Re-read Avengers Forever

[the Hornet]

And I must say this is still one of the best Avengers story I have ever read. Busiek and Pacheco really brought their A-Game with help from Stern. At a time when Busiek's health was not so good too. Something I realized now regarding this -

1. The Giant Man/Goliath of this mini, I guess now thanks to the Secret Invasion reveal, would actually be a skrull. It was never the real guy. But what about Yellowjacket, anyone knows if that was a version before the skrull took over ?

2. Since Genis is dead now, I guess the version in this mini is from an alternate future timeline not the prime one?

3. The Vision and Human Torch being split into 2 via Immortus's manipulation of the time stream. He kept the results of the split in the same timestream. I guess that means one of the "Torch-es" belongs to an alternate timeline? Wonder who that might be?

4. Do the other Avengers of the then present timeline learn fully about the Destiny War or did they hide things from Wanda seeing as how she forgot about her kids during Disassembled?

5. Are Billy and Tommy from Young Avengers destined to be as powerful as the timekeepers suspected or since they were not really "naturally" created, will they escape that possibility ?

I miss the classic way of Avengers storytelling. I feel that it all ended with Busiek's last issue. I am a big fan of Bendis' New Avengers but wish his adjectiveless Avengers would be more like the classic one. I guess the closest we have is Allan Heinberg's Children's Crusade huh ?

[Werehunter]

A few notes on your comments.

1: Actually they showed that Pym was replaced sometime between Disassembled and the launch of New Avengers. So the Pym in this story is the real Pym.

4: Some did. I know Busiek had Pym mention it during his run since Pym and Wasp were supposed be the current versions of the characters.

[Thundermonkey]

And I must say this is still one of the best Avengers story I have ever read. Busiek and Pacheco really brought their A-Game with help from Stern. At a time when Busiek's health was not so good too. Something I realized now regarding this -

1. The Giant Man/Goliath of this mini, I guess now thanks to the Secret Invasion reveal, would actually be a skrull. It was never the real guy. But what about Yellowjacket, anyone knows if that was a version before the skrull took over ?

2. Since Genis is dead now, I guess the version in this mini is from an alternate future timeline not the prime one?

3. The Vision and Human Torch being split into 2 via Immortus's manipulation of the time stream. He kept the results of the split in the same timestream. I guess that means one of the "Torch-es" belongs to an alternate timeline? Wonder who that might be?

4. Do the other Avengers of the then present timeline learn fully about the Destiny War or did they hide things from Wanda seeing as how she forgot about her kids during Disassembled?

5. Are Billy and Tommy from Young Avengers destined to be as powerful as the timekeepers suspected or since they were not really "naturally" created, will they escape that possibility ?

I miss the classic way of Avengers storytelling. I feel that it all ended with Busiek's last issue. I am a big fan of Bendis' New Avengers but wish his adjectiveless Avengers would be more like the classic one. I guess the closest we have is Allan Heinberg's Children's Crusade huh ?


They are the same being. Its kind of like that Star Trek episode where Riker finds out about his "twin".

[the Hornet]

Thanks werehunter. I did not know when he got taken, I thought it happened years ago.

Yeah the Vision thing is confusing Thundermonkey, almost wish they left it alone but I guess it is not much of a biggie.

[XPac]

Thanks werehunter. I did not know when he got taken, I thought it happened years ago.

Yeah the Vision thing is confusing Thundermonkey, almost wish they left it alone but I guess it is not much of a biggie.

I gotta agree with the Vision thing. To me they should have left that one alone.

To a degree, part of me thought that mini sort of retconned things that didn't necessarily need to be retconned.

[tigerkaya]

I say it was necessary for the Vision and Human Torch being split since Bryne tried to do his retconn of Vision's origin. Plus it works, Thinker could use the Human Torch against the Fantastic Four and Ultron could use the Torch to create Vision.

[XPac]

I say it was necessary for the Vision and Human Torch being split since Bryne tried to do his retconn of Vision's origin. Plus it works, Thinker could use the Human Torch against the Fantastic Four and Ultron could use the Torch to create Vision.

Byrne's retcon was necessary because he wanted to bring the Torch back.

But I'm not sure I necessarily seen the point in retconning the Vision back into being the Torch since I honestly don't think Vision ever needed to be the Torch. Aside from retconning Byrne's retcon purely becausa it wasn't that well done, I don't think it really mattered to the Vision one way or the other.

Vision to me was nothing like the Torch. He didn't look like him, he didn't act like him, and he was never really treated like was the Torch anyways (by Namor or Cap). So to me it doesn't matter that Vision isn't the Torch.

[Kurt Busiek]

But I'm not sure I necessarily seen the point in retconning the Vision back into being the Torch since I honestly don't think Vision ever needed to be the Torch. Aside from retconning Byrne's retcon purely becausa it wasn't that well done, I don't think it really mattered to the Vision one way or the other.

The Vision had the Torch's memories buried within, to the extent that he had claustrophobia. He wouldn't have had those, unless he was created from the Torch.

That's what spurred me to play it that way, at least -- trying to keep both the Englehart and the Byrne "true" at the same time. Coulda been too messy, maybe, but I thought it beat having Professor Horton lecture Hank Pym about the meaning of a word Hank Pym made up.

