Riots in London

[Motormouse]

So, a weekend of rioting and looting in north London has continued tonight, getting demonstrably worse and spreading to other areas including 3 boroughs that border on my town. It started on saturday when a peaceful demonstration about a man who was shot by the police on thursday we hijacked by lowlife scum. They've burned police cars, buses, stores (and the flats above them) and looted tv's pc's, CARPETS (wtf), they even torched Crispy creme Donuts, bloody philistines. Some people are trying to put it down to disaffected youth, which right now just seems like so much bullshit. Just about everyone that i know are totally disgusted. Apparently the rioters/looters are getting organised over twitter and facebook.

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/dynamic/00633/120692897_633966t.jpg

Article from the Independent

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/london-riots-spiral-out-of-control-2333748.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/uk/11/london_riots/img/panel/carpetburns_combo624.jpg

[Haydn C]

Crazy isn't it. We are over in the politics thread here on the comms bored talking about it.

[Matt]

As the riots seemingly have nothing to do with politics, it probably deserves it's own talking space.

Acts like this confound me. After all, what do the rioters hope to gain by burning/destroying other people's property?
They will be taken less seriously after this. Hatred for them seems rather intense because of the riots.

Nothing good will come from the entire thing. It, like all riots, seems to be the actions of the stupid and illiterate - something akin to upset monkeys flinging their own poo around.

[Haydn C]

As the riots seemingly have nothing to do with politics, it probably deserves it's own talking space.

Acts like this confound me. After all, what do the rioters hope to gain by burning/destroying other people's property?
They will be taken less seriously after this. Hatred for them seems rather intense because of the riots.

Nothing good will come from the entire thing. It, like all riots, seems to be the actions of the stupid and illiterate - something akin to upset monkeys flinging their own poo around.

Good point and we don't want to clog up that thread.

It doesn't seem to be calming down either.

King Mob posted a good link to a blog updating the story.

http://thewestlondoner.wordpress.com/

[tformsopti8]

I have no idea what compels people to act in such a way. Just mind boggling.

[RolandJP]

As the riots seemingly have nothing to do with politics, it probably deserves it's own talking space.

Acts like this confound me. After all, what do the rioters hope to gain by burning/destroying other people's property?
They will be taken less seriously after this. Hatred for them seems rather intense because of the riots.

Nothing good will come from the entire thing. It, like all riots, seems to be the actions of the stupid and illiterate - something akin to upset monkeys flinging their own poo around.

This wrong on so many level.

What compels people to act this way?

Poverty.
Demoralization.
Destabilization.
Crisis.

People have lost jobs and are becoming desperate and Angry. They don't have the money or wherewithal to rant online. Or go to Tea Party Rallies.

Im not talking about the ones taking advantage to loot. (when they obviously have enough money to pay Verizon, Sprint & Virgin Mobile.

[Motormouse]

I have no idea what compels people to act in such a way. Just mind boggling.

Free phones, free tv's and mind boggling ignorance

[Matt]

And destroying businesses and facilities that might have given them a job in the future aids their cause how?
I stand by my assessment; it is an inherently stupid and self defeating act.

[Motormouse]

People have lost jobs and are becoming desperate and Angry. .

Most of the rioters seem to be teenagers, this is just pure opportunism dude

[Haydn C]

Reports of a mob attacking police with bottles on Portobello Road, police have cordoned off the street.

Alot of eyewitness reports from Clapham and other areas saying there is no police presence in many areas. I can only imagine they are massively overstretched.

[Motormouse]

Reports of a mob attacking police with bottles on Portobello Road, police have cordoned off the street.

Alot of eyewitness reports from Clapham and other areas saying there is no police presence in many areas. I can only imagine they are massively overstretched.

Guess they might have to reverse some of those cuts to the police then!

[Haydn C]

Guess they might have to reverse some of those cuts to the police then!

It will be water cannons on the streets at this rate.

[Puppetmaker Grae]

It will be water cannons on the streets at this rate.

They're only legal in Northern Ireland as I understand it. I may be wrong though, it could just be that the PSNI are the only UK force equipped with them.

[Motormouse]

Ealing shopping centre is going up in flames apparently, so thats West london as well!

[Haydn C]

They're only legal in Northern Ireland as I understand it. I may be wrong though, it could just be that the PSNI are the only UK force equipped with them.

I think your correct on that, no idea what the police can do if this carries on.

[Motormouse]

They're only legal in Northern Ireland as I understand it. I may be wrong though, it could just be that the PSNI are the only UK force equipped with them.

If needed, they could always use Military Airforce fire engines, they're essentially water cannon

[Haydn C]

Ealing shopping centre is going up in flames apparently, so thats West london as well!

Are they just working their way round London?

[Haydn C]

Ealing shopping centre is going up in flames apparently, so thats West london as well!

Are they just working their way round London?

[Motormouse]

Are they just working their way round London?

Seems like it. i'll be stunned if no one dies in one of these fires. Can't quite believe this is happening. What right minded parent would let their kid out tonight? Apparently in most places there is almost zero police prescence

[RolandJP]

Most of the rioters seem to be teenagers, this is just pure opportunism dude

I stand corrected. yeah its Thugs on the loose.

[Haydn C]

Seems like it. i'll be stunned if no one dies in one of these fires. Can't quite believe this is happening. What right minded parent would let their kid out tonight? Apparently in most places there is almost zero police prescence

We could indeed have a death toll tomorrow. Reports of a woman taking a brick to the head and a man shot in Croydon.

BBC reporting that diners in The Ledbury in Nottinghill being mugged and kitchen staff coming out with knives to defend them.

No confirmation on these reports though.

[Mr MajestiK]

Most of the rioters seem to be teenagers, this is just pure opportunism dude

What does the age of the rioters have to do with anything?

What's happening at the moment inLondon is utterly horrifying but not unexpected.

A lot is being said about "sheer criminality" on the part of the looters whilst many turn a blind eye to the OG Bankers and duplicitious politicians who used taxs payers money to bail the bankers out.

The same Bankers who have gone back to awarding themselves obscene bonuses while the Coalition Government of the day instigate ever deepening cutbacks to the Public Sector, Schools, Police and Army.

This is just the beginning.

The youths just don't give a frak.

[Iangould]

First off, can I say I hope all the British CBR people and their family and friends are alright and that this all ends quickly and with no deaths and a minimum of additional property damage.

Now some thoughts on riots: they're a lot like riots. You can point to areas where they happen more frequently and certain events are sigsn that they're mroe likely in the near future.

But they're inherently unpredictable. At the same time, because they involve a social rather than a physical phenomenon there's a natural desire to explain riots and attach blame.

In a fairly brief period a few years ago, Sydney had three fairly serious riots: in the inner city suburb of Redfern, in the eastern suburb of Cronulla and in the western suburb of MacQuarie Fields.

The first occurred in a suburb with a high proportion of indigenous residents; the second occurred in a working class seaside area; the third occurred in a new lower-income development in the outer west.

In each case, people came up with explanations - all of which just happened to fit with their pre-existing views and prejudices. So Redfrern was either dirty black savages biting the hand that fed them or a justified response to 200 years of white oppression (which i'm sure was a great comfort to the people who ended up in hospital). The Cronulla riots were either the arrival of Al Qaida in Australia or an anti-Muslim pogrom by white racists. The Maquarie Fields riots were either caused by socialism leading to high unemployment and a sense of entitlement or to welfare cuts and police brutality.

In each case there was an inciting incident: in one an assault on several Anglo Aussies by some Lebanese Australians in both of the others, deaths of people in police custody or whiel beign pursued by police.

The reality is that riots happen - and after the event people come up with explanations as to why.

The London riots will be blamed on the economy - but the Paris riots happened during what was supposedly an economic boom and Roem which has much more history of public protest and which is experiencing even more severe government austerity remains calm. The triggering event in Redfern was the death of Thomas Hickey, an indigenous youth while running from the police. But in Brisbane, the percentage of indigenous people is higher; racism in the police force and in the nonindigenous community is, if anything worse, the death of Boorie Taylor, another young Aboriginal man who died while actually in police custody didn't trigger a riot.

So can we all, maybe, just for once hold off on the blame game and the point scoring and accept that, in the first isntance. the people responsible for the rioting are the people doing the rioting - not the police, not the government and not the social class, community or ethnic or religious group to which they belong.

[Rasputin9977]

What does the age of the rioters have to do with anything?

What's happening at the moment inLondon is utterly horrifying but not unexpected.

A lot is being said about "sheer criminality" on the part of the looters whilst many turn a blind eye to the OG Bankers and duplicitious politicians who used taxs payers money to bail the bankers out.

The same Bankers who have gone back to awarding themselves obscene bonuses while the Coalition Government of the day instigate ever deepening cutbacks to the Public Sector, Schools, Police and Army.

This is just the beginning.

The youths just don't give a frak.
The answer isnt to burn and loot your city. What these people are doing is stupid.

[Charles RB]

My sister shops in Brixton (and there was rumour the riots were coming up to her area) and I know people living near Deptford, so it's a wee bit eerie.

And reports of it in Brum, Bradford, Leeds, Herefordshire...



Acts like this confound me. After all, what do the rioters hope to gain by burning/destroying other people's property?

It's a laugh and they get free swag out of it. Tonight and last night are pretty blatantly targeted looting in London, bollocks that has anything to do with the Duggan killing.

Though (via Paul) it now comes out that Duggan hadn't drawn his gun when he was shot (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/police-attack-london-burns), so that's definately going to be political.

[Charles RB]

100 arrested in Birmingham, ambulances called out for 24 incidents, a police station set on fire, looting still going on. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-14452468)

Residents in Peckham report random attacks on people by the rioters. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14450557)

[Nick Soapdish]

Seems like it. i'll be stunned if no one dies in one of these fires. Can't quite believe this is happening. What right minded parent would let their kid out tonight? Apparently in most places there is almost zero police prescence

I assume that any kids rioting aren't listening to their parents right now.


First off, can I say I hope all the British CBR people and their family and friends are alright and that this all ends quickly and with no deaths and a minimum of additional property damage.

Now some thoughts on riots: they're a lot like riots. You can point to areas where they happen more frequently and certain events are sigsn that they're mroe likely in the near future.


Thanks for clarifying. :)

But yeah, all of what you said makes sense.

[Iangould]

Now some thoughts on riots: they're a lot like riots.

Should have read "they're a lot like earthquakes".

[Nick Soapdish]

My sister shops in Brixton (and there was rumour the riots were coming up to her area) and I know people living near Deptford, so it's a wee bit eerie.

And reports of it in Brum, Bradford, Leeds, Herefordshire...



It's a laugh and they get free swag out of it. Tonight and last night are pretty blatantly targeted looting in London, bollocks that has anything to do with the Duggan killing.

Though (via Paul) it now comes out that Duggan hadn't drawn his gun when he was shot (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/police-attack-london-burns), so that's definately going to be political.

"The latest developments come as one community organiser suggested the handgun recovered was found in a sock and therefore not ready for use."

That doesn't sound particularly authoritative. Is it just somebody speculating?

[Matt]

That news story strongly suggests that those involved are, quite bluntly, idiots or simply ignorant.

If a person has a history of gun related violence, such as it appears Duggan has, then it should be no surprise that he ends up getting shot himself. If Police had reasonable suspicion that they were under attack or that the suspect was armed and reaching for a weapon ...

A crowd of 100 people then go to a Police station demanding to see a senior officer in regards to the shooting. Anyone should know that Officers are not allowed to speak on on-going investigations, as it has a tendency to screw things up. Also going in such numbers doesn't indicate a wish to have a civil discussion - it speaks more of a photo opportunity or the start of an excuse to cause trouble.

[Paul McEnery]

That news story strongly suggests that those involved are, quite bluntly, idiots or simply ignorant.

If a person has a history of gun related violence, such as it appears Duggan has, then it should be no surprise that he ends up getting shot himself. If Police had reasonable suspicion that they were under attack or that the suspect was armed and reaching for a weapon ...

A crowd of 100 people then go to a Police station demanding to see a senior officer in regards to the shooting. Anyone should know that Officers are not allowed to speak on on-going investigations, as it has a tendency to screw things up. Also going in such numbers doesn't indicate a wish to have a civil discussion - it speaks more of a photo opportunity or the start of an excuse to cause trouble.

Which part of "the police flat out lied about him shooting first" did you miss?

