NBA 2011-12 Season Thread

[PiratesPensSteelers]

It's the season that almost wasn't. I'm very happy we can now talk about basketball and not revenue. Let's get the predictions going and as always let the Lebron hate run wild and free.

[Aubergine~!]

Final details are still being worked out, so this isn't 100% certain yet...

Anyways, it's early days but who does everyone have winning the championship?

[PiratesPensSteelers]

Well, I hate to say it but the easy answer for me is Miami depending on what they do with their bench. I loved Dallas but I can't see them playing that well again this year.

I wonder if a 60 odd game season is short enough that it will still lead to weird outcomes like it did with 50 game season.

[jesse_custer]

I see Miami winning it this year, though it will be a challenge.

[jessecuster3]

I see Miami winning it this year, though it will be a challenge.

The Bulls are still a 2 Guard away from the Promised Land.

[Anthony]

I'll wait for the free agency period to be over before making my prediction. There may be a lot of turnover and movement so while Miami's core may remain the same, someone's roster may get a huge boost and possibly cut their road to the championship short. Still even money's on Miami as it stands right now.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

The Bulls are still a 2 Guard away from the Promised Land.

Yeah, a consistent shooter who can play big minutes at that position will go a long way.

[Cavemold]

Pendening on off season moves i have the lakers going all the way. Let's hope pau gausoft has woken up

[jesse_custer]

The Lakers have a shitty coach, so they're not even going to make the Finals.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

The Lakers have a shitty coach, so they're not even going to make the Finals.

Geesh, it has been a long off-season. I had to dig into the recesses of my brain to remember who they hired. Mike Brown for anyone else with NBA transaction rust.

[Cavemold]

The Lakers have a shitty coach, so they're not even going to make the Finals.

I dont know about that.. The cavs played soild D under him and he's going toughen up the lakers I think. Well see..Kobe should be healthy for once . A Kobe healthy will do leaps and bounds . We still need a PG....

[PiratesPensSteelers]

I dont know about that.. The cavs played soild D under him and he's going toughen up the lakers I think. Well see..Kobe should be healthy for once . A Kobe healthy will do leaps and bounds . We still need a PG....

The fact that he's (Kobe) had a long off-season and the season is shortened really might do wonders for the Lakers title hopes. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

[jesse_custer]

The Lakers had trouble with the Hornets last season with Phil Jackson. I don't see them having much luck against the Grizzlies, Mavericks, or Thunder with Brown this season.

[Anthony]

I dont know about that.. The cavs played soild D under him and he's going toughen up the lakers I think. Well see..Kobe should be healthy for once . A Kobe healthy will do leaps and bounds . We still need a PG....

The problem is the Cavs' O was stagnant. Give the ball the James and let him do something with it....:confused:

[kalorama]

The problem is the Cavs' O was stagnant. Give the ball the James and let him do something with it....:confused:

Other than Lebron, the Cavs didn't have anyone who could create offense, either for himself or anyone else. Brown put the ball in James' hands because he was the only one with any real chance of doing anything with it.

Brown may not be a coach for the ages, but he deserves more credit than he gets. Getting guys to buy in and play consistently hard on defense is real accomplishment for a coach, esp. when they're getting limited opportunities offensively.

[Sub-Zero MKA]

Regardless of off-season moves, I'm picking the Suns like I do every year. They're going to get it right eventually...

[Cavemold]

The fact that he's (Kobe) had a long off-season and the season is shortened really might do wonders for the Lakers title hopes. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

Yea I think the last year Kobe was fully healthy was 07 when he won the MVP.

[Cavemold]

The Lakers had trouble with the Hornets last season with Phil Jackson. I don't see them having much luck against the Grizzlies, Mavericks, or Thunder with Brown this season. well last year was more of mental collapse and fisher be utterly worthless piled on with pau gasoft...... We did draft a guard from michigan who should get some time.

[kalorama]

well last year was more of mental collapse and fisher be utterly worthless piled on with pau gasoft...... We did draft a guard from michigan who should get some time.

Well, Fisher and Gasol are still there, and a rookie 2nd round draft pick isn't likely to have much of an impact on a vet-laden team like the Lakers, so unless Brown turns out to be a real game changer as coach, it's hard to see how they'll be a much different team than they were last season.

[Adset]

i haven't even thought about the nba in months and months. my general thoughts as last year ended would be as follows:

miami will win the 2012 title.

i'm shocked doc rivers chose to coach the sinking ship that is the boston celtics, instead of following duke around the country this year to watch his son.

agreed on chicago; they're built for the regular season.

i don't know what to make of dallas. if kidd doesn't have the best 2-month shooting performance of his life i'm not sure they even get past portland in the first round. i know they're a different team with tyson chandler than they were without him, but the west is, as always, deep and loaded. okc and the lakers are still there. memphis, too.

san antonio goes from the #1 seed in the west to the outside looking in for the playoffs.

denver will be insanely fun to watch in the next year or so before andre miller starts to break down.

[Huthaifa]

With the shortened season, do you risk making a big trade? I think you do.

I dont see the Heat winning it. Poor bench and Lebron is still not a post up player. The Mavs are my favs for for it. A ton of depth and that championship swagger could go a long way.

I think we are being a little hard on Mike Brown and giving Jackson way too much credit. A heatlthy Kobe and quality play at the point gurad position should make the team a contender.

[jesse_custer]

I dont see the Heat winning it. Poor bench and Lebron is still not a post up player. The Mavs are my favs for for it. A ton of depth and that championship swagger could go a long way.

I think we are being a little hard on Mike Brown and giving Jackson way too much credit. A heatlthy Kobe and quality play at the point gurad position should make the team a contender.

Lebron became a very good shooter last season. I wouldn't be surprised to see even more improvement this year. The Mavericks, I'm afraid, are done. Cinderella stories only happen once. The youth and talent of other teams in the West are going to give them trouble.

You can never give Jackson too much credit. It's kinda silly that it's somewhat common to hear doubts about his impact. He is the greatest NBA coach of all time. The numbers and his management show that.

Finally, you can just listen to Brown and tell that he doesn't know what he's talking about.

[Adset]

i didn't realize chandler resigning with dallas was unlikely. if that comes to pass, i definitely don't think dallas is capable of winning it all again, nor reaching the wcf.

[Cavemold]

Let's see how mike does. I'll give him a shot .

[kalorama]

i didn't realize chandler resigning with dallas was unlikely.

Who says it's unlikely?

[Kylun123]

Let's. Go. Heat.

Also, I think the situation with the players who signed contracts to play in China is funny and/or interesting.

[Adset]

Who says it's unlikely?

tyson chandler.

[kalorama]

tyson chandler.

When and where did he say that? I know he was quoted a couple of weeks ago as saying that he thought what the owners were asking for in the CBA might prohibit the Mavs financially from re-signing him but (A) That was a couple weeks ago, before there was an actual deal in place (B) Cuban has proven to be more willing than almost anybody to spend to win (C) Chandler never said anything (that I'm aware of) to suggest he didn't want to come back.

Has he said something more recently to suggest he doesn't want to return? Because that's really the only perspective from which he can speak. As long as he wants to be there and Dallas wants him back (and I think we can all agree that they do) then the odds of his return would seem to be dependent on Cuban being willing to spend the money. Based on that, the odds of his return would seem to tilt towards pretty good.

[Aubergine~!]

I reckon the Mavs amnesty Haywood and use some of those cap savings to make a run at Chandler. Don't think they'll keep the likes of Barea though.


The fact that he's (Kobe) had a long off-season and the season is shortened really might do wonders for the Lakers title hopes. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

Actually, that theoretically should go in favor of the other veteran teams as well. The Celts, Spurs, and Mavs will be thinking they've got a good shot at a title this season, IMO.

That's assuming the condensed schedule doesn't result in too many back to backs.


Regardless of off-season moves, I'm picking the Suns like I do every year. They're going to get it right eventually...

That used to be my strategy, except with the Jazz.

Doubt there's a point in doing that this season though. Jazz should be a fun team, mind. Very interested in seeing how good Kanter is.

[InSovietRussia]

Actually, that theoretically should go in favor of the other veteran teams as well. The Celts, Spurs, and Mavs will be thinking they've got a good shot at a title this season, IMO.

That's assuming the condensed schedule doesn't result in too many back to backs.

Actually, not only will there be back-to-backs, but games for three days in a row, as well as back-to-back playoff games. The veteran teams are toast; my money's on the Bulls to win it.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216786/NBA_Releases_Breakdown_Of_Accelerated_Schedule

[Adset]

unless there's something about the maverick's roster i'm just not seeing, can cuban offer anything more than the mle? dallas is well over the cap with their returning contracts even if rudy fernandez stays in spain, as has been rumored.

obviously anyone can sign anywhere for any amount if both parties agree to it, but in this instance it would appear it has more to do with chandler willing to sacrifice money in order to stay in dallas. then again, i couldn't begin to speak on any potential bird rights or anything within the new cba that would allow dallas to get flexible.

[KnockBlock]

Lockout ended and the season is back. But I don't know if that gets me excited again. As a matter of fact I've honestly grown out of the NBA.


My team the Portland Trailblazers. To think that just a few years ago they were a young team with so much talent, potential, and promise. The team that could of been but wasn't. Something that could of been but never was. It's sad really.

[Aubergine~!]

Actually, not only will there be back-to-backs, but games for three days in a row, as well as back-to-back playoff games. The veteran teams are toast; my money's on the Bulls to win it.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216786/NBA_Releases_Breakdown_Of_Accelerated_Schedule

Ouch.

Yeah, those old knees are toast. Probably be the Heat to win it all.

Also, while I'm here, read a good article on SI by the excellent Zach Lowe about the amnesty clause (http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/11/28/revised-amnesty-clause-raises-questions/?sct=hp_t2_a16&eref=sihp) (though not all details have been released). Interesting bits:


The league has tried to fix that last issue by creating a waiver process for players cut via amnesty, according to the details of the league’s proposal. The net result is that teams under the cap will have the first shot at any amnesty victims, preventing those players from flocking to contenders over the cap (the Lakers, Mavericks, Celtics, Spurs, Magic, Bulls and even the Grizzlies). Here’s a slightly simplified version of how it will work:

Say the Trail Blazers use their amnesty provision on Brandon Roy, who is set to make $15 million this season and $69 million over the four years left on his contract. Releasing Roy would not take the Blazers under the cap — a reason they might wait — but it would take them under the dollar-for-dollar luxury-tax line.

*snip*

Roy would be placed into a hybrid waiver market open only to teams under the salary cap. Those teams would then submit bids detailing how much of Roy’s $15 million salary they’d like to pay. The highest bidder gets him; Roy has no choice in the matter. The winning team will pay only the money it offered in its bid, with Portland paying the rest. So, if the Hornets, desperate for a shooting guard and able to get under the cap if they lose David West, bid $4 million for Roy and win, the Blazers would be on the hook for the remaining $11 million.

Recommend checking out the full article, as I've left a lot out of that.

[kalorama]

You "snipped" the most interesting part:


When we first contemplated amnesty, we thought Roy would then be a free agent, able to sign with any team. Fans of contending teams salivated over picking up quality veterans on minimum salaries — cheap contracts they’d be willing to take, since their old team would still be paying their full salary.

But this is not what will happen. Instead, Roy would be placed into a hybrid waiver market open only to teams under the salary cap. Those teams would then submit bids detailing how much of Roy’s $15 million salary they’d like to pay. The highest bidder gets him; Roy has no choice in the matter. The winning team will pay only the money it offered in its bid, with Portland paying the rest. So, if the Hornets, desperate for a shooting guard and able to get under the cap if they lose David West, bid $4 million for Roy and win, the Blazers would be on the hook for the remaining $11 million.

So the new CBA could conceivably result in players being conscripted to bad teams they want nothing to do with, just like trades? Interesting.

[jesse_custer]

Boston trying to trade Rondo. (http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/7296934/sources-boston-celtics-deal-rajon-rondo-land-chris-paul)

You know, I think it's safe to say Danny Ainge is either an idiot or someone who hates his own team.

[Tadhg]

Boston trying to trade Rondo. (http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/7296934/sources-boston-celtics-deal-rajon-rondo-land-chris-paul)

You know, I think it's safe to say Danny Ainge is either an idiot or someone who hates his own team.

I do not think it is safe to say that.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

If he gets a healthy Chris Paul, why wouldn't you take that deal?

[jesse_custer]

No. Chris Paul is not a good defensive player and thus would not be a good fit for the team.

We already saw what happened when they got rid of Perkins. The Celtics are a close-knit bunch.

So yeah, I think it is safe to say what I said.

[Vic Vega]

Boston trying to trade Rondo. (http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/7296934/sources-boston-celtics-deal-rajon-rondo-land-chris-paul)

You know, I think it's safe to say Danny Ainge is either an idiot or someone who hates his own team.

Rondo isn't the Celtics' problem.

Unless CP3 is going to bring the Fountain Of Youth with him, I don't see how he'll help all that much.

He's only a slight upgrade over Rondo when healthy.

Repeat: that is WHEN HEALTHY.

I can only imagine the fan backlash if this were actually to happen.:eek:

Frist Perk, then Rondo?

I could really see Celtics fans buring thier season tickets.

[jesse_custer]

That's the thing, healthy or not, he wouldn't be an upgrade.

But excellent defense is undervalued these days.

[Kylun123]

Rondo isn't the Celtics' problem.

No, but Boston's Big 3 are on the way out the door.

Are the Celtics better off rebuilding around Rondo or rebuilding around Chris Paul*?

*Haven't seen the rumors but assuming Paul was the piece Rondo would be traded for based on others comments above.

[Kylun123]

Recommend checking out the full article, as I've left a lot out of that.

So would teams that are under the cap and able to bid be able to bid any amount of his contract, even if it takes them above the salary cap (like let's say the full 15mil).

Let's say Team Contender is below the salary cap by just a couple million and they bid the full $15mil, do they get him over Team Non-Contender with lots of room under the cap?
Also, who wins when they both bid the same amount? Presumably the team lower in the standings as typically works in waiver claims?

[Cavemold]

If he gets a healthy Chris Paul, why wouldn't you take that deal?


Boston trying to trade Rondo. (http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/7296934/sources-boston-celtics-deal-rajon-rondo-land-chris-paul)

You know, I think it's safe to say Danny Ainge is either an idiot or someone who hates his own team.

Well I think they need more offensive power and rondo can't shoot a jumper safe his life. Pierce is getting over the hill an kg may be done aswell

[Super Samurai]

As someone said earlier, the schedule is gonna be tough for the veteran teams. I'm also thinking Bulls make it to the finals to face the Thunder, which would be an awesome series.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

That's the thing, healthy or not, he wouldn't be an upgrade.

But excellent defense is undervalued these days.

You take a hit on defense, but Paul scores and even though they have the Big 3, they are getting old as hell and not scoring like they used to. They need to get that from somewhere and I don't see Rondo bringing that.

[Cavemold]

Rondo isn't the Celtics' problem.

