WWECW what went wrong ? A time-line...or try to.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Hopefully since this is a wrestling forum , Brandon allows this thread...

************************************************** *******
2004:

Maybe it was best for Rob Van Dam he left WWE when his contract 1st came up. Rob has admitted he was burned out after so long in the WWE and meeting the glass famous ceiling 2 years in. But he stuck around and stayed. Along the way he would push Vince McMahon for years as he claimed to do a ECW DVD.

Vince perhaps thought he could just keep Rob at bay and say sure...yeah...maybe one day. Of course by 2004 Vince decided that he was gonna release a ECW DVD. It had been 2 years since he fully beat Acclaim in court for ECW's video rights and 4 years since the ill-fated Invasion angle that fizzled quickly months in.

So as RVD claimed , Vince didn't think the DVD package would do big numbers. He was in for a shock.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q85/RickJamesBitch0011/TheRiseandFallofECW.jpg


2005- By the spring of 2005 the reception the DVD had gotten and sales stunned Vince McMahon. That little rogue outfit from south Philly became one of the top selling DVD packages the WWE ever produced. More money was made from the ECW DVD than what Vince paid for WCW and that brand was essentially worthless to bring back.

Rob as he claimed pushed Vince for a PPV. Because in 2001 , the WWF then offered Paul Heyman its stars to do one last PPV. Heyman refused this and instead signed with the company. This was basically that concept and it was to say good-bye to the ECW fanbase at Hammerstein Ballroom. A famous ECW location .

Vince wanted someone to run the PPV and Rob basically said let Paul do it. ECW was his baby and he grew it. McMahon would even let Heyman write the angle with his approval. A shocking change of fortunes for Heyman who Vince basically demoted from Smackdown head writer to OVW head guy.

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac145/SaintPierreMe/Paul_Heyman.jpg

Heyman by this point didn't wanna be on camera anymore. In fact Paul himself wanted a backstage writers role and developing stars of tomorrow. But he was a gifted promo cutter and before long helped get Brock Lesnar over with great promos.

He also by 2002 became Smackdown's head writer and was busy making that brand very damn good. Of course Heyman had issues with Vince the entire time due to his wanting to write a good wrestling brand for the company. Vince wanted soap opera and pushed Heyman for an over the top storyline. Paul obliged of course and decided not to use any of his stars like Benoit , Edge or Angle for it. Instead he used Torrie Wilson and Dawn Marie .

By 2004 Vince realized what Heyman had did and realized that Paul would never write the brand like he wanted. So he demoted him to OVW to replace Jim Cornette , who got axed for slapping a kid there.

So Heyman was given power over the PPV. To book it how he wanted and run things how it would. Heyman even pushed that Sandman have the "Enter Sandman" music for his entrance. The result was a PPV that surprised the WWE... it did over 300,000+ PPV Buys.

By now Vince basically told Paul and Rob... he was gonna do One Night Stand II next June in 2006.


2006 - Going into 2006 , Vince wasn't just thinking of PPVs and DVDs. He now had his eyes set on the bigger picture. If those 2 streams of money was being made by ECW. Why not a 3rd brand ? This fit in Vince's dream of 16-24 PPVs a year concept he was dreaming of.

Plus 3 brands touring across the country would mean more money too ! But Vince started crunching numbers. To support a 3rd brand he would need more people backstage and to handle the touring . It was a lot of money to gamble with.

By 2005 Vince had brought the WWE rights back to USA Network. Bonnie Hammer ran USA Network very well and knew WWE programming was needed for her network to be #1 again. So she gave them a good deal and Vince was gonna do whatever nice things he could for her.

In 2006 Vince came to Hammer with a proposal for more WWE programming. Hammer already had 2-4 hours of WWE shows a week with AM RAW and RAW. So she told him USA Network couldn't do it. But she did have a network she was trying to build up like she did USA. The Sci-Fi channel was the perfect spot and she would give Vince's new 1 hour show a slot on Tuesdays.

It was cheap programming Hammer realized. Plus spinning off from the popular WWE , the idea was it would do huge ratings and attract people to shows Hammer would debut around it. So it was a win...win for both. Vince made a quick $3 million dollars to televise the new ECW.

In the early 2000s Vince was at a stockholders meeting and discussed why the company bought ECW. An investor basically asked why ECW right after the WCW buyout. McMahon gave an answer basically claiming , the ECW brand as it was could be a harder edged type of product for adults.

Heyman was back on board and wrote the angle again. The idea was to finally put Rob Van Dam over and let him have a run as WWE and ECW World champion. The crossover between RAW and ECW brands was originally gonna run til September.

