Big Stupid UGLY APE!!!!

[Lynda_Carter]

AHHHH, I miss Gail's story's and her Big Ugly Apes! Do any of you miss them in the book?

[coveredinbees]

Not really. I miss Hippolyta.

[Lynda_Carter]

Not really. I miss Hippolyta.

I miss her alot too! I really loved her honor and courage in this new story. The love only a mother can give!

[DonC]

The apes were fun. Instead of reboots and giant events, they should make comics fun again.

[blackphoenix]

Instead of reboots and giant events, they should make comics fun again.
I wish. If only comics weren't all about big stakes "events" and crossovers!

[CarolStrick]

First and foremost, I miss Wonder Woman.

[Tiberious]

I just reread my Simone issues yesterday. Yes I miss the apes!!!

[bulldog_milt]

The apes are one of the few things that I don't miss from Gail's run...

[G.I.JOSE]

*sigh*....gail simone fans...

[Jared Song]

I don't miss the apes either.

[tangentman]

I wouldn't mind recurring visits with the apes. Adventures in Gorilla City or the like. As Don said, DC needs to bring the FUN back into comics in general, Wonder Woman in particular. I'd much rather see Wonder Woman hang out with talking gorillas than retreading the kind of angst that was already cliched back in 1994.

[BnL]

*sigh*....gail simone fans...

Care to elaborate?

[Flying Saucers Over Oz]

I think the one ape, Tollifighar or however that's spelled, would be sufficient. The others tended to come off as background singers.

Also miss Gail's Etta Candy.

We'll see what the new run brings.

[Tiberious]

sigh...Diana Prince.

I keep rereading the scene with Captain Nazi....I miss that.

[TripleX]

It should come as no surprise that I don't miss Gail at all. That said Tolifhar did get off a few good ones every now and then, and I was kinda sad when Rhanda died. Still they had nothing to do with Wonder Woman or mythology so they weren't a good fit. Gargantua made more sense and he was just a guy in a gorilla suit.




http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc148/trouble-man10/WWGARGANTUA2-1.jpg

[aegisbearer]

*sigh*....gail simone fans...

G.I.JOSE, let's just remember that people should respect those posters who were fans of ANY writer or artist. Fans of Gail are no different in their feelings than fans of Rucka, Perez, Marston, etc.

Targeting certain fans has the potential lead to comments that show contempt or disrespect.

If you would like to comment (respectfully) on what you don't like from Gail's run, feel free. Please comment away. Talking about fans doesn't usually end well, even if you're not the one who takes it there.

[coveredinbees]

Ha ha ha. You like Gail Simone!!

I want fun, but I'm afraid of gorillas and I never really liked talking animals. I could barely watch Scooby-Doo.
I miss the Amazons of Bana-Mighdall and Donna. I liked Artemis' arguments with Hippolyta. Hippolyta should be more regal and punch her in the mouth next time.

[AdamYJ]

I agree about the apes on principle.

More craziness, please. Not less.

[Lynda_Carter]

ha ha ha. You like gail simone!!

I want fun, but i'm afraid of gorillas and i never really liked talking animals. I could barely watch scooby-doo.
I miss the amazons of bana-mighdall and donna. I liked artemis' arguments with hippolyta. Hippolyta should be more regal and punch her in the mouth next time.

ha.ha! Got to love it!

[Eliseu Gouveia]

The apes were fun. Instead of reboots and giant events, they should make comics fun again.

Agreed!

Toliphar and his wacky crew were one of my favorite parts of Gail´s run, she brought the whimsical back!

(And her Hippolyta was awesome too, so awesome I wouldn´t mind seeing her get her own book.)

[jamie23m]

I miss the art :-/

[Tiberious]

Terry Dodson is by far one of my favorite WW artists.

[jason_w]

I don't miss Gail's stories, but I do miss her enthusiasm for WW. It's showed in the book, but it just didn't gel as well as her Birds of Prey run.

I've never understood people's fascination talking apes and I've never enjoyed anything with them in it. Even going all the way back to the '70s when Planet of the Apes was popular I couldn't get into them. Not to mention that I couldn't help but think how bad Diana's apartment must have smelled!

The only two things I miss most from the previous run is the artwork by the Dodsons, and Nicola. Best WW artwork since Perez.

[AdamYJ]

I don't miss Gail's stories, but I do miss her enthusiasm for WW. It's showed in the book, but it just didn't gel as well as her Birds of Prey run.

To be honest, I think her All New Atom was her best stuff. But that's me.