Unless CP3 is going to bring the Fountain Of Youth with him, I don't see how he'll help all that much.

He's only a slight upgrade over Rondo when healthy.

Repeat: that is WHEN HEALTHY.

I can only imagine the fan backlash if this were actually to happen.:eek:

Frist Perk, then Rondo?

I could really see Celtics fans buring thier season tickets. a slight upgrade!??? You mean a 25 ppg upgrade . Chris Paul can play defense and beat the lakers in a playoff game practically.

[jesse_custer]

As someone said earlier, the schedule is gonna be tough for the veteran teams. I'm also thinking Bulls make it to the finals to face the Thunder, which would be an awesome series.

I think the Thunder could make it, but I'm not so sure about the Bulls.

With the Heat in their way, I'm thinking the Bulls might have to wait a bit for a championship shot.

[Super Samurai]

For Boston, IMO Chris Paul would give them a significant upgrade on the offense, enough so that it would more than compensate for the decrease in the defense lost. Now this applies only when he is healthy.

Anyways, being a New Yorker I hope this trade doesn't happen :tongue:

Although I would much prefer Dwight Howard because I'm pretty sure he's not going to stay in Orlando.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

For Boston, IMO Chris Paul would give them a significant upgrade on the offense, enough so that it would more than compensate for the decrease in the defense lost. Now this applies only when he is healthy.

Anyways, being a New Yorker I hope this trade doesn't happen :tongue:

Although I would much prefer Dwight Howard because I'm pretty sure he's not going to stay in Orlando.

The Nets are putting an offer together for Howard so you might get him in NY....just not as a Knick.

[Super Samurai]

I think the Thunder could make it, but I'm not so sure about the Bulls.

With the Heat in their way, I'm thinking the Bulls might have to wait a bit for a championship shot.

Oh I'm not discounting the Heat, I have it close between Chicago and Miami. I just think in a shortened season youth can give the bulls that slight edge, plus I'm wary of Dwayne Wade's health for Miami.

[Kylun123]

With the Heat in their way, I'm thinking the Bulls might have to wait a bit for a championship shot.

Some sports-talk out of Miami questions if they can afford to keep Mike Miller, and if they let him go and he lands in Chicago how does that effect the series.

Because last year it seemed all Chicago was missing was someone who could hit open 3's . . .

[Super Samurai]

The Nets are putting an offer together for Howard so you might get him in NY....just not as a Knick.

Oh I've heard the trade talk. He'll probably end up either on the Knicks, Nets, or even the Lakers. Obviously I'd hope he ends up in the blue and orange.

[jesse_custer]

The Rondo-for-Paul trade likely ain't happening (http://espn.go.com/boston/nba/story/_/id/7297944/source-new-orleans-hornets-chris-paul-sign-boston-celtics-dealt), so I guess the debate was moot from the beginning.

[jesse_custer]

Because last year it seemed all Chicago was missing was someone who could hit open 3's . . .

In general, you're right.

But I don't know if Rose is good enough to take advantage of the Heat's defense in a seven-game series.

[JDogindy]

Who's going to be the Shawn Kemp of this season?

I think it might be Paul Pierce.

Anyway, the Pacers are pretty much prime for a playoff spot as they look like the best team in the Central that isn't the Bulls. They still lack a quality power forward, but I believe things are looking more than promosing this year with Vogel getting his first full season.

[kalorama]

Paul might have been better for the current aging Celtics cast in the short-term, but given where they're at, building for the short-term is a terrible idea.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

Paul might have been better for the current aging Celtics cast in the short-term, but given where they're at, building for the short-term is a terrible idea.

He's 26 years old. Rondo is 25. Short or long term plans will work with either.

[Kylun123]

Paul might have been better for the current aging Celtics cast in the short-term, but given where they're at, building for the short-term is a terrible idea.

Paul is only 1-year older than Rondo.

Do you think it's better to build a team from scratch around Rondo vs. Paul? Or do you think since they're going to need re-build anyway no point in investing in a big name like Paul?

EDIT: If anything I'd think the Celts would try to replicate their success by starting with Paul, and then figuring out in the next couple years how to bring on another Big 2.

[jesse_custer]

Given that Paul doesn't want to go to Boston, the debate is pointless, but I'll take championship experience and tenacious defense over flashy offense every time.

[Cavemold]

Dwight will be in la by next year with the lakers or clippers... Also Derrick rose has improved each year .Well see how much better he's gotten. They still need a 2 guard. On the back to back to back. I think the vet teams will be ok. They've had enough away time.Well see. On Boston , I think they will struggle this year.

[Cavemold]

Given that Paul doesn't want to go to Boston, the debate is pointless, but I'll take championship experience and tenacious defense over flashy offense every time.

Well we know chris Paul can share the ball . We know he can score . I would take cp3 over rondo 7 days a week.

[Libaax]

I see Miami winning it this year, though it will be a challenge.

Im rooting for everybody who can beat Miami in the playoffs.

Somehow that team annoy. Despite Wade is my fav player after KG.

[jesse_custer]

Well we know chris Paul can share the ball .

Correct, but I think Rondo has the edge on assists.

[Cavemold]

Correct, but I think Rondo has the edge on assists.

Maybe by a tad. Rondo no jumpshot makes up for it though.

[kalorama]

Correct, but I think Rondo has the edge on assists.

He did last season, but that was the first/only time he dished more than Paul. And Rondo benefits greatly from the fact that he plays with three HoF-bound scorers. Rondo's a helluva player, but Paul putting up double-digit assists almost every year with the motley collection of talent he's had around him is a more impressive feat, as far as I'm concerned.

[Libaax]

Given that Paul doesn't want to go to Boston, the debate is pointless, but I'll take championship experience and tenacious defense over flashy offense every time.

Plus he isnt better assist PG. He is not an upgrade imo. He is upgrade only in flashy offense. Rondo has scored alot for Boston in playoffs without his lack of consistent jump shot.

They need fresh versions of KG,Pierce before they need a superstar PG.

They need better defence like they had with fresher KG,Perkins,Rondo.

[Kylun123]

Rondo benefits greatly from the fact that he plays with three HoF-bound scorers.

Agree.

Also, my biggest concern heading into the season is that if the Heat lose less than 10 games we'll never know if they could've matched the Bulls 72 . . .

[jesse_custer]

And Rondo benefits greatly from the fact that he plays with three HoF-bound scorers.

True, but he's been playing with them for a while, increasing his number of assists every year.

[Huthaifa]

The Rondo for Paul is a joke right?I dont blame Ainge for trying.The Celts might as well ride the Rondo train for the rest of the season. This team is toast after that anyway.If Ainge is in rebuilding mode, then he should trade the older guys first.KG,Allen, and Pierce could put a lot of team over the hump.

[jesse_custer]

If Ainge is in rebuilding mode, then he should trade the older guys first.KG,Allen, and Pierce could put a lot of team over the hump.

Honestly, I didn't even think about this, but this sounds like a much smarter idea.

The key will be keeping the defense intact with the new players.

[kalorama]

They need fresh versions of KG,Pierce before they need a superstar PG.

If they're building for the future, sure. But if they're making another run at a title this season before the wheels fall off the Big 3, then I could maybe see the value of Paul for Rondo. Personally, I think their window is closed, but between Dallas' surprise win and the shortened season, I can see why Ainge might think he has a sliver of opportunity.

[Cavemold]

Honestly, I didn't even think about this, but this sounds like a much smarter idea.

The key will be keeping the defense intact with the new players.

Well doc rivers is still thier , he will be able coach team defense to the new players.

[kalorama]

True, but he's been playing with them for a while, increasing his number of assists every year.

Which indicates his improvement as a player, but doesn't really negate the hugely beneficial impact of their presence with regards to his ability to rack up assists.

[kalorama]

Well doc rivers is still thier , he will be able coach team defense to the new players.

He'll be able to coach it, but the question is, will they be able to execute it? Garnett is unquestionably the linchpin of their defensive success. Without him (or another vet player like him in his spot) I don't see much chance of the Celtics maintaining anything close to the same level of defensive intensity, at least not in the near-term.

[jesse_custer]

He'll be able to coach it, but the question is, will they be able to execute it?

That is the important question. Rivers is a great coach, but he's gotta have something to work with.

[Libaax]

If they're building for the future, sure. But if they're making another run at a title this season before the wheels fall off the Big 3, then I could maybe see the value of Paul for Rondo. Personally, I think their window is closed, but between Dallas' surprise win and the shortened season, I can see why Ainge might think he has a sliver of opportunity.

Allen is the one still playing at high level .

Dallas won because of their bench depth that helped with Barrea and co. Boston doesnt have heroic bench players like Dallas. That small forward/SG they got from Thunders or Jason Terry and Barrea come on ;)

CP3 and Rondo is too near in their overall ability to do Boston any good in long term even if they could get Paul.

Boston have no choice to build a new team. You cant dump the best assist player of last season who is a great rebounder,defender and who is younger than Paul. They need him most.

[kalorama]

Allen is the one still playing at high level .

He's also 36 years old and (if I'm not mistaken) in the last year of his contract.


Dallas won because of their bench depth that helped with Barrea and co. Boston doesnt have heroic bench players like Dallas. That small forward/SG they got from Thunders or Jason Terry and Barrea come on ;)

Well, as I didn't make anything resembling an actual comparison between Dallas and Boston's rosters, I'm not sure what your point is. Dallas won for a lot of reasons, but mostly they won because of Dirk Nowitzki.


CP3 and Rondo is too near in their overall ability to do Boston any good in long term even if they could get Paul.

Boston have no choice to build a new team. You cant dump the best assist player of last season who is a great rebounder,defender and who is younger than Paul. They need him most.

Rondo is a great player, but Boston's offense too often stalls, and with Garnett aging and Perkins gone, there's been defensive slippage. They need to shore at least one of them up. Paul is more adept at creating easy offensive opportunities than Rondo is. Not saying they should do it, but there are definite pluses to the idea, if the goal is to make a last run at a title.

[Libaax]

It sounded like you compared Dallas old team winning as something that might help Boston older players in the near future. Dallas are much more balanced team. Dirk was the special player but they had many heroic role players, scorers like Terry,Barrea.

I agree their offence stalls but how does it help removing their only great playermaker ? Pierce going one and one will help them when he becomes only slower and older ?

Ray Allen is old but he is very fit,great shooter. They need finder younger scorers,defenders and dump their one of the best PGs in NBA.

[Vic Vega]

For Boston, IMO Chris Paul would give them a significant upgrade on the offense, enough so that it would more than compensate for the decrease in the defense lost. Now this applies only when he is healthy.

Anyways, being a New Yorker I hope this trade doesn't happen :tongue:

Although I would much prefer Dwight Howard because I'm pretty sure he's not going to stay in Orlando.

I'm a New Yorker also and I actually wouldn't mind it (Paul for Rondo), if it means I get Dwight Howard (who we need more than a CP3) or D-Will (who is nearly as good as CP3 is and can stay out of the damn hospital).

[PiratesPensSteelers]

I keep seeing references to Chris Paul being fragile. He hasn't missed that much time over his career. At least not to the extent where it looks like he has some sort of lingering health issue that creeps up over and over again.

He missed 18 games one year and almost half a year 2 seasons ago. Other than he's been on the court practically every night.

[kalorama]

It sounded like you compared Dallas old team winning as something that might help Boston older players in the near future.

I can't see how in the world Dallas winning a title in any way "helps" Boston do anything. What I said was that it might inspire confidence in Ainge that the Celtics could make one last run.


Dallas are much more balanced team. Dirk was the special player but they had many heroic role players, scorers like Terry,Barrea.

I didn't see a whole lot of "heroism" from either of those two. Both had some big games in the playoffs, but both also had some clunkers. And much of their production in the good games came as a result of playing off the defensive attention paid Nowitzki. Pretty much everything the Mavs do offensively flows from Nowitzki's presence on the floor.


I agree their offence stalls but how does it help removing their only great playermaker ?

By replacing him with an even greater one in Chris Paul. That is what we're talking about here, remember? The pros and cons of a Paul/Rondo swap.

[Huthaifa]

Honestly, I didn't even think about this, but this sounds like a much smarter idea.

The key will be keeping the defense intact with the new players.

How valuable would Ray Allen be to the Bulls? How valuable would KG be to Oklahoma or even Dallas?

[Cavemold]

How valuable would Ray Allen be to the Bulls? How valuable would KG be to Oklahoma or even Dallas?

The bulls would love to have ray on the team. They should give a 1st rounder and more for him, They would be championship favorites.

[kalorama]

How valuable would Ray Allen be to the Bulls? How valuable would KG be to Oklahoma or even Dallas?


The Bulls are a young team that really needs to add pieces to their core that are going to grow around Rose, not aging vets who are closer to the end than the beginning. I also think the Bulls really need someone at SG who can handle the ball and create some offense, as opposed to adding yet another player who's pretty much dependent on Rose to set him up (all the same reasons why I think Rip Hamilton would be a bad fit in Chi, as much as I want him gone from my Pistons). Unless he comes off the bench (which I can't see), Garnett would only makes sense in Dallas if they lose Tyson Chandler. But even then, it's an iffy proposition, because they'd have to start him at C, which means he'd take a lot of pounding that his body may not be able to hold up to over the whole season. Similar issues in Oklahoma. They could start him over Ibaka at C, but I'm not sure that's the best use for him.

[Tadhg]

The bulls would love to have ray on the team. They should give a 1st rounder and more for him, They would be championship favorites.

The bulls don't have the pieces to trade for Ray.

[Cavemold]

The bulls don't have the pieces to trade for Ray.

Sue they do. They can trade picks and a few players with cash.

[Cavemold]

The Bulls are a young team that really needs to add pieces to their core that are going to grow around Rose, not aging vets who are closer to the end than the beginning. I also think the Bulls really need someone at SG who can handle the ball and create some offense, as opposed to adding yet another player who's pretty much dependent on Rose to set him up (all the same reasons why I think Rip Hamilton would be a bad fit in Chi, as much as I want him gone from my Pistons). Unless he comes off the bench (which I can't see), Garnett would only makes sense in Dallas if they lose Tyson Chandler. But even then, it's an iffy proposition, because they'd have to start him at C, which means he'd take a lot of pounding that his body may not be able to hold up to over the whole season. Similar issues in Oklahoma. They could start him over Ibaka at C, but I'm not sure that's the best use for him.

For a one year deal yea they could use him to win a ring.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

If I'm the Bulls, I'm highly considering Jason Richardson if FA is the venue you're going to use to get a SG.

[kalorama]

For a one year deal yea they could use him to win a ring.

Well, that presumes he'd put them over the op. Clearly, I'm not presuming that.

[Tadhg]

Sue they do. They can trade picks and a few players with cash.

Not really. Who would they be willing to trade that Boston would remotely want?

[kalorama]

If I'm the Bulls, I'm highly considering Jason Richardson if FA is the venue you're going to use to get a SG.

