The Mighty Thor #8 *Spoilers*

[jpbl1976]

Having just read The Mighty Thor 8, I have to say two things:

1. Tanarus turned-out to be a Villain-in-disguise, as I've long suspected. In the years that I've read Thor, the only time someone who actually looked like a villain who wasn't one was when Beta Ray Bill made his debut, so it wasn't surprising that Tanarus turned out be Ulik.

2. This is the first Fraction story I've sort of liked because it was actually coherent for a change and he didn't unnecessarily discard continuity in favor of story.

Anyway, in Mighty Thor 8, the story threads that have been developing in the background finally come to the forefront and we learn that Karnilla has been using the chaos in the 9 worlds to her advantage and that she has a lot of unpleasant things in store for the Aesir/Vanir/Trolls/Citizens of Asgardia.

In short, she's responsible for the 9 Worlds-wide Jedi mind-trick that's substituted Tanarus for Goldilocks in the collective conscience -- though not, apparently, Brian Bendis' since it's evident in the latest issue of Avengers that Steve does remember Thor.

Never having been much a fan of Odin, I actually like the fact that the women of Asgard are coming to the forefront and looking to create their own Stark Resilient (er, Asgardia), though I would have wanted Sif to have been given a more prominent role. To be sure, Sif will have a lot on her mind once she finds out she's been knocking-boots with Ulik, but still...

As for Thor, he's apparently about to get munched-on by the Demogorge and it'd be a great story if Greg Pak and Fred Van Lente hadn't already gone this route in the Incredible Hercules. Thor is obviously going to slug himself out of whatever underworld trouble he's in in order to make certain he actually headlines his own book by the time the Avengers movie is released.

Ferry's art is interesting in that after doing the last few issues of Thor and a Point One issue, I still can't decide if I like it or not. There are some bits that look great, some of it that looks rushed (okay, it looks pretty rushed this issue) and some of it that looks cartoony. At gun-point, I'd probably have to say I like Ferry's art in the sense that he's a bit like Chris Bachalo in that you can easily imagine Ferry drawing a Vertigo book.

Incidentally, in case you're wondering what that World Seed was that Galactus and the Asgards were fighting over, I direct your attention to the back-up story that Jon Hickman penned and Leinil Yu pencilled over in Fantastic Four # 600: *** SPOILER: it's an un-birthed Galactus!!***

That just sort of blew my mind and re-affirmed that Marvel has a comic book genius in Hickman.

That said, I have to say that it's interesting that it actually takes TWO writers (Gillen and now Hickman) to clean up Fraction's messes.

So, apparently, what we weren't quite told in the first six issues of the Mighty Thor is that Galactus didn't actually want to sate his insatiable hunger. He just wanted to be around to witness the Universe's Heat Death.

[Gamma Burst]

Just read it and it was great. Fraction's best issue by far, imo.

[mausi12]

Loki and three witchs that was a good scene

[vitruvian]

If it's all the Nine Worlds, where are Hela and the dead of Hel? Hel, or at least Niflheim in which it resides (again, according to JiM), is one of those worlds, after all. So is Svartalfheim, which is shown still separate just this week in Fraction's own Invincible Iron Man, although now it's home to the dwarves rather than to Malekith's Dark Elves.

Loki asks Jane if anybody remembers Thor... guess he doesn't know he just needs to pop over to NYC and talk to the Avengers as written by Bendis.

Also, was it just me, or did that not look at all like Ulik?

http://images.wikia.com/marveldatabase/images/6/63/Ulik_001.jpg

Also, the Surfer has never been able to hold a galaxy in the palm of his hand, and finally.... fundament? Fundament, Fraction?

http://www.demotivationalposters.org/image/demotivational-poster/0912/that-word-inigo-montoya-word-think-means-princess-bride-mand-demotivational-poster-1260739585.jpg

Perhaps the word you were reaching for is firmament.

Meantime, good issue overall, but these little things are certainly a pain in the fundament.

[mausi12]

If it's all the Nine Worlds, where are Hela and the dead of Hel? Hel, or at least Niflheim in which it resides (again, according to JiM), is one of those worlds, after all. So is Svartalfheim, which is shown still separate just this week in Fraction's own Invincible Iron Man, although now it's home to the dwarves rather than to Malekith's Dark Elves.

Loki asks Jane if anybody remembers Thor... guess he doesn't know he just needs to pop over to NYC and talk to the Avengers as written by Bendis.

Also, was it just me, or did that not look at all like Ulik?

http://images.wikia.com/marveldatabase/images/6/63/Ulik_001.jpg

Also, the Surfer has never been able to hold a galaxy in the palm of his hand, and finally.... fundament? Fundament, Fraction?

http://www.demotivationalposters.org/image/demotivational-poster/0912/that-word-inigo-montoya-word-think-means-princess-bride-mand-demotivational-poster-1260739585.jpg

Perhaps the word you were reaching for is firmament.

Meantime, good issue overall, but these little things are certainly a pain in the fundament.
He is now sif boyfriend hahaha:biggrin:
Loki is so cute he knows that is not his brother:smile:

[jackolover]

Well, this didn't go the way I thought. Karnilla? This is why nobody remembers Thor? And Ulik is Tanarus in disguise? And Karnilla can put it over the All-Mothers? Is this something she did to Odin as well? Too many questions are invoked in this one book. I much rather the mystery of Tanarus before this issue. It makes that appearance of Tanarus in Fear Itself #7 look cheap.

We are told in the preamble that the scar in Thors side is what Thor disappeared into, and we couldn't figure this out from the story itself? I was wondering when that scar was going to be brought up, and here it is now. Thor is in this mystery dimension chained up and ready for a meal in the stomach of the Demi-gorge.

Already I'm bored with this turn of events. Ulik is going to what? Launch another attack on Asgardia, again.

But the All-Mothers republic sounds interesting. I wonder how this will work? Do all the Asgardians sit around in a council like the Roman Empire and debate the merits of every decision made,and the the All-Mothers just stand up and say, "No. We'll do it this way" like Caesar? And unless Asgardia has this sweeping army running continual campaigns, the city will be a sitting duck every minute of it's life, as Karnilla has just testified. There would still have to be a big stick in there somewhere.

[superchick]

Loki asks Jane if anybody remembers Thor... guess he doesn't know he just needs to pop over to NYC and talk to the Avengers as written by Bendis.

He asks Donald, not Jane. Donald has just walked in on the grossness of the balding middle aged creep creeping on Jane. Since when did that start? She goes from kicking him in the nads to that in something like 3 issues? Its Keith fracking Kincaid all over again. Why can't they just keep the girl single, or at least give her an appealing love interest? I'm irrationally furious, but damn why leave her with losers? :evilangry:

This is worse than Sif doing Ulik at least with that their is no possibility of it sticking at all. This is just another piece of crap on the conveyer belt of Jane's life. Can we kill this guy? Gruesomely? With no mercy? Like vaporising him so only his bifocals are left?

[mausi12]

what you think how thor will come back
I think Loki brings him back with magic

[superchick]

Jane's creepy new guy looks like William H Macy. What a dreamboat.

[chetes]

William H Macy is awesome and more than Jane's bland tush would deserve imo.

[superchick]

William H Macy is awesome and more than Jane's bland tush would deserve imo.

You may have sexy fantasies about him, that's your business. :eek:

The facts remain
-When we first meet him Volstagg has to tell him to stop thinking with his dick. What a first impression!
-He's only appeared 3 times (?) and now he and Jane are in a relationship, what the hell? Although that would be more than Keith got before she was married off to him like a sacrificial lamb.
-We haven't seen them even go on a date yet. But he's bringing her her lunch like he's staying over?
-He looks like this guy:
http://i40.tinypic.com/35luvdh.jpg

Could you see him and Natalie Portman (for argument's sake) dating?

[KurtW95]

Was that new guy with Jane the 616 version of Erik Selvig?

[superchick]

Was that new guy with Jane the 616 version of Erik Selvig?

He's called Erik Selvong, draw your own conclusions. But if so, someone read that movie completely wrong! :tongue:

[TheDonAbides]

A fundament, truv, is an underlying theory. And an anus. A firmament is the heavens, yes. He called it what he did for a reason. But you won't care either way, so let's cal the whole thing off.

[mausi12]

http://oi44.tinypic.com/9arey9.jpg
Tanarus vs kid loki
without his brother, it looks bad
I'm curious what loki is going to do against Tanarus

[Gamma Burst]

A fundament, truv, is an underlying theory. And an anus. A firmament is the heavens, yes. He called it what he did for a reason. But you won't care either way, so let's cal the whole thing off.

Yeah, i couldn't see the problem with the word 'fudament' too.

[vitruvian]

A fundament, truv, is an underlying theory. And an anus. A firmament is the heavens, yes. He called it what he did for a reason. But you won't care either way, so let's cal the whole thing off.

It wasn't an underlying theory of the universe that shifted with the chopping of the World Tree, but the universe itself. The map is not the territory. Therefore, I stand by my Inigo Montoya quote wholeheartedly, and maintain that this was simply a mistake. But then, you would probably try to argue somehow that it was on purpose if a writer mistook horde for hoard, or noisome for noisy, or the singular millenium for the plural millenia*, which Fraction has in fact done.

*Actually, this should be millennium and millennia. I've been infected!

[Mutant God]

So is Jane back with Keith and their son

[TheDonAbides]

It wasn't an underlying theory of the universe that shifted with the chopping of the World Tree, but the universe itself. The map is not the territory. Therefore, I stand by my Inigo Montoya quote wholeheartedly, and maintain that this was simply a mistake. But then, you would probably try to argue somehow that it was on purpose if a writer mistook horde for hoard, or noisome for noisy, or the singular millenium for the plural millenia*, which Fraction has in fact done.

*Actually, this should be millennium and millennia. I've been infected!

Oh, I won't argue. I don't care. You simply didn't deign yourself to realise that a word had more than one definition.

[Trey]

This issue was awesome, good job Frac....he who shall not be named.

best art from Ferry definately helped.


Also, Sif has not slept with Tanarus/Ulik. i dont see what everyone is talking about.

The mind spell just happened.

Love the Demogorge redesign.

[maniacmatt]

Loved this issue. Fraction really impressed me this week with this and Iron Man. My thoughts on this issue (sorry if they seem a bit disjointed, this is copied from my notes on the issue for an upcoming podcast):

Fraction is playing with big ideas this issue as the All-mothers plan a revolution, Loki searches for lost memories, the Silver Surfer gets a job, and witches do witchy things. The only misstep here is the revelation of Tanarus's identity so soon. I'd have liked to see the mystery drawn out a bit longer so that the reader might have had a chance to piece together the answer. However, it's a small complaint in an otherwise intriguing issue.

