CBR: Cup O' Joe - Jul 29, 2011

[CBR News]

In the wake of San Diego, Tom Brevoort unpacks Marvel's plans for original graphic novels, shares how "Fear Itself" will push the Marvel U to its next phase and invites Matt Fraction in for a "Mighty Thor" sneak peek!


Full article here (http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=33646).

[Sabrewulf]

OKay first off in response to Tom

Matt and Terry Dodson, which is an A-list creative team

No they really arent. The fans have both voted with their dollar and online yet you choose to ignore it. Well done.

As for CBR and this column in genral. Shame on you!

The one question that should have been asked this week is about the comics for comics/DC thing.

I don't know whether Marvel refuese to answer certain questions or whether you just don't want to rock the boat. But do not call yourselves comic journalists.

You are now in my eyes offiicialy what Wizard became. I'm embarresed for fans everyhwere that you, as the biggest comics news site feels the need to pander to the big two. They need you as much as you need them and hence should be willing to respect you as journalists not just as a way of hyping up their product which is obviously what is happening here.

Its all good and well doing what Newsarama don't do anymore and letting the fans have their say but seriously shouldn't you as journalists be asking the questions that are on the fans minds.

Very disapointed. Stop being a free advertisement for the big comic companies and start having some integrity.

[Pixie_Solanas]

They are A-List (for Marvel). Just because the typical contrarians on the interwebs say otherwise doesn't mean it's not so.

[Sabrewulf]

They are A-List (for Marvel). Just because the typical contrarians on the interwebs say otherwise doesn't mean it's not so.

Just because MArvel call someone and architect doesnt mean they are Alist.

Fraction has seen sales dropm on all his titles even with the help of events and renumbering. His X-Men was pretty much critically panned by fans and criitcs alike and the sales reflected that. So what do you do with someone who has failed to set sales alight.

You put them in charge of the next big event. How does that pan out. Well it sells the same as Siege pretty much for the first issue and then drops 25% of readers whilst being criticised for being boring and going nowhere.

Now someone is going to say comics sell less now than last year. Maybe, but there are many comics that have stayed steady in this climate. Peter Davids X-Factor for one. X-Force another.

Comics arent shedding readers. Bad comics are.

[theXfactor]

If new readers are having trouble knowing where to start, wouldn't it be smarter to focus on core titles instead of launching new ones very year? If a new reader walks into a store and sees a dozen different X-men titles, wouldn't he just be confused?
Titles like Astonishing X-men and X-men vol. 3 are nothing more than redundant. Marvel needs to cut the fat or it will die of obesity. ;/

[Nite-Wing]

Peter David could be A-list too if he was writing Uncanny X-men and Iron Man I imagine.

[poneley]

I'm really not interested in the comics for comics DC thing because the answer we'll get is going to be along the lines of "its a promotion to get people excited about our product and put our name out there." I don't know what else you'd expect to hear-- there's no controversy hear to uncover. You could ask, "some fans are upset about this, how do you feel about that?" What answer do you expect them to give? What hardcore investigative reporting are you expecting from that issue?!??!

Kudos to Marvel for putting out the Season One books. I like OGNs and collected material and I like getting non-superhero creative teams on the books too.

I also like the idea behind the Point One book. I like anthology books. My hope is that it goes on sale day-and-date digital too.

[Rheged]

I'm really not interested in the comics for comics DC thing because the answer we'll get is going to be along the lines of "its a promotion to get people excited about our product and put our name out there." I don't know what else you'd expect to hear-- there's no controversy hear to uncover. You could ask, "some fans are upset about this, how do you feel about that?" What answer do you expect them to give? What hardcore investigative reporting are you expecting from that issue?!??!

Kudos to Marvel for putting out the Season One books. I like OGNs and collected material and I like getting non-superhero creative teams on the books too.

I also like the idea behind the Point One book. I like anthology books. My hope is that it goes on sale day-and-date digital too.

Ditto, except on the Season One books. Not terribly interested in yet ANOTHER retelling of books that have reprints and reprints of the original stories. And while I love Roberto A-S ... he's already done something very like this MK4.

The Point One book sounds tons better than reported. Definitely will be buying that.

[Marveluted]

Why were the teasers for Fear Itself so much more interesting than the actual event?

Cyclops Magneto. Captain America's patriotism shattered. Iron Man realizing he's responsible for weaponizing the future.Spider-Man apparently being afraid of the mortgage crisis for some reason.

Instead we get a bunch of big dude smashing buildings and a generic Norse cypher. Boring.

[Sabrewulf]

Ditto, except on the Season One books. Not terribly interested in yet ANOTHER retelling of books that have reprints and reprints of the original stories. And while I love Roberto A-S ... he's already done something very like this MK4.

The Point One book sounds tons better than reported. Definitely will be buying that.

It does doesn't it. BUt this is Marvel so Im willing to bet that like the rst of the 0.1 books it's all empty hype. They dont actually do anything else these days.

[Dog]

Ditto, except on the Season One books. Not terribly interested in yet ANOTHER retelling of books that have reprints and reprints of the original stories.

You're not the intended audience.

[DownInAHole]

If new readers are having trouble knowing where to start, wouldn't it be smarter to focus on core titles instead of launching new ones very year? If a new reader walks into a store and sees a dozen different X-men titles, wouldn't he just be confused?
Titles like Astonishing X-men and X-men vol. 3 are nothing more than redundant. Marvel needs to cut the fat or it will die of obesity. ;/

Very true. I am willing to give Marvel the benefit of the doubt but I really do not see how/why those titles can continue in a post Schism world. I mean no offence to the creators but Daniel Way, Jason Pearson, Christos Gage and Juan Bobillo are well short of being A-list creative teams that can command $3.99. The only thing keeping those books going is blind greed on the part of Marvel. Maybe when the current arcs wrap there will be a shakeup that will give them a reason to exist but that seems unlikely.

[d00gZ]

The funny part is that Marvel writer Mark Waid was on that panel.

http://www.comic-con.org/cci/cci11_prog_sat.php

[Kiel Phegley!]

OKay first off in response to Tom

Matt and Terry Dodson, which is an A-list creative team

No they really arent. The fans have both voted with their dollar and online yet you choose to ignore it. Well done.

As for CBR and this column in genral. Shame on you!

The one question that should have been asked this week is about the comics for comics/DC thing.

I don't know whether Marvel refuese to answer certain questions or whether you just don't want to rock the boat. But do not call yourselves comic journalists.

You are now in my eyes offiicialy what Wizard became. I'm embarresed for fans everyhwere that you, as the biggest comics news site feels the need to pander to the big two. They need you as much as you need them and hence should be willing to respect you as journalists not just as a way of hyping up their product which is obviously what is happening here.

Its all good and well doing what Newsarama don't do anymore and letting the fans have their say but seriously shouldn't you as journalists be asking the questions that are on the fans minds.

Very disapointed. Stop being a free advertisement for the big comic companies and start having some integrity.

Dude, get over yourself. Not only is poneley extremely right that Marvel's opinion on this exact kind of promo is well known (because in case you weren't reading, we covered it extensively in this very column the first time they did it), but the idea that me passing along your guff about this issue or not deciding whether or not I'm a "real journalist" or whatever is laughable.

Yeah, we talk about Marvel's products a lot in this column, but that's what most people from retailers to fans come here to get a clearer idea of, AND keeping people who pay for this stuff informed of what it is in an honest fashion is what any news source SHOULD be doing. Plus, it's not like we don't cover all sorts of other wide ranging comic issues in this space or on CBR in general. I can guarantee you that when there are important issues in both the business and culture of comics that warrant comment from a Marvel exec, we'll ask the best questions and get the most thorough, thoughtful responses of any site on the web.

As for the rant about how I'm shameful or "offiicialy" like Wizard or any other kind of chump change, entitled fanboy B.S. you're trying to flex on me, take a walk with it. There are plenty of people here who would rather have civil, normal exchange about comics.

[Dog]

Plus, I'm pretty sure Brevoort answered a bunch of questions about it when they did the Blackest Night promotion. I'm sure the answers haven't changed.

[ComicsAreForFun]

When I saw that they had a panel on comics dying out, i thoght it was ridiculous and disrespectful most of all considering the circumstance. Peoples negative attitudes on the boards are really disrespectful and only hurt the industry. If no one talks about comics dying and looks at the big picture then it is not that bad.

I wish everyone would be more respectful to the industry and look at what they say. If they truly cared about comics then this ridiculous negativity woul end.

Well said Mr Brevoort on you new "Mouth off"

[Blade X]

OKay first off in response to Tom

Matt and Terry Dodson, which is an A-list creative team

No they really arent. The fans have both voted with their dollar and online yet you choose to ignore it. Well done.




