Avengers vs. New Ultimates #6 preview!

[Drz]

The big finale! (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=9196)

Art is looking great as usual, i love Hitch's variant cover but how did the editorial not notice the colorist made Black Widow wrong? Thats not Monica Chang at all! :(

Gregory's technology is so beyond this universe, he has to be somehow connected to either Kang or he truly is "the biggest genius" out there, but still it's great we're actually getting Gregory vs. Tony Stark family feud!

[darthblinx]

UGH!

Fuck those goddamn "Hulk-Out" heroes

[Joseph C.]

Good preview. I just hope Steve wales on the Spider for wearing Peter's costume and mentions how he could be dead and he's parading around like he's Spider-Man. If I was Steve I could rip him apart piece by piece for doin that.

[wyokid]

This is AWESOME! I hope Greg's "to be continued" is true!


This looks so cool and I can not wait to get it!

FIXED! :biggrin:


Good preview. I just hope Steve wales on the Spider for wearing Peter's costume and mentions how he could be dead and he's parading around like he's Spider-Man. If I was Steve I could rip him apart piece by piece for doin that.

I feel like that's what the whole point of the character was

[Balfro]

Just so we're all clear; That's not Peters' costume. It's a replica that isn't even the correct color scheme. :biggrin: He's literally the Dollar Store version of Spider-Man:

- He's Korean
- He's Orange and Purple
- He's called "The Spider"

I'm surprised his joints can articulate.

[wyokid]

Just so we're all clear; That's not Peters' costume. It's a replica that isn't even the correct color scheme. :biggrin: He's literally the Dollar Store version of Spider-Man:

- He's Korean
- He's Orange and Purple
- He's called "The Spider"

I'm surprised his joints can articulate.

It's the thought that counts though :tongue:

[Balfro]

There we are:


http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/6942/spiderb.jpg

[Plawsky]

Lies. Dollar stores never had that Spidey figure. But they DID have a Batman action figure:

http://www.fortheretarded.com/images/flea/DSC00773.JPG

[striderhirryu2]

This reminds me of the time Wolverine called Sabretooth the Hong Kong version of himself

[Wolverine12]

Anybody else notice that both Rhodey and Blade have the exact same face but with different expressions?

Also Hulked out hero's is so freaking campy that I'm pretty sure I saw a tent and camp fire in there. :biggrin:

[wyokid]

not seeing either of those...

[Plawsky]

Anybody else notice that both Rhodey and Blade have the exact same face but with different expressions?


What, so all black people look alike? :biggrin:

In Yu's defense, there's really only so much he can do with two hulked-out black guys. Hawkeye has the same face as well.



Also Hulked out hero's is so freaking campy that I'm pretty sure I saw a tent and camp fire in there. :biggrin:

In the time between their appearances in AvNU #5, the Hulk-vengers made s'mores. True story.

[wyokid]

What, so all black people look alike? :biggrin:

In Yu's defense, there's really only so much he can do with two hulked-out black guys. Hawkeye has the same face as well.



In the time between their appearances in AvNU #5, the Hulk-vengers made s'mores. True story.

still not seeing it.

[Vidocq]

Looks awesome. Just hope that Gregiry Stark survives this.


This reminds me of the time Wolverine called Sabretooth the Hong Kong version of himself

Really? It reminds me to a couple of birthday parties.

[wyokid]

This reminds me of the time Wolverine called Sabretooth the Hong Kong version of himself

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

[CutthroatCrook]

Still haven't got my issue of number 5 yet :frown:

[horsehead]

I hate this hulked out heroes thing, I think it is really stupid. If they could do this they would do it all the time but I bet it is going to be conveniently forgotten. They should make every single hero a hulked out giant man

I think Millar's run on Avengers has been utter tripe. I can't believe this is the same guy who wrote Ultimates and UXM. I much preferred Loeb's New Ultimates to these

[Drz]

I think Millar's run on Avengers has been utter tripe. I can't believe this is the same guy who wrote Ultimates and UXM. I much preferred Loeb's New Ultimates to these

Millar promised the Ultimate Avengers as the biggest action stories out there, he wasn't promising Ultimates or anything, but big big action styled movies, he has kept his promise. Just thought i'd mention this, since thats what he said the series would be about, and if you ask me he's kept his word. Oh and also more villain focused, which has been pretty neat, sure i'd get some nostalgia out of Dracula instead of Vampire Hulk, but i liked what i read.