The All-Mothers deciding the traditionally patriarchal monarchy of Asgard into a republic of Asgardia is a fascinating idea. Fraction is also setting up an interesting dichotomy between the three old witches who have aspects of the traditional maiden/mother/crone trinity, and also seeing the same elements present in the much more attractive All-Mothers. The former are outcasts who live outside the city, and are hideous, but seem to know the truth of Thor while the latter is at the center of the city, and are beautiful, yet know nothing of the truth. Fascinating stuff.

[Gamma Burst]

Loved this issue. Fraction really impressed me this week with this and Iron Man. My thoughts on this issue (sorry if they seem a bit disjointed, this is copied from my notes on the issue for an upcoming podcast):

Fraction is playing with big ideas this issue as the All-mothers plan a revolution, Loki searches for lost memories, the Silver Surfer gets a job, and witches do witchy things. The only misstep here is the revelation of Tanarus's identity so soon. I'd have liked to see the mystery drawn out a bit longer so that the reader might have had a chance to piece together the answer. However, it's a small complaint in an otherwise intriguing issue.

The All-Mothers deciding the traditionally patriarchal monarchy of Asgard into a republic of Asgardia is a fascinating idea. Fraction is also setting up an interesting dichotomy between the three old witches who have aspects of the traditional maiden/mother/crone trinity, and also seeing the same elements present in the much more attractive All-Mothers. The former are outcasts who live outside the city, and are hideous, but seem to know the truth of Thor while the latter is at the center of the city, and are beautiful, yet know nothing of the truth. Fascinating stuff.

Gotta agree with you. Iron Man was also pretty good!

[vitruvian]

Loved this issue. Fraction really impressed me this week with this and Iron Man. My thoughts on this issue (sorry if they seem a bit disjointed, this is copied from my notes on the issue for an upcoming podcast):

Fraction is playing with big ideas this issue as the All-mothers plan a revolution, Loki searches for lost memories, the Silver Surfer gets a job, and witches do witchy things. The only misstep here is the revelation of Tanarus's identity so soon. I'd have liked to see the mystery drawn out a bit longer so that the reader might have had a chance to piece together the answer. However, it's a small complaint in an otherwise intriguing issue.

The All-Mothers deciding the traditionally patriarchal monarchy of Asgard into a republic of Asgardia is a fascinating idea. Fraction is also setting up an interesting dichotomy between the three old witches who have aspects of the traditional maiden/mother/crone trinity, and also seeing the same elements present in the much more attractive All-Mothers. The former are outcasts who live outside the city, and are hideous, but seem to know the truth of Thor while the latter is at the center of the city, and are beautiful, yet know nothing of the truth. Fascinating stuff.

There are some issues with the idea of such a republic - are frost giants and dark elves and dwarves and trolls and so on going to have the same right to representation in Asgardia as the Aesir and Vanir? Or are they going to be relegated to second-class citizens?

[maniacmatt]

There are some issues with the idea of such a republic - are frost giants and dark elves and dwarves and trolls and so on going to have the same right to representation in Asgardia as the Aesir and Vanir? Or are they going to be relegated to second-class citizens?

That's why the idea fascinates me so much. We see republics and democracies held up as paragons of government so often, I hope to see this attempt crash and burn a bit. I can't see how the Aesir would go for it at all, and if the All-Mothers do it without their consent, I can see them relegating the other creatures to second class anyway, in much the same way that African Americans were after the Emancipation Proclomation. Lots of possibilities here.

[Wren]

That's why the idea fascinates me so much. We see republics and democracies held up as paragons of government so often, I hope to see this attempt crash and burn a bit. I can't see how the Aesir would go for it at all, and if the All-Mothers do it without their consent, I can see them relegating the other creatures to second class anyway, in much the same way that African Americans were after the Emancipation Proclomation. Lots of possibilities here.Didn't some of these species used to be enemies? Not only with the Asgardians but with each other? Is there a reason they're not going back to their homes? Plus there's got to be a lot of them if they previously occupied 9 planets, hard to believe they're all squeezing into one ruined city.
It just seems like kind of a strange situation overall...

Plus I thought the 3 weird women were the Norns, and Kelda (who went out into the desert looking for Bill) is not one of them... Also doesn't she hate Loki for killing her lover?
Similarly All-Mother, all of whom have been mentioned and appeared before, but not as a triumvirate (I think?). They're cool concepts but they're just being shoe-horned in.

I liked the issue but these sudden changes do kind of annoy me.

[jackolover]

That's why the idea fascinates me so much. We see republics and democracies held up as paragons of government so often, I hope to see this attempt crash and burn a bit. I can't see how the Aesir would go for it at all, and if the All-Mothers do it without their consent, I can see them relegating the other creatures to second class anyway, in much the same way that African Americans were after the Emancipation Proclomation. Lots of possibilities here.

Karnilla has already used her pressure group. So has the Elf King by locating Ulik. Maybe all this intrigue is just maneuvering on the political floor. Hela should begin her campaign soon too, and Surtur also.

[allwillbemine]

If this wasn't $3.99 I'd really like to read about Ulik. I can't believe that's the big reveal! I love it! But... that price tag.

I stand behind this idea. I'll trade wait this one.

[vitruvian]

Karnilla has already used her pressure group. So has the Elf King by locating Ulik. Maybe all this intrigue is just maneuvering on the political floor. Hela should begin her campaign soon too, and Surtur also.

Elf King? We saw the troll king Geirrodur, but not any elf kings that I recall.

[Gamma Burst]

Elf King? We saw the troll king Geirrodur, but not any elf kings that I recall.

He probably meant Troll king.

[Rheged]

Karnilla! Yessss!

[maniacmatt]

Didn't some of these species used to be enemies? Not only with the Asgardians but with each other? Is there a reason they're not going back to their homes? Plus there's got to be a lot of them if they previously occupied 9 planets, hard to believe they're all squeezing into one ruined city.
It just seems like kind of a strange situation overall...

Plus I thought the 3 weird women were the Norns, and Kelda (who went out into the desert looking for Bill) is not one of them... Also doesn't she hate Loki for killing her lover?
Similarly All-Mother, all of whom have been mentioned and appeared before, but not as a triumvirate (I think?). They're cool concepts but they're just being shoe-horned in.

I liked the issue but these sudden changes do kind of annoy me.

Not every creature in the nine realms is there. Just those that choose to be.
This is the same group of three that we see in Mighty Thor #4 where Loki refers to Kelda as Helda, and she refers to herself as one of the weird sisters. We haven't yet seen how she came to be one of them, but the loss of Bill has clearly driven her mad. Like I said earlier, the weird sisters are an inversion of the maiden/mother/crone triumvirate, so Kelda-or Helda-is the inversion of the pure maiden. She has been driven insane by the desire for a man she can never have.

[jackolover]

Elf King? We saw the troll king Geirrodur, but not any elf kings that I recall.


He probably meant Troll king.

He probably did, yes.

[superchick]

So is Jane back with Keith and their son

LOL No. We just got rid of that crap. This creepy Eric Selvong guy seems to be staying over, when she only met the guy a few issues ago. My paranoia is kicking in. Kincaid was around for 3 issues before they married her off (while she had amnesia) to him and he lingered like a bad smell for decades. Selvong seems like Kincaid part 2.



Also, Sif has not slept with Tanarus/Ulik. i dont see what everyone is talking about.

The mind spell just happened.


The mind spell never 'just happened', its clearly been a few days at least since Tanarus started living Thor's life. Sif thinks that this is the guy she's always been with, why wouldn't she sleep with him?

[mausi12]

Eric Selvong He's too old for jane

poor jane:frown:

[mausi12]

LOL No. We just got rid of that crap. This creepy Eric Selvong guy seems to be staying over, when she only met the guy a few issues ago. My paranoia is kicking in. Kincaid was around for 3 issues before they married her off (while she had amnesia) to him and he lingered like a bad smell for decades. Selvong seems like Kincaid part 2.



The mind spell never 'just happened', its clearly been a few days at least since Tanarus started living Thor's life. Sif thinks that this is the guy she's always been with, why wouldn't she sleep with him?

maybe she gets pregnant from Tanaris
maybe she gets her son Uller from Norse mythology
that would be interesting:wink:

[superchick]

Eric Selvong He's too old for jane

poor jane:frown:

I don't get why they would do it. No one gives a damn about stories where Jane is dating other guys. People who like Jane don't want it, people who don't like Jane don't care. Its a waste of space when she could be doing something interesting.

It reminds me of the horrific Jane stories of the late 70's- late 90's where Jane would be written as a great character personality wise but given the most awful stories solely written to fob her off on other guys. There is no one who wants to read that especially as these relationships are never developed, they are just there because a writer needs it for another character. (usually Sif, now Donald)

There is a lot to like about Fraction's Jane. I have the inkling Marvel and Fraction have just decided to import 'The Mighty Avenger' Jane to the 616. Which is fine because 'The Mighty Avenger' Jane was a morph of Lee and Jurgens' Jane anyway. The cutesy-ness was new, and that is coming through too. But if that is all they have learned from that great story, they are neglecting the heart and soul of that book.

There is a little saving grace, 'The Medical Offices of Foster and Blake'. Her name comes first, darn right!

[USERNAME TAKEN]

I was a little underwhelmed by the Tanarus revelation.

I was also disturbed by seeing Jane with Eric. I mean what the...

[superchick]

I was a little underwhelmed by the Tanarus revelation.

I was also disturbed by seeing Jane with Eric. I mean what the...

Keith Kincaid part 2 I tell ya!

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/5586/504840-ki1_large.jpg

They are seriously taking the idea that Jane loves guys no matter what they look like a bit far. Jane loved Donald as a person but was clearly more sexually attracted to Thor. Her attraction to Kincaid was a side effect of her Odin-induced Amnesia where she subconsciously connected him to the man she really loved, Donald which was Odin's intention. Its not like she has a 'type' with these men.

We've seen no reason Jane would be interested in this Selvong guy at all, or why she would move in on him so quickly. She goes from kicking him in the scrotum to holding his hand in two issues, to seemingly sleeping with him and getting called 'sweetheart' the next time we see her and that much time has not passed.

If he was drawn to be attractive, it would make more sense. Fact of life there guys. :tongue:

[mausi12]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv57k5C4Zz1qi6zcz.png
Even when Tanarus says little brother to Loki
loki threatens to kill him, he’s fiercely loyal to Thor.
He has not forgotten his brother
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv57uaNGUM1qi6zcz.png
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv57uaNGUM1qi6zcz.png

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv58vpHv2h1qi6zcz.png
karnilla has great hair

[Gamma Burst]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv58vpHv2h1qi6zcz.png
karnilla has great hair

She has never looked better, imo.:smile:

[mausi12]

She has never looked better, imo.:smile:
yes she looks good:smile:

[superchick]

Karnilla looked great. Idunn needs a shirt, I know she's meant to be the sexual maiden one but they're all sexy she doesn't need to expose almost her entire chest.