Rob himself seemed renewed. His matches were more energetic and he had some great matches with Angle and Big Show. Kurt Angle himself was sent to the ECW brand to give it a good talented worker to help the young guys build around plus , give them a top star for RVD to fued with.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x310/The_Ultimate_Wrestling_Gallery/Kurt%20Angle/KurtAngle001.jpg

Except Kurt by 2006 was in a world of hurt. His repeated neck surgeries had left him in pain and after a 1 month rehab stay , he suddenly saw himself on the ECW Brand...plus RAW one as well. Angle was stunned at this and told Vince his health and marriage needed a half schedule instead of the 250 dates that was shown for him.

Vince weirdly wouldn't give Angle the half schedule. Even though Shawn Michaels himself was on one. Instead the 2 men worked out an agreement on Kurt's release from the company . Which was very odd considering Angle was one of the WWE's best farm league stories and mutiple time World Champion.

Angle would work one more house show against Rob and during the match would pull his hamstrings and hurt himself pretty bad. But Kurt went thru it and put over Rob as being a good man. That he stood up to him and others at times and that got Angle's props.

Of course Rob himself may have gotten Angle's props backstage , but weeks in Rob and Sabu got the famous driving thru the state of Ohio pullover . Which resulted in a wide spread video and Vince scrambling to make Rob drop all the titles before the mainstream press would get a hold of it. (they never did )

RVD was sent home 30 days due to this. But he felt that it was a small bump in the road and he'd be back near the top of the brand helping it take off. Little did he know Vince would hold that grudge a long time.

Heyman was in fact having his own issues with Vince in 2006. Like his time as Smackdown writer , Vince would not let Paul run the brand the way he wanted. Instead he would reject the 1st episode script numerous times as Paul and Tommy Dreamer scrambled to make it work.

Finally minutes before the taping was set to happen , Vince approved it. Sci-Fi according to them wanted 1 thing. They needed one sci-fi element. So Paul basically had a beautiful witch (Shelly Martinez named Ariel) paired with a wannabe Vampire (Kevin Thorne). He also had the ECW Zombie make his famous 1st and last appearance.

The lights were turned down and the arena was tried to be shot small scale as old ECW was. Paul's overall plan was to get future stars like CM Punk , Elijah Burke and Matt Striker over against his older established ECW stars.

end of part 1...part 2 coming (no comments yet guys)

[SUPERECWFAN1]

But this idea to slowly get the newer stars over was rejected by Vince. Instead he wanted them put over quick off the bat. The little payoffs to this had left people with a WTF level of caring after so long. Even when the older guard came back to win one match.

Viewers started tuning out after that record breaking 2.8 . Vince would have crossovers all summer long and even had Big Show promoted as a true monster heel. Heyman basically did what no other WWE writer did with Big Show since 1999 , he basically made him a heel monster who decimated guys .

Of course along the way this led into the infamous Hammerstein show. Which was completely Vince McMahon's fault. That hot August night , the loyal old school ECW fanbase packed the arena for a show where the ECW stars and CM Punk was expected to debut. Heyman wanted Dreamer/Sandman to close the show in a main event brawl against Test/Knox.

Instead the order from Vince was the crowd was getting Batista/Big Show. The entire crowd shit on it. The match was so bad , Batista during it stopped stunned as the crowd just pissed all over his face act. Backstage a furious McMahon blamed the fans for this. Claiming they didn't deserve another card and yanked the planned December PPV from it to Florida.

Heyman had no choice but to take it. But those older stars saw the writing on the wall. Sabu himself forgot his clothes twice and finally got released. Others were slowly released and phased out eventually. By the fall the show was very predictable and then Vince handed Heyman another hard pill to swallow.

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae100/sleepwalk247/bobby-lashley.jpg

Bobby Lashley was a young amateur wrestling star from the college ranks. Like a Brock Lesnar , Lashley had the look and skills. Before long he slowly worked his way up the Smackdown midcard . Its just one problem Bobby had...lack of character and mic skills.

The solution Vince had was simple...let Heyman get him over. And also ..he's gonna win the ECW World title. Paul however saw his plans for Rob Van Dam to pursue and get the belt back end. Knowing fans had bought into that storyline , inserting Lashley would not work.

Vince however would not listen. So at the December PPV it was laid out that at Elmination Chamber Lashley would win. Heyman booked a way to make Lashley's win a positive and sow seeds for future matches with CM Punk and Rob Van Dam. One plan called for RVD and Punk to go at it the longest in the cage and empty their arsenal's at each other...til Lashley came in and won.

This plan was stooged out by the backstage men (reportedly Arn Anderson and Michael Hayes) who didn't like CM Punk. The finish was changed to one where Lashley would go into a Goldberg style destruction and beat down those remaining and win strong in the cage.

To the shock of everyone (and no old ECW fans) the Florida crowd turned completely against the PPV as well. The main event got so bad that once Lashley did his Goldberg act , fans erupted into TNA chants. A shaken Paul Heyman was finally at his end.

2007 : The tapings right after the PPV , Heyman annouced he was leaving. He had been wanting out for months and only stayed due to Stephanie McMahon who tried to keep him. But at this point he didn't wanna stay and work with Vince any longer. So he left.