[Matt]

We do not know that yet, the investigation is still under-way.

It is also suggested that they did come under fire from somewhere, friendly fire or not is yet to be determined, then the Police officers had a right to protect themselves. They had a right to protect themselves even if they had reasonable suspicion that the suspect was reaching for a firearm - and one was found on the scene.

And regardless, it offers no excuse for the actions of any those currently rioting in any way what-so-ever.

[Iangould]

Libyan expats on Twitter say they're getting phone calls from relatives in Libya asking if they're safe in London.

[the4thpip]

First rule of social psychology: Never trust the easy answers.

Neither saying "it's the economy, stupid" nor just calling those rioters idiots and apes will be doing this phenomenon justice - even though both statements probably carry a fraction of the truth in them.

Still, actions like these don't happen in a vacuum. And if people don't look for reasons, this will happen again and again.

Questions I think need looking at:

Why this disconnect from their own neighborhoods, that allows them to bring so much destruction?

What has been done to make them feel included in their communities?

Is there a sufficient amount of youth community centers and cultural programs in schools?

Do the police have scientifically sound deescalation strategies and training?

Do the police receive sensitivity training in dealing with different groups?

Are there qualification programs in place offering silver linings to disadvantaged youths and the unemployed?

Were the recent austerity measures fair and communicated that way by politicians?

Did the Morrissey concert in Brixton make things worse? (just kidding on that one).

Trying to find a single cause will fail. But analyzing various causes is not the same as "finger pointing" and it needs to be done.

(speaking as a psychologist and licensed violence prevention trainer with 12 years job experience working with disadvantaged youths.)

[Haydn C]

I had to go and get some sleep at 1am but it doesn't look like things got much better in the early hours.

I hear there was trouble as far afield as Nottingham.

[TheDreamingCelestial]

Not to support any outright hostility to other human beings, or anything; but to see people who have probably never gone to bed with an empty stomach in their lives act all morally superior towards people who are literally under fire is just disgusting.

This I will quote for truth:


What does the age of the rioters have to do with anything?

What's happening at the moment inLondon is utterly horrifying but not unexpected.

A lot is being said about "sheer criminality" on the part of the looters whilst many turn a blind eye to the OG Bankers and duplicitious politicians who used taxs payers money to bail the bankers out.

The same Bankers who have gone back to awarding themselves obscene bonuses while the Coalition Government of the day instigate ever deepening cutbacks to the Public Sector, Schools, Police and Army.

This is just the beginning.

The youths just don't give a frak.

Thanks for trying to be the voice of reason (along with the4thpip) in a craze of utter alienation from fellow human beings.. :frown:

[zryson]

i think the riots are disgusting but some people want to watch the world burn. the military should be called out.

[the4thpip]

i think the riots are disgusting but some people want to watch the world burn. the military should be called out.

"We have to strike now, sir! Annihilate! Kill! Kill! Kill! Kill!"

http://us.ent4.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/columbia_pictures/crazy_in_alabama/rod_steiger/crazy.jpg

[the4thpip]

There is a context to London's riots that can't be ignored (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/context-london-riots)

Good Guardian piece.

[king mob]

As the riots seemingly have nothing to do with politics, it probably deserves it's own talking space.

Actually the background of these riots is hugely political, even if the actions are just blind vandalism and looting.


Acts like this confound me. After all, what do the rioters hope to gain by burning/destroying other people's property?
They will be taken less seriously after this. Hatred for them seems rather intense because of the riots.

I know of one community centre here in Bristol trashed after last night's riots. This was a building for local people funded by local people, myself included and I'm fucked off at these people for what they did. However do note that a lot of these people don't live in the areas they're trashing.

[king mob]

Guess they might have to reverse some of those cuts to the police then!

A mate pointed out the senior leadership of the Met all quit over the phone hacking scandal and what's in place now is just a temporary leadership which may explain the utter lack of leadership and co-ordination from the Met compared to other forces in the UK.

I can't see Cameron dealing with this. This is beyond him.

[king mob]

They're only legal in Northern Ireland as I understand it. I may be wrong though, it could just be that the PSNI are the only UK force equipped with them.

You're right. It'd need the approval of the PM and Home Secretary to be used on the mainland.

[king mob]

That news story strongly suggests that those involved are, quite bluntly, idiots or simply ignorant.

If a person has a history of gun related violence, such as it appears Duggan has, then it should be no surprise that he ends up getting shot himself. If Police had reasonable suspicion that they were under attack or that the suspect was armed and reaching for a weapon ...


He had a gun in his sock, which is not excusing him carrying a weapon, but the officer who was shot was shot by a police weapon. The initial story from the Met was he drew his gun and fired at the police which is now shown to be a lie.

The Met have form for this type of thing.

A crowd of 100 people then go to a Police station demanding to see a senior officer in regards to the shooting. Anyone should know that Officers are not allowed to speak on on-going investigations, as it has a tendency to screw things up. Also going in such numbers doesn't indicate a wish to have a civil discussion - it speaks more of a photo opportunity or the start of an excuse to cause trouble.


The initial protest was a peaceful one, and Met officers do speak out all the time on cases, though not obviously in detail. What's missing is how it turned from a peaceful protest to riots breaking out all across the UK.

[the4thpip]

Headline from September 2010:
Theresa May: We can cut police budget without risking violent unrest (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/sep/15/theresa-may-cut-police-budget-without-violent-unrest)


The home secretary, Theresa May, has dismissed fears that deep spending cuts could undermine the ability of the police to tackle possible civil unrest, and insisted the British did not respond to austerity by rioting on the streets.

[king mob]

Questions I think need looking at:

Why this disconnect from their own neighborhoods, that allows them to bring so much destruction?

I can speak for what happened last night in Bristol.

Many of those rioting round where I live last night weren't from the area. This was the case back in the spring when we had riots in Stokes Crof (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/apr/22/bristol-riot-police-injured)t, and it was the same last night. In fact it probably was some of the same people. In many ways those riots here a few months back were a warm-up for this weeks violence.


What has been done to make them feel included in their communities?

In a lot of cases, a lot. However you have people completely dislocated from society in general, and considering we've seen our ruling elite get away with an awful lot ranging from MP's defrauding expenses, to bankers screwing the country to the Met killing people, then there's no wonder some people don't care about the rule of law.


Is there a sufficient amount of youth community centers and cultural programs in schools?

No. There's also a problem that when the council do lay on programmes to help integrate a community you have some in the immigrant community refusing to participate as a section of the Polish community did a few years back when the council here laid on free English lessons. But again, you have these incoming communities being shunned in some cases by the established community, especially in poorer areas.

Essentially things have been getting worse since Labour started cutting local services in December 2008, and the coalition upped that rate of cuts in the spring. These swinging cuts are now biting and may play a part in these events, but it doesn't excuse the sort of violence I saw this morning.


Do the police have scientifically sound deescalation strategies and training?

Here in Bristol yes, not sure about other forces. The police here have been splendid in community policing in areas like St. Paul's which suffers from poverty and is still a multiracial area.


Do the police receive sensitivity training in dealing with different groups?

They do here in Bristol.


Are there qualification programs in place offering silver linings to disadvantaged youths and the unemployed?


Not any more.



Were the recent austerity measures fair and communicated that way by politicians?

Fuck no. When you've got multi millionaires in the cabinet screwing the country by avoiding and evading tax (Gideon Osborne) and bleating 'we're all in it together' when we're clearly bloody not, then you've got a problem waiting to happen. Nick Clegg himself pointed this out before the election last year.


Trying to find a single cause will fail. But analyzing various causes is not the same as "finger pointing" and it needs to be done.

It does but right now the priority is stopping this and then we can sort things out.

[king mob]

Headline from September 2010:
Theresa May: We can cut police budget without risking violent unrest (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/sep/15/theresa-may-cut-police-budget-without-violent-unrest)

May's one of the worst Home Secretary's we've had since the last one, but at least she got up off her arse and started doing her job on Sunday. Cameron, Clegg, Milliband, and Johnson waited til yesterday to break off their holidays which is the subject of today's cartoon from Martin Rowson.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/8/8/1312826249812/09.08.11-Martin-Rowson-on-006.jpg

In case anyone thinks this is going away there's police sirens passing my flat every half hour or so. The M32 (the main motorway in and out of Bristol) has police cordons waiting to close it again, and the streets just down the road from me are trashed again.

I've got a mate in Northampton saying there were riots there, and Nottingham also had riots. It seems to be spreading north, but as yet, no riots in Wales or Scotland.

[the4thpip]

From what I am reading on Twitter, Cameron is hitting all the wrong notes in his statement.

[Haydn C]

From what I am reading on Twitter, Cameron is hitting all the wrong notes in his statement.

My lack of surprise knows no bounds.

Spoke to my brother earlier, his girlfriend is a Met police officer and has been called in from leave today, there will be around 16000 officers ready for tonight.
Two of her friends have lost their flat in a fire.

[Iangould]

It occurs to me that like a bayonet a police truncheon is a tool with a worker on either end.

[Iangould]

When all this shakes out I will be interested to know to what extent, if any, organized football 'firms" have been involved in these events.

[king mob]

From what I am reading on Twitter, Cameron is hitting all the wrong notes in his statement.

Like you wouldn't believe.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/david-cameron-announces-recall-parliament

They're using special constables to make these numbers up. Bristol police are pulling in officers from Wales. There simply isn't enough police since the cuts to deal with this. Same goes for the fire service and the NHS.

Things are pushed to the utter limit. Cameron has to shoulder the blame for that.

Frankly it's communities starting to pull together who are working now to stop this, and I'm also frankly amazed nobody has died yet.

[king mob]

It occurs to me that like a bayonet a police truncheon is a tool with a worker on either end.

Thing is Ian, some of these people are just fucking scum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I want to know what sort of human being does shite like this.

[BlairH]

So can we all, maybe, just for once hold off on the blame game and the point scoring and accept that, in the first isntance. the people responsible for the rioting are the people doing the rioting - not the police, not the government and not the social class, community or ethnic or religious group to which they belong.

Agreed, what we're seeing here is a complete and utter breakdown of individul responsibility. I've never seen such a base display of pure id, so close to home in my lifetime. The coal miner strike happened before I was born -of course-, and that probably generated a bit more unrest, especially here in Scotland, but at least the parties involved had formed around the core of a cause.

What's particularly scary is that there is a group on Facebook threatening to kick things off in Glasgow.

[Iangould]

Frankly it's communities starting to pull together who are working now to stop this, and I'm also frankly amazed nobody has died yet.


While rioters took to the underground paths of BlackBerry Messenger to organize, the highly spreadable mediums of Twitter and Facebook have shown to be the perfect platforms for mobilizing cleanup organizers and followers in the early aftermath of the rioting.

For the most part, organization has been very smooth, with a few key hubs across social platforms taking root. The @RiotCleanup Twitter page has amassed more than 50,000 followers in less than 10 hours and is consistently broadcasting cleanup locations and times, along with other pertinent information regarding the initiative.
...

Beyond the riot cleanup, another effort to catch and prosecute looters has taken root, with the Tumblr account “Catch A Looter” accepting and posting images of looters for identification.

For Londoners like Heather Taylor and Cheska Moon (pictured above), deciding to volunteer time to help rebuild their community happened in the matter of minutes.

Taylor told Mashable, “I saw the [#riotcleanup] hashtag spring up and thought, ‘We need to have a cleanup in Clapham.’ So, [I] set the time for 9:00 at Nandos, which got passed around.” About 400 volunteers showed up to the cleanup in Clapham, and the local Sainsbury’s pitched in by distributing food to volunteers, Taylor told us.

Taylor is just one of thousands of volunteers spreading word of the cleanup initiatives that are taking place all over London."

link (http://mashable.com/2011/08/09/riot-cleanup-london/)

Keep Calm and Carry On.

[Iangould]

I've lost count of the number of idiots on Twitter comparing Libya and London.

When the RAF starts bombing Tottenham they'll have half a point.

[king mob]

When all this shakes out I will be interested to know to what extent, if any, organized football 'firms" have been involved in these events.

Probably not an awful lot as frankly they don't have the numbers they used to 20 years ago. This is people with fuck all to lose going on a spree of destruction.

[king mob]

Vince Cable has said this interview with Nick Clegg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YItK1izQIwo&feature=player_embedded#at=36) never happened and if it did, he never said what he's on film actually saying.