[HolySock]

I hate this hulked out heroes thing, I think it is really stupid. If they could do this they would do it all the time but I bet it is going to be conveniently forgotten. They should make every single hero a hulked out giant man

Did you even pay attention to the last issue? Only Tyrone Cash had the pills. And the Avengers only took enough for this last battle. Plus, Cash is dead and I'm pretty sure they won't be able to recreate the formula. Similar to how they couldn't recreate the super soldier serum.

[zenbullet]

I hate this hulked out heroes thing, I think it is really stupid. If they could do this they would do it all the time but I bet it is going to be conveniently forgotten. They should make every single hero a hulked out giant man


That is a story that can't tell in the 616 with a straight face. Everything is godzilla battles! All the time!

YOU get a hulk pill! AND YOU get a hulk pill! EVERYBODY gets hulk pills!

[wyokid]

That is a story that can't tell in the 616 with a straight face. Everything is godzilla battles! All the time!

YOU get a hulk pill! AND YOU get a hulk pill! EVERYBODY gets hulk pills!

Do I get a Hulk pill?

[Samorai_black]

So far this is what I expected story wise so I cant really say im impressed. I hope the rest of the issue is better though in terms of less action and more dialogue. Art looks just as good as its been though.


Anybody else notice that both Rhodey and Blade have the exact same face but with different expressions?

That was the first thing I noticed becuase I looked at these characters first but when I looked at Punisher I noticed his face was the same he just has his mouth open. Im pretty sure Cap would look even more like Punisher if he didnt have most of his head covered as well. Anyways though you can still easily till who each character is.

[Kiekan]

- He's Orange and Purple

Are you sure that isn't just because of the lighting? The colors on everyone else's costumes are muted or skewed a bit because of an overall desert-y redish tone, too.

[Balfro]

Are you sure that isn't just because of the lighting? The colors on everyone else's costumes are muted or skewed a bit because of an overall desert-y redish tone, too.

The Spider has always been orange and purple. It's an homage to Stan Lee because back when Amazing Fantasy #15 came out he inteded Spider-Man to be orange and purple but the colorist mistakingly made him red and blue. Stan loved the mistake and Spider-Man was red and blue since.

I think Millar stated this in an interview 2 years ago or so...

[Skaddix]

Gregory for godsakes finish the job.

[Scott M Davis]

next week is gonna be sweet, Ultimate Fallout and this! I would guess that AvsNU goes first then UF?

[the dot and the line]

Good preview, seems like a lot of people are making a huge deal over nothing with these hulk pills.

[Kiekan]

The Spider has always been orange and purple. It's an homage to Stan Lee because back when Amazing Fantasy #15 came out he inteded Spider-Man to be orange and purple but the colorist mistakingly made him red and blue. Stan loved the mistake and Spider-Man was red and blue since.

I think Millar stated this in an interview 2 years ago or so...

Ah, my mistake. Any chance that you'd have a link to that? Not that I don't believe you, just curious to read a bit more.

[Balfro]

Ah, my mistake. Any chance that you'd have a link to that? Not that I don't believe you, just curious to read a bit more.

I can see if I can dig it up.

EDIT:

Ok it's not the interview, but a list of little-known facts and it's in there. #6. Apparently it wasn't Stan Lee, but Ditko that wanted those colors originally. Go figure...

http://theinformativereport.com/2010/04/29/53-super-powered-facts-about-your-favourite-super-heroes/

[TonyStark1012]

Really cannot wait to get this. This book has been great from the start. I've been wanting to see Tony kick Gregory's ass since he first appeared and I really hope I get to see it.

[Captain France]

I think it will be an epic ending like in the end of Ultimates 2.
A Must Have for me!

[Ronin1108]

stark just left NICK FURY on the HELICARRIER?? Hope you at least had a cup of coffee while in charge of shield you idiot.

[Drz]

stark just left NICK FURY on the HELICARRIER?? Hope you at least had a cup of coffee while in charge of shield you idiot.

