Pants to be Darkened! - Wonder Woman pilot (2011)

[ArnoldoAAD]

For Those who havent Watch it and those who have

http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z433/Ravager11/WW2011AREVIEW.png

Film Brain, Nash and Linkara Review Wonder Woman (2011) (http://blip.tv/radio-dead-air/wonder-woman-2011-a-review-5888251)

the pilot is just so bad
but the rift is enjoyable

PANTS TO BE DARKENED!

[Dr. Hurt]

There is already a thread about the tv series pilot. Just saying...

[ArnoldoAAD]

There is already a thread about the tv series pilot. Just saying...

I Know but this is way more amusing than just watching the pilot

what were they thinking really, they transformed Wonder Woman into Jack Bauer

[Dr. Hurt]

Bauer + Ally McBeal. :frown:

[ArnoldoAAD]

Bauer + Ally McBeal. :frown:

actually
Bauer + Ally McBeal + Bruce Wayne
that would be the 3 secret IDs

[ArnoldoAAD]

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2012/01/WW_Cv8_sadjfhkgsdf792361.jpg

wow, after thinking about it for a moment
how come Azzarello´s version can get away with so much while the pilot failed
it might be a matter of subtlety

[DarkKnghtJared]

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2012/01/WW_Cv8_sadjfhkgsdf792361.jpg

wow, after thinking about it for a moment
how come Azzarello´s version can get away with so much while the pilot failed
it might be a matter of subtlety

Unless I missed something, Diana hasn't killed any regular people by throwing a lead pipe like a javelin in Azz's run. She's way more hardcore in the current comics, but she hasn't killed anything.

[ArnoldoAAD]

Unless I missed something, Diana hasn't killed any regular people by throwing a lead pipe like a javelin in Azz's run. She's way more hardcore in the current comics, but she hasn't killed anything.

well, she killed that centaur guy on issue one but i agree thats what i mean with subtlety
the pilot wasnt subtle that they tried to make WW badass and it completely fail

[Theozilla]

well, she killed that centaur guy on issue one but i agree thats what i mean with subtlety
the pilot wasnt subtle that they tried to make WW badass and it completely fail

Actually she did not even kill the centaur, she sliced off its arm but she actually did make any killing blow. The centaurs just ran away. Also the context is entirely different, the dark fantasy setting that the comic is in and the opponents being mythical beasts permits a greater degree of violence than the setting of the pilot.

[toastedbread]

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2012/01/WW_Cv8_sadjfhkgsdf792361.jpg

wow, after thinking about it for a moment
how come Azzarello´s version can get away with so much while the pilot failed
it might be a matter of subtlety

Context more than subtlety, I think. Well, that and factual differences in terms of what Azzarello is doing and what the pilot did.

In addition to not javelining anyone through the throat, Azzarello's Diana also hasn't been shown enjoying torture with an instrument of truth laying on her victim's chest (and it's referred to as the lasso of truth in the pilot, yes), she hasn't been put into any stereotypical situations reminiscent of bad romantic comedies about single 30-somethings and she also hasn't shown casual contempt for the rule of law (granted, she hasn't expressed - verbally or through action - an opinion one way or the other on how she believes a superhero should operate under the law of an elected government, but that at least means she hasn't demonstrated an offensively incoherent attitude either).

[ArnoldoAAD]

well i just find it very fascinating how 2 different ppl can have the same idea and one works and one just sucks

[toastedbread]

well i just find it very fascinating how 2 different ppl can have the same idea and one works and one just sucks

I don't think they are the same idea in any meaningful sense?

Because Azzarello is rooting her more strongly in Greek myth, which includes casting her as a demigoddess going through traditional martial trials - casting her as a warrior in a dark fantasy. It's in the tradition of Hercules or Perseus or even Conan.

The pilot roots her more strongly in the modern world and the legal ramifications of a superhero in society, which includes casting her as a Jack Bauer-style ends-justifies-the-means soldier facing issues like due process and burden of proof and the ethics of torture.

Both include a strong emphasis on physical combat, and perhaps a little more brutality than we're used to, but pretty much everything else, including the context of, and reasons for including, that brutality are very different. Especially the way that the latter relies on patterns of moral self-justification in order to create a sense of complexity or perceived realism, while the former does not. I'm not saying that the former is inherently moral, or that it excludes the ability to ask moral questions, I'm just saying it's not a genre that includes moral quandaries as part of its foundation. Perseus can be portrayed as an unironic hero, Jack Bauer can't - Jack Bauer is designed to ask the questions about the line of acceptable behaviour in extreme circumstances; the only question is whether he does it well or poorly.

Brian Azzarello executes his concept well.

David E Kelley executes his concept poorly.

But they're definitely different concepts.