Rob Van Dam wanted out as well that Jan. Rob basically saw someone he respected pushed out and felt the brand was in major trouble. Those fears were justified as the WWE decided to keep punishing him by throwing his match against Lashley (a pretty damn good one) for free on ECW on Sci-Fi.

Creative instead throwed Lashley against Test. A career mid-carder on the Royal Rumble PPV. Lashley then struggled to beat this guy for 3 matches and finally won. This repeated with Mr. Kennedy a month later and another PPV where Lashley could not get a clean win.

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll17/PAULIELEXX/Donald_Trump.jpg

By the spring Rob Van Dam had pretty much decided to leave when his contract ended. Because he was burnt out and knew the ECW brand was a disaster . Vince however decided that he needed someone in his program against Donald Trump at Wrestlemania. The 1st idea was to sign Bob Sapp and do that. But Sapp declined it and Vince saw Bobby Lashley there.

But poor Bobby still hadn't gotten over with fans and Vince demanded the creative team do it. So one idea...was to air Lifetime type spots where Lashley would discuss his dad not being able to watch him wrestle with other family members to discuss what a man Bobby was. To the shock of no one , this never got Lashley any bit over.

So a decision was made that Lashley had to beat guys good to build him to Umaga. So he squashed Bob Holly in 5 minutes in a cage , after Holly had snapped CM Punk's unbeaten streak. Which shows you the common sense thinking here...Punk had gotten over so big at this point and more popular than the champ , why not do a program and put him over the unbeaten guy ?

But thinking like this seemed to easy for those now running the brand. Lashley did Wrestlemania , came out of it and had an injury. They ran an injury angle for him and no one cared. Months later Lashley was due back ,but McMahon realized he would have to be re-pushed all over again from the bottom and Lashley didn't want it. He was also pissed over his payout from that Wrestlemania.

By the summer after Vince won the title (yes he won it...god knows that didn't kill it finally) he realized ratings had dropped very bad. By a whole year near 50% of the audience had stopped watching. Growing tired of yet a 3rd brand of the same type show.

Vince decided he needed to send some stars there. So he sent John Morrison and Chris Benoit there. The goal was Benoit would be that 1 veteran who helped get the young kids ready. He also was gonna be the #1 face of the brand and likely fued against Morrison who was developing.

Then his situation happened and the things changed. By this point Dusty Rhodes was in charge of the brand and decided that the brand didn't need anyone to be #1 face now. CM Punk was it and he went with him that summer against Morrison. The result was when Punk finally chased and beat Morrison , even after days of being taped before Smackdown...the show did the best rating since the winter 1.7 .

Of course Morrison himself fucked up that fall when his name was found on a list that bought HGH. Morrison was suspended for a month and his punishment was the fued with Punk basically never continued. Instead in a situation where 2 wrestlers were basically considered low on the totem pole , Morrison and The Miz formed a tag team that soon took off !

Punk didn't have a long reign as Chavo Guerrero was given an ECW title reign. Then Kane....

That summer Rob basically wanted out by any means. So when told they needed someone to run an injury angle for Randy Orton , RVD did it. Because as he said later , he wanted out and was happy to go home til his contract expired.


2008-

By 2008 the ECW Brand was in its 3rd year and ratings had basically eroded down to 1.0-1.2 each week. If someone was different like a Kevin Thorne or Balls Mahoney , the worst possible move Vince made was to release the valet for the one who acted like a witch and release the over Balls Mahoney.

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk92/caliboypsychobillykid/balls_mahoney.jpg

With Balls , the fans saw a Mick Foley like face who really wasn't athletic , fit or anything. He was unique and fans would chant "Balls , Balls" . Plus Dusty had stumbled into a way to get Kelly Kelly over. Have her start a weird romance wanting Balls Mahoney.

This got Kelly over due to the fact fans loved Balls Mahoney. In typical Vince fashion he never realized Kelly got over due to Mahoney and had him released. Kevin Thorne meanwhile was repackaged as a generic guy and hated it. Pleading with creative to be the vampire guy again. He too would get released.

Of course during this year the belt was basically made into a trash can. I suppose after not having Lashley drop it in ring , him winning and all....Vince decided the best way to finish burying the damn brand was to make the belt look as silly as possible.

All thru 2008 ratings basically hovered around at 1.0-1.2's with Matt Hardy , Mark Henry and Chavo all getting title reigns.

FINAL PART COMING....

[SUPERECWFAN1]

2009-

But in 2009, a former WWE star was coming back. A big star...and in typical ECW Brand fashion it was blown too. That Feb. after weeks of debate what big role he would have on RAW and Smackdown , Christian just...showed up with no real fanfare. He just was annouced at coming back.

The fans of his were happy. But many had one complaint ...we missed Christian returning ! He was on ECW ? What the fuck ? And no hype for it ?