I'd think twice about chasing overpaid pseudo-big names (that's how they ended up with Boozer). The guy I think they should zero in on is Arron Afflalo.

[Cavemold]

Not really. Who would they be willing to trade that Boston would remotely want?

trade ronnie brewer and kyle korver and draft picks for this year and next and boston couldnt refuse.

[Cavemold]

I'd think twice about chasing overpaid pseudo-big names (that's how they ended up with Boozer). The guy I think they should zero in on is Arron Afflalo.

are they under the cap? Hes pretty good i think denver will give him his pay day.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

I'd think twice about chasing overpaid pseudo-big names (that's how they ended up with Boozer). The guy I think they should zero in on is Arron Afflalo.

He's not my favorite guy either, but at the SG position there isn't a whole lot going on in FA this year.

[Tadhg]

trade ronnie brewer and kyle korver and draft picks for this year and next and boston couldnt refuse.

They really could and most likely would refuse that. The Bulls aren't going to have particularly high draft picks with their success and Brewer and Korver would be an additional 12 million in salary beyond what they're paying Ray since they each have an extra year compared to him. So yeah, that's not really a tempting trade.

[Huthaifa]

The Bulls are a young team that really needs to add pieces to their core that are going to grow around Rose, not aging vets who are closer to the end than the beginning. I also think the Bulls really need someone at SG who can handle the ball and create some offense, as opposed to adding yet another player who's pretty much dependent on Rose to set him up (all the same reasons why I think Rip Hamilton would be a bad fit in Chi, as much as I want him gone from my Pistons). Unless he comes off the bench (which I can't see), Garnett would only makes sense in Dallas if they lose Tyson Chandler. But even then, it's an iffy proposition, because they'd have to start him at C, which means he'd take a lot of pounding that his body may not be able to hold up to over the whole season. Similar issues in Oklahoma. They could start him over Ibaka at C, but I'm not sure that's the best use for him.

I just did this trade on ESPN TRADE MACHINE.

BOSTON GETS:WESTBROOK,PERKINS,AND BOOZER
CHICAGO GETS:RAY ALLEN
OKC GET: RONDO & JEFF GREEN.

Chicago get rid of Boozer's contract and they pick up a reliable outside shooter. OKC gets a pg who is more compatible to Durant.Boston gets back the toughness they lost with Perkins, a serviceable big man in Boozer, and high scoring point guard that would give Dwayne Wade fits.

[Tadhg]

I just did this trade on ESPN TRADE MACHINE.

BOSTON GETS:WESTBROOK,PERKINS,AND BOOZER
CHICAGO GETS:RAY ALLEN
OKC GET: RONDO & JEFF GREEN.

Chicago get rid of Boozer's contract and they pick up a reliable outside shooter. OKC gets a pg who is more compatible to Durant.Boston gets back the toughness they lost with Perkins, a serviceable big man in Boozer, and high scoring point guard that would give Dwayne Wade fits.

According to rumors, OKC already rejected a trade of Rondo and Green for Westbrook and Perk.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

I wouldn't mind the Bulls signing Grant Hill. I think he'd fit in nice with them.

[Cavemold]

I wouldn't mind the Bulls signing Grant Hill. I think he'd fit in nice with them.

I think hes done ... Also is Shane battie or jj reddick FA?????

[kalorama]

I think hes done ... Also is Shane battie or jj reddick FA?????

Considering that he basically went about 5 years in his prime w/o playing, I think Hill's got some more tread left on his tires. But I don't see him being the answer to the Bulls' prayers either way.

[kalorama]

I just did this trade on ESPN TRADE MACHINE.

BOSTON GETS:WESTBROOK,PERKINS,AND BOOZER
CHICAGO GETS:RAY ALLEN
OKC GET: RONDO & JEFF GREEN.

Chicago get rid of Boozer's contract and they pick up a reliable outside shooter. OKC gets a pg who is more compatible to Durant.Boston gets back the toughness they lost with Perkins, a serviceable big man in Boozer, and high scoring point guard that would give Dwayne Wade fits.

That may work money-wise, but I don't think it's very viable otherwise.

[kalorama]

He's not my favorite guy either, but at the SG position there isn't a whole lot going on in FA this year.

Spending 1st tier money on a 2nd or 3rd tier FA just so you can look to the fans like you're doing something is a bad strategy. (The Bulls should know that better than most teams. Remember Ron Mercer?) If there's no one on the market who will really fill their needs, they should keep the money in their pockets

[Tadhg]

I'd tender an offer to Arron Afflalo if I were Paxson though I doubt it'd come to fruition.

[Super Samurai]

I'm a New Yorker also and I actually wouldn't mind it (Paul for Rondo), if it means I get Dwight Howard (who we need more than a CP3) or D-Will (who is nearly as good as CP3 is and can stay out of the damn hospital).

Oh for sure, between Paul or Howard, I would definitely choose the big man. But it seems more likely the Knicks end up with Paul.

As for the bulls, there are a few options, some earlier mentioned Richardson, however I think Jamal Crawford could be a good fit(for the right price), plus he's a decent ball handler.

[Aubergine~!]

If I'm the Bulls, I'm highly considering Jason Richardson if FA is the venue you're going to use to get a SG.

Wouldn't be a bad deal if it's only for a year or two, though I'm not sure how well he fits into the Bulls.

The dream for Chicago would be Brandon Roy getting amnestied (which reportedly is likely, as Paul Allen wants him out for some reason), Chicago somehow winning the bidding, and Roy being healthy for the playoffs.

Not likely, but hey, that'd make them title favorites IMO.

Edit: Also, I think Boozer has a big comeback year this season. Call it a hunch.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

Spending 1st tier money on a 2nd or 3rd tier FA just so you can look to the fans like you're doing something is a bad strategy. (The Bulls should know that better than most teams. Remember Ron Mercer?) If there's no one on the market who will really fill their needs, they should keep the money in their pockets

I wouldn't offer him first tier money. Offer him what you can afford and the chance to play for a winner. Plug him in at SG and you're getting a healthy scorer/shooter, keep Bogans for the defense in tight games and tell Korver to go chew on his mouthpiece elsewhere.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

As for the bulls, there are a few options, some earlier mentioned Richardson, however I think Jamal Crawford could be a good fit(for the right price), plus he's a decent ball handler.

Crawford is too much of a volume shooter for the Bulls. He wouldn't work with Rose who dominates the ball a lot of the time. They need someone who can score on his own, but who can score within the flow of the offense.

[kalorama]

I wouldn't offer him first tier money. Offer him what you can afford and the chance to play for a winner. Plug him in at SG and you're getting a healthy scorer/shooter, keep Bogans for the defense in tight games and tell Korver to go chew on his mouthpiece elsewhere.

I guess it depends on what you consider first-tier money. But regardless, a guy with a career 18 ppg scoring average isn't gonna be had for cheap. But he's 30 years old and, despite the gaudy numbers, has never really had great on-court impact. Signing him to a multiyear deal is a big risk, esp. coming on the heels of signing Boozer, a similar big-number player/never really been a difference maker kind of player who didn't exactly dazzle in his Bulls debut.

[Tadhg]

Anyone know what the cap numbers are going to look like for this season? I wouldn't be surprised if Richardson would have to take a 50% paycut to goto the Bulls.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

Anyone know what the cap numbers are going to look like for this season? I wouldn't be surprised if Richardson would have to take a 50% paycut to goto the Bulls.

That's what I read. He'd have to take the mid-level exception or thereabouts. The fact that Rose can get a 30% pay increase instead of the expected 25% in the previous CBA it really is tightening things up for them.

[jessecuster3]

ESPN Chicago did a nice piece on FAs the Bulls could get. (http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/bulls/post/_/id/5935/will-bulls-find-answer-at-shooting-guard) Also, why they won't get them.

[kalorama]

ESPN Chicago did a nice piece on FAs the Bulls could get. (http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/bulls/post/_/id/5935/will-bulls-find-answer-at-shooting-guard) Also, why they won't get them.

That's a pretty good analysis. Basically, the guys they can afford aren't likely to really help them that much. They guys most likely to help them are probably out of their price range.

[Anthony]

Chris Paul is requesting a trade to NY (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ys-chris_paul_hornets_knicks_nba_trade_120111)

Man, I was not expecting that one.

[EZMOHR]

Chris Paul is requesting a trade to NY (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ys-chris_paul_hornets_knicks_nba_trade_120111)

Man, I was not expecting that one.

Chris Paul realizes his season and a half of being a the best PG in the NBA is over, right?

A guy that seems past his prime at 25 shouldn't be requesting ANYTHING. Especially a guy that hasn't shown he can stay healthy in the last two full seasons.

[kalorama]

Chris Paul is requesting a trade to NY (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ys-chris_paul_hornets_knicks_nba_trade_120111)

Man, I was not expecting that one.

Really? The only thing I find surprising about it is that he went public with it. I don't think anyone was really expecting him to re-sign with N.O., all that "my heart is in New Orleans" talk notwithstanding. The Hornets are a sinking ship.

[Anthony]

Really? The only thing I find surprising about it is that he went public with it. I don't think anyone was really expecting him to re-sign with N.O., all that "my heart is in New Orleans" talk notwithstanding. The Hornets are a sinking ship.

I should have been more clear.

The going public part is what I didn't expect.

[EZMOHR]

I should have been more clear.

The going public part is what I didn't expect.

After that little Carmelo wedding thing last year...suprised he didn't come out sooner.

Hey Chris, you aren't getting traded to them. They've got nothing NO wants right now. Wait your one year of misery, and shut up.

Oh, and as much as I can't stand "the big 3" in Miami....they've still got a LOT more talent between their big 3 than a Knicks Big Three of Carmelo, Micro-Fractured Amare, and CP-3games a month I'll be out.

[kalorama]

After that little Carmelo wedding thing last year...suprised he didn't come out sooner.

Carmelo is exactly why I'm a bit surprised by this. Anthony was pretty widely criticized for being a diva and for the season long circus the "Carmelo Watch created (despite the fact that, at least initially, he repeatedly denied specifically (or at least ducked the question) directly asking for a trade. Coming off the lockout and the image of several hundred rich dudes arguing over how to divide the pennies, this seems like a pretty tone deaf move from a P.R. standpoint.

[EZMOHR]

Carmelo is exactly why I'm a bit surprised by this. Anthony was pretty widely criticized for being a diva and for the season long circus the "Carmelo Watch created (despite the fact that, at least initially, he repeatedly denied specifically (or at least ducked the question) directly asking for a trade. Coming off the lockout and the image of several hundred rich dudes arguing over how to divide the pennies, this seems like a pretty tone deaf move from a P.R. standpoint.

Since when has an NBA star post 1998 been seen as media savvy.

[Adset]

jamal crawford is coming to portland </hunch>

and i'm not at all excited about it.

[kalorama]

Since when has an NBA star post 1998 been seen as media savvy.

Quite a few of them have, actually. Besides, the article gave the impression that it was his agent who put it out there, and it's part of his job to understand how to protect his client's image. (Although it could be that the Hornets are the ones how took it public, in which case it was still a questionable move.)

[EZMOHR]

Quite a few of them have, actually. Besides, the article gave the impression that it was his agent who put it out there, and it's part of his job to understand how to protect his client's image. (Although it could be that the Hornets are the ones how took it public, in which case it was still a questionable move.)

Really, outside of Duncan (who leaves his whining on the court,) give me a superstar that doesn't have a little media tone-deafness to them.

[BYC]

I haven't read too much of the new agreement, but the new agreement seems like the old agreement on the most important topic, which is sign-and-trades are alive and well.

Apparently they are still in there, except the max length is 5 years for your current team, and only 4 years if you are signing as a free agent. WTF? WASN'T THE ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS THE LOCKOUT HAPPENED IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?! OMFG!!! Owners will bitch and complain about 4 years from now and opt out of the agreement, and then we'll have hell again.

Even though I'm on the players side, I think contracts should be for shorter lengths, like 4. The sign and trade almost stops the entire reason for the shorter contracts. That 1 extra year is still free $$$ for players. The revenue sharing much tougher luxury tax will help small cities, but it still doesn't help enough if sign and trades are in the new deal. We'll still get players like Chris Paul wanting to be traded to New York to play with Carmelo and Amare.

I really hope the new system works, because otherwise I think it's another lockout in 4-6 years.

[kalorama]

Really, outside of Duncan (who leaves his whining on the court,) give me a superstar that doesn't have a little media tone-deafness to them.

Well, that's kind of moving the goal posts. There's a difference between having "a little media tone-deafness" and not being media/P.R. savvy at all. Even really smart people say and do incredibly stupid things at times. But generally speaking, there are several NBA players (and pro athletes in general) who grew up in a media culture and are very attuned to it. Shaq was very media savvy. He got away with saying and doing all kinds of stuff that would have gotten others in a tub of hot water, simply because he knew how to milk his "biggest kid in the world" act for all it was worth. That didn't change the fact that he was a vindictive, self-absorbed, jealous ass. Steve Nash, Grant Hill, Amare Stoudemire. Those are just the ones that come immediately to mind. No one is saying they're geniuses, mind you, but they generally know how to play to the crowd.

But, really, after watching someone get pointed and laughed at for walking around with shit on their shoes for 6 months, how smart do you have to be to avoid stepping ankle deep into the same pile?

[kalorama]

And BTW, Duncan is a terrible example of a media/P.R. savvy athlete, given that his career long strategy for dealing with the media was to avoid dealing with them as much as he could and, when he had no choice but to deal with them, to give them the blandest, most one-note responses until they went away. As far as P.R. goes, he pretty much ran from it. He's hands down one of the best players of his generation and one of the best big men to ever play the game, a first ballot, unanimous HoFer, yet you ask most casual fans for their impression of Duncan, 9 times out of 10 "boring" is the word you'll get.


It seems to me that the sort of NBA that would result if they got their way (stars on super-teams with the remaining franchises rendered superfluous) would be far less entertaining and popular.

How so?

[Cavemold]

Chris Paul to new york . Makes a laker fan happy:).

[kalorama]

Simple, if the majority of teams in the league stand no chance of competing, then their fanbases will erode. That's why the NFL is so popular; teams like the Niners and Bengals (to use two examples from this season) can turn their fortunes around fairly quickly. The NBA depends far more on individual talent than any other popular sport, so if the league's superstars all want to play in the same few large markets (as seems to be the case), the teams left out in the cold won't have much of a chance to compete. If you're a fan of one of those teams, why watch?

First, the NBA and the NFL don't operate the same way, so there's really no valid comparison of the two business models.

Second, just like the NBA, there are plenty of NFL teams that were bad for several year stretches up to and beyond a decade, including the Niners (who haven't made the playoffs since 2002) and the Bengals (who went 14 years without making the playoffs before making it only twice in the last 6--and losing in the wildcard game both times); nothing "fairly quick" about either one of them (and given that the Bengals are currently third in their division, in a dogfight for a wildcard slot, and have a very real possibility of missing the playoffs, it's maybe a bit too early to say they've turned anything around).

