Spider-Man Villain "Tier" lists

[Xenon]

I can't remember exactly where this topic idea struck me, but while reading one topic I starting thinking about Spider-Man's B-list villains, and then I starteed to think "well hang on, who really qualifies as a B-List villain?"

And so I thought, hey! that's a good idea for a topic! That could be fun! So here we are. Named after Fighting game topics of a similar nature, here we try to settle just who really IS an A-List villain

Rules:

Very Few. Just stay on topic, post your own list or argue why a villain belongs in a certain tier.



I'll post one to get it started, note that I may have missed a villain (after all I still have a 20 year gap), and you can just put them in your list, they're not disqualified or anything. Also, within the tier lists, there is no particular order, just because Electro is at the top of a list doesn't mean he's better than Lizard.

A-List:
Green Goblin (Norman Osborn)
Dr. Octopus
Venom (Eddie Brock)
Hobgoblin (Kingsley)
Carnage
Mysterio


B-List:

Electro
Shocker
Lizard
Sandman
Scorpion
Kraven
Kingpin
Vulture
Rhino
Jackal


C-List:

Lightmaster
Mr. Negative
Spot
Chameleon
Hydroman
Morbius
Smythe and his Spider-Slayers (the lot of them)
Hobgoblin (Phil Urich)
Meteor Man
Fly
Tinkerer

D-List:

Green Goblin (Bart Hamilton)
Tombstone
Jack O'Lantern (Macendale)
Mendal Stromm
Swarm
Tarantula (Antonio Rodrigez)
Boomerang
Speed Demon
Shriek

F-List:

Kangaroo
Gibbon
Mindworm
Vermin
Screwball


Unplaced for lack of knowledge:

Hobgoblin (Macendale)
Green Goblin (Harry Osborn)
Demogoblin
Doppleganger
Morlun
Black Tarantula
Queen
Paperdoll


I think that's a good start. There's only a couple up there I feel I might be pushing one way or another too much. But only a couple. There are a lot more than I thought there was, and I think I've left off a couple of enemies that were one and dones.

[Cody1982]

I can't remember exactly where this topic idea struck me, but while reading one topic I starting thinking about Spider-Man's B-list villains, and then I starteed to think "well hang on, who really qualifies as a B-List villain?"

And so I thought, hey! that's a good idea for a topic! That could be fun! So here we are. Named after Fighting game topics of a similar nature, here we try to settle just who really IS an A-List villain

Rules:

Very Few. Just stay on topic, post your own list or argue why a villain belongs in a certain tier.



I'll post one to get it started, note that I may have missed a villain (after all I still have a 20 year gap), and you can just put them in your list, they're not disqualified or anything. Also, within the tier lists, there is no particular order, just because Electro is at the top of a list doesn't mean he's better than Lizard.

A-List:
Green Goblin (Norman Osborn)
Dr. Octopus
Venom (Eddie Brock)
Hobgoblin (Kingsley)
Carnage
Mysterio


B-List:

Electro
Shocker
Lizard
Sandman
Scorpion
Kraven
Kingpin
Vulture
Rhino
Jackal


C-List:

Lightmaster
Mr. Negative
Spot
Chameleon
Hydroman
Morbius
Smythe and his Spider-Slayers (the lot of them)
Hobgoblin (Phil Urich)
Meteor Man
Fly
Tinkerer

D-List:

Green Goblin (Bart Hamilton)
Tombstone
Jack O'Lantern (Macendale)
Mendal Stromm
Swarm
Tarantula (Antonio Rodrigez)
Boomerang
Speed Demon
Shriek

F-List:

Kangaroo
Gibbon
Mindworm
Vermin
Screwball


Unplaced for lack of knowledge:

Hobgoblin (Macendale)
Green Goblin (Harry Osborn)
Demogoblin
Doppleganger
Morlun
Black Tarantula
Queen
Paperdoll


I think that's a good start. There's only a couple up there I feel I might be pushing one way or another too much. But only a couple. There are a lot more than I thought there was, and I think I've left off a couple of enemies that were one and dones.

A few comments:

Mysterio seems misplaced. I would place Kraven and the Lizard both on the A-list above him. Is there one particular Mysterio story which you think bumps him up?