Its no shock Christian would win the ECW World title. He soon became the type of fighting champion who Bobby Lashley and others dreamed about. Somehow creative managed to book Christian beating and winning solid great matches and trading the belt against Dreamer over that summer pretty well.

Of course stories by that summer of 2009 , after 3 years of slipping ratings , SyFy was finally pressuring Vince to make changes to ECW. Vince put it off to work on things. So he of course by 2010 had a solution.

2010- By 2010 , Vince had decided to fold up the ECW brand and do NXT. He decided to at least annouce ECW's final show in 2 weeks. Unlike how they usually did things on WWECW.

Of course Christian by this point was considered a very strong champ and a win for him , and staying ECW World champion could mean showing up on RAW or Smackdown challenging the champion of that brand essentially.

To the shock of no one left watching Christian lost to Ezekial Jackson because even that common sense couldn't be seen. RIP WWECW June 2006-Feb. 2010.


What did we learn ?

Well this image sums up the WWECW brand basically from start to finish.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w228/zhouyuDAman/Face_Palm.jpg

ECW was considered the classic outlaw promotion with its small budget and real life type storylines/action. Paul Heyman made it into something his career will be known for forever. A thing that grew beyond a small cult to something that sold 300,000+ PPVs .

So why change the formula ? Why change what worked to do your same type of show ? Its ego. The ego basically had Vince make decisions and moves. Ratings and buyrates don't lie ...no one wanted Vince's ECW. It was an utter fucking travesty.

In all whats worse is the blown storylines and matches we could have had. The programs like RVD/Punk , Punk/Lashley , RVD/Lashley at a PPV. Instead the guys backstage were busy punishing the stars and blew chances to please fans and give them reasons to keep watching.

WWECW will go down in history as the absolute worst return of a promotion with few bright spots.

[XPac]

WWECW wasn't a that big a deal because honestly they didn't try to make it one.

It was their C show, and they treated it as such. It just happened to be called ECW.

[Young Avenger]

What Xpac said. The WWE always go out of their way to make their C shows seem important at the start. Look at WWE Superstars. When the show started you had guys like Undertaker, Shane McMahon, Mysterio, whoever was the WWE or World champion at the time making appearances on the show and midcard used it to kick off feuds like Morrison/Shelton Benjamin. Look where that show is now.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

WWECW wasn't a that big a deal because honestly they didn't try to make it one.

It was their C show, and they treated it as such. It just happened to be called ECW.


What Xpac said. The WWE always go out of their way to make their C shows seem important at the start. Look at WWE Superstars. When the show started you had guys like Undertaker, Shane McMahon, Mysterio, whoever was the WWE or World champion at the time making appearances on the show and midcard used it to kick off feuds like Morrison/Shelton Benjamin. Look where that show is now.


Its why WGN wants to cancel it now .

Honestly , it could have been your 3rd brand and made money if ran right. The DVD and PPV sales were there as we saw. In the end , they had a golden goose and shot it dead. Ego killed the WWECW brand and guys backstage at times.

[Young Avenger]

WGN already cancelled it. It's been a webshow for months now

[XPac]

Its why WGN wants to cancel it now .

Honestly , it could have been your 3rd brand and made money if ran right. The DVD and PPV sales were there as we saw. In the end , they had a golden goose and shot it dead. Ego killed the WWECW brand and guys backstage at times.

Truthfully, the real ECW on a national level did about as well as WWECW. And that was at the height of the wrestling boom.

Not saying the real ECW wasn't a lot better than Vinces version (which honestly wasn't even really trying). Just saying the end result was pretty much the same.

Honestly, I think the wrestling market has shrunk to the point where 3 brands wasn't really needed. I'm not even sure 2 are at this point.

[Aubergine~!]

Agree with pretty much all of that.

Great read, Super. Really good stuff.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I think with a PG rated product a Rated TV-14 product from Heyman , ran from basically Philadelphia , Hammerstein and another location would have been best. As one guy online I read in a column brought up a year or 2 back.

Run it in a way its a farm league full of young talents with the older ECW stars as teachers in a way. But make it like it once was and shoot it the exact same way. Run limited house shows for it. Film it like you do OVW and FCW and you have something.

Also before ECW got that Sci-Fi slot , one report was Hammer offered Vince the AM RAW tv spot. I think he could have done what I posted and just took the AM RAW spot at 2am Saturdays.

[XPac]

I think with a PG rated product a Rated TV-14 product from Heyman , ran from basically Philadelphia , Hammerstein and another location would have been best. As one guy online I read in a column brought up a year or 2 back.

Run it in a way its a farm league full of young talents with the older ECW stars as teachers in a way. But make it like it once was and shoot it the exact same way. Run limited house shows for it. Film it like you do OVW and FCW and you have something.