In any case, glad people still remember the story fondly.

kdb

[tigerkaya]

At the end of Avengers Forever The Supreme Intelligence was seen with The Forever Crystal. Would be interesting to see DNA or Hickman to introduce into the a new plot. It could be used by The SI as an excuse for his return say that he created a duplicate with the crystal to stand in for him to be killed while the original was placed somewhere safe waiting things out.

[Valeria Kementari]

At the end of Avengers Forever The Supreme Intelligence was seen with The Forever Crystal. Would be interesting to see DNA or Hickman to introduce into the a new plot. It could be used by The SI as an excuse for his return say that he created a duplicate with the crystal to stand in for him to be killed while the original was placed somewhere safe waiting things out.

he used it to evolve the kree into ruul dyrin Maximum Security

[tigerkaya]

he used it to evolve the kree into ruul dyrin Maximum Security

Interesting, thanks for that, need to check that vol. of Avengers.

[Valeria Kementari]

Interesting, thanks for that, need to check that vol. of Avengers.

Maximum Security was a great idea, but I didn't much like the execution. It was a Marvel-wide event, not just Avengers

[tigerkaya]

Maximum Security was a great idea, but I didn't much like the execution. It was a Marvel-wide event, not just Avengers

I was actually referring to Avengers vol.4 by Busiek. Since the main Maximum Security is included in the volume.

[tigerkaya]

Since were on the topic thought this would be funny to post
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs51/i/2009/289/1/6/Past_Present_Future_Evilwabbit_by_TheDeviantMakepe ace.jpg

[Valeria Kementari]

I was actually referring to Avengers vol.4 by Busiek. Since the main Maximum Security is included in the volume.

well I don't buy tpbs cause I was there when the issues came out

[finfangfool]

Hoping Songbird becomes an Avenger eventually here, and still sad about the way Mr. David handled the Genis deal. Think that character had a lot of potential, could have been the Wally West to Mar-Vell's Barry. And even the best of writers seem to have a hard time writing insanity into a character (especially the star of a book) and making the story interesting for any length of time. Don't get me wrong, a fan of David's work. Just not that particular series. Despite the poor follow-up, still one of my all-time favorite Avengers stories.

[Beadle]

Genis isn't actually dead, is he? Just lost in the timestream or Darkforce Dimension or somesuch weirdness. I'm sure he can come back if the will is there.

And I still want to see him and Songbird join the big league. The best Avengers story I ever read, and I'm still waiting for the ultimate pay-off.

[Nomads1]

One of my all time favorites, despite my agreeing with X-Pac that I didn't see a need to retcon some of the things it did. Still, one of the best Avengers story ever.

Peace

[Valeria Kementari]

I never saw AveForever as retconning anything, merely "filling" the unexplained gaps

[coconutphone]

Marvel's reprinting this in November.

It is a great story. Glad I got the HC when I did.

[XPac]

I never saw AveForever as retconning anything, merely "filling" the unexplained gaps

When you decide that everyone in the Crossing was basically a space phantom, that's a heck of a retcon. It completely changes the way you go back and re-read that story (assuming of course anyone has bothered going back to re-read that story).

[Valeria Kementari]

When you decide that everyone in the Crossing was basically a space phantom, that's a heck of a retcon. It completely changes the way you go back and re-read that story (assuming of course anyone has bothered going back to re-read that story).

well I read Ave Forever before reading the Crossing so it was all good for me :p

[Beadle]

When you decide that everyone in the Crossing was basically a space phantom, that's a heck of a retcon. It completely changes the way you go back and re-read that story (assuming of course anyone has bothered going back to re-read that story).
Poor Rita De Mara.

Tony's all grown up again. Jan lost her weird insectiness (at least until she died). Gilgamesh came back.

Rita? Still dead, despite most of that story never having happened.

[XPac]

Poor Rita De Mara.

Tony's all grown up again. Jan lost her weird insectiness (at least until she died). Gilgamesh came back.

Rita? Still dead, despite most of that story never having happened.

Rita cam back for a bit during Chaos War... and it actually looked like she would putt through there. But apparently she didn't make it in the end since she was one of the dead that ended up dead again. So yeah... poor Rita.

I think interestingly enough, the biggest victim (or benefactor depending on how you wanna look at it) of the Crossing retcon is Pym. The Crossing retconned Hanks breakdown (the Jan slap in particular) to Kang mind controlling him. That was Hanks "get out of jail free" card.

But Avengers Forever retconned the retcon, making it Hanks fault again. And that basically takes away Hanks "free pass," allowing other writers to mine the Jan slap and his breakdowns again for stories. Which is exactly what happened.

[Beadle]

Slott gave Hank some kudos back in his "Scientist Supreme" role, but he's back to being a supporting character again now.

Also, thinking of Rita, I find it weird how few of the "Under Siege" Masters of Evil IV are still true villains.

Absorbing Man, Titania, Grey Gargoyle, Tiger Shark, Whirlwind and the Wrecking Crew are still villains (9 of them). Which sounds a lot until you consider how many of them there were (and how often Whirlwind is relevant these days).

Screaming Mimi & Fixer are now heroes.
Goliath became a hero, now apparently more anti-hero.
Blackout died.
Yellowjacket reformed, then died.
Baron Zemo, Moonstone and Mr Hyde are kind of straddling the line between villain and hero.