Also, I thought that was Kelda, so why was she called Helda? Where did her hypocrisy come from?

[vitruvian]

She has never looked better, imo.:smile:

Wonder if she still wants Balder. If Surtur got out of Limbo, shouldn't be too difficult to retrieve her old beau.

[Charlie_1981]

I am surprised about this whole Tanarus thing and the fact that it has been revealed so fast, I'm glad to see again Karnilla the Norn Queen after all this time and I feel sad that Amora the Enchantress continues totally missing, I wonder, if Amora appears, if she will be decisive to solve all this mess?

[Gamma Burst]

Wonder if she still wants Balder. If Surtur got out of Limbo, shouldn't be too difficult to retrieve her old beau.

I was thinking about that too...

[mausi12]

I am surprised about this whole Tanarus thing and the fact that it has been revealed so fast, I'm glad to see again Karnilla the Norn Queen after all this time and I feel sad that Amora the Enchantress continues totally missing, I wonder, if Amora appears, if she will be decisive to solve all this mess?

I think Loki is going to her for help
she is a powerful magician:smile:

[Chris McFeely]

Hell, I'm trying to remember when an established Thor villain other than Loki last DID ANYTHING, and I'm having to think back to halfway through the Jurgens run to come up with any examples. So that fact alone has me very jazzed at Ulik, Karnilla and Geirrodur's appearances here.

[Rheged]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv58vpHv2h1qi6zcz.png


She looks wonderful! Thank god they got rid of the fishnets! I mean, WTF?



Wonder if she still wants Balder. If Surtur got out of Limbo, shouldn't be too difficult to retrieve her old beau.

YES! I'd love for that to happen. It would be great if that was her end goal. With Kelda's motivation being Bill, if Karnilla is seeking Balder, then this trio could be the Love Gone Bad ladies. And if Jane is stuck with Eric, then she can join too. Cause that's definitely another WTF?

[allwillbemine]

I read it, and if you can't tell from my avatar and sig, I totally loved it. I read it three times straight through. Picked out something new every time.

I really hope Fraction doesn't kill off Ulik when all this is over. :frown:

[Gamma Burst]

I read it, and if you can't tell from my avatar and sig, I totally loved it. I read it three times straight through. Picked out something new every time.

I really hope Fraction doesn't kill off Ulik when all this is over. :frown:

I really enjoyed it too.
I don't think Ulik will die, but i can see him getting very pissed off when Thor comes back to reclaim his God of Thunder title.:cool:

[allwillbemine]

I really enjoyed it too.
I don't think Ulik will die, but i can see him getting very pissed off when Thor comes back to reclaim his God of Thunder title.:cool:

Yeah, its going to be a thrown down I can't wait to watch.

Its funny, but looking back at the promotional material for Tanarus, its so obvious he's Ulik. His legs are short and bent like a troll's and his face is very much like Ulik's. I can't believe no one called it.

[Gamma Burst]

Indeed...I really didn't think about him at all.

[allwillbemine]

I totally wrote Marvel off completely until I read #8! I saw the headlines about Tanarus, but I've been thinking almost completely about DC lately.

Again, though, Marvel- lower your prices!!!

[samson3191]

Very solid issue...gonna renew my subscription to Thor again after this!

[Blackknight75]

Loved this issue. Fraction really impressed me this week with this and Iron Man. My thoughts on this issue (sorry if they seem a bit disjointed, this is copied from my notes on the issue for an upcoming podcast):

Fraction is playing with big ideas this issue as the All-mothers plan a revolution, Loki searches for lost memories, the Silver Surfer gets a job, and witches do witchy things. The only misstep here is the revelation of Tanarus's identity so soon. I'd have liked to see the mystery drawn out a bit longer so that the reader might have had a chance to piece together the answer. However, it's a small complaint in an otherwise intriguing issue.

The All-Mothers deciding the traditionally patriarchal monarchy of Asgard into a republic of Asgardia is a fascinating idea. Fraction is also setting up an interesting dichotomy between the three old witches who have aspects of the traditional maiden/mother/crone trinity, and also seeing the same elements present in the much more attractive All-Mothers. The former are outcasts who live outside the city, and are hideous, but seem to know the truth of Thor while the latter is at the center of the city, and are beautiful, yet know nothing of the truth. Fascinating stuff.

So once Stark Resiliant has finished rebuilding Asgard/Asgardia, what happens next? We still have the problem of a foreign city sitting right in the middle of the United States of America. Will Asgardia declare itself a soveriegn nation and take the state of Oklahoma with it? Or will it go back to floating above the US? Or will it move to another location? Slorenia? Genosha? Tibet? Blue Area of the Moon?

[Will.S]

Read this in the shop and for a Fraction Thor book it was surprisingly good, he definitely fits in quite a bit of material into 20 pages.

Heimdall's interaction with the All Mothers was well done, Volstagg gets a fun scene, and I especially liked the Ulik/Tanarus reveal. I also liked seeing Karnilla back, she's been missing from the book for what felt like forever and heck even the Thor stuff at the end was intriguing. Pascual's art was quite good too, it seems like Frank D'Armata's colors are really making it work better than Matt Hollingsworth (who did a good job too) since the book looks and feels a lot brighter. I just hope Fraction can keep up the pacing and quality of the book, he has a tendency to start strong and then kind of drag things out too far along with an occasional rushed ending or two.

All in all it's certainly a big improvement over Fraction's previous Thor work so I'd give it a 8.5/10. It's weird that the moment I decided to drop the book it actually got pretty good again but at this point I'm still a little wary of Matt's consistency and unless I can get the Thor issues at some extreme discount I'm going to just trade wait it.

[Gamma Burst]

Balder didn't interact with the All Mother. Heimdall did.

[Will.S]

Balder didn't interact with the All Mother. Heimdall did.
Oops, my mistake.

Somehow I mixed the two up.

[Rheged]

So once Stark Resiliant has finished rebuilding Asgard/Asgardia, what happens next? We still have the problem of a foreign city sitting right in the middle of the United States of America. Will Asgardia declare itself a soveriegn nation and take the state of Oklahoma with it? Or will it go back to floating above the US? Or will it move to another location? Slorenia? Genosha? Tibet? Blue Area of the Moon?

You didn't read Fraction's X-Men run, did you? Sovereignty of nations doesn't apply to the US, only to "nations" that choose to suddenly declare themselves nations within the US borders. If Fraction handles Asgardia and their new 'republic' like he did Utopia, just put away any questions like that and prepare to be frustratingly underwhelmed.

[vitruvian]

So once Stark Resiliant has finished rebuilding Asgard/Asgardia, what happens next? We still have the problem of a foreign city sitting right in the middle of the United States of America. Will Asgardia declare itself a soveriegn nation and take the state of Oklahoma with it? Or will it go back to floating above the US? Or will it move to another location? Slorenia? Genosha? Tibet? Blue Area of the Moon?

The US government already declared itself as fine with Asgard/Asgardia sitting as a small extraterritorial enclave there in Oklahoma (no, not taking over the whole state) as they are with Utopia sitting as a sovereign nation in US territorial waters. Happened during Stark's tenure as big boss. All of Osborn's actions against Asgard were unsanctioned and rogue in nature.

At least Asgard tends to feed hard currency (actual gold coin and bullion) into the local economy, and honestly they're a target for attacks less frequently than Utopia is, with a much smaller American population nearby to serve as collateral damage.

[maniacmatt]

The US government already declared itself as fine with Asgard/Asgardia sitting as a small extraterritorial enclave there in Oklahoma (no, not taking over the whole state) as they are with Utopia sitting as a sovereign nation in US territorial waters. Happened during Stark's tenure as big boss. All of Osborn's actions against Asgard were unsanctioned and rogue in nature.

At least Asgard tends to feed hard currency (actual gold coin and bullion) into the local economy, and honestly they're a target for attacks less frequently than Utopia is, with a much smaller American population nearby to serve as collateral damage.

That, and the way Stark justified it to the president was pretty much "if we try to move them, they'll kick our asses." :biggrin:

[vitruvian]

That, and the way Stark justified it to the president was pretty much "if we try to move them, they'll kick our asses." :biggrin:

Much the same reason they recognized a sovereign nation in SF Bay, really.

[BooCoo]

Loved this issue. Fraction really impressed me this week with this and Iron Man. My thoughts on this issue (sorry if they seem a bit disjointed, this is copied from my notes on the issue for an upcoming podcast):

Fraction is playing with big ideas this issue as the All-mothers plan a revolution, Loki searches for lost memories, the Silver Surfer gets a job, and witches do witchy things. The only misstep here is the revelation of Tanarus's identity so soon. I'd have liked to see the mystery drawn out a bit longer so that the reader might have had a chance to piece together the answer. However, it's a small complaint in an otherwise intriguing issue.

The All-Mothers deciding the traditionally patriarchal monarchy of Asgard into a republic of Asgardia is a fascinating idea. Fraction is also setting up an interesting dichotomy between the three old witches who have aspects of the traditional maiden/mother/crone trinity, and also seeing the same elements present in the much more attractive All-Mothers. The former are outcasts who live outside the city, and are hideous, but seem to know the truth of Thor while the latter is at the center of the city, and are beautiful, yet know nothing of the truth. Fascinating stuff.

And did they try to "blow up" the surfer into this big cosmic muckamuck with that speech? Give me a break, prior to Galactus transforming him, he was just a shmuck from another planet that sacrified himself to be a herald. And Demogorge doesn't eat dead gods, only those whose energies are failing. Why isn't Thor in Hel? This book has interesting elements but is starting to be all over the place with stuff. Kelda still acting like a silly schoolgirl over this great "love" of Bill. What kind of goddesses are these in this series? If she were a male they'd never make her act so ridiculous over lost love. She's either incredibly weak or incredibly sheltered. Frigga never went 'desert hag' when she lost Odin. Kelda's life so empty she can do nothing but grieve for a mortal she knew only a short time?

I'm tired of the Broxton thing. Enough with Asgardians stuck on earth. It's boring and going nowhere. Good to see Karnilla back in the mix...kind of wondered what those sneaky Norns were up to.