[king mob]

It's also started kicking off here in Bristol again. Fucking joy.

[king mob]

This is from last night in Croydon.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/08/article-2023874-0D5B629200000578-550_964x639.jpg

This was the picture taken by the local paper of a street 200 yards away from where I live.

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/images/localpeople/ugc-images/275775/Article/images/13095672/3084388.png

[king mob]

Some recent Tweets. The first one isn't good.

@channel4news: A 26-year-old man shot in a car during riots in Croydon last night has died in hospital, police say.

@SkyNewsTicker: Leaked Downing St memo reveals PM's aide suggested #UKRiots "good time to relaunch Big Society yet again".

@metpoliceuk: 24 hours there will now be 16,000 police officers on duty in London

[Puppetmaker Grae]

Given the young age of some of the looters, it can't be discounted that this has kicked-off a couple of weeks into the school summer holidays. Since youth leisure services are usually among the first things cut when councils are trimming budgets, a couple of weeks of hot weather and boredom do not make a good combination.

[king mob]

Given the young age of some of the looters, it can't be discounted that this has kicked-off a couple of weeks into the school summer holidays. Since youth leisure services are usually among the first things cut when councils are trimming budgets, a couple of weeks of hot weather and boredom do not make a good combination.

That might explain why nothing's happened yet in Scotland as they're coming to the end of their school holidays, but it doesn't explain the sheer brutality you can see in some of the images coming from the riots across the country.

[Libaax]

That Guardian article was good.

I liked this part:

When you look at the figures for deaths in police custody (at least 333 since 1998 and not a single conviction of any police officer for any of them), then the IPCC and the courts are seen by many, quite reasonably, to be protecting the police rather than the people.


Thats shocking 333 and not a single conviction. There is no point to Law and order if the police can commit crime without being punished.

[zryson]

That might explain why nothing's happened yet in Scotland as they're coming to the end of their school holidays, but it doesn't explain the sheer brutality you can see in some of the images coming from the riots across the country.

we live in an angry and stressed out society. when i talk to people about it, they all agree, but then dont want to talk about it. and humans at their worst, are terrible things to witness. i hope the situation improves. i dont subscribe to all the bleeding hearts who say we have to understand why people are doing this either. some people just live to make others miserable.

[the4thpip]

That might explain why nothing's happened yet in Scotland as they're coming to the end of their school holidays, but it doesn't explain the sheer brutality you can see in some of the images coming from the riots across the country.

As I keep saying: Don't expect one partial explanation to explain the entire phenomenon.

[the4thpip]

we live in an angry and stressed out society. when i talk to people about it, they all agree, but then dont want to talk about it. and humans at their worst, are terrible things to witness. i hope the situation improves. i dont subscribe to all the bleeding hearts who say we have to understand why people are doing this either. some people just live to make others miserable.

So you are saying it is a lot easier to deal with problems when one does not attempt to understand their causes?

[Iangould]

That Guardian article was good.

I liked this part:

When you look at the figures for deaths in police custody (at least 333 since 1998 and not a single conviction of any police officer for any of them), then the IPCC and the courts are seen by many, quite reasonably, to be protecting the police rather than the people.


Thats shocking 333 and not a single conviction. There is no point to Law and order if the police can commit crime without being punished.

Most deaths in custody involve deaths from natural causes or pre-existing injuries.

The second-most common cause, at least here in Australia, is suicide.

A significant number also involve fights between prisoners.

The problem with the cases involving crimes committed by police is that there are seldom if ever independent witnesses and contrary to what CSI may have told you, forensic evidence is often ambivalent.

[alf_to_the_rescue]

Civilisation is doing what they can.

http://catchalooter.tumblr.com/post/8685233910

http://www.riotcleanup.co.uk/

[king mob]

That Guardian article was good.

I liked this part:

When you look at the figures for deaths in police custody (at least 333 since 1998 and not a single conviction of any police officer for any of them), then the IPCC and the courts are seen by many, quite reasonably, to be protecting the police rather than the people.


Thats shocking 333 and not a single conviction. There is no point to Law and order if the police can commit crime without being punished.

It's not just the deaths, it's the accidents such as the one which destroyed Sheena MacDonald's life. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3399825.stm)

This is what I mean when I say some of these people don't care about the rule of law because they see those in authority getting away with it.

[king mob]

Hackney is apparently experiencing attacks on homes and businesses now, while the Met are now considering the use of plastic bullets. Also, riot police from Greater Manchester Police are being drafted to help London out, which obviously leaves the North West exposed.

[zryson]

Most deaths in custody involve deaths from natural causes or pre-existing injuries.

The second-most common cause, at least here in Australia, is suicide.

A significant number also involve fights between prisoners.

The problem with the cases involving crimes committed by police is that there are seldom if ever independent witnesses and contrary to what CSI may have told you, forensic evidence is often ambivalent.

well said ian! and its true what you wrote --- too often a suspicious public is all too willing to believe there must be some nasty underlying police abuse going on, when all too often its pre-existing medical conditions and suicide. but even then (some) people dont want to believe it. they seem to think that what they saw on the latest cop show or medical drama stands for what happens in real life and that everything is wrapped up into a neat package for them to decipher. unfortunately real life doesnt work that way.

[king mob]

well said ian! and its true what you wrote --- too often a suspicious public is all too willing to believe there must be some nasty underlying police abuse going on, when all too often its pre-existing medical conditions and suicide. but even then (some) people dont want to believe it. they seem to think that what they saw on the latest cop show or medical drama stands for what happens in real life and that everything is wrapped up into a neat package for them to decipher. unfortunately real life doesnt work that way.
Problem is that the Met especially have a record of covering up deaths in custody, and of course there's the Ian Tomlinson case.

[Iangould]

well said ian! and its true what you wrote --- too often a suspicious public is all too willing to believe there must be some nasty underlying police abuse going on, when all too often its pre-existing medical conditions and suicide. but even then (some) people dont want to believe it. they seem to think that what they saw on the latest cop show or medical drama stands for what happens in real life and that everything is wrapped up into a neat package for them to decipher. unfortunately real life doesnt work that way.

Out of the thousand-odd deaths investigated here there were about a dozen that were probably homicides committed by police.

Unfortunately "probably" doesn't equate with "beyond reasonable doubt".

But I'm going to stop diverting this thread now.

If anyone wants to continue this discussion start a new thread ad I'll respond when I get up in about six hours.

[king mob]

Darcus Howe doesn't help the situation by calling it an 'insurrection' and the BBC presenter here makes things worse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o&feature=player_embedded#at=53

Still, David Cameron has visited Croydon. That must be warm comfort for those who've seen their lives ruined.

[GozertheGozarian]

I've lost count of the number of idiots on Twitter comparing Libya and London.

When the RAF starts bombing Tottenham they'll have half a point.
Be happy you haven't seen the thread that compared London with the DC reboot.

[king mob]

Be happy you haven't seen the thread that compared London with the DC reboot.

Now you have to post it you know.

[king mob]

If anyone has the time it's worth listening to Richard Bacon's programme on now and what's being said on it. He has a guest talking the most sense I've heard so far.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00pstlg

And it's not Hulk Hogan.

[Iangould]

Freepers are claiming these are race riots. (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2760934/posts)

Tossers.

[king mob]

Another view of the riots near my flat last night.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/8/9/1312878957666/A-person-is-questioned-in-005.jpg

The pictures from Liverpool are worse.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/8/9/1312878955268/Rioters-in-Toxteth-Liverp-003.jpg

Thankfully it's quiet now in Bristol, but there's people walking around with rucksacks looking for trouble which is exactly what happened with the riots here back in the spring. Local community leaders are trying to get parents to keep their kids in tonight but that's not going to stop people coming from outside the area.

Oh, here's Boris Johnson finally turning up on the streets of the city he's supposed to be leading.

[king mob]

Fucking hell, Boris Johnson got his arse handed to him by the very angry residents of Clapham Junction. Hopefully the clip goes online soon so I can post it.

[alf_to_the_rescue]

The other revolution is coming.

http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg739/scaled.php?tn=0&server=739&filename=5oew.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640

http://yfrog.com/kj5oewj

[king mob]

Bloody hell. I'm agreeing with Nigel Farage, the leader of UKIP, that sticking coppers from all over the UK into London is going to overstretch things if cities like Manchester, Liverpool or Chester kick off tonight.

[Karl O'Neill]

Guess I don't have to watch La Haine again for a few years. This footage will do.
They wreaked the bookies! Nobody wreaks the bookies! Poor gamblers!

[king mob]

The sight of Boris Johnson holding a green brush and cheering on the Wombles might be something that saves his arse from looking too stupid.

[king mob]

The Castlemead area of Bristol in the city centre is being evacuated due to the police having good reason to expect a 'serious incident' soon.

[king mob]

Witness the stern and decisive leadership of Boris Johnson.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpqJGutYNcs

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Witness the stern and decisive leadership of Boris Johnson.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpqJGutYNcs


Listen to the Black Youth, Johnson.


Listen to the Black Youth. And stop being such a punk, get your shit in gear.

[Charles RB]

"The latest developments come as one community organiser suggested the handgun recovered was found in a sock and therefore not ready for use."

That doesn't sound particularly authoritative.

The physical evidence from the IPCC is pretty authoritative though, and that has bullets from a police gun embedded in a police radio - not from Duggan's gun as first assumed.





A crowd of 100 people then go to a Police station demanding to see a senior officer in regards to the shooting. Anyone should know that Officers are not allowed to speak on on-going investigations, as it has a tendency to screw things up. Also going in such numbers doesn't indicate a wish to have a civil discussion - it speaks more of a photo opportunity or the start of an excuse to cause trouble.

Seperate incidents - the riot broke out three hours after the protest and few people from the protest seem to have been involved.



Why this disconnect from their own neighborhoods, that allows them to bring so much destruction?

Residents have complained to the press that they've never seen half the youths that turn up, so that'd explain the disconnect for some of them: it's not their neighbourhood. It's someone else's. They won't have to look at the mess.


Is there a sufficient amount of youth community centers and cultural programs in schools?


Are there qualification programs in place offering silver linings to disadvantaged youths and the unemployed?

No. (And there'll be less now existing centres and shops have been trashed, but riot's aren't very smart, it's all anger and herd mentality and adrenaline)


act all morally superior towards people who are literally under fire

You know who was really literally under fire? The people who had flats over the shop in Tottenham that was burnt down, and the two people Hadyn_c knows.

Because they had to flee from their homes being set on fire. And they're now homeless.


the military should be called out.

I wouldn't do that.They're not trained for riots and crowd control, which is part of why Northern Ireland got so messy.


A mate pointed out the senior leadership of the Met all quit over the phone hacking scandal and what's in place now is just a temporary leadership which may explain the utter lack of leadership and co-ordination from the Met compared to other forces in the UK.

That'd make sense, but damn you'd think they'd have sorted that out after the first two nights...

[Charles RB]

as yet, no riots in Wales or Scotland.

And isn't that interesting, especially as Scotland and Wales are economically further in the mire than south England? And none in Northern Ireland, which has recently had some and often needs no excuse.



While rioters took to the underground paths of BlackBerry Messenger to organize, the highly spreadable mediums of Twitter and Facebook have shown to be the perfect platforms for mobilizing cleanup organizers and followers in the early aftermath of the rioting.Taylor is just one of thousands of volunteers spreading word of the cleanup initiatives that are taking place all over London."

link (http://mashable.com/2011/08/09/riot-cleanup-london/)

Keep Calm and Carry On.

Which doesn't get the same press as the rioting, but should.

[king mob]

Lots of businesses in Bristol closed early today and there's a lot of police in twon anticipating something very large tonight. From looking at the news it appears the same is true in London, Liverpool and Birmingham.

Hopefully this is all a precaution.

[Captain Clarkie]

And isn't that interesting, especially as Scotland and Wales are economically further in the mire than south England?

In fairness, that doesn't paint an accurate picture. Large areas in London are poverty stricken, but have extremely affluent areas around them - skewing economical statistical analysis.

[Captain Clarkie]

Duggan didn't shoot - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14459516

[Karl O'Neill]

I'd usually say power to the people, but seeing hoodies mugging an injured kid changes all that.

Utter scumbags.

http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16046551

[bringthenoise]

In fairness, that doesn't paint an accurate picture. Large areas in London are poverty stricken, but have extremely affluent areas around them - skewing economical statistical analysis.