I've never understood people's fascination talking apes and I've never enjoyed anything with them in it. Even going all the way back to the '70s when Planet of the Apes was popular I couldn't get into them. Not to mention that I couldn't help but think how bad Diana's apartment must have smelled!

The only two things I miss most from the previous run is the artwork by the Dodsons, and Nicola. Best WW artwork since Perez.

They're a Silver Age DC standard. In the '60s, sales went up every time DC put a gorilla on a comic book cover.

[jason_w]

They're a Silver Age DC standard. In the '60s, sales went up every time DC put a gorilla on a comic book cover.

I'm aware of that. :smile:

I still don't see what people get out of talking apes. Apparently they're endearing in some way that I'm totally not getting.

I'm clearly in the minority on this, but whatever makes people happy.

[AdamYJ]

I'm aware of that. :smile:

I still don't see what people get out of talking apes. Apparently they're endearing in some way that I'm totally not getting.

I'm clearly in the minority on this, but whatever makes people happy.

Well, personally, gorillas are my favorite animal.

Also, talking gorillas are just a rather silly concept. And I am naturally drawn to silliness.

[Flying Saucers Over Oz]

Actually, I was afraid of gorillas when I was very young. I thought they were hiding in the woods behind my house plotting to 'get' me. Near as I can figure, it was a combination of the original PLANET OF THE APES and an overheard mention of guerilla warfare...

I'm forced to agree Gail's run didn't quite live up to its potential, but given what she'd been left to work with and what she had to deal with, it's amazing it was as good as it was.

[DisneyBoy]

I liked the talking Apes to a point, and was very surprised to learn they were around for the duration of Simone's run. I think the point was made by the end of The Circle that Diana's influence could redeem almost anyone. Why did they stick around after they made things up to her by fighting the Nazis on Themyscira?

I do agree that I miss Simone's Etta/Diana relationship more. It seemed like that would become a staple in the book from that point on, like Batman and Alfred.

And to those who aren't into talking animals or their appeal, know that I am among you.

EDIT:

Saucers, can you give me the short version of some of the obstacles Gail was up against during her run? I only knew that the Rucka characters were off-limits and that she had to keep Diana Prince and Nemesis around. Did DC force her to do things later in her run that I'm unaware of?

[Lynda_Carter]

I liked the talking Apes to a point, and was very surprised to learn they were around for the duration of Simone's run. I think the point was made by the end of The Circle that Diana's influence could redeem almost anyone. Why did they stick around after they made things up to her by fighting the Nazis on Themyscira?

I do agree that I miss Simone's Etta/Diana relationship more. It seemed like that would become a staple in the book from that point on, like Batman and Alfred.

And to those who aren't into talking animals or their appeal, know that I am among you.

EDIT:

Saucers, can you give me the short version of some of the obstacles Gail was up against during her run? I only knew that the Rucka characters were off-limits and that she had to keep Diana Prince and Nemesis around. Did DC force her to do things later in her run that I'm unaware of?

The BIG one was AMAZONS ATTACK!

[TripleX]

Actually, I was afraid of gorillas when I was very young. I thought they were hiding in the woods behind my house plotting to 'get' me. Near as I can figure, it was a combination of the original PLANET OF THE APES and an overheard mention of guerilla warfare...

I'm forced to agree Gail's run didn't quite live up to its potential, but given what she'd been left to work with and what she had to deal with, it's amazing it was as good as it was.

Yo I thought "guerilla warfare" was gorilla warfare too when I was little. lol I also thought "making ends meet" was the meat you had when all your other meat had run out, like Spam or vienna sausages or something. lol

[bulldog_milt]

Saucers, can you give me the short version of some of the obstacles Gail was up against during her run? I only knew that the Rucka characters were off-limits and that she had to keep Diana Prince and Nemesis around. Did DC force her to do things later in her run that I'm unaware of?

I believe that she was also told to break up the Rise of the Olympian story and insert the two-three issue arcs into it. They felt the story would be too long... Another was that Genocide was supposed to be the New God Knockout, but they wouldn't let her do that because of the ban on the New Gods, but only after she'd already begun using Genocide. That meant she had to explain Genocide in a way that worked with what she'd already written.

[bulldog_milt]

As to the not using the Rucka Gods. It was established in Amazon Attacks that the gods were back to being the ones from the Perez days, so I don't think that was even an option. I do know she wanted to use Veronica Cale, but I think she was told no by Rucka. She is normally really good about getting the input from the creators of the characters before she uses them...

[Eliseu Gouveia]

"Don´t do this", "don´t do that".... being a WWW writer must suck beyond words, so many constraints and edicts and editorial mandates...