[superchick]

And did they try to "blow up" the surfer into this big cosmic muckamuck with that speech? Give me a break, prior to Galactus transforming him, he was just a shmuck from another planet that sacrified himself to be a herald. And Demogorge doesn't eat dead gods, only those whose energies are failing. Why isn't Thor in Hel? This book has interesting elements but is starting to be all over the place with stuff. Kelda still acting like a silly schoolgirl over this great "love" of Bill. What kind of goddesses are these in this series? If she were a male they'd never make her act so ridiculous over lost love. She's either incredibly weak or incredibly sheltered. Frigga never went 'desert hag' when she lost Odin. Kelda's life so empty she can do nothing but grieve for a mortal she knew only a short time?

I'm tired of the Broxton thing. Enough with Asgardians stuck on earth. It's boring and going nowhere. Good to see Karnilla back in the mix...kind of wondered what those sneaky Norns were up to.

The Broxton angle hasn't been explored nearly enough. Its a lot better than Asgard getting stranded on its own elsewhere, completely isolated from the marvel universe.

All people are different, why should we expect all Gods to be the same? Kelda lost the love of her life and can't handle it. Its a beautiful story in a way because the tragedy is so epic. If he were another god we could yawn and say he'll be back again but he's not. I don't think the gods really understand that kind of loss and its driving Kelda mad. Look at her hypocrisy. Loki should accept his loss and stop being selfish she says, while trying to bring her dead lover back from Valhalla and ignoring the state of Asgardia.

[Will.S]

I'm tired of the Broxton thing. Enough with Asgardians stuck on earth. It's boring and going nowhere. Good to see Karnilla back in the mix...kind of wondered what those sneaky Norns were up to.

I don't mind it that much, I just wished Fraction did something with it outside of just being some sort of refuge amongst a pile of rubble.

[Gamma Burst]

The Broxton angle hasn't been explored nearly enough. Its a lot better than Asgard getting stranded on its own elsewhere, completely isolated from the marvel universe.

All people are different, why should we expect all Gods to be the same? Kelda lost the love of her life and can't handle it. Its a beautiful story in a way because the tragedy is so epic. If he were another god we could yawn and say he'll be back again but he's not. I don't think the gods really understand that kind of loss and its driving Kelda mad. Look at her hypocrisy. Loki should accept his loss and stop being selfish she says, while trying to bring her dead lover back from Valhalla and ignoring the state of Asgardia.

That's how I see it too.

[maniacmatt]

And did ... up to.

I'm not entirely sure why I was quoted there.


The Broxton angle hasn't been explored nearly enough. Its a lot better than Asgard getting stranded on its own elsewhere, completely isolated from the marvel universe.

All people are different, why should we expect all Gods to be the same? Kelda lost the love of her life and can't handle it. Its a beautiful story in a way because the tragedy is so epic. If he were another god we could yawn and say he'll be back again but he's not. I don't think the gods really understand that kind of loss and its driving Kelda mad. Look at her hypocrisy. Loki should accept his loss and stop being selfish she says, while trying to bring her dead lover back from Valhalla and ignoring the state of Asgardia.

I totally agree. I'm really intrigued by Kelda's story so far, and think it's one of the best subplots of the JMS run. I'm liking where Fraction is taking it too.

[jackolover]

That, and the way Stark justified it to the president was pretty much "if we try to move them, they'll kick our asses." :biggrin:



Much the same reason they recognized a sovereign nation in SF Bay, really.



Makes Monty's argument that the MU, US government, have no real power and are there in a token capacity.

[allwillbemine]

Makes Monty's argument that the MU, US government, have no real power and are there in a token capacity.

How else could it act? None of the superheroes are shown sharing technology that would allow it to make mutants think twice before threatening the government. Or the Avengers. Or the Asgardians. I think they have to admit they're just people who's job it to try and make sure everyone else gets along.

[vitruvian]

Makes Monty's argument that the MU, US government, have no real power and are there in a token capacity.


How else could it act? None of the superheroes are shown sharing technology that would allow it to make mutants think twice before threatening the government. Or the Avengers. Or the Asgardians. I think they have to admit they're just people who's job it to try and make sure everyone else gets along.

No, that's all overstating it by quite a bit. SHIELD and other government-sponsored organizations have been very effective at times, and government-produced Sentinels have been shown to be credible threats to mutants and other superhumans (especially in certain alternate or potential futures, e.g. Days of Future Past). The US government has quite a bit of effective and real power in the MU when it chooses to exercise it.

It's just that it's not chosen to exercise it against Asgard or Utopia, as is probably wise. After all, neither power actually wants to harm or threaten the US (except possibly in the sense of having deterrent power), each could serve as a powerful ally, and the amount of territory effectively ceded in each case is not much larger than what becomes extraterritorial in the case of an embassy compound.

If the full weight of the US military, including things like SHIELD helicarriers and supertech and Sentinels and Hulkbuster units, were brought to bear against either one, well, we've pretty much seen in both Siege and Schism that such efforts would not necessarily be fruitless, although they would be costly. The better question is whether such an effort would be worth it against parties that don't actually present a threat to national security so long as they're left alone. The rational answer is, of course, no. Perhaps the one up side of the amount of government corruption shown in the MU is this surprising level of rationality on this type of matter. Well, that, and figuring out that invading Latveria, at least when Doom himself is in residence, would be too costly an undertaking as well.

Still, I think Iceland would do well to offer Asgard a fallback position in return for an influx of hard currency in the form of gold bullion.

[jackolover]

No, that's all overstating it by quite a bit. SHIELD and other government-sponsored organizations have been very effective at times, and government-produced Sentinels have been shown to be credible threats to mutants and other superhumans (especially in certain alternate or potential futures, e.g. Days of Future Past). The US government has quite a bit of effective and real power in the MU when it chooses to exercise it.

It's just that it's not chosen to exercise it against Asgard or Utopia, as is probably wise. After all, neither power actually wants to harm or threaten the US (except possibly in the sense of having deterrent power), each could serve as a powerful ally, and the amount of territory effectively ceded in each case is not much larger than what becomes extraterritorial in the case of an embassy compound.

If the full weight of the US military, including things like SHIELD helicarriers and supertech and Sentinels and Hulkbuster units, were brought to bear against either one, well, we've pretty much seen in both Siege and Schism that such efforts would not necessarily be fruitless, although they would be costly. The better question is whether such an effort would be worth it against parties that don't actually present a threat to national security so long as they're left alone. The rational answer is, of course, no. Perhaps the one up side of the amount of government corruption shown in the MU is this surprising level of rationality on this type of matter. Well, that, and figuring out that invading Latveria, at least when Doom himself is in residence, would be too costly an undertaking as well.

Still, I think Iceland would do well to offer Asgard a fallback position in return for an influx of hard currency in the form of gold bullion.

Good idea and a well reasoned reply.

I do remember the What If? for CW where the Thor Clones were used by the government and the Clones took over the world, so there is always the possibility that pulling that switch is like pushing the nuke button. "We may not be incharge, but we'll blow up the world so you can't have it either". Much like Tony Starks doomsday solution that if someone so powerful was to defeat America, he could teleport them into the Negative Zone and the Earth would spin out of orbit because of the loss of mass. You just don't want to go down that road unless you have too, and the mutants and Asgardians haven't forced anyones hand.

But as to being able to unilaterally isolate both the Mutants and Asgardians to secure them, the MU government wouldn't be able to do it. Like trying it with Wakanda in the past, that would have been a mistake as well. (But today? Yes, the US could probably overun Wakanda). Mind you, it is not a preferred state of affairs to have a bunch of Gods on US territory, connected to another 8 worlds of monsters.

[vitruvian]

Good idea and a well reasoned reply.

I do remember the What If? for CW where the Thor Clones were used by the government and the Clones took over the world, so there is always the possibility that pulling that switch is like pushing the nuke button. "We may not be incharge, but we'll blow up the world so you can't have it either". Much like Tony Starks doomsday solution that if someone so powerful was to defeat America, he could teleport them into the Negative Zone and the Earth would spin out of orbit because of the loss of mass. You just don't want to go down that road unless you have too, and the mutants and Asgardians haven't forced anyones hand.

I would still say the Sentinels (and Hounds, etc.) in the Days of Future Past future are a better example than the Clors in that What If?, since we actually have people such as Rachel Summers from that future present in the MU to 'prove' that it's a possible future. There was also a Deathlok from an alternate near future where Roxxon had used dimensional displacement technology to send all the superhumans to other worlds.

Lots of these government 'solutions' don't require blowing up the world much if at all. Which issue was Tony Stark's explanation of that doomsday solution, anyway? Because I want to avoid any writer who thinks losing even a city or small asteroid's worth of mass to another dimension is going to do a thing to the Earth's orbit - that's just stupid.

But otherwise, none of the government's final options are certain, either, so best not to go there unless and until somebody actually forces their hand. Among other things, some superhumans have a pretty good track record of both working for or with the government, and solving situations like Galactus that the government had no plan for.


But as to being able to unilaterally isolate both the Mutants and Asgardians to secure them, the MU government wouldn't be able to do it. Like trying it with Wakanda in the past, that would have been a mistake as well. (But today? Yes, the US could probably overun Wakanda). Mind you, it is not a preferred state of affairs to have a bunch of Gods on US territory, connected to another 8 worlds of monsters.

Isolate? No. But bombing would probably work pretty well, especially with Utopia, but even possibly with Asgard. You don't even need nukes, just a few MOAB each.

[jackolover]

Lots of these government 'solutions' don't require blowing up the world much if at all. Which issue was Tony Stark's explanation of that doomsday solution, anyway? Because I want to avoid any writer who thinks losing even a city or small asteroid's worth of mass to another dimension is going to do a thing to the Earth's orbit - that's just stupid.

Avengers Initiative #19. And it wasn't Stark who thought that, it was the Skrulls who thought it would destroy the planet, and probably my extrapolation thinking it was the mass removal.




Isolate? No. But bombing would probably work pretty well, especially with Utopia, but even possibly with Asgard. You don't even need nukes, just a few MOAB each.

But if they missed taking out Thor, He would make the Military pay and the government would not like what happens next. Thor could teleport anything into another dimension with his Vortex.

[Gamma Burst]

I'll have to look this up. I'll get back to you.




But if they missed taking out Thor, He would make the Military pay and the government would not like what happens next. Thor could teleport anything into another dimension with his Vortex.

Yeah, things would get pretty ugly to them.

[Mikey Brown]

Damn, great issue. Loved the reveal, this is gonna be a great arc. The Silver Surfer stuff was cool as well.

[maniacmatt]

Damn, great issue. Loved the reveal, this is gonna be a great arc. The Silver Surfer stuff was cool as well.

I was actually pleasantly surprised to see him still in Thor. I was expecting those threads to be picked up on in Fraction's Defenders. Cool that he's going to be a supporting character here too. He fits in well.

[Gamma Burst]

I'm curious to see his role when Thor comes back.

