What if "the endless" were to be involved in the next "Crisis"?

[piloting]

In terms of power level and control “the Endless” are most likely on par with or above the Monitors I think.It would have been interesting if they meet (I can imagine a Monitor asking if they’ve ever meet these guys and if not why).If they were ever to be brought in to another DC “Crisis” story the stakes presented by them have the potential to be probably beyond anything previously seen (SERIOUSLY though) since were talking about like life concepts here. Even though I know that the Vertigo imprint likes to keep its characters to itself I really think that manifestations of life concepts out of all entities should play a bigger part in mainstream DC and an event like this could very much be the kind of scenario for the start of a stronger presence from them in the DCU.Thanks for ya time.

[MajorHoy]

Y'know, part of me is still hoping that Final Crisis was the Final Crisis (at least for the next 10 - 20 years!!!)

[Retro315]

Post Final Crisis, we've still gotten "Annual crossover mega-events", mainlining the Justice League heroes, primarily. Blackest Night. Flashpoint. Next year we get Multiversity, which will surely be more insular and subversive, but quite eventful - like Seven Soldiers.

After that I do wonder if perhaps DC will stick to the "It's a League-level event, but headlined by one character in particular" thing. I do hope it's a couple years first, so there can be some serious building in the solo titles. Wonder Woman and Aquaman should get their due, though, now that Flash and GL have headlined events.

Then again, hopefully every Justice League story arc pretty much "covers the crossover event" requirements.

[dupersuper]

Neil Gaiman would be annoyed?

[Pól Rua]

a. I would be impressed that Dan DiDio had invented a way for me to think less of him.
b. Neil Gaiman might be miffed.
c. If he was foolish enough to complain, he would be roundly pilloried by fanboys with the same vigour they do Moore for being 'arrogant' enough to try and deprive them of their 22 pages of paper crack a month.
d The doomsday clock would tick one second closer to the creative heat-death of the universe.

[Icefalcon]

"Endless Crisis"

Don't give them ideas!

[FanboyStranger]

I think it would be a horrible idea. Not just because it cheapens what Gaiman did with the characters, but because from a story standpoint it makes no sense. The Endless are personifications of concepts that exist within life/human conditions-- I say "human" because that's how they're presented within the context of Sandman; we know that these are universal concepts, but except for Dream appearing as a Martian god or a cat, they're presented in the form that relates to humanity-- and we know that they are bound within the parameters of themselves-- Destiny can't see anything that's not within his book/himself, for example. The Endless (besides Death, I guess) can't just do whatever they want, and in that respect, they're not really that powerful at all. Even Desire, the Endless most likely to act in a way that is considered "villainous", can't really do anything but make someone want something, and really, isn't that the motivation behind every villain, even Darkseid and the Anti-Monitor? I guess you could have a threat to the Dreaming or Destiny or whatever (like Morrison did in JLA), but that just sort of the lowers the concepts to the level of standard superhero plot, which really misses the point if not done in a grand manner. (In Morrison's story, it's not that the Dreaming is under physical assault, but that the Starro infestation has taken away humanity's ability to dream at all, which is an attack on Dream himself.) I really liked it when Paul Cornell had Death dismiss Blackest Night in Action Comics because she said what we were all thinking.

That's not to say that the Endless or the denizens of the Dreaming or whatever should never appear in a superhero comic; they just shouldn't be the focus of one, particularly a big event. It was cool when Lucien or Lucifer would make brief appearances in Ostrander's Spectre.

[Sean Walsh]

I would think the Endless would just sit around during the entire event being quite bored with it......wondering why this should interest or bother them in the slightest...

....and maybe even wondering on several occassions why Paul Cornell isn't writing it. :wink:

[Hatut Zeraze]

Yuck.

................

[Superbeast]

A whole bunch of former goths and lesbians would write mass amounts of hatemail to DC until they stopped "destroying my alternative years as a teenager".

[Scud]

I'm not to fond of this idea either.

[piloting]

@ FanboyStranger

Liked your response.Could you please explain what you mean by

"The Endless are personifications of concepts that exist within life/human conditions-- I say "human" because that's how they're presented within the context of Sandman; we know that these are universal concepts, but except for Dream appearing as a Martian god or a cat, they're presented in the form that relates to humanity-- and we know that they are bound within the parameters of themselves-- Destiny can't see anything that's not within his book/himself, for example. The Endless (besides Death, I guess) can't just do whatever they want, and in that respect, they're not really that powerful at all. Even Desire, the Endless most likely to act in a way that is considered "villainous", can't really do anything but make someone want something, and really, isn't that the motivation behind every villain, even Darkseid and the Anti-Monitor?"