Just because MArvel call someone and architect doesnt mean they are Alist.

Fraction has seen sales dropm on all his titles even with the help of events and renumbering. His X-Men was pretty much critically panned by fans and criitcs alike and the sales reflected that. So what do you do with someone who has failed to set sales alight.

You put them in charge of the next big event. How does that pan out. Well it sells the same as Siege pretty much for the first issue and then drops 25% of readers whilst being criticised for being boring and going nowhere.



Quoted for the ever lovin blue eyed truth.

Marvel seems to be taking a cue from WIZARD MAGAZINE and creating their own "star system" for their creators, which (IMO) is a very bad idea. What's even worse, this "star system" seems to be partly based on the "buddy system". In other words (and to quote legendary internet poster OM), "It's not what you know, but who you blow".

[Hulk_Is]

Thanks, Tom, for putting the naysayers in thier places! :applause:

Whoever drew that Hulk for W&S needs to be put on the regular Hulk book. Wow, a full head of hair.

I'm gleefully excited about Point One. I loved the .1 issues anyhow, but a glimpse into a future event... take my money now Marvel! lol

[ComicsAreForFun]

Yeah like that exactly

[SquidSquod]

Point One needs more ladies and Namor

[Pizawle]

While I am not fully on board with what Tom said at the end, I applaud him for the stand and the optimism, which in these times is always a delight to witness.

I do support the fact that people need to stop saying "This is why the industry is doomed" and anything in that vein. Anyone can focus on the problem. How about speaking of how to ensure the future? With a positive attitude to boot!

And the constant quality complaints. People, if you dislike it simply move on or learn to express yourselves in a more articulate manner. PLEASE! For all our sakes.

[Blade X]

If new readers are having trouble knowing where to start, wouldn't it be smarter to focus on core titles instead of launching new ones very year? If a new reader walks into a store and sees a dozen different X-men titles, wouldn't he just be confused?
Titles like Astonishing X-men and X-men vol. 3 are nothing more than redundant. Marvel needs to cut the fat or it will die of obesity. ;/

I agree.

Here's a question that is rarely asked whenever the the Big 2 talks about attracting new readers. What type of "new reader" are they looking to attract? Do they want a wide all ages audience to read their books? Do they only (or mainly) want to attract teens and adults who watch their superhero movies to read their comics (based on the content, I would say "yes")?

[Pixie_Solanas]

When I saw that they had a panel on comics dying out, i thoght it was ridiculous and disrespectful most of all considering the circumstance. Peoples negative attitudes on the boards are really disrespectful and only hurt the industry. If no one talks about comics dying and looks at the big picture then it is not that bad.

I wish everyone would be more respectful to the industry and look at what they say. If they truly cared about comics then this ridiculous negativity woul end.

Well said Mr Brevoort on you new "Mouth off"

Agreed. The panel was just more pro-digital bleating.

[rauj13]

So... am I the only one who likes the Dodson's? I think they're fantastic.

[Prince Of Orphans]

I like the Dodsons too. I don't get the negativity.

[Brian from Canada]

Comics for comics was not a major announcement at SDCC. Defenders, Cable, Point One, day-to-date releases, and the OGNs were.

And, quite frankly, the OGNs are a major issue. Joe Quesada said they'd never do it, and was pretty hard on DC for doing it. I like the fact that Tom Breevort said another (unidentified non-comic) factor made it viable — something we're not privy too — and that, as a new business model, it makes sense. On those grounds, Joe Q. can still be in the right up until this new avenue opened, and Tom's defended the OGN move decently enough that it no longer carries the stink of hypocrisy that everyone labelled it with when it was announced.

Point One was understated too at SDCC, but mostly I think because Tom wasn't there. Tom's big on pushing the idea that Marvel plans out the general universe trends and then lets the architects drive the pace there while regular stories are written. Point One gives us glimpses of 2012 (other than the hint Hope has green eyes and red hair for a reason), and it may pay off.

The last time they did something like this, we got Thunderbolts as a title. I'm willing to give them a chance.

These were two issues worth talking about and I'm glad they were the focus because Tom will always try to state it cleanly to the fans while still keeping the propriety information inside. It may not always work, but you can always see his desire to make an effort.

Which is why his final point is so valuable. THANK YOU, TOM, FOR YOUR INPUT ON THIS MATTER. As a reader, I was highly disgusted to see CCI use the "death" of comics to point out the increasing difficulty of self publishing — when they could have just as easily done a panel about the difficulties in self publishing in print vs digital and kept the overall industry complaints out.

Overall, there are TOO MANY COMPANIES publishing comics. Just check out Previews for proof. Marvel's not even there and it's thick enough to bludgeon a small child with. Half the thing is comics, and only half of that is the majors. If some disappear, who will really notice these days? Sad, yes, but necessary every so often because the comic stores and the comic readers have to be able to let the drudgery go.

But this is not the death of comics. And as more and more people trumpet the digital realm (hello, DC), there's still the reminder time and time again that the medium is still providing the same type of content, just as music is still structured around the vinyl LP and books are still structured around the printed copy.

[Brian from Canada]

Titles like Astonishing X-men and X-men vol. 3 are nothing more than redundant. Marvel needs to cut the fat or it will die of obesity. ;/

I third this. New Avengers makes Avengers sound old — or reprints.

But it's a dangerous crossroads. If you get rid of titles like this, it makes it harder to identify franchise groups like Avengers and X-Men.

Personally, I think Marvel needs to think back to the 80s a bit and ask three key questions:

What makes this book different from all others (and therefore deserving to stay in print)?
Can you sum up that uniqueness in one sentence?
Can you differentiate it easily from all other titles on the shelf?


X-Men can't. I see Astonishing, Uncanny, Legacy, X-Men… I can't tell which one is different. (And with Wolverine & The X-Men, um... isn't he an X-Man according to the movies?) Avengers can't either.

"Schism" is the perfect chaff. It's only because of sales they don't want to risk replacing it with something less popular.

Personally, if it were up to me, I'd drop everything except Wolverine & The X-Men (aka team one), Uncanny X-Force (strike team), Uncanny X-Men (non-Wolverine group), Astonishing X-Men (opposite team in the field), New Mutants (training group) and X-Factor. Cull the rest, even Wolverine. And then put in titles like Alpha Flight, Excalibur, Starjammers, etc. that are definitively aside from the others IF you can find the right creative team and angle on them.

[Scavenger]

And, quite frankly, the OGNs are a major issue. Joe Quesada said they'd never do it, and was pretty hard on DC for doing it. I like the fact that Tom Breevort said another (unidentified non-comic) factor made it viable — something we're not privy too — and that, as a new business model, it makes sense. .

I'm thinking a Disney Store push of Marvel prestige items.

[RolandJP]

I'm thinking a Disney Store push of Marvel prestige items.

Great Idea. Marvel in Disney Stores = possible new readers.

[superchick]

Yaggi_Rck has been thinking of another side of Thor as he asked, "What happened to Donald Blake? He played a big role in Straczynski's run and appeared briefly in Fraction's 'Thor' #615. I know that right now there's 'Fear Itself' and the Galactus story to deal with in the Thor titles, but will we see the character appear again? Has his disappeareance have anything to do with the fact that he wasn't included in the movie?"

Brevoort: Yaggi, for you I went right to the horse’s mouth and asked MIGHTY THOR writer Matt Fraction:

Fraction: I just didn't have room for the guy, is the sad and simple truth, as things in THOR have been pretty over-the-top busy for the Asgardians. In "Fear Itself" the voice of the human folk are heard elsewhere and in "The Galactus Seed" the voice of the regular man is pretty well served by Pastor Mike and his ilk I thought. Anyway I just plain didn't have the space to give to the characters.

I've not written Jane, either, who was the second lead in the film so the movie's got nothing to do with it.

That said, Jane shows up next in "Shattered Heroes: Thor" and then I just yesterday wrote a Jane and Don scene that'll be in "The Might Thor" #8. Jane, Don, and Erik all have a big part in the story that comes next.

Its worrying to me that a writer can't remember writing a character for 3 issues this year alone. He really sums up why I can't connect with his Thor. Too much abstract asgardian stuff and not enough stuff with the human characters we give a damn about.

Also, maybe the movie should have something to do with it. It did a lot right and quite a few people I know have said 'I didn't like/get Thor before but the movie was awesome'. I think a lot of that is about the humanity of the movie, not just the human characters but the relatable family drama.

He brings up a spoilery bit though. If Thor's dead how can Don have anything to do with what is coming up?