Because killing a Hulk is so easy! =)

[Ronin1108]

Because killing a Hulk is so easy! =)

its not even that, he did nothing to restrain him, capture him...anything!! this is nick fudgin' fury!!! you dont just leave that kinda thread dangling

[Vidocq]

stark just left NICK FURY on the HELICARRIER?? Hope you at least had a cup of coffee while in charge of shield you idiot.

Besides the gig is up. The Ultimates know what's he's up to. Taking the time to kill a Hulk-out Fury will accomplish nothing at this point. His only hope is to somehow kill The Ultimates and The Avengers. Then it will be his word against the still disgraced Fury.

[Scott M Davis]

Doesn't the War Machine armour have a tactical nuke inside of it?

Could Gregory possible take control of it and try to blow them all up?

[Sinx]

Looks alright. I don't think the ending will be very satisfying, honestly.

[Balfro]

Besides the gig is up. The Ultimates know what's he's up to. Taking the time to kill a Hulk-out Fury will accomplish nothing at this point. His only hope is to somehow kill The Ultimates and The Avengers. Then it will be his word against the still disgraced Fury.

Good call!



Doesn't the War Machine armour have a tactical nuke inside of it?

Could Gregory possible take control of it and try to blow them all up?

Good call!



Looks alright. I don't think the ending will be very satisfying, honestly.

Good call!

[Scott M Davis]

Balfro is stuck in repeat mode..

BTW, I went back and re-read Next Generation trade, Gregory says his weapons won't exist for another 20 yrs.. I hope we get his backstory in issue 6, same with The Spiders, who I think might have been the original Spider-Man test subject

[Definite21]

Balfro is stuck in repeat mode..

BTW, I went back and re-read Next Generation trade, Gregory says his weapons won't exist for another 20 yrs.. I hope we get his backstory in issue 6, same with The Spiders, who I think might have been the original Spider-Man test subject

i like it!

[Agemoi]

aw man..

I havent been too thrilled with the series, its far too decompressed. BUT this preview actually gave me a little more hope that the finale will AT LEAST be badass.

I definitely went "UGH" at the hulk-outiness, but it looks like this issue can make up for it.

Pure Shibby. :biggrin:

[Drz]

its not even that, he did nothing to restrain him, capture him...anything!! this is nick fudgin' fury!!! you dont just leave that kinda thread dangling

And what does that help? Nick Fury is a war criminal right now that noone believes in, it's best he goes and kills the Ultimates that the public loves and trusts. Also how do you contain something like a Hulk?


Doesn't the War Machine armour have a tactical nuke inside of it?

Could Gregory possible take control of it and try to blow them all up?

That worked on Bruce Banner in Ultimates 2.

[striderhirryu2]

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

When Sabretooth was showing off his Adamantium claws in Return to Weapon X. Think the line was something like, "Yeah like this will make people stop thinking you're the Hong Kong Version of me."

[Ronin1108]

And what does that help? Nick Fury is a war criminal right now that noone believes in, it's best he goes and kills the Ultimates that the public loves and trusts. Also how do you contain something like a Hulk?


So you'd think it okay to leave a hulked out "terrorist" in the middle of your HOME BASE, when you had him in your cross hairs, unattended? I'd call that the a classic villain lapse in judgement, cuz that WILL come back to bite gregory in his ass

[Skaddix]

So you'd think it okay to leave a hulked out "terrorist" in the middle of your HOME BASE, when you had him in your cross hairs, unattended? I'd call that the a classic villain lapse in judgement, cuz that WILL come back to bite gregory in his ass

Well a normal terrorist fine but a guy like Nick Fury u can at least move him to a wasteland first.

[charlesthehammer]

Besides the gig is up. The Ultimates know what's he's up to. Taking the time to kill a Hulk-out Fury will accomplish nothing at this point. His only hope is to somehow kill The Ultimates and The Avengers. Then it will be his word against the still disgraced Fury.

What if he survives or even wins? I know he is the villian and they dont win much, but dear god plan ahead a little and stop being so negative.

[Skaddix]

What if he survives or even wins? I know he is the villian and they dont win much, but dear god plan ahead a little and stop being so negative.

He might live but seeing as at least Thor, Cap and Stark make it out. And Fury is back in charge we know he loses already.

[wyokid]

When Sabretooth was showing off his Adamantium claws in Return to Weapon X. Think the line was something like, "Yeah like this will make people stop thinking you're the Hong Kong Version of me."

ooo, I remember that. Now the question is how does it remind you of it?

