The Exemplars

[tigerkaya]

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/exemplar1

With Fear Itself having various villains and two heroes possessed by ancient weaponry. I think it would be interesting for The Exemplars to make a return. Like Juggernaut each member was transformed by artifacts left on earth by beings similar to Cyttorak. Each member is Juggernaut level in power together they easily took down Juggernaut. Each member was designated by their deities to help build The God-Machine to take over the planet upon completion they would fight to the death for who would have complete rule of the earth. Their last appearance was in Busieks Avengers vol. 3 where after the members regain their memories of their former lives the flew off. Since then they haven't appeared since leaving this event perfect for their return be it the original host or new ones. The members were: Right to Left

Bedlam: powered by Ivory Idol of Ikonn
Decay: Verdant Vial of Valtorr
Tempest: Wondrous Waterfall of Watoomb
Stonecutter: Ringed Ruby of Raggadorr
Conquest: Kestrel Key of Krakkan
Carnivore: Fearsome Fist of Farallah
Inferno: Blinding Brazier of Balthakk

I could see them joining the battle trying to redeem themselves or the new ones facing off against Worthy Juggernaut alongside the soon to be new wielder of Cyttorak Colossus.

[Nomads1]

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/exemplar1

With Fear Itself having various villains and two heroes possessed by ancient weaponry. I think it would be interesting for The Exemplars to make a return. Like Juggernaut each member was transformed by artifacts left on earth by beings similar to Cyttorak. Each member is Juggernaut level in power together they easily took down Juggernaut. Each member was designated by their deities to help build The God-Machine to take over the planet upon completion they would fight to the death for who would have complete rule of the earth. Their last appearance was in Busieks Avengers vol. 3 where after the members regain their memories of their former lives the flew off. Since then they haven't appeared since leaving this event perfect for their return be it the original host or new ones. The members were:

Bedlam: powered by Ivory Idol of Ikonn
Carnivore: Fearsome Fist of Farallah
Conquest: Kestrel Key of Krakkan
Decay: Verdant Vial of Valtorr
Inferno: Blinding Brazier of Balthakk
Stonecutter: Ringed Ruby of Raggadorr
Tempest: Wondrous Waterfall of Watoomb

I could see them joining the battle trying to redeem themselves or the new ones facing off against Worthy Juggernaut alongside the soon to be new wielder of Cyttorak Colossus.

The Exemplars were awsome, and worthy enemies of Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Another exciting creation of Busiek's run. That being said, I don't see Marvel bringing them back anytime soon. Too old school storytelling. Better to have Marvel's new architects show how it's done right in a mega-event with dozens of tie-ins.
(Geez, there really should be a way to pass sarcasm in theses boards.)

Peace

[tigerkaya]

The Exemplars were awsome, and worthy enemies of Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Another exciting creation of Busiek's run. That being said, I don't see Marvel bringing them back anytime soon. Too old school storytelling. Better to have Marvel's new architects show how it's done right in a mega-event with dozens of tie-ins.
(Geez, there really should be a way to pass sarcasm in theses boards.)

Peace

There is, just type in large bold letters to get that Sarcasm effect. But besides that yes I know the architects have forgotten them being to oldschool but hey with some redesigns (hopefully not to horrendous) they would make a great comeback.

[Voulge]

Weren's the Examplers created in Thor pages it was crossover event with Thor and Spiderman named The Eight Day the first time they appeared.


Also the godmachine would devide the worl in 8 crowds fighting for there own Exampler.

They are indeed needed again for some nice stories.

[The Cool Thatguy]

The Exemplars were awsome, and worthy enemies of Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Another exciting creation of Busiek's run. That being said, I don't see Marvel bringing them back anytime soon. Too old school storytelling. Better to have Marvel's new architects show how it's done right in a mega-event with dozens of tie-ins.
(Geez, there really should be a way to pass sarcasm in theses boards.)

Peace

Seriously. Just how much brain storming went into Fear Itself?

"Hey, lets give a bunch of super toughs hammers!"

"Maybe we should mix it up some?"

"Sure, throw in Sin too!"

Wish it was the Exemplars doing the smashing. They have different powers and actual personalities!

[tigerkaya]

Weren's the Examplers created in Thor pages it was crossover event with Thor and Spiderman named The Eight Day the first time they appeared.


Also the godmachine would devide the worl in 8 crowds fighting for there own Exampler.

They are indeed needed again for some nice stories.

oh yeah there was crossover event I haven't read it yet. But thanks for the clear up on that Godmachine didn't know it would divide the world in 8.

Thanks.

[tigerkaya]

Seriously. Just how much brain storming went into Fear Itself?

"Hey, lets give a bunch of super toughs hammers!"

"Maybe we should mix it up some?"

"Sure, throw in Sin too!"

Wish it was the Exemplars doing the smashing. They have different powers and actual personalities!

What I liked about the Exemplars was that basically they were people who lacked the confidence to express themselves but as the Exemplars their were able to express those hidden emotions ten fold in their new form.

[Nomads1]

Weren's the Examplers created in Thor pages it was crossover event with Thor and Spiderman named The Eight Day the first time they appeared.


Also the godmachine would devide the worl in 8 crowds fighting for there own Exampler.

They are indeed needed again for some nice stories.

In a crossover involving Thor, Spider-man and Iron Man (written by Busiek), with guest star Prof X, setting them up for their apperance in the Avengers.
Don't recall who wrote the Eighth Day Special.


Peace

[Voulge]

What I liked about the Exemplars was that basically they were people who lacked the confidence to express themselves but as the Exemplars their were able to express those hidden emotions ten fold in their new form.
Thats also what i like about them.

And what others said unique powersets and all very strong (strength wise at least Spiderman powerlevel).
Although the Carrion type guy would be hard to write he is to deadly.

[marvell2100]

The Exemplars were a good group of villains. It is funny how very few of the old school Avengers villains make their way back. Sure we get the big names like Ultron and Kang, but what about the Elementals, Red Ronin, The Gatherers, the Lethal Legion, Graviton, Nefaria(not the one beat up by the New Avengers, lol), Chthon etc. I'm sure that they can come up with exciting ideas for these characters.

[tigerkaya]

Thats also what i like about them.

And what others said unique powersets and all very strong (strength wise at least Spiderman powerlevel).
Although the Carrion type guy would be hard to write he is to deadly.

I wouldn't say Decay would be hard to write to defeat just have the long range shooters take him down. Ms.Marvel, Photon, Spider-Woman, or Hawkeye take your pick. Though in terms of super powered I'd go with Ms.Marvel.

[tigerkaya]

The Exemplars were a good group of villains. It is funny how very few of the old school Avengers villains make their way back. Sure we get the big names like Ultron and Kang, but what about the Elementals, Red Ronin, The Gatherers, the Lethal Legion, Graviton, Nefaria(not the one beat up by the New Avengers, lol), Chthon etc. I'm sure that they can come up with exciting ideas for these characters.

Problem is Bendis relies to heavily on either borrowing villains from other heroes mainly Spider-man's or turning establish heroes into villains for the sake of drama. Now While I understand its hard to write the older villains I think all he needs to do is do more research on them to get a better grasp rather than have pet characters job the more powerful villains. As a matter of fact The Lethal Legion did appear in the Hawkeye mini.

[Nomads1]

The Exemplars were a good group of villains. It is funny how very few of the old school Avengers villains make their way back. Sure we get the big names like Ultron and Kang, but what about the Elementals, Red Ronin, The Gatherers, the Lethal Legion, Graviton, Nefaria(not the one beat up by the New Avengers, lol), Chthon etc. I'm sure that they can come up with exciting ideas for these characters.

IMHO, it's a crisis of immagination. There aren't many writers in Marvel's stable (or, at the very least, handling Avengers characters) capable of handing out the sheer wild fantasy that those villians solicit. Gage, Slott, Hickman and a few others come to mind. Everything has become too much about conspiracies, power plays, how low you are willing to go to defeat your opponent and other of those more "mature" themes, which, while I see nothing wrong with it, make for a very depressing universe when it's the main theme of all the stories.
Something else, despite all the recent additions (Thing, Rulk, Protector, Thor), in general, the Avengers still work too much as a street level team. The Heavy hitters don't pick up the slack as to let the less powerful hog the action, and as Vic Vega has been pointing out, the Avengers are becoming dangerously low in the Brick Department. Herc depowered, Simon gone bad, Vizh destroyed and replaced by a teenage version who doesn't seem as powerful, Gilgamesh God knows, Thor and Stark jobbing to make the new kwel characters look good. Sure, we still have some strong ones, such as Ms. Marvel, but they never seem to be well used. Against adversaries such as the ones you mentioned, the Avengers would need to be in top shape, and they are far from it.
On the plus side, they have brought back Red Ronin, or at least half of him, many times.:biggrin:
(sorry, bad joke)

Peace

[marvell2100]

IMHO, it's a crisis of immagination. There aren't many writers in Marvel's stable (or, at the very least, handling Avengers characters) capable of handing out the sheer wild fantasy that those villians solicit. Gage, Slott, Hickman and a few others come to mind. Everything has become too much about conspiracies, power plays, how low you are willing to go to defeat your opponent and other of those more "mature" themes, which, while I see nothing wrong with it, make for a very depressing universe when it's the main theme of all the stories.
On the plus side, they have brought back Red Ronin, or at least half of him, many times.:biggrin:
(sorry, bad joke)

Peace

I guess with Disassembled, Decimation, Civil War, Secret Invasion, Dark Reign and now fear Itself, we're getting the gloomy side of Marvel. I guess you're right it does get depressing wondering where the next will betrayal come from. While those types stories are okay from time to time, it's happening with too much frequency lately. Nobody inspires anyone anymore it seems. I don't want to dog on today's writers and there are some good things going on but they really need to change it up some.

[tigerkaya]

I guess with Disassembled, Decimation, Civil War, Secret Invasion, Dark Reign and now fear Itself, we're getting the gloomy side of Marvel. I guess you're right it does get depressing wondering where the next will betrayal come from. While those types stories are okay from time to time, it's happening with too much frequency lately. Nobody inspires anyone anymore it seems. I don't want to dog on today's writers and there are some good things going on but they really need to change it up some.

Even with the current members I don't think they would stand a chance. Not even the Busiek Perez line up could take them down. In this current time with the available teams it would probably take them and the X-men.

[XPac]

I liked the Exemplars. Powerful team that flat out beat the Avengers head to head. It's a shame they're not used more.

That said, on paper I never bought that each member was Juggernaut level. On paper at least, I would have thought Juggy at full power should be able to plow through a good half of them by himself.

[Nomads1]

I liked the Exemplars. Powerful team that flat out beat the Avengers head to head. It's a shame they're not used more.

That said, on paper I never bought that each member was Juggernaut level. On paper at least, I would have thought Juggy at full power should be able to plow through a good half of them by himself.

I think that was due to the variety of powers that they had. Juggy was the muscle. He seemed more powerful. However, if the others had had time to be fleshed out, I figure we could've seen some really bad dudes and dudetts. I'll give you something, with the obvious exception of Juggy, they are a hard bunch to write well.

Peace

[StoneGold]

The Exemplars were awsome, and worthy enemies of Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Another exciting creation of Busiek's run. That being said, I don't see Marvel bringing them back anytime soon. Too old school storytelling. Better to have Marvel's new architects show how it's done right in a mega-event with dozens of tie-ins.
(Geez, there really should be a way to pass sarcasm in theses boards.)

Peace

Because Busiek would never write a mega-event with dozens of tie ins.

I mean, other than the only Marvel did between the end of the 90s and House of M.

http://www.programasfull.com/comics/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/securitypc1.jpg

[XPac]

Because Busiek would never write a mega-event with dozens of tie ins.

I mean, other than the only Marvel did between the end of the 90s and House of M.

http://www.programasfull.com/comics/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/securitypc1.jpg

As big a fan of the Avengers (and Busiek) as I was, I gotta say Maximum Security just didn't do it for me.

I think the whole Kang Dynasty thing would have made for a funner company wide event. Ah well.

[StoneGold]

As big a fan of the Avengers (and Busiek) as I was, I gotta say Maximum Security just didn't do it for me.

I think the whole Kang Dynasty thing would have made for a funner company wide event. Ah well.

You mean more fun. There is no such word as funner.


But be being a grammar dick aside, you're probably right. Although even then, it's a matter of a single-book threat getting blown out to a line-wide threat. But the point was more about trying to call one thing old-school storytelling, when it clearly wasn't. It was a big crossover that randomly invaded titles -- the only thing separating it from a modern crossover was a central title, but that's not exactly a new invention either.

[XPac]

You mean more fun. There is no such word as funner.


But be being a grammar dick aside, you're probably right. Although even then, it's a matter of a single-book threat getting blown out to a line-wide threat. But the point was more about trying to call one thing old-school storytelling, when it clearly wasn't. It was a big crossover that randomly invaded titles -- the only thing separating it from a modern crossover was a central title, but that's not exactly a new invention either.

It did have a central title though, didn't it?

[StoneGold]

It did have a central title though, didn't it?

Maximum Security, yes. Exemplars, I don't believe so. Sorry, I went back to the original argument.

[XPac]

Maximum Security, yes. Exemplars, I don't believe so. Sorry, I went back to the original argument.

Oh, you were talking about the Exemplar thing. My bad.

Nevermind.

[StoneGold]

Oh, you were talking about the Exemplar thing. My bad.

Nevermind.

Mine, really, I went back to the original argument without saying so. Or if you prefer, a little bit both bad.

[Cthulhudrew]

I'd like to see the Exemplars again, but more free-willed (like Jugs) and less "Avatars of XXXX" like they were. Kurt sort of laid the groundwork for it in their final appearance, which was cool. Having them constantly vying for dominance with one another over the fate of the world gets a little old if it's the same story, every time. Having them show up individually- as antagonists or protagonists (some of them were quite likeable as mortals) would give much more pathos to them as characters and for storytelling purposes.

[Cthulhudrew]

As big a fan of the Avengers (and Busiek) as I was, I gotta say Maximum Security just didn't do it for me.

You're not the only one. I did rather enjoy the PAD/Captain Marvel and Priest/Black Panther tie-ins, though.

Love Busiek and his work. Maximum Security just didn't do it for me. The Kree being able to pass themselves off as a heretofore undiscovered alien race and insinuate themselves into the Galactic Council and undermine Earth's standing with all the numerous alien races in the span of one issue was really hard to swallow, and I didn't like how the warrior Kree were turned into the duplicitous Ruul (particularly given their history of millenia of warfare with the similarly duplicitous and shapeshifting Skrulls).

That said, the concept was good (Earth as penal colony for the rest of the universe). Maybe if it had been given more time for buildup than just three issues.

[tigerkaya]

I'd like to see the Exemplars again, but more free-willed (like Jugs) and less "Avatars of XXXX" like they were. Kurt sort of laid the groundwork for it in their final appearance, which was cool. Having them constantly vying for dominance with one another over the fate of the world gets a little old if it's the same story, every time. Having them show up individually- as antagonists or protagonists (some of them were quite likeable as mortals) would give much more pathos to them as characters and for storytelling purposes.

As matter fact some of them showed potential for good Bedlam, Decay, Tempest, and Stonecutter. It would be interesting where they go from here I could see Stonecutter using his abilities to help rebuild neighborhoods like Yancy Street after Fear Itself.

[mattbib]

While reading Fear Itself #1 I actually thought to myself that it might be the Exemplars returning in some fashion...that's what they should have gone with.

[XPac]

While reading Fear Itself #1 I actually thought to myself that it might be the Exemplars returning in some fashion...that's what they should have gone with.

Yeah, they maybe could have gone with the Exemplars instead of the Worthy at least. That might have been fun.

[Nomads1]

Because Busiek would never write a mega-event with dozens of tie ins.

I mean, other than the only Marvel did between the end of the 90s and House of M.

http://www.programasfull.com/comics/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/securitypc1.jpg

I never said Busiek would never do a mega-event with dozens of tie-ins. What I said was that the Exemplares were too much old-school story-telling for today's Marvel. Too much wild fantasy with sci-fi motivations, not enough global conspirancy, hidden agendas, covert ops or whatever, that Marvel seems to favor in ther story-telling nowadays.
I also disliked Maximum Security. Strangely enough, the main series and the Avengers tie-in, were the best for me. Hated pretty much all the X-Men angle and found most of the other tie-ins extremely boring.
One more thing, I do agree with you that Kang Dynasty might have suffered from not being contained in a single book, and been an "event" as you will, however, it does bug me that it was never even acknowledged in any other book (at least that I have read), not even of the same line. It diminished the sense of consequence of the whole story. I guess it fell on the opposite side of the spectrum of an event, when talking about a shared universe.

Peace

[Expletive Deleted]

I liked them as an obstacle for the Avengers to overcome and as a use of Marvel mythology, but I thought they were fairly weak characters outside of that context. A faux-Kirby costume, a simple power set, and roughly-sketched character trait or two. Granted, the basic personalities made sense in terms of their storyline, but it didn't make them especially compelling, individually.

I wouldn't mind seeing them come back in, say, a Dr. Strange story if someone wanted to explore the mystic angle, or maybe just do something with one of them in depth without the baggage of the others, but beyond than that . . .

[Kurt Busiek]

I also disliked Maximum Security. Strangely enough, the main series and the Avengers tie-in, were the best for me. Hated pretty much all the X-Men angle and found most of the other tie-ins extremely boring.

One more thing, I do agree with you that Kang Dynasty might have suffered from not being contained in a single book, and been an "event" as you will, however, it does bug me that it was never even acknowledged in any other book (at least that I have read), not even of the same line. It diminished the sense of consequence of the whole story. I guess it fell on the opposite side of the spectrum of an event, when talking about a shared universe.

This is the Crossover Trap. on MAXIMUM SECURITY, the stuff you liked most was the stuff I wrote directly, and the rest of it bored you.

On KANG DYNASTY, you don't like that there wasn't stuff I didn't write, even though it might well have bored you. So it goes.

I think KANG DYNASTY was acknowledged a couple of places -- once in DEFENDERS, by me, and once in THUNDERBOLTS, I think, by Fabian. But after so many of the tie-ins for MAXSEC seems to come out forced and grudging, we figured you don't get good tie-ins unless you (a) get them from people who actually want to play along, or (b) step on people's necks with the editorial force of Write It My Way.

I don't like (b), so we let everyone know what we were doing in DYNASTY, and invited anyone who wanted to to tie in. Apparently, no one wanted to but Fabian. And then Washington DC was magically All Better in the very first issue I didn't write. But so it goes.

I'm happier with DYNASTY, because it doesn't depend on anyone else telling a part of the story. And after all, none of the other Marvel books acknowledged the Galactus Trilogy, not until long after it happened. So I can't worry about what other books didn't do.

kdb

[Kurt Busiek]

I also disliked Maximum Security. Strangely enough, the main series and the Avengers tie-in, were the best for me. Hated pretty much all the X-Men angle and found most of the other tie-ins extremely boring.

One more thing, I do agree with you that Kang Dynasty might have suffered from not being contained in a single book, and been an "event" as you will, however, it does bug me that it was never even acknowledged in any other book (at least that I have read), not even of the same line. It diminished the sense of consequence of the whole story. I guess it fell on the opposite side of the spectrum of an event, when talking about a shared universe.

This is the Crossover Trap. on MAXIMUM SECURITY, the stuff you liked most was the stuff I wrote directly, and the rest of it bored you.

On KANG DYNASTY, you don't like that there wasn't stuff I didn't write, even though it might well have bored you. So it goes.

I think KANG DYNASTY was acknowledged a couple of places -- once in DEFENDERS, by me, and once in THUNDERBOLTS, I think, by Fabian. But after so many of the tie-ins for MAXSEC seems to come out forced and grudging, we figured you don't get good tie-ins unless you (a) get them from people who actually want to play along, or (b) step on people's necks with the editorial force of Write It My Way.

I don't like (b), so we let everyone know what we were doing in DYNASTY, and invited anyone who wanted to to tie in. Apparently, no one wanted to but Fabian. And then Washington DC was magically All Better in the very first issue I didn't write. But so it goes.

I'm happier with DYNASTY, because it doesn't depend on anyone else telling a part of the story. And after all, none of the other Marvel books acknowledged the Galactus Trilogy, not until long after it happened. So I can't worry about what other books didn't do.

Oh, and having the Exemplars come back as individual villains, in control of themselves but with Juggernaut-level powers, was the idea. Maybe someone will eventually do it.

kdb

[marvell2100]

This is the Crossover Trap. on MAXIMUM SECURITY, the stuff you liked most was the stuff I wrote directly, and the rest of it bored you.

On KANG DYNASTY, you don't like that there wasn't stuff I didn't write, even though it might well have bored you. So it goes.

I think KANG DYNASTY was acknowledged a couple of places -- once in DEFENDERS, by me, and once in THUNDERBOLTS, I think, by Fabian. But after so many of the tie-ins for MAXSEC seems to come out forced and grudging, we figured you don't get good tie-ins unless you (a) get them from people who actually want to play along, or (b) step on people's necks with the editorial force of Write It My Way.

I don't like (b), so we let everyone know what we were doing in DYNASTY, and invited anyone who wanted to to tie in. Apparently, no one wanted to but Fabian. And then Washington DC was magically All Better in the very first issue I didn't write. But so it goes.

I'm happier with DYNASTY, because it doesn't depend on anyone else telling a part of the story. And after all, none of the other Marvel books acknowledged the Galactus Trilogy, not until long after it happened. So I can't worry about what other books didn't do.

kdb

That's exactly what I said about Kang Dynasty. I'm glad you got to write the story you wanted to write the way that you wanted to do it. Would it have been better if it was company wide? Maybe, maybe not. If others wanted to participate or not, that was fine. But it didn't take away anything from my enjoyment of the story.

[XPac]

I liked them as an obstacle for the Avengers to overcome and as a use of Marvel mythology, but I thought they were fairly weak characters outside of that context. A faux-Kirby costume, a simple power set, and roughly-sketched character trait or two. Granted, the basic personalities made sense in terms of their storyline, but it didn't make them especially compelling, individually.

I wouldn't mind seeing them come back in, say, a Dr. Strange story if someone wanted to explore the mystic angle, or maybe just do something with one of them in depth without the baggage of the others, but beyond than that . . .

I thing about them is that as a whole, I only think most of them are threats collectively.

Maybe I'm selling them short... but Carnivore to me was basically a Sabretooth analogue. Conquest is maybe a marvel equivalent of Deathstroke. Without the telepath or the inventor guy helping, I'm not sure if any of the others could even hurt Juggy let alone beat him.

Though to their credit they did flat out beat the Avengers. So they can get it done. But individually... they don't really wow me in terms of threat level. They certainly don't seem Juggernaut level as a whole (maybe 1 or 2 of them could be) But like I said... maybe I'm selling them a bit short.

[Cthulhudrew]

Maybe I'm selling them short... but Carnivore to me was basically a Sabretooth analogue. Conquest is maybe a marvel equivalent of Deathstroke.

That's kind of the thing I was alluding to about wanting to see them outside of the whole "avatar" mode; I think when they get their original personalities back, they'd be much more interesting. Carnivore as Carnivore isn't much more than a more powerful Sabretooth/Wolverine, but give him the Carnivore powerset plus his original personality- and now the master treasure hunter Count Zorba suddenly has the unsurpassed skill and cunning to acquire all the world's artifacts and relics for himself, amassing a massive store of arcana and technology. (Which actually gives me an idea, now that I think of it.)

What if the Kenya born Bedlam decides to take it upon herself to use her vast powers to effect political and social change in neighboring Uganda or Somalia (or even fictional Marvel African nations)? Perhaps her well intentioned but heavy handed actions force other heroes to get involved in the ensuing conflict?

Decay seemed like a decent enough person in his mortal guise, but what will become of him now that the art lover discovers that his powers can't be turned off, and all that he touches will be consumed? It might drive him a little bonkers, and that way lay the path of many a great villain.

Tempest, with her environmental activism and ability to command the very forces of weather itself, could turn into a great grey anti-hero character. Her methods are extreme, but her motives are pure.

Conquest is just asking to be turned into a villain; ties to the IRA, a history of violence. I could see her teaming up with a new Hatemonger, or perhaps Ultimatum or the Flag-Smasher (the original one really needs to turn up alive again, dangit.)


Without the telepath or the inventor guy helping, I'm not sure if any of the others could even hurt Juggy let alone beat him.

I think a couple of them would do all right. Conquest could probably hurt him- Shatterstar was able to cut Jugs before (admittedly, a Liefeld story), so Conquest should be able to do likewise. Carnivore seemed convinced he could take Juggernaut out, although that could just be braggadocio. Juggernaut still needs to breathe, as far as I can tell (could be wrong), so Tempest could possibly take him down.

(And of course the endlessly depowered Juggernaut would be much easier for them to injure. I wish they'd keep him at Cyttorak avatar levels.)

Of course, as someone else pointed out, Jugs is supposed to be the Powerhouse among them, so it stands to reason that they would have to resort to other means besides pure physical combat to beat him. It's pretty much how every story revolving around Juggernaut has ended with anyway, so its par for the course.

Again, KB pretty much laid out the development for the Exemplars to move beyond just being avatars like they were in those two stories, so hopefully someone else will pick up on it some time.

[Nomads1]

This is the Crossover Trap. on MAXIMUM SECURITY, the stuff you liked most was the stuff I wrote directly, and the rest of it bored you.

On KANG DYNASTY, you don't like that there wasn't stuff I didn't write, even though it might well have bored you. So it goes.

I think KANG DYNASTY was acknowledged a couple of places -- once in DEFENDERS, by me, and once in THUNDERBOLTS, I think, by Fabian. But after so many of the tie-ins for MAXSEC seems to come out forced and grudging, we figured you don't get good tie-ins unless you (a) get them from people who actually want to play along, or (b) step on people's necks with the editorial force of Write It My Way.

I don't like (b), so we let everyone know what we were doing in DYNASTY, and invited anyone who wanted to to tie in. Apparently, no one wanted to but Fabian. And then Washington DC was magically All Better in the very first issue I didn't write. But so it goes.

I'm happier with DYNASTY, because it doesn't depend on anyone else telling a part of the story. And after all, none of the other Marvel books acknowledged the Galactus Trilogy, not until long after it happened. So I can't worry about what other books didn't do.

Oh, and having the Exemplars come back as individual villains, in control of themselves but with Juggernaut-level powers, was the idea. Maybe someone will eventually do it.

kdb

Yes, that was my point. Kang worked better as a self-contained story, in which you had freedom to show your view of all the facts. Tie-ins from different writers who didn't share your view, or who didn't want to write it might have weakened it. As it is, Kang Dynasty stands among my 10 all-time favorite Avengers story (you wrote, at least, 3 others). What I'm saying is that a simple mention of the happenings of Kang Dynasty in other books (Spider-man commenting how hard it was to evade Kang's camps, or Johnny and Ben talking "too bad about what happened in Washington" or some such would have been enough) would have enhanced the sense of consequence of the story. It's the whole shared universe experience we all enjoy so much.

I also agree with you about the crossover trap, or the way they do events nowadays.
For me, (this is my opinion of course, as a fan. I don´t work at a big company and I'm not intrested in milking as much money as I can from my audience. For me it's simply about stroy enjoyment.) a good event has to be in the molds of COIE. Sure it had a gazzilion tie-ins (most of which, I didn't read), but the story is all there in the main book. It's different than something like Secret Invasion, where the main book seemed like tid-bits and pointless actions, and the whole story seemed to happen elsewhere (IMHO, the meat of SI happened in Avengers: the Initiative.).
Another model that seems to work for me, but that they seem to have unlearned, is the time-honored model of tight-knitted cross-overs like Avengers/Defenders War and Operation Galactic Storm, where the story seems to flow from book to book in a tight and orderly fashion (of course, having the same writer made Avengers/Defenders easier, but OGS was a true masterpeice of editing coordination).

Peace

[Nomads1]

That's kind of the thing I was alluding to about wanting to see them outside of the whole "avatar" mode; I think when they get their original personalities back, they'd be much more interesting. Carnivore as Carnivore isn't much more than a more powerful Sabretooth/Wolverine, but give him the Carnivore powerset plus his original personality- and now the master treasure hunter Count Zorba suddenly has the unsurpassed skill and cunning to acquire all the world's artifacts and relics for himself, amassing a massive store of arcana and technology. (Which actually gives me an idea, now that I think of it.)

What if the Kenya born Bedlam decides to take it upon herself to use her vast powers to effect political and social change in neighboring Uganda or Somalia (or even fictional Marvel African nations)? Perhaps her well intentioned but heavy handed actions force other heroes to get involved in the ensuing conflict?

Decay seemed like a decent enough person in his mortal guise, but what will become of him now that the art lover discovers that his powers can't be turned off, and all that he touches will be consumed? It might drive him a little bonkers, and that way lay the path of many a great villain.

Tempest, with her environmental activism and ability to command the very forces of weather itself, could turn into a great grey anti-hero character. Her methods are extreme, but her motives are pure.

Conquest is just asking to be turned into a villain; ties to the IRA, a history of violence. I could see her teaming up with a new Hatemonger, or perhaps Ultimatum or the Flag-Smasher (the original one really needs to turn up alive again, dangit.)



I think a couple of them would do all right. Conquest could probably hurt him- Shatterstar was able to cut Jugs before (admittedly, a Liefeld story), so Conquest should be able to do likewise. Carnivore seemed convinced he could take Juggernaut out, although that could just be braggadocio. Juggernaut still needs to breathe, as far as I can tell (could be wrong), so Tempest could possibly take him down.

(And of course the endlessly depowered Juggernaut would be much easier for them to injure. I wish they'd keep him at Cyttorak avatar levels.)

Of course, as someone else pointed out, Jugs is supposed to be the Powerhouse among them, so it stands to reason that they would have to resort to other means besides pure physical combat to beat him. It's pretty much how every story revolving around Juggernaut has ended with anyway, so its par for the course.

Again, KB pretty much laid out the development for the Exemplars to move beyond just being avatars like they were in those two stories, so hopefully someone else will pick up on it some time.

That's why I said that they are hard to write. It's easy to picture Juggernaut as a frightenning unstoppable force. He is pure physical strength taken to the extreme. But it's hard to show the same kind of awsomeness with the others.
Carnivore has to be Wolverine and Sabretooth multiplied by ten in terms of savagery and cunning, of speed and fierceness. He has to make Logan look like a kitten. Conquest has to be Gamorra (the universe's deadliest woman) to the extreme. Able to kill and destroy with the slightest move. Precision personified. She has to make Captain America look like 4F Steve Rogers. Inferno has to be the ultimate energy wielder, and so on...
It's hard to set up these guys as such awsome adversaries, and then come up with a believable way for the good guys to take them down. However, in the hands of a writer up to the challenge, it would be one spectacular story.

Peace

[The Cool Thatguy]

I liked them as an obstacle for the Avengers to overcome and as a use of Marvel mythology, but I thought they were fairly weak characters outside of that context. A faux-Kirby costume, a simple power set, and roughly-sketched character trait or two. Granted, the basic personalities made sense in terms of their storyline, but it didn't make them especially compelling, individually.

Frankly, with the exception of character traits, the same could be applied to all of The Worthy. They're just pointless destructive forces of nature to the point they're practically the same character.

[StoneGold]

Frankly, with the exception of character traits, the same could be applied to all of The Worthy. They're just pointless destructive forces of nature to the point they're practically the same character.

The main difference being, the people being possessed are people that we know. Which does change the dynamic quite a bit. No one cares if unnamed character gets killed in order to stop the rampaging monster. If you gotta put down Benjy, though, people get upset.

[The Cool Thatguy]

The main difference being, the people being possessed are people that we know. Which does change the dynamic quite a bit. No one cares if unnamed character gets killed in order to stop the rampaging monster. If you gotta put down Benjy, though, people get upset.

It's not enough f a difference to matter though, since we know that they're protected by plot armor. Beyond that, Hulk and Thing are probably the only characters anyone really cares about.

[tigerkaya]

Thats a problem I've had with the Worthy if they had just design new weaponry besides hammers and given them more diverse personalities like the Exemplars I think it would have been much better. Would have been interesting if they replaced Attuma with Stingray being the Hermes of the Worthy in terms of speed and his weapon of choice a trident similar to Odin's spear. Would of also been better if one of the Worthy like Stonecutter was a builder to show off more of the cosmic Asgardian aspect Fraction keeps telling us that made Thor great back in the Kirby days.

[tigerkaya]

That's kind of the thing I was alluding to about wanting to see them outside of the whole "avatar" mode; I think when they get their original personalities back, they'd be much more interesting. Carnivore as Carnivore isn't much more than a more powerful Sabretooth/Wolverine, but give him the Carnivore powerset plus his original personality- and now the master treasure hunter Count Zorba suddenly has the unsurpassed skill and cunning to acquire all the world's artifacts and relics for himself, amassing a massive store of arcana and technology. (Which actually gives me an idea, now that I think of it.)

What if the Kenya born Bedlam decides to take it upon herself to use her vast powers to effect political and social change in neighboring Uganda or Somalia (or even fictional Marvel African nations)? Perhaps her well intentioned but heavy handed actions force other heroes to get involved in the ensuing conflict?

Decay seemed like a decent enough person in his mortal guise, but what will become of him now that the art lover discovers that his powers can't be turned off, and all that he touches will be consumed? It might drive him a little bonkers, and that way lay the path of many a great villain.

Tempest, with her environmental activism and ability to command the very forces of weather itself, could turn into a great grey anti-hero character. Her methods are extreme, but her motives are pure.

Conquest is just asking to be turned into a villain; ties to the IRA, a history of violence. I could see her teaming up with a new Hatemonger, or perhaps Ultimatum or the Flag-Smasher (the original one really needs to turn up alive again, dangit.)



I think a couple of them would do all right. Conquest could probably hurt him- Shatterstar was able to cut Jugs before (admittedly, a Liefeld story), so Conquest should be able to do likewise. Carnivore seemed convinced he could take Juggernaut out, although that could just be braggadocio. Juggernaut still needs to breathe, as far as I can tell (could be wrong), so Tempest could possibly take him down.

(And of course the endlessly depowered Juggernaut would be much easier for them to injure. I wish they'd keep him at Cyttorak avatar levels.)

Of course, as someone else pointed out, Jugs is supposed to be the Powerhouse among them, so it stands to reason that they would have to resort to other means besides pure physical combat to beat him. It's pretty much how every story revolving around Juggernaut has ended with anyway, so its par for the course.

Again, KB pretty much laid out the development for the Exemplars to move beyond just being avatars like they were in those two stories, so hopefully someone else will pick up on it some time.


Those are some great ideas on the individual members I especially see potential in that Bedlam plot. For Inferno I could see her use new found powers to profit in demolition perhaps or using her powers to create new sources of energy for Project Pegasus.