Take away Maximum Carnage and Carnage is just a Venom ripoff. I agree that he should be ranked A or B, but if being the center of one event story is that big of a deal then the Queen should be ranked higher.

C-list is a pretty broad. Chameleon and the Fly in the same tier?

[Chris N]

I'll have to disagree.




A-List:
Green Goblin (Norman Osborn)
Dr. Octopus
Venom (Eddie Brock)
Hobgoblin (Kingsley)
Carnage
Mysterio


Carnage sucks.

Beyond that, I would minimize the top tier. In my mind, Dr. Octopus and Norman should be alone though. But I can see the arguments for including Venom and Hobgoblin (I'm just a classics guy myself) You could make a case for Harry being top tier as well, but I'd make him B-list.

While I love Mysterio, he's not in the league of Doc Ock or Green Goblin in terms of the number of great stories he's been in, his importance in the mythos, or his recognition.

He is a standard member of Spidey's (great) rogues gallery and fits in est with

B-List:

Electro
Shocker
Lizard
Sandman
Scorpion
Kraven
Kingpin
Vulture
Rhino
Jackal

I think you're overvaluing both Shocker and Rhino, but that may be subjective. I'd argue Chameleon belongs with that bunch, and perhaps Morbius. The classic and great Spidey villains, but not quite Green Goblin or Dr. Octopus. None of them killed any Staceys.

Kingpin is odd because he's done less well as a Spidey villain. I'd agree he's a B-list Spidey villain but would argue he's an A-list Marvel villain (definitely the A-list Daredevil villain)

After this it gets more arbitrary. I'd throw almost everybody who doesn't suck into the C-list and just not have a D-list.



C-List:

Lightmaster
Mr. Negative
Spot
Chameleon
Hydroman
Morbius
Smythe and his Spider-Slayers (the lot of them)
Hobgoblin (Phil Urich)
Meteor Man
Fly
Tinkerer

D-List:

Green Goblin (Bart Hamilton)
Tombstone
Jack O'Lantern (Macendale)
Mendal Stromm
Swarm
Tarantula (Antonio Rodrigez)
Boomerang
Speed Demon
Shriek

F-List:

Kangaroo
Gibbon
Mindworm
Vermin
Screwball


I think you're undervaluing Tombstone (been watching the Spectacular Spider-Man lately, where he's used to great effect). Plus fun characters like Kangaroo and Gibbon. And I don't get the Vermin hate. He's cool.

To my mind, the bottom of the barrel is:
Carnage
Demogoblin
Spidercide
that armored dude who killed Lance Bannon




Plus I've always hated Tarantula.

[Kevinroc]

My list for A-list is short.

1: Green Goblin (Norman Osborn)
2: Doctor Octopus
3: Venom (Eddie Brock)

My B-list is a bit longer.

1: Electro
2: Rhino
3: Lizard
4: Chameleon
5: Hobgoblin (Kingsley)
6: Vulture
7: Kraven
8: Jackal
9: Scorpion
10: Sandman

Everything after that is debatable. I won't rate Mr. Negative yet. Too new. Same deal with the Urich Hobgoblin.

Kingpin has become more of a Daredevil villain over the years. Definite A-list there, though.

The Jackal WOULD be A-list but he's held back by his real lack of appearances in other mediums. His stock is definitely on the rise after Spider Island.

As far as the Harry Osborn Green Goblin? He really didn't have it in him to be a villain. His father really did a number on him.

[Mister Mets]

I have to think about this. First, I'll try to split the villains into six categories: A-list, B-list, C-list, D-list, F-list and Z-list.

The A-List is fairly self-explanatory. These are the best of the best. They've probably been in several great stories, and have probably contributed to superhero comics as a genre.

Norman Osborn (Green Goblin)
Doctor Octopus
Venom/ Alien Costume
The Lizard
Kraven the Hunter
Sandman

The B-list is a much larger category than the A-list, but it's still respectable. It includes a majority of the long-standing villains, along with villains who have had limited appearances, but significant impact.