[Vivica Kang]

*Sigh* Marvel does not know what they want. Disney is doing a good job supporting them...But trying hook new readers in by releasing the same crap? Is that not what paperbacks are for?:confused:
I mean I am pretty sure people don't have them on display.

[YouthofToday]

Great Idea. Marvel in Disney Stores = possible new readers.
I was thinking these would be in Disney Stores as well, but it could be something bigger, like a deal with Target or Walmart.

I said this another thread about these Season 1 books last week. Who cares if they are going against what they've said in the past. They obviously have come up with a model that makes this format worth a shot.

[stephen wacker]

I was thinking these would be in Disney Stores as well, but it could be something bigger, like a deal with Target or Walmart.

I said this another thread about these Season 1 books last week. Who cares if they are going against what they've said in the past. They obviously have come up with a model that makes this format worth a shot.

They sell Marvel Comics at Disney.

SW

[TheDonAbides]

They sell Marvel Comics at Disney.

SW

Where? I've been to three lately and I haven't seen hide nor hair of any comics. Some Spidey underoos, yes, but no comics.

Maybe it's just the stores near me down in Baltimore.

[theXfactor]

I third this. New Avengers makes Avengers sound old — or reprints.

But it's a dangerous crossroads. If you get rid of titles like this, it makes it harder to identify franchise groups like Avengers and X-Men.


Personally, I think Marvel needs to think back to the 80s a bit and ask three key questions:
What makes this book different from all others (and therefore deserving to stay in print)?
Can you sum up that uniqueness in one sentence?
Can you differentiate it easily from all other titles on the shelf?

X-Men can't. I see Astonishing, Uncanny, Legacy, X-Men… I can't tell which one is different. (And with Wolverine & The X-Men, um... isn't he an X-Man according to the movies?) Avengers can't either.

"Schism" is the perfect chaff. It's only because of sales they don't want to risk replacing it with something less popular.

Personally, if it were up to me, I'd drop everything except Wolverine & The X-Men (aka team one), Uncanny X-Force (strike team), Uncanny X-Men (non-Wolverine group), Astonishing X-Men (opposite team in the field), New Mutants (training group) and X-Factor. Cull the rest, even Wolverine. And then put in titles like Alpha Flight, Excalibur, Starjammers, etc. that are definitively aside from the others IF you can find the right creative team and angle on them.

I think there should be only two series with "X-men" on the title. Having two series isn't confusing, anyone would understan that, but 4? A new-reader would have no clue what the difference between them is.
The same goes for Avengers and NA. Even after reading the first arcs of both series, I still have no idea of what sets the teams apart. They even have two members in common!

[Nemoidian]

"Lastly, we're going to try out a new segment of the column this week where Tom takes some time to pontificate on the industry at large in a segment we call…well, who knows?? Maybe the boards have a good idea."

HatRant?

"This time up, I wanted to speak about a strange and particularly self-destructive streak that our industry and fanbase seems to have, wherein we’re all too quick and gleeful in predicting our own demise. This thought was sparked by the fact that there was a panel at the San Diego Comic-Con about how the traditional comic book is dying out."

Which, I think, is correct to say, and far more realistic than pessimistic at this point. This isn't to say that the medium (sequential art) will die off, but the format (monthly floppies, which provide too little content for the price, IMO) will. It will be interesting to see what, if any, affect this format shift will have on the paradigm of comics as a whole, and I think I am starting to see an industry-wide movement away from superheroes, who excel in open-ended universes, to other genres that do better with a well delineated beginning, middle, and end. But I admit I'm hardly an expert on such matters.

[DownInAHole]

I think there should be only two series with "X-men" on the title. Having two series isn't confusing, anyone would understan that, but 4? A new-reader would have no clue what the difference between them is.
The same goes for Avengers and NA. Even after reading the first arcs of both series, I still have no idea of what sets the teams apart. They even have two members in common!

I think come November there will be five X-Men books all set in the "core" Marvel Universe (Uncanny X-Men, Wolverine and the X-Men, X-Men Legacy, X-Men and Astonishing X-Men). I think that the first three of these books will each have different and distinct casts, which I am fine with, but I am not sure what purpose the last two books will serve or how they will fit in to the new direction of the line.

[Spidey616]

So THAT'S what happened to Avengers Three. Wonder what the basic premise/outline was.

[Rheged]

I think come November there will be five X-Men books all set in the "core" Marvel Universe (Uncanny X-Men, Wolverine and the X-Men, X-Men Legacy, X-Men and Astonishing X-Men). I think that the first three of these books will each have different and distinct casts, which I am fine with, but I am not sure what purpose the last two books will serve or how they will fit in to the new direction of the line.

X-Men is supposedly their regular MU team up book / adventures that don't lead directly into an event.

Astonishing X-Men, like all the Astonishing books, is supposedly a continuity light book to attract the mythical new readers.

Both of these books could easily go away, especially now, when they basically feature the same page hogging cast.

[theXfactor]

I think come November there will be five X-Men books all set in the "core" Marvel Universe (Uncanny X-Men, Wolverine and the X-Men, X-Men Legacy, X-Men and Astonishing X-Men). I think that the first three of these books will each have different and distinct casts, which I am fine with, but I am not sure what purpose the last two books will serve or how they will fit in to the new direction of the line.

eah Iknw. X-men and Astonishing will probably continue being as redundant after the event as they are now.
I'd rather Marvel published its titles more often and focused more on quality intead of lanching 50 crappy books every year. ;/

[shadow panther]

Just because MArvel call someone and architect doesnt mean they are Alist.

Fraction has seen sales dropm on all his titles even with the help of events and renumbering. His X-Men was pretty much critically panned by fans and criitcs alike and the sales reflected that. So what do you do with someone who has failed to set sales alight.

You put them in charge of the next big event. How does that pan out. Well it sells the same as Siege pretty much for the first issue and then drops 25% of readers whilst being criticised for being boring and going nowhere.

Now someone is going to say comics sell less now than last year. Maybe, but there are many comics that have stayed steady in this climate. Peter Davids X-Factor for one. X-Force another.

Comics arent shedding readers. Bad comics are.

Fear Itself has been one huge snoozefest. I stay away from anything written by Fraction

[Rheged]

You're not the intended audience.

Entirely true. Which is why I won't be buying it.

I don't think either of the big two of have been very effective at gaining this new reader audience, and I understand why they keep trying, but it seems often at the expense of the readers they already have.

[Rheged]

eah Iknw. X-men and Astonishing will probably continue being as redundant after the event as they are now.
I'd rather Marvel published its titles more often and focused more on quality intead of lanching 50 crappy books every year. ;/

O_o

I think it's DC that's launching 50 books this year.

And no. Not particularly interested in seeing Wolverine or SpiderMan published MORE times a year. No thank you.

[Rheged]

Point One needs more ladies and Namor

Damn straight skippy!

Just makes me cry every time I see another gorgeous preview of Aquaman and see how much DC is supporting and pushing their water baby.

[theXfactor]

O_o

I think it's DC that's launching 50 books this year.

And no. Not particularly interested in seeing Wolverine or SpiderMan published MORE times a year. No thank you.

I was exagerating, of course, but Marvel sure comes close to launching that many titles a year.
And I really would prefer more of Wolverine and ASM instead of titles like The Best There Is and Avenging Spider-Man.

[Rheged]

I was exagerating, of course, but Marvel sure comes close to launching that many titles a year.
And I really would prefer more of Wolverine and ASM instead of titles like The Best There Is and Avenging Spider-Man.

Marvel does launch a lot of titles, both mini-series and one-shots -- and I feel bad for retailers. But that is the only place to find characters that aren't cash cows and where they will experiment. I'm willing to put up with all the Wolverine extra books, which I don't buy, if I can cherry pick titles like Mystery Men, All Winners, the Namora One Shot, Five Ronin, The Deep, those 70th Anniversary titles, Last Defenders, etc.

[Pyramid]

Uggh ... seeing the Point 1 promo made me cringe. I hate ... well, maybe hate is a bit strong; dislike, maybe ... Marvel's new numbering system and that's what I thought of when I saw the promo. This new numbering system actually stopped me from buying the new GH title.

As for the questions cbr asked, I really felt they were a little weak. I'm not expecting Woodward and Bernstein but I was expecting more. As a comic book reader I was interested to hear how Marvel is reacting, or what they think, about the fan's reaction to the variant cover for DC's Flashpoint number 1s? Do they care? Are they going to feed us some corporate BS answer? Either way, I'm curious to Marvel's response. I'm also curious about how they view Millar's recent banter about outselling the big two?