I think the Welsh Assembly and Scottish Parliament also have a role to play - as they both have implemented policies which have negated or at least lessened the effect of the worst of the cuts.

[king mob]

And the helicopter returns as it starts kicking off in the city centre. Bollocks.

[king mob]

In a completely predictable move, Manchester is suffering from serious rioting while most of their serious riot officers are in London.

[RolandJP]

Please respect FT.com's ts&cs and copyright policy which allow you to: share links; copy content for personal use; & redistribute limited extracts. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights or use this link to reference the article - http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a05bb230-c2b3-11e0-8cc7-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz1UYlMJG5D

Tens of millions have been spent in the area, yet it remains among the most deprived places in England. In Granby, the ward where the worst disturbances happened, 14.7 per cent of adults are claiming unemployment benefits, three times the national average. Leo King-Say, 21, a youth worker in the area, said: “You don’t see people rioting in Chelsea, do you? Food’s going up, electricity’s going up, people are surviving on nothing, nothing.”

He said that while relations with community police were good, the city’s Matrix squad, which deals with gun crime, continued to harass young people.

you think??

http://blog.old-and-bold.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/merseyside-police-matrix-officers-pose.jpg

[BlairH]

Matrix squad

http://uk.movieposter.com/posters/archive/main/67/MPW-33833

[king mob]

So we've got Manchester and West Bromwich to add to the list of cities who have experienced rioting. Bristol is quiet after the police & members of the local community told some kids where to go, but several local pubs have closed as they anticipate the worst tonight.

[king mob]

Dunno about that. During the LA riots, the national guard, army and marines were deployed to LA.

This isn't LA.

[RolandJP]

http://uk.movieposter.com/posters/archive/main/67/MPW-33833

Bunch of Corrupt Thugs with Badges. ( Well some of them anyway)

[Karl O'Neill]

The biggest riot I have seen in Dublin was back in 2006 when the unionists wanted to march in the city. Still, nothing compared to London.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cayhvNeElK4&feature=fvst

[Vic Vega]

Man, this is a nightmare.

Whatever happened with Duggan, this isn't the answer(not saying that his shooting is even the main cause of all this).

Now the public in the interests of thier own safety is going to call for even sterner measures and the Police will only be too happy to comply. Leading to more Duggans down the road.

I hope I'm wrong about this.

[RolandJP]

Man, this is a nightmare.

Whatever happened with Duggan, this isn't the answer(not saying that his shooting is even the main cause of all this).

Now the public in the interests of thier own safety is going to call for even sterner measures and the Police will only be too happy to comply. Leading to more Duggans down the road.

I hope I'm wrong about this.

This type of thing happens every 20 or so years. Society needs a reboot every now and then, to delete the older operating system.

People choose if it will be a peaceful upgrade or a violent one.

[Captain Clarkie]

One thing is certain, this isn't a simple enough situation to summarise in a few posts.

[Nick Soapdish]

Dunno about that. During the LA riots, the national guard, army and marines were deployed to LA.

Looks like I was wrong so ignore the first part of my objection. But I think that Clarkie is right.

[Vic Vega]

This type of thing happens every 20 or so years. Society needs a reboot every now and then, to delete the older operating system.

People choose if it will be a peaceful upgrade or a violent one.

Upgrade to what?

This won't change a damn thing. This is unfocused rage and thuggery. There is nothng political about jumping a handicapped dude for his money.

[BlairH]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8691087/London-riots-community-clean-up-hit-by-safety-rules.html

Cliff-Notes:

You humans and your naive concepts of "community" and "self reliance"! Don't you realise you might get cut?

[RolandJP]

Upgrade to what?

This won't change a damn thing. This is unfocused rage and thuggery. There is nothng political about jumping a handicapped dude for his money.

The last time there were riots. The Police added more cops, some of which were minorities, women and the like that lived in those disenfranchised neighborhoods and it made a difference.

Also, we are talking about the same country that had riots over increased Student admission fees. The English are used to discourse they will sort it out.

[The Surrealist]

This type of thing happens every 20 or so years. Society needs a reboot every now and then, to delete the older operating system.

It's endemic to capitalist culture now. IMO nothing is deleted, it always winds up the same-old same-old crud. At best, the "new" system is always just a reformatted version of the old one.


People choose if it will be a peaceful upgrade or a violent one.

Or the Jackboot pacifies the people forcibly and the same thing happens 20 yrs later.

[king mob]

A mate on Facebook is saying he's spotted crowds of kids and police scrapping in Cardiff. Nothing near the scale of London, Liverpool or Bristol as it seems the police have given them a bit of a kicking.

[Rasputin9977]

Man, this is a nightmare.

Whatever happened with Duggan, this isn't the answer(not saying that his shooting is even the main cause of all this).

Now the public in the interests of thier own safety is going to call for even sterner measures and the Police will only be too happy to comply. Leading to more Duggans down the road.

I hope I'm wrong about this.

If people choose to behave like rabid dogs then they should be treated like rabid dogs.

[king mob]

If people choose to behave like rabid dogs then they should be treated like rabid dogs.

That's going to really help the situation isn't it? We don't need macho tossers chucking in daft suggestions when we've got those peoples in government.

[king mob]

Bristol is quiet, almost too quiet....

http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/large/368775970.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJF3XCCKACR3QDMOA&Expires=1312920601&Signature=o2blQqlpcUwtp76tbqW9uz5ckMc%3D

[Karl O'Neill]

It's a trap!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RolandJP]

It's a trap!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dddAi8FF3F4

[Captain Clarkie]

If people choose to behave like rabid dogs then they should be treated like rabid dogs.

There's been a lot of running around biting people transmiting disease whilst foaming at the mouth has there? And you're advocating taking them all behind the barn and shooting them? You're either saying this literally and still posting moronic hyperbole, or your command of metaphor is as poor as Jilly Cooper. I'm inclined to think it's a little from column A and a little from column Twat. BUT I COULD BE WRONG!

[Nick Soapdish]

There's been a lot of running around biting people transmiting disease whilst foaming at the mouth has there? And you're advocating taking them all behind the barn and shooting them? You're either saying this literally and still posting moronic hyperbole, or your command of metaphor is as poor as Jilly Cooper. I'm inclined to think it's a little from column A and a little from column Twat. BUT I COULD BE WRONG!

http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/photoshop/8/9/3/72893_slide.jpg?v=1

[king mob]

Not a sniff of trouble here in Bristol so far. Police making themselves known everywhere, and in St. Paul's community leaders are apparently dragging kids to their homes.

It's looking good. Sadly the same can't be said elsewhere.

[king mob]

Local communities in London are standing up against the hooligans and rioters. The most bizarre example of what-the-fuckery is this picture of Millwall fans protecting their local street.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/full/368777860.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJF3XCCKACR3QDMOA&Expires=1312922874&Signature=RG7%2BRwBA9rJ1U%2BSToc1dGJ3JeFs%3D

[Karl O'Neill]

Red x.Post the pic again.

[thehod]

If anyone has SKY, channel 847 has images from Birmingham, and its freaking nuts.

Still, London seems quiet, but then 16,000 coppers has a tendency to do that.

More police leads to less trouble? Well that's just crazy talk, isn't Teresa May?

[Captain Clarkie]

Teresa May... be a complete fuckwit. You decide!

[ocelotrevs]

It's sickening. Seeing my hometown being trashed.
Disgusting sights.

[Vic Vega]

Red x.Post the pic again.

I think he means this pic.

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpohev1RjC1r1nbmio1_400.jpg

I got it from here:

http://jacksmusic.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/millwall-fans-protect-eltham-high-street-this-is-the-spirit-these-people-are-stopping-the-looters/

[Spike-X]

i dont subscribe to all the bleeding hearts who say we have to understand why people are doing this either.

How is it "bleeding heart" to try and figure out how/why something bad happened, in order to try and stop it from happening again?

[Haydn C]

Reports coming in that Canning Circus police station in Nottingham has been firebombed. No confirmation of how bad it is yet.

There seems to be more localised small scale trouble in London, anyone heard any accurate news on the situation there?

[thehod]

Nick Griffin is being his usual cockish self on twitter, and is coming close to disgusting me almost as much as the looters by attempting to turn this into a race war.

[Haydn C]

Nick Griffin is being his usual cockish self on twitter, and is coming close to disgusting me almost as much as the looters by attempting to turn this into a race war.

Do you think he will have the courage of his warped convictions and go out and confront the rioters?

[Captain Clarkie]

It's a mispelling, I'd imagine it was genuine concern over Robert Wagner and Stefanie Powers getting together, because then, it was Moider!

[thehod]

How is it "bleeding heart" to try and figure out how/why something bad happened, in order to try and stop it from happening again?

Spike, you don't understand.

There is no difference between the meanings of the word "understand" and "excuse".

Just follow the crowd, call them animals, and display disgust at the mob mentality, and miss the utter irony of it all whilst you're at it.

[Karl O'Neill]

I think he means this pic.

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpohev1RjC1r1nbmio1_400.jpg

I got it from here:

http://jacksmusic.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/millwall-fans-protect-eltham-high-street-this-is-the-spirit-these-people-are-stopping-the-looters/

It's good to see football nuts are good for something. Fair play to them.

[Paul McEnery]

How is it "bleeding heart" to try and figure out how/why something bad happened, in order to try and stop it from happening again?

I think when right-wingers say "bleeding heart", they usually mean a heart that actually pumps blood.

It's a curiosity to them.

[Spike-X]

I'm inclined to think it's a little from column A and a little from column Twat. BUT I COULD BE WRONG!

*puts down water bottle*

Fuck, that was a near miss for my keyboard.

[Captain Clarkie]

I think when right-wingers say "bleeding heart", they usually mean a heart that actually pumps blood.

It's a curiosity to them.

As a language expert, I'd imagine the reporting would be a field day for you. This is happening faster than the news can be reported, do you think unwitting NLP is a factor in broadcasts?

[Paul McEnery]

As a language expert, I'd imagine the reporting would be a field day for you. This is happening faster than the news can be reported, do you think unwitting NLP is a factor in broadcasts?

Say wha?
...

[Monty_Cristo]

has it been 28 Days Later since the start of the rioting, yet? and is Cillian ok?!

[Captain Clarkie]

Say wha?
...

Alright, I may be being a bit mad again, but I noticed after watching BBC and then Channel 4 that Cameron came back from his holiday in the former, and came back from his Tuscan holiday in the latter. You being a language expert (ignorant layman alert), I thought that was an interesting effect of language. The first is a holiday, the second is a posh holiday.
This made me think about the language used in describing the riots from 'thugs' to 'insurrection', and languages power in conveying information, and how much overt meaning is underpinned by 'sneakier', intended or otherwise, implied meaning. It then made me think about terms of reference being a linguistic battleground that I have no idea about, terrain or objective. Does this make sense? (probably not)

[BlairH]

Nick Griffin is being his usual cockish self on twitter, and is coming close to disgusting me almost as much as the looters by attempting to turn this into a race war.

Oppourtunists never let a tragedy go to waste.

[Motormouse]

Reminds me of the violent feral kids from Cathederal Plaza in Logans Run

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/4263/muscle11ki.jpg


Also seen lots of reports on face book of large gangs of adults patroling their areas (in East London anyway) ready to give an old skool beating to any looters they see, could be part of the reason that London is so quiet tonight (that and the 16'000 police) Seems that the most trouble tonight hasd moved to Manchester.

[Captain Clarkie]

has it been 28 Days Later since the start of the rioting, yet? and is Cillian ok?!

*Shortpack*

[BlairH]

has it been 28 Days Later since the start of the rioting, yet? and is Cillian ok?!

Have you checked Christopher Nolan's sock drawer? He's usually in there somewhere, next to the Hans Zimmer.

[BlairH]

Fear not citizens! The industry in which I now work will help pick up the tab for this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14458505

[Captain Clarkie]

Fear not citizens! The industry in which I now work will help pick up the tab for this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14458505

You work in Insurance?


'Elephants and Admirals sell insurance day to day, 0% interest, that's what they have when you make a claim'

[Spike-X]

Fear not citizens! The industry in which I now work will help pick up the tab for this:

Reply A: I should hope so. That is, after all, what you're for.

Reply B: You're a lawyer for an insurance company? Because being a regular lawyer just wasn't evil enough?

Reply C: Welcome back Blair! *hugz*

[BlairH]

You work in Insurance?


Indeed.