So only a little over half of this ultimate team of villains are still full-on bad guys.

But then I suppose of the Avengers roster when Under Siege happened, there's only Cap still around and part of the team, and he's only just come back. Jan's dead, Herc's depowered and running around on his own, Monica and Dane have become irrelevant as far as the Avengers are concerned. Even Namor, who was officially rostered but on walkabout at the time, is more of an X-Man and Defender now than an Avenger.

[Bad Wolf]

Mr Hyde [is] kind of straddling the line between villain and hero.

Really? Never thought that'd happen.

Speaking of Hyde, does he ever revert back to his normal form? The only time I can remember seeing him as Calvin Zabo was in a flashback origin in one of Stern & Byrne's Captain America issues. Even when he's in prison he always seems to be Hyde.

[deathcry]

Really? Never thought that'd happen.

Speaking of Hyde, does he ever revert back to his normal form? The only time I can remember seeing him as Calvin Zabo was in a flashback origin in one of Stern & Byrne's Captain America issues. Even when he's in prison he always seems to be Hyde.

read Thunderbolts... you will see Zabo

[IronMagnus]

Marvel's reprinting this in November.

It is a great story. Glad I got the HC when I did.

I'm glad it's being reprinted. I want to finally pick this up in HC even though I already have the individual comics.

[Blackknight75]

he used it to evolve the kree into ruul dyrin Maximum Security

So what de-evolved the ruul dyrin back into being kree? Given the recent events on the Marvel cosmic scene, I'm sure a super evolved ruul dyrin would have held out a lot better against the Annihilation wave and the Phalanx Conquest.

[Talisman]

To me, this is how an Avengers epic should be. This is possibly the last best space/time epic that the Avengers have been involved with. And while I do love the mega KangWar epic that was Busiek's swan song, it just lasted too long and the repercussions weren't felt line wide, which is what I felt they should have been. That could have been a mega crossover in the vein of Operation: Galactic Storm.

Now, stating this, I'd love to see what Mr. Hickman could do to the Avengers and Kang/Immortus in particular, because his work reminds me so much of Mr. Busiek's, and I think they could be brother's from other mother's.

[coconutphone]

I'm glad it's being reprinted. I want to finally pick this up in HC even though I already have the individual comics.

I think it's only in trade (the new release that is).

[StoneGold]

The Vision had the Torch's memories buried within, to the extent that he had claustrophobia. He wouldn't have had those, unless he was created from the Torch.

That's what spurred me to play it that way, at least -- trying to keep both the Englehart and the Byrne "true" at the same time. Coulda been too messy, maybe, but I thought it beat having Professor Horton lecture Hank Pym about the meaning of a word Hank Pym made up.

In any case, glad people still remember the story fondly.

kdb

There was enough good stuff in there that it didn't really matter, but the Torch retcon did feel a little "Namor's trunks." But hey, to paraphrase Animal House, forget it, you were on a roll.

[RDMacQ]

Rita cam back for a bit during Chaos War... and it actually looked like she would putt through there. But apparently she didn't make it in the end since she was one of the dead that ended up dead again. So yeah... poor Rita.

I think interestingly enough, the biggest victim (or benefactor depending on how you wanna look at it) of the Crossing retcon is Pym. The Crossing retconned Hanks breakdown (the Jan slap in particular) to Kang mind controlling him. That was Hanks "get out of jail free" card.

But Avengers Forever retconned the retcon, making it Hanks fault again. And that basically takes away Hanks "free pass," allowing other writers to mine the Jan slap and his breakdowns again for stories. Which is exactly what happened.

Personally, I doubt it would be regarded as an "out" even if Avengers Forever never touched on that point. I have a feeling the "revelations" in The Crossing would probably just be swept under the rug or outright ignored.

[Cthulhudrew]

Rita cam back for a bit during Chaos War... and it actually looked like she would putt through there. But apparently she didn't make it in the end since she was one of the dead that ended up dead again. So yeah... poor Rita.

I thought she and Swordsman were the only two to make it out alive, actually. (As if we really needed Swordsman back. Bring back Swordsman/Andreas Strucker!!!)

[Nomads1]

I think interestingly enough, the biggest victim (or benefactor depending on how you wanna look at it) of the Crossing retcon is Pym. The Crossing retconned Hanks breakdown (the Jan slap in particular) to Kang mind controlling him. That was Hanks "get out of jail free" card.

But Avengers Forever retconned the retcon, making it Hanks fault again. And that basically takes away Hanks "free pass," allowing other writers to mine the Jan slap and his breakdowns again for stories. Which is exactly what happened.

Could be wrong, but that's not how I recall it. When he found out that Kang had been manipulating Tony, Hank, as you say, jumped at the idea of a "get out of jail free" card, but Kang shot him down, denying any involvement with it, and even belittling a little bit Hank. I remember them having this confrontation during the last assult on Kang, the issue in which Tony dies, Hank is uselessly plumeting Kang's force-field. I could be wrong. Has been a long time since I read the Crossing, and don't want to put myself through the trouble of putting together all the issues of all the titles to do so again (that is why I'm one of the few who hopes for a Crossing collection one day).

Peace

[Yossarian]

It's really interesting going back to this as a new reader. I only came on to The Avengers after a long break from comics with New Avengers.