[Skaddix]

Point One needs more ladies and Namor

So Point One is primarily a setup for various teams well that sounds sort of interesting.

Still yeah only one lady on the cover and two black guys. Yeah marvel is not winning in fair rep.

[Rheged]

So Point One is primarily a setup for various teams well that sounds sort of interesting.

Still yeah only one lady on the cover and two black guys. Yeah marvel is not winning in fair rep.

I think the Ghostrider may also be a woman... kind of hard to tell from a flaming skull, though. :tongue:

If so, that would be 20%. Which isn't bad, but not exactly excellent either -- plus, no Asians or Hispanics. :frown:

[Skaddix]

I think the Ghostrider may also be a woman... kind of hard to tell from a flaming skull, though. :tongue:

If so, that would be 20%. Which isn't bad, but not exactly excellent either -- plus, no Asians or Hispanics. :frown:

Good Point 20% is horrible especially since race/ethnicity and gender are not mutually exclusive. I mean seriously minority rep should be somewhere between 30-40% to reflect US Demographics. Probably Higher Since most Marvel Stories take place in NYC or the Big cities in Cali. And female should be about equal.

Still as long as it focuses on teams, I am good.

I hope Fearless follows BD lead and focuses on lesser characters but this is marvel so I kinda doubt that.

[Neutrino]

HatRant?


The Hat Talks Back!

Feedback Hat

Hat-ful Words

The Brevoort Report (it's almost too obvious...)

Hatter to the Haters

...I have all week, right?

Tom's Candid Hat (you know... like the six thinking hats?)

Under the Hat

[Rheged]

Good Point 20% is horrible especially since race/ethnicity and gender are not mutually exclusive. I mean seriously minority rep should be somewhere between 30-40% to reflect US Demographics. Probably Higher Since most Marvel Stories take place in NYC or the Big cities in Cali. And female should be about equal.

Still as long as it focuses on teams, I am good.

I hope Fearless follows BD lead and focuses on lesser characters but this is marvel so I kinda doubt that.

You're never going to get 40%, much less anything that resembles US demographics or half female. Those aren't the groups who buys Marvel comics. Especially for an event lead in.

Yeah, I'm not too excited about Fearless, but I haven't seen much of it yet.

[ComicsAreForFun]

So Point One is primarily a setup for various teams well that sounds sort of interesting.

Still yeah only one lady on the cover and two black guys. Yeah marvel is not winning in fair rep.

Well if more people would buy women or black titles then they would be more balanced. Not Marvels fault people dont buy them or that the target market is white male

[Skaddix]

You're never going to get 40%, much less anything that resembles US demographics or half female. Those aren't the groups who buys Marvel comics. Especially for an event lead in.

Yeah, I'm not too excited about Fearless, but I haven't seen much of it yet.

I know overall I am talking teams though which should be way better then they are. Sure fringe teams do better but the main ones are disgraceful

[Skaddix]

Well if more people would buy women or black titles then they would be more balanced. Not Marvels fault people dont buy them or that the target market is white male

Well marvels limited targeting is there fault but the rest true

[Prince Of Orphans]

The Hat Talks Back!

Feedback Hat

Hat-ful Words

The Brevoort Report (it's almost too obvious...)

Hatter to the Haters

...I have all week, right?

Tom's Candid Hat (you know... like the six thinking hats?)

Under the Hat

Hatters Gonna Hat :P

[Rheged]

Well if more people would buy women or black titles then they would be more balanced. Not Marvels fault people dont buy them or that the target market is white male

It's not that simple. Everyone shares a portion of the blame.

It's hard for me to blame the audience, because truthfully, I'm not going to buy a book I have no interest in reading. I would have bought Girl Comics, despite the name, but the stories were less than interesting to me. And then there was that She-Hulk cheesecake pinup??? Well, I guess if you are aiming for the lesbian market, okay, but otherwise, WTF?

So, I blame Marvel for not figuring out HOW to make money off women and minorities. Cause once they figure that out, I'm sure the diversity of their universe will improve.

Oh, and I also blame for them for the art mess on Namor's last book. :mad:

[zenbullet]

Personally, if it were up to me, I'd drop everything except Wolverine & The X-Men (aka team one), Uncanny X-Force (strike team), Uncanny X-Men (non-Wolverine group), Astonishing X-Men (opposite team in the field), New Mutants (training group) and X-Factor. Cull the rest, even Wolverine. And then put in titles like Alpha Flight, Excalibur, Starjammers, etc. that are definitively aside from the others IF you can find the right creative team and angle on them.

You realize there are three books called X-men on this list? I have no idea what's being published outside the UU and Uncanny X-Force, but this list seems way bloated with too many titles to me....

And if this is a simplified list no frakking wonder it's too hard to keep up...

You want to simplify? Put out four X books a month and call them all something different.

Although if I had to put out a list it would be, Uncanny X-Force, Astonishing X-Men, Wolverine, X-Factor and New Mutants, which is five and I don't have any idea what's going on any of these books, but just based on name recognition alone.

[SquidSquod]

I think the Ghostrider may also be a woman... kind of hard to tell from a flaming skull, though. :tongue:

If so, that would be 20%. Which isn't bad, but not exactly excellent either -- plus, no Asians or Hispanics. :frown:

I myself am Asian, and don't mind that there's no Asian character shown. Because there hasn't been any one that's important and interesting.. yet. I'm hoping for an improvement in the near future though starting with Shang Chi and Amadeus Cho.

Back to why Namor should be in Point One.. because he's important to Marveldom. He's more important than Flash Thompson/Nu Venom. Hey if DC constantly pushes the more ridiculed sea dweller, why can't Namor do the same thing for the arguably oldest anti-hero in the modern comicdom? As to more women, Marvel has Ms Marvel, Storm, Hellcat and Spider-Woman. Use them, because they can open the flood of female readers.

[SquidSquod]

Damn straight skippy!

Just makes me cry every time I see another gorgeous preview of Aquaman and see how much DC is supporting and pushing their water baby.

I'm always a staunch Namor supporter even if Shellhead and Mr. Mckenzie constantly grazes one another. :biggrin:

[Skaddix]

I myself am Asian, and don't mind that there's no Asian character shown. Because there hasn't been any one that's important and interesting.. yet. I'm hoping for an improvement in the near future though starting with Shang Chi and Amadeus Cho.

Back to why Namor should be in Point One.. because he's important to Marveldom. He's more important than Flash Thompson/Nu Venom. Hey if DC constantly pushes the more ridiculed sea dweller, why can't Namor do the same thing for the arguably oldest anti-hero in the modern comicdom? As to more women, Marvel has Ms Marvel, Storm, Hellcat and Spider-Woman. Use them, because they can open the flood of female readers.

Yeah besides Shang Chi not or Cho not many options. Maybe Mantis.

And but u see Aquaman being ridicule means he has name recognition which is good. But yeah the Avengers and especially the X-men have done a crap job using females on their more core titles.

[ComicsAreForFun]

Well marvels limited targeting is there fault but the rest true

Its not that they limit it, it just happens to be a certain demographic. Marvel and DC both.

[Rheged]

Its not that they limit it, it just happens to be a certain demographic. Marvel and DC both.

Of course, Marvel limits it's targeting. They don't have unlimited resources and can just throw money away on books that don't sell enough to break even. They are a business, not a non-profit, minority awareness organization.

Nor did this demographic 'just happen.' If you write white male empowerment figures and scantily clad gorgeous females, you're intentionally targeting a certain audience. And that particular demographic makes perfect business sense, since it's the largest and wealthiest in this country.

I do believe Marvel would LOVE to make more money off minorities and women, but they just haven't found a way to do so yet.

[Rheged]

I myself am Asian, and don't mind that there's no Asian character shown. Because there hasn't been any one that's important and interesting.. yet. I'm hoping for an improvement in the near future though starting with Shang Chi and Amadeus Cho.

I'm half Asian, and I'd like to see some representation, whether it's on the cover or in the book. But sadly, as you say, there aren't too many Asian characters that could do so. But I'd have to disagree, and say both of those characters you've named are interesting and have played some important roles -- and could do so again. I'd also add Jimmy Woo to the list. And while he hasn't been given anything important to do, Sunfire always livens up a book. :tongue:



Back to why Namor should be in Point One.. because he's important to Marveldom. He's more important than Flash Thompson/Nu Venom. Hey if DC constantly pushes the more ridiculed sea dweller, why can't Namor do the same thing for the arguably oldest anti-hero in the modern comicdom? As to more women, Marvel has Ms Marvel, Storm, Hellcat and Spider-Woman. Use them, because they can open the flood of female readers.