In addition, while I enjoy seeing Wonder Woman as a mythic warrior hero, I have no desire, and think it's inappropriate - perhaps antithetical to her character - for her to be cast as a modern soldier antihero. That, however, is arguably a matter of personal interpretation as I know others believe the same of Azzarello's take.

[Dr. Hurt]

I don't think they are the same idea in any meaningful sense?

Because Azzarello is rooting her more strongly in Greek myth, which includes casting her as a demigoddess going through traditional martial trials - casting her as a warrior in a dark fantasy. It's in the tradition of Hercules or Perseus or even Conan.

The pilot roots her more strongly in the modern world and the legal ramifications of a superhero in society, which includes casting her as a Jack Bauer-style ends-justifies-the-means soldier facing issues like due process and burden of proof and the ethics of torture.

Both include a strong emphasis on physical combat, and perhaps a little more brutality than we're used to, but pretty much everything else, including the context of, and reasons for including, that brutality are very different. Especially the way that the latter relies on patterns of moral self-justification in order to create a sense of complexity or perceived realism, while the former does not. I'm not saying that the former is inherently moral, or that it excludes the ability to ask moral questions, I'm just saying it's not a genre that includes moral quandaries as part of its foundation. Perseus can be portrayed as an unironic hero, Jack Bauer can't - Jack Bauer is designed to ask the questions about the line of acceptable behaviour in extreme circumstances; the only question is whether he does it well or poorly.

Brian Azzarello executes his concept well.

David E Kelley executes his concept poorly.

But they're definitely different concepts.

In addition, while I enjoy seeing Wonder Woman as a mythic warrior hero, I have no desire, and think it's inappropriate - perhaps antithetical to her character - for her to be cast as a modern soldier antihero. That, however, is arguably a matter of personal interpretation as I know others believe the same of Azzarello's take.

GREAT post!

[ArnoldoAAD]

I don't think they are the same idea in any meaningful sense?

Because Azzarello is rooting her more strongly in Greek myth, which includes casting her as a demigoddess going through traditional martial trials - casting her as a warrior in a dark fantasy. It's in the tradition of Hercules or Perseus or even Conan.

The pilot roots her more strongly in the modern world and the legal ramifications of a superhero in society, which includes casting her as a Jack Bauer-style ends-justifies-the-means soldier facing issues like due process and burden of proof and the ethics of torture.

Both include a strong emphasis on physical combat, and perhaps a little more brutality than we're used to, but pretty much everything else, including the context of, and reasons for including, that brutality are very different. Especially the way that the latter relies on patterns of moral self-justification in order to create a sense of complexity or perceived realism, while the former does not. I'm not saying that the former is inherently moral, or that it excludes the ability to ask moral questions, I'm just saying it's not a genre that includes moral quandaries as part of its foundation. Perseus can be portrayed as an unironic hero, Jack Bauer can't - Jack Bauer is designed to ask the questions about the line of acceptable behaviour in extreme circumstances; the only question is whether he does it well or poorly.

Brian Azzarello executes his concept well.

David E Kelley executes his concept poorly.

But they're definitely different concepts.

In addition, while I enjoy seeing Wonder Woman as a mythic warrior hero, I have no desire, and think it's inappropriate - perhaps antithetical to her character - for her to be cast as a modern soldier antihero. That, however, is arguably a matter of personal interpretation as I know others believe the same of Azzarello's take.

very good points but what i mean is the idea itself of making WW relevant to this era and the general public, which is interesting cause Azzarello is using older concepts and yet for me i think its working more modern, while the pilot tried to be all the way modern and well you see the result

[Awesome!]

I hadn't seen any of the pilot before now. It's really bad. Wonder Woman fans should be happy this didn't get picked up.

[ArnoldoAAD]

I hadn't seen any of the pilot before now. It's really bad. Wonder Woman fans should be happy this didn't get picked up.

well im glad that you got the chance to see it now :biggrin:

hope you at least enjoyed the review

[hellacre]

Yikes. That was terrible. But how I enjoyed those reviewers.

[toastedbread]

Dr Hurt - thank you :)

Arnold - yes, I see your point. I think it's because while David Kelley's pilot uses relatively modern ideas and Azzarello reaches further back into myth, the execution is a reversal of that, with Kelley using a series of cliches to explore his ideas and Azzarello working harder to create an old-new cadence of speech for the gods, throwing out unusual quirks like barefooot deities, and not quite going entirely modern or entirely classical for the designs of the pantheon, which helps him - in my mind at least - avoid the pitfall of seeming to rely on the cliches "modern myth" has built up as a subgenre.

[Adrian Tullberg]

I can't understand how any writer, when handed a character that has a device that can compell the truth out of anybody, would need to use torture. Especially when it's one of the core and public aspects of her mythology.

[ArnoldoAAD]

I can't understand how any writer, when handed a character that has a device that can compell the truth out of anybody, would need to use torture. Especially when it's one of the core and public aspects of her mythology.