Third, and most importantly, the reason superstars want to all play together is because it maximizes their chances of winning. If you don't think the owners want that as well, you're very, very wrong. Everyone wants to win and everyone is willing to do whatever they can get away with to do it. The owners just all want them to do it for them and not for the other guy. If the fact that a team in LA or New York is more attractive to players pisses the owners off so much, then maybe they should have considered that before buying a team in Utah or Indiana.

BTW, last I checked, the small market teams in San Antonio had a nice long run, and the ones in Oklahoma and Mem[his had been doing okay for themselves recently.

[Kasper Cole]

First, the NBA and the NFL don't operate the same way, so there's really no valid comparison of the two business models.

Second, just like the NBA, there are plenty of NFL teams that were bad for several year stretches up to and beyond a decade, including the Niners (who haven't made the playoffs since 2002) and the Bengals (who went 14 years without making the playoffs before making it only twice in the last 6--and losing in the wildcard game both times); nothing "fairly quick" about either one of them (and given that the Bengals are currently third in their division, in a dogfight for a wildcard slot, and have a very real possibility of missing the playoffs, it's maybe a bit too early to say they've turned anything around).

Third, and most importantly, the reason superstars want to all play together is because it maximizes their chances of winning. If you don't think the owners want that as well, you're very, very wrong. Everyone wants to win and everyone is willing to do whatever they can get away with to do it. The owners just all want them to do it for them and not for the other guy. If the fact that a team in LA or New York is more attractive to players pisses the owners off so much, then maybe they should have considered that before buying a team in Utah or Indiana.

BTW, last I checked, the small market teams in San Antonio had a nice long run, and the ones in Oklahoma and Mem[his had been doing okay for themselves recently.

The small market vs Big market team stuff is VERY overblown.

As you said San Antonio, OKC, and Memphis have all had good runs recently. The Sacramento Kings, Phoenix Suns, and Indiana Pacers have also had great runs in the past. At the same time The Knicks and Celtics have had problems bringing in top talent until recent years.

It's less about Big Market vs Small Market and more about good GM's vs bad GM's. A lot the GM's in the NBA are HORRIBLE, yet somehow the same guys keep getting jobs over and over again.

[The Once And Forever]

If the fact that a team in LA or New York is more attractive to players pisses the owners off so much, then maybe they should have considered that before buying a team in Utah or Indiana.

Have the Simon's done much bitching about that in the media? Most I hear from them is asking the taxpayers to pay for the stadium and support the malls they have in the jankier parts of town.

Besides, we should have beaten the Bulls anyway, just like back in the 90s. We can fail on our own devices, thankyaverymuch.:tongue:

[Libaax]

I have lost interest in big soccer club tournaments because few teams have all the superstars. Barcelona, Real Madrid dominate club soccer.

I dont want to see Miami and NYC do the same.

I hope team that doesnt have 3-4 allstars wins 2012 Finals.

Its not GM vs GMs, its more money vs less money. I hope NBA salery caps make the playing field even. Lack of salery cap has made soccer club tournaments in europe be so uneven.

[Kasper Cole]

I have lost interest in big soccer club tournaments because few teams have all the superstars. Barcelona, Real Madrid dominate club soccer.

I dont want to see Miami and NYC do the same.

I hope team that doesnt have 3-4 allstars wins 2012 Finals.

Its not GM vs GMs, its more money vs less money. I hope NBA salery caps make the playing field even. Lack of salery cap has made soccer club tournaments in europe be so uneven.

It's not a money vs Money issue. If that was true the Knicks wouldn't of have been such a horrible team for an entire decade. Having more money to spend helps obviously but it means nothing if you don't spend that money properly, even teams that don't spend a lot of money can do well.

San Antonio rarely goes over the cap. OKC is another team built without breaking the bank.

It really does come down to the quality of GM that a team has.

[Libaax]

It's not a money vs Money issue. If that was true the Knicks wouldn't of have been such a horrible team for an entire decade. Having more money to spend helps obviously but it means nothing if you don't spend that money properly, even teams that don't spend a lot of money can do well.

San Antonio rarely goes over the cap. OKC is another team built without breaking the bank.

It really does come down to the quality of GM that a team has.

Yeah of course good GM's can create small market miracles and young teams like Thunders. Stupid GM create bad teams who waste money like NYC in the last decade. Also you dont have to be good GM to lure in Lebron,Bosh to Miami.

If its easy to go over the cap then everyone will follow the example. Look Paul in NYC just because Miami showed 3 allstars can beat most teams.

I think NBA is very even, good balanced right now. I dont want to see every top team in the playoffs being build exactly like Miami. Im just paranoid right now but thats because i have seen it happen in other world popular sports.

Why do you think im NBA fan in Sweden just in recent years ? Watching games 4 clock in the morning. Because Detroit Pistons, Dallas,Spurs has showed team build on team work can win. Thats an utopia for soccer fans.

[Kasper Cole]

Yeah of course good GM's can create small market miracles and young teams like Thunders. Stupid GM create bad teams who waste money like NYC in the last decade. Also you dont have to be good GM to lure in Lebron,Bosh to Miami.

If its easy to go over the cap then everyone will follow the example. Look Paul in NYC just because Miami showed 3 allstars can beat most teams.

I think NBA is very even, good balanced right now. I dont want to see every top team in the playoffs being build exactly like Miami. Im just paranoid right now but thats because i have seen it happen in other world popular sports.

Why do you think im NBA fan in Sweden just in recent years ? Watching games 4 clock in the morning. Because Detroit Pistons, Dallas,Spurs has showed team build on team work can win. Thats an utopia for soccer fans.

Miami didn't lure any players anywhere, that was a case of a group of players deciding where they wanted to play. Plus if you play in Miami you don't have to worry about playing state income tax.

Chris Paul was looking to leave New Orleans BEFORE the big three formed and it had a lot to do with stupid moves the GM at the time was making.

And the Miami situation isn't anything new. We've seen big name stars team up throughout NBA history, that's just how the league is and it's always going to be that way.

And The Spurs had Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobli, and Tony Parker. Those guys were elite players at their position.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

After that little Carmelo wedding thing last year...suprised he didn't come out sooner.

Hey Chris, you aren't getting traded to them. They've got nothing NO wants right now. Wait your one year of misery, and shut up.

Oh, and as much as I can't stand "the big 3" in Miami....they've still got a LOT more talent between their big 3 than a Knicks Big Three of Carmelo, Micro-Fractured Amare, and CP-3games a month I'll be out.

Amare is still good as hell, micro-fracture or not.

And we have to stop with this Chris Paul never plays stuff. He's been in the league 6 years and 4 of them he has played 78+ games a year. Yes, he has had injuries over that time period but to act like he is ALWAYS out is not true.

[Libaax]

Miami didn't lure any players anywhere, that was a case of a group of players deciding where they wanted to play. Plus if you play in Miami you don't have to worry about playing state income tax.

Chris Paul was looking to leave New Orleans BEFORE the big three formed and it had a lot to do with stupid moves the GM at the time was making.

And the Miami situation isn't anything new. We've seen big name stars team up throughout NBA history, that's just how the league is and it's always going to be that way.

And The Spurs had Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobli, and Tony Parker. Those guys were elite players at their position.

Didnt they become elite players after years of being lesser players in Spurs ? They lived on Duncan while waiting for Parker, Manu to become great.

They didnt come from being MVP to Miami and being Allstar like Bosh to Miami. They were made in Spurs.

Of course Mimai thing isnt new but if there is 3-4 other teams are build like Miami at the same time that is new.

[Vic Vega]

Didnt they become elite players after years of being lesser players in Spurs ? They lived on Duncan while waiting for Parker, Manu to become great.

They didnt come from being MVP to Miami and being Allstar like Bosh to Miami. They were made in Spurs.

Of course Mimai thing isnt new but if there is 3-4 other teams are build like Miami at the same time that is new.

The Lakers are a super team, so is Boston.

Nobody wants to wait til the downside of their career like Garnett did to get a chip.

[jesse_custer]

I dont want to see Miami and NYC do the same.

I hope team that doesnt have 3-4 allstars wins 2012 Finals.

First of all, New York is not going to win, even if they get Paul. Their defense is just not good enough.

Second, what's the problem with having three or four all-stars? Can anyone say the Chicago Bulls of the 1990s?

[Libaax]

First of all, New York is not going to win, even if they get Paul. Their defense is just not good enough.

Second, what's the problem with having three or four all-stars? Can anyone say the Chicago Bulls of the 1990s?

No i dont think NYC will win anytime soon. What Miami growth for weak to best east team might mean for the rest of NBA im thinking about.

3-4 Allstars in one team is nothing new but its all the best offensive players in 3-4 teams that is danger. If 3-4 teams have all the best players and 20+ teams have nothing to compete with.

It has happened recently in other world sports. The thing i like about US sports is the cap and the fact you cant have too many best all star players in one team because of the salery cap teams have.

[jesse_custer]

I guess I still don't see how the NBA has gotten worse in this respect. Jordan, Pippen, and Grant were three of the best offensive players in the league.

[kalorama]

I guess I still don't see how the NBA has gotten worse in this respect. Jordan, Pippen, and Grant were three of the best offensive players in the league.

Horace Grant one of the best offensive players in the league? Not so much, really. His main asset was defense and rebounding. He wasn't much more than a solid complementary player on offense.

[Libaax]

I guess I still don't see how the NBA has gotten worse in this respect. Jordan, Pippen, and Grant were three of the best offensive players in the league.

Yeah but they were still one of few teams with that level of offensive talent.

Boston are too old now. What i mean if it becomes Paul/Carmelo/Amare vs Miami 3 . Then the other teams will follow.

There werent many Jordan, Pippen teams running around then. Barkley got with Drexler/Olajuwon when they were too old to be Miami like.

Superstar players dont stick with one team today, its easier to change to other teams to win like Miami.

[Anthony]

If Chris Paul does make it to NY, he'll make the Knicks way better by virtue of giving Amar'e something he needs (a PG that can work the pick and roll properly) and Melo to work off the ball easily. The potential NY big three are actually more complimentary than Miami's big three and that can work wonders for their team game. Amar'e's already proven he can work without the ball when he had Steve Nash and Melo's easy opportunities skyrocket with a point like Paul.

The defense will be a concern but they just need an enforcer type at center and a good defensive SG. Which is why I really hope they don't give up Shumpert to get Paul, that will be an important piece for them.

[Dreadstar]

By the way, are the two Lakers who went through spoiled child tantrums and being ejected in their last game going to be suspended at the beginning of this season?

just curious.

[jesse_custer]

Horace Grant one of the best offensive players in the league? Not so much, really. His main asset was defense and rebounding. He wasn't much more than a solid complementary player on offense.

As a third option, he was very damn good. He shot better than 50 percent from the field. Plus, I'm using him as a comparison to Chris Bosh, since the Heat's offensive might is what concerns Libaax.

[Anthony]

By the way, are the two Lakers who went through spoiled child tantrums and being ejected in their last game going to be suspended at the beginning of this season?

just curious.

I remember Bynum, who was the other one?

Either way they should.

[jesse_custer]

By the way, are the two Lakers who went through spoiled child tantrums and being ejected in their last game going to be suspended at the beginning of this season?

just curious.

My best guess is no.

[Dreadstar]

I remember Bynum, who was the other one?

Odom, a few minutes later, flagrant petulance on Nowitzki.

I mean, Artest got to sit out a game in the same series for a flagrant foul in game 2 when there were also losing very badly (anyone see a pattern there?), I don't see why these should be any different.

[The Once And Forever]

Also you dont have to be good GM to lure in Lebron,Bosh to Miami.

Like hell you didn't. I refuse to believe that that scheme wasn't a long term plan. And even if it wasn't, it's all kicked off by drafting Wade at the 5-spot, which was a fantastic choice, given that he's the only guy in the first five picks of that draft other than Darko to have a ring.


Because Detroit Pistons, Dallas,Spurs has showed team build on team work can win.

Dallas? The team with the owner who's been more than willing to spend spend spend if it gets wins?


Didnt they become elite players after years of being lesser players in Spurs ? They lived on Duncan while waiting for Parker, Manu to become great.

They tanked to get Duncan and pair him up with David Robinson, which seems like a relevant detail, if we're on this whole morals in sports business kick.


It has happened recently in other world sports. The thing i like about US sports is the cap and the fact you cant have too many best all star players in one team because of the salery cap teams have.

The funny thing is, if I recall, the US sport with the most parity has over the past couple decades(Going back to the 00's) has been Baseball, and the MLB doesn't have a cap.

[kalorama]

As a third option, he was very damn good. He shot better than 50 percent from the field. Plus, I'm using him as a comparison to Chris Bosh, since the Heat's offensive might is what concerns Libaax.

He was a damn good third option. But being a good third option doesn't translate to being "one of the best offensive players in the league" esp not in the era he played in. He got most of his points off rebounds and hustle and taking advantage of all the defensive attention drawn by Jordan. He was never really much of a set-up/go-to scoring option.

[jesse_custer]

He was a damn good third option. But being a good third option doesn't translate to being "one of the best offensive players in the league" esp not in the era he played in. He got most of his points off rebounds and hustle and taking advantage of all the defensive attention drawn by Jordan. He was never really much of a set-up/go-to scoring option.

I'm just saying, if one is going to call Bosh one of the best, it's not outlandish to say the same about Grant. I'm debating on terms that have already been laid down by Libaax, so your issue might be with him.

For the record, I'd take Grant over Bosh because the former was a better shooter.

[EZMOHR]

Like hell you didn't. I refuse to believe that that scheme wasn't a long term plan. And even if it wasn't, it's all kicked off by drafting Wade at the 5-spot, which was a fantastic choice, given that he's the only guy in the first five picks of that draft other than Darko to have a ring.



Dallas? The team with the owner who's been more than willing to spend spend spend if it gets wins?



They tanked to get Duncan and pair him up with David Robinson, which seems like a relevant detail, if we're on this whole morals in sports business kick.



The funny thing is, if I recall, the US sport with the most parity has over the past couple decades(Going back to the 00's) has been Baseball, and the MLB doesn't have a cap.

The Spurs didn't tank that season...they sucked all on their own. David Robinson was out the whole season, and Sean Elliot was almost as well. Hell, they were relying on a 37-year old HUman Highlight Film, Carl Herrera, and Vinny Del Negro being their best players. There was no tanking, just sucking.

Anyway, Why would the Knicks want Chris Paul. They have no toughness right now as it is. You don't get tougher with Chris Paul. You get tougher with Dwight Howard. The Knicks need bigger bodies that can rebound, not big bodies that don't want to play D, nor do they need little guys that have been hurt a lot in the last two years.

Anyway, can't wait for my team to get the Tebow NBA treatment with Jimmer this season. That's gonna be the most epic 8.5, 3.2, 2.7 every night on ESPN.

[Kylun123]

Anyway, can't wait for my team to get the Tebow NBA treatment with Jimmer this season. That's gonna be the most epic 8.5, 3.2, 2.7 every night on ESPN.