Well, I'm glad to see someone else feels Namor's important, but I don't think Marvel feels that way. Maybe I should send Tom a copy of Fire and Water: Bill Everett, the Sub-Mariner and the Birth of Marvel Comics. Because of his history, he's got connections with most of the Marvel U, and rules 3/4s of the world, but he's rarely used, even in events that he helped set up??? He's a founding member of the Defenders and you don't even give him a teaser poster?

There's a reason why Namor was one of the big three in the Golden Age, why DC felt and feels the need to make copies of him, why the character has survived the history of Marvel comics relatively unchanged, and why anti-heroes like Wolverine and Punisher and villains like Doom and Magneto do well at Marvel -- where the first anti-hero paved the way. It's too bad that Marvel doesn't remember that and give the character the same sort of artistic support they give to NuVenom and Moon Knight and a number of faces on that Point One cover. :mad:


I'm always a staunch Namor supporter even if Shellhead and Mr. Mckenzie constantly grazes one another. :biggrin:

LOL! If Namor and Iron Man got along their meetings wouldn't be half as interesting. :wink:

[DownInAHole]

Yeah besides Shang Chi not or Cho not many options. Maybe Mantis.

And but u see Aquaman being ridicule means he has name recognition which is good. But yeah the Avengers and especially the X-men have done a crap job using females on their more core titles.

I really long for the late '80s when Uncanny X-Men featured the same number of women as men (Colossus, Havok, Longshot, Wolverine, Dazzler, Psylocke, Rogue and Storm).

Excalibur actually featured a cast with more women (Kitty Pryde, Meggan and Rachel Summers) than men (Captain Britain and Nightcrawler).

We have received a ton of Emma Frost and a bit of Rogue in recent years but otherwise the female X-Men have been woefully underused. There really ought to be an editorial mandate that each book should feature a cast that is 40-50% female. There are tons of great female characters that already exist in the x-universe, there is really no reason not to use them.

[theXfactor]

Marvel does launch a lot of titles, both mini-series and one-shots -- and I feel bad for retailers. But that is the only place to find characters that aren't cash cows and where they will experiment. I'm willing to put up with all the Wolverine extra books, which I don't buy, if I can cherry pick titles like Mystery Men, All Winners, the Namora One Shot, Five Ronin, The Deep, those 70th Anniversary titles, Last Defenders, etc.

You missed my point. I was saying that Marvel publishes too many books of its popular franchises and that the amount of titles with basically the same name could confuse new readers.
Having only one books with the name Wolverine that came out twice a month would be a lot better than one main title and another ancillary title that is nothing but redundant and isn't even very good.
I don't know what all the books you mentioned have to do with what I'm saying.

[theXfactor]

I really long for the late '80s when Uncanny X-Men featured the same number of women as men (Colossus, Havok, Longshot, Wolverine, Dazzler, Psylocke, Rogue and Storm).

Excalibur actually featured a cast with more women (Kitty Pryde, Meggan and Rachel Summers) than men (Captain Britain and Nightcrawler).

We have received a ton of Emma Frost and a bit of Rogue in recent years but otherwise the female X-Men have been woefully underused. There really ought to be an editorial mandate that each book should feature a cast that is 40-50% female. There are tons of great female characters that already exist in the x-universe, there is really no reason not to use them.

Agreed. It's sad to se many great female characters like Storm and Dazzler being relegated to wallpaper material. Rogue, Emma, Psylocke and Hope are the only X-women that really seem important these days.

[Rheged]

You missed my point. I was saying that Marvel publishes too many books of its popular franchises and that the amount of titles with basically the same name could confuse new readers.
Having only one books with the name Wolverine that came out twice a month would be a lot better than one main title and another ancillary title that is nothing but redundant and isn't even very good.
I don't know what all the books you mentioned have to do with what I'm saying.

It's easy to miss your point when you didn't say popular franchises and complained about "50 crappy books" being published. Sorry I couldn't figure out you were talking only about 50 crappy popular franchise books from what you posted.

The books I listed are among the tons of books Marvel publishes, which I enjoy, even if I they have to share the rack with more crappy Wolverine / Spider-Man / Avengers / X-Men titles that Marvel deluges the market with. It isn't all crap new titles, was my point.

[theXfactor]

It's easy to miss your point when you didn't say popular franchises and complained about "50 crappy books" being published. Sorry I couldn't figure out you were talking only about 50 crappy popular franchise books from what you posted.

The books I listed are among the tons of books Marvel publishes, which I enjoy, even if I they have to share the rack with more crappy Wolverine / Spider-Man / Avengers / X-Men titles that Marvel deluges the market with. It isn't all crap new titles, was my point.

LOL. I was talking about Avengers and X-men having too many titles. Maybe youshould pay more attention or don'te evn bother quoting me :wink:

[ComicsAreForFun]

Of course, Marvel limits it's targeting. They don't have unlimited resources and can just throw money away on books that don't sell enough to break even. They are a business, not a non-profit, minority awareness organization.

Nor did this demographic 'just happen.' If you write white male empowerment figures and scantily clad gorgeous females, you're intentionally targeting a certain audience. And that particular demographic makes perfect business sense, since it's the largest and wealthiest in this country.

I do believe Marvel would LOVE to make more money off minorities and women, but they just haven't found a way to do so yet.

Its not that they cant, its that minorities are just that. They arent the ones reading the books.

I believe Marvel does a good job of offering up a lot of gender and ethnic characters and gives them an opportunity to shine. Blue Marvel for example. They give him a chance and people complain when they cancel him and call Marvel prejudice but not enough people bought his book. Same with Black Panther, they give him tons of opportunites and always have to change the way his book is but they keep him around as the minority anchor even though he probably doesnt sell well enough to keep a continuous ongoing.

[ComicsAreForFun]

I really long for the late '80s when Uncanny X-Men featured the same number of women as men (Colossus, Havok, Longshot, Wolverine, Dazzler, Psylocke, Rogue and Storm).

Excalibur actually featured a cast with more women (Kitty Pryde, Meggan and Rachel Summers) than men (Captain Britain and Nightcrawler).

We have received a ton of Emma Frost and a bit of Rogue in recent years but otherwise the female X-Men have been woefully underused. There really ought to be an editorial mandate that each book should feature a cast that is 40-50% female. There are tons of great female characters that already exist in the x-universe, there is really no reason not to use them.

How so?????

Pixie was the main anchor of the first arc after UXM #500 and had her own mini series. Storm had her own mini series. X-23 has her own series. Psylocke had an arc in UXM dedicated to her and then her own mini series and is now a big anchor in Uncanny X-Force. Jubilee has been a huge focus in X-Men and co starred in a mini series. The number of female stories in the Serve and Protect mini series outnumbered the male ones. Kitty was the main plot thread throughout Astonishing X-Men and has been huge in UXM since her return. I really see no validation in your arguement

[Skaddix]

How so?????

Pixie was the main anchor of the first arc after UXM #500 and had her own mini series. Storm had her own mini series. X-23 has her own series. Psylocke had an arc in UXM dedicated to her and then her own mini series and is now a big anchor in Uncanny X-Force. Jubilee has been a huge focus in X-Men and co starred in a mini series. The number of female stories in the Serve and Protect mini series outnumbered the male ones. Kitty was the main plot thread throughout Astonishing X-Men and has been huge in UXM since her return. I really see no validation in your arguement

Those are fringe books. They have done little in the core books.

[Comicbookfan]

Hey Tom,

Do you guys have any Plans For NOVA any time soon? I have recently gone back and read some back issues and i really enjoyed how the character grew up and evolved in the MU. I Am some one that enjoys that about comics the evolution of a character. I enjoy how a character can be different from one point in his creation to the other. And i just wanted to Know if NOVA could have any second chances at life in the MU But please no REBOOTS! (I am sure there is a creative way for some one to survive a collapsing universe)

and on that note any more Marvel Cosmic Projects coming?

[DownInAHole]

How so?????

Pixie was the main anchor of the first arc after UXM #500 and had her own mini series. Storm had her own mini series. X-23 has her own series. Psylocke had an arc in UXM dedicated to her and then her own mini series and is now a big anchor in Uncanny X-Force. Jubilee has been a huge focus in X-Men and co starred in a mini series. The number of female stories in the Serve and Protect mini series outnumbered the male ones. Kitty was the main plot thread throughout Astonishing X-Men and has been huge in UXM since her return. I really see no validation in your arguement

There have been female characters featured in mini's and one-shots but those are rarely, if ever, referenced in the main books and are typically ignored so they do not have the importance of the main books. If we are going to have 3-5 X-Men titles that all take place in the same core universe surely there is room to spotlight some of the underused female characters. For me one of the great things about the X-Men has always been the strong female characters but in recent years many of them have been pushed into the background and are not being used to their full potential.