[bulldog_milt]

"Don´t do this", "don´t do that".... being a WWW writer must suck beyond words, so many constraints and edicts and editorial mandates...

From what we've heard though as of September that is gone... I'll believe it when I see it :)

[DisneyBoy]

I think the crossovers alone have been a huge problem for the book. Imagine where things would have been by now if not for Our Worlds at War, The Omac Project and One Year Later...


Another was that Genocide was supposed to be the New God Knockout, but they wouldn't let her do that because of the ban on the New Gods, but only after she'd already begun using Genocide. That meant she had to explain Genocide in a way that worked with what she'd already written.

Whaaaa....? Who is this Knockout? I never knew that. I always thought Gail had intended the character to be Zombie Diana from the future. Why would Knockout have potentially been preferable for a big reveal?


As to the not using the Rucka Gods. It was established in Amazon Attacks that the gods were back to being the ones from the Perez days, so I don't think that was even an option.

Okay, I wisely skipped Amazons Attack, so I didn't know of this. Was there an explanation given for why the Gods suddenly had on their old Perez duds again?


I do know she wanted to use Veronica Cale, but I think she was told no by Rucka.

I'm sure Rucka had some interesting things in mind for Cale. Still, I think Gail would have written her well.

[TripleX]

Whaaaa....? Who is this Knockout? I never knew that. I always thought Gail had intended the character to be Zombie Diana from the future. Why would Knockout have potentially been preferable for a big reveal?

Knockout was the former Female Fury of Apokalips and Superboy villain that Gail had recently written as being Scandal Savage's lover in Secret Six. She was killed just prior to "Death of the New Gods" in Birds Of Prey.

Most of us had already guessed that Genocide was Knockout reincarnated because of the green costume, spikes and red hair (or possibly Devastation who's also a redhead). Either would have been a much more satisfying and far less convoluted story than what we eventually got. Frankly Genocide being a corpse of Diana from an alternate future didn't make a whole lot of sense and helped to ruin what could have been a great arc.


http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc148/trouble-man10/KNOCKOUTGENOCIDE2.jpg http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc148/trouble-man10/KNOCKOUTGENOCIDE.jpg

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc148/trouble-man10/knockout_480x480.jpghttp://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc148/trouble-man10/Knockout_DC.jpg

[DisneyBoy]

Wwwwoooooooowww!


I had no idea that's what was originally planned. Thanks for posting those pics, too, because I remember seeing her back in the 90s ads for the Superboy and the Outsiders book, I think it was. I just thought she was some random no-name heroine. Never knew she was a New Gods character, much less a villainess. Wonder what Gail's rationale was for having her attack Diana in her book in such a massive way? Did they share any history prior to Genocide's appearance?

I'm also forced to beg the question "Why not Deva?" if the original plan had to be scraped. My only guess would be that Gail had spoken with Eric Luke and he'd preferred her not to use his character.

:) I love learning behind-the-scenes stuff like this. Never would have guessed this storyline had so many twists behind-the-scenes (but then, I wasn't really following it online here with the rest of you). Do we know at what point Gail learned she had to change gears and reacted accordingly?

[bulldog_milt]

Wwwwoooooooowww!


I had no idea that's what was originally planned. Thanks for posting those pics, too, because I remember seeing her back in the 90s ads for the Superboy and the Outsiders book, I think it was. I just thought she was some random no-name heroine. Never knew she was a New Gods character, much less a villainess. Wonder what Gail's rationale was for having her attack Diana in her book in such a massive way? Did they share any history prior to Genocide's appearance?

I'm also forced to beg the question "Why not Deva?" if the original plan had to be scraped. My only guess would be that Gail had spoken with Eric Luke and he'd preferred her not to use his character.

:) I love learning behind-the-scenes stuff like this. Never would have guessed this storyline had so many twists behind-the-scenes (but then, I wasn't really following it online here with the rest of you). Do we know at what point Gail learned she had to change gears and reacted accordingly?

Considering she is still on good terms with DC I doubt she'd ever comment on the problems more than to say they existed.

As to why Knockout works for Gail is that she wrote Secret Six and Knockout was the girlfriend of Savage. I also believe that Gail wrote the death scene for her, so to write her resurrection would have been full circle; which you see with Gail alot. She'll start a story - for instance Black Alice. Then she'll bring that character into other books she's working on. It was why Wonder Woman appeared in Secret Six for a couple issues...

[Gail Simone]

Considering she is still on good terms with DC I doubt she'd ever comment on the problems more than to say they existed.

