Peter David Discusses Amazing Spider-Man #289

[Mister Mets]

On his blog, Peter David posts But I digress... columns he had written for Comic Buyer's Guide.

And one of these was about Amazing Spider-Man #289, in which the Hobgoblin was revealed as the recently deceased Ned Leeds.

http://www.peterdavid.net/index.php/2011/11/11/weird-twisted-reasonably-true-comic-book-stories/

[David Walton]

I'm agreed with his reaction to Roderick Kingsley:


...we were kind of like, “Roderick Kingsley? Really? All that build up for Roderick Kingsley?” (I don’t recall whether it was Owsley who told us or Tom: my instinct is that it was Tom.)
.
I mean, don’t get me wrong: all of us respected the hell out of Roger. He’s one of the best. But not all ideas, even from the best, are great, and a Roderick Kingsley reveal just drew a great big “eh” from everyone in the room. Here’s the first rule of storytelling: if the people in the room aren’t excited by it, there’s a good chance that people outside of the room will share that lack of enthusiasm.
.

[oldschool]

A good column that discusses many things I have heard before but....and I hate to be so pedantic about this one element....I have never heard a rational explanation as to why Ned Leeds (a newspaper reporter) would have murdered the criminal (by blowing him up in his van) who led him to the Green Goblin's hideout. :confused:

Sure, the criminal would have approached Leeds (a logical choice, being a reporter--less logical that he would have approached Kingsley but that's another story) but not logical at all that Leeds would have resorted to murder to keep this secret when he had not yet taken the formula that would presumably unhinge him.

This remains one of the most unsatisfying plot points for me in the history of one of my favorite characters.:frown:

[coconutphone]

I'm agreed with his reaction to Roderick Kingsley:


.

Considering how well Roger made the reveal that it was Kingsley I would disagree. If they were non-plussed then it was their job to make the reveal a good one. They could weave Roderick back into more prominence enough so that when the reveal was made people wouldn't go 'Meh'.

Ned being Hobby didn't work for several reasons and I'm glad Roger made the correction years later.

[ShaggyB]

I'm agreed with his reaction to Roderick Kingsley:


.

I dont, looking back at what hobgoblin lives did... i think kingsley was perfect and ned was just not.

[David Walton]

There's really no emotional connection to Kingsley...he was just kind of there. Maybe that was the point.

But I'm actually much more impressed by DeFalco's idea that Richard Fisk was Hobby and Ned Leeds was the Rose.

[Xenon]

I think my favorite part of that Column was the end where he randomly blames other people for their decisions. "Owsley killed Jean and Milgrom made Hulk Gray, totally not my fault!" =p

[coconutphone]

There's really no emotional connection to Kingsley...he was just kind of there. Maybe that was the point.

But I'm actually much more impressed by DeFalco's idea that Richard Fisk was Hobby and Ned Leeds was the Rose.

Well I think when Roger left Kingsley basically just dropped off the face of the earth. That's more on the guys following in the books than the character itself not being interesting.

[Rob London]

Hah. Reading Hobgoblin Lives as a kid, I too was somewhat underwhelmed by the Hobgoblin's identity - "That's it? That Steve Martin-looking guy?" I'd only started reading comics a couple years beforehand, and thus had no idea who this dude was, although he had a short cameo in an issue of Spider-Man Unlimited a few months earlier...

[David Walton]

Hah. Reading Hobgoblin Lives as a kid, I too was somewhat underwhelmed by the Hobgoblin's identity - "That's it? That Steve Martin-looking guy?" I'd only started reading comics a couple years beforehand, and thus had no idea who this dude was, although he had a short cameo in an issue of Spider-Man Unlimited a few months earlier...

Yeah, I could not for the life of me remember who the hell Kingsely even was. And I read pretty much every Spider-Man comic from Stern up until Hobgoblin Lives.

Sorry, guys--he wasn't that memorable.

And Leeds had always been antagonistic towards Peter Parker. Plus the idea that it was someone who'd been there during Ditko's days was much cooler.

[oldschool]

Yeah, I could not for the life of me remember who the hell Kingsely even was. And I read pretty much every Spider-Man comic from Stern up until Hobgoblin Lives.