In that last quoted sentance what do you mean?.Whenever Darksied or the Anti-monitor desired something like the anti-life equation or destroying universes it was because "Desire" of the endless was controlling them or they had those crazy ambitions without Desire even having to get involved.Maybe because there not really that powerful as you said in "The Endless (besides Death, I guess) can't just do whatever they want, and in that respect, they're not really that powerful at all"?.

Now as kind reciprocation for sharing that opinion hears something I found on wikipedia that I think you (and people such as thoses who have disliked any of the "Crisises" espeically "Final crisis") might find interesting and/or clarifiying

"A new metafictional origin for the Monitors, including the first one featured in Crisis on Infinite Earths, is later given during the Final Crisis.

There is revealed that the Monitor himself was nothing but a probe sent by an unseen, yet powerful being, an Overmonitor, the Original Monitor, an incorporeal and unfathomable being of limitless imagination who became aware of the concept of stories by stumbling upon the original Multiverse, which existed as a minute lesion within itself. Willing to understand it fully, he fashioned a probe allowing him to interact with the budding Universes. However, corrupted by the sheer complexity of Multiverse, the probe was split into two symmetrical and complementary beings: the Monitor and the Anti-Monitor, a being of pure good and a being of pure evil battling one against the other as told in the Crisis on Infinite Earths.[Hmm..where does Krona trying to look at the creation of the universe fit in here though?]

The attempt to know and map the Universe was deemed a partial success, as after the death and the rebirth of the Universe from Dax Novu, the Firstborn of the Monitors (it's still uncertain if Dax Novu was meant to be the Monitor himself, or a later creation of the Overmonitor), a new race of Monitors was spawned in the World of Nil, the netherworld surrounding the universe. These Monitors, made each one different by accepting the concept of time and mortality, became a race of cosmic vampires, feasting and needing stories to stay alive. On their world they grew in time a fascination with the Superman mythology, the very first story they came to know, employing a thought robot with the appearance of the original Superman (the Earth-1 version) to guard them against menaces.[4] The same concept of time and mortality, and the repressed loathing the original Monitor had for the germs, the beings living in the Multiverse, turned Dax Novu into Mandrakk, the Dark Monitor, the negation of life itself.[5] Superman, inhabiting the Thought Robot, defeats Mandrakk/Dax Novu. Later, a different incarnation of Mandrakk (Rox Ogama), battles his son, Nix Uotan, and is killed during the Final Crisis by the Green Lanterns.

In the end, Superman heals the damaged Multiverse with a replica of the Miracle Machine. However, Nix Uotan, now with the appearance of a human being living in Metropolis, retains his role as the sole link between the Overmonitor and the Multiverse.[6]"

Pssstt...double props for anyone who can further explain this and summarize it's meaning if they can (I think I got most of that thing I quoted from wikipedia though).Does'nt this "Overmontior" fellow sound like an the embodiement of a life principle like "the Endless".Dang, would I like to see them get together and chat or something.Does'nt metafiction play I role in "The Endless"-seses series?.

Sorry if I've sounded cantankerous in any of this(I dont mean to).It's just that what peeves me off so much about the Endless is there lack of involvement in the DC universe!(even after making a few appearances).I mean really,Destiny appeared when some alien cult that worshipped chance and some "Legion of superheroes" villians were involved in stealing his book and he goes to ask for help from Supergirl and Lobo BUT they wont appear ([I]where were they?[,watching from the sidelines? ) when an extremely powerful being (a Monitor realizes) the concept of "stories" that keep them alive (like the Superman mythos) and begins to destroy the Multiverse (which IMO could have and might as well have included them).WHAT'S UP WITH THAT!.>:(.

The Endless are NOT like say "Fables","DMZ" or "100 bullets" that are completely self-contained,isolated,now and forever from the mainstream DC universe.From what I've read I'll agree with the people who say it's a bad idea (I LOLed at the "Endless crisis" comment).However if there were to be another "Crisis" I would at least like to see something like this from "the Endless".