I'm a technical & compliance guru. I deal with FSA regulations, policy wordings, contract wordings, etc.

Our firm will not be affected by this, since we mainly specialise in Insurance Backed Guarantees for home improvements and the like.

[Michael P]

I think when right-wingers say "bleeding heart", they usually mean a heart that actually pumps blood.

It's a curiosity to them.

The first time I encountered the term "bleeding heart," it was being used by the Punisher to describe the superheroes who had a problem with him killing people. So that colored my opinion of the term a bit. And the people who use it.

[Captain Clarkie]

The first time I encountered the term "bleeding heart," it was being used by the Punisher to describe the superheroes who had a problem with him killing people. So that colored my opinion of the term a bit. And the people who use it.

Ah Frank Castle, practically a new Xeno.

[BlairH]

Reply A: I should hope so. That is, after all, what you're for.
I agree 100%


Reply B: You're a lawyer for an insurance company? Because being a regular lawyer just wasn't evil enough?
It's a small, family run business! Honest Gov'!


Reply C: Welcome back Blair! *hugz*
Thank you! *hugz back*

[Captain Clarkie]

I have issues with you not remaining disguised, killing the innocent etc , but I can get past that if you can mr ibn la-ahad.

[Iangould]

has it been 28 Days Later since the start of the rioting, yet? and is Cillian ok?!

I nearly made that comparison earlier.

[Iangould]

BlairH: are you still a Territorial?

Have you heard anything about the TA maybe being called up?

[doolbnoom]

i really had nothing to say, i hadn't seen the news in the last few days, but i did catch the [thugs] rioting/looting/smashing store businesses and fighting with the riot police finally and other footage and pics.

i just have to say rioting will occur in America when snack food runs out... occasionally i need to indulge my taste buds. we all do, don't we?

joe strummer never lived to see the day when he was singing "London's Burning" however, he didn't mean it like this, i'm sure.

[Iangould]

Forbidden Planet in Manchester has been vandalized. (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/08/09/forbidden-planet-in-manchester-looted-by-rioters/)

By comparison with many other businesses they appear to have gotten off relatively lightly - windows damaged but not destroyed and it looks like nobody got inside the actual shop.

[Spike-X]

From what I've read, the one type of business the rioters have been leaving alone is bookshops. I guess there's absolutely nothing of value there for them.

[mikekerrIII]

This wrong on so many level.

What compels people to act this way?

Poverty.
Demoralization.
Destabilization.
Crisis.

People have lost jobs and are becoming desperate and Angry. They don't have the money or wherewithal to rant online. Or go to Tea Party Rallies.

Im not talking about the ones taking advantage to loot. (when they obviously have enough money to pay Verizon, Sprint & Virgin Mobile.
What make peole act that way?

Greed
A lack of basic morals
A lack of respect for others and their property

And above all being stupid enough to think that burning down the neighborhood will make it a better place

[Paul McEnery]

What make peole act that way?

Greed
A lack of basic morals
A lack of respect for others and their property

And above all being stupid enough to think that burning down the neighborhood will make it a better place

Wow. Sounds exactly like the American foreign policy you defend at every turn.

Also sounds like the wealthy people in England who've screwed the country over so much that the people in the rioting areas feel they have nothing to lose.

[mikekerrIII]

Wow. Sounds exactly like the American foreign policy you defend at every turn.

Also sounds like the wealthy people in England who've screwed the country over so much that the people in the rioting areas feel they have nothing to lose.

Typical far left BS blaming society or govermetn for the action of thugs.

These folks don't seem to be fighting for anything except what fun they can have in the destructuion of other peoples property and what they can steal

[mikekerrIII]

Wow. Sounds exactly like the American foreign policy you defend at every turn.

Also sounds like the wealthy people in England who've screwed the country over so much that the people in the rioting areas feel they have nothing to lose.

Typical far left BS blaming society or govermetn for the action of thugs.

These folks don't seem to be fighting for anything except what fun they can have in the destruction of other peoples property and what they can steal

[Paul McEnery]

Typical far left BS blaming society or govermetn for the action of thugs.


When I want lessons on politics and morality from a supporter of genocide, I'll ask for it.

[Paul McEnery]

In the meantime, let's talk like grown-ups.

What we've got here is a structural problem in England that's so obvious even David Cameron caught a whiff of it. That's why he came up with his big idea: Big Society. Which jerks on his staff even recommended relaunching on the back of the riots.

Big Society was, for those who didn't catch it the first, second or third time, an attempt to encourage greater social participation. This at the same time that government cuts were taking away funding from social necessities like libraries and the healthcare system, and adding nine grand annual to the burden of students in further education.

Which made it perfectly obvious what he really meant. The wealthy don't want to pay for things any more, so you'll have to do these full time jobs for yourself for no pay. Which shouldn't be too hard, because we've fucked the economy so hard there'll be plenty of unemployed to go round. And we're talking services here that can reach the underclass -- massively psychologically damaged by a permanent poverty and a total disconnect from the commonality of society -- and provide them with the basic remediation necessary to be able to be part of society.

This is pretty much last straw time. Successive governments, including Blair's New Labour, have been playing to the rich and the upper middle class since 1980. Wealth has become increasingly stratified; popular democracy -- including London's democratically-elected assembly, and even the right to vote itself, with the poll tax -- went under the axe.

Cameron's Big Society reminds us of Thatcher's words: There's no such thing as society. We shouldn't be much surprised that any sense of commonality has been successively destroyed, even as the culture of England, like the wealth of England, became increasingly wrapped up in property.

House prices went through the roof, which of course meant housing prices went through the roof (and lets not forget that there was the selling off of public housing because property ought to be something that turns a profit). Travel costs -- including travel costs to get to work -- also went through the roof (again, by treating a public service as property -- something you make a profit off). And it's worth noting that speculators have driven food prices through the roof globally, too. And let's not forget the breaking of the unions so that people couldn't even democratically organize to make their lives better.

All at the same time as consumer capitalism keeps driving the constant need for new technology, and not just as an object of desire, nor even just as a status object without which you're scum, but as a necessity for daily life without which you can't get a job.

Throw in the constant use of the police to suppress legitimate political protest, against the G20, or against tripling (or more) the price of further education. That's beyond the usual treatment of the underclass in the estates or in poor neighbourhoods.

That means you've got a government who hand money over to financiers who've robbed the people, and protect their system against the people, using those police whom now everyone in England has seen violently attack the people as they exercise their democratic rights to free speech and assembly (killing Ian Tomlinson in front of witnesses and then trying to hush it up); and those police then turning out to be not only corrupt on their own behalf, but in the pay of Rupert Murdoch.

When you grind people down over 30 years, taking everything away from them one little bit at the time, while a self-serving parliament is corruptly fleecing the system on expenses and toadying to Murdoch and the bankers, and while conspicuous consumption is blazed at them daily in advertising and TV shows about fancy food, fancy houses, fancy clothes, fancy everything in the world that they can never get one step on the ladder towards getting -- what the fuck do we expect will happen?

[Tages]

While the rest of what you wrote is insightful and interesting and I can't find much to take issue with, per se, there is one little niggle I wanted to address:

And it's worth noting that speculators have driven food prices through the roof globally, too.

Isn't most food speculation undertaken by governments and charitable organizations hedging their bets against future price shifts, and not, as you seem to imply, by greedy capitalists shortsightedly fucking the poor over for a mint?

[Ben D]

Typical far left BS blaming society or govermetn for the action of thugs.

These folks don't seem to be fighting for anything except what fun they can have in the destructuion of other peoples property and what they can steal

Did Paul say that the people were justified who were participating in the riots? No. Nothing of the sort actually. He simply said the reasons why the rioters, or at least many of the rioters, are participating in these acts.

[Paul McEnery]

While the rest of what you wrote is insightful and interesting and I can't find much to take issue with, per se, there is one little niggle I wanted to address:


Isn't most food speculation undertaken by governments and charitable organizations hedging their bets against future price shifts, and not, as you seem to imply, by greedy capitalists shortsightedly fucking the poor over for a mint?
Perhaps.

In which case I rather think they ought to change their ways, because playing capitalism's game with food isn't working.

[RolandJP]

Niggle....how cute.

Sort of like this.

http://www.wtvr.com/news/ktla-us-airways-panties,0,835987.story

[Tages]

Niggle....how cute.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/niggle

[howyadoin]

Niggle....how cute.

Sort of like this.

http://www.wtvr.com/news/ktla-us-airways-panties,0,835987.storyTry as I might, I can't find any logical connection between that word and the link.

Seriously, none whatsoever.

[Paul McEnery]

Niggle....how cute.

Sort of like this.

http://www.wtvr.com/news/ktla-us-airways-panties,0,835987.story

You going to come over all Beavis and Butthead if somebody says country, too?

[Iangould]

FFS, is there anything that Paul and Mike won't turn into a continuation of the same argument and same personal grudge we've all read already ad nauseum?

[Iangould]

Perhaps.

In which case I rather think they ought to change their ways, because playing capitalism's game with food isn't working.

Actually the underlying cause of the food price increases is nothing to do with "speculation".

It's two-fold: fuel and fertiliser price increases due to higher oi, prices and and higher food demand from China and India linked to higher incomes and rising demand for grain to feed to cattle.

Also, while food prices are at nominal highs due to inflation. this comes after 40-odd years of almost continuous falls in real-inflation adjusted terms.

but blaming speculators is so much more comfortable than bitching about how unfair it is that Chinese are eating meat every single day.

[Iangould]

Do you think he will have the courage of his warped convictions and go out and confront the rioters?

Now that there's an additional 10,000 police on the streets and the rioting has virtually stopped he's announced that 1,000 EDL members are going to go out on the streets and stop the rioting.

I guess it's the right time for it now that they've got their Christmas present lists sorted.

[Iangould]

So why did Cameron and Boris rush back anyway, was there a critical shortage of smug fat bastards in suits talking shite?

[Paul McEnery]

FFS, is there anything that Paul and Mike won't turn into a continuation of the same argument and same personal grudge we've all read already ad nauseum?

It's not a continuation of the argument. It's calling out hypocritical moralism in the most direct terms available.

[Paul McEnery]

Also, while food prices are at nominal highs due to inflation. this comes after 40-odd years of almost continuous falls in real-inflation adjusted terms..
You might call the increase in food prices nominal. My wallet knows better.

As for speculators, there appear to be a number of people who've been watching them:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/04/27/how_goldman_sachs_created_the_food_crisis

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703293204576105432159660842.html

http://ecojesuit.com/global-food-prices-soar-attract-speculators/792/

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/16/opinion/16iht-edpfaff.3.12052202.html

http://hlpronline.com/2011/02/food-prices-a-speculator-sport/

[Spike-X]

It's not a continuation of the argument. It's calling out hypocritical moralism in the most direct terms available.
You say tomato, I say give it a fuckin' rest and put the guy on ignore already.

[pariah-1972]

I was gonna throw my two cents in as usual but i will just say i'm pretty darn sure that Paul is completely right for once.


I thought it was obvious that the poor and disenfranchised are usually the ones that do these things.

[tommyman]

Education in this country is now solely the preserve of the wealthy. Nobody from the working class could afford to send a child to university.

Healthcare continues to deteriorate as the back-door privatization and commercialization of the NHS continues.

We pay a literal fortune to private companies via the PPPs and the "private finance initiative", and yet despite these supposed money saving measures slide ever further into public debt, with an infrastructure that is unlikely to even be maintained, much less improved. The money siphoned from the public to the private sector is hidden in elaborate shell-game contracts and accounting labyrinths to disguise a simple fact. The country now rents what it used to own, having sold off it's assets for a song to those companies. We are tied into eternal, legally binding contracts with those companies. Contracts signed for us by politicians now comfortably retired.

There has been a permanent underclass of unemployed people created, many funneled on to long term "sickness" benefits to massage the truth about unemployment. Keeping a million or more people in permanent borderline poverty and disconnected from the rest of society has become an unquestioned policy sustained by all those in power. Nobody even pretends to want full employment, it is never even mentioned as a remote possibility.

We are told we are living longer and so must work ever longer. Longer hours, less holiday, deferred retirement for smaller and smaller wages and pensions.

Social, affordable, housing is no longer built. Those who are not in a position to buy property subsidise those who can afford to "buy to rent". Those on benefits will be herded into ghettos in the cheapest, least desirable areas by new restrictions on the levels of housing benefit.