The good: I can see why people miss the traditional take on The Avengers - the scale of the story here is huge and it's a great adventure story. The concept alone is absolutely brilliant and does new stuff with time travel plots I've never seen before.

The bad: the 90s. specifically, the caption heavy laborious story telling techniques. Man alive I don't miss that one bit. It's so over done, and the art has so little room to breathe it's just awful to read. Really is. Such a clumsy, dull way to tell a tale. Busiek does well with the form all things considered but...man.

So yeah, enjoying it overall because the story is fun, huge and crazy, but it's really a product of its time and I think the comic form has come a long way since then thanks to more modern creators.

[The_Ronin]

5. Are Billy and Tommy from Young Avengers destined to be as powerful as the timekeepers suspected or since they were not really "naturally" created, will they escape that possibility ?



Check out the current on going Avengers: Children Crusade, Billy displays a power level he has not displayed before and the Avengers get nervous.

[strathcona]

I thought she and Swordsman were the only two to make it out alive, actually. (As if we really needed Swordsman back. Bring back Swordsman/Andreas Strucker!!!)

They survived the end of the Dead Avengers mini and made it into the final issue of Chaos War... but when the reset button was hit, they were sent back to the realm of the dead. The only ones that survived were Alpha Flight and Kyknos (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/kyknosares.htm). And as far as I know they were oversights.

I guess there is a chance that they are back, out there for some other writers to use. But Pak and FVL said their intentions are for them to be dead.

[K'un L'un Kid]

Genis isn't actually dead, is he? Just lost in the timestream or Darkforce Dimension or somesuch weirdness. I'm sure he can come back if the will is there.


Nicieza made it pretty darn hard to bring Genis back, IMHO. Between establishing that in every possible timeline he exists in, Genis will eventually destroy the universe if allowed to live and having Zemo trap him in time, split him into several pieces, and tucked into several far-off points of the Darkforce Dimension, a writer would have to be really, REALLY creative in finding a way to convincingly bring Genis back.

[Nomads1]

Nicieza made it pretty darn hard to bring Genis back, IMHO. Between establishing that in every possible timeline he exists in, Genis will eventually destroy the universe if allowed to live and having Zemo trap him in time, split him into several pieces, and tucked into several far-off points of the Darkforce Dimension, a writer would have to be really, REALLY creative in finding a way to convincingly bring Genis back.

Give Rick Jones (minus the A-Bomb persona) back the Nega-Bands, and have him re-bonded to Genis. He can use thiss bond as a template to pull back his spreaded pieces, reforming his body. Pure super-hero existential meta-physics 101, with a touch of suspension of disbelief. Plus, both Nicieza and Pad have constantly established thta the cosmic awareness only explores probabilities, not certainties. Fabe is not the kind of writer to write characters into this kind of creative deadend. Just the opposite.

Peace

[Beadle]

Give Rick Jones (minus the A-Bomb persona) back the Nega-Bands, and have him re-bonded to Genis. He can use thiss bond as a template to pull back his spreaded pieces, reforming his body. Pure super-hero existential meta-physics 101, with a touch of suspension of disbelief. Plus, both Nicieza and Pad have constantly established thta the cosmic awareness only explores probabilities, not certainties. Fabe is not the kind of writer to write characters into this kind of creative deadend. Just the opposite.
That, or just have Zemo look at his research again and go "Mein Gott - I haff made zuch a boo-boo. In effery timeline he vill destroy a UNICYCLE, not ze Uniwerse! Moonstone's really goink to laugh at me, don't you sink? She von't let zis vun schlipp!"

Because clearly he talks like a comedy Nazi.

[brundlefly]

That, or just have Zemo look at his research again and go "Mein Gott - I haff made zuch a boo-boo. In effery timeline he vill destroy a UNICYCLE, not ze Uniwerse! Moonstone's really goink to laugh at me, don't you sink? She von't let zis vun schlipp!"

Because clearly he talks like a comedy Nazi.

I'm fairly sure that he will under Jeff Parker's pen in T-Bolts soon, if his current treatment of Mr. Hyde is any indication. :evilangry:

I loved Forever. One of my favorite Avengers/Kang stories. I have the individual issues from when it came out, but picked up a marked-down copy of the collected trade late last year (as my singles are in storage) so I could reread it. It was every bit as good as I remembered. :biggrin:

[jrnewto]

The Avengers Forever "Crossing" retcon totally doesn’t work because Space Phantoms were only to be able to assume subjects that already existed, so if all the newly introduced characters were SPs who were they templates of? Another conceit of their powers was that they always materialised in Limbo exactly where their subject was specifically shunted to in Limbo but this definitely wasn’t shown at all for any of the characters they were supposedly masquerading as during either story. So the whole Space Phantom retcon is incorrect, which suggests it wasn’t an Immortus plot whatsoever.

[Kurt Busiek]

The Avengers Forever "Crossing" retcon totally doesn’t work because Space Phantoms were only to be able to assume subjects that already existed, so if all the newly introduced characters were SPs who were they templates of?

Beings that exist somewhere in time and space that you simply haven't seen before. Immortus has a long reach.

If a Space Phantom assumed the form of, say, Songbird, then traveled back to the era of AVENGERS #100, that Phantom would appear to be a new character but would still have duplicated someone.