Honestly, I have no idea what team drafted Jimmer, but I don't see him getting the Tebow treatment at all.

I see him more closely related to Adam Morrison.

[Kylun123]

Are we sure the Knicks with Paul are getting past the first round of the playoffs?

They can probably beat the Magic, right?
But won't the series be great in the Eastern Conf. after the first round (MIA, CHI, BOS, NYK)? What NBA fan wouldn't be watching every game?

[EZMOHR]

Honestly, I have no idea what team drafted Jimmer, but I don't see him getting the Tebow treatment at all.

I see him more closely related to Adam Morrison.

Uhm, he's better than Adam Morrison. By a mile. Better shooter and distributor. MOrrison was a one trick pony. JImmer (Sacramento by the way) while not a just knock your socks off talent, is decent and can play some PG when asked.

But, the reason he'll get the Tebow treatment is because, well he's got that Great White Hope Factor that the NBA and ESPN loves to exploit. Bank on it, he'll be the NBA's Tebow.

[EZMOHR]

Are we sure the Knicks with Paul are getting past the first round of the playoffs?

They can probably beat the Magic, right?
But won't the series be great in the Eastern Conf. after the first round (MIA, CHI, BOS, NYK)? What NBA fan wouldn't be watching every game?

Well, every person East of the Missisippi will. People who like basketball will be watching the Western Confrence playoffs. :smile:

[The Once And Forever]

Uhm, he's better than Adam Morrison. By a mile. Better shooter and distributor. MOrrison was a one trick pony. JImmer (Sacramento by the way) while not a just knock your socks off talent, is decent and can play some PG when asked.

But, the reason he'll get the Tebow treatment is because, well he's got that Great White Hope Factor that the NBA and ESPN loves to exploit. Bank on it, he'll be the NBA's Tebow.
That doesn't really make sense, given that the QB(and prominent face) of the currently undefeated and defending world champion team(that has a widespread fanbase) is white.

Tebow's thing is that he wins despite himself so many times. Jimmer's game doesn't translate like that, he's got amazing skill, minus the athleticism, Tebow's the exact opposite.

[Kylun123]

Tebow's thing is that he wins despite himself so many times. Jimmer's game doesn't translate like that, he's got amazing skill, minus the athleticism, Tebow's the exact opposite.

Well, Tebow's thing is also that he won the National Championship multiple times in college and that he was controversially drafted more highly than anticipated.

I don't think Jimmer matches that storyline, he really only cracked the national scene this past year (at least that's when I first took notice) and didn't have the accomplished college career that Tebow had. So I don't think there will be an ESPN storyline unless Jimmer busts out in the NBA and actually wins games. Tebow would be a national story if he was 5-1 this season or 1-5.

[The Once And Forever]

Well, Tebow's thing is also that he won the National Championship multiple times in college and that he was controversially drafted more highly than anticipated.

I don't think Jimmer matches that storyline, he really only cracked the national scene this past year (at least that's when I first took notice) and didn't have the accomplished college career that Tebow had. So I don't think there will be an ESPN storyline unless Jimmer busts out in the NBA and actually wins games. Tebow would be a national story if he was 5-1 this season or 1-5.
That's what I mean though, it isn't like Tebow was a great passer in College either, but he was a winner there, and he's proving to be a winner in the NFL.

Jimmer's just got mad skill, enough to give BYU the boost it would have needed to make some noise during March(If it weren't for that code of honor...). If he gives Sacramento that same boost, it's just because he's a great player with great skills, not that he's an okay player thanks to a good build with bad skills who, by dint of amazing intangibles, wins anyway.

[EZMOHR]

Part of Tebow's unspoken (because your a racist if you say it...trust me, I've been told that) is that he plays to the stereotypes of "a black QB." We know the stereotype. It's been there awhile. People want to compare him to whom exactly...Vick. Young. Newton. He's nothing like those guys (Even Young is a better passer.) Yet, his appeal, unspoken, is that he's a clean cut WHITE kid, that plays like the stereotype we have for a black QB. It is a great White Hope Story spun a different way.

The NBA has been looking for the next Larry Legend for a looooooonnnggg time. He was the Great White Hope, and the NBA wants another. It's not Dirk, because, well, he ain't American. But, if your a great white baller in the NCAA, and you get drafted, you are built up to be the next bird. It was Van Horn for awhile. Then Wally's World even shorter. Then Adam Morrison. Now, it's Jimmer's turn.

And, I forgive you guys, because you are not from my neck of the woods, but Jimmer Fredette, without stepping on the court, is Sacramento. Not the team. HE IS FREAKING SACRAMENTO RIGHT NOW AT THIS MOMENT. Not Tyreke Evans. Not DeMarcus Cousins. JIMMER. Jimmer's job isn't just to be an NBA player, it is too make sure that a metro area of 800,000+ people doesn't lose an NBA franchise. Jimmer Fredette is the Sacramento Kings right now. Like it or not...the guy is the NBA's Tebow. He's hyped to messianic qualities, and that is all there is to it. I'm sorry you don't like it, but it doesn't make it less fact.

[EZMOHR]

That's what I mean though, it isn't like Tebow was a great passer in College either, but he was a winner there, and he's proving to be a winner in the NFL.

Jimmer's just got mad skill, enough to give BYU the boost it would have needed to make some noise during March(If it weren't for that code of honor...). If he gives Sacramento that same boost, it's just because he's a great player with great skills, not that he's an okay player thanks to a good build with bad skills who, by dint of amazing intangibles, wins anyway.

Jimmer doesn't have mad skills. He's good, not great. He's not a great shooter by any stretch of the immagination. He's not a great defender either. He's an average NBA talent. Not below. Not above. Yet, he has those "intangibles" that Tebow has.

His boost to Sacramento, currently, in all northern CA. media is to save the Kings from the dreaded SoCal scourge. PERIOD. Jimmer is treated as more than a player in Sacramento at the moment.

[Kylun123]

Part of Tebow's unspoken (because your a racist if you say it...trust me, I've been told that) is that he plays to the stereotypes of "a black QB." We know the stereotype. It's been there awhile. People want to compare him to whom exactly...Vick. Young. Newton. He's nothing like those guys (Even Young is a better passer.)

Come back to me when Tebow throws 4 interceptions in a game.

It's funny, because I think the Tebow to VY comparison is a perfect one, and I spent many, many seasons destroying Vince Young, yet having actually watched Tebow's games I've started to question if my VY-hate was justified.

No doubt in order for Tebow to be successful long-term he's gotta learn to be a better QB (i.e. become more accurate passing the ball) but he is managing the game and not producing turnovers, and the Broncos aren't winning despite Tebow the way the Titans had to overcome Young's weaknesses.

Wait, which thread am I in again?


It is a great White Hope Story spun a different way.

I love discussing race in sports, I just don't think Tebow at all meets the criteria. Peyton Manning & Tom Brady & Aaron Rodgers & Drew Brees are the Great White Hope, Tebow certainly follows some of those lines in being clean-cut and polite, but the NFL isn't lacking representation in the white QBs department.

[EZMOHR]

Tebow is the first hugely over white QB that plays like the stereo type black QB. It's more about the athletic part than being a black QB. Tom Brady is a statue. I can outrun Manning's plural. Aaron Rogers is lanky as hell, and Drew Brees is a midget. None of those guys are considered an "athlete" It's not the first thing said about them.

Yet, Tebow, is just as athletic in a unique way as Randall Cunningham. As VY. As Vick. As Cam Newton. It's more of a Tebow is a runner at QB just as good as those guys. The NFL has not had a white QB with this much pub that is a black QB in a stereotypical way. WHy do you think panties were getting wet over Peyton Hillis last year. White guy playing in an un-white position, in an un-white way. Tebow is the same thing as an athletic QB

To be fair, I think Tony Romo is the more accurate description of the white QB as black QB mode. He's more athletic than 3/4's of the starting QB's in the NFL (including Tebow. Hell, including VY at the moment.) He runs, he scrambles, and he's a better passer. Romo is the currently, with Newton being a human INT machine, and Vick sittting the pine, the most consistent athletic QB in the league. Yikes.

Okay, enoght NFL on the NBA thread. :)

[The Once And Forever]

Part of Tebow's unspoken (because your a racist if you say it...trust me, I've been told that) is that he plays to the stereotypes of "a black QB." We know the stereotype. It's been there awhile. People want to compare him to whom exactly...Vick. Young. Newton. He's nothing like those guys (Even Young is a better passer.) Yet, his appeal, unspoken, is that he's a clean cut WHITE kid, that plays like the stereotype we have for a black QB. It is a great White Hope Story spun a different way.

The NBA has been looking for the next Larry Legend for a looooooonnnggg time. He was the Great White Hope, and the NBA wants another. It's not Dirk, because, well, he ain't American. But, if your a great white baller in the NCAA, and you get drafted, you are built up to be the next bird. It was Van Horn for awhile. Then Wally's World even shorter. Then Adam Morrison. Now, it's Jimmer's turn.

And, I forgive you guys, because you are not from my neck of the woods, but Jimmer Fredette, without stepping on the court, is Sacramento. Not the team. HE IS FREAKING SACRAMENTO RIGHT NOW AT THIS MOMENT. Not Tyreke Evans. Not DeMarcus Cousins. JIMMER. Jimmer's job isn't just to be an NBA player, it is too make sure that a metro area of 800,000+ people doesn't lose an NBA franchise. Jimmer Fredette is the Sacramento Kings right now. Like it or not...the guy is the NBA's Tebow. He's hyped to messianic qualities, and that is all there is to it. I'm sorry you don't like it, but it doesn't make it less fact.

To be honest, I never thought of the race thing, because as Kylun mentioned, the NFL doesn't lack for successful White QBs the same way that the NBA lacks for Star White Players. As far as the hype train, I've not seen it, and ESPN freaking loops, not only in my room, but anywhere on campus that has a TV.

The local thing is something I'll take your word on. Though I believe you, because two years ago Indianapolis wanted to do the same thing with Gordon Hayward.

Wonder if they'll do it for Marquis Teague next year? Hah, doubt it, but we'll see.


Jimmer doesn't have mad skills. He's good, not great. He's not a great shooter by any stretch of the immagination. He's not a great defender either. He's an average NBA talent. Not below. Not above. Yet, he has those "intangibles" that Tebow has.

His boost to Sacramento, currently, in all northern CA. media is to save the Kings from the dreaded SoCal scourge. PERIOD. Jimmer is treated as more than a player in Sacramento at the moment.

The main "intangible" Tebow has is winning. Jimmer didn't win. He scored, in bunches, from beyond 3PT range, left hand, right hand, inside, outside. Watch those games, yeah, he's a gunner, but he can get it in the hoop.

But he's white, so it isn't a bad thing, somehow. I did wonder if, back in '95, Allen Iverson took some small school like...Long Beach State, or something to the Big Dance on his volume scoring, if he'd have gotten the same media treatment.

[Kylun123]

WHy do you think panties were getting wet over Peyton Hillis last year. White guy playing in an un-white position, in an un-white way. Tebow is the same thing as an athletic QB

...

Okay, enough NFL on the NBA thread. :)

k, I'm gonna take my response over to the NFL thread.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

Christ. Tebow in an NBA thread. No more of that please. I don't have the stomach.

[Adset]

let's talk instead of how golden state will feature a backcourt of steph curry, monta ellis, and klay thompson. that would be epic if the nba allowed more than one basketball on the court at a time.

[jesse_custer]

Tebow is the first hugely over white QB that plays like the stereo type black QB. It's more about the athletic part than being a black QB. Tom Brady is a statue. I can outrun Manning's plural. Aaron Rogers is lanky as hell, and Drew Brees is a midget. None of those guys are considered an "athlete" It's not the first thing said about them.

True, but I do feel Rodgers has a sneakiness about his running that makes him more dangerous than the athletic QB.

[Cavemold]

let's talk instead of how golden state will feature a backcourt of steph curry, monta ellis, and klay thompson. that would be epic if the nba allowed more than one basketball on the court at a time.

Haha that would be so awesome.

[kalorama]

Christ. Tebow in an NBA thread. No more of that please. I don't have the stomach.

Seriously. I thought I'd clicked on the wrong thread link.

[kalorama]

let's talk instead of how golden state will feature a backcourt of steph curry, monta ellis, and klay thompson. that would be epic if the nba allowed more than one basketball on the court at a time.

The Warriors have to get rid of Ellis, although I somehow doubt they'd amnesty him. He and Curry are a terrible fit and Curry is (nominally) better suited to play the PG slot. No team with Ellis as their leading scorer is going to win anything.

[Cavemold]

Seriously. I thought I'd clicked on the wrong thread link.

Tebow can ball !!! Lol

[Libaax]

Hehe i was so confused thinking who the heck Tebow dude is ? The Larry Bird, Great White Hope comparison confused me even more.

American Football doesnt make any sense to me like Baseball. Some times i try to watch the games but sport that is played in 10 second burst of QB throwing a ball is such a weird one. No wonder its not as global as Basketball, Ice Hockey.

Its a great sport only when its slow motion games in hightlights or in films ;)

[Huthaifa]

Nice of Chris Paul to realize that the Knicks have absolutely nothing to trade with. They gutted their team last year for Carmelo. Guys need to stop wanting to hang with their buddies. The Thunder,Lakers,and even the Clippers offer a better chance at a championship.

[streator]

i'm looking forward to christmas day. i could have done without a season this year but at this point i don't really care about the lockout anymore & i just want to enjoy some nba basketball.

i'm not expecting much from the cavs again this year. they will likely trade/get rid of baron davis or antawn jamison if they can move either. the cavs will be in rebuild mode for at least a few more seasons, which i'm sure will be tough to watch sometimes but it's better than nothing.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

I like how we just had a lockout to improve competitive balance....and as soon as it's over we have Chris Paul, a small market player, holding his team hostage and essentially saying he only wants to play in a big market with his buddies. Lotta good that lockout did.

[Vic Vega]

I like how we just had a lockout to improve competitive balance....and as soon as it's over we have Chris Paul, a small market player, holding his team hostage and essentially saying he only wants to play in a big market with his buddies. Lotta good that lockout did.

Hey, CP3 did his time in the small market. Everybody can't be Tim Duncan.

Speaking of CP:

It is no secret that the Los Angeles Lakers would like to trade for Dwight Howard or Chris Paul, but sources with knowledge of the situation say the Lakers actually have something greater in mind: acquiring both players.

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/7321631/sources-los-angeles-lakers-want-dwight-howard-chris-paul

[Cavemold]

Kobe Dwight cp3 ????Avengers assemble!!

[PiratesPensSteelers]

Hey, CP3 did his time in the small market. Everybody can't be Tim Duncan.

Speaking of CP:

It is no secret that the Los Angeles Lakers would like to trade for Dwight Howard or Chris Paul, but sources with knowledge of the situation say the Lakers actually have something greater in mind: acquiring both players.