[Trey]

That's why the idea fascinates me so much. We see republics and democracies held up as paragons of government so often, I hope to see this attempt crash and burn a bit. I can't see how the Aesir would go for it at all, and if the All-Mothers do it without their consent, I can see them relegating the other creatures to second class anyway, in much the same way that African Americans were after the Emancipation Proclomation. Lots of possibilities here.

The recent For Asgard, by Rodi and Bianchi dealt with this, How Asgard treats the other "race" of the realms.

[Trey]

LOL No. We just got rid of that crap. This creepy Eric Selvong guy seems to be staying over, when she only met the guy a few issues ago. My paranoia is kicking in. Kincaid was around for 3 issues before they married her off (while she had amnesia) to him and he lingered like a bad smell for decades. Selvong seems like Kincaid part 2.



The mind spell never 'just happened', its clearly been a few days at least since Tanarus started living Thor's life. Sif thinks that this is the guy she's always been with, why wouldn't she sleep with him?

No his first appearance and when the spell went into affect was at Thor's funeral.

Its been one day

And if its not on panel or conversation it didn't happen.

[seekquaze]

That's why the idea fascinates me so much. We see republics and democracies held up as paragons of government so often, I hope to see this attempt crash and burn a bit. I can't see how the Aesir would go for it at all, and if the All-Mothers do it without their consent, I can see them relegating the other creatures to second class anyway, in much the same way that African Americans were after the Emancipation Proclomation. Lots of possibilities here.

Another problem would be the Asgardians themselves. Your taking a warrior society that is used to strict classes and chains of command and radically doing away with it. The Asgardian way tends to be to settle things with violence unless Odin or another great power force them to get along. They are not much for talk. You have someone say and the others do. Republics generally involve a lot of debate, campaigning, etc that the Asgardians as a whole are not used to. The closest they have is the Althing, but that has been inconsistent and generally only called either in major peaceful dealings with other races or when the king is not around.

Many times a democracy is more chaotic than a monarchy. The governments of Europe are something of an exception. In many democracies corruption is rampant and political infighting leads to frequent government stalemates if not collapses due to old rivalries. If trying to include the other races that have lived separate for so long you easily run into the same problems.


The recent For Asgard, by Rodi and Bianchi dealt with this, How Asgard treats the other "race" of the realms.

That was a highly isolated story that in no way reflects the way Asgard has been shown treating the other races. in "For Asgard" Asgard had some sort of empire that directly ruled over the nine worlds. The idea of an Asgardian empire is unique to that story. In every other story Asgard rules Asgard and maybe Vaneheim. Jotunheim and Alfheim are separate realms with no evidence they are directly ruled by Asgard. Same with the Dwarven and Dark Elf realms. Asgard is a superpower that might project its might once and a while, but it has never been shown having such views or treating the other races in that manner where it forces its rule upon them.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Best Fraction Thor issue ive read and the best Thor issue ive read since Simonson.

It was good.

[avenging son]

so, did Karnilla pull this over the "All-Mothers" or are they in on it?
it would make sense if they were in on it, they are pretty powerful for her to be able to pull something like this over on.

and is this just revenge for what was allowed to happen to Balder?
you would have to think she would be royally ticked off when she found out how he died (I know I was)

[Trey]

Another problem would be the Asgardians themselves. Your taking a warrior society that is used to strict classes and chains of command and radically doing away with it. The Asgardian way tends to be to settle things with violence unless Odin or another great power force them to get along. They are not much for talk. You have someone say and the others do. Republics generally involve a lot of debate, campaigning, etc that the Asgardians as a whole are not used to. The closest they have is the Althing, but that has been inconsistent and generally only called either in major peaceful dealings with other races or when the king is not around.

Many times a democracy is more chaotic than a monarchy. The governments of Europe are something of an exception. In many democracies corruption is rampant and political infighting leads to frequent government stalemates if not collapses due to old rivalries. If trying to include the other races that have lived separate for so long you easily run into the same problems.



That was a highly isolated story that in no way reflects the way Asgard has been shown treating the other races. in "For Asgard" Asgard had some sort of empire that directly ruled over the nine worlds. The idea of an Asgardian empire is unique to that story. In every other story Asgard rules Asgard and maybe Vaneheim. Jotunheim and Alfheim are separate realms with no evidence they are directly ruled by Asgard. Same with the Dwarven and Dark Elf realms. Asgard is a superpower that might project its might once and a while, but it has never been shown having such views or treating the other races in that manner where it forces its rule upon them.

Asgard has always treated the other races as lesser, seekquaze.

No one is suggesting that Asgard rules over anyone else, I was pointing out that in this story we will see that examination as we saw in For Asgard.

[superchick]

No his first appearance and when the spell went into affect was at Thor's funeral.

Its been one day

And if its not on panel or conversation it didn't happen.

What makes you think its been one day?

Its Thor comics, even things that we see on panel seem not to count anymore! :tongue:

[mausi12]

Another problem would be the Asgardians themselves. Your taking a warrior society that is used to strict classes and chains of command and radically doing away with it. The Asgardian way tends to be to settle things with violence unless or another great power force them to get along. They are not much for talk. You have someone say and the others do. Republics generally involve a lot of debate, campaigning, etc that the Asgardians as a whole are not used to. The closest they have is the Althing, but that has been inconsistent and generally only called either in major peaceful dealings with other races or when the king is not around.

Many times a democracy is more chaotic than a monarchy. The governments of Europe are something of an exception. In many democracies corruption is rampant and political infighting leads to frequent government stalemates if not collapses due to old rivalries. If trying to include the other races that have lived separate for so long you easily run into the same problems.



That was a highly isolated story that in no way reflects the way Asgard has been shown treating the other races. in "For Asgard" Asgard had some sort of empire that directly ruled over the nine worlds. The idea of an Asgardian empire is unique to that story. In every other story Asgard rules Asgard and maybe Vaneheim. Jotunheim and Alfheim are separate realms with no evidence they are directly ruled by Asgard. Same with the Dwarven and Dark Elf realms. Asgard is a superpower that might project its might once and a while, but it has never been shown having such views or treating the other races in that manner where it forces its rule upon them.
odin is the boss of 9 the worlds
they must do what he says or:confused:

[vitruvian]

odin is the boss of 9 the worlds
they must do what he says or:confused:

Not really in the main MU. Asgard has always been at war with the frost giants of Jotunheim, and not ruled over them, for example. That bit in that one mini about an Asgardian empire was not really in tune with what's ever been shown elsewhere.

[mausi12]

Not really in the main MU. Asgard has always been at war with the frost giants of Jotunheim, and not ruled over them, for example. That bit in that one mini about an Asgardian empire was not really in tune with what's ever been shown elsewhere.

odin has killed their king that is it why they hate him or
the frost giants of Jotunheim they are argards greatest enemies

[seekquaze]

Asgard has always treated the other races as lesser, seekquaze.

No one is suggesting that Asgard rules over anyone else, I was pointing out that in this story we will see that examination as we saw in For Asgard.

To a certain extent that is true. It's part of the whole definition of being "gods." If we go by myth (which is about all we can go by) the gods created many of the other races. In one comic story the dwarves admitted they believed Odin created them. Others like giants, trolls and demons have been at war with Asgard for so long that the Asgardians are bound to think ill of them. It's just in the example you selected shows a far more extreme version of the Asgardians directly ruling the other races and outright hostility toward them then elsewhere. Though even in that mini many of the Asgardians were unsettled with treating the other races that way.


odin is the boss of 9 the worlds
they must do what he says or:confused:

Even in myth that is not true. Odin has never ruled Muselphleim, the land of fire nor Niflheim, the land of ice. Jotunheim has always been treated as a constantly hostile power. Hel is a separate power. The dwarves and Dark Elves are often treated as separate powers as well. Odin did rule part of Earth, but gave that up when his worship died out. The only world Odin directly rules over are Asgard, Vaniheim, and maybe Alfheim. The rest is treated more like Asgard is a massive superpower that projects its might into the others from time to time, but Odin is not the king of them.


odin has killed their king that is it why they hate him or
the frost giants of Jotunheim they are argards greatest enemies

The hatred between Asgard and the giants go so far back no one remembers where it started. Jotunheim has rarely if ever been shown having a central authority. It has some kings, but they do not rule over all of it. Generally, any hostilities are started by the frost giants. Whether out of jealousy, desire of conquest, or just spite tend to attack Asgard and are beaten back. Odin and his brothers killed Ymir at one time, but given what we know of Ymir it is more likely Ymir attacked first. We know Asgard was fighting the frost giants as far back as Bor's time.

[mausi12]

To a certain extent that is true. It's part of the whole definition of being "gods." If we go by myth (which is about all we can go by) the gods created many of the other races. In one comic story the dwarves admitted they believed created them. Others like giants, trolls and demons have been at war with Asgard for so long that the Asgardians are bound to think ill of them. It's just in the example you selected shows a far more extreme version of the Asgardians directly ruling the other races and outright hostility toward them then elsewhere. Though even in that mini many of the Asgardians were unsettled with treating the other races that way.



Even in myth that is not true. Odin has never ruled Muselphleim, the land of fire nor Niflheim, the land of ice. Jotunheim has always been treated as a constantly hostile power. Hel is a separate power. The dwarves and Dark Elves are often treated as separate powers as well. Odin did rule part of Earth, but gave that up when his worship died out. The only world Odin directly rules over are Asgard, Vaniheim, and maybe Alfheim. The rest is treated more like Asgard is a massive superpower that projects its might into the others from time to time, but Odin is not the king of them.



The hatred between Asgard and the giants go so far back no one remembers where it started. Jotunheim has rarely if ever been shown having a central authority. It has some kings, but they do not rule over all of it. Generally, any hostilities are started by the frost giants. Whether out of jealousy, desire of conquest, or just spite tend to attack Asgard and are beaten back. Odin and his brothers killed Ymir at one time, but given what we know of Ymir it is more likely Ymir attacked first. We know Asgard was fighting the frost giants as far back as Bor's time.

the frost giants they have no king:confused:
who is their leader

[seekquaze]

the frost giants they have no king:confused:
who is their leader

Frost giant society is usually depicted as very fractured. There is no one giant who rules over all of them. Ymir is rarely if ever depicted in a role of ruler-ship unlike Surtur. Frost giants are usually shown to live in small groups or primitive villages. There are a few giants who command large enough groups to be called kings, but there is no one king or leader

[Jake Fury]

I like where this story is going. I wish the reveal for Tanarus had been held off a little bit longer though. :smile:

[Pixie_Solanas]

The Tanarus reveal was a bit jarring. Why the payoff so early in the run? I think that could have been safely tucked away til much later.

[seekquaze]

The Tanarus reveal was a bit jarring. Why the payoff so early in the run? I think that could have been safely tucked away til much later.

