just avoid those.

But a relaunch focusing on the next generation of superheroes with Grayson and the others stepping up would have been better.

[dumbstruck]

What proponents of a full reboot who complained that the soft reboot is too confusing have failed to take into account is that long-term fans would have been far, far more offended and angry. The reality is, they wanted no reboot at all. Going all the full reboot way would've done nothing more than pour tons of salt into the wound and made fans only angrier.

Then there would've been criticism that DC was starting everything from the beginning all over again trying to outdo the classics. By keeping most classic stories in-continuity, they sidestep much worse criticism and outrage.


Well, as a longtime fan, I would've preferred a full-on reboot. If you're going to restart something, do it right.

[Goggindowner]

Well, as a longtime fan, I would've preferred a full-on reboot. If you're going to restart something, do it right.

And as others have mentioned, the key to "doing it right" would most likely start with actually giving the DCU an ending, but an ending that sets up a situation where the DCnU is created.

And no, they wouldn't have to retell origin stories. You can then actually start the DCnU five years in. But in this case, you aren't taking 30 years of history and cramming it in to 5 years, you are just saying they have been around for 5 years, and go. Or at least say Superman appeared 5 years ago, a few others since then, and some right now. It could be a mix of established supers, the ones who followed their lead, and the new guys who's origins ARE being told.

[BrotherUnitNo_4]

But a relaunch focusing on the next generation of superheroes with Grayson and the others stepping up would have been better.

This so hard!

I long for the day that DC or Marvel will take this step and allow second-generation heroes to take over.


And as others have mentioned, the key to "doing it right" would most likely start with actually giving the DCU an ending, but an ending that sets up a situation where the DCnU is created.

And no, they wouldn't have to retell origin stories. You can then actually start the DCnU five years in. But in this case, you aren't taking 30 years of history and cramming it in to 5 years, you are just saying they have been around for 5 years, and go. Or at least say Superman appeared 5 years ago, a few others since then, and some right now. It could be a mix of established supers, the ones who followed their lead, and the new guys who's origins ARE being told.

Exactly how I feel in regards to a full reboot. There's nothing wrong with starting in media res.

[Lancerman]

And as others have mentioned, the key to "doing it right" would most likely start with actually giving the DCU an ending, but an ending that sets up a situation where the DCnU is created.

And no, they wouldn't have to retell origin stories. You can then actually start the DCnU five years in. But in this case, you aren't taking 30 years of history and cramming it in to 5 years, you are just saying they have been around for 5 years, and go. Or at least say Superman appeared 5 years ago, a few others since then, and some right now. It could be a mix of established supers, the ones who followed their lead, and the new guys who's origins ARE being told.

That pretty much what they are doing now.

[LoneNecromancer]

But a relaunch focusing on the next generation of superheroes with Grayson and the others stepping up would have been better.

I doubt they'd ever do it, but I'd like to see it as a cartoon or a small line of comics set in the future or another Earth.

In fact, yeah, a cartoon would be fantastic. You could make it the future to Young Justice (like how Batman Beyond was in the future for the DCAU and he could crossover with the Justice League) and then have a time travel crossover episode. :cool:

[Goggindowner]

That pretty much what they are doing now.

Except with what they have done now, there is a lingering question of what's in, what isn't, what's been altered, who's been altered, so on and so forth. Made worse still by the publisher themselves not seeming to know the answers to any of the questions, and making contradictory statements about it.

Plus everything that IS in now happened in a 5 year time frame. This works in some cases, but in cases like the Batman family, it feels impossible.

Actually giving the DCU an ending, and completely starting over, erases all of that confusion.

[Lancerman]

Except with what they have done now, there is a lingering question of what's in, what isn't, what's been altered, who's been altered, so on and so forth. Made worse still by the publisher themselves not seeming to know the answers to any of the questions, and making contradictory statements about it.

Plus everything that IS in now happened in a 5 year time frame. This works in some cases, but in cases like the Batman family, it feels impossible.

Actually giving the DCU an ending, and completely starting over, erases all of that confusion.

If you start over then just start over. Don't force it five years into the future because you want to get in some popular characters. Honestly then there is just going to be a constant demand to go back and retell stories that occured in the 5 years. Which renders it useless because there will be a backstory and in most cases it would be identical to the old DCU.

So DC basically just took it's history, cut out alot of the excessive useless events, kept in tact the essentials, rebooted certain things that didn't gel, and compressed every thing. Which in turn gives pretty much the same effect as starting over with a 5 year jump.

That Batman family is always going to be convoluted unless you say that occured over roughly 20 years which ages Bruce Wayne too much. Even before the reboot it was convoluted.

[Zero Hunter]

Whats bad about full reboots is that you then have to spend the next five years with writers reintroducing all the old charcters with "edgy and clever" new twists. Sometimes it works pretty well like how they reintroduced the Fatal Five in the Legion reboot, but other times it becomes a mess like alot of the Ultimate line was over at marvel with new orgins being dragged out for 6 months at a time.

[Lancerman]

Whats bad about full reboots is that you then have to spend the next five years with writers reintroducing all the old charcters with "edgy and clever" new twists. Sometimes it works pretty well like how they reintroduced the Fatal Five in the Legion reboot, but other times it becomes a mess like alot of the Ultimate line was over at marvel with new orgins being dragged out for 6 months at a time.