Hobgoblin (Roderick Kingsley)
Green Goblin (Harry Osborn)
Carnage
The Jackal
The Sin-Eater
The Shocker
The Chameleon
Mister Negative
Fusion (Paul Jenkins)
The Spider Slayers
Vermin
The Scorpion

The C-list is for three types of villains: average recurring villains, entertaining recurring joke villains and one-off villains who were good, but not fantastic in their original storylines.

Overdrive (Brand New Day)
Screwball
Hammerhead
Hobgoblin (Jason Macendale)
The Spot
Hydroman
Green Goblin III (Bart Hamilton)
Boomerang
Mendell Stromm

The D-list is for the below-average villains. These guys are often redundant and generic.
Lightmaster
Swarm
The Schemer
The Smuggler
Cyclone
Mirage

The F-list is for the embarrassingly bad villains.
Mindworm
Kangaroo
Man-Mountain Marko
Freak
Medea and Boone (from the Clone Saga)

And the Z-list is the most obscure. These are the villains who were quickly forgotten after their first appearance, in which they were usually not the main challenge.

One minor note: Until Norman Osborn's resurrection, Harry Osborn and the original Hobgoblin were probably A-list villains. But with Osborn back, they go down a notch.
Likewise, Jason Macendale went from the B-list to the C-list following the return of Roderick Kingsley.

[Kevin Nichols]

Ooooo! Fun! (Yeah, I know I sounded like Coco just then. Ugh!)

Anyway, onto my lists. These are broken down in categories, but are not in any kind of order. I'm also not including villains who only had a single appearance (Skinhead, Fusion, etc.) or villains like Dr. Doom or Juggernaut, who Spidey has tangled with, but really belong to other heroes.

A-List - These guys are the top of the heap. Not necessarily my favorites, but the ones who have had the biggest impact on Spidey and are his archest of arch-foes.

- Dr. Octopus
- Green Goblin (Norman Osborn)
- Venom (Eddie Brock)

B-List - Should be the A-Minus-List. These guys are real heavy hitters. Classic Spidey foes who have stood the test of time.

- Chameleon
- Electro
- Sandman
- Mysterio
- Lizard
- Kraven
- Vulture
- Hobgoblin (Leeds/Donovan/Kingsley)
- Scorpion
- Kingpin
- Green Goblin (Harry Osborn)
- Tombstone
- Carrion
- Jackal
- Carnage
- Morlun

C-List - This is where the gap widens a bit. These guys have some power, but nothing real special about them. You wouldn't want to tackle them in a dark alley, but a guy like Spidey can take them apart with no problem.

- Rhino
- Hammerhead
- Vermin
- Shocker
- Enforcers
- Silvermane
- Smythe/Spider-Slayers
- Hydroman
- Beetle
- Speed Demon
- Boomerang
- Hobgoblin (Jason Macendale)
- Tarantula

[B]D-List[/D] - This is pretty much the bottom of the barrel. I'd let my grandmother tackle these guys and be pretty certain she'd come out on top.

- Gibbon
- Mindworm
- Grizzly
- Solo
- Kangaroo
- Looter/Meteor Man/Norton G. Fester
- Calypso
- Cardiac
- Demogoblin
- Doppleganger
- Black Fox

[OrpheusTelos]

I'm going to break the mold and go by Fighting tiers, just because I feel like I can better rank them that way.

Top Tier:
Green Goblin (Norman Osborn)
Doc Ock

High Tier:
Venom (Eddie Brock)
Green Goblin (Harry Osborn)
The Lizard
Kraven the Hunter
Sandman
Carnage

Mid Tier:
The Kingpin
The Jackal
Mysterio
The Chameleon
Vulture
Mister Negative (The Only one of the BND-villains I'd say broke the glass ceiling.)
Hammerhead
The Scorpion
The Rhino
Shocker

Nothing against Shocker, but he's always been more of a standard crook.

[Probably_not_a_Nurgling]

Morlun

Morlun was apparently once considered A-List enough to appear in that little dinky Handbook thing that only had main characters. Anyone remember that? Released around Aught Two or Three? He may have actually been the main villain in the comics at the time, I'm not exactly sure.