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/7321631/sources-los-angeles-lakers-want-dwight-howard-chris-paul

What's the point of having an NBA League then? Is it just to tease the small markets with good players till their rookie contracts end and then they go elsewhere?

[Kasper Cole]

Hey, CP3 did his time in the small market. Everybody can't be Tim Duncan.

Speaking of CP:

It is no secret that the Los Angeles Lakers would like to trade for Dwight Howard or Chris Paul, but sources with knowledge of the situation say the Lakers actually have something greater in mind: acquiring both players.

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/7321631/sources-los-angeles-lakers-want-dwight-howard-chris-paul

The Hornets drove CP3 out of New Orleans. The team doesn't even have an actual owner, the NBA runs that team. They got rid of a coach that he really liked and traded away players he had chemistry with. The New Orleans Hornets don't deserve a player of that caliber.

And i'm not buying those Rumors of a second. I can see the Lakers getting Dwight or maybe settling for Paul, but I refuse to believe they can get BOTH. That would take some serious bullying from Paul and Dwight for that to happen.

[Kylun123]

I like how we just had a lockout to improve competitive balance....and as soon as it's over we have Chris Paul, a small market player, holding his team hostage and essentially saying he only wants to play in a big market with his buddies. Lotta good that lockout did.

Yes, it's so strange as a fan to know that nothing really came out of the lockout other than the owners getting more of the pot, which is all they wanted anyway.

I feel like it was a sham that they cared about competitive balance. From what I understand, they'll still be encouraged/pressured to offer free agents bad contracts just to make a splash in the off-season, the only difference is that now they kind of have an out. But I feel like that's treating the symptoms not the cause, or however that saying goes.

[Tadhg]

I figured the Lakers would split Bynum in half, Solomon style and trade him to both teams.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

The Hornets drove CP3 out of New Orleans. The team doesn't even have an actual owner, the NBA runs that team. They got rid of a coach that he really liked and traded away players he had chemistry with. The New Orleans Hornets don't deserve a player of that caliber.

And i'm not buying those Rumors of a second. I can see the Lakers getting Dwight or maybe settling for Paul, but I refuse to believe they can get BOTH. That would take some serious bullying from Paul and Dwight for that to happen.

Can't argue there about Hornest being crap org.

At the same time? What about Howard and Magic?

[Vic Vega]

What's the point of having an NBA League then? Is it just to tease the small markets with good players till their rookie contracts end and then they go elsewhere?

Six years on the average is hardly a tease.

I'm suppose to feel sorry for the Cavs?

They had thier chance to win a chip.

P.S.: The Hornets are a crap organization and Cleveland is Cleavland of course Lebron and CP3 want out. Amare would have stayed with the Suns had they paid him.

If you are a small market team you just can't affort to be a effed up organization is all.

[kalorama]

Hey, CP3 did his time in the small market. Everybody can't be Tim Duncan.

Speaking of CP:

It is no secret that the Los Angeles Lakers would like to trade for Dwight Howard or Chris Paul, but sources with knowledge of the situation say the Lakers actually have something greater in mind: acquiring both players.

If you're gonna dream, might as well dream big. But it's not gonna happen. The Lakers have exactly one trade chip that might net them a bona fide star in his prime from a team that would be looking at serious rebuilding if they made a deal: Bynum. That's it. Kobe is too old and too expensive to build around from scratch or to think that his arrival alone would make a team a contender (to say nothing of the crapstorm he'd kick up if he got exiled to Orlando or N.O.). Gasol is 31 (not terribly old, but not terribly young either), expensive, and he's not a "build around" kind of player; he's a Robin not a Batman. Odom's not even Robin, he's, I don't know, Commissioner Gordon? Batgirl? That's it. Those are the only players on the Lakers anyone might have any interest in and they won't be enough (and their draft picks wouldn't be worth much if they got Paul and Howard).

[Kylun123]

Six years on the average is hardly a tease.

I'm suppose to feel sorry for the Cavs?

They had thier chance to win a chip.

Exactly. The Miami Heat were never much of a serious franchise. Riley built the Mourning, Hardaway teams but they were never legit contenders.

Miami spent it's early Wade years trading for Shaq, what'd teh Cavs get to build around Lebron?

[frankiedetroit]

Bynum, Gasol and Odom (and, certainly, others) for Paul and Howard. Hmm...

That would leave us pretty short. Literally. Our length is what always got us over. We haven't had a good, solid point guard since Nick Van Exel. But that was with Kobe at full strength and the 7-footers.

With Kobe on the wane—I bet he's reached a point where people will say he's "turned back the clock" when he has a great game—we'll need a better point guard. Would miss Gasol's post-up game. Without him, the Lakers would have no offensive presence down low, unless Howard has added that to his game. I think Gasol's "Gasoft" impersonation last year was an aberration.

That said, it's a trade I'd pull the trigger on, but boy, I would sure love to do it while keeping Gasol. Bynum's awful shove of Barea made him dead to me. Good riddance.

Here's a thought: 2011 version of Paul, Kobe, Gasol, Howard vs the 2004 versions of Payton, Kobe, Shaq and Malone. Current players, which might actually play together, FTW.

[Vic Vega]

If you're gonna dream, might as well dream big. But it's not gonna happen. The Lakers have exactly one trade chip that might net them a bona fide star in his prime from a team that would be looking at serious rebuilding if they made a deal: Bynum. That's it. Kobe is too old and too expensive to build around from scratch or to think that his arrival alone would make a team a contender (to say nothing of the crapstorm he'd kick up if he got exiled to Orlando or N.O.). Gasol is 31 (not terribly old, but not terribly young either), expensive, and he's not a "build around" kind of player; he's a Robin not a Batman. Odom's not even Robin, he's, I don't know, Commissioner Gordon? Batgirl? That's it. Those are the only players on the Lakers anyone might have any interest in and they won't be enough (and their draft picks wouldn't be worth much if they got Paul and Howard).

Agreed.

The Clippers could MAYBE do this if they gutted thier team, but I don't see how the Lakers pull this off without getting into NBA conspracy theorizing.

[kalorama]

Agreed.

The Clippers could MAYBE do this if they gutted thier team, but I don't see how the Lakers pull this off without getting into NBA conspracy theorizing.

The Clippers wouldn't really have to gut their team, at least in theory. They might have enough assets (including an unprotected #1 pick from Minnesota, which is like gold-plated platinum with a diamond core) to trade for Paul and could still have enough cap space to sign Howard as an UFA (depending on how willing they'd be to pay the luxury tax which, given who their owner is, we can assume is not very willing).

[Cavemold]

Kobe Dwight cp3 ????Avengers assemble!!

[JDogindy]

Looks like some of the preseason games are going to be home-and-home stands between teams, such as Chicago and Indiana.

[jesse_custer]

I'm just surprised Bynum is more attractive as a trade, as opposed to Gasol. Gasol is a better AND healthier player.

I don't know, I guess I've always found Bynum pretty overrated.

[kalorama]

Gasol is a better player than Bynum right now. But youth and “potential” are the coins of the realm in the NBA, esp. for a team on the rebuild (which is what the Hornets and/or the Magic would be if they traded Paul/Howard). Trading for Gasol might make either team better in the short term than Bynum, but it wouldn’t make them good enough to contend, or maybe even to make the playoffs, which means they’d be paying Gasol $20 mil/yr. for the next 3 years to lead them to the lottery. And by the time they manage to acquire the pieces around him to be serious threats (assuming they ever did), he’d be heading into (A) his mid-30s and probably on the decline and/or (B) to another team as a FA. From a rebuilding standpoint, Bynum is the better bet. He can provide good production now and he’s young enough to still have some peak years left when the rebuilding is complete.

[Dreadstar]

I'm still pretty convinced that the Lakers are going to go after Griffin when he hits the market.

Nothing to back that up, just a sort of certitude in the way L.A. works.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

Six years on the average is hardly a tease.

I'm suppose to feel sorry for the Cavs?

They had thier chance to win a chip.

P.S.: The Hornets are a crap organization and Cleveland is Cleavland of course Lebron and CP3 want out. Amare would have stayed with the Suns had they paid him.

If you are a small market team you just can't affort to be a effed up organization is all.

You can feel however you want to feel.

I just think having a league setup to treats members of it's own league like a building ground for the future championships is kind of lame. It doesn't build competitive balance they were talking about when big market teams are snaking players away just as they enter their prime.

How many 18,19,20 year old have led their squads to titles btw? Not many.

[kalorama]

You can feel however you want to feel.

I just think having a league setup to treats members of it's own league like a building ground for the future championships is kind of lame. It doesn't build competitive balance they were talking about when big market teams are snaking players away just as they enter their prime.

How many 18,19,20 year old have led their squads to titles btw? Not many.


All that “competitive balance” talk from the owners was so much hot air. This was all about cold hard cash. If the league really cared about addressing the only meaningful “big market/small market” divide that exists, they’d have pushed aggressively for a significant revenue sharing arrangement across all teams. Instead they decided to try and squeeze a few more nickels out of the players. And “competitive balance” isn’t measured by how many titles a team wins (if it were, then there’d never be any because the reality of any sport is that only one team can win in any given year and, over the years, the number of franchises that do it are going to be in a small cluster). It’s measured by how many teams have a fair chance to compete for a shot. And, over the years, smaller market teams (the Pacers, the Kings, the Spurs, the Blazers, the Jazz (with the Grizzlies and Thunder currently on the rise)) have had their shots. They just fell short. There’s no system that’s going to guarantee anyone a title or guarantee that a player with a right to choose his own workplace won’t decide to pull up stakes. Nor should there be.

And of course 18, 19, and 20 year olds don’t lead their teams to titles. That’s why teams can, contractually, hold onto 1st round rookie picks for up to 5 or 6 years after they draft them, before the player can leave under his own power.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

And of course 18, 19, and 20 year olds don’t lead their teams to titles. That’s why teams can, contractually, hold onto 1st round rookie picks for up to 5 or 6 years after they draft them, before the player can leave under his own power.


Which is my point. For half the time you get a rookie you have little chance of winning a title with them as your leader. So you don't get 5 or 6 years with them in a truly competitive way. And as soon as they are at their best, they are gone.

I don't think the league is too uncompetitive. You're right that small markets have had their shots. My problem is with them being able to sustain that level like bigger markets can. And hell, you don't even get that last year because pieces of shit like Carmelo and now Chris Paul hold their teams hostage for that final year until the get traded....so you're basically down to 2 years with that key player when they are mature and talented enough to lead you in the playoffs.

[Kasper Cole]

Can't argue there about Hornest being crap org.

At the same time? What about Howard and Magic?

Orlando painted themselves into a corner with bad trades. Dwight wants to win as soon as possible and Orlando has made that virtually impossible.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

Orlando painted themselves into a corner with bad trades. Dwight wants to win as soon as possible and Orlando has made that virtually impossible.

Wasn't part of the motivation for those trades to appease him and keep him from leaving?

[Kasper Cole]

Wasn't part of the motivation for those trades to appease him and keep him from leaving?

That still doesn't change the fact that they were stupid trades. The Hedo situation was especially embarrassing. Otis Smith screwed up. He had two seasons to make things better but they've only gotten worse. Players know a bad situation when they see it.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

That still doesn't change the fact that they were stupid trades. The Hedo situation was especially embarrassing. Otis Smith screwed up. He had two seasons to make things better but they've only gotten worse. Players know a bad situation when they see it.

Yeah, but that goes into the players holding teams hostage thing as well. You know they might leave if you don't give them a daily tug job to remind them they are gods gift to the earth....and since they aren't patient enough to let you develop a team, they stress out, make deals to appease their lord and savior, and then pay for it when the trade doesn't work out because A) the trade didn't work, and B) they lose their special someone who isn't happy that you weren't able to create the perfect team on their timeline.

[kalorama]

Which is my point. For half the time you get a rookie you have little chance of winning a title with them as your leader. So you don't get 5 or 6 years with them in a truly competitive way.

I have no idea what a "truly competitive way" means, but I do know that the Bulls looked pretty competitive with Derrick Rose last season, in the 3rd year of his rookie deal. The Cavs made it to the Finals during Lebron's rookie contract. The Thunder made it to the conference finals during Durant's rookie deal. All of those teams are/were in a position where one or two smart deals could have put them over the top. The Cavs didn't make the right deals. It remains to be seen whether the Bulls and Thunder will. But the opportunity is/was there.

And this whole "players holding teams hostage" thing is nonsense. If the owners think it's such a terrible injustice being done to small markets then (A) introduce across the board revenue sharing so that everyone is spending from the same pool of money or (B) introduce a hard cap with no exceptions, so everyone is forced to spend the same amount. But enough with demonizing the players for exercising a right that the owners themselves contractually allowed them. If you ask a guy where he wants to play, he has every right to say "somewhere else."

[Vic Vega]

That loyalty stuff works both ways.

Look at Perk. Or Trevor Ariza for that matter.

If there is a deal that is out there that benefical to the player he'd best take it. Because its not like the owners won't. Unless they are too inept to do so.

Most of these guys would have signed extentions if they'd thought thier teams were going anywhere.

[jesse_custer]

Gasol is a better player than Bynum right now. But youth and “potential” are the coins of the realm in the NBA, esp. for a team on the rebuild (which is what the Hornets and/or the Magic would be if they traded Paul/Howard). Trading for Gasol might make either team better in the short term than Bynum, but it wouldn’t make them good enough to contend, or maybe even to make the playoffs, which means they’d be paying Gasol $20 mil/yr. for the next 3 years to lead them to the lottery. And by the time they manage to acquire the pieces around him to be serious threats (assuming they ever did), he’d be heading into (A) his mid-30s and probably on the decline and/or (B) to another team as a FA. From a rebuilding standpoint, Bynum is the better bet. He can provide good production now and he’s young enough to still have some peak years left when the rebuilding is complete.

Rebuilding with Bynum just seems silly based on the severity of his injuries.

Youth doesn't mean a whole lot if you're not even on the court.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

I have no idea what a "truly competitive way" means, but I do know that the Bulls looked pretty competitive with Derrick Rose last season, in the 3rd year of his rookie deal. The Cavs made it to the Finals during Lebron's rookie contract. The Thunder made it to the conference finals during Durant's rookie deal. All of those teams are/were in a position where one or two smart deals could have put them over the top. The Cavs didn't make the right deals. It remains to be seen whether the Bulls and Thunder will. But the opportunity is/was there.

Bulls are a bad example. They lucked into drafting Rose and they aren't small market.

Truly competitive, I mean you have a legit shot at winning a title. When you pick an 18-20 year old and you're a small market team in the lottery, the first 3 years are most likely going to be used just to get in the playoffs, get a feel for it, and still find some pieces to put around them. Year 4 and 5, you're good to go hopefully and then last year of the contract player starts crying till he gets traded so you lose that year anyway.

And even then, if you do win as a small market team with one of these guys....it's still not enough to convince them to stay. Why didn't Carmelo stay? Why didn't Lebron stay? Why is Howard looking to get out? It's ridiculous.