As to why Knockout works for Gail is that she wrote Secret Six and Knockout was the girlfriend of Savage. I also believe that Gail wrote the death scene for her, so to write her resurrection would have been full circle; which you see with Gail alot. She'll start a story - for instance Black Alice. Then she'll bring that character into other books she's working on. It was why Wonder Woman appeared in Secret Six for a couple issues...

Hi, guys.

I do indeed like to bring characters back around, even in other books.

But I did not write the Knockout death scene. I believe Tony Bedard did, and he was pretty unhappy about it at the time. It was really unpleasant.

She WAS going to be Genocide, but after the first issue was already written, we got notes from editorial that we could NOT bring Knockout back because all the New Gods were dead because of Grant's reboot. I made the point that Knockout was not a New God, but a Female Fury and was shut down cold.

That story had quite a bit of editorial WTF moments. There's a lot in that book I still really like, but we definitely had to deal with a lot of odd, odd stuff being inflicted for reasons I don't really get to this day.

[tangentman]

Hi, guys.


Wow! Hello, Gail!




I do indeed like to bring characters back around, even in other books.


As you did with Ice in Birds of Prey and gave Dove II one of the starring roles in the relaunch. You even brought back Etta Candy and the Kapatellises, not to mention three obscure heroes from DC's "Sword & Sorcery" line! I'd call that a commitment to bringing back characters!



She WAS going to be Genocide, but after the first issue was already written, we got notes from editorial that we could NOT bring Knockout back because all the New Gods were dead because of Grant's reboot. I made the point that Knockout was not a New God, but a Female Fury and was shut down cold.


UGH. Stories like this contribute largely to the overall rancor many Wonder Woman fans feel toward DC editorial. You had an original way of resurrecting a dead character who wasn't even a true New God, and likely wouldn't even be the same character as Genocide! That editorial call was so counter-intuitive as to boggle and blow the mind!



That story had quite a bit of editorial WTF moments. There's a lot in that book I still really like, but we definitely had to deal with a lot of odd, odd stuff being inflicted for reasons I don't really get to this day.

Thank you for the insights! I never cared for the "WW's corpse from the future" explanation, but the "behind the scenes" insight certainly helps. While I still enjoyed the overall story, that left an unsightly wrinkle in the "cloth", so to speak.

STILL miss you as the writer, though, even more so in light of the past year's debacle with your successors!

[BnL]

Thank you for the insights! I never cared for the "WW's corpse from the future" explanation, but the "behind the scenes" insight certainly helps. While I still enjoyed the overall story, that left an unsightly wrinkle in the "cloth", so to speak.

"Rise of the Olympian" may not be my favorite story for various reasons, but I still love what Genocide says after Wonder Woman punches her mask off.

"Heh. You see my face. My true face. It is also your face. Do you like what you see, at the end of your life?"

Not only a chilling line in and of itself, but a very clever bit of foreshadowing.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I do indeed like to bring characters back around, even in other books.

Any plans to bring Ryan Choi back?:wink:

[TripleX]

Hi, guys.

I do indeed like to bring characters back around, even in other books.

But I did not write the Knockout death scene. I believe Tony Bedard did, and he was pretty unhappy about it at the time. It was really unpleasant.

She WAS going to be Genocide, but after the first issue was already written, we got notes from editorial that we could NOT bring Knockout back because all the New Gods were dead because of Grant's reboot. I made the point that Knockout was not a New God, but a Female Fury and was shut down cold.

That story had quite a bit of editorial WTF moments. There's a lot in that book I still really like, but we definitely had to deal with a lot of odd, odd stuff being inflicted for reasons I don't really get to this day.

Why not use Devastation? The names Genocide and Devastation kind of go together and we all would have loved it if you brought her back. It would have upped Genocide's street cred too, Devastation was created to be Diana's evil counterpart and equal in power.

[Fused]

While I loved having Gail on the book, it always bothered me that the story said that Wonder Woman would ultimately become Carrot Top.

http://www.tamparacing.com/forums/attachments/bike-tech/152620d1302728554-f-ck-people-orange-hair-carrottop-aftersteroids.jpg

I can buy that she could evolve into some sort of monster in some parallel future, but to become the eyesore that is Genocide was too much to stomach. Happy to know it she was originally designed for that Knockout character.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I like the idea of Genny being a twisted WW, but it´s the execution that felt a bit flawed, starting with the character design which, to put it gently, wasn´t my cup of tea.

[jelebino]

Well, I was close.

I thought he/she/it was going to be Orion.

It seems so long ago.