[charlesthehammer]

He might live but seeing as at least Thor, Cap and Stark make it out. And Fury is back in charge we know he loses already.

He doesnt, thats my point. I want my characters to act as logically as possible.

[striderhirryu2]

ooo, I remember that. Now the question is how does it remind you of it?

All the Hong Kong versions of Spider-Man posted above me and the fact that Cap is calling him out for being a lab rat grade knockoff

[Milkshake Dave]

This is pretty bad. How did the Hulked out Heroes manage to fall off a ship but travel all the way from New York to North Korea instantaneously?

[Captain France]

This is pretty bad. How did the Hulked out Heroes manage to fall off a ship but travel all the way from New York to North Korea instantaneously?

You know, when you turn a page, it's not always only one second that has passed in the story.

[Milkshake Dave]

You know, when you turn a page, it's not always only one second that has passed in the story.
So explain it to me then. They fall off the ship, travel to another timezone, meanwhile Nick Fury is still on said ship with Gregory Stark.

[Captain France]

So explain it to me then. They fall off the ship, travel to another timezone, meanwhile Nick Fury is still on said ship with Gregory Stark.

Ok...

The Avengers falls from the Helicarrier.
During this time, the Ultimates talks about the situation in North Korea.
They decide to attack and contact the Avengers to assemble with them.
Minutes later, when the Spider and the chinese super-soldiers think they have win the North Korea, the Ultimates and the Avengers appear, thanx to Thor's teleport ability.

[Drz]

So you'd think it okay to leave a hulked out "terrorist" in the middle of your HOME BASE, when you had him in your cross hairs, unattended? I'd call that the a classic villain lapse in judgement, cuz that WILL come back to bite gregory in his ass

And again tell me how he could have contained a Hulk and would the time invested on that prove more helpful then killing off the Ultimates who are trying to stop his masterplan alltogether? Nick Fury can't get anything from Hellcarrier that would stop these supervillains or anything.
This is pretty bad. How did the Hulked out Heroes manage to fall off a ship but travel all the way from New York to North Korea instantaneously?

They met up with Thor and they teleported together.

[Ronin1108]

And again tell me how he could have contained a Hulk and would the time invested on that prove more helpful then killing off the Ultimates who are trying to stop his masterplan alltogether? Nick Fury can't get anything from Hellcarrier that would stop these supervillains or anything.


iT'S already been suggested to at least drop him off in some kinda wasteland. just not on a helicarrier that can be hijacked and used to kill the korean giant men, further putting this whole thing on gregory's doorstep. Also, the armory itself has enough armaments that can be useful in taking down villains.

[Drz]

Nick Fury can't take the Hellcarrier to Korea since that would cause further international conflict.

[Ronin1108]

Nick Fury can't take the Hellcarrier to Korea since that would cause further international conflict.

wouldn't be his problem, it'd be greg's for not finishing the job

[Drz]

It would become his problem because he's becoming the general of SHIELD. The government is burning after this chaos and Nick Fury needs to fix this mess, you don't go and making it a bigger one.

[Ronin1108]

It would become his problem because he's becoming the general of SHIELD. The government is burning after this chaos and Nick Fury needs to fix this mess, you don't go and making it a bigger one.

you gotta show they picked the wrong guy first, than turn around and tell 'em "Hey, we not only kept spiderman alive when i was around, but we also didnt invade countries and start revolutions"

[Drz]

So you're saying Nick Fury should reveal the whole world that this was all America's fault, instead of killing the bad guys and keeping things a secret and not cause international conflict and make America look more vulnurable and so forth.

Okay.

[Ronin1108]

its not americas fault, its gregory stark's, you can twist it anyway you want that's of no concern to me

[ASR]

Do I get a Hulk pill?

No, not you

[Drz]

its not americas fault, its gregory stark's, you can twist it anyway you want that's of no concern to me

Are you really saying if a situation like this would happen whenever a fictional or a real world, that America wouldn't get blamed? Millar's Ultimate work is always very political, it should be a concern to you since you read it.

[Captain France]

Are you really saying if a situation like this would happen whenever a fictional or a real world, that America wouldn't get blamed? Millar's Ultimate work is always very political, it should be a concern to you since you read it.

this ^^^^

It would be insane to start a World War 3, engaging american forces without green light of the North Korea.

