The Bronze Age: the most underappreciated age of comics?

[Buried Alien]

I first became a comic book fan during what is commonly characterized as the "Bronze Age of Comics", circa 1970 - 1986. The camp and silliness of the Silver Age had given way to more sophisticated, more serious storylines (although simple by today's standards). The trappings of the Silver Age remained...the major DC and Marvel characters looked pretty much like they did during the Silver Age, and most of the conventions were still intact (i.e. Barry Allen was the Flash, Dick Grayson was Robin, etc.)...but the stories had a more gritty tone than the previous Silver Age.

I think the Bronze Age is one of the most overlooked eras in comic history. It had its share of bad ideas and cheese, but it also had a pretty high ratio of solid stories backed with consistent, high-quality art.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[T GUy]

I agree with all the above, Buried (except that I'd say the Bronze Age ended in 1978 rather than '86). I would add that the Bronze Age was also the last age in which we were not swamped by superheroes.

It had its share of bad ideas and cheese

The way I look at it is: in the Bronze Age, creators had the freedom to put ideas out there. Some of 'em were good, some of them bad... the bad ones were the price we had to pay to get the good ones.

And I'm not sure I recall any bad ideas in the Bronze Age. Maybe the whole 'the Joker's daughter' business.

it also had a pretty high ratio of solid stories backed with consistent, high-quality art.

Certainly better than the alleged golden age. However, it must be said that a lot of (fan-favourite) Bronze Age art does not hold up very well.

[gentlesatirist]

...the end of the Bronze Age roughly coincides with the ascent of the direct market, when more and more products were marketed solely to superhero fans, resulting in a dearth of non-superhero products.

Market forces and economic realities also conspired - by the end of the Bronze Age - to drive comics even further away from general readers and almost solely into the hands of hardcore fans.

Nevertheless, that's the age I grew up on and the one with which I'm most familiar, so it's got a special place in my heart.


- FE
Wickliffe OH

[Cei-U!]

Any Age that gives us Howard the Duck, Master of Kung Fu, Swamp Thing and Tomb of Dracula can't be all bad.

Cei-U!
I summon the unexpected rush of nostalgia!

[David Porta]

Kaluta Frankenstein at DC. Kaluta Shadow. Robbins Shadow. Kaluta Carson of Venus. Chaykin Cody Starbuck. Thorne Korak. Thorne Red Sonja. Ploog at Marvel: Frankenstein, Werewolf, Ghost Rider. Wrightson Swamp Thing. Wolfman/Colan Dracula. Gerber/Colan Howard the Duck. Thomas/Colan Doctor Strange. Englehart/Brunner Doctor Strange. Englehart/Colan Doctor Strange. Thomas/Kane Warlock. Adams/Giordano Batman. Frank Robbins Batman. Jim Starlin Shang Chi Master of Kung Fu, Warlock, Captain Marvel. Gulacy MoKF. Gene Day MoKF. Byrne Avengers. Byrne Ant-Man. Ditko Starman. Ditko Shade Changing Man. Levitz/Ditko/Wood Stalker. Cuti/Staton E-Man. ...

Aww, it is NOT underappreciated.

I mean, c'mon, how about the *atomic* age? Apart from E.C. and Barks, who lauds *that* age? But it had so much great stuff, Stanley, Marsh, and even non-Dell stuff, like Fiction House American Indian comics and cowboy comics, Romance genre ...

Golden Age and Silver Age rule because they are the original "ages" of comics: the naming of them arose contemporaneously, with the very idea of "ages" in comics history, the idea *of* comics history. Age concept and naming is super-hero -centric. Other genres do not properly fall within the rubric.

[dan bailey]

Certainly better than the alleged golden age. However, it must be said that a lot of (fan-favourite) Bronze Age art does not hold up very well.

such as? not being argumentative here, just curious ...

while i first started sticking my toe into the four-colored inky waters of comicdom toward the end of the silver age, circa '67 or thereabouts, probably 80 percent of the comics i've read fresh off the newsstands in my life were purchased from roughly '73-'78 (my high school years & my first 3 semesters in college).

those ishes are long gone, though, & the relatively few comics i've reacquired since then are slanted heavily toward the silver age (though my last 2 purchases were inhumans 1-12 & the marvel feature ant-man run ...), so i'd probably have to think a little more deeply than i care to at the moment (since i'm, like, at work & stuff) to come up with "(fan-favourite) Bronze Age art [that] does not hold up very well."

[dan bailey]

Kaluta Frankenstein at DC. Kaluta Shadow. Robbins Shadow. Kaluta Carson of Venus. Chaykin Cody Starbuck. Thorne Korak. Thorne Red Sonja. Ploog at Marvel: Frankenstein, Werewolf, Ghost Rider. Wrightson Swamp Thing. Wolfman/Colan Dracula. Gerber/Colan Howard the Duck. Thomas/Colan Doctor Strange. Englehart/Brunner Doctor Strange. Englehart/Colan Doctor Strange. Thomas/Kane Warlock. Adams/Giordano Batman. Frank Robbins Batman. Jim Starlin Shang Chi Master of Kung Fu, Warlock, Captain Marvel. Gulacy MoKF. Gene Day MoKF. Byrne Avengers. Byrne Ant-Man. Ditko Starman. Ditko Shade Changing Man. Levitz/Ditko/Wood Stalker. Cuti/Staton E-Man. ...

a pretty good rundown (though we already know that i'm not much on robbins). lots more occur off the top of my head -- craig russell on war of the worlds, george perez on the avengers & man-wolf, early john byrne on doomsday +1, early mike zeck & don newton (or did they come along a bit later? possibly) & wayne howard on various charlton horror titles, nestor redondo on rima & swamp thing, billy graham (as inked by ... my memory's failing here ... bob mcleod?) on the black panther, don perlin on werewolf by night, val mayerik on thongor & frankenstein monster, the severins on king kull ...

[dan bailey]

And I'm not sure I recall any bad ideas in the Bronze Age.

i'm pretty sure scott shaw! presented a precis on prez in his oddball comics column just a few weeks ago ...