Other than Emma, and to a lesser degree Rogue, over the last five years none of the women in the x-books have been given a large role over a significant period of time. Sometimes a character will have an arc where they are featured but then they quickly fade into the background again. You mentioned Pixie who was given a bit of a push but over the last thirty issues or so of Uncanny X-Men she has been very much a background character. Psylocke has a decent role now in Uncanny X-Force but for the last few years she was essentially little more than wallpaper. Storm? I don't know what is going on with her and Marvel seem confused as to what role they want her to play. The whole marriage to the Black Panther really messed her up and she hasn't really recovered from the damage that did to her as a character. Kitty? Yes, it is true that she was heavily featured in Astonishing X-Men but since then she hasn't really done much. I guess what I want to see is some consistency. Give the books a manageable core cast and stick with them. I'm optimistic that in the post Schism world that is exactly what we will get and after the mess that Uncanny has been the last few years some defined casts are just what we need.

[theXfactor]

There have been female characters featured in mini's and one-shots but those are rarely, if ever, referenced in the main books and are typically ignored so they do not have the importance of the main books. If we are going to have 3-5 X-Men titles that all take place in the same core universe surely there is room to spotlight some of the underused female characters. For me one of the great things about the X-Men has always been the strong female characters but in recent years many of them have been pushed into the background and are not being used to their full potential.

Other than Emma, and to a lesser degree Rogue, over the last five years none of the women in the x-books have been given a large role over a significant period of time. Sometimes a character will have an arc where they are featured but then they quickly fade into the background again. You mentioned Pixie who was given a bit of a push but over the last thirty issues or so of Uncanny X-Men she has been very much a background character. Psylocke has a decent role now in Uncanny X-Force but for the last few years she was essentially little more than wallpaper. Storm? I don't know what is going on with her and Marvel seem confused as to what role they want her to play. The whole marriage to the Black Panther really messed her up and she hasn't really recovered from the damage that did to her as a character. Kitty? Yes, it is true that she was heavily featured in Astonishing X-Men but since then she hasn't really done much. I guess what I want to see is some consistency. Give the books a manageable core cast and stick with them. I'm optimistic that in the post Schism world that is exactly what we will get and after the mess that Uncanny has been the last few years some defined casts are just what we need.

I agree with everything, except the part where you say you're still optimistic. Year of reading X-comics have shown me that even when you think it can't get worse, it really does.
Not holding my breath, but who knows? Maybe I'll be suprised.

[Rheged]

LOL. I was talking about Avengers and X-men having too many titles. Maybe youshould pay more attention or don'te evn bother quoting me :wink:

I've a better ideal. I'll just stop wasting my time trying to decipher your less than clearly written posts.

[theXfactor]

I've a better ideal. I'll just stop wasting my time trying to decipher your less than clearly written posts.

Yeah, it's too much for your brain. Go get some rest.

[Rheged]

Its not that they cant, its that minorities are just that. They arent the ones reading the books.

I believe Marvel does a good job of offering up a lot of gender and ethnic characters and gives them an opportunity to shine. Blue Marvel for example. They give him a chance and people complain when they cancel him and call Marvel prejudice but not enough people bought his book. Same with Black Panther, they give him tons of opportunites and always have to change the way his book is but they keep him around as the minority anchor even though he probably doesnt sell well enough to keep a continuous ongoing.

Women get lumped in with minorities because of the way they are treated, but they actually make up 50% of the population and buy way more reading material (and other things) than men. Do you really think Marvel CAN reach those readers, and just isn't because they aren't reading the books NOW? Sales are declining. Why wouldn't Marvel want to expand their market?

Marvel didn't cancel Blue Marvel's book, it was solicited as a mini-series.

[Rheged]

How so?????

Pixie was the main anchor of the first arc after UXM #500 and had her own mini series. Storm had her own mini series. X-23 has her own series. Psylocke had an arc in UXM dedicated to her and then her own mini series and is now a big anchor in Uncanny X-Force. Jubilee has been a huge focus in X-Men and co starred in a mini series. The number of female stories in the Serve and Protect mini series outnumbered the male ones. Kitty was the main plot thread throughout Astonishing X-Men and has been huge in UXM since her return. I really see no validation in your arguement

There's no comparing the role of women in the X-books in previous decades to the the role of women in X-books in the last five years or so. He's made an entirely valid complaint.

[Brian from Canada]

There's a reason why Namor was one of the big three in the Golden Age, why DC felt and feels the need to make copies of him, why the character has survived the history of Marvel comics relatively unchanged, and why anti-heroes like Wolverine and Punisher and villains like Doom and Magneto do well at Marvel -- where the first anti-hero paved the way.

There's also a bigger reason why those other characters are getting more attention at Marvel: they have reasons to be there.

As much as Sub-Mariner is important to the foundations of the Marvel Universe, go back and take a good long look at his history. He needed the war to excuse his continued absence from Aquaria (the original Atlantis) — before he got involved, he was using every excuse he could find, from needing a wife to Aquaria being under attack.

But once that war ends, there is no more excuse. He needs to come up with other explanations for why he leaves his people — only to be turned into an anti-hero once more with an attack on the surface world. This time, though, it's not Human Torch alone that protects New York, you have The Fantastic Four touching off a much larger and more powerful group than before… and the structure of the MU dictates that Namor be on the enemy side for all the new heroes too by extension.

It takes a détente to stop his desire for war, at which points he quests for a great weapon to stop Attuma and/or rescue Dorma (in Tales To Astonish), because EVEN WITH the passage of time, there STILL isn't anything in Atlantis to keep our attention for months at a time. And that's how it goes up to the present.

Namor has to lose his people to have interest in Atlantis, or have his throne under attack by one of the two or three villains capable of conquering an underwater people. The rest of the time, he spends looking to the surface, but what reason do they have to keep him there without him becoming redundant?

At least with the present status, he connects to the surface because The X-Men and Atlantis are joined geographically. But The X-Men don't have much need of him either, so it's not a workable situation either that can generate excitement without getting a writer who brings along the right balance for it all.


It's too bad that Marvel doesn't remember that and give the character the same sort of artistic support they give to NuVenom and Moon Knight and a number of faces on that Point One cover. :mad:

Sorry, Namor doesn't deserve Point One's cover. If this book is designed to excite people over what's coming in the following year, then having the cover feature all members of The Avengers' movie cast is vital, as is having Spider-Man (movie, digital) and the two leaders of X-Men's split (Cyclops and Wolverine).

Once you take those away — as well as the five getting new titles (Daredevil, Punisher, Moon Knight, Ghost Rider and, for The Defenders, Iron Fist) — there's not much room left.

Black Panther I can see getting more attention because he's in the cartoon and, I suspect, will have a larger role in The Avengers. Luke Cage's Thunderbolts may have a role in the next event too. Mr. Fantastic represents FF and Hickman's grand conclusion. And Deadpool's still-semi-popular to get "Evil Deadpool" hyped at SDCC.

Which leaves Venom — still noticeable by younger generations — and a character I think is Herc. Either way, they probably have a bigger role in Marvel's promotion at the moment than Namor.

[Brian from Canada]

There's no comparing the role of women in the X-books in previous decades to the the role of women in X-books in the last five years or so. He's made an entirely valid complaint.

Agreed. Though I'd go one further and say that's always been the way of the X-books. 4:1 on the original team, 7:1 on the All-New (later 6:2)… only the period of Rachel through Australia is different, and that's not the run often talked about.

Only side books work differently. New Mutants is predominantly female, as was X-Force for quite a while. The present X-Factor was also pretty balanced until Peter David shifted the cast a bit.

[ComicsAreForFun]

X-23 has her own solo book. Who other than Wolverine on the X-Men has one?

Hope has been huuuuugggeee since her inception. Female characters get a lot of face time these days and the ones that dont are ones that cannot hold interest in a majority and therefore should not get spotlight, just like any other character male or female.

And you say that they are only fringe books ( referencing the minis i mentioned) but other than Wolverine there havent been any male dominated minis in a while, they are only female. which goes back to my point about females not being able to hold a majority interest, most can only sustain minis

[Skaddix]

X-23 has her own solo book. Who other than Wolverine on the X-Men has one?

Hope has been huuuuugggeee since her inception. Female characters get a lot of face time these days and the ones that dont are ones that cannot hold interest in a majority and therefore should not get spotlight, just like any other character male or female.

And you say that they are only fringe books ( referencing the minis i mentioned) but other than Wolverine there havent been any male dominated minis in a while, they are only female. which goes back to my point about females not being able to hold a majority interest, most can only sustain minis

Not compared to the past. Seriously I am guessing u have not read much X-men.