The next time there's a "Crisis" the JLA get transported to some dimesion.They meet the Endless.They explain to the JLA that this is'nt like anything they've been up agianest before (my pitch for the antagonist in this case:some living force of terror but I guess there's probably better ideas).They talk to the JLA,give them tips and something that will help them.Maybe like a mystical artifact or artifacts or something or maybe something wild like a "meta-reality" device or devices.Personally (okay I'll be honest this might be coming out of my dislike for them) but I'd also like to see one of the get socked by Bats,Supes or Wonder woman (I'm thinking Destruction,Dream or Desire) in a very memorable picture with the rest of the Endless and JLA looking shocked.The puncher replies with something like "sorry but that's for [letting my parents get killed,letting Krypton be destroyed or letting Themyscira be destroyed although I know it might show I bit of obstinate insecurity if the heroes said that b/c it would show they never got over those events].The hero apologizes for doing that saying that sometimes in their life they've blamed stuff b/c of random destruction,horrible dreams or the bad desire of people.Also,after the Crisis there's an epilogue where the Endless comment over what happened,what was done and start doubt their understanding of the actions,personalities,intentions of the DC universe characters (has'nt this happened at some point to them?) and say that they'll keep a closer eye on the DCU.

[Theozilla]

@ FanboyStranger

Liked your response.Could you please explain what you mean by

"The Endless are personifications of concepts that exist within life/human conditions-- I say "human" because that's how they're presented within the context of Sandman; we know that these are universal concepts, but except for Dream appearing as a Martian god or a cat, they're presented in the form that relates to humanity-- and we know that they are bound within the parameters of themselves-- Destiny can't see anything that's not within his book/himself, for example. The Endless (besides Death, I guess) can't just do whatever they want, and in that respect, they're not really that powerful at all. Even Desire, the Endless most likely to act in a way that is considered "villainous", can't really do anything but make someone want something, and really, isn't that the motivation behind every villain, even Darkseid and the Anti-Monitor?"

In that last quoted sentance what do you mean?.Whenever Darksied or the Anti-monitor desired something like the anti-life equation or destroying universes it was because "Desire" of the endless was controlling them or they had those crazy ambitions without Desire even having to get involved.Maybe because there not really that powerful as you said in "The Endless (besides Death, I guess) can't just do whatever they want, and in that respect, they're not really that powerful at all"?.

Now as kind reciprocation for sharing that opinion hears something I found on wikipedia that I think you (and people such as thoses who have disliked any of the "Crisises" espeically "Final crisis") might find interesting and/or clarifiying

"A new metafictional origin for the Monitors, including the first one featured in Crisis on Infinite Earths, is later given during the Final Crisis.

There is revealed that the Monitor himself was nothing but a probe sent by an unseen, yet powerful being, an Overmonitor, the Original Monitor, an incorporeal and unfathomable being of limitless imagination who became aware of the concept of stories by stumbling upon the original Multiverse, which existed as a minute lesion within itself. Willing to understand it fully, he fashioned a probe allowing him to interact with the budding Universes. However, corrupted by the sheer complexity of Multiverse, the probe was split into two symmetrical and complementary beings: the Monitor and the Anti-Monitor, a being of pure good and a being of pure evil battling one against the other as told in the Crisis on Infinite Earths.[Hmm..where does Krona trying to look at the creation of the universe fit in here though?]

The attempt to know and map the Universe was deemed a partial success, as after the death and the rebirth of the Universe from Dax Novu, the Firstborn of the Monitors (it's still uncertain if Dax Novu was meant to be the Monitor himself, or a later creation of the Overmonitor), a new race of Monitors was spawned in the World of Nil, the netherworld surrounding the universe. These Monitors, made each one different by accepting the concept of time and mortality, became a race of cosmic vampires, feasting and needing stories to stay alive. On their world they grew in time a fascination with the Superman mythology, the very first story they came to know, employing a thought robot with the appearance of the original Superman (the Earth-1 version) to guard them against menaces.[4] The same concept of time and mortality, and the repressed loathing the original Monitor had for the germs, the beings living in the Multiverse, turned Dax Novu into Mandrakk, the Dark Monitor, the negation of life itself.[5] Superman, inhabiting the Thought Robot, defeats Mandrakk/Dax Novu. Later, a different incarnation of Mandrakk (Rox Ogama), battles his son, Nix Uotan, and is killed during the Final Crisis by the Green Lanterns.

In the end, Superman heals the damaged Multiverse with a replica of the Miracle Machine. However, Nix Uotan, now with the appearance of a human being living in Metropolis, retains his role as the sole link between the Overmonitor and the Multiverse.[6]"

Pssstt...double props for anyone who can further explain this and summarize it's meaning if they can (I think I got most of that thing I quoted from wikipedia though).Does'nt this "Overmontior" fellow sound like an the embodiement of a life principle like "the Endless".Dang, would I like to see them get together and chat or something.Does'nt metafiction play I role in "The Endless"-seses series?.