[Slam_Bradley]

Though I came in at the tale end of the Bronze Age, starting buying comics in 1975 and not collecting seriously until 1980 the comics of the 1970's have long been my favorites.

[David Porta]

a pretty good rundown (though we already know that i'm not much on robbins). lots more occur off the top of my head -- craig russell on war of the worlds, george perez on the avengers & man-wolf, early john byrne on doomsday +1, early mike zeck & don newton (or did they come along a bit later? possibly) & wayne howard on various charlton horror titles, nestor redondo on rima & swamp thing, billy graham (as inked by ... my memory's failing here ... bob mcleod?) on the black panther, don perlin on werewolf by night, val mayerik on thongor & frankenstein monster, the severins on king kull ...
Yes! How could I have let Russell on Killraven slip by? Too much information for my mind to bring up all at once, I guess. But *that* one was in my mind to mention. Ah, well.

And yes to those others. And what were Toth and Morrow doing in the 70s? And the ubiquitous Gil Kane - how many good series did he grace in the 70s? Kubert? I don't think of 70s series for those guys, just their presence. Ric Estrada. Kirby. My God, Kirby! Grandenetti. Lots of great stuff in DC anthology titles, war books. Sam Glanzman. The list seems endless. Pat Boyette. ... can't ... too many ...

[T GUy]

Me:it must be said that a lot of (fan-favourite) Bronze Age art does not hold up very well.
Dan Bailey:

such as? not being argumentative here, just curious ...
Much as I don't like getting into these conversations, you have prodded me into stating that Neal Adams and George Perez spring immediately to mind.

[T GUy]

T Guy:
And I'm not sure I recall any bad ideas in the Bronze Age.

Dan Bailey:
i'm pretty sure scott shaw! presented a precis on prez in his oddball comics column just a few weeks ago ...

No, no - read my post again. I said bad ideas.

[founder81]

How can the Bronze Age be underaprciated???

Howard was born and rose to godhood in that time.

The time of Howard.

Golden Age, SIlver Age, the time of Howard.........

The time of Howard has not ended yet...

[gentlesatirist]

...but a lot of the "workhorse"-type artists employed by DC and Marvel in this era - Don Heck, Al Milgrom, George Tuska, Russ Andru, etc. - were just playing out the string at this point. Some of them had better days in their past, and some never had better days at all.

But I guess we should thank them for making the work of Kaluta, Garcia Lopez, Tim Truman, etc., seem all the beter in comparison.


- FE
Wickliffe OH

[dan bailey]

Me:
Dan Bailey:


Much as I don't like getting into these conversations, you have prodded me into stating that Neal Adams and George Perez spring immediately to mind.

i was never the world's biggest perez fan, but as stated above i was pretty taken with his work on the avengers & man-wolf. the inhumans, too, if i'm correctly remembering the credits on several (the first few, i think) of the 12 issues i got just the other day. i have a feeling his excellence (or lack thereof) was even more heavily inker-dependent than is the case with the typical penciller.

adams i've never been overwhelmingly in love with ... too overwrought, or something, though god knows he was influential. seems like he appeared so infrequently, though, that i have a hard time thinking of him as a very prominent feature in the bronze age landscape.

[dan bailey]

Yes! How could I have let Russell on Killraven slip by? Too much information for my mind to bring up all at once, I guess. But *that* one was in my mind to mention. Ah, well.

And yes to those others. And what were Toth and Morrow doing in the 70s? And the ubiquitous Gil Kane - how many good series did he grace in the 70s? Kubert? I don't think of 70s series for those guys, just their presence. Ric Estrada. Kirby. My God, Kirby! Grandenetti. Lots of great stuff in DC anthology titles, war books. Sam Glanzman. The list seems endless. Pat Boyette. ... can't ... too many ...

actually, i was just mentioning the guys who either debuted during the bronze age or at least first came to my attention during that time ...

yeah, kane was all over the place. i suppose morrow spent a lot of time spinning his wheels with red circle (who printed at least one toth story that i can think of in, i think, a later issue of sorcery). even in the short-lived erupton that was atlas, the likes of boyette (whom you mention, though of course most of his stuff came out in charlton's pages) & pat broderick & larry hama & howard nostrand, among others, did some solid work.

alas, just as is the case with frank robbins, i have to part company with you over estrada, kirby (whose delineations hit the skids in my book at the precise moment he left marvel, for some reason) & grandanetti. waaaaay too "cartoonish" for me, somehow ...

[gentlesatirist]

...even in this era can't be overstated. Many artists slavishly imitated him (or at least tried to) and many company execs at both DC and Marvel took his work as the definition of what "good" comic art was supposed to look like. It even affected the "official" versions of characters used in merchandising and advertising.

In some ways, this worked to the detriment of both companies.


- FE
Wickliffe OH

[MDG]

...even in this era can't be overstated. Many artists slavishly imitated him (or at least tried to) and many company execs at both DC and Marvel took his work as the definition of what "good" comic art was supposed to look like...

And the ironic thing was that that definition was "less like comic books." It would be a while--maybe the inception of the "Bruce Timm style"--before "cartoony" elements were allowed back in mainstream comics.

I think the bronze age was the "tipping point" when comics went from a mass medium to a ghettoized "specialty item." A lot of the best stuff (adams, Kaluta, Wrightson) happened at the early bronze age (I've heard people refer to it as late Silver) and appealed more to hardcore fans than "readers."

MDG

[Cei-U!]

Marvel's Philosopy of Art in the Bronze Age: "There is no art so bad it can't be saved by Joe Sinnott."

DC's Philosopy of Art in the Bronze Age: "There is no art so good it can't be ruined by Vince Colletta."

Cei-U!
I summon the ;) !

[MWGallaher]

actually, i was just mentioning the guys who either debuted during the bronze age or at least first came to my attention during that time ...


Well if you're talking about those guys, I can't let this thread go by without bringing up my favorite, Jim Aparo. His first work was barely pre-Bronze Age, at Charlton in 1967, but by 1970 he was getting attention doing magnificent stuff at DC on Aquaman and Phantom Stranger.