Right most males cannot sustain anything more then minis either so what is your point.

[Rheged]

There's also a bigger reason why those other characters are getting more attention at Marvel: they have reasons to be there.

As much as Sub-Mariner is important to the foundations of the Marvel Universe, go back and take a good long look at his history. He needed the war to excuse his continued absence from Aquaria (the original Atlantis) — before he got involved, he was using every excuse he could find, from needing a wife to Aquaria being under attack.

No. Originally, Namor didn't rule, so he didn't really need an excuse to leave Atlantis. His story and character was set up to constantly leave and be the Avenging Son. This is stated in the first issue, where his mother tells him to go forth and wage war against the white man. Later, as the story develops (and WWII broke out) he becomes more of an intermediary between the two worlds. Plus, this is a problem any character that isn't from NYC faces ... like Thor. Unlike Thor, Namor has a reason for being here in that he's half human, and trying to deal with that or reconcile the two halves of his heritage.


But once that war ends, there is no more excuse. He needs to come up with other explanations for why he leaves his people — only to be turned into an anti-hero once more with an attack on the surface world. This time, though, it's not Human Torch alone that protects New York, you have The Fantastic Four touching off a much larger and more powerful group than before… and the structure of the MU dictates that Namor be on the enemy side for all the new heroes too by extension.

Again, Namor wasn't ruling and needed no excuse. He was written like Tony Stark, using his company for it's resources, but we rarely see him putting a day in at the office. After WWII ended, Namor did return to the surface for his Atlas era SF / mystery adventures simply because Betty Dean and the US government asked him to -- and as a war hero, not an anti-hero. And even in those early FF days, it wasn't set up for Namor to be strictly an enemy to the heroes -- he was the character that reminded readers that there was two sides to every conflict.


It takes a détente to stop his desire for war, at which points he quests for a great weapon to stop Attuma and/or rescue Dorma (in Tales To Astonish), because EVEN WITH the passage of time, there STILL isn't anything in Atlantis to keep our attention for months at a time. And that's how it goes up to the present.

Namor has to lose his people to have interest in Atlantis, or have his throne under attack by one of the two or three villains capable of conquering an underwater people. The rest of the time, he spends looking to the surface, but what reason do they have to keep him there without him becoming redundant?

Again, this is very much like Thor. No one wants to read about Asgard (or NYC for that matter), unless there's a conflict of events or characters going on. It's the same with Atlantis. And I disagree, as Atlantis and the underwater aspect of Namor is part of what makes him unique. There's so much cool ocean stuff that could be done just on the visual side. There have been writers that have picked up on this and done some great high fantasy vibe stories -- but no one has written about it long enough or in sufficient detail to make the undersea world as interesting as it should be or used it as an analog or metaphor for real world problems.

And yes, that's how it was done in the past. I expect something different to be done today -- like dealing with the globalization of countries, for example. As much as Atlantis would like to stay hidden away from the surface world, that just isn't possible anymore. And I have to disagree again, there's tons of new plot hooks and opportunities that Marvel created specifically for Namor and Atlantis to have a role on the surface, that are never used:

Secret Invasion, Namor was one of the Illuminati that went and gave them the finger. And nothing came of that.
The Cabal -- what a waste of a great idea.
Asgardians in Latveria ... supposedly there were Atlanteans in Latveria at the same time.
DoomWar, where Namor suddenly disappeared before the event?
The Serpent Crowns in Secret Avengers -- or heck what about Roxxon?
The magic angle of Atlantis.
The Olympian Neptune connection in Chaos War.
Fear Itself: Atlantean blood summoned the Serpent's first hammer, but do you think that will play any role in this event?
The fact that there's an Atlantean fifth column living on the surface world.
Where the heck is Lemuria while Atlantis is settling two colonies in the Pacific?
Even in the X-Books, when Namor's connections to the regular MU should be exploited, that never happens.


At least with the present status, he connects to the surface because The X-Men and Atlantis are joined geographically. But The X-Men don't have much need of him either, so it's not a workable situation either that can generate excitement without getting a writer who brings along the right balance for it all.

Exactly my complaint. Why is DC realizing the potential of their copy of Namor and doing that, but Marvel isn't? I really enjoyed what Stuart Moore was doing on Namor's last ongoing, but I had to Google him, and every artist (and there were lots of them) on the book, except Olivetti -- who kept getting yanked off the book and never did more than two full issues in a row.


Sorry, Namor doesn't deserve Point One's cover. If this book is designed to excite people over what's coming in the following year, then having the cover feature all members of The Avengers' movie cast is vital, as is having Spider-Man (movie, digital) and the two leaders of X-Men's split (Cyclops and Wolverine).
<snip>

Which leaves Venom — still noticeable by younger generations — and a character I think is Herc. Either way, they probably have a bigger role in Marvel's promotion at the moment than Namor.

I didn't say I thought Namor deserved to be on the Point One promo. I understand most of those characters on that promo will have a bigger role in promotion than Namor, because they will actually have a role in the next big event. Namor's not going to have a role, hence he's not on the cover. My complaint is that Namor (as well as a number of other characters -- I'm looking at you Cosmic / International / Horror Marvel) COULD have role in the event, HAD they been given the support / talent behind most of the characters they are pushing on that cover. I mean, for goodness sakes ... Moon Knight??? No slam against the character, but how does he bring more to an event than Namor? TomB keeps talking about how there's only room for older, established characters, and they push Moon Knight? Okaaaay.

I understand these are the characters that Marvel wants us to be excited about, but I'm tired of most of them. They're terribly overexposed and so many of them are noir / street heroes. I understand these characters are going to be in movies, but I'm not interested in reading comic books that _support_ movies. I want to read comic books that _inspire_ movies.

And yes. As a long time Marvel fan, it annoys me endlessly, that I'm going to have to go to DC to see a copy of my favorite character treated right or to read a magic based book or an international superhero group or a space book. :mad:

[Rheged]

X-23 has her own solo book. Who other than Wolverine on the X-Men has one?

Hope has been huuuuugggeee since her inception. Female characters get a lot of face time these days and the ones that dont are ones that cannot hold interest in a majority and therefore should not get spotlight, just like any other character male or female.

And you say that they are only fringe books ( referencing the minis i mentioned) but other than Wolverine there havent been any male dominated minis in a while, they are only female. which goes back to my point about females not being able to hold a majority interest, most can only sustain minis

X-23 IS Wolverine. Daken, another Wolverine, has a book, though he's a mutant, not an X-Man.

Hope has spent over half of her comic book career as a baby, who did nothing but wet her diaper. Hardly what I would call a lot of face time.

[SquidSquod]

I mean, for goodness sakes ... Moon Knight??? No slam against the character, but how does he bring more to an event than Namor? TomB keeps talking about how there's only room for older, established characters, and they push Moon Knight? Okaaaay.


Moon Knight has much potential. Other than his schizo personality and mercenary background, he actually builds everything with his own hand. He's no silver spoon son like Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne. If Luke Cage can have a spot where he doesn't even solo a bit, Marc Spector can get a spot.

I'd replace Venom with Namor. It's not the same 90's famous Venom and you can't do much with a villain.

[Skaddix]

Moon Knight has much potential. Other than his schizo personality and mercenary background, he actually builds everything with his own hand. He's no silver spoon son like Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne. If Luke Cage can have a spot where he doesn't even solo a bit, Marc Spector can get a spot.

I'd replace Venom with Namor. It's not the same 90's famous Venom and you can't do much with a villain.

I don't think it matters on the Team if Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark are silver spoon or not. Seeing as their intellect greatly outstrips the Moon Knight's not to mention their cash is useful. As for Cage, he leads two teams.

[SquidSquod]

I don't think it matters on the Team if Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark are silver spoon or not. Seeing as their intellect greatly outstrips the Moon Knight's not to mention their cash is useful. As for Cage, he leads two teams.

If I were Marvel, I'd make Marc Spector the de facto money & commodity dealer of the MU. He's not good with science, but like many rich guys today he makes money from deals and buy techs accordingly. This son of a Rabbi is a financial genius par excellence.

[Metal Sphere]

Whoa, Brevoort's explanation of what the Point One book is made my interest in it skyrocket. New stories for each of those characters (and the groups they're affliated with) giving us a taste of what's coming up in 2012? I'm all for it.

[Rheged]

Moon Knight has much potential. Other than his schizo personality and mercenary background, he actually builds everything with his own hand. He's no silver spoon son like Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne. If Luke Cage can have a spot where he doesn't even solo a bit, Marc Spector can get a spot.