Another conceit of their powers was that they always materialised in Limbo exactly where their subject was specifically shunted to in Limbo but this definitely wasn’t shown at all for any of the characters they were supposedly masquerading as during either story.

It wasn't shown, yes. Doesn't mean it didn't happen.


So the whole Space Phantom retcon is incorrect, which suggests it wasn’t an Immortus plot whatsoever.

No, we considered all of this stuff -- it's not like I'd never read a Space Phantom story -- and then didn't show you things like the Space Phantom copying Moonraker, beacuse (a) it would take up space and slow things down, and (b) then we'd have had to show you where Moonraker really comes from, which would be a big digression, and is better left to any future writer who cares to introduce him. It's a good costume, decent powers, so someone's now free to establish him wherever they like, now that he's been established to not be Libra.

People who know how Space Phanta work know that stuff happened even if they didn't see it, as sure as they know that Reed Richards goes to the bathroom; people who don't know won't really care.

By the way, I'm assuming you or someone else here is the guy who asked these questions via my blog contact form this morning, so by answering them here, I don't need to answer them there, weeks or months from now when I do another blog e-mail column...

kdb

[ducklord]

People who know how Space Phanta work know that stuff happened even if they didn't see it, as sure as they know that Reed Richards goes to the bathroom; people who don't know won't really care.

kdb

A) I loved Avengers Forever, and must find the time to re-read it someday.
B) "Space Phanta" needs to be a soda in the Marvel U.

[Kurt Busiek]

A) I loved Avengers Forever, and must find the time to re-read it someday.
B) "Space Phanta" needs to be a soda in the Marvel U.

A. Thanks!

B. I know it isn't a proper plural form, but I just like it.

kdb

[jrnewto]

Beings that exist somewhere in time and space that you simply haven't seen before. Immortus has a long reach.
You really need to go back and write a tale with them though. I'm sure everyone on this thread would love you to (or anything for Marvel really:)

You'll be aware how the Jarvis Heads would love to have seen Tuc revealed as having some link with Tuk the Caveboy as opposed to a Space Phantom. Now there's a tale yourself or Roger could really have some fun with:)


It wasn't shown, yes. Doesn't mean it didn't happen.
I wasn't just entirely referring to your AVF series but also specific scenes during The Crossing that showed characters later revealed as Space Phantoms stepping through portals from Earth to Limbo and arriving in locations where their subject wasn't in sight (not even arriving in cells where Kang may have been holding them). So just saying would have been good to touch upon this even with some short exposition is all but realise you had a mammoth job already on your plate:)


No, we considered all of this stuff -- it's not like I'd never read a Space Phantom story --
Given your penchant for continuity I'm certain you'd read them all over and over and over as part of your research (and much earlier as a fan:)


It's a good costume, decent powers, so someone's now free to establish him wherever they like, now that he's been established to not be Libra.
Moonraker is just such an odd codename when you consider his powers were generating corposant fire and had nothing to do with speed or Britain's ICBM-based national defence system!?

Though the more interesting power he showed was negating events which could have been used in the original tale to suggest he was Marcus Immortus;) Poor Julia Carpenter if so:(


People who know how Space Phanta work know that stuff happened even if they didn't see it,
Tch! Tch!


as sure as they know that Reed Richards goes to the bathroom;
Not quite the same thing since Reed's ability to relieve himself isn't based on his powers (unless he does so without a toilet and manipulates his tubing to mimic piping directly into the sewage system;)