[dan bailey]

Well if you're talking about those guys, I can't let this thread go by without bringing up my favorite, Jim Aparo. His first work was barely pre-Bronze Age, at Charlton in 1967, but by 1970 he was getting attention doing magnificent stuff at DC on Aquaman and Phantom Stranger.

y'know, for some reason i remember really, really disliking aparo's '70s stuff, which is all i've ever known him by. & yet i've gone back & been really impressed ... his work doesn't even really *look* like what i remember. i've mentioned elsewhere completely revising my original negative opinions of the highly idiosyncratic likes of pat boyette & tom sutton, but this is a completely different kettle of fish.

maybe the work i remember was marred by a really inappropriate & overbearing inker. can't give any examples, though (it wasn't deliberate, but i don't think i ever collected or even regularly read anything he happened to be handling). i vaguely remember being put off by some of his art on the spectre, i guess in adventure (which i knew only from the newsstands), but the one issue i chanced to check on the gcd just now featured aparo inking himself! who knows?

[Bill Angus]

I don't remember Aparo being inked by anyone but himself on anything - though I certainly could be wrong about that.

[MWGallaher]

You're almost right, Bill...except for one anomalous issue of Aquaman, Aparo did his own inks up until the 80's.
Dan, if your opinion of Aparo was cemented by the Spectre, it may be that you got one of the issues that he inked but didn't pencil! While most of those stories are full Aparo art, he inked a couple that were pencilled by Ernie (Chua) Chan and Frank Thorne. I didn't especially like those myself. Chan did the one where Spec fought some gorillas, Thorne did the one where he fought animated mannikins.

[dan bailey]

Dan, if your opinion of Aparo was cemented by the Spectre, it may be that you got one of the issues that he inked but didn't pencil! While most of those stories are full Aparo art, he inked a couple that were pencilled by Ernie (Chua) Chan and Frank Thorne. I didn't especially like those myself. Chan did the one where Spec fought some gorillas, Thorne did the one where he fought animated mannikins.

could be ... hard to imagine aparo inking thorne, really. i like thorne's red sonja a lot, though offhand i can't think of anything else he did that i might've seen much of (maybe tomahawk, a few years earlier), but i can't see him & aparo meshing at all.

speaking of thorne, was surprised just now, upon checking his pencilling credits on gcd, to see that he did a fair amount of work for gold key back in the day. man, i don't see him fitting the gold key mold (which i happen to like well enough, actually ... i've even started becoming fond of frank bolle) in any way, shape or form.

[MWGallaher]

You can check out three pages of Thorne/Aparo Spectre at this link (milehighcomics.com) (http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=page1&issue=01436986896%20434).


And here's three pages of Chan/Aparo art from the same source (http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=page1&issue=01436986896%20438)!

And finally some pure Aparo! I have the orginal art for this beautiful page! (http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=page3&issue=01436986896%20439)

[gentlesatirist]

...Aparo's style overpowers the artists he's paired with, at least in these examples.

That's great if you're an Aparo fan (and I am), but if you were a Frank Thorne or Ernie Chua fan back in the day, you were probably less than thrilled.

The styles of Aparo and Chua - again, to my eyes, and I'm a major Chua fan - aren't that far apart, but Aparo and Thorne are breeds apart.


- FE
Wickliffe OH

[Scott Shaw!]

speaking of thorne, was surprised just now, upon checking his pencilling credits on gcd, to see that he did a fair amount of work for gold key back in the day. man, i don't see him fitting the gold key mold (which i happen to like well enough, actually ... i've even started becoming fond of frank bolle) in any way, shape or form.

Frank Thorne's Gold Key adaptation of X -- THE MAN WITH THE X-RAY EYES is particularly good, as are his issues of MIGHTY SAMSON (I think he drew the first eight issues or so.)

Aloha,

Scott!

[T GUy]

...Aparo's style overpowers the artists he's paired with, at least in these examples. I think on the Spectre feature in Adventure Comics, the situation was that Aparo was busy and Thorne helped by laying out/pencillin gone story. That is, he wasn't being Frank Thorne, penciller, he was being an assistant or ghost of Aparo's.

[Slam_Bradley]

...Aparo's style overpowers the artists he's paired with, at least in these examples.

That's great if you're an Aparo fan (and I am), but if you were a Frank Thorne or Ernie Chua fan back in the day, you were probably less than thrilled.

The styles of Aparo and Chua - again, to my eyes, and I'm a major Chua fan - aren't that far apart, but Aparo and Thorne are breeds apart.


That was my thought when I looked at those scans. It's been 10+ years since I've read the books and I'd have had no idea that it wasn't full Aparo art. I can see subtle differences, but without the credits I'm not sure I could tell that it wasn't Aparo alone.

[MWGallaher]

Agreed--Aparo never really worked much as "just" an inker, so it's no surprise that he wasn't particularly good at submerging his style (besides these examples, I can recall him inking Joe Staton, Rich Buckler, and John Calnan on a few issues of Brave and Bold, a couple of pages of Sal Amendola on DC's hunger relief special, and some 5 or 6 other pencillers--including Frank Miller!--on Batman and the Outsiders Annuals). I've studied Aparo all my life, so the difference between his solo work and these Thorne and Chan issues are glaringly obvious to me, but a casual reader of his work would likely detect Aparo long before the pencillers on these two Adventure Comics.

But I wouldn't feel so sorry for the Thorne and Chan fans of the day, as they probably weren't looking for either of those artists in these pages. However, the Spectre readers were accustomed to Aparo, and I know I was grateful that, on those occasions where Jim couldn't pencil it, he got to lay his inks on the pages. It gives the series an overall consistency that will make the upcoming collection of the series look better.

And there's one small bit of additional consistency about that series that always impressed me--in Thorne's issue, there's a scene set in Jim Corrigan's apartment. A couple of issues later, when Aparo's pencilling again, we return to the apartment--and guess what? Same furniture, same arrangement! How often do you see that kind of attention to set detail in a single issue, much less across a several-issue gap?