The way Tanarus was originally promoted and Fraction's own writing style I can't help but get the feeling that Fraction changed part of the story to reveal who Tanarus was sooner then he originally intended. Maybe due to internet backlash or poor acceptance of his stories where he drew things out?

[Jake Fury]

The Tanarus reveal was a bit jarring. Why the payoff so early in the run? I think that could have been safely tucked away til much later.

I agree 110%. It was really uncharacteristic of Fraction.

[Punchdrunk]

Gotta say - this issue left me the most optimistic about a Thor arc since Fraction took over and I was beginning to think I was going to have to throw in the towel on my favorite title.

Hope it stays on track - there's a lot of little things that don't make sense to me - the Frigga vs Freya thing is glaring - but the premise seems strong.

[seekquaze]

Gotta say - this issue left me the most optimistic about a Thor arc since Fraction took over and I was beginning to think I was going to have to throw in the towel on my favorite title.

Hope it stays on track - there's a lot of little things that don't make sense to me - the Frigga vs Freya thing is glaring - but the premise seems strong.

This may be me being pessimistic, but isn't that the same for ever Thor arc he has started: World-Eater, Galactus vs Odin, and Fear Itself. They start strong, muddle about halfway through, then have a rushed last issue where people are left scratching their heads? He has great ideas, but they rarely if ever get fully developed and all we are left with are some mumbled explanations and a forced ending.

[Rosebunse]

This may be me being pessimistic, but isn't that the same for ever Thor arc he has started: World-Eater, Galactus vs Odin, and Fear Itself. They start strong, muddle about halfway through, then have a rushed last issue where people are left scratching their heads? He has great ideas, but they rarely if ever get fully developed and all we are left with are some mumbled explanations and a forced ending.

Except for Fear Itself, which I felt started off weak, then got back on its feet towards the end. I think Fraction would do well with a good editor, someone to keep him grounded. But, I hope he pulls this off. When Fraction does write something well, it's pretty good.

[Punchdrunk]

Squeeze - not pessimistic at all - I feel ya.

World Eaters - came out of nowhere with no set up and never found it's feet.

Galactus - got off to a decent start though the characters were way out of whack with odd language choices and SS acting like he had never met Thor before etc. - then got progressively worse.

Fear Itself - OK. Makes little sense with the previous 40 years of the book but not horrible. Lots of loose plot points. Lots of unexplained, unmotivated inconsistent behavior from everyone but the basic conflict was strong enough to make it kind of fun.

Tanarus /All Mother's - one thing working in Fraction's favor here is that he has done so much with Asgard & co. that it's "bent" his way so the continuity doesn't seem so out of left field. It's his world now - making the characters choices less jarring and more continuous.

My one early criticism - this feels an awful lot like his one shot with the Enchantress warping everyone's memory of Skurge in an attempt to bring him back - hope I'm off base with that .

[Monty_Cristo]

Pascual Ferry's one of my favorite artists because of his 90s Heroes for Hire series. but, i gotta say, that i think Tanarus might have been slightly more popular if he had been introduced when Copiel was drawing. Tanarus has a decent enough design. but he's almost too monstrous looking. it's not enough of a contrast between that and Ulik, imo. if he looked like Thor but was just a different hue, i think he would have done a little better.

[Tinder]

What issue was Thor's funeral and Tanarus' first appearance, because reading the last issues of JiM and Thor I was really confused. I don't remember any mention of this spell that made everybody forget about Thor, in fact I don't remember Thor's funeral much at all. So much so that when it got to the big reveal I wasn't sure if it was something I should have already known about, or whether I was supposed to gasp in suprise? Which kind of took the edge off an otherwise great issue.

[seekquaze]

What issue was Thor's funeral and Tanarus' first appearance, because reading the last issues of JiM and Thor I was really confused. I don't remember any mention of this spell that made everybody forget about Thor, in fact I don't remember Thor's funeral much at all. So much so that when it got to the big reveal I wasn't sure if it was something I should have already known about, or whether I was supposed to gasp in suprise? Which kind of took the edge off an otherwise great issue.

Fear Itself #7.2 has all your answers.

[jphamlore]

I called for Karnilla to reappear in the Thor storyline just before Mighty Thor #8 was released and like manna from heaven not only did Fraction bring back this character, but he may have provided an explanation for what this character is and why she at times can wield so much power.

I'm not sure that Karnilla is "impersonating" the Three Witches, I think she may be a manifestation of them.

One of the unifying themes of Fraction (and Gillen) is that the gods have gods, beings of great power and mystery in their dimly remembered past. Given that the All-Mother is somehow three sisters united as one and given that the Disir were the Valkyrie of a previous Bor-led era, I speculate the Three Witches are what is left of the All-Mother of a previous era, and Karnilla is their physical projection into the current age, which is why she is declared in Mighty Thor #8 to be the Queen of the Norns.

Suddenly an excellent explanation appears for why Karnilla has been Balder's stalker for so long, because Balder as in other Marvel incarnations is the link to the World Tree and to other expressions of Asgard in different dimensions.

[Shaka]

I don't get why they would do it. No one gives a damn about stories where Jane is dating other guys. People who like Jane don't want it, people who don't like Jane don't care. Its a waste of space when she could be doing something interesting.

It reminds me of the horrific Jane stories of the late 70's- late 90's where Jane would be written as a great character personality wise but given the most awful stories solely written to fob her off on other guys. There is no one who wants to read that especially as these relationships are never developed, they are just there because a writer needs it for another character. (usually Sif, now Donald)

There is a lot to like about Fraction's Jane. I have the inkling Marvel and Fraction have just decided to import 'The Mighty Avenger' Jane to the 616. Which is fine because 'The Mighty Avenger' Jane was a morph of Lee and Jurgens' Jane anyway. The cutesy-ness was new, and that is coming through too. But if that is all they have learned from that great story, they are neglecting the heart and soul of that book.

There is a little saving grace, 'The Medical Offices of Foster and Blake'. Her name comes first, darn right!

I feel like of all of the classic Silver Age Marvel girlfriends (Gwen Stacy, Mary Jane, Betty Banner, Shalla Bal...) Jane gets the worse treatment

[jphamlore]

I feel like of all of the classic Silver Age Marvel girlfriends (Gwen Stacy, Mary Jane, Betty Banner, Shalla Bal...) Jane gets the worse treatment

This is the first time I have ever heard the claim that in current Marvel lore, Gwen Stacy got better treatment than basically ... any Marvel character.

About Jane Foster, considering the scene after the credits of the Thor movie and considering all of the visual puns of horns and green in the very first issue of Fraction's Thor, I still claim that Eric Solvang has some connection to the old Loki, just like Eric Masterson, the Master's son, had some connection to Thor, although perhaps not a direct one. The old Loki I believe would be quite pleased to have paid Jane Foster more than one visit, just like he threatened in the movie ...

[Shaka]

This is the first time I have ever heard the claim that in current Marvel lore, Gwen Stacy got better treatment than basically ... any Marvel character.

About Jane Foster, considering the scene after the credits of the Thor movie and considering all of the visual puns of horns and green in the very first issue of Fraction's Thor, I still claim that Eric Solvang has some connection to the old Loki, just like Eric Masterson, the Master's son, had some connection to Thor, although perhaps not a direct one. The old Loki I believe would be quite pleased to have paid Jane Foster more than one visit, just like he threatened in the movie ...

Gwen Stacy is beloved though. Jane gets her memories erased, suttled off with old men, etc.... she fades in and out of relevancy.

[jpbl1976]

Gwen Stacy is beloved though. Jane gets her memories erased, suttled off with old men, etc.... she fades in and out of relevancy.

Unfortunately, this is true. No other non-superhero supporting female character has gotten shafted as much as Jane Foster.

[superchick]

This is the first time I have ever heard the claim that in current Marvel lore, Gwen Stacy got better treatment than basically ... any Marvel character.

About Jane Foster, considering the scene after the credits of the Thor movie and considering all of the visual puns of horns and green in the very first issue of Fraction's Thor, I still claim that Eric Solvang has some connection to the old Loki, just like Eric Masterson, the Master's son, had some connection to Thor, although perhaps not a direct one. The old Loki I believe would be quite pleased to have paid Jane Foster more than one visit, just like he threatened in the movie ...

Gwen's a martyr, Jane's been a pariah for 40-something years.

Imagine had Gwen lived and had all her memories of Peter taken away, was sent to another guy not in her right mind while Peter had his mind wiped and sent off to hook up with MJ.

She then disappears for 5 years, comes back and gets her memories before getting shunted off to another dimension for 10 years.

Then she has her memories taken again and married off to a character seen 3 times in the previous 16 years then shuffled off for another 10 years.

She gets her memories back (we don't see it), realises that Peter ditched her for MJ (we don't see it) but she never brings it up to Peter, never calls him on it. She leaves the 3 issue wonder and had Peter flat out refuse to go back to her, in fact he tells someone else he never loved her at all and that it was all just a haze brought on by the spider bite.

She goes back to the three issue wonder (we don't see it, aren't given an explanation, he's never around anyway). She and Peter start working together and flirting like no ones business but nothing ever comes of it because she's trapped with a man she clearly has no interest in.

She divorces three issue wonder when she finds out Peter is back from the dead but he doesn't even see fit to tell her he's alive. When he does show up he's asking if she's seen MJ as he's been looking all over for her. Peter and Gwen then start dating again only for Gwen to be ditched as soon as MJ shows up again.

Gwen may be dead but at least the character has her dignity. Jane for years got rolled out when Thor/Sif was at its roughest so the writer could 'prove' Thor loved Sif by rejecting Jane. And some of it is especially weird as we are explicitly told its months since Thor had been proclaiming to Jane she was the love of his life and that he would never leave her. She went from the love of Thor's life to Thor's first love, to the woman Thor once loved, to someone he dated while under the influence of Donald Blake. While Sif went from old friend to girlfriend, to destined love and first love.

Thor and Jane were better than this, even in the 60's. But between 75-94 you get Jane regressed to a character she never was. Writers start exaggerating the more sexist stuff Stan and Larry wrote while ignoring her humour, her bravery, her intelligence and her sternness. Jane regressed under the pens of writers who didn't much like her or remembered her to be worse than she was. The idea of 'Scared Nurse Jane' never existed until Stan needed to find a reason to write her out. She was scared of a tiger going to eat her and of gods trying to murder her but I don't consider that unreasonable. When attacked by the Cobra and Hyde she refused to leave Donald to their mercy despite him telling her to go. When Cobra threatened to throw her out of a window she was more concerned with Thor getting the villain than her own safety. When abducted by a gangster she wondered why a stranger would help her at his own risk rather than scream terror. When taken by Hyde, she hid Thor's hammer knowing it could get them both hurt because she thought that if Hyde lost he would kill Donald. Stan was writing to show us that Jane was worthy of being a god, we were meant to be on Thor and Jane's side against Odin before he inexplicably threw her out and needed a reason to have her be seen as inferior.