Sorry, guys--he wasn't that memorable.

And Leeds had always been antagonistic towards Peter Parker. Plus the idea that it was someone who'd been there during Ditko's days was much cooler.

Actually, Leeds wasn't really that antagnostic towards Peter except duriing the period that he and Betty were separated and Peter may or may not have shagged her on the side. But that's a moot point anyway as Hobby never knew Spidey's ID as Norman/Harry did.

I still have a great problem believing Ned would murder the criminal who tipped him off on the Green Goblin hideout (see my post above). That was wildly out of character for him....

[David Walton]

Actually, Leeds wasn't really that antagnostic towards Peter except duriing the period that he and Betty were separated and Peter may or may not have shagged her on the side. But that's a moot point anyway as Hobby never knew Spidey's ID as Norman/Harry did.

I still have a great problem believing Ned would murder the criminal who tipped him off on the Green Goblin hideout (see my post above). That was wildly out of character for him....

Maybe there was no satisfactory resolution. But it's not impossible for Ned Leeds to turn out to be a bad guy.

Like I said, I actually prefer the Leeds as Rose, Fisk as Hobby solution.

[oldschool]

Maybe there was no satisfactory resolution. But it's not impossible for Ned Leeds to turn out to be a bad guy.

Like I said, I actually prefer the Leeds as Rose, Fisk as Hobby solution.

A bad guy, sure....just not a murderer (at least not before he did the GG serum much later).

[David Walton]

A bad guy, sure....just not a murderer (at least not before he did the GG serum much later).

Why not a murderer? There's nothing in Leeds' history to suggest he couldn't be. People go crazy all the time. Reporters see bad things and get cynical. It's not a stretch for me to imagine Leeds snapping.

[oldschool]

Why not a murderer? There's nothing in Leeds' history to suggest he couldn't be. People go crazy all the time. Reporters see bad things and get cynical. It's not a stretch for me to imagine Leeds snapping.

Just could not see it in the way it was presented in ASM #238 (see my original post above); the "mystery protagonist" was presented as someone who had murdered before or, at the very least, did so here in a very calculated and pre-meditated fashion, not as someone who suddenly snapped.

[David Walton]

Just could not see it in the way it was presented in ASM #238 (see my original post above); the "mystery protagonist" was presented as someone who had murdered before or, at the very least, did so here in a very calculated and pre-meditated fashion, not as someone who suddenly snapped.

To which I can only say, "Meh."

I'm less concerned with an entirely logical flow of events than something that packs a punch.

You can find your way around that problem easily enough. Leeds simply came unhinged in the months preceding ASM 238.

But Hobgoblin Lives, while not a bad comic, was still a fairly soulless revelation to me.

[coconutphone]

To which I can only say, "Meh."

I'm less concerned with an entirely logical flow of events than something that packs a punch.

You can find your way around that problem easily enough. Leeds simply came unhinged in the months preceding ASM 238.

But Hobgoblin Lives, while not a bad comic, was still a fairly soulless revelation to me.

THAT'S BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO SOUL!!!1

:tongue:

I loved the reveal and thought it was 1000x better than stinky ol' Ned Leeds. The twin twist was a great twist. Plus it gave us an alive Hobby who was just plain cooler. Sadly he has since been taken off the table in favour of Phil.

[oldschool]

To which I can only say, "Meh."

I'm less concerned with an entirely logical flow of events than something that packs a punch.

You can find your way around that problem easily enough. Leeds simply came unhinged in the months preceding ASM 238.

But Hobgoblin Lives, while not a bad comic, was still a fairly soulless revelation to me.

Well, we have to agree to disagree here, I suppose. The Hobby reveal was built up over 4 years or so IIRC. Part of the fun for me as a young reader at the time was guessing and I kept going back to someone who would have murdered (a pretty big deal) in his first shadowed appearance.