[Milkshake Dave]

Ok...

The Avengers falls from the Helicarrier.
During this time, the Ultimates talks about the situation in North Korea.
They decide to attack and contact the Avengers to assemble with them.
Minutes later, when the Spider and the chinese super-soldiers think they have win the North Korea, the Ultimates and the Avengers appear, thanx to Thor's teleport ability.
This explanation doesn't at all work. None of this is actually portrayed in the books. "We don't know what to do, so..... let's just ask those guys we arrested earlier. Oh wait, where are they?"

They fall from the Helicarrier and magically resurface seconds later with the Ultimates in North Korea.

Did they seek out Thor (and they just happened to know EXACTLY where he'd be? or did they call the police and demand the authorities find Thor to make them listen to the Avengers' story of Greg's deception)? Did they magically happen to be in North Korea too?


They met up with Thor and they teleported together.
Proof? Pics?

Then why did they decide to leave Nick Fury by himself against Gregory Stark?

As is always the case when trying to cover Millar's errors, these explanations are terrible.

[wyokid]

This explanation doesn't at all work. None of this is actually portrayed in the books. "We don't know what to do, so let's ask those guys we arrested earlier. Oh wait, where are they?"

They fall from the Helicarrier and magically resurface seconds later with the Ultimates in North Korea.

Did they seek out Thor? Did they magically happen to be in North Korea too?

You don't know.

You do know this is a comic book right?

[Drz]

Are you kidding me? The Ultimates are unwilling (outside Thor) to get into Korea, then they appear in Korea and Captain America spills the bean, then Spidey asks how did they know and the Avengers tell they did.

You're trying to argue that the Hulked out Avengers explained the situation in a milisecond to Captain America before he speaks to the Spider.

Use your common sense!

[Milkshake Dave]

You do know this is a comic book right?
Good comics tend to be cohesive.

[Milkshake Dave]

Are you kidding me? The Ultimates are unwilling (outside Thor) to get into Korea, then they appear in Korea and Captain America spills the bean, then Spidey asks how did they know and the Avengers tell they did.

You're trying to argue that the Hulked out Avengers explained the situation in a milisecond to Captain America before he speaks to the Spider.

Use your common sense!
Soooo how much time realistically has passed, then?

The Avengers fall off a helicarrier, reappear in North Korea, with Nick Fury still battling Gregory Stark on said helicarrier.

[Drz]

Soooo how much time realistically has passed, then?

The Avengers fall off a helicarrier, reappear in North Korea, with Nick Fury still battling Gregory Stark on said helicarrier.

You're suppose to be aware now that the Avengers meet before Thor transports them all to Korea. :) So from falling down to Hellcarrier to meeting in the same city, it doesn't take long from Hulks to leap.

[spiderfreak1011]

You know seeing all the posts and talk about the DOSM UAvNU Series and comparing to The USM version of DOSM makes me realize how much more complicated that the Ultimates series is.

[HolySock]

You know seeing all the posts and talk about the DOSM UAvNU Series and comparing to The USM version of DOSM makes me realize how much more complicated that the Ultimates series is.

Compared to 616, Ultimate is pretty straightforward.

[Chaos_Alfa]

Compared to 616, Ultimate is pretty straightforward.

That's to easy to say. 616 has many more story to compare with than Ultimate.

[HolySock]

That's to easy to say. 616 has many more story to compare with than Ultimate.

Read the post wrong. I think he was on about the "Utimates" rather than the UU...so yeah, that is pretty complicated...

[Tracks]

This explanation doesn't at all work. None of this is actually portrayed in the books. "We don't know what to do, so..... let's just ask those guys we arrested earlier. Oh wait, where are they?"

They fall from the Helicarrier and magically resurface seconds later with the Ultimates in North Korea.

Did they seek out Thor (and they just happened to know EXACTLY where he'd be? or did they call the police and demand the authorities find Thor to make them listen to the Avengers' story of Greg's deception)? Did they magically happen to be in North Korea too?


Proof? Pics?

Then why did they decide to leave Nick Fury by himself against Gregory Stark?

As is always the case when trying to cover Millar's errors, these explanations are terrible.