We are now permanently at war. The "war on terror" can never end, because you cannot defeat an abstract concept. Billions are spent turning other people's cities into much worse states than a few burning cars and looted shops. Then corporations can asset strip formerly state owned property. Corrupt puppet regimes compliant to those corporations are installed via rigged elections, and woe betide any who dare to put their people's interests ahead of the interests deemed important by the IMF and "the markets".

Our "culture" and "media" are little more than continuous advertising systems advocating greed, and the worship of those with money. With interjections of propaganda "news" which would have made Pravda blush with shame. Much of the media is controlled by the likes of Rupert Murdoch, who gets to dine with our Prime Minister regularly, and who has the Police and politicians at his beck and call.


And you have to ask, looking at all this, "Cui bono?" Who gains?

The gap between rich and poor continues to grow at an ever accelerating pace.
"The UK's wealthiest people have rebounded from the recession increasing their worth by 18% in the past year, the Sunday Times Rich List says." -BBC news.
Just soak that fact in for a moment. Here we are, still effectively in a recession. And those richest of all have seen their wealth increase by 18%. Those who already have billions have gained most whilst the rest of us are told "the markets" require ever more draconian cuts and "austerity measures".



Now, all of the above do not justify violence, arson and theft.
But they certainly provide a context where those whose protests are ignored, and whose votes mean nothing have no other means to change the world, and whose world is already slowly getting worse not better.
When the dispossessed riot in the Arab world, our masters support them with air strikes and praise the burning cars and mob rule as a sign of nascent democracy emerging from tyranny. Over here it's "despicable criminality" which will not be tolerated.
Pay someone to hack the phone of a murdered child for profit and you get to bang on a table whilst shouting at MPs who will cut corporation tax for you.
Knock over a few rubbish bins and you will be banged up sharpish.

[the4thpip]

Seems Cameron is now calling for harsher penalties and is giving another law and order speech.

Not a word about "we left those people behind and need to make them some kind of offer."

He will only make matters worse, just so he can show what a big schlong he has.

[the4thpip]

How is it "bleeding heart" to try and figure out how/why something bad happened, in order to try and stop it from happening again?

Dontcha know? Only people with no balls think with their brains.

[the4thpip]

Wow. Sounds exactly like the American foreign policy you defend at every turn.

Also sounds like the wealthy people in England who've screwed the country over so much that the people in the rioting areas feel they have nothing to lose.

International commentators used to look down on Germany's "way too comfy" social net, but not only did it help the economy get over the financial crisis much faster than the European average, we also have not seen the kind of social unrest the UK and France have had to deal with.

[the4thpip]

Typical far left BS blaming society or govermetn for the action of thugs.

These folks don't seem to be fighting for anything except what fun they can have in the destructuion of other peoples property and what they can steal

So you are saying some people are just born thugs, and the only thing you can do is lock them away?

[the4thpip]

While the rest of what you wrote is insightful and interesting and I can't find much to take issue with, per se, there is one little niggle I wanted to address:


Isn't most food speculation undertaken by governments and charitable organizations hedging their bets against future price shifts, and not, as you seem to imply, by greedy capitalists shortsightedly fucking the poor over for a mint?

You can invest in managed funds focusing on crops at most banks now.

[Pól Rua]

So you are saying some people are just born thugs, and the only thing you can do is lock them away?

That wouldn't be at ALL effective! Honestly, there's only one way to resolve this problem and I can't believe Johnson or Cameron haven't suggested it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owI7DOeO_yg

[Puma]

In the meantime, let's talk like grown-ups.

What we've got here is a structural problem in England that's so obvious even David Cameron caught a whiff of it. That's why he came up with his big idea: Big Society. Which jerks on his staff even recommended relaunching on the back of the riots.

Big Society was, for those who didn't catch it the first, second or third time, an attempt to encourage greater social participation. This at the same time that government cuts were taking away funding from social necessities like libraries and the healthcare system, and adding nine grand annual to the burden of students in further education.

Which made it perfectly obvious what he really meant. The wealthy don't want to pay for things any more, so you'll have to do these full time jobs for yourself for no pay. Which shouldn't be too hard, because we've fucked the economy so hard there'll be plenty of unemployed to go round. And we're talking services here that can reach the underclass -- massively psychologically damaged by a permanent poverty and a total disconnect from the commonality of society -- and provide them with the basic remediation necessary to be able to be part of society.

This is pretty much last straw time. Successive governments, including Blair's New Labour, have been playing to the rich and the upper middle class since 1980. Wealth has become increasingly stratified; popular democracy -- including London's democratically-elected assembly, and even the right to vote itself, with the poll tax -- went under the axe.

Cameron's Big Society reminds us of Thatcher's words: There's no such thing as society. We shouldn't be much surprised that any sense of commonality has been successively destroyed, even as the culture of England, like the wealth of England, became increasingly wrapped up in property.

House prices went through the roof, which of course meant housing prices went through the roof (and lets not forget that there was the selling off of public housing because property ought to be something that turns a profit). Travel costs -- including travel costs to get to work -- also went through the roof (again, by treating a public service as property -- something you make a profit off). And it's worth noting that speculators have driven food prices through the roof globally, too. And let's not forget the breaking of the unions so that people couldn't even democratically organize to make their lives better.

All at the same time as consumer capitalism keeps driving the constant need for new technology, and not just as an object of desire, nor even just as a status object without which you're scum, but as a necessity for daily life without which you can't get a job.

Throw in the constant use of the police to suppress legitimate political protest, against the G20, or against tripling (or more) the price of further education. That's beyond the usual treatment of the underclass in the estates or in poor neighbourhoods.

That means you've got a government who hand money over to financiers who've robbed the people, and protect their system against the people, using those police whom now everyone in England has seen violently attack the people as they exercise their democratic rights to free speech and assembly (killing Ian Tomlinson in front of witnesses and then trying to hush it up); and those police then turning out to be not only corrupt on their own behalf, but in the pay of Rupert Murdoch.

When you grind people down over 30 years, taking everything away from them one little bit at the time, while a self-serving parliament is corruptly fleecing the system on expenses and toadying to Murdoch and the bankers, and while conspicuous consumption is blazed at them daily in advertising and TV shows about fancy food, fancy houses, fancy clothes, fancy everything in the world that they can never get one step on the ladder towards getting -- what the fuck do we expect will happen?
this applies to the US as well. I'm waiting for the riots here.

[Iangould]

Three men run over and killed in Birmingham. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8693095/Birmingham-riots-three-men-killed-protecting-homes.html)


A murder investigation has been launched after three people were killed “doing the job of the police” during widespread rioting.

The article gives the name of one of the victims: Haroon Jahan and his father's name as Tariq Jahan,

The last fucking thing we need is for this to develop a racial or religious element.

[Iangould]

this applies to the US as well. I'm waiting for the riots here.

I tend to doubt it.

[Puma]

I tend to doubt it.
I doubt that it will be as wide spread but in certain cities it certainly could happen before the end of summer.

[beetlebum]

FFS, is there anything that Paul and Mike won't turn into a continuation of the same argument and same personal grudge we've all read already ad nauseum?


You say tomato, I say give it a fuckin' rest and put the guy on ignore already.

I have to agree with these two posts.

[king mob]

If anyone has SKY, channel 847 has images from Birmingham, and its freaking nuts.

Still, London seems quiet, but then 16,000 coppers has a tendency to do that.

More police leads to less trouble? Well that's just crazy talk, isn't Teresa May?

But remember, the cuts have nothing to do with this and there's no political reasons behind this. It's just mindless violence, etc....

[king mob]

From what I've read, the one type of business the rioters have been leaving alone is bookshops. I guess there's absolutely nothing of value there for them.

Which is a point being picked up by a lot of people now, but the problem is that rioters are targeting anywhere that might have a till which might have money in it.


For example, the riots here in Bristol targeted several fast food shops in an attempt to get to their tills. Forget the fact these places are run by people living in the community and give jobs to people from the community, it was all about grabbing as much money as possible.

[king mob]

Typical far left BS blaming society or govermetn for the action of thugs.

These folks don't seem to be fighting for anything except what fun they can have in the destructuion of other peoples property and what they can steal


Oh fucks sake.


It's not 'far left BS'. It's the truth of a country which has been led down a path where government has removed the role of the state and tried to eliminate the point of society. Look at the cuts which has removed training programmes for kids, or the fact Labour sold off playing fields to private developers so kids have nowhere to kick a ball around.

It's been a decline for decades. It's not 'BS'. Learn some facts about this country before talking bollocks.

[king mob]

So why did Cameron and Boris rush back anyway, was there a critical shortage of smug fat bastards in suits talking shite?

They know that they've fucked up and left it too long to return from their jolly nice holiday's.


Point is there was no national co-ordination til yesterday because much of what needed to be done had to come from the PM, and you can't do that by text while sitting in an expensive Tuscan villa.

[Vic Vega]

this applies to the US as well. I'm waiting for the riots here.

Americans have tended to save thier rage for Union Members and Illegal Aliens lately.

Maybe if Guliani was still Mayor you might have gotten a riot in New York by now.

[king mob]

Seems Cameron is now calling for harsher penalties and is giving another law and order speech.

Not a word about "we left those people behind and need to make them some kind of offer."

He will only make matters worse, just so he can show what a big schlong he has.

What's worrying is you've got the same bollocks coming from Ed Milliband, and Nick Clegg is pointless anyhow. Simply put, we don't have any existing politician with any new ideas to get us out of this as all Cameron will do is paste over the joins at best.

The worst thing is the coalition's cuts (which are much harsher than what Labour started in 2008) are only a few months old. Things haven't got as bad as they can, and Cameron's ideas are all singular failures.

[pariah-1972]

Americans have tended to save thier rage for Union Members and Illegal Aliens lately.

Maybe if Guliani was still Mayor you might have gotten a riot in New York by now.Seems like most of the riots in the us that i'm familiar with have some sort of racial component.

[king mob]

It should also be pointed out that Cameron saying the police can use water cannon within 24 hours notice is only him posturing for the media. The police are saying it's useless against the sort of crowds they have to deal with & they want more police so we've got this horrible disconnect between the politicians and the police.


There's also only six water cannon in Northern Ireland and it'd take a day at least to get one from say Belfast to London, Bristol or Birmingham.

[Charles RB]

Bad news for UK music - that Sony DADC building set on fire? That was the HQ for the country's biggest independent music distributor, containing stock for 150+ companies. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/14460204)We can expect layoffs and some companies to go under when the financial twatting hits them.

And then there's all the shops being burnt out or ransacked that turn out to be independent chains or just the one shop. Argos and Tesco and the like can shrug this off, but what do you do if you have just the one shop and it's left gutted? Working and lower-middle classes will be getting it in the neck when the bill comes.


In a completely predictable move, Manchester is

suffering from serious rioting while most of their serious riot officers are in London.

That was really dumb.


Local communities in London are standing up against the hooligans and rioters.

Saw a report of 200+ Sikh men gathering outside their local temples to make sure nothing kicked off - even if London hadn't been quiet last night (except Canning Town) I don't think there'd have been much rioting around that area...

There's only citizen cleanups and people & papers putting out CCTV footage and photos of unmasked looters so they can be IDed.


I'm inclined to think it's a little from column A and a little from column Twat. BUT I COULD BE WRONG!

Can you be CotM again?


From what I've read, the one type of business the rioters have been leaving alone is bookshops. I guess there's absolutely nothing of value there for them.

But they did burn a library down in Gloucester.


So why did Cameron and Boris rush back anyway, was there a critical shortage of smug fat bastards in suits talking shite?

Parliament's also being called back to discuss the situation.

That's going to be "fun", I'm expecting shit to be thrown all over the place about the planned police numbers-and-budget cuts.


Much of the media is controlled by the likes of Rupert Murdoch, who gets to dine with our Prime Minister regularly, and who has the Police and politicians at his beck and call.

You're a bit out of date with this one.



When the dispossessed riot in the Arab world, our masters support them with air strikes and praise the burning cars and mob rule as a sign of nascent democracy emerging from tyranny. Over here it's "despicable criminality" which will not be tolerated.

The difference is the dispossessed aren't shot in the fucking head whenever they kick up a fuss here. It's not a comparison that works unless you won't to diminish what the Arab protestors went through and what they're still going through in Syria, Bahrain, and Libya.


Seems Cameron is now calling for harsher penalties and is giving another law and order speech.