Sorry if I've sounded cantankerous in any of this(I dont mean to).It's just that what peeves me off so much about the Endless is there lack of involvement in the DC universe!(even after making a few appearances).I mean really,Destiny appeared when some alien cult that worshipped chance and some "Legion of superheroes" villians were involved in stealing his book and he goes to ask for help from Supergirl and Lobo BUT they wont appear ([I]where were they?[,watching from the sidelines? ) when an extremely powerful being (a Monitor realizes) the concept of "stories" that keep them alive (like the Superman mythos) and begins to destroy the Multiverse (which IMO could have and might as well have included them).WHAT'S UP WITH THAT!.>:(.

The Endless are NOT like say "Fables","DMZ" or "100 bullets" that are completely self-contained,isolated,now and forever from the mainstream DC universe.From what I've read I'll agree with the people who say it's a bad idea (I LOLed at the "Endless crisis" comment).However if there were to be another "Crisis" I would at least like to see something like this from "the Endless".

The next time there's a "Crisis" the JLA get transported to some dimesion.They meet the Endless.They explain to the JLA that this is'nt like anything they've been up agianest before (my pitch for the antagonist in this case:some living force of terror but I guess there's probably better ideas).They talk to the JLA,give them tips and something that will help them.Maybe like a mystical artifact or artifacts or something or maybe something wild like a "meta-reality" device or devices.Personally (okay I'll be honest this might be coming out of my dislike for them) but I'd also like to see one of the get socked by Bats,Supes or Wonder woman (I'm thinking Destruction,Dream or Desire) in a very memorable picture with the rest of the Endless and JLA looking shocked.The puncher replies with something like "sorry but that's for [letting my parents get killed,letting Krypton be destroyed or letting Themyscira be destroyed although I know it might show I bit of obstinate insecurity if the heroes said that b/c it would show they never got over those events].The hero apologizes for doing that saying that sometimes in their life they've blamed stuff b/c of random destruction,horrible dreams or the bad desire of people.Also,after the Crisis there's an epilogue where the Endless comment over what happened,what was done and start doubt their understanding of the actions,personalities,intentions of the DC universe characters (has'nt this happened at some point to them?) and say that they'll keep a closer eye on the DCU.

Your misunderstanding the function of the Endless, they don't get involved in things because they are always part of the universe because they are the patterns of the universe. The don't control intervene because it is not their function.

[piloting]

@ Theozilla

Like the emotion entites (Ion,Parralax etc) or like the "Overmonitor"?

[Apathy Lad]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/44/qYEHdX4X3jbl68kcr4EO5pvdo1_500.jpg

[FanboyStranger]

@ FanboyStranger

Liked your response.Could you please explain what you mean by

"The Endless are personifications of concepts that exist within life/human conditions-- I say "human" because that's how they're presented within the context of Sandman; we know that these are universal concepts, but except for Dream appearing as a Martian god or a cat, they're presented in the form that relates to humanity-- and we know that they are bound within the parameters of themselves[I]-- Destiny can't see anything that's not within his book/himself, for example. The Endless (besides Death, I guess) can't just do whatever they want, and in that respect, they're not really that powerful at all. Even Desire, the Endless most likely to act in a way that is considered "villainous", can't really do anything but make someone want something, and really, isn't that the motivation behind every villain, even Darkseid and the Anti-Monitor?"

In that last quoted sentance what do you mean?.Whenever Darksied or the Anti-monitor desired something like the anti-life equation or destroying universes it was because "Desire" of the endless was controlling them or they had those crazy ambitions without Desire even having to get involved.Maybe because there not really that powerful as you said in "The Endless (besides Death, I guess) can't just do whatever they want, and in that respect, they're not really that powerful at all"?.



I didn't want to quote the whole thing because it's so long, but it's definitely an interesting question. The short answer is that Desire is desire-- we see "her/him" as a being that our minds can process, but that form is just what we can understand. All living beings feel desire in some form, including supervillains. It's not that the embodiment of desire has any real sense of control over a being as a puppetmaster or whatever, but that the feeling of desire can overtake a being's better judgement. As Theozilla succintly says, they are patterns within the universe itself, not beings that control the universe.

On the monitor question, I just don't know. To be frank, I haven't really thought about the issue that much, but my initial impression is that the Monitors have always seem to fulfill a role that makes them separate from the universe in order to observe and study it. I have a busy weekend ahead, but I'll think about it some more and get back to you.

And I liked Final Crisis, although I did have problems with the pacing.