I think, however, we would agree that the long road, combined with both Stern and DeFalco leaving the book and editors changing as well snuffed the fun out of how the reveal was executed regardless of who was under the mask.:frown:

[oldschool]

THAT'S BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO SOUL!!!1

:tongue:

I loved the reveal and thought it was 1000x better than stinky ol' Ned Leeds. The twin twist was a great twist. Plus it gave us an alive Hobby who was just plain cooler. Sadly he has since been taken off the table in favour of Phil.

I agree that Stern's "Hobby Lives" was outstanding and redemptive for a character that I hated in the '90's (Macendale as Hobby---bleeecchhh!:evilangry:). The twists were excellent and it just felt like the perfect coda for that whole mess. Can't agree with you about Phil though; I think this new Hobby look and character have been fantastic so far!:smile:

[Mister Mets]

There's really no emotional connection to Kingsley...he was just kind of there. Maybe that was the point.

But I'm actually much more impressed by DeFalco's idea that Richard Fisk was Hobby and Ned Leeds was the Rose.

In retrospect, one of the biggest mistakes was not tying Kingsley, a fashion designer, to the member of the supporting cast who worked in that industry.

That would have elevated Kingsley's role in the books a little, and could have raised the stakes for the final reveal.

[D. Perez]

I never liked Ned as Hobgoblin. When I began collecting old comics. Sterns and Defalcos run was the first I got my hands on. I suspected Kingsley to be Hobgoblin and was confused when I found out that it was Ned. I guess this has something to do with Tom trying to put up Kingsley as Rose and Richard as Hobgoblin. But Ned? I just couldn't see it. And I didn't get how he was killed by standard assassins considering that Hobgoblin had super-powers.

And as a funny note Hobgoblin Lives came out here shortly after and my questions was answers and I got Kingsley as the true Hobgoblin:biggrin:

[coconutphone]

In retrospect, one of the biggest mistakes was not tying Kingsley, a fashion designer, to the member of the supporting cast who worked in that industry.

That would have elevated Kingsley's role in the books a little, and could have raised the stakes for the final reveal.

Huh? They did. MJ.

Granted they didn't do a ton with that but it was there. Another missed opportunity by the writers/editors.

[Scott Taylor]

Ned as Hobgoblin worked better for me. Kingsley? Who is Kingsley and why should I care? He just won the hobgoblin lottery, thats all.

[Mister Mets]

Huh? They did. MJ.

Granted they didn't do a ton with that but it was there. Another missed opportunity by the writers/editors.

Sorry, I was vaguely aware that it was there, but they didn't do anything with it.

Probably because the writers after Stern weren't aware that Kingsley was supposed to be the Hobgoblin, and MJ wasn't back in the book during Kingsley's first appearances.

[oldschool]

Huh? They did. MJ.

Granted they didn't do a ton with that but it was there. Another missed opportunity by the writers/editors.

They actually did a lot more with the MJ/Kingsley connection during Stern's run on PP:SSM (which immediately preceded his run on ASM) but fewer people read that and reference only the flagship ASM title in their memory banks so I can understand the feeling that nothing was done with this idea.

[David Walton]

THAT'S BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO SOUL!!!1

:tongue:

I don't have soul, Coco--I am one. I have a body. :tongue:


I loved the reveal and thought it was 1000x better than stinky ol' Ned Leeds. The twin twist was a great twist. Plus it gave us an alive Hobby who was just plain cooler. Sadly he has since been taken off the table in favour of Phil.

It was well executed, but it still felt underwhelming and soulless IMO. But I did like that it brought Hobby back and he didn't go out like a loser.


Well, we have to agree to disagree here, I suppose. The Hobby reveal was built up over 4 years or so IIRC. Part of the fun for me as a young reader at the time was guessing and I kept going back to someone who would have murdered (a pretty big deal) in his first shadowed appearance.

I think, however, we would agree that the long road, combined with both Stern and DeFalco leaving the book and editors changing as well snuffed the fun out of how the reveal was executed regardless of who was under the mask.

I would definitely agree with the latter part. It's frikkin' nuts that Owsley was like, "So yeah, I killed our prime suspect Ned Leeds. It's going to press tomorrow. Soooo....I'm thinking Stilt Man?" (I kid about Stilt Man, but it's almost that crazy.)