Not a word about "we left those people behind and need to make them some kind of offer."

Residents of the hit areas kept complaining to the press that the police weren't coming in hard enough (and that's the first time I can remember hearing people complain that riot police weren't steaming in too hard). I don't think many people are going to be in the mood to hear talk about outreach, they want to hear "I'm going to stop people burning your stuff".

So if the rioters hate the police being authoritarian, whoops, they fucked that one up - the police now have a mandate to thump people.

Now if Cameron intends to go for outreach, improving areas etc after the riots are stopped and he's choosing his speeches carefully (and that's his job), then no problem, that's him doing what he's meant to do. But he's Cameron running the Big Society government, so balls he will. Individual Labour MPs who represent the hit constituencies have been talking about the factors that led to rioting and the need for transparency and all that, but the Labour hierarchy seems focused on "ha ha Theresa May, this is your mess" above all else.

[BlairH]

Saw a report of 200+ Sikh men gathering outside their local temples to make sure nothing kicked off

That was an awesome sight to behold on the news last night. Nobody messed with them, and for good reason! They were carrying swords.

[BlairH]

So you are saying some people are just born thugs, and the only thing you can do is lock them away?

You've obviously not met some of the folks from my town.

[Charles RB]

Insert joke about Scotland here.

[BlairH]

Insert joke about Scotland here.

You should see the number of Scottish groups springing up on the Facebook promising to "set aboot" any rioters who decide to stir the shit up here.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

A BBC Reporter makes a fool of herself. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o)


Classy stuff from her, not even trying to listen to the guy.

[sherlockbones]

has nato decided it´s stance yet about supporting the rebels?

[BlairH]

A BBC Reporter makes a fool of herself. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o)


Classy stuff from her, not even trying to listen to the guy.

"An insurrection of the masses of the people"

Who are these "masses"? Last I heard, the vast majority of people are not taking part in these riots. Comparing this to the situation in Syria is unhelpful; I don't see anybody being shelled or run over by tanks.

[Paul McEnery]

A BBC Reporter makes a fool of herself. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o)


Classy stuff from her, not even trying to listen to the guy.

Little bit of history on this:

http://www.internationaltimes.it/index.php?year=1971&volume=IT-Volume-1&issue=96&item=IT_1971-01-28_B-IT-Volume-1_Iss-96_003

http://www.internationaltimes.it/index.php?year=1971&volume=IT-Volume-1&issue=96&item=IT_1971-01-28_B-IT-Volume-1_Iss-96_010

[BlairH]

Little bit of history on this:

http://www.internationaltimes.it/index.php?year=1971&volume=IT-Volume-1&issue=96&item=IT_1971-01-28_B-IT-Volume-1_Iss-96_003

http://www.internationaltimes.it/index.php?year=1971&volume=IT-Volume-1&issue=96&item=IT_1971-01-28_B-IT-Volume-1_Iss-96_010

What a grubby publication!

[Paul McEnery]

What a grubby publication!

And a little bit of history about the publication:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Times

[Karl O'Neill]

Tons of videos of that injured boy getting robbed by those thugs are circulating on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo&feature=aso


Filthly degenerate bastards.

[the4thpip]

It should also be pointed out that Cameron saying the police can use water cannon within 24 hours notice is only him posturing for the media. The police are saying it's useless against the sort of crowds they have to deal with & they want more police so we've got this horrible disconnect between the politicians and the police.


There's also only six water cannon in Northern Ireland and it'd take a day at least to get one from say Belfast to London, Bristol or Birmingham.

But water cannons are all in good fun!


http://bilder.augsburger-allgemeine.de/img/8593201-1295087121000/topTeaser_crop_Stuttgart-21-Proteste-wasserwerfer.jpg

... until somebody loses an eye, that is.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Little bit of history on this:

http://www.internationaltimes.it/index.php?year=1971&volume=IT-Volume-1&issue=96&item=IT_1971-01-28_B-IT-Volume-1_Iss-96_003

http://www.internationaltimes.it/index.php?year=1971&volume=IT-Volume-1&issue=96&item=IT_1971-01-28_B-IT-Volume-1_Iss-96_010

Which article should I read, the Mad Bombers' one?

[Karl O'Neill]

But water cannons are all in good fun!


http://bilder.augsburger-allgemeine.de/img/8593201-1295087121000/topTeaser_crop_Stuttgart-21-Proteste-wasserwerfer.jpg

... until somebody loses an eye, that is.

You just ruined my pizza.

[mikekerrIII]

So you are saying some people are just born thugs, and the only thing you can do is lock them away?

No I am saying that some people CHOOSE to be come thugs and the optimum thing to do is lock them away.

People make choices and should pay the consequences for those choices. You seem to have some kind of problem with reading if that is what you got from my posts

[mikekerrIII]

this applies to the US as well. I'm waiting for the riots here.

That would end pretty rapidly, the National Guard tends to shut those down quickly, except for the occasional suicidal idiot.

[the4thpip]

No I am saying that some people CHOOSE to be come thugs and the optimum thing to do is lock them away.

People make choices and should pay the consequences for those choices. You seem to have some kind of problem with reading if that is what you got from my posts

Does Mikey need a hug?

[Puma]

That would end pretty rapidly, the National Guard tends to shut those down quickly, except for the occasional suicidal idiot.
forgetting East L.A.? After the Rodney King verdict? Six days, 53 deaths. Wasn't until the fourth day that the National Guard and Marines were deployed.

[mikekerrIII]

Oh fucks sake.


It's not 'far left BS'. It's the truth of a country which has been led down a path where government has removed the role of the state and tried to eliminate the point of society. Look at the cuts which has removed training programmes for kids, or the fact Labour sold off playing fields to private developers so kids have nowhere to kick a ball around.

It's been a decline for decades. It's not 'BS'. Learn some facts about this country before talking bollocks.

And burning their neighbors houses and steeling property works towards fixing the problems? that is BS. Looting and rioting make things worse not better and I have seen too much real poverty to have a lot os sympathy for folks with fuil bellies and roofs over their heads who rob stores and burn down homes. Thugs with a convenient excuse to be thugs are not a army of revolution they are simply thugs.

[7thangel]

yes, of course, you being the expert on the lives of all those in depressed neighbourhoods in the UK know that they all have full bellies and roofs over their head. of course we also know that having a roof over your head means you're not really poor

[Paul McEnery]

Which article should I read, the Mad Bombers' one?

The one about the riot? :evilsmile:

It's part one and two, btw; the navigation isn't obvious, so I put both in.

Anyway, it's bottom left: Racists in Setback.

[Mr MajestiK]

We do not know that yet, the investigation is still under-way.


Mark Duggan death: 'No evidence' Tottenham man opened fire

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14459516

There is no evidence Mark Duggan opened fire at police before being shot dead by a firearms officer, the Independent Police Complaints Commission has said.

Mr Duggan, 29, whose death sparked the first riots in Tottenham, died from a single bullet wound, an inquest heard.

The police watchdog said ballistic tests showed "no evidence that the handgun found at the scene was fired".

BBC News understands firearms officers discharged their weapons in the belief there was a threat to human life.

Their guidelines allow them to open fire in such circumstances.
Establish the facts

Mr Duggan, a father of four, was shot in Ferry Lane, Tottenham, north London, on Thursday, as specialist firearms officers attempted to make an arrest.

A key witness, the driver of the minicab in which Mr Duggan was travelling, has yet to give his version of events. He is understood to be in a severe state of shock.

Investigations by the IPCC show two shots were fired by a Scotland Yard CO19 firearms officer.

The initial results confirmed a bullet found lodged in a police officer's radio was a "jacketed round" - a police issue bullet consistent with being fired from a force Heckler and Koch MP5.

Forensic officers have told the IPCC it may not be possible to "say for certain" whether the handgun found near Mr Duggan was fired.

Further tests on the weapon, which had been converted from a blank-firing pistol to one that shoots live rounds, are being carried out to establish this.
Search for truth

The IPCC said it was not a replica and was an illegal firearm.

Further tests are being carried out on a "bulleted cartridge" found in the magazine.

Click to play

Rachel Cerfontyne, IPCC commissioner: Gun found at the scene was converted pistol

In response to the findings, the Met said it was in everyone's interests "the IPCC are able to establish all the facts of the events of last Thursday so that there is a complete understanding of what happened".

An inquest into Mr Duggan's death was opened at North London Coroner's Court in High Barnet and adjourned until 12 December.

Colin Sparrow, deputy senior investigator for the Independent Police Complaints Commission, which is looking into the shooting, told the hearing the inquiry could take up to six months.

A statement released by Mr Duggan's family said they were "deeply distressed" by the disorder affecting communities across England.

It read: "We want to establish the truth about Mark's death.

"The family want everyone to know that the disorder going on has nothing to do with finding out what happened to Mark."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14459516


It is also suggested that they did come under fire from somewhere, friendly fire or not is yet to be determined, then the Police officers had a right to protect themselves. They had a right to protect themselves even if they had reasonable suspicion that the suspect was reaching for a firearm - and one was found on the scene.

The only fire the cops came under was from their own guns so I guess they needed to protect themselves from each other.



And regardless, it offers no excuse for the actions of any those currently rioting in any way what-so-ever.

I don't think anyone's actually suggested that there's an excuse for the behaviour of the looters/rioters but let's put things in perspective here.

I live in Edmonton which (for me) is practically a 15-20 minute walk from Tottenham s you could say I have something of a unique perspective as a local so to speak.

The atmosphere in the area following the shooting was very tense which was exasperbated by the police releasing information about the deceased to the press before even talking to his family.

This "information" was riddled with inconsistencies which led to the family now having to approach the police directly for answers.

These inconsistencies are now becoming more and more glaring as revealed in the article I've presented here.

[Mr MajestiK]

In the meantime, let's talk like grown-ups.

What we've got here is a structural problem in England that's so obvious even David Cameron caught a whiff of it. That's why he came up with his big idea: Big Society. Which jerks on his staff even recommended relaunching on the back of the riots.

Big Society was, for those who didn't catch it the first, second or third time, an attempt to encourage greater social participation. This at the same time that government cuts were taking away funding from social necessities like libraries and the healthcare system, and adding nine grand annual to the burden of students in further education.

Which made it perfectly obvious what he really meant. The wealthy don't want to pay for things any more, so you'll have to do these full time jobs for yourself for no pay. Which shouldn't be too hard, because we've fucked the economy so hard there'll be plenty of unemployed to go round. And we're talking services here that can reach the underclass -- massively psychologically damaged by a permanent poverty and a total disconnect from the commonality of society -- and provide them with the basic remediation necessary to be able to be part of society.

This is pretty much last straw time. Successive governments, including Blair's New Labour, have been playing to the rich and the upper middle class since 1980. Wealth has become increasingly stratified; popular democracy -- including London's democratically-elected assembly, and even the right to vote itself, with the poll tax -- went under the axe.

Cameron's Big Society reminds us of Thatcher's words: There's no such thing as society. We shouldn't be much surprised that any sense of commonality has been successively destroyed, even as the culture of England, like the wealth of England, became increasingly wrapped up in property.

House prices went through the roof, which of course meant housing prices went through the roof (and lets not forget that there was the selling off of public housing because property ought to be something that turns a profit). Travel costs -- including travel costs to get to work -- also went through the roof (again, by treating a public service as property -- something you make a profit off). And it's worth noting that speculators have driven food prices through the roof globally, too. And let's not forget the breaking of the unions so that people couldn't even democratically organize to make their lives better.

All at the same time as consumer capitalism keeps driving the constant need for new technology, and not just as an object of desire, nor even just as a status object without which you're scum, but as a necessity for daily life without which you can't get a job.

Throw in the constant use of the police to suppress legitimate political protest, against the G20, or against tripling (or more) the price of further education. That's beyond the usual treatment of the underclass in the estates or in poor neighbourhoods.

That means you've got a government who hand money over to financiers who've robbed the people, and protect their system against the people, using those police whom now everyone in England has seen violently attack the people as they exercise their democratic rights to free speech and assembly (killing Ian Tomlinson in front of witnesses and then trying to hush it up); and those police then turning out to be not only corrupt on their own behalf, but in the pay of Rupert Murdoch.