Also before ECW got that Sci-Fi slot , one report was Hammer offered Vince the AM RAW tv spot. I think he could have done what I posted and just took the AM RAW spot at 2am Saturdays.


Honestly the easist thing to do would be to just give Heyman FCW to run. I think that's what Heyman was actually doing before they re-created ECW anyways. They probably should have just kept him there.

If FCW's show is good enough, they can just air that.

It would of course be doing WWE style matches rather than ECW style matches... but that's kind of the point. It's a farm league for the WWE after all.

[Alex]

I don't think you mentioned when Tommy Dreamer got the belt, despite not having had a good match since the original ECW, and not being over with the fans, because the ECW fans gave up, or because he looked horrible in the ring.
And you didn't mention that we occasionaly got good matches in the latter days because ECW became like Superstars with bad stories, and we got matches with newer dudes.

[JCAll]

Personally I say WWECW was the best show they were putting out, at least at the time it was canceled. But then I say the same thing about Superstars.

[Genki Sudo]

The only good thing WWECW had going for them was CM Punk for me, pretty much the only reason I kept watching as I saw a old promotion and wrestlers I like get crapped on

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Honestly the easist thing to do would be to just give Heyman FCW to run. I think that's what Heyman was actually doing before they re-created ECW anyways. They probably should have just kept him there.

If FCW's show is good enough, they can just air that.

It would of course be doing WWE style matches rather than ECW style matches... but that's kind of the point. It's a farm league for the WWE after all.

Well Heyman was at OVW before he took the ECW revival job. Because it was at OVW that Paul saw CM Punk and knew he was gonna be the future star of his brand.

I do think from a report , Steph tried offering Paul FCW to run but at this point Paul was like..fuck it all. :tongue:

[XPac]

Personally I say WWECW was the best show they were putting out, at least at the time it was canceled. But then I say the same thing about Superstars.

In terms of actual in-ring action, minute for minute Superstars probably does give you the most bang for your buck. The exception being when something uber historic occurs on RAW which they have to recap in it's entirety. Otherwise, it often showcases some of the better in-ring talent in longer matches.

[Legato]

There were parts of WWECW that I liked. It was the start of The Miz and Morrison era and I enjoyed Christians little run. I knew that Vince would eventually not turn WWECW into the ECW of old but I accepted that it at least gave some of the upcoming wrestlers a chance to shine. I think if it wasn't for WWECW people like Miz would either still be struggling or would be future endevored

[darthjoker]

Thanks for the article/recap SuperECWFan. I do remember the zombie, and if I am correct the following weeks a new "strange person" would appear to be beaten by Sandman. I tought that awful. I never liked that. I wonder was that zombie an actual wrestler? and the subsequent "monsters" were they the same person? The only thing you left out was the Extreme Xpose segment. LOL I could not watch ECW with my little nephews at that time because of that segment..LOL I mean what did that had to do with wrestling. That was practically a soft stripper show.

Also as someone noted WWECW was good even better than Raw and Smackdown by the end.

and really? people chant TNA during the December to Dissmember PPV main event?

and yeah, wwe's new show tend to be a big deal at the beggining but then go downhill. I remember Sunday Night Heat would future top stars on its debut, then had story that would continue on Raw with big stars and then it was mid to low level card matches and replays of raw. There was a time that it was aired before the PPV in fact it was the beggining of many PPVs.

I kinda wonder how is it possible that Today's Vince is the same person that owned and run the company during the attitude era. I loved every minute every match of the attitude era (except some things, Chaz and maybe Meat and giving birth to a hand comes to mindm oh and Steven Regal). It sometimes seems that the quality got hurt when WCW dissapeared.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Thanks for the article/recap SuperECWFan. I do remember the zombie, and if I am correct the following weeks a new "strange person" would appear to be beaten by Sandman. I tought that awful. I never liked that. I wonder was that zombie an actual wrestler? and the subsequent "monsters" were they the same person? The only thing you left out was the Extreme Xpose segment. LOL I could not watch ECW with my little nephews at that time because of that segment..LOL I mean what did that had to do with wrestling. That was practically a soft stripper show.


As far as I know the monsters were different people. But what got that rolling was they needed a segment for Sandman to cane someone. Because fans wanted to pop for Sandman caning someones ass. So Tommy and Paul batted around ideas backstage and ran into this indie wrestler and asked him "Can you play a zombie...make a zombie voice..."

The guy made the voice and they rolled with it . He claimed that he thanked Paul and Tommy for this...because he took it and did a lot of indies work as The Zombie . The WWE didn't seem to mind. :tongue:

[Huthaifa]

I kinda wonder how is it possible that Today's Vince is the same person that owned and run the company during the attitude era. I loved every minute every match of the attitude era (except some things, Chaz and maybe Meat and giving birth to a hand comes to mindm oh and Steven Regal). It sometimes seems that the quality got hurt when WCW dissapeared.