[jesse_custer]

Why didn't Carmelo stay? Why didn't Lebron stay? Why is Howard looking to get out? It's ridiculous.

The answers to the last two questions are obvious for me.

But I have wondered why Anthony thought the Nuggets weren't a good enough team.

[Anthony]

And even then, if you do win as a small market team with one of these guys....it's still not enough to convince them to stay. Why didn't Carmelo stay? Why didn't Lebron stay? Why is Howard looking to get out? It's ridiculous.

That's simple. Championships. If the Cavs, Nuggets, or Magic were winning Championships, these players would have stayed. They didn't so, you go to where you think you might win a championship and get paid in the process.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

The answers to the last two questions are obvious for me.

But I have wondered why Anthony thought the Nuggets weren't a good enough team.

If they were 30 years old (Howard,Lebron) at the time of their FA, I get it. You're running out of time. Mid-Twenties, let things play out. That's how I feel. Forcing people's hands while isolating your current team, fans is bullshit to me.

[Anthony]

The answers to the last two questions are obvious for me.

But I have wondered why Anthony thought the Nuggets weren't a good enough team.

Being out west and seeing the Lakers get handed Pau Gasol couldn't have helped. I do think part of it was a family decision though, both he and his wife have a soft spot for NY.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

That's simple. Championships. If the Cavs, Nuggets, or Magic were winning Championships, these players would have stayed. They didn't so, you go to where you think you might win a championship and get paid in the process.

Right now those guys have forced their ways to teams that weren't winning either. Knicks haven't won in ages and the Heat I'm not sure you can even count as the team that won the title recently wasn't even close to what as there 2 off seasons ago.

[Anthony]

If they were 30 years old (Howard,Lebron) at the time of their FA, I get it. You're running out of time. Mid-Twenties, let things play out. That's how I feel. Forcing people's hands while isolating your current team, fans is bullshit to me.

They're heading into their prime years though. After seeing Lebron team up with Wade in order to get an easier path to the Finals. Most of these guys realize we need to do everything we can to win championships now. Otherwise, they probably fear a Bulls-like Dynasty on the horizon. The Heat were two games away from the trophy in year 1, they didn't have to split up after the lockout and the two main players are in their prime right now. That's a rapidly closing window for Dwight, Chris, Carmelo, Amar'e, Deron, et. al.

[kalorama]

Bulls are a bad example. They lucked into drafting Rose and they aren't small market.

Beside the point. You argued that a player early in his rookie contract can't truly lead a team in the playoffs. Rose led (hell, he carried his team to the conference finals and won MVP 3 years in. It can be done, if it's the right player.


Truly competitive, I mean you have a legit shot at winning a title. When you pick an 18-20 year old and you're a small market team in the lottery, the first 3 years are most likely going to be used just to get in the playoffs, get a feel for it, and still find some pieces to put around them. Year 4 and 5, you're good to go hopefully and then last year of the contract player starts crying till he gets traded so you lose that year anyway.

All of which (aside from being far, far from any kind of indelible truth) ignores a simple, basic truth. If, by year 4 or 5, the team is really a legit contender then the player most likely won't have anything to "cry" about. Anthony was an elite player from the day he entered the NBA and the Nuggets were in the playoffs every season he was there. The Nuggets had already peaked and were beginning to backslide by the time last season rolled around. They had 6 (or was it 7) years to build a title team around Anthony, so the notion that they just didn't have time is ridiculous. He gave them close to a decade and they failed to get the job done. He owed them nothing after that. Same with Lebron (the made it to the Finals his 3rd season in the league; so there was really no "getting a feel for it"). The Magic made it to the Finals 2 years ago and have gotten worse every season since.


And even then, if you do win as a small market team with one of these guys....it's still not enough to convince them to stay. Why didn't Carmelo stay? Why didn't Lebron stay? Why is Howard looking to get out? It's ridiculous.

See previous paragraph.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

They're heading into their prime years though. After seeing Lebron team up with Wade in order to get an easier path to the Finals. Most of these guys realize we need to do everything we can to win championships now. Otherwise, they probably fear a Bulls-like Dynasty on the horizon. The Heat were two games away from the trophy in year 1, they didn't have to split up after the lockout and the two main players are in their prime right now. That's a rapidly closing window for Dwight, Chris, Carmelo, Amar'e, Deron, et. al.

If they think that they are playing scared. Wade is running on borrowed time right now the way he plays. His body isn't gonna hold up and have him be as effective as he's been in the past. And when that happens, that team is a wrap. Lebron ain't leading anybody anywhere, that's for damn sure.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

Beside the point. You argued that a player early in his rookie contract can't truly lead a team in the playoffs. Rose led (hell, he carried his team to the conference finals and won MVP 3 years in. It can be done, if it's the right player.



All of which (aside from being far, far from any kind of indelible truth) ignores a simple, basic truth. If, by year 4 or 5, the team is really a legit contender then the player most likely won't have anything to "cry" about. Anthony was an elite player from the day he entered the NBA and the Nuggets were in the playoffs every season he was there. The Nuggets had already peaked and were beginning to backslide by the time last season rolled around. They had 6 (or was it 7) years to build a title team around Anthony, so the notion that they just didn't have time is ridiculous. He gave them close to a decade and they failed to get the job done. He owed them nothing after that. Same with Lebron (the made it to the Finals his 3rd season in the league; so there was really no "getting a feel for it"). The Magic made it to the Finals 2 years ago and have gotten worse every season since.



See previous paragraph.

No, it's not beside the point. The Bulls were already headed in the right direction when they got him. Most of the time, when you draft a guy that talented at the top of the draft you're doing so from a very weak position as a team. Let's focus not on the exception, but the rule. Very few rookies every get drafted number one and walk into a team like that.

What the hell in sports is indelible truth? If there indelible truths involved, who the hell would watch?

How do we know the Nuggets peaked? Why couldn't they have made moves down the line that changes their fortunes? What if they trade Billups, get someone younger back, and take Nene's money they don't spend this off season and plug someone else in that helps? There was time to still make adjustments and reshape that team. How are those wildcards any different than going to the Knicks and waiting to see who they add to finally put a championship team together?

[Kasper Cole]

That loyalty stuff works both ways.

Look at Perk. Or Trevor Ariza for that matter.

If there is a deal that is out there that benefical to the player he'd best take it. Because its not like the owners won't. Unless they are too inept to do so.

Most of these guys would have signed extentions if they'd thought thier teams were going anywhere.

And those are just the smaller names. I'll never forget what the Knicks did to Patrick Ewing. The Sacramento Kings didn't exactly do right by Chris Webber. Phoenix basically gave Amare the finger every year around the trade deadline.

[kalorama]

It's a business. There's no "doing right" or "doing wrong" beyond what's best for the doer's own bottom line. Teams have every right to get rid of players who aren't producing and players have every right (when it's contractually allowable for them to do so) to leave teams they no longer want to play for. I really don't see any issues of "right" or "wrong."

[Cavemold]

It's a business. There's no "doing right" or "doing wrong" beyond what's best for the doer's own bottom line. Teams have every right to get rid of players who aren't producing and players have every right (when it's contractually allowable for them to do so) to leave teams they no longer want to play for. I really don't see any issues of "right" or "wrong."

Agreed.........

[kalorama]

No, it's not beside the point. The Bulls were already headed in the right direction when they got him. Most of the time, when you draft a guy that talented at the top of the draft you're doing so from a very weak position as a team. Let's focus not on the exception, but the rule. Very few rookies every get drafted number one and walk into a team like that.

A team like what? The season prior to drafting Rose, the Bulls won 33 games and missed the playoffs. The 3 seasons before that they had 2 first round outs and one second round out. They certainly didn't look like a team on the fast track to winning to me. At best, they were a mid-level team that wasn't good enough to really threaten and not bad enough to amass the assets to really improve. Not sure where you're getting the idea that the Bulls were a team fast on the rise. Moreover, the team that Rose took to the playoffs the last 2 seasons (and the conf. finals last season) is a completely different team than the one they had before he got there. Luol Deng and Noah are pretty much the only holdovers from pre-Rose. Every other player is a new acquisition, so the whole "they had the other pieces already in place" argument doesn't fly. They rebuilt the team, pretty much from scratch, around Rose over the past 2 years.



What the hell in sports is indelible truth? If there indelible truths involved, who the hell would watch?

Exactly my point. That entire 5 year scenario you laid out like it was some kind of standard rule isn't even close. Sometimes it happens that way, sometimes it doesn't. There's no rule one way or the other. It's all circumstantial from team-to-team.



How do we know the Nuggets peaked? Why couldn't they have made moves down the line that changes their fortunes? What if they trade Billups, get someone younger back, and take Nene's money they don't spend this off season and plug someone else in that helps? There was time to still make adjustments and reshape that team.

The Nuggets had 7 years to make "moves that changed their fortunes." They didn't get it done. Why should Anthony be obligated to wait for another 7 years for them to get their act together? Oh, that's right, he wasn't.



How are those wildcards any different than going to the Knicks and waiting to see who they add to finally put a championship team together?

The difference is that he wanted to be in NY and didn't want to be in Denver. And when he had the right to choose (a right granted him by the owners) he chose NY.

[Ikonic]

Why is Chris Paul garnering more attention than Dwight Howard?

[Cavemold]

Why is Chris Paul garnering more attention than Dwight Howard?

I don't Know .. Weird.

[Kylun123]

Beside the point. You argued that a player early in his rookie contract can't truly lead a team in the playoffs. Rose led (hell, he carried his team to the conference finals and won MVP 3 years in. It can be done, if it's the right player.

Agreed. Lebron made the NBA Finals in his 4th year with Larry Hughes as the next best player. Though maybe Lebron is the exception.


A team like what? The season prior to drafting Rose, the Bulls won 33 games and missed the playoffs. The 3 seasons before that they had 2 first round outs and one second round out.

Right, I'm pretty sure Noah & Deng are the only players on this past team from the Bulls team that drafted him.

[kalorama]

Why is Chris Paul garnering more attention than Dwight Howard?

More attention from whom? I doubt Paul is actually getting more attention from other teams. He's probably getting more attention in the media because a few days ago it was reported that his agent went to Hornets management and requested a trade, while Howard is still playing coy. The public admission that he's looking for an out is probably what prompted the more direct scrutiny of Paul.

[Aubergine~!]

Lots of buzz going around about the Lakers going after both Paul and Howard. Don't see it happening, but its the Lakers, so who knows? They're probably the only team that can afford all the baggage they'd have to pick up along the deal (plus Kobe's salary).

They'd probably have to involve a number of other teams, give up their front court, and take on the horrendous contracts of Turkoglu and Okafor, but Kobe-Paul-Howard would crap all over Miami's big 3, IMO.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

The difference is that he wanted to be in NY and didn't want to be in Denver. And when he had the right to choose (a right granted him by the owners) he chose NY.

Except that he didn't wait until he had the right to choose. He sabotaged his last season there and the off season leading up to it. It leads to things like this (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33784/source-mood-awkward-in-orlando) and it alienates the entire organization and fanbase at that time. Supporting that isn't a POV a true fan of the NBA would take and is more indicative of an NBA star dick rider/enabler. At least in my eyes. When they do shit like this, they take away from the league and make it all about themselves before it's even time to make it about themselves.

[Kylun123]

Except that he didn't wait until he had the right to choose. He sabotaged his last season there and the off season leading up to it.

Why is this any different than the Matt Forte (Hillis or Chris Johnson in the offseason) situations in the NFL?

[PiratesPensSteelers]

Why is this any different than the Matt Forte (Hillis or Chris Johnson in the offseason) situations in the NFL?

For me, because of 2 huge differences. NFL contracts aren't guaranteed and the career lifespan of an NFL RB is way short. With that said, I don't like when it happens in the NFL either, but this isn't an NFL thread (despite the disgusting Tebow segway we had) and I didn't feel the need to bring that sport into it.

[Kylun123]

For me, because of 2 huge differences. NFL contracts aren't guaranteed and the career lifespan of an NFL RB is way short. With that said, I don't like when it happens in the NFL either, but this isn't an NFL thread (despite the disgusting Tebow segway we had) and I didn't feel the need to bring that sport into it.

Yeah, I know, I'm just drawing the comparisons, that when a player is a free agent after the season it's a known fact what his intentions are.

If Dwight Howard doesn't want to continue his career in Orlando and thinks he has a better opportunity to win somewhere else, I don't see why that should make things "awkward". It's kind of just how sports works in general.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

Yeah, I know, I'm just drawing the comparisons, that when a player is a free agent after the season it's a known fact what his intentions are.

If Dwight Howard doesn't want to continue his career in Orlando and thinks he has a better opportunity to win somewhere else, I don't see why that should make things "awkward". It's kind of just how sports works in general.

Because if they don't get a good offer before the season you're playing the season just waiting for them to blow the team up and you never know if you're one of the guys getting moved as well. No sense of stability.

[Kylun123]

Because if they don't get a good offer before the season you're playing the season just waiting for them to blow the team up and you never know if you're one of the guys getting moved as well. No sense of stability.

But that only happens in the final season of someone's contract, and what's the alternative? That Howard should sign an extension to avoid the one lame duck year?
It's not like Howard's going to just quit on the team and not perform.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

But that only happens in the final season of someone's contract, and what's the alternative? That Howard should sign an extension to avoid the one lame duck year?
It's not like Howard's going to just quit on the team and not perform.

If you know you're leader isn't fully committed to the team and is just waiting to be shipped out, you really think that's not going to affect a team's psyche and willingness to do what's necessary to win? That's pretty naive.

[The Once And Forever]

If you know you're leader isn't fully committed to the team and is just waiting to be shipped out, you really think that's not going to affect a team's psyche and willingness to do what's necessary to win? That's pretty naive.

Well, if you're leader is the kind of person that would show that, then you're already pretty fucked over, well before he would have gotten into his contract year.

That's also assuming that the best player is or has to be the leader of the team, Kobe(and or Shaq) were far and away the best players on the Lakers' dynastic teams, but I doubt anyone would say they were the leaders, if anything, I'd say that Fish and Phil were those guys.

Not everyone can be Bill Russel.

[kalorama]

Because if they don't get a good offer before the season you're playing the season just waiting for them to blow the team up and you never know if you're one of the guys getting moved as well. No sense of stability.

Which is why there's a good chance Paul and Howard will be moved before the season starts, to avoid that.


If you know you're leader isn't fully committed to the team and is just waiting to be shipped out, you really think that's not going to affect a team's psyche and willingness to do what's necessary to win? That's pretty naive.

But you still didn't answer Kylun's question: What's the alternative? What are the players supposed to do, agree to sign sign 15 year contracts with no out clauses as rookies to spare the owners the discomfort of losing an employee?

Presumably, the owners actually read the contracts before giving them to the players to sign, so they know full well in advance when their FA year is coming up and what the potential ramifications of that are. If they fail to take adequate steps to address or avoid those consequences, that's no one's fault but their own. The players are simply working within the framework of the system that's been established for them, which they have every right to do.