[Cody1982]

Morlun was apparently once considered A-List enough to appear in that little dinky Handbook thing that only had main characters. Anyone remember that? Released around Aught Two or Three? He may have actually been the main villain in the comics at the time, I'm not exactly sure.

Morlun's debut story put him rightup at the top of Spidey's villains list. I think the problem that kept him from establishing himself there was that there was no real way to use him in follow-up stories. He's kind of like tJuggernaut as a Spider-man villian. Great for one story but not much after that. That said, I'd like to see Dan Slott's take on him.

[TimmyG316]

Hold on!!!! What criteria are we ranking them on exactly? This absolutly needs to be established before going further becuase tiers shoudl be generally agreed on and that only happens when were ranking them on the same thing. For example it its on power sets someone like the Spot would actually be A list, even if he hasnt used those powers to their full effect. Discuss.

[Cody1982]

Hold on!!!! What criteria are we ranking them on exactly? This absolutly needs to be established before going further becuase tiers shoudl be generally agreed on and that only happens when were ranking them on the same thing. For example it its on power sets someone like the Spot would actually be A list, even if he hasnt used those powers to their full effect. Discuss.

I think the de facto decision has been to rank them by relevance/impact on the title. Like you said, the lists would look very different if we went by power level.

[ngroove]

A-List: All-Time Top Nemeses

Green Goblin / Norman Osborn
Doctor Octopus / Otto Octavius

Former A-Lists of their time:

Kingpin
Jackal
Spencer Smythe (as of the seventies)
Hobgoblin / Roderick Kingsley, Ned Leeds, Jason Macendale combined
Rose /Richard Fisk, Jacob Conover combined
Venom / Eddie Brock
Carnage
Green Goblin / Harry Osborn
Kaine
Black Tarantula
Menace

A-List, only of current so far:

Mister Negative
Hobgoblin / Phil Urich

B-List: Highly popular

Sandman
Mysterio / Quentin Beck / Daniel Berkhart (as of the 90s-00s)
Lizard
Vulture / Adrian Toomes
Electro
Rhino
Scorpion / Mac Gargan
Chameleon
Kraven the Hunter / Sergei Kravinoff

C-List: Notable enough

Hammerhead
Tombstone
Shocker
Hydro-Man
Silvermane
Enforcers
Mendel Stromm / Robot Master / Gaunt
Screwball
Paper Doll
Kraven / Ana Kravinoff
Spot (since the past few years)
White Rabbit (since the past few years)
Puma
Molten Man
Vermin
Tarantula
Alistaire Smythe



Not going any deeper, into "loser" territory; but man, I personally loved these guys:

Grizzly
Gibbon
Looter

[Telos]

My list for A-list is short.

1: Green Goblin (Norman Osborn)
2: Doctor Octopus
3: Venom (Eddie Brock)

My B-list is a bit longer.

1: Electro
2: Rhino
3: Lizard
4: Chameleon
5: Hobgoblin (Kingsley)
6: Vulture
7: Kraven
8: Jackal
9: Scorpion
10: Sandman

Everything after that is debatable. I won't rate Mr. Negative yet. Too new. Same deal with the Urich Hobgoblin.

Kingpin has become more of a Daredevil villain over the years. Definite A-list there, though.

The Jackal WOULD be A-list but he's held back by his real lack of appearances in other mediums. His stock is definitely on the rise after Spider Island.

As far as the Harry Osborn Green Goblin? He really didn't have it in him to be a villain. His father really did a number on him.

My list is almost exactly the same, although I would add Mysterio to the B-List over the Jackal.

[Scott Taylor]

So I am basing this on longevity. How do these villains stand the test of time? They have to be A-list, B-list, etc. today based on their entire history.

A-List: The Premier, top tier, will sell a magazine on their own, villains

Green Goblin (Harry and Norman both, as Goblins)
Doctor Octopus / Otto Octavius
J. Jonah Jameson (so what if he's not technically a villain)
Kingpin
Norman Osborn (because as a non-goblin, he is a different kind of nemesis)
Venom

B-List: Mostly great villains, who are sometimes silly.