I'd replace Venom with Namor. It's not the same 90's famous Venom and you can't do much with a villain.

I thought this Venom was on the side of angels? Or at least the side of the government. :biggrin:

Moon Knight is only there because Bendis is rebooting the book for what, the third or fourth time in five years? And according to Bendis himself, he's doing the book because JoeyQ asked him to pitch the title with him and Maleev on it. THAT is what I'm talking about. There are other characters that could use that kind of push from editorial for known artists and writers. I get miffed that it isn't Namor, for obvious reasons, and because it's frustrating to see it done at DC.

That said, to be fair, it's entirely possible editorial has tried to push Namor, but can't get a team to bite. :frown:



I don't think it matters on the Team if Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark are silver spoon or not. Seeing as their intellect greatly outstrips the Moon Knight's not to mention their cash is useful. As for Cage, he leads two teams.

Yes, Cage leads an Avenger team, so that gets him on the cover automatically, as well as is another Bendis baby.

[ComicsAreForFun]

Not compared to the past. Seriously I am guessing u have not read much X-men.

Right most males cannot sustain anything more then minis either so what is your point.

You obviously dont get my point. Im saying that females get a ton of attention. And I have read more X-Men than you, I can guarantee that. It feels as if youre choosing to complain about women's rights and are using comics as an excuse, even though they clearly are not getting put aside.

I really cannot see how women are being treated worngly in terms of exposure. Marvel even gave them their own initiative.

[Rheged]

You obviously dont get my point. Im saying that females get a ton of attention. And I have read more X-Men than you, I can guarantee that. It feels as if youre choosing to complain about women's rights and are using comics as an excuse, even though they clearly are not getting put aside.

I really cannot see how women are being treated worngly in terms of exposure. Marvel even gave them their own initiative.

Your point is wrong. The portrayal of women in comics at Marvel is much lower than it has been in the past. And their roles in those comics are of less significance. Is there even a single team that is led by a women at present? I don't think so.

I don't doubt that _you_ don't see how shabby the situation is for women in comics, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

[Wolf_Leader]

The X-Men books are such a poor example of anything. Who other than Cyclops and Wolverine get any real panel time? For any male that can be listed there is at least one female to match them. Emma is always there, Kitty shows up all the time, Rogue is the lead in Legacy and Hope is the most important mutant on the planet (until Scarlet Witch comes back). Now, there may be criticism as far as what is being done with those characters, but again that's a problem with the X-Men books that extends to the scores of males that allegedly dominate books.

[Wolf_Leader]

Is there even a single team that is led by a women at present? I don't think so.
Moonstar leads the New Mutants
Rogue leads the Legacy team (has this changed?)
Hope leads the lights, with Kitty as some sort of chaperone

Not bad considering everyone else reports to Scott.

[Rheged]

The X-Men books are such a poor example of anything. Who other than Cyclops and Wolverine get any real panel time? For any male that can be listed there is at least one female to match them. Emma is always there, Kitty shows up all the time, Rogue is the lead in Legacy and Hope is the most important mutant on the planet (until Scarlet Witch comes back). Now, there may be criticism as far as what is being done with those characters, but again that's a problem with the X-Men books that extends to the scores of males that allegedly dominate books.

Again. We're talking about the PAST X-Men books compared to the present X-books. And even if we go by what you are saying (which to an extent is true in that most characters are wallpaper), it still leaves what was in the PAST a female dominated line, reduced to the story of two male characters.

[Rheged]

Moonstar leads the New Mutants
Rogue leads the Legacy team (has this changed?)
Hope leads the lights, with Kitty as some sort of chaperone

Not bad considering everyone else reports to Scott.

I believe, though I could be wrong, that Canonball led the New Mutants until recently, as Moonstar was depowered. I think she may have stepped up, though in the recent arc.

No, I think Xavier is leading the Legacy team at present, though Rogue seems to be the focus of the storytelling.

And that leaves Hope, who seems to be more of a cult leader of some sort, under the supervision of other X-characters.

So, I'm counting Moonstar as one female team leader (who reports to an overall male X-leader) ... in all of Marvel?

[Wolf_Leader]

I believe, though I could be wrong, that Canonball led the New Mutants until recently, as Moonstar was depowered. I think she may have stepped up, though in the recent arc.

No, I think Xavier is leading the Legacy team at present, though Rogue seems to be the focus of the storytelling.

And that leaves Hope, who seems to be more of a cult leader of some sort, under the supervision of other X-characters.

So, I'm counting Moonstar as one female team leader (who reports to an overall male X-leader) ... in all of Marvel?
Well how many teams are there in all of Marvel these days? Everything is pretty much lumped under the X-Men or Avengers, which means everyone is led by either Scott Summers or Steve Rogers. Again, I think this is just more of a matter of poor management of Marvel all together as opposed to some deliberate policy to put female leads to the side. It seems as if the course of Marvel over the last 10 years has been to push everyone to the side to build up some recognizable faces. And I guess in that regard Marvel can be fairly criticized for not building up any of the great female characters they have, but it is definitely not a case of purging female characters from team lists and replacing them with males.

[jyeager11]

Hey Tom,

Do you guys have any Plans For NOVA any time soon? I have recently gone back and read some back issues and i really enjoyed how the character grew up and evolved in the MU. I Am some one that enjoys that about comics the evolution of a character. I enjoy how a character can be different from one point in his creation to the other. And i just wanted to Know if NOVA could have any second chances at life in the MU But please no REBOOTS! (I am sure there is a creative way for some one to survive a collapsing universe)

Marvel probably figured you can already follow the adventures of Nova and the Nova Corps monthly in any one of the Green Lantern books.

[Brian from Canada]

I get miffed that it isn't Namor, for obvious reasons, and because it's frustrating to see it done at DC.

Only DC isn't really doing that. Seriously, from the time Morrison relaunched JLA in the nineties into the present, is there ANY story where Aquaman plays a major role other than his disappearance into the past during the war?

Aquaman is wallpaper. In the JLA, he's not even a heavy hitter — that role goes to Superman, Green Lantern and Wonder Woman. In the DCU, he's not even an A-lister — that role goes to Superman, Batman and maybe Green Lantern and/or Wonder Woman.

Aquaman's title, for any of those who actually bothered to read it, is either crusading for environmental issues re: the oceans OR it's some palace intrigue in Atlantis because of some magical threat.

Aquaman is not a good team-up character because, like Namor, his villains have to be undersea too, and that's a lot harder to come up with a rogue's gallery for. But unlike Namor, he's also useless on the surface — or, at least was until they kept coming up with other solutions.

Aquaman is getting the front cover of the JLA because of history only. He was popular in the 60s — more popular than Batman! — and had a cartoon. It kept him one of the five Superfriends for a decade. But post-1985? He's a joke.

Namor at least has respect. To quote The Big Bang Theory: "Aquaman sucks!"

[Pixie_Solanas]

Moonstar leads the New Mutants
Rogue leads the Legacy team (has this changed?)
Hope leads the lights, with Kitty as some sort of chaperone

Not bad considering everyone else reports to Scott.

Moonstar's a woman by the most tenuous of pretenses.

[Rheged]

Only DC isn't really doing that. Seriously, from the time Morrison relaunched JLA in the nineties into the present, is there ANY story where Aquaman plays a major role other than his disappearance into the past during the war?

I am talking about Aquaman's _recent_ treatment by DC, where they are trying their best to make him an A-List character and much more like Namor, with Geoff Johns and Ivan Reis on the creative team. Not only did he have a large role in ... Brightest Day, but he's also got one in Flashpoint. That's the sort of push, I'm whining about. ;) And have you read Emperor Aquaman? Heck, just look at the cover. Color in the hair black and WHO does that look like?

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/66037/1848679-screen_capture_4_large.png (http://www.comicvine.com/screen_capture_4/105-1848679/)

I didn't read much of Aquaman in the past, in part for the reasons you stated, and in part because I've always been a Marvel fan and a Namor nut. I DID love Craig Hamilton's Aquaman miniseries for the art and Peter David's Atlantis Chronicles, which was great AND did wonders for making Atlantis interesting. I'd love to see something like that at Marvel, but it probably wouldn't see well at all as things are. :(

[ComicsAreForFun]

Moonstar leads the New Mutants
Rogue leads the Legacy team (has this changed?)
Hope leads the lights, with Kitty as some sort of chaperone

Not bad considering everyone else reports to Scott.

Exactly. And if you read X-Factor youll get a lot of female face time, Rahne, Layla, Monet and Siryn. Hell, even Rictor and Shatterstar for extra minority face time.