Thats really the problem. Just take Batman. You have to put him in some solo stories. Then you have to introduce Dick. Keep him as Robin long enough for it to see as meaningful as it is. Then introduce Babs. Then phase Dick into the Nightwing role somehow so Jason Todd comes back. Redo death in the family. Then do a Tim Drake orgin. And thats assuming you don't have a giant push for Damian in which case everything goes to hell. Also it doesn't take into account major villians like Bane who are defined by arcs like Knightfall that somehow need to be readapted.

[phantom1592]

This so hard!

I long for the day that DC or Marvel will take this step and allow second-generation heroes to take over.


Been there, done that.

That was my biggest gripe with the 90's. We had Green Lantern IV teamed up with Flash III and Green Arrow II. We had Robin III as the most successful robin yet... Nightwing was a better batman than batman was... (though Ironically when he actually BECAME batman... I liked him LESS... I blame Damien!)

The old 'rules' for DC was a strict NO RESSURECTION philosophy. The costume was more important the man wearing it, so when Hal or ollie or Flash was dead... there were no innate promises of them ever coming back. the cosutme passed on to the next guy.

MARVEL was always bigger on the Secret ID being more than the costume... and they couldn't even pretend that their deaths meant someting... but DC did.

Now days they're exactly the same... but we already saw 'the age of the Sidekick.' Personally, I prefer the Barrys, Hals, and Ollies any day of the week.

[Lancerman]

Been there, done that.

That was my biggest gripe with the 90's. We had Green Lantern IV teamed up with Flash III and Green Arrow II. We had Robin III as the most successful robin yet... Nightwing was a better batman than batman was... (though Ironically when he actually BECAME batman... I liked him LESS... I blame Damien!)

The old 'rules' for DC was a strict NO RESSURECTION philosophy. The costume was more important the man wearing it, so when Hal or ollie or Flash was dead... there were no innate promises of them ever coming back. the cosutme passed on to the next guy.

MARVEL was always bigger on the Secret ID being more than the costume... and they couldn't even pretend that their deaths meant someting... but DC did.

Now days they're exactly the same... but we already saw 'the age of the Sidekick.' Personally, I prefer the Barrys, Hals, and Ollies any day of the week.

In all fairness though DC really only played that up in the 90's when everyone and their mother was trying to find a new way to shift the status quo so that they could make a quick buck.

Barry and Hal weren't created to be the successors to Jay and Allen. They were created to be the definitive iterations of those heroes. That only changed because Barry got stagnant before crisis and editors wanted to change up the GL franchise. Thats what started the whole push. But eventually even those core cases found themselves reverting back. But by that point an entirely new generation. So alot the original Titans generation got stuck in this weird position.
.

[Ben D]

Full reboot.

For one, it really does feel like certain writers picked favorites, not in a good way.

I actually think it would piss of old fans less. Instead of feeling that DC is saying that "Batman is fine but (insert favorite characters) needs to be radically changed to work." I have a feeling quite a few fans would actually come back - maybe more than the ones who did with the DCnU as they might be more interested in a complete restart then another albeit more daring Crisis on Infinite Earths.


Like every event based retcon DC has ever done

Fixed it for you.

[deadboy80]

Ya, hard to say. A full on reboot would probably be best ,I guess. But that means characters like Dick Grayson wouldn't even be around. No sidekicks for a while. I'm not sure how well that would go over. That would also limit the titles you could produce. No Tirana for example. However, like the obviouse examples of Supermans death and the Tirana history, I feel we are bound for either another Crisis Event to try to make sense of it. Or all the old stuff will eventually bleed into the new as it did in the past.

[Lancerman]

Full reboot.

For one, it really does feel like certain writers picked favorites, not in a good way.

I actually think it would piss of old fans less. Instead of feeling that DC is saying that "Batman is fine but (insert favorite characters) needs to be radically changed to work." I have a feeling quite a few fans would actually come back - maybe more than the ones who did with the DCnU as they might be more interested in a complete restart then another albeit more daring Crisis on Infinite Earths.



Fixed it for you.

See the whole issue is that you are basically going to end up with a situation where several years (maybe even decades) is basically a retelling of certian stories.

[Ben D]

See the whole issue is that you are basically going to end up with a situation where several years (maybe even decades) is basically a retelling of certian stories.

Not especially. Easy enough, there could be an editorial edict giving the "order" (I'm not sure of the exact phrasing) saying that even if there is a story being slightly retold (lets say Hal and Ollie meeting again, or Batman fighting the Joker for the first time) it would have to be an altogether new story - no vat of acid, no road trip. When I say full reboot I mean full reboot besides characterizations.

[Zak213]

@BrotherUnitNo_4-

That might solve the need to constantly reboot as you could, theoretically let each new generation get their own version.

but the main problem is keeping these character's interesting when they live in a world where superhero-ism is the norm.

I think its easier to pull of with DC as we had different characters be the main GL and Flash and the world didn't end.

@loneNecromancer-

Cartoon is better as a line would feel redundant if its not set far enough.

i'd love to do a cartoon like that.

[Ben D]

This so hard!

I long for the day that DC or Marvel will take this step and allow second-generation heroes to take over.

That was kind of what was happening in the 1990s and then Kevin Smith's Green Arrow came along.

It may not mean much now, but Marvel did let the second generation of X-men take over.

[MajorHoy]

That was kind of what was happening in the 1990s and then Kevin Smith's Green Arrow came along.

It may not mean much now, but Marvel did let the second generation of X-men take over.

And in 1977, DC introduced a new generation of the Doom Patrol.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pScx8BN4h3s/TA98gP8gyqI/AAAAAAAAIsc/eetJaeedDCk/s1600/showcase+94.jpg