While it unfortunately ended up a disaster in part, I suspect, due to the Heroes Reborn reboot (won’t go into the other reasons since we’ve all been over those before;) The Crossing raised some fascinating plot points, like:
1. Why Kang was opposing the Elder Cotati and the Priests of Pama – and married to Mantis – when in Fantastic Four #325 he was allied with them against her.
2. Why for that matter Kang would be intent on erasing Vietnam from history when this was his new wife’s birthplace, the location of the Temple of Agaphaur where she trained to become the Celestial Madonna, and most important of all where his agent, Tony Stark, became Iron Man.
While attempts to address this occur in Avengers #395 when Mantis reveals she joined Kang "to take revenge on the Vision for spurning her for the Scarlet Witch, driving her to marry the Cotati Swordsman and giving birth to the Celestial Messiah", why did she show no signs of being mad at him, or Wanda for that matter, when they were teammates in West Coast Avengers? The last time we’d seen her (i.e. Fantastic Four #325 and Fantastic Four Annual #25) she was intent on getting her son back from the Elder Cotati, so the seeds were obviously planted there for her turning against them. But why regret conceiving her son and go on to join Kang who had been their ally?
3. At the time it made me wonder whether it all alternatively suggested that Mantis had approached Kang after Fantastic Four #325, offering herself in place of his beloved Ravonna, in return for him wiping out all traces of her life, including the Temple of Agaphaur, DuQuesne, etc. (the deal also perhaps including Kang rewriting her history so she had conceived children to the Vision instead, since it was pretty obvious that’s who Malachi and Tobias were intended as and not Thomas and William as most fans thought at the time.
The only problem this raises is why Kang would switch sides to become her ally, or marry her for that matter, when she would attempt to undo the birth of the Celestial Messiah, or more recently undo her marriage to him and end up with the Vision after all!?
4. Then there was Force Works #18, where Suzi Endo and Rachel Carpenter (Spider-Woman II's daughter) discover temporal radiation emanating from a previously-unknown sub-basement containing Virgil , a "global chronography analysis and control suite" created by Timely Industries, a company founded by Tony Stark in 2009. "Victor Timely" was one of Kang the Conqueror's aliases from the early 20th Century. That is, in Avengers Annual #21, written by Mark Gruenwald himself (later Avengers-group editor under whom "The Crossing" storyline was constructed ), Kang journeys back to January 1, 1901 to found the town of Timely in Wisconsin under this same alias, slowly releasing technological innovations through Timely Industries. Yet, if Timely Industries wasn’t founded until 2009, it must have been constructed in numerous time periods at once, an anachronism back in 1901 too. While this is somewhat head-exploding, and a really cool concept, the corollary that should really bake every continuity nerd’s noodle out there is that Mark Gruenwald not only had KANG THE CONQUEROR revealed to have founded Timely Industries but had TONY STARK revealed as founding this same company. Gruenwald, whose particular remit was keeper of continuity never made these sorts of errors so did he perhaps intend to retcon Kang’s identity as Nathaniel Richards and reveal that Tony Stark eventually became Kang? This raised the problem that if Tony was so obsessed with preventing people from using his technology in Armor Wars, why he would then go to the trouble of going back in time to foment Marvel's technological revolution from 1901!?
Interesting if Tony Stark was intended as Kang, interesting that Tobias goes back in time and kills his parents, thus closing the loop. This would seem to suit Mantis’s motives if wanting to end up with the Vision, but I doubt Kang would support such a venture;)
Then going back to the original Celestial Madonna saga, this might suggest that Immortus had manipulated Vision to spurn Mantis so she would marry the Elder Cotati and produce a child he could manipulate in opposition to Kang.
Also love that the possible implication of Vision merging his body with Teen Tony during the conclusion in an effort to heal him leads to his going on to become Iron Lad;)

As for why and how the Celestial Messiah becomes the menace Kang and Co. claim, I have my own theories (which even Stainless Steve commended me on:) but am still unable to get over the hump of where Alioth fits into all this.


By the way, I'm assuming you or someone else here is the guy who asked these questions via my blog contact form this morning, so by answering them here, I don't need to answer them there, weeks or months from now when I do another blog e-mail column...
You're assuming right! Thanks again for taking the time:smile:


Visit Busiek.com—for all your Busiek needs!
I tried:wink:

[Kurt Busiek]

You really need to go back and write a tale with them though.

Had I stayed around on AVENGERS long enough, I certainly would have. No idea whether I'll ever get to it now, though.


I wasn't just entirely referring to your AVF series but also specific scenes during The Crossing that showed characters later revealed as Space Phantoms stepping through portals from Earth to Limbo and arriving in locations where their subject wasn't in sight (not even arriving in cells where Kang may have been holding them).

You can go in and out of Limbo other ways; they weren't in the act of doppelganging someone at that moment.


Moonraker is just such an odd codename when you consider his powers were generating corposant fire and had nothing to do with speed or Britain's ICBM-based national defence system!?

Yeah. Then again, Cable. Go figure.


While it unfortunately ended up a disaster in part, I suspect, due to the Heroes Reborn reboot (won’t go into the other reasons since we’ve all been over those before;) The Crossing raised some fascinating plot points,

Part of the trouble was that Mark Gruenwald's plans for where it was all going were lost. And people had made changes along the way that would probably have messed up whatever those plans were. If Mark's plans had still existed and still worked, we might have just gone ahead with some form of them, but as it was, we were almost completely in the dark.

kdb

[jrnewto]

Had I stayed around on AVENGERS long enough, I certainly would have. No idea whether I'll ever get to it now, though.
Bugger:(

However, I thought your run was as long as you planned?

Are you suggesting you could have written it longer? Did you have further plans? Can you drop any hints at all to adoring fans where you might have gone afterward? I heard somewhere you had plans for Zodiac and would love to have known what those were:)


You can go in and out of Limbo other ways; they weren't in the act of doppelganging someone at that moment.
I don't recall a Space Phantom previously returning to Limbo in any other way.


Yeah. Then again, Cable. Go figure.
His mother Madelyne was to sacrifice baby Cable at the top of the Empire State Building in a ritual that would permanently create a LINK between the two dimensions so despite the character not initially being introduced to be young Nathan Summers, it could be eventually resolved with some smarts;)


Part of the trouble was that Mark Gruenwald's plans for where it was all going were lost. And people had made changes along the way that would probably have messed up whatever those plans were. If Mark's plans had still existed and still worked, we might have just gone ahead with some form of them, but as it was, we were almost completely in the dark.
Yeah a shame but keen on your thoughts about my own breakdown:)

Did you also have any idea about that unresolved bit with Immortus masquerading as a Kree priest in Avengers #134 – just what was he up to hey:o

[Frank]

Byrne's retcon was necessary because he wanted to bring the Torch back.

Well it doesn't mean bringing the Torch back was the right thing to do just because Byrne wants him back. The result of this was, he made Vision into a pale boring being and after using Torch in a Invaders storyline, the Torch lost his powers and got stuck in Limbo for years after this(Lliving Lightning replacing him in Avengers West Coast).