[T GUy]

MWG: the Spectre readers were accustomed to Aparo, and I know I was grateful that, on those occasions where Jim couldn't pencil it, he got to lay his inks on the pages. See also the Adams/Kubert drawn issue of Star-Spangled War Stories.

[MWGallaher]

Yeah, the Adams/Kubert pages were nice...and Murray Boltinoff did the same thing on Teen Titans; when Nick Cardy couldn't pencil it, he'd ink...I remember at least once when he got top credit over the actual penciller (Tuska maybe? or Sekowsky?), which struck me as unusual.

[dan bailey]

Yeah, the Adams/Kubert pages were nice...and Murray Boltinoff did the same thing on Teen Titans; when Nick Cardy couldn't pencil it, he'd ink...I remember at least once when he got top credit over the actual penciller (Tuska maybe? or Sekowsky?), which struck me as unusual.

gotta stop reading before i'm really awake ... for a second there i thought you said that *murray boltinoff* would take over the inking duties himself when nick cardy wasn't available. of course, if *henry b* had handled the inks, that would've been pretty interesting.

[matewan1990]

I thought Joe Gill and John Byrne on Doomsday+1 was one of the best comics serieses ever and Byrne's art on that book caused me to pick up his work on Marvel Team-Up and Uncanny X-Men in the 1970s and then his Fantastic Four issues. The Perez Avengers were great, as were the Perez Justice League of America issues and then his New Teen Titans. Tomb of Dracula was scary to a young child, but I read them anyway. Superman had that beautiful Curt Swan artwork, but I didn't appreciate it until much later. Aparo was doing his best work on Brave and the Bold. Starlin's Warlock and Captain Marvel took me and a lot more readers to the stars and into realms that were previously unimaginable. Wrightson's Swamp Thing had a creepy, slimy feel to it, but it was the best book of its time. Swamp Thing was still good under the creative talents of Nestor Redondo. Challengers of the Unknown by Keith Giffen and John Celardo was awesome. Grell and Cockrum both did super runs on Legion of Super-Heroes. Kurt Schaffenberger's Shazam! and New Adventures of Superboy was a fun romp. Ploog's Ghost Rider, Frankenstein's Monster and Werewolf By Night were frightening. His and Gerber's Man-Thing was a touching tale, especially the one about the clown committing suicide. I loved Ric Estrada and Jerry Grandenetti long after I read their work in the Bronze Age. Then, it was way too loose and cartoony. The Warren stuff was way over my head at that time, although I loved sneaking a look at each issue of Vampirella for obvious reasons. Star Hunters and Freedom Fighters were brief but fun. Unexpected was a horrific title, as were the houses of Mystery and Secrets. Time Warp was way ahead of its time in both writing and art. Captain America fighting Dr. Faustus made believe there were still Nazi supporters running around in America. Iron Man by Layton and Romita Jr. was gorgeous. Master of Kung Fu was the best comic, maybe ever, especially after Gene Day took over pencils and inks. Dick Dillin and Frank McGlaughlin on Justice League of America gave that title personality. The Korvac Saga and the Wundagore adventure in Avengers were both amazing to read. Defenders by Don Perlin was great and it just got better into the early 1980s. Daredevil by Roger McKenzie, Frank Miller and Klaus Janson was my favorite title at that time. Bruce Jones' and Brent Anderson's Ka-Zar was as savage as Roy Thomas' and John Buscema's Conan the Barbarian.
But, through it all, the one company that kept me on the edge of my seat and devouring as much of its titles as possible was Charlton. Tom Sutton, Pat Boyette, Steve Ditko, Joe Staton, Rich Larson, Wayne Howard, John Byrne, Mike Zeck, Bob Hall and many, many others were the best stable of artists since the EC days. Charlton horror books were the best and they are truly the ECs of the Bronze Age.

[Bill Angus]

Yeah, the Adams/Kubert pages were nice...and Murray Boltinoff did the same thing on Teen Titans; when Nick Cardy couldn't pencil it, he'd ink...I remember at least once when he got top credit over the actual penciller (Tuska maybe? or Sekowsky?), which struck me as unusual.

Yeah, Cardy definately got top credit over Tuska on Titans when they collaborated. I don't remember whether that happened when Cardy inked Neal Adams or Gil Kane on the book, though.

I don't think it was all that unusual in the day... I've seen lots of examples of that (which used to... okay - still can) confuse the hell out of me. One example I came across recently was in the latest CBA - a Chaykin pencilled story, inked by Grey Morrow, but credited 'Grey Morroe, Howard Chaykin'.

Maybe it was meant to indicate how much the inker was bringing to the final pages? The pencils were more of a breakdown-quality, and the inker was acting more actively in the embellisher role?

[T GUy]

"Starlin's Warlock and Captain Marvel took me and a lot more readers to the stars and into realms that were previously unimaginable." - Michael Browning

Hadn't these realms previously been imagined by Jack Kirby?

[gentlesatirist]

Wow...Michael Browning's comment about regarding Charlton's horror books as "the ECs of the Bronze Age" might be hard to back up. In my memory, the art was good in spots, but a lot of the stories were wholly derivative, lacking the spark and originality that set the 50s ECs apart in the first place.

To be fair, Charlton comics suffered from terrible production values in those days, making a lot of their comics fairly muddy-looking. I think at times this can affect our perceptions.


- FE
Wickliffe OH

[matewan1990]

"Starlin's Warlock and Captain Marvel took me and a lot more readers to the stars and into realms that were previously unimaginable." - Michael Browning

Hadn't these realms previously been imagined by Jack Kirby?