Lizard
Electro
Mysterio
Jackal
Hobgoblin (all of them)
Carnage
Kaine
Sandman
Vulture
Kraven
Chameleon
Rhino
Scorpion

C-List: Mostly silly villains who are sometimes great

Hammerhead
Shocker
Enforcers
Kaine
Carnage

Everyone else is either not represented enough in Spidey history to comment, are villains that tend to get overshadowed by the story they are in, are not really Spider-Man villains, I forgot about them, or they are poop.

And Kingpin is on the bubble between A and B for me, but I flipped a coin and he ended up top tier.

[okpanic]

A list:

Green Goblin (Norman Osborn)
Doctor Octopus
Mephisto :wink:

B list:

Kingpin
Venom (Eddie Brock)
Lizard
Electro
Mysterio
Sandman
Vulture
Kraven
Rhino

Lower B list (not quite upper B list, not quite C list):

Hobgoblin (all of them, including Phil Urich)
Scorpion / Venom (Mac Gargan)
Mister Negative
Jackal
Carnage (begrudgingly so)
Chameleon

C list (relegated more to small timers, underlings of note, those who've had an odd great showing here and there but generally not consistent):

Hammerhead (even though his stock has raised considerably since BND)
Shocker
Demogoblin
Doppleganger
Alastair Smythe
Hydro-man
Morbius
Molten Man
The Owl
The Spot
Silvermane
Tombstone
Sin Eater
The Rose
Vermin
Carrion

D list (foes who are treated as puns or just haven't made many appearances in general or in a while):

Screwball
Shriek
Paper Doll
White Rabbit

F list (burn with fire, salt the earth, never mention them again):

Lady Stilt-Man
Freak
Spidercide

Where are they now?:

Cardiac
Raptor

Can't decide where to place Menace. :T

[ShaggyB]

Where are they now?:

Raptor

hes dead.... kaine snapped his neck.

[ngroove]

A list:
Mephisto :wink:

Mephisto, if categorized, is a Silver Surfer foe. Otherwise, he had left his mark on Spidey, as he left his mark on Ghost Rider, Hawkeye, Mockingbird, as well as the occassional messing with Fantastic Four, X-Men, Daredevil, and MU-wide events, such as Infinity War.

[Xenon]

Couple more tidbits.

Originally, my list had a seperate tier for GG, Doc Ock, and Venom as Rivals, but it made it look like A-List was too small.



A few comments:

Mysterio seems misplaced. I would place Kraven and the Lizard both on the A-list above him. Is there one particular Mysterio story which you think bumps him up?

Take away Maximum Carnage and Carnage is just a Venom ripoff. I agree that he should be ranked A or B, but if being the center of one event story is that big of a deal then the Queen should be ranked higher.

C-list is a pretty broad. Chameleon and the Fly in the same tier?

So I get caught in the first post, figures. =o

From Easiest to hardest.

The tiers are meant to be broad, but at the same time, Fly probably doesn't belong above D list. I may have been too generous to him.

Carnage IS just Venom ripoff, but he's a Venom rip-off with a twist that I think makes him worthwhile. He can't talk cassidy down, there's nothing for him to reason with. He's just a monster in human form. He's one of Spider-Man's greatest threats because of this, and while he seems to have been mishandled, I think he's still a great villain. There might be some "potential" bias there (as in, because I see the potential I rate him higher).

But Mysterio is one of the ones I may have been pushing too high, admittedly. It's not any particular story, I just think that his first appearances were magnificent. I think he has great schemes, a diverse power set, and is versatile enough that he can be used in various ways. I even think his reappearance around ASM 200 was very well done. My basic only complaint is that the classic design of his civilian identity is lame as hell.

And while he might not be A-List, I think he is certainly A List over Kraven or Lizard. Lizard has one schtick (I can't hurt him because he's Doc Connors!) and Kraven is ok, but just ok.



Carnage sucks.

Beyond that, I would minimize the top tier. In my mind, Dr. Octopus and Norman should be alone though. But I can see the arguments for including Venom and Hobgoblin (I'm just a classics guy myself) You could make a case for Harry being top tier as well, but I'd make him B-list.

While I love Mysterio, he's not in the league of Doc Ock or Green Goblin in terms of the number of great stories he's been in, his importance in the mythos, or his recognition.