Secondly they could have brought The Torch back without the retcon. Have Vision transfer his Torch memories into a super-computer, and somehow use Mad Thinker's technology with the adaptoids to create a new body for the Torch, then transfer the memories from the computers into the artificial being and voila.


But I'm not sure I necessarily seen the point in retconning the Vision back into being the Torch since I honestly don't think Vision ever needed to be the Torch. Aside from retconning Byrne's retcon purely becausa it wasn't that well done, I don't think it really mattered to the Vision one way or the other.

Vision to me was nothing like the Torch. He didn't look like him, he didn't act like him, and he was never really treated like was the Torch anyways (by Namor or Cap). So to me it doesn't matter that Vision isn't the Torch.

I understand the strange differences, but personaly I always felt Vision and Torch being the same being to be fascinating. It's the sort of stuff of why I like super-hero stories, the mix of creativity and continuity.

[NamorsTrident]

I loved Avengers forever! It was one of my first Avengers stories.

I hope one day Genesis and Songbird not only get the chance to be on the Avengers but also get back together. They make a interesting duo.

[Kurt Busiek]

Bugger:(

However, I thought your run was as long as you planned?

Are you suggesting you could have written it longer? Did you have further plans? Can you drop any hints at all to adoring fans where you might have gone afterward? I heard somewhere you had plans for Zodiac and would love to have known what those were:)

I could definitely have gone for longer, and had a fair number of story ideas to go on to, but it was time to go. Marvel at the time didn't really want my approach any more and while Tom Brevoort was always supportive, people beyond him weren't, really. So it was time to go be the new guy somewhere rather than be the old guy on AVENGERS.

As for the stories I'd have told, I'll keep those to myself, because you never know when they'll be useful. Much of what I did with John Stewart at DC, for instance, grew out of ideas originally intended for Quasar at Marvel. But fair's fair; some of what I did with the Vision had been thunk up years earlier for the Red Tornado...


I don't recall a Space Phantom previously returning to Limbo in any other way.

They're physical beings; they can possess/duplicate via transition but they can also walk through portals.

After all, in their previous origin (before we revealed it to be manipulation), their entire planet entered Limbo physically.


His mother Madelyne was to sacrifice baby Cable at the top of the Empire State Building in a ritual that would permanently create a LINK between the two dimensions so despite the character not initially being introduced to be young Nathan Summers, it could be eventually resolved with some smarts;)

Yes, that's awful.

I'm sure something just as bad could be done to justify the name Moonraker.


Yeah a shame but keen on your thoughts about my own breakdown:)

I only skimmed it, sorry. It's been so long since I was up on what was happening in The Crossing that I really can't judge.


Did you also have any idea about that unresolved bit with Immortus masquerading as a Kree priest in Avengers #134 – just what was he up to hey:o

Can't say I recall it off the top of my head.

kdb

[jrnewto]

I could definitely have gone for longer, and had a fair number of story ideas to go on to, but it was time to go. Marvel at the time didn't really want my approach any more and while Tom Brevoort was always supportive, people beyond him weren't, really. So it was time to go be the new guy somewhere rather than be the old guy on AVENGERS.
Sorry to hear:( Yeah Marvel hasn't suited my sensibilities for years now.


As for the stories I'd have told, I'll keep those to myself, because you never know when they'll be useful. Much of what I did with John Stewart at DC, for instance, grew out of ideas originally intended for Quasar at Marvel. But fair's fair; some of what I did with the Vision had been thunk up years earlier for the Red Tornado...
Thanks for advising about Quasar.


They're physical beings; they can possess/duplicate via transition but they can also walk through portals.
And previously only return to Limbo where their subject was there:wink:


After all, in their previous origin (before we revealed it to be manipulation), their entire planet entered Limbo physically.
Glad you retconned that story:smile:


Yes, that's awful.
That's Jeph Loeb. Sadly you'd have to admit it is not the most awful that's been written since, as I'm sure you'd well know after having to plough through The Crossing:wink:


I'm sure something just as bad could be done to justify the name Moonraker.
How would you approach it to avert fans having to experience such awfulness again?


I only skimmed it, sorry. It's been so long since I was up on what was happening in The Crossing that I really can't judge.
They were just questions I had at the time that I felt writers could have attempted addressing to properly close it off.


Can't say I recall it off the top of my head.
Bit late to get that petition going to get you back addressing it;)

[Kurt Busiek]

And previously only return to Limbo where their subject was there:wink:

Previously only seen to, but that's an aspect of them using their powers to copy or uncopy, not a limitation on their physical movement.


That's Jeph Loeb.

That's Jeph trying to justify a meaningless name; the problem, I'd say, is that the guy's got a meaningless codename.


Sadly you'd have to admit it is not the most awful that's been written since,

I don't think the yardstick we want to use is that anything that's not the most awful thing written is acceptable...


How would you approach it to avert fans having to experience such awfulness again?

Haven't really thought about it, sorry. If I was going to introduce the real Moonraker, I'd think something up.

kdb

[jrnewto]

That's Jeph trying to justify a meaningless name; the problem, I'd say, is that the guy's got a meaningless codename.
Sure. But so many meaningless ones to name and so little time:wink:


I don't think the yardstick we want to use is that anything that's not the most awful thing written is acceptable...
I'll agree with you on that one! Ha ha:wink:


Haven't really thought about it, sorry. If I was going to introduce the real Moonraker, I'd think something up.
Work with me for a moment here please please please:)

His power and the fact he was in Vietnam makes me think of Billy Pilgrim.