When you grind people down over 30 years, taking everything away from them one little bit at the time, while a self-serving parliament is corruptly fleecing the system on expenses and toadying to Murdoch and the bankers, and while conspicuous consumption is blazed at them daily in advertising and TV shows about fancy food, fancy houses, fancy clothes, fancy everything in the world that they can never get one step on the ladder towards getting -- what the fuck do we expect will happen?

Perfect post.

[Foon4000]

Recreational rioting isn't a new thing. My uncle used to go out and riot after school in the 70s, and if there was a van full of commodities in the middle of it all the better. He's a primary school teacher now. There are reasons why this is happening here and now, but the urge to throw stuff at the police and smash things is hard-wired into human nature.

[Paul McEnery]

The atmosphere in the area following the shooting was very tense which was exasperbated by the police releasing information about the deceased to the press before even talking to his family.

This "information" was riddled with inconsistencies which led to the family now having to approach the police directly for answers.

These inconsistencies are now becoming more and more glaring as revealed in the article I've presented here.

How unusual.

Meanwhile: the word you're groping for is "exacerbated".

The word you made up, I'm going to nick, and use forever.

[Jasoninthewoods]

They should be shot on sight ,and their welfare checks should be used to cover the damages.

[Foon4000]

They should be shot on sight ,and their welfare checks should be used to cover the damages.

Get over yourself. If it had been raining all week there'd be no riots.

[Jared H.]

Get over yourself. If it had been raining all week there'd be no riots.

Read his other posts(or don't; it would save you some pain). Really bad attempts at passive-aggressiveness is his schtick.

That, and over use of smileys.

[Puppetmaker Grae]

In a completely predictable move, Manchester is suffering from serious rioting while most of their serious riot officers are in London.

We're used to being shafted in favour of London every now and then, eventually it stops being a surprise. Still the 100 guys sent down south would have been much more use back here. A colleagues brother is CID, but even he's being deployed back to uniform for tonight.


Forbidden Planet in Manchester has been vandalized. (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/08/09/forbidden-planet-in-manchester-looted-by-rioters/)

By comparison with many other businesses they appear to have gotten off relatively lightly - windows damaged but not destroyed and it looks like nobody got inside the actual shop.

A friend has a shop in the craft centre just round the corner from FP in the Northern Quarter, fortunately they closed up early & the centre is just a little too far out from the main shopping area to attract much attention. But she said it wasn't pretty & some of the kids smashing windows were barely 10 years old!

Radio Manchester managed to interview a couple of looters. The clip is about 15mins & 30secs in: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/p00j9rpn

Hopefully tonight will be quieter, the weather today has returned to normal for Manchester - pissing it down - so Constable Rain will keep a lot of people off the streets and the rest are flooded with police. There're even several units at the shops about half a mile up the road from me, and we're about 4 miles out from the city centre, so GMP must be spread very thin.

Apparently it has kicked off again in Salford, but that's Salford for you!

[Foon4000]

Hopefully tonight will be quieter, the weather today has returned to normal for Manchester - pissing it down - so Constable Rain will keep a lot of people off the streets and the rest are flooded with police.



Magic, isn't it? Nobody wants to be out at night when it's raining.

All the BBC Radio Ulster callers were complaining about the police using water canons and rubber bullets in Belfast but not in England. But then nobody ever gets arrested for rioting here.

[Puppetmaker Grae]

Magic, isn't it? Nobody wants to be out at night when it's raining.

All the BBC Radio Ulster callers were complaining about the police using water canons and rubber bullets in Belfast but not in England. But then nobody ever gets arrested for rioting here.

Also English, Scottish & Welsh riots tend to feature less blast bombs & gunshots!

[Tages]

Also English, Scottish & Welsh riots tend to feature less blast bombs & gunshots!

The one episode of Locked Up Abroad I half-paid attention to made it same that getting stabbed in Scotland is only slightly less common than the sunrise.

[Paul McEnery]

Beautiful article here, does the job of getting out and about and seeing what's actually happening. Too long to quote.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/london-riots-who-took-part

[Puppetmaker Grae]

The one episode of Locked Up Abroad I half-paid attention to made it same that getting stabbed in Scotland is only slightly less common than the sunrise.

All I can say is that as yet, I have survived all my visits north of the border unstabbed. :smile:

[BlairH]

or the fact Labour sold off playing fields to private developers so kids have nowhere to kick a ball around.

I have more faith in humanity than to presume that we will all resort to violence if we don't have a place to "kick a ball around". I know you're trying to get at something greater, and more complex here, but I've seen nothing to persuade me that the rioters, for the most part, are motivated by anything other than choice.

This is not the same as the tuition fee protests/riots from last year.

[BlairH]

The one episode of Locked Up Abroad I half-paid attention to made it same that getting stabbed in Scotland is only slightly less common than the sunrise.

Yeah, it's pretty common.

A young Blair was once stabbed in his music class at school, aged 14. I may or may not have deserved that though, as I was ripping the piss out of the school bully at the time.

[Paul McEnery]

Sad quote from an otherwise heartening piece:


The Guardian filmed others – some armed with baseball bats – on guard outside shops and restaurants in Kingsland Road, only a mile away from Hackney's burning high street. Three workers from Re-Style Hairdressers were among those out in Green Lanes, after word spread that an attack was imminent at about 4pm.

"I was here with my brother and my boss waiting for them until about midnight," said 16-year-old Huseyin Beytar. "If some guy ever breaks a window in this street, all the Turkish Kurdish people come down to protect the shops. We're like a family."

"We have to do things for ourselves," said Huseyin. "We have to look after each other. If they come here tonight there will be a fight, a big fight."

"We were outside ready and expecting them," said the manager of Turkish Food Market, who asked not to be named.

"But I felt very panicky because we are not safe from either the rioters or police.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/london-riots-fighting-neighbourhoods

[mikekerrIII]

forgetting East L.A.? After the Rodney King verdict? Six days, 53 deaths. Wasn't until the fourth day that the National Guard and Marines were deployed.

Most states do oty have cowardly idiots for governors, it would have been over in at most two days otherwise.

[mikekerrIII]

yes, of course, you being the expert on the lives of all those in depressed neighbourhoods in the UK know that they all have full bellies and roofs over their head. of course we also know that having a roof over your head means you're not really poor

Depressed is not impoverished by the standards of the rest of the world, or are you saying that starvation and lack of basic necessitirs is common in the UK.

Having enough food to eat and shelter means that you are not really poor, try seeing how the worlds real poor live, see folks who try to live on 500 calories a day and have no adequate shelter or even potable water, I have seen real poverty and having the basic necessities means that you are not all that poor, I doubt that any of those neighborhoods are poor and more depressed that some of the ones I lived in a kid.

Reaaaly poor people have to worry about the next meal and are still hungry after the last one, what goes for poverty in the developed world is luxurry beyond dreams to the truly poor.

[Iangould]

A BBC Reporter makes a fool of herself. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o)


Classy stuff from her, not even trying to listen to the guy.

Since the guy was making no attempt to listen to her and was making a preprepared (and stupid) political speech, why should she?

[Iangould]

has nato decided it´s stance yet about supporting the rebels?

How many reports have their been of police breaking into suspected looters' houses and raping their mothers and sisters in front of them?

How many reports of looting were there from Tahrir Square?

Des that answer your question?

[Iangould]

Tons of videos of that injured boy getting robbed by those thugs are circulating on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo&feature=aso


Filthly degenerate bastards.

No, no.

That's just the masses insurrecting.

[Iangould]

That would end pretty rapidly, the National Guard tends to shut those down quickly, except for the occasional suicidal idiot.

The Rodney King riots lasted six days and over 50 people died. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LA_Riots)

[Iangould]

of course we also know that having a roof over your head means you're not really poor

Speaking both from first-hand experience and from my knowledge of the conditions under which around 1/3 of humanity live, I would say that that is in fact the case.

[Iangould]

Most states do oty have cowardly idiots for governors, it would have been over in at most two days otherwise.

No true Scotsman ...

[Paul McEnery]

Since the guy was making no attempt to listen to her and was making a preprepared (and stupid) political speech, why should she?

Because she's the journalist? Who's asking leading and incriminating questions in a totally insulting way? (Oh, and whose full title is Lady MacGregor of MacGregor, if I've been led to the right journo, just to put the icing on the cake.)

Because he's a respected black leader and journalist himself who doesn't deserve to be treated that way? And because he's talking sense?

And because he's actually got experience of this, having been arrested for "rioting" only to have the charges thrown out when it turned out the "riot" was the police's fault for kettling?

And because far from being full of shit, he's making the massively important point that the riots and insurrections across the globe, from Egypt to Chile to Paris to Oakland to London all have something in common:
People acting out of frustration being screwed over by global capitalism and the policing that's supposed to do nothing but keep them in their place.

Or perhaps you think the huge amount of money put into invading Iraq rather than in supporting the infrastructure and giving the underclass a chance has nothing at all to do with this.

Or indeed neoliberal policies that deliberately strip bare the infrastructure and just as deliberately consign people to an unrepresented underclass while feathering the nests of the upper middle class -- that's got nothing to do with this either, right?

Or, to put it bluntly, patsy governments worldwide doing what the rich tell them to do, and getting fat kickbacks for it, while the rest of the world goes to hell -- that's a global experience, right now.

No wonder Howe gets cranky with her. If I had my way, she'd be fired. I've fired writers for less.

[Paul McEnery]

Speaking both from first-hand experience and from my knowledge of the conditions under which around 1/3 of humanity live, I would say that that is in fact the case.

Then you'd be talking bollocks.

You're no less poor for living on food stamps or the dole, crammed many to a flat, and having no possibility of a job if you could even afford to get yourself suited up and pay the fare to get to an interview.

Not having hookworm is not the definition of poverty. It's not having what those around you have -- and having no way of ever getting what those around you have.

[7thangel]

Speaking both from first-hand experience and from my knowledge of the conditions under which around 1/3 of humanity live, I would say that that is in fact the case.

that's bs anyway you slice it. so basically those that live in shanty towns aren't really poor.


Depressed is not impoverished by the standards of the rest of the world, or are you saying that starvation and lack of basic necessitirs is common in the UK.

Having enough food to eat and shelter means that you are not really poor, try seeing how the worlds real poor live, see folks who try to live on 500 calories a day and have no adequate shelter or even potable water, I have seen real poverty and having the basic necessities means that you are not all that poor, I doubt that any of those neighborhoods are poor and more depressed that some of the ones I lived in a kid.you doubt but don't know. you tell me to see how the worlds real poor live as if i don't know, but wait, some of those real poor have shelter and food, imagine that, i guess we have to kick those from trenchtown to babilonia out of the poverty category


Reaaaly poor people have to worry about the next meal and are still hungry after the last one, what goes for poverty in the developed world is luxurry beyond dreams to the truly poor.yes and no one in the west has ever had to worry about that, especially the young, because the social safety net is always present and responsible and there for everyone, even those that aren't citizens and such


now, i'm not saying you're doing what those that always talk about "the real poor, so shut up and stop complaining" do, but you do seem to be playing that role to a tee

[Iangould]

that's bs anyway you slice it. so basically those that live in shanty towns aren't really poor.

Ever tried to sleep on the concrete floor of a public toilet so cold the water in the dunnies was freezing over?

Trust me it makes sleeping on a mattress on the floor in a room you share with three brothers seem like fucking luxury.

[Michael P]

There are reasons why this is happening here and now, but the urge to throw stuff at the police and smash things is hard-wired into human nature.

Really? Because I've never had it.

Then again, I've always known where my next meal was coming from.

[Iangould]

yes and no one in the west has ever had to worry about that, especially the young, because the social safety net is always present and responsible and there for everyone, even those that aren't citizens and such


Take a look at the rioters in the video footage and in the police photoes.

See anyone suffering from malnutrition?

See anyone dressed in rags? Barefoot?

[Michael P]

Ever tried to sleep on the concrete floor of a public toilet so cold the water in the dunnies was freezing over?

Trust me it makes sleeping on a mattress on the floor in a room you share with three brothers seem like fucking luxury.

That's not the difference between poor and not poor, that's the difference between poor and destitute.

[7thangel]

Ever tried to sleep on the concrete floor of a public toilet so cold the water in the dunnies was freezing over?

Trust me it makes sleeping on a mattress on the floor in a room you share with three brothers seem like fucking luxury.

i've been homeless in a city where homeless die of exposure.

sleeping on a floor with three brothers may seem like a luxury in comparison but that doesn't stop them from being poor. simple as that. i mean seriously