Vince did not find Jesus. Vince is just looking to increase his sponsorships. Vince only takes risks, when he absolutely has to or when the potential for making money is too great.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Also Linda is running for Congress in 2012 so this PG stance is to not do anything crazy that could fuck up her campaign.

[darthjoker]

so there is actually someone out there wrestling as a zombie...well good for him. I mean he got something out of it.

and what are they afraid of... That vicky will give birh to a plastic foot? LOL

[SUPERECWFAN1]

so there is actually someone out there wrestling as a zombie...well good for him. I mean he got something out of it.

and what are they afraid of... That vicky will give birh to a plastic foot? LOL

Yep it was pretty funny. The Zombie is actually Tim Roberts...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Roberts

[XPac]

Thanks for the article/recap SuperECWFan. I do remember the zombie, and if I am correct the following weeks a new "strange person" would appear to be beaten by Sandman. I tought that awful. I never liked that. I wonder was that zombie an actual wrestler? and the subsequent "monsters" were they the same person? The only thing you left out was the Extreme Xpose segment. LOL I could not watch ECW with my little nephews at that time because of that segment..LOL I mean what did that had to do with wrestling. That was practically a soft stripper show.

Also as someone noted WWECW was good even better than Raw and Smackdown by the end.

and really? people chant TNA during the December to Dissmember PPV main event?

and yeah, wwe's new show tend to be a big deal at the beggining but then go downhill. I remember Sunday Night Heat would future top stars on its debut, then had story that would continue on Raw with big stars and then it was mid to low level card matches and replays of raw. There was a time that it was aired before the PPV in fact it was the beggining of many PPVs.

I kinda wonder how is it possible that Today's Vince is the same person that owned and run the company during the attitude era. I loved every minute every match of the attitude era (except some things, Chaz and maybe Meat and giving birth to a hand comes to mindm oh and Steven Regal). It sometimes seems that the quality got hurt when WCW dissapeared.

In part, I think the attitude era seemed better than the current product because it had better main eventers.

I think the WWE mid-card today is at least as good if not better than the WWE's mid-card back in the day. But the main event level had people like Austin, Rock, Triple H, Foley, and Taker in their prime.

Cena is the only person today even close to that. It was just a time when you had exceptional talent. If the WWE today had those guys in their physical prime, I honestly believe the product would be comparable to that attitude era. It woudln't be exactly the same... a PG rating can create some limitations they didn't have back then. But overall I think it would be just as entertaining.

[darthjoker]

In part, I think the attitude era seemed better than the current product because it had better main eventers.

I think the WWE mid-card today is at least as good if not better than the WWE's mid-card back in the day. But the main event level had people like Austin, Rock, Triple H, Foley, and Taker in their prime.

Cena is the only person today even close to that. It was just a time when you had exceptional talent. If the WWE today had those guys in their physical prime, I honestly believe the product would be comparable to that attitude era. It woudln't be exactly the same... a PG rating can create some limitations they didn't have back then. But overall I think it would be just as entertaining.

yeah maybe. altough I read somewhere in a comment made by someone, cant remember if it was here that: "someone like Mick Foley could have become a star in todays enviroment?"

[Legato]

There are times I felt The Sandman could have stuck around. I remember that he originalls was supposed to be the guy that was the candidate of being Vince's son when they ran that storyline, from what I recall Vince liked the guy and he was interested in pushing him. Think how awesome it would have been if it had been The Sandman instead of...That Little SOB.:mad: Imagine him in WWE meetings or even offering Vince or Steph beer:tongue:

[SUPERECWFAN1]

There are times I felt The Sandman could have stuck around. I remember that he originalls was supposed to be the guy that was the candidate of being Vince's son when they ran that storyline, from what I recall Vince liked the guy and he was interested in pushing him. Think how awesome it would have been if it had been The Sandman instead of...That Little SOB.:mad: Imagine him in WWE meetings or even offering Vince or Steph beer:tongue:

It would have actually been pushing a wrestler...even one who isn't good at all like Sandman . But it would have been pushing a new talent.

Honestly , the company should have waited a month for Ken Anderson to come back from his suspension and did what they wanted to originally. Push a new talent with it.

[Legato]

It would have actually been pushing a wrestler...even one who isn't good at all like Sandman . But it would have been pushing a new talent.

Honestly , the company should have waited a month for Ken Anderson to come back from his suspension and did what they wanted to originally. Push a new talent with it.

With Ken Anderson I believe it was due to Orton getting into HHH or Vince's ear after that botch Anderson pulled on him.

[Alex]

With Ken Anderson I believe it was due to Orton getting into HHH or Vince's ear after that botch Anderson pulled on him.

Wasn't he pretty injury prone though, like Batista but not as big a star?
I think that could have helped in their decision.

[Legato]

Wasn't he pretty injury prone though, like Batista but not as big a star?
I think that could have helped in their decision.