[Anthony]

Why is Chris Paul garnering more attention than Dwight Howard?

Because CP has said he wants to go to NY.

Dwight hasn't made any such declaration.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

Which is why there's a good chance Paul and Howard will be moved before the season starts, to avoid that.


Which is the holding a team hostage thing I'm talking about. Neither of their teams are in a position to get top value for their players now that everyone knows they are bargaining from the position of power when they ask about acquiring.

The same thing happens when a team is trying to make a deal to add pieces and the other team involved knows they are desperate to get ANY deal done just to show Baby Superstar they are doing what it takes to compete. If you think (as a player) a team is going to make the best decisions possible for the org when you're hovering over them with the threat of leaving if they don't, you're (the player) just a fucking idiot.



But you still didn't answer Kylun's question: What's the alternative? What are the players supposed to do, agree to sign sign 15 year contracts with no out clauses as rookies to spare the owners the discomfort of losing an employee?

Presumably, the owners actually read the contracts before giving them to the players to sign, so they know full well in advance when their FA year is coming up and what the potential ramifications of that are. If they fail to take adequate steps to address or avoid those consequences, that's no one's fault but their own. The players are simply working within the framework of the system that's been established for them, which they have every right to do.


I've never said they don't have a right to do something. But you can have a right to do something and still be making a dick move.

What are they to do? Show patience? Respect the league and don't treat teams not in LA, NY, Dallas, or Chicago as stepping stones. Not all do this. Durant is one of a handful of players that aren't bred with the megalomaniac asshole gene.

I've never said players should be locked into one team for life. But this whiny, bitchy baby thing, while not new, is definitely becoming a regular occurrence. The players need to be taken to task for acting like babies and the owners need to be taken to task for locking the players out in hopes of stoping things like that, only to walk right back into mess where nothing has changed (for the most part).

[Kasper Cole]

Which is the holding a team hostage thing I'm talking about. Neither of their teams are in a position to get top value for their players now that everyone knows they are bargaining from the position of power when they ask about acquiring.

The same thing happens when a team is trying to make a deal to add pieces and the other team involved knows they are desperate to get ANY deal done just to show Baby Superstar they are doing what it takes to compete. If you think (as a player) a team is going to make the best decisions possible for the org when you're hovering over them with the threat of leaving if they don't, you're (the player) just a fucking idiot.



I've never said they don't have a right to do something. But you can have a right to do something and still be making a dick move.

What are they to do? Show patience? Respect the league and don't treat teams not in LA, NY, Dallas, or Chicago as stepping stones. Not all do this. Durant is one of a handful of players that aren't bred with the megalomaniac asshole gene.

I've never said players should be locked into one team for life. But this whiny, bitchy baby thing, while not new, is definitely becoming a regular occurrence. The players need to be taken to task for acting like babies and the owners need to be taken to task for locking the players out in hopes of stoping things like that, only to walk right back into mess where nothing has changed (for the most part).

Durant isn't in a bad situation. He plays for a team that has a good GM and owners who clearly want to win.

The thing about most NBA team owners is, many of them have NO interest in winning or they have no clue how to go about building a winning team.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

Durant isn't in a bad situation. He plays for a team that has a good GM and owners who clearly want to win.

The thing about most NBA team owners is, many of them have NO interest in winning or they have no clue how to go about building a winning team.

So, you force trades to to the Knicks, lol. Ooooookay.

[Kylun123]

Which is the holding a team hostage thing I'm talking about. Neither of their teams are in a position to get top value for their players now that everyone knows they are bargaining from the position of power when they ask about acquiring.

But that's simply how sports work. The guy has a contract which expires, you either let it play out or trade him to get something of value.

Cardinals had the same thing this season with Albert Pujols. They didn't work out an extension but that doesn't mean they have to trade him to get something of value, instead they keep him and win the World Series.

Basketball is different because each player is so much more important, but I don't see how you can avoid a contract running out other than by signing life-time contracts and simply allowing franchises to move players via trade and that's all.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

But that's simply how sports work. The guy has a contract which expires, you either let it play out or trade him to get something of value.

Cardinals had the same thing this season with Albert Pujols. They didn't work out an extension but that doesn't mean they have to trade him to get something of value, instead they keep him and win the World Series.

Basketball is different because each player is so much more important, but I don't see how you can avoid a contract running out other than by signing life-time contracts and simply allowing franchises to move players via trade and that's all.

It's not an easy solution. If it were, the owners would have taken care of it during the lockout. But players not acting like megalomaniacs is the first place I'd look to start. You get a guaranteed contract in the NBA. Some level of not acting like an asshat should be expected.

[Kasper Cole]

So, you force trades to to the Knicks, lol. Ooooookay.

The trades are for the benefit of the team more than anything else.

The team doesn't HAVE to trade a player, but at the same time once that players contract is up they can leave and that team will have NOTHING.

A team will rather go through what Denver did than go through what Orlando did in the late 90's or the Cavs are going though now.

[Kasper Cole]

It's not an easy solution. If it were, the owners would have taken care of it during the lockout. But players not acting like megalomaniacs is the first place I'd look to start. You get a guaranteed contract in the NBA. Some level of not acting like an asshat should be expected.

How are they acting like Megalomanics? They're doing what best for their own careers.

You want every player in the NBA to end up like Kevin Garnett? He stayed as long as he possibly could and ended up wasting the best years of his career with one of the most incompetent organizations in the NBA.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

The trades are for the benefit of the team more than anything else.

The team doesn't HAVE to trade a player, but at the same time once that players contract is up they can leave and that team will have NOTHING.

A team will rather go through what Denver did than go through what Orlando did in the late 90's or the Cavs are going though now.

That has nothing to do with what you commented on before. You're moving all over the place.

My comment was in regards to you saying that these players want traded to orgs that want to win and with GM's that can put a winner together. And 2 of the people we are talking about wanted to join the Knicks which is laughable as they are the epitome of being shittily ran over the years. And the guy that got them out of this hole is no longer with the team and they are forever flirting with bringing back the albatross known as Isiah all the time.

I don't disagree that players can do whatever the want. They are allowed. Doesn't make it healthy for the look of the NBA or fans of teams that aren't one of the special few all of the prima donnas are looking to play for.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

How are they acting like Megalomanics? They're doing what best for their own careers.


You asked and answered your own question.

Putting themselves over the game and the league. It's embarrassing. Or at least it should be to anyone with an ounce of humility and respect for basketball.

[Kasper Cole]

You asked and answered your own question.

Putting themselves over the game and the league. It's embarrassing. Or at least it should be to anyone with an ounce of humility and respect for basketball.

Every player should put themselves above the league and the game. That's not acting like a megalomaniac, that's not being a dumbass.

What you're saying is especially egregious considering teams will trade players at a moments notice if they can profit from it in some way or another. You're expecting Players to have a degree of loyalty to their teams that the teams don't have for them.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

Every player should put themselves above the league and the game. That's not acting like a megalomaniac, that's not being a dumbass.

What you're saying is especially egregious considering teams will trade players at a moments notice if they can profit from it in some way or another. You're expecting Players to have a degree of loyalty to their teams that the teams don't have for them.

No, I'm expecting the players to have a degree of loyalty for the game and the fans.

But to each their own. It's cool you don't see fault with players that treat the NBA like it's AAU basketball.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

The good news is that with shorter contracts thanks to new CBA, we will be able to deal with this even more now. Should be exciting times.


There's one thing that won't change in the post-lockout NBA. In fact, the lockout only served to drive the point home: Players have the power (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7304284/nba-players-power-new-deal), as long as they show a willingness to take less money.

The parting shot from the last collective bargaining agreement was the Carmelo Anthony saga, when the Denver Nuggets (and the entire NBA news cycle) were held hostage by Anthony's desire to force a trade to the New York Knicks. The new agreement hasn't even been ratified yet and already the next big story is Chris Paul's wish to leave New Orleans and join the Knicks as well. Dwight Howard might be on the move before that can happen. And there's no guarantee that Deron Williams, who took the same route out of Utah as Carmelo minus the fanfare, will stay with the Nets. As much as ever, it's a players' league.

"There's no doubt," an Eastern Conference team executive said. "It's even easier for player movement. Shorter contracts means they can be unrestricted [free agents] faster."

Yes, with the contracts limited to five years with a current team and four for newcomers, players will reach the final year faster, which means we'll be dealing with these scenarios even more frequently. And how did we reach this point?

[Kasper Cole]

No, I'm expecting the players to have a degree of loyalty for the game and the fans.

But to each their own. It's cool you don't see fault with players that treat the NBA like it's AAU basketball.

I'm really not even grasping what you're talking about.

They leaving one team for another in the hopes of increasing their chances of winning and earning more money. I can't think of any team sport where that doesn't happen.

They're not showing a lack of loyalty for the game. I'm pretty sure Dwight & Chris Paul will be in the NBA next season.

As for the fans players leave via free agency and trades ALL THE TIME. It's been happening for decades upon decades. It's not even unique to the NBA.

It really does seem like you're proposing lifetime contracts for players.

[kalorama]

Which is the holding a team hostage thing I'm talking about. Neither of their teams are in a position to get top value for their players now that everyone knows they are bargaining from the position of power when they ask about acquiring.

Those are just the rules of business. In any business deal, one side is going to have some advantage and press it. That's not the players' fault, that's just a fact of life. And absolutely no one is being "held hostage." If terms don't want to deal with players leaving under these circumstances, then they should do a better job of creating circumstances (i.e., contending) that make them want to stay. if they can't do that, then the consequences are on them. If the situations were reversed and the team was disappointed in the player's production/results and didn't have confidence things would improve, do you think the GM would go ahead and offer the player a multiyear, big money deal anyway? Of course not. So why should the player be beholden to stay in a situation he no longer wants to be in? You seem to have this idea that there's some kind of personal covenant between a player and a team. There isn't. It's a business relationship. That's all.


The same thing happens when a team is trying to make a deal to add pieces and the other team involved knows they are desperate to get ANY deal done just to show Baby Superstar they are doing what it takes to compete. If you think (as a player) a team is going to make the best decisions possible for the org when you're hovering over them with the threat of leaving if they don't, you're (the player) just a fucking idiot.

That makes no sense at all. Why wouldn't a GM make a decision that's in the best interests of the team in that circumstance. That's his fucking job, to make decisions that are in the best possible interests of the team. The key word there is "possible" because, as is always the case with any business decisions, the range of options available to him are going to be dictated by the circumstances surrounding the situation, but within those parameters, there are still options that are clearly better for the team than the others. if the GM can't discern between the good ones and bad ones and choose accordingly, then he needs to be sacked, ASAP. Just because he can't get the best possible deal in the whole wide world doesn't mean he can't get a deal that's in the best interest of the team in that particular situation.


I've never said they don't have a right to do something. But you can have a right to do something and still be making a dick move.

Which leads us right back to Kylun's question that you still haven't answered: What alternative move would you suggest?



What are they to do? Show patience? Respect the league and don't treat teams not in LA, NY, Dallas, or Chicago as stepping stones. Not all do this. Durant is one of a handful of players that aren't bred with the megalomaniac asshole gene.

How is waiting 6 or 7 years not showing patience? Pro sports careers don't last forever. How long should you have to wait for someone to change before it becomes clear they aren't going to?


I've never said players should be locked into one team for life. But this whiny, bitchy baby thing, while not new, is definitely becoming a regular occurrence. The players need to be taken to task for acting like babies and the owners need to be taken to task for locking the players out in hopes of stoping things like that, only to walk right back into mess where nothing has changed (for the most part).

Well, that's just fannish over-emotionalism, really. No one needs to be "taken to task" (whatever that means) for anything. A contract is a business arrangement. When the contract ends, all parties are free to part company and go their own ways. That's all this is.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

I'm really not even grasping what you're talking about.

They leaving one team for another in the hopes of increasing their chances of winning and earning more money. I can't think of any team sport where that doesn't happen.

They're not showing a lack of loyalty for the game. I'm pretty sure Dwight & Chris Paul will be in the NBA next season.

As for the fans players leave via free agency and trades ALL THE TIME. It's been happening for decades upon decades. It's not even unique to the NBA.

It really does seem like you're proposing lifetime contracts for players.

I'll just advise you to stop bothering to read what I'm writing as it's not getting anywhere.

Nobody once said anything about a lifetime contract. I'm not a fan of holding teams hostage. The end. Fans get fucked, and I don't like it. If you're not one of 4 or 5 teams, you're pretty much turning into an anti-superstar team with the exception of having them for rookie contracts.

[PiratesPensSteelers]

That makes no sense at all. Why wouldn't a GM make a decision that's in the best interests of the team in that circumstance. That's his fucking job, to make decisions that are in the best interests of the team.

No shit, captain obvious. But when teams you're dealing with know you're dealing from an angle of desperation, you're not going be able to get the best deal possible. So while baby superstar is saying "hey, give me a good team", he's fucking over his GM at the same time.



Which leads us right back to Kylun's question that you still haven't answered: What alternative move would you suggest?


I already answered it. You can keep asking though. It's not a black and white fix. Respect for the league and fans is my starting point. Feel free to ask me for a 4th time though.



Well, that's just fannish over-emotionalism, really. No one needs to be "taken to task" (whatever that means) for anything. A contract is a business arrangement. When the contract ends, all parties are free to part company and go their own ways. That's all this is.

You've said a few times "when a contract ends" a player can do what he wants while totally ignoring the main thing I've been griping about.....that players are doing what they want before the contract is even over.

[BYC]

You do realize that Magic Johnson himself got Paul Westhead fired in 1982 right? After the team won in 1980 no less. Everybody hated the coach, and wanted him gone. Magic spoke up and wanted Westhead gone, or else he would have demanded a trade. Jerry Buss fired Westhead and installed Pat Riley as the coach.

This was after they won in 1980, and Magic signed the famous 25 year/25 million contract.

Loyalty from Magic? Fuck that, he wanted to win. If he can't do it as a Laker, he would have gone elsewhere.

Not to mention, he had Kareem at that point already, and I believe Elgin Baylor at his final years. Then they drafted James Worthy, AC Green, and Byron Scott.

[Kasper Cole]

You do realize that Magic Johnson himself got Paul Westhead fired in 1982 right? After the team won in 1980 no less. Everybody hated the coach, and wanted him gone. Magic spoke up and wanted Westhead gone, or else he would have demanded a trade. Jerry Buss fired Westhead and installed Pat Riley as the coach.

This was after they won in 1980, and Magic signed the famous 25 year/25 million contract.

Loyalty from Magic? Fuck that, he wanted to win. If he can't do it as a Laker, he would have gone elsewhere.

Not to mention, he had Kareem at that point already, and I believe Elgin Baylor at his final years. Then they drafted James Worthy, AC Green, and Byron Scott.

Elgin Baylor retired LONG before Magic was even in the NBA. Baylor retired a year before West and Wilt crushed the rest of the league in 72.

And it's funny you mention Kareem, because he's another player who forced a trade from a team that he had success with.