Or, its like One More Day lasting for 40 years with no hope of Peter and MJ finding each other again. Instead they show us how 'over her' Peter is by using MJ to show how much better they think his new girlfriend is.


You know, thinking about this now, if anyone at Marvel reads that they are going to have a lightbulb moment 'Give Thor a big story by killing Jane off once and for all!' *facepalm*


Gwen Stacy is beloved though. Jane gets her memories erased, suttled off with old men, etc.... she fades in and out of relevancy.

I love how Marvel writers know its messed up but instead of addressing it just cover it up.

Jane Foster comes out of the Runestaff dimension not knowing the guy she was living with just before she was put in there

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpvng1Npwy1qm2016o1_500.jpg

That is basically their last break up. She's married off in that dazed and confused state to Keith Kincaid.

Thor Vol. 3 #1 by JMS seems to be retcon happy. Donald has known loss:

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lqc3boicxS1qm2016o1_500.png

What is that? It looks like she's the one doing the leaving!

[tabo61]

I liked how Tanarus's outfit and weapon is different from Thor.

[Rosebunse]

I liked how Tanarus's outfit and weapon is different from Thor.

Yeah, even with his "charm", he looks rather ugly. It's like they were trying, but just couldn't do it.

I wonder how long he'll last? I hope they keep him around for a few years, at least. I also wish he would hang out with the Avengers more, at least to remind us that he exists.

LOL, I wonder what Thor will do to him, especially if he hurts Loki to keep his secret.

[Rheged]

I called for Karnilla to reappear in the Thor storyline just before Mighty Thor #8 was released and like manna from heaven not only did Fraction bring back this character, but he may have provided an explanation for what this character is and why she at times can wield so much power.

I'm not sure that Karnilla is "impersonating" the Three Witches, I think she may be a manifestation of them.

One of the unifying themes of Fraction (and Gillen) is that the gods have gods, beings of great power and mystery in their dimly remembered past. Given that the All-Mother is somehow three sisters united as one and given that the Disir were the Valkyrie of a previous Bor-led era, I speculate the Three Witches are what is left of the All-Mother of a previous era, and Karnilla is their physical projection into the current age, which is why she is declared in Mighty Thor #8 to be the Queen of the Norns.

Suddenly an excellent explanation appears for why Karnilla has been Balder's stalker for so long, because Balder as in other Marvel incarnations is the link to the World Tree and to other expressions of Asgard in different dimensions.

Karnilla has always been Queen of the Norns -- this is not something Fraction bestowed upon her. And the witches aren't the Norns, though Fraction seems to be setting them up as some sort of analog to the All Mothers.

[vitruvian]

Karnilla has always been Queen of the Norns -- this is not something Fraction bestowed upon her. And the witches aren't the Norns, though Fraction seems to be setting them as some sort of analog to the All Mothers.

Actually, they may be the Norns that are the Norse equivalent of the Fates (and yes, they have been seen in the MU before), just not the Norns that Karnilla rules over.

[Rheged]

Actually, they may be the Norns that are the Norse equivalent of the Fates (and yes, they have been seen in the MU before), just not the Norns that Karnilla rules over.

:confused:

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying.

The three witches, of which Kelda and disguised Karnilla are two, are NOT the Norns. The Norns are Urd, Verdandi, and Skuld. IIRC, Karnilla's exact relationship to the Norns hasn't been clarified, but she's always claimed to be Queen of the Norns. What has been made clear is that Karnilla is Queen of Nornheim, where the Norns, Urd, Verdandi and Skuld, live.

[vitruvian]

:confused:

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying.

The three witches, of which Kelda and disguised Karnilla are two, are NOT the Norns. The Norns are Urd, Verdandi, and Skuld. IIRC, Karnilla's exact relationship to the Norns hasn't been clarified, but she's always claimed to be Queen of the Norns. What has been made clear is that Karnilla is Queen of Nornheim, where the Norns, Urd, Verdandi and Skuld, live.

What I'm saying is that Fraction seems to have the three witches taking the place of Urd, Verdandi, and Skuld, who have in the past been identified as being the same as the Greek Fates, whose power was broken in the course of Ragnarok in Thor:Disassembled, and who tried and failed to recover their control over fate and destiny in the Dark Wolverine Siege tie-in issues.

I'm kind of wondering if he'd be using Li'l Norn versions of them (or at least Skuld) if there wasn't a concern about being sued by Kōsuke Fujishima.

[Rheged]

What I'm saying is that Fraction seems to have the three witches taking the place of Urd, Verdandi, and Skuld, who have in the past been identified as being the same as the Greek Fates, whose power was broken in the course of Ragnarok in Thor:Disassembled, and who tried and failed to recover their control over fate and destiny in the Dark Wolverine Siege tie-in issues.

No. I didn't get that impression at all. The three witches are Karnilla's power play, they have nothing to do with Urd, Verdandi, and Skuld.

[vitruvian]

Unfortunately, this is true. No other non-superhero supporting female character has gotten shafted as much as Jane Foster.

Well, there are the ones that've actually gotten fridged. That could be considered worse. And then Gwen Stacy was posthumously given an affair with Norman Osborn...

[superchick]

Well, there are the ones that've actually gotten fridged. That could be considered worse. And then Gwen Stacy was posthumously given an affair with Norman Osborn...

...which will be retconned eventually. There are too many people angry at that.

I do agree though that was a big slight on Gwen's character.

But for Jane its one of many. There hardly goes a storyline which doesn't have something bad for Jane done to discredit her character, her importance to Thor or her place in his stories.

Like her current out of nowhere relationship with Selvong. She looks desperate to rush so deep into a relationship. The writer didn't see fit to show us why she wanted to be with him or show them developing a relationship, its not important. That doesn't fit with the JMS Jane who left Kincaid because she realised that he wasn't the man she wanted. Why are we to believe this man trumped all that? We don't know anything about him beyond the fact, he's a scientist, has a car and is a horndog. The only attractive quality we are shown is his intelligence which Jane dismisses anyway.

The only reason that relationship exists is to annoy Donald. Its not for Jane.


If we are going to talk about 'fridging', isn't randomly marrying the character off/stealing her memories so the lead can safely hook up with someone else while the woman disappears from comics for years essentially the same thing?

[Rheged]

If we are going to talk about 'fridging', isn't randomly marrying the character off/stealing her memories so the lead can safely hook up with someone else while the woman disappears from comics for years essentially the same thing?

I don't think so. Fridging is where the woman's purpose for existing is to give the male hero motivation, it isn't about taking her out of play, which is what you're describing, I believe. The result is the same, except of course, one is more permanent.

[superchick]

I don't think so. Fridging is where the woman's purpose for existing is to give the male hero motivation, it isn't about taking her out of play, which is what you're describing, I believe. The result is the same, except of course, one is more permanent.

Its comic books, death is hardly ever permenant. Also, its not that the woman's purpose for existing is to the male hero motivation, but when what is done to her is done to give the hero motivation. So, with Gwen her death wasn't the natural resolution of her story it was to give Peter a heartbreaking story. When Supergirl was killed it was done to give Superman a dramatic story and in the end allow him to be the last kryptonian when the universe was merged.

Looking at the list, they weren't all killed (most were)
http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/women.html

[Rheged]

Its comic books, death is hardly ever permenant. Also, its not that the woman's purpose for existing is to the male hero motivation, but when what is done to her is done to give the hero motivation. So, with Gwen her death wasn't the natural resolution of her story it was to give Peter a heartbreaking story. When Supergirl was killed it was done to give Superman a dramatic story and in the end allow him to be the last kryptonian when the universe was merged.

Looking at the list, they weren't all killed (most were)
http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/women.html

Yes, your correction is more correct. :smile: But the point is, shuffling off Jane doesn't give the male hero any motivation, as 'fridging' does. It's just to take her out of play.

[superchick]

Yes, your correction is more correct. :smile: But the point is, shuffling off Jane doesn't give the male hero any motivation, as 'fridging' does. It's just to take her out of play.

I think we are splitting hairs where we basically agree on everything :biggrin:

Its a funny line though, she's a supporting character therefore she must provide situations that provoke the male character but in return we reasonably expect a B-story for her benefit, some involvement in the A-story and good character development. It NEVER happens for Jane. Its the wasted potential more than anything and after a year where everything Thor but the 616 comics have been using her well its even more glaring.

In the year of the movie, she has spoken two lines to Thor the entire year. On the plus side she may have clocked up around 6 616 appearances although the fact she has spoken two lines only to the lead character perhaps shows how sidelined she was.

[Rheged]

I think we are splitting hairs where we basically agree on everything :biggrin:

Its a funny line though, she's a supporting character therefore she must provide situations that provoke the male character but in return we reasonably expect a B-story for her benefit, some involvement in the A-story and good character development. It NEVER happens for Jane. Its the wasted potential more than anything and after a year where everything Thor but the 616 comics have been using her well its even more glaring.

In the year of the movie, she has spoken two lines to Thor the entire year. On the plus side she may have clocked up around 6 616 appearances although the fact she has spoken two lines only to the lead character perhaps shows how sidelined she was.

Well, I'll certainly agree that Jane's been treated pretty shabbily. She should so dump Thor. There's plenty of other nice Asgardians, if she wants a godly romance. :wink:

It's really too bad that Thor The Mighty Avenger was canceled. :mad:

[superchick]

Well, I'll certainly agree that Jane's been treated pretty shabbily. She should so dump Thor. There's plenty of other nice Asgardians, if she wants a godly romance. :wink:

It's really too bad that Thor The Mighty Avenger was canceled. :mad:

She'd need a Thor to dump! They would have to speak to each other, does Jane talking to Donald even count as her talking to Thor now?

She needs a good storyline more than she needs a random boyfriend. :tongue:


I am convinced The Mighty Avenger was cancelled because it completely showed up 616 Thor :evilangry:

But seriously, there is no reason 616 Thor couldn't be that good. But that would involve Marvel realising Thor/Sif is as boring as a CW 'drama' and that Thor doesn't have to be so Schwartzanegger.

[Rheged]

She'd need a Thor to dump! They would have to speak to each other, does Jane talking to Donald even count as her talking to Thor now?

She needs a good storyline more than she needs a random boyfriend. :tongue:


I am convinced The Mighty Avenger was cancelled because it completely showed up 616 Thor :evilangry:

But seriously, there is no reason 616 Thor couldn't be that good. But that would involve Marvel realising Thor/Sif is as boring as a CW 'drama' and that Thor doesn't have to be so Schwartzanegger.