I agree that Stern's "Hobby Lives" was outstanding and redemptive for a character that I hated in the '90's (Macendale as Hobby---bleeecchhh!:evilangry:). The twists were excellent and it just felt like the perfect coda for that whole mess. Can't agree with you about Phil though; I think this new Hobby look and character have been fantastic so far!:smile:

Like I said, HL made about as much sense of that mess as anyone possibly could. But if I ever write ASM, "Hobgoblin's Dead! Long Live the Hobgoblin!" will reveal that Ned Leeds was/is the Rose, and Richard Fisk was/is the Hobgoblin. It involves the Phoenix punching reality and kicking its ass.


Ned as Hobgoblin worked better for me. Kingsley? Who is Kingsley and why should I care? He just won the hobgoblin lottery, thats all.

Yeah, my reaction exactly. It was like....ooooookay.

What use did Stern make of him during ASM? I vaguely recall that he was present during the big blackmail party. The whole twin brother thing...I mean that was kind of pulled out the wazoo...I just can't think of that as brilliant or even cohesive. It involves a LOT of stuff going on behind the scenes that was never implied IIRC.

There was never a "Of course he used a TWIN all along!" moment for me.

Maybe I'm just that dense!

[ViciousX]

The thing of it is, Hobgoblin was never presented as crazy, tempermental, or unhinged. He was stone cold sane. Ned Leeds was many things, but he was never stone cold.

Hobgoblin was cold and calculating. Ned Leeds decked Peter in the face (while understandable, given the circumstances, someone cold and calculating would have taken vengeance another way).

Hobgoblin was clearly a wealthy individual. He was living in, or at least renting a mansion during Stern's run. Ned Leeds, as a newspaper reporter could never afford such a set up.

And if anything thinks it's weird that Georgie Hill would have gone to Kingsley with the Goblin's hideout in the first place, remember that Kingsley already had underworld connections, and was already involved in illegal activities.

Ned never made sense as the Hobgoblin. None of the clues in Stern's run ever pointed at him, and the psychology of Hobgoblin did not match up with the behavior of Ned Leeds (and we saw into Hobgoblin's thought processes a lot). Any those who prefer him as Ned want him to be Ned so badly, they're tossing logic and reason to the wind. "Who cares if it makes sense so long as it's cool."

[Scott Taylor]

"Who cares if it makes sense so long as it's cool."

Congrats. You've just summed up the whole reason I still read comics. If I want "its only cool because its logical" then I will read .... something else.

[Mister Mets]

The thing of it is, Hobgoblin was never presented as crazy, tempermental, or unhinged. He was stone cold sane. Ned Leeds was many things, but he was never stone cold.

Hobgoblin was cold and calculating. Ned Leeds decked Peter in the face (while understandable, given the circumstances, someone cold and calculating would have taken vengeance another way).

Hobgoblin was clearly a wealthy individual. He was living in, or at least renting a mansion during Stern's run. Ned Leeds, as a newspaper reporter could never afford such a set up.

And if anything thinks it's weird that Georgie Hill would have gone to Kingsley with the Goblin's hideout in the first place, remember that Kingsley already had underworld connections, and was already involved in illegal activities.

Ned never made sense as the Hobgoblin. None of the clues in Stern's run ever pointed at him, and the psychology of Hobgoblin did not match up with the behavior of Ned Leeds (and we saw into Hobgoblin's thought processes a lot). Any those who prefer him as Ned want him to be Ned so badly, they're tossing logic and reason to the wind. "Who cares if it makes sense so long as it's cool."
While Roger Stern's Hobgoblin stories are remembered more fondly now, and with good reason, it's worth remembering that the majority of the Hobgoblin stories during that era were written by people other than Stern.

[David Walton]

While Roger Stern's Hobgoblin stories are remembered more fondly now, and with good reason, it's worth remembering that the majority of the Hobgoblin stories during that era were written by people other than Stern.

Yep. Which means that Leeds made just as much sense by the time all was said and done. Which means logically, there was no good option.

But as far as an emotional punch...well, if the Ned Leeds reveal hadn't been screwed by Spider-Man vs. Wolverine, that would have rocked Peter's world!