That too. WWE wouldn't want to put too much faith in a guy who might be at risk of being injured before headlining a big PPV

[XPac]

There are times I felt The Sandman could have stuck around. I remember that he originalls was supposed to be the guy that was the candidate of being Vince's son when they ran that storyline, from what I recall Vince liked the guy and he was interested in pushing him. Think how awesome it would have been if it had been The Sandman instead of...That Little SOB.:mad: Imagine him in WWE meetings or even offering Vince or Steph beer:tongue:

Pushing Hornswaggle was effectively pushing Finlay... which IMO is a step up from Sandman.

No offense to Sandman, but 70% of his appeal was his entrance, with the other 3%0 being the gimmick. Take all that away, and there was really nothing to him at all.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Pushing Hornswaggle was effectively pushing Finlay... which IMO is a step up from Sandman.

No offense to Sandman, but 70% of his appeal was his entrance, with the other 3%0 being the gimmick. Take all that away, and there was really nothing to him at all.

Pretty true ...Sandman even admitted he wasn't a good wrestler.

Also with Ken Anderson he suffered one injury that took him out awhile and one misdiagnosed injury that cost him a push. Also the fact when Orton took the bump its said he tooked his chin in and all...and caused that botch as people would show the gif of it here countless times.

[Alex]

Pushing Hornswaggle was effectively pushing Finlay... which IMO is a step up from Sandman.

No offense to Sandman, but 70% of his appeal was his entrance, with the other 3%0 being the gimmick. Take all that away, and there was really nothing to him at all.

Finlay was sent to ecw to work with the young guys anyway, he was never ment to get a push, too old.
And agree about Sandman, when your gimick is drinking beer, smoking, and hitting people with a stick, and you aren't a good wrestler, you should just drink, have an entrance, and hit people with a stick.
Which is what he did for a good portion of ecw.

[Alex]

Pretty true ...Sandman even admitted he wasn't a good wrestler.

Also with Ken Anderson he suffered one injury that took him out awhile and one misdiagnosed injury that cost him a push. Also the fact when Orton took the bump its said he tooked his chin in and all...and caused that botch as people would show the gif of it here countless times.

You know what the worst botched move i've seen in awhile?
Remeber that Swagger/Riley match on Raw?
When Riley was the one who messed up, but you assume WWE is going to blame Swagger.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

You know what the worst botched move i've seen in awhile?
Remeber that Swagger/Riley match on Raw?
When Riley was the one who messed up, but you assume WWE is going to blame Swagger.

Swagger's honestly looked even on replays he botched it with the pickup (maybe his hands slipped due to sweat , maybe he miscalculated Riley's weight for it). Hell many youtube clips call it his botch with many claiming each one fucked it up.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Swagger+botch&aq=f

edit : There is one further down the page where Swagger possibly botches with Evan Bourne ...which could have ended up worse than Riley !

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Also what are the odds Jack Swagger would actually do the same exact finisher...and nearly botch it the same way against someone else ? Well...he did against Santino as video shows back in October last year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcCIb9K7dRc

[Legato]

You know what the worst botched move i've seen in awhile?
Remeber that Swagger/Riley match on Raw?
When Riley was the one who messed up, but you assume WWE is going to blame Swagger.

I know it's easy to make fun of Riley but Swagger is also at fault in the botch

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I know it's easy to make fun of Riley but Swagger is also at fault in the botch

As the video shows above... same exact fuck up finisher with Santino. Same deal where he struggles at 1st and finally nails it.

In all ...Swagger seems to be having issues with doing this move. So stop having him do it. Make him do a Olympic slam as a finisher.

[XPac]

As the video shows above... same exact fuck up finisher with Santino. Same deal where he struggles at 1st and finally nails it.

In all ...Swagger seems to be having issues with doing this move. So stop having him do it. Make him do a Olympic slam as a finisher.

If he's any more like angle than he already is, his hairline will start receeding.

I'd rather they give him something else... maybe a fishermans suplex or something.

[Alex]

Also what are the odds Jack Swagger would actually do the same exact finisher...and nearly botch it the same way against someone else ? Well...he did against Santino as video shows back in October last year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcCIb9K7dRc

Riley didn't go up on the one im talking about.
Swaggers mistake was too keep trying it.

[Alex]

Swagger's honestly looked even on replays he botched it with the pickup (maybe his hands slipped due to sweat , maybe he miscalculated Riley's weight for it). Hell many youtube clips call it his botch with many claiming each one fucked it up.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Swagger+botch&aq=f

edit : There is one further down the page where Swagger possibly botches with Evan Bourne ...which could have ended up worse than Riley !

Yeah, there it is.
On that move, riley is suppose to kind of jump up to help him out, and he just stood there dead weighting him.
Other guys have used it, it's not swaggers invention.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

If he's any more like angle than he already is, his hairline will start receeding.