He is a standard member of Spidey's (great) rogues gallery and fits in est with

He isn't as high as GG/DO/V but see above. There has to be SOME breadth. or it just turns into a top 60 list (not that doesn't have it's place.



I think you're overvaluing both Shocker and Rhino, but that may be subjective. I'd argue Chameleon belongs with that bunch, and perhaps Morbius. The classic and great Spidey villains, but not quite Green Goblin or Dr. Octopus. None of them killed any Staceys.

Rhino's appearences that I've read have been minimal, but he was the Juggernaut before the Juggernaut got to Spider-Man's world (and is actually beatable, eventually). Shocker is efficient, professional, and effective. He can stand up to Spider-Man in combat and I appreciate his pedestrian motivations.

Chameleon....eh...I feel like he's just too mundane. The last story around Red-Headed stranger was a good one, but he's just too reliant upon people not knowing he's there. Once they do, well, that's it for him.


Kingpin is odd because he's done less well as a Spidey villain. I'd agree he's a B-list Spidey villain but would argue he's an A-list Marvel villain (definitely the A-list Daredevil villain)

Frankly I had to go against myself to put him even into B-List. I think he's played out. Maybe he's a bigger deal for someone like Daredevil, but for Spider-Man, eh.


After this it gets more arbitrary. I'd throw almost everybody who doesn't suck into the C-list and just not have a D-list.

I'd say there's sucking and then there's sucking. D-List are those I would say have some redeeming value to them, at least a little bit. While F-List...well....


I think you're undervaluing Tombstone (been watching the Spectacular Spider-Man lately, where he's used to great effect). Plus fun characters like Kangaroo and Gibbon. And I don't get the Vermin hate. He's cool.

To my mind, the bottom of the barrel is:
Carnage
Demogoblin
Spidercide
that armored dude who killed Lance Bannon

You just seem to hate the 90s. =\

Tombstone has never impressed me, though I admit my exposure is limited. Kangaroo is just a guy who can jump high without any cool personality quirk s or motivations, Gibbon doesn't have any special powers worth mentioning, and his motivations are even worse. He's a dumb guy in a monkey suit. =\

[Xenon]

Morlun was apparently once considered A-List enough to appear in that little dinky Handbook thing that only had main characters. Anyone remember that? Released around Aught Two or Three? He may have actually been the main villain in the comics at the time, I'm not exactly sure.

I believe he was the main bad guy of the whole other mess, but I simply don't know enough about him to properly rank him. Someone else will have to.


Morlun's debut story put him rightup at the top of Spidey's villains list. I think the problem that kept him from establishing himself there was that there was no real way to use him in follow-up stories. He's kind of like tJuggernaut as a Spider-man villian. Great for one story but not much after that. That said, I'd like to see Dan Slott's take on him.

It is worth noting that villains that are too successful have to be put down/away. GG had to die because there was no way he was going to top what he did (at least without completely going against all established characterization of certain other characters :evilangry:). Carnage can't be used very often because he goes on a murderous rampage. You have to balance failure with threat to make a villain that is both great and long lasting.


Hold on!!!! What criteria are we ranking them on exactly? This absolutly needs to be established before going further becuase tiers shoudl be generally agreed on and that only happens when were ranking them on the same thing. For example it its on power sets someone like the Spot would actually be A list, even if he hasnt used those powers to their full effect. Discuss.

Of course it's not power level, because I find those kind of arguments dumb (and Spot can just teleport places, that's not that big of a deal).

Exact criteria isn't something I think can be nailed down, but that's fine. In general, I'd say we're looking at the "best" villains. Villains who have really made an impact on Spider-Man's world and had the best stories. Villains that when they're in the title, you know it's a big deal.


Mephisto, if categorized, is a Silver Surfer foe. Otherwise, he had left his mark on Spidey, as he left his mark on Ghost Rider, Hawkeye, Mockingbird, as well as the occassional messing with Fantastic Four, X-Men, Daredevil, and MU-wide events, such as Infinity War.