Cause the show had an agenda to say that torturing terrorist is good
werent you paying attention?

[Mecegirl]

I am really happy that this failed. It looks horrible.

[Empress96]

That review was funny and accurate. Man, that pilot was terrible :( But my favorite line had to be this
"Good lord you can't even get Wonder Woman right, don't drag Superman into this mess."

[Legato]

I am really happy that this failed. It looks horrible.

Same here. I can see why all the other networks avoided that show like the plague.

[LEADER DESSLOK]

Ya know, if anything, this pilot has now given me the perfect Da-Daist response to anything I hear that sounds illogical or outright stupid and meanigless--

"PANTS TO BE DARKENED!"

[Voltron64]

I can't understand how any writer, when handed a character that has a device that can compell the truth out of anybody, would need to use torture. Especially when it's one of the core and public aspects of her mythology.

Drugs? It is the Entertainment industry after all.

[dupersuper]

making WW relevant

I still don't know what people are talking about when they say this about super heroes...

[ArnoldoAAD]

I still don't know what people are talking about when they say this about super heroes...

hey! you misquote me
I said making WW relevant to this era and the general public

which i think was the purpose of both the comic and the tv series

making WW modern, and i mean that on same sense that Marvel did with the Ultimate U

the series Failed hard at it but i think both have he same intention

[dupersuper]

hey! you misquote me
I said making WW relevant to this era and the general public

which i think was the purpose of both the comic and the tv series

making WW modern, and i mean that on same sense that Marvel did with the Ultimate U

the series Failed hard at it but i think both have he same intention

How did I misquote you? I just don't know what a "relevant" super hero is supposed to be.

[ArnoldoAAD]

How did I misquote you? I just don't know what a "relevant" super hero is supposed to be.

one thing is being relevant in general and another is to be relevant to the time

there has not been any WW movie(not counting the animated one) or series after the Lynda Carter´s, so in context WW is really an old concept for the general public
there is no modern WW for them

[Obsidian Thought]

You know, at the very least, WW should have her own animated series. That might get the ball rollin'.

[Legato]

You know, at the very least, WW should have her own animated series. That might get the ball rollin'.

She should have had one back when Bruce Timm was making animated series for Superman and Batman. Sadly the performance of the animated movie is whats holding WB back from making a animated series.

[Knightmare10880]

She should have had one back when Bruce Timm was making animated series for Superman and Batman. Sadly the performance of the animated movie is whats holding WB back from making a animated series.

And what kills me the most about is that the Wonder Woman was not one of if not the best animated movie that DC Animated has produced since Batman: Mask of the Phantasm.

[JimRaynor55]

I (finally) saw the full David E. Kelley pilot today, before watching Linkara's review. These guys were spot on. The in-your-face vigilantism and general mean spiritedness of this Wonder Woman portrayal was just jarring. And to think all the previous fan complaints (based on the leaked script details) were focused on her identity as a corporate exec, or lines like "Big tits save lives." Those things seem almost small now, compared to the full pilot's glorification of brutality. :eek:

Besides the terrible portrayal of Wonder Woman, this pilot was just a downer. Full of depression and self-pity. I'm not surprised that mainstream test audiences were unimpressed with this as well.

Thank God this pilot didn't make it to air. I'd rather have no Wonder Woman show than something that would completely destroy her public image.


She should have had one back when Bruce Timm was making animated series for Superman and Batman. Sadly the performance of the animated movie is whats holding WB back from making a animated series.

The WB says that the 2009 Wonder Woman movie had disappointing sales, which is why they're focusing almost entirely on Superman and Batman now. But you know what's funny? A while ago someone showed me the sales numbers, and the Wonder Woman actually had the fourth best sales out of the entire recent DC Animated DVD series! Behind Superman: Doomsday, Batman: Under the Red Hood, and Superman/Batman: Public Enemies. WW beat everything else, including several Superman, Batman, and Justice League titles. Yet those other titles are still getting movies. Seems like a double standard to me.


And what kills me the most about is that the Wonder Woman was not one of if not the best animated movie that DC Animated has produced since Batman: Mask of the Phantasm.

I agree. For an ~80 minute movie, it managed to nail a lot of the key ideas about WW that so many people just don't get. And it did that while telling an original story full of surprises, instead of being another adaptation constrained by a previous comic, but lacking the time to cover everything from its source material. The WW movie really felt like the start of something great, and worthy of sequels.

[dupersuper]

And what kills me the most about is that the Wonder Woman was not one of if not the best animated movie that DC Animated has produced since Batman: Mask of the Phantasm.


I agree.

I think you 2 might be biased. It was good, but I'd hardly say it was better than New Frontier, Return of the Joker, JL: Earth 2, All Star Superman, Red Hood...