I'd rather they give him something else... maybe a fishermans suplex or something.

I'd give him and spinning Olympic slam into a diamond cutter finisher . Swagger should be able to do that I'd think and put a unique twist on it.


Riley didn't go up on the one im talking about.
Swaggers mistake was too keep trying it.

Well Santino seems to do the same exact deal and Swagger keeps trying. At this point I wonder if they should just change his finisher like they should do Crimson's.

[Alex]

Well Santino seems to do the same exact deal and Swagger keeps trying. At this point I wonder if they should just change his finisher like they should do Crimson's.

They probably should.
And Santino just stood there too, maybe the move is too complicated, or he isn't strong enough to do it without assistance.
Though...Santino isn't that big.
I dunno, your probably right, but has he ever failed on it with the really experienced guys? I bet he hasn't, but could be wrong.

[XPac]

I'd give him and spinning Olympic slam into a diamond cutter finisher . Swagger should be able to do that I'd think and put a unique twist on it.



Well Santino seems to do the same exact deal and Swagger keeps trying. At this point I wonder if they should just change his finisher like they should do Crimson's.

Technically he doesn't need another finishing move anyways since he already has the ankle lock.

Granted it's nice when a wrestler has more than one signature maneuver... but I think people more identity him with the ankle lock than the gut wrench at this point anyways.

[Alex]

Technically he doesn't need another finishing move anyways since he already has the ankle lock.

Granted it's nice when a wrestler has more than one signature maneuver... but I think people more identity him with the ankle lock than the gut wrench at this point anyways.

Do any guys have more then one finisher now?
Dolph has the zig zag and the sleeper...i guess the sleeper hold is one of his finishers at least, he's the only one that uses it anymore.
Off the top of my head i can't think of other ones, Punk used to have a submission.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

They probably should.
And Santino just stood there too, maybe the move is too complicated, or he isn't strong enough to do it without assistance.
Though...Santino isn't that big.
I dunno, your probably right, but has he ever failed on it with the really experienced guys? I bet he hasn't, but could be wrong.


Technically he doesn't need another finishing move anyways since he already has the ankle lock.

Granted it's nice when a wrestler has more than one signature maneuver... but I think people more identity him with the ankle lock than the gut wrench at this point anyways.

Hell if he's doing the ankle lock , give him the OS . It would be fun and possibly at some point if Kurt Angle does return to the WWE and Swagger has became more of a "name" you can have Swagger/Angle go at it.

"You stole my finisher , I made the Olympic Slam kid !"

[Alex]

"You stole my finisher , I made the Olympic Slam kid !"

Eh...i dunno about that.
If he keeps taking from Angle it's going to highlight that Angle is a much better worker, and that's not good.
Does Swagger really win enough for him too need 2 moves anyway?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Eh...i dunno about that.
If he keeps taking from Angle it's going to highlight that Angle is a much better worker, and that's not good.
Does Swagger really win enough for him too need 2 moves anyway?

I think if your gonna become a star in the company you need that finisher. To draw people to you. Swagger once he starts using Angle's OS , could draw more fans to hate him for stealing it. For using it.

Remember the ankle lock was basically Ken Shamrock's move. Kurt just started doing it...and before long...it became really HIS move. With a Swagger maybe if he does win enough...and does it well enough...the OS could pass to him.

[darthjoker]

"it's true, it's true" Angle originally only had the Olympic Slam (which later was renamed Angle Slam). Later he started using the Ankle Lock and they changed the name ot the Angle Lock.

and wow looking at those swagger botches vids, Swagger has made many mistakes with his finishers. didn't know there were so many times where he couldn't make his finisher. Maybe that's why he doesn't uses the Swagger Bomb as ofter as he did. In spanish once they said it was because he's opponent's weight was too much.

[Legato]

Howcome they renamed the Olympic Slam to Angle Slam?

[darthjoker]

Howcome they renamed the Olympic Slam to Angle Slam?

dont know, like Cena one day was FU and the next day it was Attitude Adjusment.

[Legato]

dont know, like Cena one day was FU and the next day it was Attitude Adjusment.

With that it was due to the PG Era.

[Alex]

With that it was due to the PG Era.

Well, wasn't it only called the FU because Lesnar's move was the F5? And Lesnar was gone...

[darthjoker]

Well, wasn't it only called the FU because Lesnar's move was the F5? And Lesnar was gone...

no I think it was called the FU because it was in Cena's character at that time.

[BYC]

Howcome they renamed the Olympic Slam to Angle Slam?
I don't know if this was true or not, but it was called the Olympic Slam because he was the champion for that 4 year period. But once the next Olympics came and went, he lost the rights to use Olympics.

[BYC]

no I think it was called the FU because it was in Cena's character at that time.
It was called the FU because Cena was doing his heel rapper gimmick at the time, and he feuding with Brock Lesnar. It made sense from both sides, so they used FU.