I left Mephisto off intentionally to avoid OMD talk and because he really seems like he's someone else's villain. But besides him I also left off Doctor Doom for similar reasons minus the controversy. DD fought Spider-Man early, he's made other appearances in various mediums (he was in Marvel Adventures Spider-Man fairly recently), but he just doesn't feel like he belongs. Same with Juggernaut.

[okpanic]

hes dead.... kaine snapped his neck.

Ah, I either missed that or forgot it. I didn't like him anyway.


Mephisto, if categorized, is a Silver Surfer foe.

The wink I put after his name was because I was kidding/stirring the pot.

[Mister Mets]

Rhino's appearences that I've read have been minimal, but he was the Juggernaut before the Juggernaut got to Spider-Man's world (and is actually beatable, eventually). Shocker is efficient, professional, and effective. He can stand up to Spider-Man in combat and I appreciate his pedestrian motivations.

Chameleon....eh...I feel like he's just too mundane. The last story around Red-Headed stranger was a good one, but he's just too reliant upon people not knowing he's there. Once they do, well, that's it for him.That's an interesting point.

Is "Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut?" responsible for Rhino being a B-lister? In that case, you had a villain who was tougher than the Rhino with a similar power-set in a story that surpassed any Rhino story before or since.

[Cody1982]

It is worth noting that villains that are too successful have to be put down/away. GG had to die because there was no way he was going to top what he did (at least without completely going against all established characterization of certain other characters :evilangry:). Carnage can't be used very often because he goes on a murderous rampage. You have to balance failure with threat to make a villain that is both great and long lasting.

That's kinda what I was thinking when I made the Juggernaut comparison. Spidey goes to great lengths to defeat him once but repeat battles would either weaken the character or seem unbelievable.

[Xenon]

That's an interesting point.

Is "Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut?" responsible for Rhino being a B-lister? In that case, you had a villain who was tougher than the Rhino with a similar power-set in a story that surpassed any Rhino story before or since.

eh...I wouldn't say Juggs is responsible for making Rhino a B-Lister, exactly, though that story probably contributed to Rhino's 20 year absence from the book (or whatever it was exactly). Perhaps in a way it did, because it played out the indestructible brute role to the most extreme degree it could. No point in doing a Rhino story, becaues he's never gonna measure up to Juggernaut, and it just leaves the readers thinking "well if Spidey can beat JUGGERNAUT, what can Rhino hope to do?"

Really, looking at it like that, I'm not sure Rhino even makes B-List.


That's kinda what I was thinking when I made the Juggernaut comparison. Spidey goes to great lengths to defeat him once but repeat battles would either weaken the character or seem unbelievable.

I would see Juggernaut, Norman, and Carnage as separate problems. With Juggernaut, it's just tiresome when the same thing happens repeatedly. Doc Ock or the Green Goblin always had a different kind of plan to spice things up. Whether that was to conquer New York or defeat Spider-Man, they were diverse. Juggernaut doesn't have a whole lot of variety to him. He's just indestructible. Which is quite a trick. But still his only trick. Either Spider-Man doesn't have a way to deal with that trick (and therefore runs around for two issues trying everything til he happens to fall in a cement pit) or he does, and it's over near instantly every time after that because Juggs is not adaptable. Using him again would weaken him, but it'd also be kinda boring, because we already played that card. It's the same reason why I think Kingpin is played out, because every time he comes in, they fight, Spider-Man is surprised by Kingpin's strength, repeat. "I'm sophisticated and running all the crime in New York" only works as a central plot so many times.

With someone like Norman, the problem is that he topped out. Seeing him again after his resurrection is like watching Micheal Jordan play for the Wizards. Yeah he's still good, but all you can think about is how great he was before and he's just a disappointment comparatively.

Carnage, meanwhile, has a bit of the one-note problem, but primarily doesn't work repeatedly because of consequences. You can only go on a mass murdering spree so many times before people just want you dead and not killing him looks stupid. It does also lose its impact "oh look, Carnage is murdering everyone again, surprise surprise". Doc Ock can keep operating over and over because in the end, he doesn't actually kill that many people (and even fewer villains), so people don't feel bad when he's around. I dunno, part of the problem might just be Cassidy. I look forward to Carnage USA though. The Carnage mini-series was good, we'll see if that can follow up well.