In the blue August moon, in the cool August moon…

The moon was always high in the sky when St. Elmo's fire was in the cemetery, or so Gabriel Garcia Marquez foretold. Hmmm, wonder if that alternatively provides a pathway? Nah!

I've tried the abattoir above five times but still not getting there, though Vietnam could still do it. Billy's not talking to me though.

Think we need to go back to Brian Eno for the solution.

[Kurt Busiek]

Work with me for a moment here please please please:)

His power and the fact he was in Vietnam makes me think of Billy Pilgrim.

In the blue August moon, in the cool August moon…

The moon was always high in the sky when St. Elmo's fire was in the cemetery, or so Gabriel Garcia Marquez foretold. Hmmm, wonder if that alternatively provides a pathway? Nah!

I've tried the abattoir above five times but still not getting there, though Vietnam could still do it. Billy's not talking to me though.

Think we need to go back to Brian Eno for the solution.

He used to have a summer job working for the Watcher, raking up the trash the Inhumans would leave around the Blue Area.

kdb

[jrnewto]

He used to have a summer job working for the Watcher, raking up the trash the Inhumans would leave around the Blue Area.
You know that's not that bad compared to what Jeph came up with for Cable!

Wait until Julie Carpenter finds out - she'll never believe his pleas to her that he didn't tap Crystal while there:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

[jrnewto]

It's interesting that Avengers #2 established that physically identical beings can't co-exist in the Marvel Universe at the same time (again hinted at with the Mr. Fantastic/ Brute storyline and Gatherers Saga), so when the Space Phantom took on the appearance of someone in our universe they were shifted to Limbo.

And guess who was sent to Limbo when "Jean Grey" returned in X-Factor?

So was this suggesting the Jean Grey you returned in Fantastic Four #286 was a Space Phantom? Or alternatively was Madelyne Pryor the Space Phantom?

[Kurt Busiek]

It's interesting that Avengers #2 established that physically identical beings can't co-exist in the Marvel Universe at the same time (again hinted at with the Mr. Fantastic/ Brute storyline and Gatherers Saga), so when the Space Phantom took on the appearance of someone in our universe they were shifted to Limbo.

And guess who was sent to Limbo when "Jean Grey" returned in X-Factor?

I don't know, sorry.


So was this suggesting the Jean Grey you returned in Fantastic Four #286 was a Space Phantom? Or alternatively was Madelyne Pryor the Space Phantom?

Not any suggestion from me, at least.

And I always enjoyed the fact that everyone would go on about how Madeleine Pryor and Jean looked identical, when Paul Smith had deliberately chosen to draw Pryor with her own distinctive face that clearly wasn't Jean.

But I guess if you have red hair, nobody looks at anything else...

kdb

[jrnewto]

But I guess if you have red hair, nobody looks at anything else...
Yeah very true! They let Byrne reveal Flint Marko was related to Norman Osborn because of the same 'do.

[Habis]

They are the same being. Its kind of like that Star Trek episode where Riker finds out about his "twin".

It's easy to split a person (or robot):

1.-Take it.
2.-Travel back in time, and put the body somewhere hidden before the timeline splits.
3.-Travel to each divergent timeline and retrieve both bodies.
4.-Return them to the place and timeline where you took it.


Rita cam back for a bit during Chaos War... and it actually looked like she would putt through there. But apparently she didn't make it in the end since she was one of the dead that ended up dead again. So yeah... poor Rita.

I thought that the woman with the bandaged face the Avengers went to rescue to the Microverse would end being Rita instead of Wasp...what a waste. I think a good Rita could mine Rita for better stories than Wasp.


he used it to evolve the kree into ruul during Maximum Security

Another event that is ignored without even retconning it. When the Inhumans conquered the Kree Empire there was no mention of the Ruul.



When you decide that everyone in the Crossing was basically a space phantom, that's a heck of a retcon. It completely changes the way you go back and re-read that story (assuming of course anyone has bothered going back to re-read that story).

And where de f*ck was Tony Stark during the Crossing and until Onslaught? Dead? Trapped in Limbo? They dropped Kid Iron Man into Onslaught and old Tony Stark emergend back, so either the original Tony or his soul would be trapped in Limbo or Death Dimension while a Franklin-created doppleganger makes his Civil War.

[Kurt Busiek]

Yeah very true! They let Byrne reveal Flint Marko was related to Norman Osborn because of the same 'do.

And it's not even the same, just similar -- at least not as originally drawn by Ditko.

kdb

[Blade X]

AVENGERS FOREVER is (IMO) one of the best damn Avengers stories that I had the pleasure of reading.

[Mary Jay]

I have bought Avengers Forever as TPB about a year ago, since I wasn't into comics at the time it was published. It is one of my favourite stories out there! The characters were so spot on, the story was great and so captivating! There's not a single complaint I could make about it.

But then again, I'm a big fan of Busiek's work on The Avengers. His "Ultron Unlimited" story arc is another favourite of mine's :biggrin: