Greater impact: Fantastic Four or Spider-Man?

[Ben Smith]

Which run had the greater impact on the Marvel universe: The first 100 issues of Fantastic Four or the first 100 issues of The Amazing Spider-Man?

notable themes and characters introduced:

Fantastic Four
Radiation powered heroes
Public identities
The hero that hates being a superhero (The Thing)
Dr. Doom
Molecule Man
Skrulls
The reintroduction/recharacterization of Namor
The first supervillain team-up
The Inhumans
Galactus
Silver Surfer
The Watcher

Spider-Man
A teenage hero as the lead
A hero with problems
J Jonah Jameson
Daily Bugle
Dr. Octopus
Norman Osborn
The hero quitting (ASM 50)
The Kingpin
The "drug" issues

I'm sure there is more I am forgetting that others will add to the lists

[Meehaul]

Spidey. The FF were groundbreaking in their own way, but Spidey is the more significant force. He's on a par with Superman and Batman.

[Fast]

It'll be tough for Spidey to overcome the FF essentially starting the Marvel Universe and changing how superhero comics were done (before Spidey then took the ball and ran with it a little more).

[GCA-FF]

http://cdn1.knowyourmeme.com/i/29516/original/Question-Spiderman-i-dunno-lol-.jpg?1260078330

[Ben Smith]

It'll be tough for Spidey to overcome the FF essentially starting the Marvel Universe and changing how superhero comics were done (before Spidey then took the ball and ran with it a little more).

yeah, my initial reaction is to go with FF.

if you extend ASM out to #129, which would include the death of Gwen and Goblin (unprecedented at the time) and the 1st Punisher, it might be a little closer

[Fast]

yeah, my initial reaction is to go with FF.

if you extend ASM out to #129, which would include the death of Gwen and Goblin (unprecedented at the time) and the 1st Punisher, it might be a little closer

Thats my thought as well. The fewer issues you include the more it tends to be in FF's favor IMO the more issues included tends to favor Spidey.

[Xenon]

I would have to say Spider-Man. Because while FF may have started the Marvel universe, it was Spider-Man that showed that going to that new way was a great idea and is more frequently emulated.

That is to say, thinking of comics created since then and how characters have changed since then. While the Fantastic Four may have had more focus on the heroes private live than before, they were still essentially professional superheroes. Like Batman, like Superman (sure, Superman had a job, but that job wasn't his REAL job). Spider-Man wasn't a professional, he was a kid who happened into his powers and was still trying to live his life as Peter Parker. And that is perhaps the biggest tonal shift in comics period. These aren't just larger-than-life aliens/billionaires/genius', they're normal people who have been thrust into or chosen to follow not ordinary situations. And if you look at how comic book characters are written today, I think you'll see a lot more of that. That's Spider-Man's legacy. It's not just about how much you do, it's about how wide-spread what you do is.

Think about this. You can make a fairly strong argument that Spider-Man has had a significant influence on how Superman was written from his Man of Steel reboot onward. The man influence the grand-daddy of all superheroes.

[Alan2099]

I think the FF broke the mold and started things off with unconventional superheroes, but Spider-man really molded the modern view on superheroes even more. Spider-man paved the way for average people to be superheroes.

[RDMacQ]

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

[derekakadrock]

They're about equal to me; like others have said, one paved the way for the other. We likely wouldn't have a Spider-Man without the Fantastic Four.

[LEADER DESSLOK]

If I'm fully comprehending the meaning of the question, which has had the greater impact overall, then it's a simple answer: Spider-Man may be Marvel's number one cash cow (I still think it's really THE X-MEN these days) and Spidey's name recognition may be up there with DC's BIG THREE (Supes, Bats and Diana) but the bottom line is that THE FANTASTIC FOUR has had THE greatest impact overall!

The FF broke ALL the rules! No costumes (originally), a super-team where each member had a distinct personality! Engaged, then married then parental team-mates! Team-mates who fought each other almost as much as the villains they pursued. An Anti-hero with a wild sense of humor (The Thing); an incredibly diverse rogue's gallery including one of the greatest villains in the history of fiction (Dr.Doom); Galactus and The Silver Surfer and other cosmic concepts outside of The Twilight Zone or The Outer Limits; ethnic diversity as well as the physically challenged (The Black Panther, Wyatt Wingfoot and the blind Alicia Masters) and on and on...they sure WEREN'T the Justice League! Heck, there was NEVER a team like them nor a COMIC BOOK like the FANTASTIC FOUR!

In conclusion, there is NO doubt in my mind that the popularity of The Thing and The Human Torch led to the creation of The Hulk and Spider-Man, himself! From a historical perspective there is simply no doubt whatsoever-- Stan wasn't kidding when he called it THE WORLD'S GREATEST COMIC MAGAZINE!

[Xenon]

If I'm fully comprehending the meaning of the question, which has had the greater impact overall, then it's a simple answer: Spider-Man may be Marvel's number one cash cow (I still think it's really THE X-MEN these days) and Spidey's name recognition may be up there with DC's BIG THREE (Supes, Bats and Diana) but the bottom line is that THE FANTASTIC FOUR has had THE greatest impact overall!

The FF broke ALL the rules! No costumes (originally), a super-team where each member had a distinct personality! Engaged, then married then parental team-mates! Team-mates who fought each other almost as much as the villains they pursued. An Anti-hero with a wild sense of humor (The Thing); an incredibly diverse rogue's gallery including one of the greatest villains in the history of fiction (Dr.Doom); Galactus and The Silver Surfer and other cosmic concepts outside of The Twilight Zone or The Outer Limits; ethnic diversity as well as the physically challenged (The Black Panther, Wyatt Wingfoot and the blind Alicia Masters) and on and on...they sure WEREN'T the Justice League! Heck, there was NEVER a team like them nor a COMIC BOOK like the FANTASTIC FOUR!

In conclusion, there is NO doubt in my mind that the popularity of The Thing and The Human Torch led to the creation of The Hulk and Spider-Man, himself! From a historical perspective there is simply no doubt whatsoever-- Stan wasn't kidding when he called it THE WORLD'S GREATEST COMIC MAGAZINE!

The question isn't who had the most new stuff, the question is who made the greatest impact. But you cite stuff like no costumes, which didn't even last long in FF's own book, and is carried on by....? The Boys and Luke Cage? That's not a very big impact.

[Ben Smith]

of course, we can't forget to take this legendary introduction into account
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m283/cdale78/amazing20spiderman200820-2002_edited.jpg

[Asbestos Man]

yeah, my initial reaction is to go with FF.

if you extend ASM out to #129, which would include the death of Gwen and Goblin (unprecedented at the time)....r

Actually the death of Gwen Stacey wasn't nearly as unprecedented as lots of todays readers seem to think. The deaths of both Janice Cord in Iron Man and Lady Dorma in Sub-Mariner, (who arguably played an even larger role in that strip than Gwen Stacey in Spider-Man) proceeded it. Gwen's death wasn't even the first death of a regular cast memeber in Spider-Man. That would be her father George Stacey or (depending on your definition of regular cast member) Frederik Foswell

[whiteshark]

Interesting question.

The scope of the stories of Fanatsic Four were more epic that the stories of Spidey.
Even so i think that the narative of the first 100 issues of Spidey was more consistent in redefiing modern super hero stories thus getting my vote.

[Ben Smith]

Actually the death of Gwen Stacey wasn't nearly as unprecedented as lots of todays readers seem to think. The deaths of both Janice Cord in Iron Man and Lady Dorma in Sub-Mariner, (who arguably played an even larger role in that strip than Gwen Stacey in Spider-Man) proceeded it. Gwen's death wasn't even the first death of a regular cast memeber in Spider-Man. That would be her father George Stacey or (depending on your definition of regular cast member) Frederik Foswell

actually, Aquaman's son was probably before them. hell, Uncle Ben was the first in the Spider-Man books.

the difference is nobody cares about any of the characters you mentioned.

this was the death of a major supporting character in Marvels top book, and one of his top villains.

but I guess that's why everybody is talking about the Death of Lady Dorma to this very day

[LEADER DESSLOK]

The question isn't who had the most new stuff, the question is who made the greatest impact. But you cite stuff like no costumes, which didn't even last long in FF's own book, and is carried on by....? The Boys and Luke Cage? That's not a very big impact.
No, they didn't continue with the no costume thing BUT THEY WERE THE FIRST! The question was who had the greatest lasting impact. Nearly every super-hero comic published today, INCLUDING Spider-Man owes something to that book and its innovations. Your question didn't say who was more "popular" but who had the greatest impact--without question it was the FF. Superman was THE first super-hero. He may not be the numbeer one best seller anymore and was even outsold back in "his" day by the upstart Captain Marvel, but Supes was first, he broke all the molds back then just as the FF broke new ground 22 years later.

You may like Spidey better than the FF but FACTS are FACTS.

Oh, waitaminnit...

[LEADER DESSLOK]

Interesting question.

The scope of the stories of Fanatsic Four were more epic that the stories of Spidey.
Even so i think that the narative of the first 100 issues of Spidey was more consistent in redefiing modern super hero stories thus getting my vote.

How so? The Thing and his story was MUCH more intense in terms of a hero's dealing with "personal problems". At least Peter Parker looks human. Ditto with many of the X-Men. But if you are "different" in some way, physically challenged, you belong to another "race" or religion or if you're constantly questioning if the one who loves you, "really" does so or is merely attracted to your fame, wealth or whatever. Or if you grew up poor and go on to success, those you left behind on your old block (Yancy Street) might become resentful of your achievements, you could identify with Ben Grimm. There were so many stories told within the life of The Thing himself, I haven't even touched on the other members of the FF. On the other hand, and Spidey fans have talked about this for years, after Ditko's departure, the first 10 issues of John Romita's tenure, defined the character for the next 20 years. In short, he fell into a rut awful fast. He was still popular and even grew in popularity but he had already "jumped the shark" in terms of innovation. But at the same time, 1966, the FF were just getting warmed up!

The FF gave us Spidey and his woes, the aforementioned X-Men, the intergalactic adventures of The Avengers, including their inner-conflicts and just about any new super team (and even the old ones) looked at the success and the innovations of THE FANTASTIC FOUR. I'll even wager, most editors probably use the first 70-100 issues of the FF as a bible for success!
Heck, look at the first two books in which Spidey appears: who did the cover? The artist from the FF. And who is surrounding Spider-Man on the cover of THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #1? Oh, those guys again. Spidey is more popular now but the whole "super heroes with super problems" started with "The World's Greatest Comic Magazine".

[Kevin Nichols]

I'd probably say the Fantastic Four had a bigger impact on the Marvel U. The Marvel Silver Age was pretty much built around them, with a lot of elements from that book having universal effects (Galactus, Negative Zone, The Watcher, etc.). They set the groundwork for every cosmic facet of the Marvel U. The FF also boasts the introduction of Dr. Doom, a guy who has fought nearly every character (hero and villain) in the Marvel U at one point or another.

The scope of Spidey's stories (especially in those early issues) was a lot more localized than those of the Fantastic Four. He went to London once and Jersey a handful of times in the first 100 issues, but for the most part, all of his adventures were based solidly in New York. And the impact of the threats he faced were largely confined to New York.

[coconutphone]

FF. Not just on comics but the Marvel U itself. They introduced much bigger and more important concepts than Spidey. He intriduced a lot of fun characters but the more 'important' characters/concepts to the Marvel U at large were in in FF.

[whiteshark]

How so? The Thing and his story was MUCH more intense in terms of a hero's dealing with "personal problems". At least Peter Parker looks human. Ditto with many of the X-Men. But if you are "different" in some way, physically challenged, you belong to another "race" or religion or if you're constantly questioning if the one who loves you, "really" does so or is merely attracted to your fame, wealth or whatever. Or if you grew up poor and go on to success, those you left behind on your old block (Yancy Street) might become resentful of your achievements, you could identify with Ben Grimm. There were so many stories told within the life of The Thing himself, I haven't even touched on the other members of the FF. On the other hand, and Spidey fans have talked about this for years, after Ditko's departure, the first 10 issues of John Romita's tenure, defined the character for the next 20 years. In short, he fell into a rut awful fast. He was still popular and even grew in popularity but he had already "jumped the shark" in terms of innovation. But at the same time, 1966, the FF were just getting warmed up!

The FF gave us Spidey and his woes, the aforementioned X-Men, the intergalactic adventures of The Avengers, including their inner-conflicts and just about any new super team (and even the old ones) looked at the success and the innovations of THE FANTASTIC FOUR. I'll even wager, most editors probably use the first 70-100 issues of the FF as a bible for success!
Heck, look at the first two books in which Spidey appears: who did the cover? The artist from the FF. And who is surrounding Spider-Man on the cover of THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #1? Oh, those guys again. Spidey is more popular now but the whole "super heroes with super problems" started with "The World's Greatest Comic Magazine".


Amazing Spider-Man jumped the shark after Dikto left the title you say?!
This makes no sense whatsoever,the Spidey titles remained popular and aclaimed,and the title kept being innovitave even without Dikto.

Gerry Conway stories,The Orginal Clone Saga,Roger Stern stories,Spidey black costume,Tom de Falco stories and David Michelinie stories are just a few examples of how the title kept being innovative.


And the theme of the FF stories were many times done before in SCI FI comics before the 60s,Spidey comics by having the main character whith traist of a Avarage Joe redefined more the modern comic bookks era that the stories of FF.

Thus why there were much more stories of Spidey published that FF.

[Dean MD]

Which run had the greater impact on the Marvel universe:

On the Marvel Universe itself, probably FF.

On comics in general, I think Spider-Man. It introduced a new type of hero and story and challenged the comics code of the day.

[Kevin Nichols]

On the Marvel Universe itself, probably FF.

On comics in general, I think Spider-Man. It introduced a new type of hero and story and challenged the comics code of the day.

That's probably a good way to put it.

[Mister Mets]

It'll be tough for Spidey to overcome the FF essentially starting the Marvel Universe and changing how superhero comics were done (before Spidey then took the ball and ran with it a little more).

I'm tempted to go with Spidey.

The big question for me was whether there would be a Spider-Man without the Fantastic Four. And I think that's a probability considering the character's debut in an about to be cancelled scifi anthology.

[Mikey Brown]

Neither. Mary Jane brought the greatest impact. Shes dreamy. We should all worship her.

[Xenon]

No, they didn't continue with the no costume thing BUT THEY WERE THE FIRST! The question was who had the greatest lasting impact. Nearly every super-hero comic published today, INCLUDING Spider-Man owes something to that book and its innovations. Your question didn't say who was more "popular" but who had the greatest impact--without question it was the FF. Superman was THE first super-hero. He may not be the numbeer one best seller anymore and was even outsold back in "his" day by the upstart Captain Marvel, but Supes was first, he broke all the molds back then just as the FF broke new ground 22 years later.

You may like Spidey better than the FF but FACTS are FACTS.

Oh, waitaminnit...

Just being the first isn't the key to impact. There were motion controlled games before the Wii, but the Wii is what made the impact. Which is my point. You point out that they were first, which is fine, they were. But they weren't the first comic book characters, they were the first in the Marvel U, but the question is, did they DEFINE the Marvel U.

And I don't think so. You don't see many comic books that followed their template after they came out. Half the team is older than most super-heroes after them, they have a heavy emphasis on family, while other comics family is considered anathema and are constantly running from it. They go on cosmic super adventures, while most of the Marvel U focuses on things that happen in the here and now on Earth.

I would say that the Fantastic Four were the stopgap measure in between the DC comics prior to them and the Marvel comics that came after them. They were the professional heroes, they dealt with cosmic problems and Aliens and the like, but they still had some personal lives.


I'm tempted to go with Spidey.

The big question for me was whether there would be a Spider-Man without the Fantastic Four. And I think that's a probability considering the character's debut in an about to be cancelled scifi anthology.

I think there would ahve been. If FF had failed I think it just would have been a different universe that Spider-Man fell into. I don't think what the Fantastic Four did was necessary to create a situation where Spider-Man could exist.

[Ben Smith]

I would say that the Fantastic Four were the stopgap measure in between the DC comics prior to them and the Marvel comics that came after them. They were the professional heroes, they dealt with cosmic problems and Aliens and the like, but they still had some personal lives.

I think you're underselling their importance. FF was the signature Marvel book in those early years.


I think there would ahve been. If FF had failed I think it just would have been a different universe that Spider-Man fell into. I don't think what the Fantastic Four did was necessary to create a situation where Spider-Man could exist.

not necessarily. Stan Lee was about to quit, which is one of the reasons he was so experimental with the FF. The FF doesn't succeed, Stan is probably gone

[Scott Taylor]

FF, I think. It was the flagship franchise for Marvel for many years, on the strength of Jack Kirby and Stan Lee's storytelling and sentiments at the time for a family comic. Spider-Man, for its day, was much less mainstream and niche. Though still popular, of course. But FF...it was like the Avengers are today in terms of importance to Marvel.

[StoneGold]

Easy math.

No FF=no Spider-Man.

[Ben Smith]

FF, I think. It was the flagship franchise for Marvel for many years, on the strength of Jack Kirby and Stan Lee's storytelling and sentiments at the time for a family comic. Spider-Man, for its day, was much less mainstream and niche. Though still popular, of course. But FF...it was like the Avengers are today in terms of importance to Marvel.

There is a reason the FF appear in the very first issue of Amazing Spider-Man, after all

[Xenon]

I think you're underselling their importance. FF was the signature Marvel book in those early years.

Perhaps I am. I don't mean the stopgap phrase to be negative though, just sort of like it's a transitional version. If you look at Marvel heroes since the FF they tend to be much more personal than the Big Damn heroes before that. I mean, take Batman for example. Your silver age Batman stories were likely to not have Bruce Wayne at all. It was Batman and Robin swinging into the latest caper featuring who knows what. Aliens, thugs, the Joker, shrink rays, de-aging beams, none of it was off the table. So you look at that and you see a crazy variety of different stuff that what is now considered one of the more grounded heroes was fighting, and you see almost no focus on his personal life.

Compare that to the Fantastic Four, and it's not all that far from that. They still feature wacky who knows what plots (Galactus! Skrulls! People from beneath the surface!), and the Fantastic Four acts as professional superheroes. The difference is that they did have a focus on their lives outside of just saving the day. Not entirely, but at least to an extent.

And then compare that to something like Spider-Man, the X-Men, or even other comics since then. They have whole plot-lines (sub-plots, but stilll...) devoted to the character as a normal person. I mean, since I started comics a couple months ago. I've been picking up Power Girl in trades (primarily because that art is simply amazing). There you have a person who is an Alien who crash landed on earth in another dimension who was then absorbed into the normal dimension. The most ridiculous origin you could possible have, but even that book takes a significant portion to devote to her working at a civilian job and dealing with managing her life. It doesn't even really intersect with her superheroics, it's something else entirely that she does. You also get far fewer heroes devoted to cosmic anything goes plot lines. Time Travel is all but disallowed in the Marvel-verse, and DC has taken great pains to attempt to eliminate the multiple realities (with little success, but hey, they're trying). Batman only fights aliens now when he teams up with Superman and the Justice League.

That's why it seems more like Spider-Man has had a bigger impact, because Fantastic Four was moving in that direction, but Spider-Man got there, and now nearly everybody shoots for that.




not necessarily. Stan Lee was about to quit, which is one of the reasons he was so experimental with the FF. The FF doesn't succeed, Stan is probably gone

I generally don't consider the financials when it comes to impact, though this may simply be foolish of me. I mean, if American Graffiti had bombed, Star Wars wouldn't have gotten made. So does that mean that American Graffiti was the most influential Sci-Fi movie ever made? I would say it has nothing to do with Sci-Fi at all. It's that sort of thing to me.

[Ben Smith]

I get what you're saying. Thematically, they were a bridge between the old style and the new. but to only look at them in that respect is underselling that book.

it's like saying Star Wars was just a bridge between Buck Rogers and The Matrix

[Ben Smith]

I generally don't consider the financials when it comes to impact, though this may simply be foolish of me. I mean, if American Graffiti had bombed, Star Wars wouldn't have gotten made. So does that mean that American Graffiti was the most influential Sci-Fi movie ever made? I would say it has nothing to do with Sci-Fi at all. It's that sort of thing to me.

I was only following your line of thinking that Spider-Man would have been made regardless

[Xenon]

I get what you're saying. Thematically, they were a bridge between the old style and the new. but to only look at them in that respect is underselling that book.

it's like saying Star Wars was just a bridge between Buck Rogers and The Matrix

Fair enough.


I was only following your line of thinking that Spider-Man would have been made regardless

And I think it would have from a creative stand-point ignorign the economics of it.

[LEADER DESSLOK]

...That's why it seems more like Spider-Man has had a bigger impact, because Fantastic Four was moving in that direction, but Spider-Man got there, and now nearly everybody shoots for that...


One could argue that Spider-Man is very influential on solo heroes like Moon Knight or Daredevil. But the fact is that in Spider-Man's comic, which I think came out before the Human Torch got his own solo series, Stan Lee could expand upon certain scenes that occurred in the course of the FF's adventures, like the Torch's hanging out with his friends at a soda fountain or in a garage. As for professions, Sue was a model, not a globe trekking one, but someone who worked for department stores like Macy's or Gimbel's. Sue supported Johnny, her brother, Ben, I assume, worked as Reed's assistant, piloting his rocket and lifting heavy machinery while Reed made money off his patents and then invested it. After Johnny had a falling out with the FF (in #4) he had to stay at a "flophouse" while he planned his next move: namely looking for a job! The point is that Stan wanted to show that these heroes had to earn their money and that no one was a "rich playboy".

In SPIDER-MAN, Lee had more room to expand on these themes in ways that the FF's regular title wouldn't allow. But that's just it, Spider-Man was an expansion on a theme that was established in--yep, THAT BOOK again! So, the FF didn't JUST lead to the exploration of new ideas in just "Team" books but in "solo" books as well! Face it, that FANTASTIC FOUR was the grand-daddy of most, if not all super-heroes who came after its debut!

[Lee H]

of course, we can't forget to take this legendary introduction into account
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m283/cdale78/amazing20spiderman200820-2002_edited.jpg

What a dick! Break his glasses Flash!

[Ben Smith]

What a dick! Break his glasses Flash!

I like that their science teacher instigates the fight

[Xenon]

One could argue that Spider-Man is very influential on solo heroes like Moon Knight or Daredevil. But the fact is that in Spider-Man's comic, which I think came out before the Human Torch got his own solo series, Stan Lee could expand upon certain scenes that occurred in the course of the FF's adventures, like the Torch's hanging out with his friends at a soda fountain or in a garage. As for professions, Sue was a model, not a globe trekking one, but someone who worked for department stores like Macy's or Gimbel's. Sue supported Johnny, her brother, Ben, I assume, worked as Reed's assistant, piloting his rocket and lifting heavy machinery while Reed made money off his patents and then invested it. After Johnny had a falling out with the FF (in #4) he had to stay at a "flophouse" while he planned his next move: namely looking for a job! The point is that Stan wanted to show that these heroes had to earn their money and that no one was a "rich playboy".

In SPIDER-MAN, Lee had more room to expand on these themes in ways that the FF's regular title wouldn't allow. But that's just it, Spider-Man was an expansion on a theme that was established in--yep, THAT BOOK again! So, the FF didn't JUST lead to the exploration of new ideas in just "Team" books but in "solo" books as well! Face it, that FANTASTIC FOUR was the grand-daddy of most, if not all super-heroes who came after its debut!

Notice all those assumptions you make there. Because it was a secondary theme of the book, not the main part. With Spider-Man you have a shift of focus.

You phrase it as an expansion of the theme, and it therefore goes back to the original, but that doesn't really work. Clark Kent has a private life too, that doesn't mean the FF is just an expansion of the theme of his private life. That part of the FF is their own. Just because you address an in a issue in a basic way does not mean it gets credit for everything that deals with that issue at all. From Russia with Love is not an influence on Searching for Bobby Fischer.

[Ace Grayson]

Spidey. The FF were groundbreaking in their own way, but Spidey is the more significant force. He's on a par with Superman and Batman.

100% agreed.

[argon31pf]

Confession: I've read only the first 25 issues of the FF and only the first 10 of Spider-Man but with the FF issues I swear I was seeing the Marvel Universe being built by Lee and Kirby block by gorgeous block. The Spider-Man issues built up the Spider-Man Universe which is a cornerstone of the larger Marvel Universe.

[Therion]

within the marvel universe, the FF had a greater impact (simply put, Galactus could have ended the whole universe), but within the comic industry, nothing comes close during his time as Spidey.

:cool:

[LEADER DESSLOK]

Amazing Spider-Man jumped the shark after Dikto left the title you say?!
This makes no sense whatsoever,the Spidey titles remained popular and aclaimed,and the title kept being innovitave even without Dikto.

Gerry Conway stories,The Orginal Clone Saga,Roger Stern stories,Spidey black costume,Tom de Falco stories and David Michelinie stories are just a few examples of how the title kept being innovative.
And the theme of the FF stories were many times done before in SCI FI comics before the 60s,Spidey comics by having the main character whith traist of a Avarage Joe redefined more the modern comic bookks era that the stories of FF.

Thus why there were much more stories of Spidey published that FF.

ITEM #1- uh, I acknowledged Spidey's popularity. "Jumped the shark" means it never got any BETTER! It mostly held steady, quality wise. Oh, and both Roger Stern and Marv Wolfman looked BACKWARD toward the DITKO41. That's entertaining but not innovative. Spidey's getting married in a non-imaginary story WAS innovative--but according to Marvel's current braintrust, it was a "mistake" because Spidey isn't a "family" series (WTF?) like--THE FANTASTIC FOUR!

ITEM #2- No, the FF didn't invent SCI-Fi. but there was never a character or concept like the Silver Surfer! No super-heroes had REAL children. Sue Storm had a child in AUTHENTIC continuity, not imaginary. The FF had a witch for a nanny. And these points are made at the exclusion of the SCI-FI inspired concepts like the Microverse, the Negative Zone, The Kree, etc.

ITEM #3- see my comments about The Thing. He WAS the original "Joe Average" turned super-hero. But I'll bet The Thing wouldn't mind trading his superior strength for Peter Parker's "average" looks without hesitation. Peter whines about how tragic his life is. Ben Grimm lives it...

[LEADER DESSLOK]

Notice all those assumptions you make there. Because it was a secondary theme of the book, not the main part. With Spider-Man you have a shift of focus.

You phrase it as an expansion of the theme, and it therefore goes back to the original, but that doesn't really work. Clark Kent has a private life too, that doesn't mean the FF is just an expansion of the theme of his private life. That part of the FF is their own. Just because you address an in a issue in a basic way does not mean it gets credit for everything that deals with that issue at all. From Russia with Love is not an influence on Searching for Bobby Fischer.

I used the phrase "expansion on a theme" because that is precisely what it was. Sorry, semantic games don't fly with me. The "new" Torch was popular with the young fans as evidenced by his prominence on the FF's early covers and the fact that he eventually got his own series. Marvel has a history of cloning both the concepts of others and their own successes. If one "teen hero" worked--why not try another? Which answers Mister Mets' question. Stan was one foot out the door. If the FF had failed, there never would have been a Spidey because Stan would have quit!

Oh, and as for Clark Kent's "private life", PUH-LEEZ! Before Byrne, Clark Kent was always a disguise, not his actual "life". He could have hung out in his Arctic Fortress but "Kent" allowed him to be at a spot where he could get immediate info about people who needed his help.

[Xenon]

I used the phrase "expansion on a theme" because that is precisely what it was. Sorry, semantic games don't fly with me. The "new" Torch was popular with the young fans as evidenced by his prominence on the FF's early covers and the fact that he eventually got his own series. Marvel has a history of cloning both the concepts of others and their own successes. If one "teen hero" worked--why not try another? Which answers Mister Mets' question. Stan was one foot out the door. If the FF had failed, there never would have been a Spidey because Stan would have quit!

Oh, and as for Clark Kent's "private life", PUH-LEEZ! Before Byrne, Clark Kent was always a disguise, not his actual "life". He could have hung out in his Arctic Fortress but "Kent" allowed him to be at a spot where he could get immediate info about people who needed his help.

And that last part is exactly my point. Clark Kent's private life was barely there, but it is there. He takes Lois dancing in Action Comics #1. Books like Fantastic Four made it a bigger part, and they had an independent impact. And then Spider-Man made it an even bigger impact, and IT has an independent impact. And Spider-Man's impact is what was emulated, not the half-step that Fantastic Four took.

[LEADER DESSLOK]

What a dick! Break his glasses Flash!

Compared to the clown they've got running around now, with his copy-Cat silicone breasted "friend with benefits", I'll take this obnoxious "bookworm" any time!:smile:

[LEADER DESSLOK]

And that last part is exactly my point. Clark Kent's private life was barely there, but it is there. He takes Lois dancing in Action Comics #1. Books like Fantastic Four made it a bigger part, and they had an independent impact. And then Spider-Man made it an even bigger impact, and IT has an independent impact. And Spider-Man's impact is what was emulated, not the half-step that Fantastic Four took.

Hence the phrase: "...expansion on a theme...". No FF, no Spidey. No, momma, no baby.


Hmmm, now I'm talking like Solomon Grundy. It must be the lack of sleep...zzzz...

[Ace Grayson]

Stan Lee said he created Spider-Man to identify with the teenage audience that comic books were getting. I don't think FF had anything to do with it.

[whiteshark]

ITEM #1- uh, I acknowledged Spidey's popularity. "Jumped the shark" means it never got any BETTER! It mostly held steady, quality wise. Oh, and both Roger Stern and Marv Wolfman looked BACKWARD toward the DITKO41. That's entertaining but not innovative. Spidey's getting married in a non-imaginary story WAS innovative--but according to Marvel's current braintrust, it was a "mistake" because Spidey isn't a "family" series (WTF?) like--THE FANTASTIC FOUR!

Comic book companies are the ones who decide which status quo is the best for the characters they own,just as twenty years ago they decided that Spidey should marry in recent years that same company decided Spidey should be single.Is as simple as that,dont see why the whining about that is all about after four years already.

And you saying the stories never got better is diminishing a lot the work of comic book creators during decades which kept the title being popular and having generaly good stories.



IITEM #2- No, the FF didn't invent SCI-Fi. but there was never a character or concept like the Silver Surfer! No super-heroes had REAL children. Sue Storm had a child in AUTHENTIC continuity, not imaginary. The FF had a witch for a nanny. And these points are made at the exclusion of the SCI-FI inspired concepts like the Microverse, the Negative Zone, The Kree, etc.

Sure there were original concepts and characters in the stories of FF,but they were not as inovitave as the Spidey stories.
There had been tons of stories featuring SCI fi themes as FF,but comic book stories featuring a super hero which besides having to be a super hero to struglle with problems a avarage person would have,now thats something that had not been done before.
Thus why Spidey stories were more innovitave in redefining the way comic books stories were created 60s onwards.



ITEM #3- see my comments about The Thing. He WAS the original "Joe Average" turned super-hero. But I'll bet The Thing wouldn't mind trading his superior strength for Peter Parker's "average" looks without hesitation. Peter whines about how tragic his life is. Ben Grimm lives it...

Except there are not many Avarage Joes that are traped in a stone shaped form!!
And the problems that Peter faced (paying the bills,keeping a job,helping family and frends ) are more in line with being a Avarage Joe that Thing.

[Leocomix]

Impact on the Marvel universe?

Well, Spider-Man had very little impact. Any impact he had was on comics generally not so much on the Marvel universe.

The FF defined what is the Marvel universe.
They established the existence of:
subterranea
time travel
the link with the golden age (Sub-Mariner)
the microverse
the negative zone
main aliens (Skrulls, Kree) and many secondary ones
Watcher (spin-off)
Black Panther (spin-off)
Inhumans (spin-off)
Galactus (a universal threat)
Silver Surfer (spin-off)

thematic:
first wedding in the MU
first birth

Even the theme of the unpopular hero was first told in FF #2 and it was probably the teenage Human Torch's popularity that encouraged Lee to create Rick Jones, Spider-Man and the X-Men.
The theme of the hero beset by debt was told in FF #9.

[Motherboy]

LEADER DESSLOCK is clearly crazy old Stan Lee. We got you, Stan.

[LEADER DESSLOK]

Stan Lee said he created Spider-Man to identify with the teenage audience that comic books were getting. I don't think FF had anything to do with it.

The EXACT same thing can be said about the Human Torch! He was around during the 40s, he saw the impact CAPTAIN MARVEL, ROBIN and CAPTAIN MARVEL, JR. had on the younger comic book fans-- which is why Marvel cranked out Bucky, Toro, and Marvel Boy! Remember that "cloning" I mentioned? The Torch was a hit, why not another one? Heck, I think Stan even alluded to that fact in SON OF ORIGINS ("...wHY NOT a TEAM of super-teens?" In other words, The X-Men) Stan loves to tell sexy little whoppers that have little or no bearing on what actually happened. There is no question that the Torch was a hit. And Spider-Man an even bigger one.

I actually like Spidey and before OMD I used to buy his comic but my liking a character is not going to blind me to historical truths. The FF was THE most influential and groundbreaking book of its day just like The X-Men are in a lot of ways today, or at least since the Claremont\Byrne\Cockrum era.

I don't want to get too far off track but I feel that once Spidey became a "cash cow" his days of breaking new ground were pretty much done although there have been exceptions, like his marriage. The same can be said about the FF after #100 although they definitely had some great moments during Byrne's run.

[ShaggyB]

ITEM #1- uh, I acknowledged Spidey's popularity. "Jumped the shark" means it never got any BETTER! It mostly held steady, quality wise.

well in that case it didnt jump the shark either.

Definition: "Jumping the shark is a widely used idiom, first employed to describe a moment in the evolution of a television show, characterized by absurdity, when a particular show abandons its core premises and begins a decline in quality that is beyond recovery."

[LEADER DESSLOK]

...And you saying the stories never got better is diminishing a lot the work of comic book creators during decades which kept the title being popular and having generaly good stories...

I never said they weren't entertaining, just not innovative.

And ya know what, I think "THIS MAN, THIS MONSTER" holds up pretty nicely over "Spidey Lifts the machine" (I think the actual title is "The Final Chapter" but I might be wrong.) Whenever I look at the first 100 issues of both books, I feel that after the DITKO41, Spidey continued to have many great MOMENTS but the ratio of good to great issues started to decline even while Spidey's sales increased (aided by his popular cartoon, no doubt). But at the same time, the FF just got better and better with every issue! And while some hardcore FF fans feel that Stan and Jack were just treading water after FF #94, I think those last six issues weren't their best but still considerably better than a good chunk that was put out by their competitors (sorry, DC!)

There is no question that Spidey has thrived over the years because everybody and their Uncle Jake wants to write Spider-Man but the FF has seen some bad times. It's easy to throw some Fembots at Parker to create some "soap operatics" and then call it a plot but the FF is the kind of book which will separate the real writers and storytellers from the posers and many probably find that intimidating, especially compared with those first wonderful 100 issues...

[whiteshark]

I never said they weren't entertaining, just not innovative.

And ya know what, I think "THIS MAN, THIS MONSTER" holds up pretty nicely over "Spidey Lifts the machine" (I think the actual title is "The Final Chapter" but I might be wrong.) Whenever I look at the first 100 issues of both books, I feel that after the DITKO41, Spidey continued to have many great MOMENTS but the ratio of good to great issues started to decline even while Spidey's sales increased (aided by his popular cartoon, no doubt). But at the same time, the FF just got better and better with every issue! And while some hardcore FF fans feel that Stan and Jack were just treading water after FF #94, I think those last six issues weren't their best but still considerably better than a good chunk that was put out by their competitors (sorry, DC!)

There is no question that Spidey has thrived over the years because everybody and their Uncle Jake wants to write Spider-Man but the FF has seen some bad times. It's easy to throw some Fembots at Parker to create some "soap operatics" and then call it a plot but the FF is the kind of book which will separate the real writers and storytellers from the posers and many probably find that intimidating, especially compared with those first wonderful 100 issues...


What are you on about "throwing Fem Bots at Parker to create some soap operatics".:confused:
Your digs against the Spidey stories as the time move on are not making much sense.

Anyways if Fantastic Four was so much innovative that Spider-Man,why did more comic books characters and comics copied the stories of Spidey that the ones of Fantastic Four?

[Mister Mets]

Easy math.

No FF=no Spider-Man.I'm not so sure about that.

Spider-Man first appeared in the last issue of a cancelled scifi anthology. The response to that led to the Amazing Spider-Man monthly.

And that could have happened regardless of whether or not the Fantastic Four was a huge success.

As for the idea that Stan Lee would have left Marvel if FF#1 hadn't sold well, the man's made a few conflicting statements on the topic. What if the book had just been a modest success?


One could argue that Spider-Man is very influential on solo heroes like Moon Knight or Daredevil. But the fact is that in Spider-Man's comic, which I think came out before the Human Torch got his own solo series, Stan Lee could expand upon certain scenes that occurred in the course of the FF's adventures, like the Torch's hanging out with his friends at a soda fountain or in a garage. As for professions, Sue was a model, not a globe trekking one, but someone who worked for department stores like Macy's or Gimbel's. Sue supported Johnny, her brother, Ben, I assume, worked as Reed's assistant, piloting his rocket and lifting heavy machinery while Reed made money off his patents and then invested it. After Johnny had a falling out with the FF (in #4) he had to stay at a "flophouse" while he planned his next move: namely looking for a job! The point is that Stan wanted to show that these heroes had to earn their money and that no one was a "rich playboy".

In SPIDER-MAN, Lee had more room to expand on these themes in ways that the FF's regular title wouldn't allow. But that's just it, Spider-Man was an expansion on a theme that was established in--yep, THAT BOOK again! So, the FF didn't JUST lead to the exploration of new ideas in just "Team" books but in "solo" books as well! Face it, that FANTASTIC FOUR was the grand-daddy of most, if not all super-heroes who came after its debut! Definitely a worthwhile point.

[Ben Smith]

I never said they weren't entertaining, just not innovative.

if that's the case, then why are you still so upset about the marriage?

[Ace Grayson]

The EXACT same thing can be said about the Human Torch! He was around during the 40s, he saw the impact CAPTAIN MARVEL, ROBIN and CAPTAIN MARVEL, JR. had on the younger comic book fans-- which is why Marvel cranked out Bucky, Toro, and Marvel Boy! Remember that "cloning" I mentioned? The Torch was a hit, why not another one? Heck, I think Stan even alluded to that fact in SON OF ORIGINS ("...wHY NOT a TEAM of super-teens?" In other words, The X-Men) Stan loves to tell sexy little whoppers that have little or no bearing on what actually happened. There is no question that the Torch was a hit. And Spider-Man an even bigger one.

I actually like Spidey and before OMD I used to buy his comic but my liking a character is not going to blind me to historical truths. The FF was THE most influential and groundbreaking book of its day just like The X-Men are in a lot of ways today, or at least since the Claremont\Byrne\Cockrum era.

I don't want to get too far off track but I feel that once Spidey became a "cash cow" his days of breaking new ground were pretty much done although there have been exceptions, like his marriage. The same can be said about the FF after #100 although they definitely had some great moments during Byrne's run.

I'm sure it can, but has it? I think it's safer to say Stan Lee would've created Spider-Man regardless of the FF. Even assuming that's true, I thought this was about their respective impact (I'm ignoring the 1-100 issue constraint because it's ridiculous)? Like another user posted, Spider-Man is a much higher tier than FF; next to Batman and Superman. FF is big from the "family of superheroes" angle, but many, many, many more characters have been created in Spider-Man's mold.

[LEADER DESSLOK]

What are you on about "throwing Fem Bots at Parker to create some soap operatics".:confused:
Your digs against the Spidey stories as the time move on are not making much sense.

Anyways if Fantastic Four was so much innovative that Spider-Man,why did more comic books characters and comics copied the stories of Spidey that the ones of Fantastic Four?

ITEM #1- Some think that Spider-Man is only a "soap opera" when he's having romantic turmoil. But in an actual soap, there is definitely romance involved but usually other plot threads are thrown in there simultaneously--that is a TRUE soap opera. I NEVER read Spider-Man for his romantic entanglements--if anything, they usually bored me. Hence the term "fembots"--they usually have very little personality and are thrown in there to create artificial "turmoil"...

ITEM #2- Because writing "soap operatics" are much easier than writing good sci-fi! One problem with the post-Lee\Kirby FF is just that, the writers were writing a "super-hero" comic, whereas when Byrne took over, one thing he accomplished was putting SCI-Fi back into the book! (although Doug Moench and Bill Sienkiewicz' black hole story at the end of their mediocre tenure was excellent! Too little, too late!)

ITEM #3- fOR MISTER METS: "What if the FF had been a moderate success?"
I dunno. What if donkeys could fly? What if Carlie Cooper was an interesting character? The bottom line is that the FF WAS a hit and the success of the Torch DID give birth to Spidey! Next...?

[Meehaul]

The EXACT same thing can be said about the Human Torch! He was around during the 40s, he saw the impact CAPTAIN MARVEL, ROBIN and CAPTAIN MARVEL, JR. had on the younger comic book fans-- which is why Marvel cranked out Bucky, Toro, and Marvel Boy! Remember that "cloning" I mentioned? The Torch was a hit, why not another one? Heck, I think Stan even alluded to that fact in SON OF ORIGINS ("...wHY NOT a TEAM of super-teens?" In other words, The X-Men) Stan loves to tell sexy little whoppers that have little or no bearing on what actually happened. There is no question that the Torch was a hit. And Spider-Man an even bigger one.

I actually like Spidey and before OMD I used to buy his comic but my liking a character is not going to blind me to historical facts. The FF was THE most influential and groundbreaking book of its day just like The X-Men are in a lot of ways today, or at least since the Claremont\Byrne\Cockrum era.

I don't want to get too far off track but I feel that once Spidey became a "cash cow" his days of breaking new ground were pretty much done although there have been exceptions, like his marriage. The same can be said about the FF after #100 although they definitely had some great moments during Byrne's run.

DL, I fixed your post for you (...historical "truths" to "facts"... to keep the fact gun loaded). Although, the marriage wasn't ground breaking. It had already been done.

[LEADER DESSLOK]

well in that case it didnt jump the shark either.

Definition: "Jumping the shark is a widely used idiom, first employed to describe a moment in the evolution of a television show, characterized by absurdity, when a particular show abandons its core premises and begins a decline in quality that is beyond recovery."

That's funny, I saw an interview with the gentleman who actually coined the phrase and he was very specific. He said that HAPPY DAYS was still a good show. but it never got any better (in other words, it had "peaked") and could only decline after reaching that peak: "jumping the shark"...

[Ben Smith]

That's funny, I saw an interview with the gentleman who actually coined the phrase and he was very specific. He said that HAPPY DAYS was still a good show. but it never got any better (in other words, it had "peaked") and could only decline after reaching that peak: "jumping the shark"...

that wasn't funny

you must have a different definition of "funny". like your definition of "fact"

[Dean MD]

I don't think there is a dictionary definition for jump-the-shark.

[LEADER DESSLOK]

DL, I fixed your post for you (...historical "truths" to "facts"... to keep the fact gun loaded). Although, the marriage wasn't ground breaking. It had already been done.
Only if you consider Bruce Banner (The Hulk) to be in that same elite with DC's BIG THREE...

B-List heroes like The Flash don't count as they aren't considered "cash cows" and as such there is greater leeway, ask Geof Johns...

[Ben Smith]

Only if you consider Bruce Banner (The Hulk) to be in that same elite with DC's BIG THREE...

B-List heroes like The Flash don't count as they aren't considered "cash cows" and as such there is greater leeway, ask Geof Johns...

The Flash is B-list?

Hardly

[Dean MD]

The Flash is B-list?

Hardly

I'd say he is. I'd never heard of The Flash until I took an interest in comics.

[LEADER DESSLOK]

The Flash is B-list?

Hardly

Then why was Aquaman one of the original SUPER FRIENDS instead of The Flash? Oh, yeah, that's right, he did have his own show, for about half a second! No wonder they call him...

[Ben Smith]

I'd say he is. I'd never heard of The Flash until I took an interest in comics.

you must have been very sheltered.

[Ben Smith]

Then why was Aquaman one of the original SUPER FRIENDS instead of The Flash? Oh, yeah, that's right, he did have his own show, for about half a second! No wonder they call him...

huh?

http://www.tvcrazy.net/tvclassics/wallpaper/cartoons/mike/super-friends.jpg

[Scott Taylor]

I so had a crush on WW.

[Dean MD]

I have a crush on the Nu Wonder Woman, but she won't return my calls. I'm thinking of transferring my crush to the Flashpoint version, she looks wild.

[Ace Grayson]

I'd say he is. I'd never heard of The Flash until I took an interest in comics.

So? The Flash is an A-List character...

[ShaggyB]

That's funny, I saw an interview with the gentleman who actually coined the phrase and he was very specific. He said that HAPPY DAYS was still a good show. but it never got any better (in other words, it had "peaked") and could only decline after reaching that peak: "jumping the shark"...

yes but you didnt indicate it had declined thus the generally accepted definition didnt fit.

[Dean MD]

you must have been very sheltered.

Wouldn't I have been more sheltered if I had heard of The Flash?


So? The Flash is an A-List character...

In the DCU maybe, but not as far as being a recognizable part of pop culture. This is going to sound like an "internet fact" but I've mentioned The Flash before, or pointed him out on somebody's top and nobody knew who he was.

I'd say that Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, Catwoman, The Hulk and maybe since the last decade or so, Wolverine are the only real "A List" superheroes who have transcended into recognizable pop culture icons.

Yes, I'm aware that movies like Iron Man and Daredevil exist, but I still don't think these films have elevated public awareness of those characters to the levels that the other characters were already at.

[Ben Smith]

Wouldn't I have been more sheltered if I had heard of The Flash?

touche


In the DCU maybe, but not as far as being a recognizable part of pop culture. This is going to sound like an "internet fact" but I've mentioned The Flash before, or pointed him out on somebody's top and nobody knew who he was.

in my experience, he's a pop culture name. there were many guys I knew as a kid, if they could run fast (which was a status raiser in grade school) kids would call him "Flash".

Dwayne Wade, one of the best players in the NBA, his nickname is Flash, because he moves so quick.

on name recognition alone, I'd say Flash is right up there with Batman, Superman, Robin, and Wonder Woman.

[Dean MD]

in my experience, he's a pop culture name. there were many guys I knew as a kid, if they could run fast (which was a status raiser in grade school) kids would call him "Flash".

Dwayne Wade, one of the best players in the NBA, his nickname is Flash, because he moves so quick.

on name recognition alone, I'd say Flash is right up there with Batman, Superman, Robin, and Wonder Woman.

I forgot Robin in my most recognizable list (I'd include Joker, too).

I think Flash is still a big deal, but I've never found him to be up there with the other ones I named. Maybe it's a regional thing, running fast being a status raiser is universal though.

[Ben Smith]

I forgot Robin in my most recognizable list (I'd include Joker, too).

I think Flash is still a big deal, but I've never found him to be up there with the other ones I named. Maybe it's a regional thing, running fast being a status raiser is universal though.

name alone, I'd say Flash is. it could be generational too. I don't know what age group you fall in. Super Friends was still big in my early childhood.

Joker is on the list, easily. maybe Catwoman. Lois Lane. Hulk

[Dean MD]

name alone, I'd say Flash is. it could be generational too. I don't know what age group you fall in. Super Friends was still big in my early childhood.

Joker is on the list, easily. maybe Catwoman. Lois Lane. Hulk

Possibly it is, I was born in 88.

[Ben Smith]

Possibly it is, I was born in 88.

so young, so naive

[Mister Mets]

That's funny, I saw an interview with the gentleman who actually coined the phrase and he was very specific. He said that HAPPY DAYS was still a good show. but it never got any better (in other words, it had "peaked") and could only decline after reaching that peak: "jumping the shark"...

Here's what the writer had to say about it for the LA Times.
(http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/03/entertainment/la-et-jump-the-shark-20100903)

In 1987, Jon Hein and his roommates at the University of Michigan were drinking beer and had Nick at Nite playing in the background. They started talking about classic TV shows when someone asked, "What was the precise moment you knew it was downhill for your favorite show?" One said it was when Vicki came on board "The Love Boat." Another thought it was when the Great Gazoo appeared on "The Flintstones." Sean Connolly offered, "That's easy: It was when Fonzie jumped the shark." As Hein later recounted, there was silence in the room: "No explanation necessary, the phrase said it all."

Fox went on to defend the sharkjumping episode. But the myth had become the truth. The majority of people who use the term haven't seen the original episode, so they're just going by the standard understanding of the term: the moment it's clear thing are going downhill.

[Mister Mets]

So? The Flash is an A-List character...

I'm not sure about that. Barry Allen is historically important as the first Silver Age DC hero. And I suspect the average reasonably knowledgeable comic book reader knows what some of the most important Flash comics are.

But how much do people know about the character, aside from his power-set?

[LEADER DESSLOK]

huh?

http://www.tvcrazy.net/tvclassics/wallpaper/cartoons/mike/super-friends.jpg

OH, NO YOU DIDN'T! That's NOT the original SUPER FRIENDS! That's from the season after the LEGION OF DOOM\Challenge of the Super-Friends series, where 2 Super Friends would team up against a villain.

The ORIGINAL SUPER-FRIENDS series (narrated by Ted Knight) featured:

SUPERMAN, WONDER WOMAN, BATMAN & ROBIN, AQUAMAN with WENDY, MARVIN and WONDER-DOG!

Where are you getting your data--FOX NEWS?

[Ben Smith]

I'm not sure about that. Barry Allen is historically important as the first Silver Age DC hero. And I suspect the average reasonably knowledgeable comic book reader knows what some of the most important Flash comics are.

But how much do people know about the character, aside from his power-set?

I guess that would come down to your definiton of A-list. name recognition with basic power set, I would consider A-list.

if others definition requires costume/logo recognition, alter identity, other aspects, than no, he's not A-list.

[Mister Mets]

I guess that would come down to your definiton of A-list. name recognition with basic power set, I would consider A-list.

if others definition requires costume/logo recognition, alter identity, other aspects, than no, he's not A-list.The lightning bolt logo is rather recognizable.

I think it has to be more than "name recognition with basic power set." At the very least, I'd expect comic book fans to be able to answer what distinguishes the character from others with similar abilities.

[Ben Smith]

The lightning bolt logo is rather recognizable.

I think it has to be more than "name recognition with basic power set." At the very least, I'd expect comic book fans to be able to answer what distinguishes the character from others with similar abilities.

oh, I'm talking about non-comics readers.

that's an interesting question about whether or not the Flash has a higher status through other media, and non-comics readers, than he does among comic readers.

[Mikey Brown]

This is a tough question because FF started it all but the Spidey stories made it all popular. I gotta go with.........theres just to many factors to decide! Dammit!

[LEADER DESSLOK]

Here's what the writer had to say about it for the LA Times.
(http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/03/entertainment/la-et-jump-the-shark-20100903)


Fox went on to defend the sharkjumping episode. But the myth had become the truth. The majority of people who use the term haven't seen the original episode, so they're just going by the standard understanding of the term: the moment it's clear thing are going downhill.

I tried to find the interview but no luck, it was either on the Early Show or the Today Show. The author (Hein) was promoting his book, JUMP THE SHARK and he was describing its meaning. The person interviewing him pointed out that Happy Days stayed on T.V. another 7 years or so after Fonzie jumped the shark. He clarified that it was still a good show, but its best days were behind it and it could only go downhill from that point on!

Getting back to Spidey, after the DITKO41, SPIDER-MAN didn't suck, it just never got any better. His sales went up but I thought the quality of the stories went down little by little. I DON'T think Romita did a BETTER Spidey than Ditko, he just drew prettier people and he sure wasn't the co-plotter Ditko was. It was still a good comic, but in comparison to the DITKO41 there are simply more turkeys from a story perspective. When I look at the Ditko episodes the only thing that comes close is the Tinkerer story. If we look at the Romita issues, from #39-80, GADZOOKS, it feels like a Thanksgiving Banquet!

John Jameson wears a diving suit and becomes a refugee from Lon Chaney's MAN-MADE MONSTER (It's MJ's debut, the only good thing about the book); some loser steals the Vulture's outfit then gets his butt kicked by an old man who wanted his wings back;then the Kingpin shows up, too bad the story is a lame remake of The End of Spider-Man (cool cover, though);and of course, the blasted Tablet Saga: the suckfest which could only be eclipsed by OMD\OMIT!

So yeah, Spidey JUMPED THE SHARK after the DITKO41 however, unlike Fonzie, Spidey has been periodically given artificial respiration...(but OMD wasn't one of 'em!)

LONG LIVE THE FF (oips, wrong team!)

[Xenon]

The lightning bolt logo is rather recognizable.

I think it has to be more than "name recognition with basic power set." At the very least, I'd expect comic book fans to be able to answer what distinguishes the character from others with similar abilities.

See, I'd argue that part of the list is your name recognition outside of the comic book community and how far that recognition goes, as I would put it there's.......

The Big Four - Super-Man, Batman, Spider-Man, The X-Men (maybe Wolverine himself)

A - List - If you showed an average passerby their picture, 9 out of 10 would know who it is I.E. Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Iron Man, Captain America, Hulk, etc.

B - List - If you showed a geek/nerd of the non-comic book variety their picture, they'd know who they were and their powers likely I.E. Daredevil (though his movie may have helped his recognition), Thor, Starfire, Raven, Green Arrow, etc.

C - List - Everyone else

[Ben Smith]

See, I'd argue that part of the list is your name recognition outside of the comic book community and how far that recognition goes, as I would put it there's.......

The Big Four - Super-Man, Batman, Spider-Man, The X-Men (maybe Wolverine himself)

A - List - If you showed an average passerby their picture, 9 out of 10 would know who it is I.E. Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Iron Man, Captain America, Hulk, etc.

B - List - If you showed a geek/nerd of the non-comic book variety their picture, they'd know who they were and their powers likely I.E. Daredevil (though his movie may have helped his recognition), Thor, Starfire, Raven, Green Arrow, etc.

C - List - Everyone else

Wolverine is questionable, because his movie and comic looks are different. the claws might clue somebody in, but I'd probably put him down in the A-list. 9 out of 10 people by your criteria

Robin, Aquaman, Flash are A-list

Thor will probably move up to A-list if his movie is a smash

I don't think Starfire, Raven, and Green Arrow are B-list

[Fast]

Where would you put people like Blade and Punisher who lots of people know of them but didn't realize they were comic characters?

[Ben Smith]

Where would you put people like Blade and Punisher who lots of people know of them but didn't realize they were comic characters?

probably A-list. I don't know if they have universal recognition, but 9 out of 10 probably

[Ace Grayson]

I'm not sure about that. Barry Allen is historically important as the first Silver Age DC hero. And I suspect the average reasonably knowledgeable comic book reader knows what some of the most important Flash comics are.

But how much do people know about the character, aside from his power-set?

Well, that's what an A-List character is...Someone who is generally recognizable by name and power-set.

Batman, Spider-Man, and Superman are the only characters the general person can tell you the origins of, so it's pretty ridiculous to limit an A-List character to how much the general person knows about them.

[Dean MD]

Batman, Spider-Man, and Superman are the only characters the general person can tell you the origins of, so it's pretty ridiculous to limit an A-List character to how much the general person knows about them.

It's not ridiculous because the A-List is, well, an A-List. It's not easy to get onto it.

I have to disagree with Starfire and Raven being B-list too. My idea of B-list )in terms of "general public" recognizablity) characters is those like Flash, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Aquaman, Cyclops, Prof Xavier etc.

[Ben Smith]

It's not ridiculous because the A-List is, well, an A-List. It's not easy to get onto it.

I have to disagree with Starfire and Raven being B-list too. My idea of B-list )in terms of "general public" recognizablity) characters is those like Flash, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Aquaman, Cyclops, Prof Xavier etc.

everybody knows Aquaman!

[Dean MD]

everybody knows Aquaman!

I wish everybody knew Aquaman. And Mera. And that they were both real, but Aquaman was dead and Mera came to me to get over her grief. I've always wanted to meet a mermaid who dresses in skin tight scales

[Ben Smith]

I wish everybody knew Aquaman. And Mera. And that they were both real, but Aquaman was dead and Mera came to me to get over her grief. I've always wanted to meet a mermaid who dresses in skin tight scales

is it wrong to find Tigra appealing?

[Duy]

is it wrong to find Tigra appealing?
Is it wrong that I have no answer to this question?

[Dean MD]

is it wrong to find Tigra appealing?

I hope not

[Ben Smith]

Is it wrong that I have no answer to this question?

not if you're a cube of faces

[Duy]

not if you're a cube of faces
There's an astrological symbol on one of my cubettes.

[Ben Smith]

There's an astrological symbol on one of my cubettes.

Spider-Man?

[Ace Grayson]

It's not ridiculous because the A-List is, well, an A-List. It's not easy to get onto it.

I have to disagree with Starfire and Raven being B-list too. My idea of B-list )in terms of "general public" recognizablity) characters is those like Flash, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Aquaman, Cyclops, Prof Xavier etc.

I'm not getting what you're saying? A-List can't possibly be how much someone knows about a character; look at Wonder Woman. She's recognizable everywhere, and is easily A-List, but the moment you mention "Themyscira," you're going to get blank stares.

[Ben Smith]

I'm not getting what you're saying? A-List can't possibly be how much someone knows about a character; look at Wonder Woman. She's recognizable everywhere, and is easily A-List, but the moment you mention "Themyscira," you're going to get blank stares.

that's where it comes down to each person's definition of A-list.

mine is name/powers recognition among non-comics people

[Dean MD]

I'm not getting what you're saying? A-List can't possibly be how much someone knows about a character; look at Wonder Woman. She's recognizable everywhere, and is easily A-List, but the moment you mention "Themyscira," you're going to get blank stares.

For me it's just how generally recognizable they are among non comic book readers.

Most people have heard of Wonder Woman and no what she looks like. She's recognizable and "A List" even if most people can't tell you anything else about her other than her name, and what she looks like.

In my experience, the only other characters who get this response are Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, The Hulk, Catwoman, Robin, The Joker and Wolverine - although people may just say X-Men when they see him, even if they can't think of any other X-Man.

[Lintu]

is it wrong to find Tigra appealing?

no considering you judging by your picture are a furrry yourself

[Xenon]

Wolverine is questionable, because his movie and comic looks are different. the claws might clue somebody in, but I'd probably put him down in the A-list. 9 out of 10 people by your criteria

The Big Four I think are pretty different from the rest, where nearly everyone knows both them and some basic details about them. Wolverine is an incredibly popular character, but I'm not sure if he could get that top billing that the other three could without the X-Men. And without Wolverine, I don't think the X-Men would make that above A-List status either. It's just something I can't decide on really.


Robin, Aquaman, Flash are A-list

I meant to actually get to them, but yeah, Aquaman and Flash are definitely A List. They get pop culture references regularly, even if Aquaman's references are just to mock him Robin I guess would be A list, but I just don't consider him a Seperate property. I guess he has his own book now though doesn't he? Time Drake, that is.

Thor will probably move up to A-list if his movie is a smash


I don't think Starfire, Raven, and Green Arrow are B-list

Starfire and Raven ten years ago would have been definite C-listers, but that Teen Titans cartoon gave their visibility a huge increase. You could probably throw Cyborg and Beast Boy in with them, though maybe not given the bigger bump female heroes get.

As for Green Arrow, I'm not sure which way you'd put him if not B-List. I knew about him before I read comics (and I've never read a comic with him in it), he was in that Fighting Game fifteen years ago, and features prominently in several of the crossover books. He's certainly not identifiable enough (or distinct enough thanks to Hawkeye) to make A-List, but I don't know about bumping him down.


Where would you put people like Blade and Punisher who lots of people know of them but didn't realize they were comic characters?

That's tough. Based just on what I said before I think you'd have to put them at A-List. But they sorta stick out as B-list characters to me.



It's not ridiculous because the A-List is, well, an A-List. It's not easy to get onto it.

I have to disagree with Starfire and Raven being B-list too. My idea of B-list )in terms of "general public" recognizablity) characters is those like Flash, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Aquaman, Cyclops, Prof Xavier etc.

Again, see: Teen Titans cartoon. I didn't read comic at all until two months ago, but I knew about the Teen Titans thanks to that show.

[Ben Smith]

Again, see: Teen Titans cartoon. I didn't read comic at all until two months ago, but I knew about the Teen Titans thanks to that show.

not everybody did though

[Mister Mets]

ITEM #1- Some think that Spider-Man is only a "soap opera" when he's having romantic turmoil. But in an actual soap, there is definitely romance involved but usually other plot threads are thrown in there simultaneously--that is a TRUE soap opera. I NEVER read Spider-Man for his romantic entanglements--if anything, they usually bored me. Hence the term "fembots"--they usually have very little personality and are thrown in there to create artificial "turmoil"...

ITEM #2- Because writing "soap operatics" are much easier than writing good sci-fi! One problem with the post-Lee\Kirby FF is just that, the writers were writing a "super-hero" comic, whereas when Byrne took over, one thing he accomplished was putting SCI-Fi back into the book! (although Doug Moench and Bill Sienkiewicz' black hole story at the end of their mediocre tenure was excellent! Too little, too late!)

ITEM #3- fOR MISTER METS: "What if the FF had been a moderate success?"
I dunno. What if donkeys could fly? What if Carlie Cooper was an interesting character? The bottom line is that the FF WAS a hit and the success of the Torch DID give birth to Spidey! Next...?It's not like the success of the Torch was enough to greenlight an Amazing Spider-Man series.

Stan Lee still introduced the character in the last issue of a cancelled anthology. He would have had the opportunity to do so regardless of how well Fantastic Four sold.

[Leocomix]

Marvel was a small company. They didn't launch a new title without due consideration. Spider-Man is made up of a number of elements. The risky element is "being based on an animal which people fear". The teenage part was already somewhat popular. The Human Torch was a teenager (and the JLA had Snapper Carr).

On soap opera: if some readers aren't interested, that's their right (wrestling may be more to their liking) nevertheless this has been part of Marvel comics early success. Nick Spencer in his last interview speaks a lot about it. Here is a small part:
"We have so few books about relationships. They're a huge part of our lives, but they're usually handled as sub-plots, in a very surface-level way. They're one of the trickiest things to make work in mainstream super hero comics. One of our big goals is to make a great book about a super hero relationship."


And John Byrne put more soap opera in FF than any writer (apart from Lee) before him.