Well, I have to disagree on the Thor / Sif assessment, as you knew I would. :tongue: However, I think 616 Thor would need far more than a Sifectomy to bear any resemblance to TtMA or be as fun to read. Actually, when I think about it, Journey Into Mystery is far closer to TtMA in tone and awesomeness.

Thor will be back. But him not being around is a perfect time for Jane to form a connection to another Asgardian. Because Jane isn't going to get a storyline of her own, without a connection to some Asgardian, whether it's romantic or something less pleasant. :frown:

[superchick]

Well, I have to disagree on the Thor / Sif assessment, as you knew I would. :tongue: However, I think 616 Thor would need far more than a Sifectomy to bear any resemblance to TtMA or be as fun to read. Actually, when I think about it, Journey Into Mystery is far closer to TtMA in tone and awesomeness.

A Sifectomy is only phase one of making Thor a more likable character in my opinion. Just being around Jane makes Thor far more accessible because he's pulled down to our level automatically. Sif has more of Thor's bad qualities like arrogance and the glorification of violence and it doesn't really make sense that a changed, humble Thor would not have moved on to someone who demanded the better part of him.

The Mighty Avenger also made Thor personally vulnerable, dependant and emotionally raw which allowed us to attach to him. 616 Thor cries MANLY TEARS, and its rare we get past the muscles these days. Stan knew that to make a man physically strong, you need him personally weak. Its OK to make Thor confused, its OK to make him not perfect. Mighty Avenger Thor, smiled, laughed and had more to his life than the next fight. He had a personality.


Thor will be back. But him not being around is a perfect time for Jane to form a connection to another Asgardian. Because Jane isn't going to get a storyline of her own, without a connection to some Asgardian, whether it's romantic or something less pleasant. :frown:

I wanted her to be friends with Kelda because they have a lot in common but Kelda's gone nuts.

I'd also be OK if she learned Asgardian medicine from Hardol the Healer so Thor has more of a dependancy on her. When Thor needs a doctor it should be her.

[Punchdrunk]

Again SC - all of your wants are valid and could be interesting.

In direct opposition - I would love it if Don Blake were split from Thor, got back together with Jane on his own mortal merits and we never saw either of them again.

I don't buy Thor to see mortal melodrama.

I buy Thor to see the Thunder God in action.

[Kyle_Ion]

I would much rather that Thor never hooks up with a human ever again, I'd much rather he hooked up with a super-powered human or a female godess or even a female mutant.

I'd also like to see him traveling other places that are not earth maybe a year or so.

[superchick]

Again SC - all of your wants are valid and could be interesting.

In direct opposition - I would love it if Don Blake were split from Thor, got back together with Jane on his own mortal merits and we never saw either of them again.

I don't buy Thor to see mortal melodrama.

I buy Thor to see the Thunder God in action.

Donald Blake isn't a man, should never be presented as such. He's a mask, an illusion. He's only half a character. Detaching Thor from humanity has been a big flaw in Thor over the years, it would be like detaching Superman from Clark and Lois and never seeing Metropolis again. Only worse because Thor doesn't have any Kent boundaries. To re-iterate what was said a while ago, he's a dumb caveman like Conan with a hammer most of the time because there hasn't been a writer like Simonson before or since to write him properly as Thor without a human outlet.

You can't create a comic book without any character and Donald is the side of Thor where the relatable character lives. When I read what you say all I hear is 'I just want him to smash things' and that is dull. And its not what Thor in his original creation was about. You need a balance and Thor doesn't have one right now for many reasons including the crazy idea that he isn't Blake, the utter lack of any interaction with a human supporting cast and the constant breathless brawling. Thor, currently is deeply unsatisfying for someone who isn't reading to just see Odin headbutt Galactus.

As for removing the 'motal melodrama', I take it you support my case for a sifectomy then? Walking whiny melodrama right there and she isn't even mortal.


I would much rather that Thor never hooks up with a human ever again, I'd much rather he hooked up with a super-powered human or a female godess or even a female mutant.

I'd also like to see him traveling other places that are not earth maybe a year or so.

What do super-powers have to do with anything? It doesn't make said female character interesting just because she can do kung fu/walk through walls.

I'd much rather he hook up with a character who brings out character in him and who is not just a 'powerful' trophy on his arm.

No great love story has ever been crafted between two characters who are similar. A great love story is always about people completely different finding out they are similar and challenging each other's perceptions.

[Punchdrunk]

When you read - "I just want him to smash things" you are reading your own take on a non Blake book.

I can relate to someone who feels like no matter how hard he tries the challenges of life prove too overwhelming.

I can relate to a character who has a convoluted past with his brother.

I can relate to someone who feels torn between taking care of one set of people in his life who need his help and another set who have an equal claim and equal need.

I can relate to someone who carries a lot of responsibility and expectation on their shoulders

And the list of character traits Thor has shown over the years goes on and on

There is no reason to make a Thor as Aesir only book be just about smashing.

It's just a lot more unique to Thor that the character who happens to be going through the all too human trials most anyone can relate to, is experiencing them on the bigger than life stages of Asgard or Avengers HQ.

The Superman analogy you make is EXACTLY why I'm not interested in Blake - the mask, the beard, the alter ego - done to death.

Thor has no human family to protect - any villain knows that he's worried about mortal who is threatened - including the villain if he's a mortal - so the Peter Parker reason is deflated.

Thor isn't Blake - he doesn't need Jane or Sif or Jarnsaxa to fall for the "real" him. The real Thor is Thor.

Blake doesn't need to teach Thor humility - Thor has Tom Breveroot and the rest of Marvel's staff to humiliate him plenty.

I get what you are saying and it has merit - just showing a differing point of view - that DOESN'T want Thor to be the Mythical Hulk and just smash but doesn't want to waste limited page space with a character who has outlived his usefulness about 3 decades ago.

Gillen, Gage, Parker, Tobin, Remender and Hickman could all do a lovely job with a Thor only Thor.

[Finganforn]

When you read - "I just want him to smash things" you are reading your own take on a non Blake book.

I can relate to someone who feels like no matter how hard he tries the challenges of life prove too overwhelming.

I can relate to a character who has a convoluted past with his brother.

I can relate to someone who feels torn between taking care of one set of people in his life who need his help and another set who have an equal claim and equal need.

I can relate to someone who carries a lot of responsibility and expectation on their shoulders

And the list of character traits Thor has shown over the years goes on and on

There is no reason to make a Thor as Aesir only book be just about smashing.

It's just a lot more unique to Thor that the character who happens to be going through the all too human trials most anyone can relate to, is experiencing them on the bigger than life stages of Asgard or Avengers HQ.
My thoughts exactly. And I tell you more, I would rather have a character that goes beyond what I can do and dilemmas that we as simple mortals cannot have. At the very least, how you relate to it and feel towards what as far as you know is impossible, it tests your limits and make you know your real self, undressed of social norms and impositions. If I really wanted a man too much like myself, I would read Batman, Captain America, and plenty of others more 'down to Earth' characters.


The Superman analogy you make is EXACTLY why I'm not interested in Blake - the mask, the beard, the alter ego - done to death.

Thor has no human family to protect - any villain knows that he's worried about mortal who is threatened - including the villain if he's a mortal - so the Peter Parker reason is deflated.I don't mind 'a Blake' (aka just a different appearance) as a mean to experience life as a mortal(-ish) without disturbance. Like vacation clothes, if it makes sense.

That being said, I would love to see more moments like those we got just before the Onslaught mess and briefly during Jurgens run where Thor in his godly form used his knowledge acquired as mortal, clearly being one and the same (in those examples he performs medical procedures, with bonus to Jurgen's run where he combines that with his own power to defibrillate Hogun).




Thor isn't Blake - he doesn't need Jane or Sif or Jarnsaxa to fall for the "real" him. The real Thor is Thor. Yes, exactly that. Since day one Thor is Thor regardless of appearance or company. Even under Stan where he was more like 'Blake with superpowers and confusing name calling (if he just had the power of Thor and could stop being 'Thor' if he wanted as it seemed originally, him being regarded as 'family' by Odin and Loki made very little sense)'. Except, for some authors (atm still a smaller part of his publication history, though if things keep the way they are...), it has always been the reason why he is Thorn up between two worlds worlds because as Blake he was himself just as Thor and he experienced both worlds, and felt empathy for both - which is more intense, and somewhat more selfless, than sympathy and in my book makes him all the more heroic.


Blake doesn't need to teach Thor humility - Thor has Tom Breveroot and the rest of Marvel's staff to humiliate him plenty. HAHAHA, that made my day! Too bad it is so funny cause it is true :/

[Thunderer]

Donald Blake isn't a man, should never be presented as such. He's a mask, an illusion. He's only half a character. Detaching Thor from humanity has been a big flaw in Thor over the years, it would be like detaching Superman from Clark and Lois and never seeing Metropolis again. Only worse because Thor doesn't have any Kent boundaries. To re-iterate what was said a while ago, he's a dumb caveman like Conan with a hammer most of the time because there hasn't been a writer like Simonson before or since to write him properly as Thor without a human outlet.

You can't create a comic book without any character and Donald is the side of Thor where the relatable character lives. When I read what you say all I hear is 'I just want him to smash things' and that is dull. And its not what Thor in his original creation was about. You need a balance and Thor doesn't have one right now for many reasons including the crazy idea that he isn't Blake, the utter lack of any interaction with a human supporting cast and the constant breathless brawling. Thor, currently is deeply unsatisfying for someone who isn't reading to just see Odin headbutt Galactus.

As for removing the 'motal melodrama', I take it you support my case for a sifectomy then? Walking whiny melodrama right there and she isn't even mortal.



What do super-powers have to do with anything? It doesn't make said female character interesting just because she can do kung fu/walk through walls.

I'd much rather he hook up with a character who brings out character in him and who is not just a 'powerful' trophy on his arm.

No great love story has ever been crafted between two characters who are similar. A great love story is always about people completely different finding out they are similar and challenging each other's perceptions.


I also like Jane with Thor, the whole fact of a God in love with a human gives a lot to do, as the dissaproval of Odin, the attacks on her to damage Thor, Thors strenghtened bound with earth, Jane giving him a point of view he won't find in Asgard and things like those.

I agree Thor alone can also be great but Sif has never been entertaining for me either, it's as if he wasn't with anyone.

[tonyboystar]

Loki.Though he couldn't quite remember Thor, he at least knew that Tanarus was not his brother — suggesting that even despite their past hatred, the bind between the brothers is even stronger than the bind between Thor and Sif!
jane is a better and more interesting character as sif .
sif is odins favorite because she does everything he says!