Hawkeye has been a log-time ultimate, it wouldn't be far-fetched to assume he could easily establish communication with his team members

[Sparrowsabre7]

Wow, Yu REALLY hates drawin Greg's clothes. That kind of single colour silhouette works on dark scenes wih dark clothing but not on white Mr. Yu.

[Sparrowsabre7]

This explanation doesn't at all work. None of this is actually portrayed in the books. "We don't know what to do, so..... let's just ask those guys we arrested earlier. Oh wait, where are they?"

They fall from the Helicarrier and magically resurface seconds later with the Ultimates in North Korea.

Did they seek out Thor (and they just happened to know EXACTLY where he'd be? or did they call the police and demand the authorities find Thor to make them listen to the Avengers' story of Greg's deception)? Did they magically happen to be in North Korea too?


Proof? Pics?

Then why did they decide to leave Nick Fury by himself against Gregory Stark?

As is always the case when trying to cover Millar's errors, these explanations are terrible.

I figure Fury stayed behind to keep Greg occupied. I mean, none of them WANTED to fall off in the first place, so once off they probably figured "we best go explain the sitch to the Ultimates"

[ASR]

Wow, Yu REALLY hates drawin Greg's clothes. That kind of single colour silhouette works on dark scenes wih dark clothing but not on white Mr. Yu.

I bet in 6 we find out its some super charged up power suit or something

[Balfro]

Wow, Yu REALLY hates drawin Greg's clothes. That kind of single colour silhouette works on dark scenes wih dark clothing but not on white Mr. Yu.

Wanna know what's even worse? It's supposed to be a black suit :eek:

No. I just made that up. I lied. I feel somewhat horrible.

[wyokid]

I think its funny how everyone think Yu does the coloring

[ASR]

I think its funny how everyone think Yu does the coloring

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA me too oh what a good joke

lol sorry I just had to

[wyokid]

Well am I reading the complaints wrong? Are you guys not complaining about the color?

[ASR]

Haha no you're right, I was just giving you a hard time. It's so noticeabke it obviously has to be a plot point. There is no reason the art can he so good oje the rest of the book and so awkward in one tiny aspect

[Plawsky]

I think its funny how everyone think Yu does the coloring

It's a fair assumption that Yu is the one who decides not to draw the interior of Gregory's suit. I don't think it's often that an inker just decides to ignore an artist's pencils, and even less that a colorist just removes the inks.

[ASR]

It's a fair assumption that Yu is the one who decides not to draw the interior of Gregory's suit. I don't think it's often that an inker just decides to ignore an artist's pencils, and even less that a colorist just removes the inks.

Does no one else think its actually part of the story and will be explained as some kind of Stark tech. Am I the only one who thinks this is glaringly obvious?

[the dot and the line]

Does no one else think its actually part of the story and will be explained as some kind of Stark tech. Am I the only one who thinks this is glaringly obvious?

I can dig it, homey.

[Scott M Davis]

It said right in the issue that his coat has super-powered defenses in it.. more reason to believe that he is Kang.

[Cloudman]

Does no one else think its actually part of the story and will be explained as some kind of Stark tech. Am I the only one who thinks this is glaringly obvious?

Yeah I figured that. Though in the past he's been drawn as a vague white blob, so I'm not too sure.

[horsehead]

Yeah I figured that. Though in the past he's been drawn as a vague white blob, so I'm not too sure.

I've also been drawn as a vague white blob

[Balfro]

Uh... aren't Tony's nanites flowing through his veins? Why do people assume that Gregory's are in his coat? A smart man like Gregory wouldn't deviate from the idea of having a weapon that you can't take off...

[Scott M Davis]

Think of the coat as his Iron Man Suit. I'm sure with out it he still has powers but they are better with said coat on.

[Balfro]

Think of the coat as his Iron Man Suit. I'm sure with out it he still has powers but they are better with said coat on.

What makes you say that though? He said loud and clear that he is using Nanites and they give him powers. He never mentioned anything about his coat nor have we seen any special feats performed by the coat itself. All we've seen regarding the coat is lazy artistry. That's it.

[Scott M Davis]

Just wait and see...

[kourtisy]

im pretty sure his suit is not drawn because its trying to show that hes mid teleport. If you look at the next panel you see just the while outline. Im pretty sure it was intentional on both the artists and colourists to have it look that way