[TripleX]

Carrot Top worked out at my gym when he was in town for a gig. He was a funny and cool dude and he'd make a scary Joker in a Batman movie.

[vaffrey]

Hi, guys.

I do indeed like to bring characters back around, even in other books.

But I did not write the Knockout death scene. I believe Tony Bedard did, and he was pretty unhappy about it at the time. It was really unpleasant.

She WAS going to be Genocide, but after the first issue was already written, we got notes from editorial that we could NOT bring Knockout back because all the New Gods were dead because of Grant's reboot. I made the point that Knockout was not a New God, but a Female Fury and was shut down cold.

That story had quite a bit of editorial WTF moments. There's a lot in that book I still really like, but we definitely had to deal with a lot of odd, odd stuff being inflicted for reasons I don't really get to this day.

It felt from the beginning like we were being set up for a shocking revelation about the identity/origin of Genocide. Some fans on boards posted their theories that it would be Knockout, but that was an idea that always left me cold, because how shocking would that be for WW fans? I barely had any idea who Knockout was. Why would that matter to WW or anyone in her world? Besides, I thought the idea of soil from genocidal sites was origin enough -- a reversal of WW's origin that was compelling enough. As it was, Genocide ended up with a triple origin -- part of Ares' soul, WW's future corpse, and soil from genocidal sites.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Yeah, the soil from genocide sites part seemed simple and perfect enough.
I could accept the future WW but it doesn´t have the same symmetrical... elegance.

Edit:
Heck, it would give it even another angle for hating WW.
Maybe it´s not an actualy living being but more of a souless "clay golem" (the single line that is the bane of any true WW fan) that envies WW for being what it will never be.

[jelebino]

I thought the idea of soil from genocidal sites was origin enough

Yeah, that's the one.

The way to bring out Diana's mission against war is to set her off against the incidents of actual wars. Because they can make anyone feel they're up against impossible odds.

[DisneyBoy]

Well, anyway thank you Gail for popping by to clarify things. I, too, am curious as to whether or not Devastation was an option for you, but if you'd rather not say, I understand.

Don't be a stranger! And yes, I'm wishing you had gotten more time on the book as well :)

[Flying Saucers Over Oz]

I imagine the reason Devastation wasn't used was because:

1) It'd already been established, or at least decided by the storywriters that Genocide was a reanimated corpse. While we haven't seen Deva for awhile, she's presumably still alive.

2) Using Devastation as Genocide would have involved turning her into a completely different character and would have probably pissed off Deva fans.

3) Aside from the red hair, the two characters don't really look that much alike.

I actually prefer the 'Wonder Woman's reanimated corpse from the future' origin but I understand a lot of folks find it confusing.

The disturbing thing to me is that now poor Gail Simone knows she has a thread devoted to her... and it's entitled 'Big Stupid Ugly Ape.' I mean, she presumably KNOWS we're talking about the Gorilla Knights, but still...

[TripleX]

Devastation looks far more like Genocide than Diana does.

We never saw Diana die either, yet there she was as Genocide.

The main problem with most writers of Wonder Woman is they don't use old characters or plot points to get ideas for their stories. There's a wealth of material available that they never touch upon. Instead we get white gorillas or Green Lanterns or forgotten characters from outside Wonder Woman's mythos that no one cares about. I give Gail full credit for the Citizenry story where she attempted to update Asarta but she dropped the ball by not using Deva as Genocide. That could have been her Grant Morrison moment and truly EPIC.

[vaffrey]

It felt from the beginning like we were being set up for a shocking revelation about the identity/origin of Genocide. Some fans on boards posted their theories that it would be Knockout, but that was an idea that always left me cold, because how shocking would that be for WW fans? I barely had any idea who Knockout was. Why would that matter to WW or anyone in her world? Besides, I thought the idea of soil from genocidal sites was origin enough -- a reversal of WW's origin that was compelling enough. As it was, Genocide ended up with a triple origin -- part of Ares' soul, WW's future corpse, and soil from genocidal sites.

Ohhhhh, wait. Here I am thinking like a Wonderfan, about the WW book in isolation. If Knockout was so important to one of the characters in GS's villains book, then maybe the whole idea was to set up a Simoneverse event that was aborted. Knockout was the excuse to link up with her villains book, and the whole excursion to track down Genocide and secure Steel would have been the way to bring in not just Black Canary but also the whole Birds of Prey team.

So the revelation of Knockout wouldn't have meant much to me, but it would have been the way in to a big crossover event, with all the titles written by the same pen so that it would have been coordinated effectively.

OK, I'm a little slow on the uptake here. As you were.