Kirby didn't even come close to taking readers on the journey that Starlin did. Starlin took Warlock and Captain Marvel on introspective adventures into their own minds and took Captain Marvel on the last journey of his life. Did Kirby ever take the Fantastic Four on a trip into their own minds, questioning their beliefs, using the split personality aspect to create a great villain, or make any of his characters martyrs?
Did Kirby give Captain Marvel his cosmic awareness or did Kirby even think up something so grand? I mean, Kirby may have co-created the power cosmic with Stan Lee, but did he go to such lengths to bestow the characters with the powers as Starlin did with Captain Marvel?
And did Kirby ever sacrifice a great character like Warlock to benefit a story? Or Captain Marvel? I don't think so.
And my statement on Charlton being the ECs of the Bronze Age holds true to a lot of readers and collectors these days. Check any comic market report and you'll see how Charltons are getting hotter and hotter as more and more people discover the artists who worked on Charltons.
Believe me, it took some years for ECs to catch on after they'd been cancelled for them to become so popular.
Charltons had great stories and art. Sure, the printing process was cheap, but that's not enough to hinder a Charlton fan's love of those comics.

[T GUy]

Kirby didn't even come close to taking readers on the journey that Starlin did.

Cough! Splutter!

Starlin took Warlock and Captain Marvel on introspective adventures into their own minds
As Kirby had done in Mr Miracle 8 ('The Battle of the Id').


and took Captain Marvel on the last journey of his life. Did Kirby ever take the Fantastic Four on a trip into their own minds, questioning their beliefs, using the split personality aspect to create a great villain,

Split personality? The Hulk and Orion are probably the two most obvious examples.

or make any of his characters martyrs?

Isn't Himon martyred several times in 'Himon,' Mr Miracle 9?

Did Kirby give Captain Marvel his cosmic awareness or did Kirby even think up something so grand?

Kirby thought up many things more grand than 'cosmic awareness.' Plus many things more meaningful.

I mean, Kirby may have co-created the power cosmic with Stan Lee, but did he go to such lengths to bestow the characters with the powers as Starlin did with Captain Marvel?

No. I think he was more interested in how people used their power(s) than in how they aquired 'em. Just zap the blighters with radiation and have done with it.

And did Kirby ever sacrifice a great character like Warlock to benefit a story? Or Captain Marvel? I don't think so.

No, I don't recall Jack Kirby killing off anyone else's characters.

Kirby didn't even come close to taking readers on the journey that Starlin did.

No. Kirby took you on a journey across the infinite to an unknown, unknowable destination, a journey on which one viewed the nature of humanity. Starlin took you on a journey round the corner in a starship.

[T GUy]

my statement on Charlton being the ECs of the Bronze Age holds true to a lot of readers and collectors these days. Check any comic market report and you'll see how Charltons are getting hotter and hotter

Your statement holds true to collectors but not readers.

However, as far as it goes your statement is correct. Charlton were the last publishers to primarilly or only publish anthology series (and, though this is an inverted EC comparison, the last to give up romance anthologies).

Sudden extraneous thought: what if EC had added a new romance title in 1950?

Well, at least it'd've provided balance to all the goings-on in Vault... and Crime...

[gentlesatirist]

...of collectors vs. readers. The Charlton horror books may be getting attention because some big dealers get quoted in an Overstreet Guide as saying "Charlton horrors are hot!"
(I don't know if this has happened, just basing it on similar examples cited by others.)

Translation : "I've got 20 longboxes of Charlton horror in my storeroom. How do I move this stuff?"

Unlike EC, Charlton horror was never a big seller. Yes, I know several of their titles lasted a decade or so, but this is likely a result of Charlton having the lowest printing costs (they did their own books) and creative pay rates (a fraction of Marvel and DC) in the industry. Their books didn't have to sell all that much to turn a decent profit.

If I recall, most of the Charlton horrors debuted in the early 70s around the same time DC and Marvel hopped back in to take advantage of relaxed Comics Code restrictions. (15 years after Wertham published Seduction of the Innocent, which led to the Code, American youth remained troubled and imperfect.) Yes, they had some swell art at times, but the same could be said of the DC horror titles which lingered well into the 80s.


- FE
Wickliffe OH

[Slam_Bradley]

Unlike EC, Charlton horror was never a big seller. Yes, I know several of their titles lasted a decade or so, but this is likely a result of Charlton having the lowest printing costs (they did their own books) and creative pay rates (a fraction of Marvel and DC) in the industry. Their books didn't have to sell all that much to turn a decent profit.


I think this was a huge factor in Charlton remaining in comics for as long as they did. I don't have any experience in publishing, but I do know that in a number of other manufacturing areas, it is more expensive to shut the machinery down and then bring it back on-line than to keep running and sell for a minimal profit.

I can say that when I was buying comics in the late 70's through the mid 80's off spinner racks in grocery and drug stores, I can remember seeing barely any Charlton books on the racks. Now, that may be because I wasn't looking for them, but you'd think they'd stick in my mind. The only Charltons I remember buying were a few issues of The Phantom.

[gentlesatirist]

...reveals that there were more Charlton horror titles than I recalled from my late 70s-present comics buying. A brief list :

Haunted (aka Baron Weirwulf's Haunted Library) : 75 issues, 1971-84
Ghost Manor : 96 issues, 1968-84
Monster Hunters : 18 issues, 1975-79
Beyond the Grave : 17 issues, 1975-76 and 1983-84
Ghostly Haunts : 39 issues, 1971-78
Ghostly Tales : 114 issues (!), 1966-84
Haunted Love : 11 issues, 1973-75
Many Ghosts of Dr. Graves : 72 issues, 1967-82
Midnight Tales : 18 issues, 1972-76
Scary Tales : 46 issues, 1975-84
Professor Coffin : 3 issues, 1985-86

[gentlesatirist]

...I found about 20 cases where Charlton re-used covers (and I'm assuming content) for various titles over their publishing history, sometimes wwithin the same title, sometimes on others. For example, the cover of Midnight Tales #1 was used 3 times.

If this holds up for the contents of these books, I'd imagine there's about 300 issues of content spread across the 500 issues listed above.

And some of the color on these covers was pure mud. I agree with the above point that it shouldn't matter as to the inside content, but speaking from personal history, many of these covers looked so bad they discouraged readers from even picking them up as they spun their way through the spinner racks.


- FE

[gentlesatirist]

...I think Starlin drew sci-fi comics the way sci-fi fans thought they should look - more clean and stylized and detailed - while Kirby drew sci-fi comics the way comics fans thought they should look - big and impressionistic with an emphasis on movement.

Preference in this area usually indicates what your position was before you opened the comic in question.

And while we're on Starlin, let me just add that his work on DC Comics Presents - issues 26-29 and 36 (Superman teaming with Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Supergirl, the Spectre and the 80s Starman) - ranks among the best of his career, although it's consistently overlooked.


- FE

[Sir Tim Drake]

I think this was a huge factor in Charlton remaining in comics for as long as they did. I don't have any experience in publishing, but I do know that in a number of other manufacturing areas, it is more expensive to shut the machinery down and then bring it back on-line than to keep running and sell for a minimal profit.

This is precisely true. In one of the Charlton issues of CBA, it says that Charlton had its own printing presses, which were shut down only twice a year so that they could be cleaned. The rest of the time, the printing presses had to be continuously in operation, and that's why Charlton published so many comics. I'll look for the exact quote on that if you want.

[Slam_Bradley]

This is precisely true. In one of the Charlton issues of CBA, it says that Charlton had its own printing presses, which were shut down only twice a year so that they could be cleaned. The rest of the time, the printing presses had to be continuously in operation, and that's why Charlton published so many comics. I'll look for the exact quote on that if you want.

That's ok, Tim/Aaron. I read those issues and I think that was what I was channeling. It does explain how, with spotty distribution and sometimes inferior product, they kept publishing for so long. Not to take anything away from Charlton, because some of their stuff was great, but a lot of it was at best mediocre, and the production values were pretty inferior.

[matewan1990]

...I think Starlin drew sci-fi comics the way sci-fi fans thought they should look - more clean and stylized and detailed - while Kirby drew sci-fi comics the way comics fans thought they should look - big and impressionistic with an emphasis on movement.

Preference in this area usually indicates what your position was before you opened the comic in question.

And while we're on Starlin, let me just add that his work on DC Comics Presents - issues 26-29 and 36 (Superman teaming with Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Supergirl, the Spectre and the 80s Starman) - ranks among the best of his career, although it's consistently overlooked.


- FE

I agree. Starlin's work at DC after he left Marvel in the late 1970s and into the early 1980s before he returned to Marvel for Death of Captain Marvel is some of the best of his career. Now, not all of the inkers were great Starlin inkers, but his work was beautiful during those days. His covers on Weird Western were also a high point. I loved those. There was also a Justice League of America cover with giant Darkseid standing with small heroes flying around him. I don't remember the number of the comic, but that is one of my favorite covers. My dad bought me that one off the spinner rack at our local grocery store, folded it and put it in his back pocket. But, no matter, I loved it anyway.
Everyone can have their opinions on Starlin and Kirby. Just because I think Starlin's work was innovative and others, like T Guy, think Kirby was the innovator and not Starlin, doesn't mean either of us is wrong. It's an opinion, plain and simple.

[gentlesatirist]

...did Starlin do?

He also did cover and interior art for DC Comics Presents 37 (Superman/Hawkgirl).

The "big Darkseid" JLA cover you're thinking of is issue 185, which I think is from 1980.


- FE

[kramden]

...Aparo's style overpowers the artists he's paired with, at least in these examples.

That's great if you're an Aparo fan (and I am), but if you were a Frank Thorne or Ernie Chua fan back in the day, you were probably less than thrilled.

The styles of Aparo and Chua - again, to my eyes, and I'm a major Chua fan - aren't that far apart, but Aparo and Thorne are breeds apart.


- FE
Wickliffe OH

i met Ernie chau/chan at a comic book convention when i was a kid in the mid 70`s.He signed some books of mine(i thinkConan if in not mistaken)Al Milgrem and Alen Kupperberg were also there...what ever happened to Ernie/Chau/Chan?

[matewan1990]

i met Ernie chau/chan at a comic book convention when i was a kid in the mid 70`s.He signed some books of mine(i thinkConan if in not mistaken)Al Milgrem and Alen Kupperberg were also there...what ever happened to Ernie/Chau/Chan?

Sadly, Ernie Chua/Chan died in the late 1990s. His real name was Chan, although when he came to America, or so the story goes, his name was changed because of an error on his paperwork.
And Starlin did at least the cover art to Weird Western Tales 45, because I owned the original cover art at one time. I think he did 44, too. Beautiful Scalphunter covers.

[Sir Tim Drake]

Sadly, Ernie Chua/Chan died in the late 1990s. His real name was Chan, although when he came to America, or so the story goes, his name was changed because of an error on his paperwork.
And Starlin did at least the cover art to Weird Western Tales 45, because I owned the original cover art at one time. I think he did 44, too. Beautiful Scalphunter covers.

In Comic Book Artist vol. 2 #4, David Roach writes that Ernie Chan "adopt[ed] the supposedly less ethnically Chinese name Chua," although he doesn't specify when or why. I remember that on the old boards, Mark Evanier explained Ernie Chan/Chua's name change in more detail, but now I've forgotten the explanation.

I didn't realize he was dead, though. That's very sad news.

[steeler80]

This is the era that I grew up with so it's my favorite. My opinions are completely biased. I just think this is the perfect mix of the lighter silver age approach and the later deconstructionist approach. Comics were darker and grittier in tone but not to the point of just being downright depressing. It was the best of both worlds in my opinion.

[gentlesatirist]

...of Chua's passing, even though it occurred several years ago. There goes my chance of meeting the man someday and letting him know how much I enjoyed his work as a kid and continue to enjoy it today.

The many covers he drew for DC in the 70s had a major impact on me, as far as the type and style of comic art I would come to enjoy. They were bold and well-designed, like Adams with just a touch more cartoonishness to them, which, to me at least, was an improvement.


- FE
Wickliffe OH

[gentlesatirist]

...an incomplete Ernie Chua checklist, but I think he did most of the covers of these books during these runs :

JLA 123-137
Detective 447-467
Batman 264-282
World's Finest 229-240
Plastic Man 13-15
Super-Team Family 4-6
Joker 3-9
Batman Family 2-8
Freedom Fighters 1-3
Four-Star Spectacular 1-6
Action 451-465
Superman 291-306

That's about 130 covers over a 5-year period in the mid-to-late 1970s, and I'm sure I'm missing a bunch. Historically on DC covers, Chua seems like the link between Adams/Cardy and Buckler/Garcia-Lopez.


- FE

[gentlesatirist]

...numbered about 100, primarily on Conan, Savage Sword of Conan, Incredible Hulk and Master of Kung Fu.


- FE

[MWGallaher]

Let's hold off on the Chan memorials until we get better confirmation...I find it hard to believe he could have died in the last decade without significant notice...maybe the previous poster was thinking of Alfredo Alcala (who did die a few years ago)?

[InfoBroker]

I thought his real name was Chau, and he was initially blessed with the Chan designation by an American emmigration worker, who misunderstood the spelling and/or pronunciation.

I think it was that order anyway.

-jb the ib :cool:

[gentlesatirist]

...that an immigration worker changed it to Chua because there were "too many Chans."


- FE

[Rob Allen]

The Ernie Chan memorials are indeed premature. A man named Ernie Chan died in the 1990's but it seems not to have been "our" Ernie Chan. Several people on the GCD Chat list and some RE Howard comics groups are looking for him right now. There's an unsubstantiated rumor that he's working as a security guard.

I'll let you know if they find him.

[Rob Allen]

Someone at the conan.com message board tracked down Ernie Chan. He's retired, living in the Philippines, and spends his time tending his garden. He's not interested in drawing any more comics. He was in the US recently for the opening of Tony deZuniga's new restaurant in Stockton, CA.

[dan bailey]

Someone at the conan.com message board tracked down Ernie Chan. He's retired, living in the Philippines, and spends his time tending his garden. He's not interested in drawing any more comics. He was in the US recently for the opening of Tony deZuniga's new restaurant in Stockton, CA.

what sort of restaurant(s) does dezuniga have? any examples of his art on the walls?

[Sir Tim Drake]

Someone at the conan.com message board tracked down Ernie Chan. He's retired, living in the Philippines, and spends his time tending his garden. He's not interested in drawing any more comics. He was in the US recently for the opening of Tony deZuniga's new restaurant in Stockton, CA.

That's good news. I'm glad to hear that the reports of his death were premature.

If he's as skilled at gardening as he is at cartooning, then his garden must be quite a sight to see.

[MWGallaher]

I thought his real name was Chau, and he was initially blessed with the Chan designation by an American emmigration worker, who misunderstood the spelling and/or pronunciation.

I think it was that order anyway.

-jb the ib :cool:

No, I think you have it backwards...his actual name is Chan, but there were "too many Chans" when he immigrated, and the helpful US officials made him a Chua instead. If you'll recall, he worked at DC first as "Ernie Chua", but went back to his real name of "Ernie Chan" in the later days of his US comics career at Marvel.

[gentlesatirist]

My fleeting hopes of someday meeting the man remain alive...


- FE

[Shellhead]

I loved the Bronze Age. So many wild ideas, like the weirdness of the Defenders, the post-apocalyptic Killraven, the proto-cyberpunk of Deathlok, Dr. Strange in that Brunner phase, Starlin's cosmic Warlock, the tangled relationships and philosophical musings of Master of Kung Fu, the social commentary of Green Lantern/Green Arrow, the unusual viewpoint of Tomb of Dracula. Wow!

And there were so many talented artists. I loved, in no special order: Gene Day, Jim Starlin, George Perez, John Byrne, Paul Gulacy, Neal Adams, Frank Brunner, Frank Miller, Bernie Wrightson, Jim Steranko, Dave Cockrum, Jim Aparo, P. Craig Russell, Val Mayerik, Grey Morrow, Tim Truman and Barry Windsor-Smith. (But that's just me, I know realize that some people would put Ross Andru, Frank Robbins and Sal Buscema on their list of favorites. ;) To each their own.)

[Shellhead]

I've been thinking again about the Bronze Age of Comics recently. While there is a lack of consensus about when it began and ended, I think we have a general feel for the Bronze Age. And now I have a possibly original angle on one defining characteristic that marked the end of the Bronze Age.

The Golden Age, compared to later eras, was magical, literally magical. Look at the first super-hero group of that era, the Justice Society of America. All of the heavy hitters on that team had magical powers: Green Lantern and his magic ring, Spectre as powerful ghost, and Johnny Thunder with his magic thunderbolt. While I lack much exposure to the Golden Age comics, the issues I have read were more likely to show a magical threat or problem facing the heroes, as opposed to an alien or high-tech or psionic challenge.

The Silver Age seemed much more focused on science-fiction elements, probably due to the decline of pulp fiction and the rise of science-fiction books. The Justice League of America's founding line-up included two aliens (Superman and Martian Manhunter), an Atlantean, a forensic scientist, and a guy with a high-tech alien ring. One of their first recruits was physicist. Silver Age adventures featured more alien races, strange planets, time travel, and weird science than the Golden Age.

So what of the Bronze Age? I think that it had a nice mixture of fantasy and science-fiction elements, often working side-by-side. The Defenders featured several magic-oriented characters, working alongside the gamma-ray induced Hulk and alien powerhouse Silver Surfer. For every monster title like Dracula or Werewolf by Night, there seemed to be a science-fiction title like Killraven or Deathlok.

After the Bronze Age (and I realize that the cutoff is highly debateable, but I think we can all agree that the Bronze Age is over), I feel that comics have retreated somewhat from both fantasy and science-fiction elements. The strictly magic characters have been less successful, and the same is true of the high-tech (Iron Man) or alien (Silver Surfer). Instead, there is a greater focus on the mundane, like guns or claws (Punisher, Wolverine) or mutations... which is sort of science-fiction, but less overtly so than other elements like time travel. At the same time, other traditional elements have been downplayed, like costumes and secret identities.

[Reptisaurus!]

So what of the Bronze Age? I think that it had a nice mixture of fantasy and science-fiction elements, often working side-by-side. The Defenders featured several magic-oriented characters, working alongside the gamma-ray induced Hulk and alien powerhouse Silver Surfer. For every monster title like Dracula or Werewolf by Night, there seemed to be a science-fiction title like Killraven or Deathlok.

After the Bronze Age (and I realize that the cutoff is highly debateable, but I think we can all agree that the Bronze Age is over), I feel that comics have retreated somewhat from both fantasy and science-fiction elements. The strictly magic characters have been less successful, and the same is true of the high-tech (Iron Man) or alien (Silver Surfer). Instead, there is a greater focus on the mundane, like guns or claws (Punisher, Wolverine) or mutations... which is sort of science-fiction, but less overtly so than other elements like time travel. At the same time, other traditional elements have been downplayed, like costumes and secret identities.

Interesting analysis, Shellhead.

I'd characterize the realism of the "Bronze Age" (Or, as I prefer to call it, the "seventies,") by three factors.

(1) An increase in "realism," as you noted; Even the science and magic-type characters tended to end up dealing with more down-to-earth problems, either actually (O'Neil/Adams Green Arrow) or metaphorically (Engelhart's Doctor Strange, which deals with conciousness raising and finding the "true" self.)

(2) A DECREASE in whimsy (Sugar and Spike, Leave it to Binky) and ironic distance between the writers and the material at Marvel and DC. (Think Stan Lee's Marvel narration, or Bob Haney's Titans.) This might be due to the first wave of fans-turned pro.


(3) Monsters.

[websbestcomics]

I'm knee deep in the bronze age at the moment, with my latest web comic,
Champion Of A Lost Universe (http://www.websbestcomics.com):

http://www.websbestcomics.com/champion/episodes/coalu_new.jpg

Hope you like!

Scott Reed
www.websbestcomics.com (http://www.websbestcomics.com)

[The Wayner]

Scott: There ain't no hoping to it! Thanks for sharing your cool link!

That's a definite bookmarked page, indeed... :cool:

[founder81]

Instead, there is a greater focus on the mundane, like guns or claws (Punisher, Wolverine) or mutations... which is sort of science-fiction, but less overtly so than other elements like time travel. At the same time, other traditional elements have been downplayed, like costumes and secret identities.

You make some good points about the different comics ages, but I think the section quoted above is a good synopsis of the current age of comics.

[scratchie]

If I can wear my amateur-pop-historian hat for a moment here...

Two things strike me as "key" about the Bronze Age.

First, it was the time when comics started taking themselves seriously. Stan Lee would no doubt argue that he was making more "realistic" comics in the 60s, but his idea of realism was strictly TV-sitcom realism: Reed Richards complains that his wife is spending too much money shopping; Peter Parker gets hassled by Flash Thompson, etc. In the 70s, comics were starting to deal with serious real-life issues like drug addiction (most famously) and laying the groundwork for the "gritty" style of comics that would later follow in the footsteps of "Dark Knight" and "Watchment".

Second, it occurred to me yesterday that the first Overstreet Comic Price Guide came out in 1970. Someone else pointed out that 1978 marks the approximate beginning of comics specialty shops. Obviously there were some in existence earlier than that, but by the end of the 70s, it's clear that comics had made a transition (for better or for worse) from disposable kids' entertainment to "collectible" and were now being read by an older audience. (Obviously some adults were reading comics in the 60s, or earlier, but I think the 70s marked the major shift.)

The end result of this is, of course, the more "mature" comics of today. Someone was lamenting on one of the "Infinite Crisis" boards that there are hardly any mainstream superhero comics anymore that would be suitable to give to a 10-year-old (other than the lines that are specifically marketed to kids, which aren't really "suitable" for adults). The Bronze Age, I think, marks the end of the period when the same comics could really be enjoyed (at different levels) by kids and adults.

[MDG]

The end result of this is, of course, the more "mature" comics of today. Someone was lamenting on one of the "Infinite Crisis" boards that there are hardly any mainstream superhero comics anymore that would be suitable to give to a 10-year-old (other than the lines that are specifically marketed to kids, which aren't really "suitable" for adults). The Bronze Age, I think, marks the end of the period when the same comics could really be enjoyed (at different levels) by kids and adults.
It also starts the direction of comics being by-fans, for-fans, although at the end of the 70s you could still pick up an issue of a book you didn't buy regularly and still get an idea of what was going on. After Crisis, this was pretty much gone.

MDG

[shaxper]

It's difficult to appreciate the bronze age now because it's the middle step; neither as simplistic and innocent as the Silver Age nor as complex and jaded as the Modern Age and beyond. But I thoroughly agree with the sentiment that's been made several times in this thread. it marks the begining of complexity and maturity in comics, from Green Lantern discovering he's ethnically biased, to Speedy and Harry Osbourne having drug problems, Gwen Stacey dying, and Phoenix turning into a savage, evil goddess. Yet this was before the big companies decided to cash in on these tragedies, killing or drastically changing characters on an almost monthly basis for no reason other than to sell more comics. In the bronze age, such shocking changes were done well and were usually justified.

I think the bronze age was a little rough around the edges because their were still so many dinosaurs in the industry left from the Silver Age, many of which couldn't or wouldn't adapt their skills to the new direction comics were taking. Had the talent been more even, I think the Bronze Age might have been my favorite age in comics. Certainly the balance between innocence and maturity seemed perfect. These days, too many heroes sound too much like anti-heroes. Then again, I'm the guy rooting for Earth 2 in Infinite Crisis.

The bronze age also seems to mark a stronger desire to maintain a coherant continuity (at least at Marvel). While Marvel had always somewhat adhered to continuity, we begin to see new stories referencing old ones and characters experiencing more long term changes as the result of their past experiences.

Oh yes, and there were the non-traditional comic titles that stuck around and developed cult followings (early harbingers of the indy craze in the 1980s): Conan, Tomb of Dracula, Howard the Duck, Cerebus, etc.