Marvel's ARTIST architects...are meh. Who are DC's?

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

So Marvel revealed their artist architects (ala their real, read: writer, architects a few months back). http://comics.ign.com/articles/115/1156616p1.html

They are: John Romita Jr., Mike Deodato, Stuart Immonen, Salvador Larroca, Humberto Ramos, and Mark Bagley. I've thought in recent years Marvel had the top-heavy quality of artist, but DC had the great depth of artists. More on that later. But it appears to me Marvel has misplaced their value on their artists... Ramos? Larroca? Even Bagley... By no means sub-par artists, but architects of the Marvel Universe?? This brings up a couple questions from me...

1. Like Desaad's architect thread regarding writers, who do you think are DC's "art architects"? I like clean numbers, like 5. I'd say Reis, Mahnke, Quitely, Manapul easily with JWIII, Jimenez, Frazier Irving, Gary Frank, Finch, Andy Kubert, Van Sciver, Pasarin, CAFU, or Gleason vying for that 5th spot...hell even Nicola Scott, Cinar, Asrar, Ryan Benjamin or Cameron Stewart could be up there if given the chance. To me, those first 4 mentioned outweigh the 6 Marvel listed as theirs.

2. ...where's Coipel? is this good news for DC fans? From my understanding, he left DC on bad terms, but...I don't know. This news gives me some hope he could be looking for a different shade of green pastures. He's perhaps the best artist out there, imo. If DC could somehow snag him up, I'd be very happy. =D Also, I like Epting and Bachalo a lot and Ramos somehow got mentioned over them. So perhaps something is up...hell, even Yu didn't get listed...

Your thoughts?

[Ned McDodd]

DC has some top talents like Finch, Williams III or Gary Frank, but they are all not really fast with their work, so that limits their impact on DC comics imo, at least in the short term. Of course there is still Jim Lee ;)

[Theozilla]

I would say, based on my limited knowledge, that DC has more variety in their artists, but the really tip top talent are also some of the slowest ones.

[theloupgaroukid]

This architects distinction is more of a marketing tool than it is some sort of declaration of artistic merit. Ramos is on there because he is illustrating Spider-Man and they are gearing up for a big summer storyline. Larroca because of Iron Man, etc., etc.

My favourite Marvel artists (who I wish never left DC) are Pasquel Ferry, Ed McGuinness, and Renato Guedes.

To me, DC's list would be the artists with the highest profile assignments- Doug Mahnke, David Finch, Andy Kubert, Yannick Paquette, and the new guy on Action Comics, Kenneth Rocafort.

[Genki Sudo]

Nyguen, Irving, Kollins( is he still under contract? ) and Gleason. That's it for me

Honorable mention to Sook & JPL

[Fatguy]

This architects distinction is more of a marketing tool than it is some sort of declaration of artistic merit. Ramos is on there because he is illustrating Spider-Man and they are gearing up for a big summer storyline. Larroca because of Iron Man, etc., etc.

Exactly. They're named "Architects" because the books they're currently drawing are Marvel's high profile properties.

So by comparison, the "Architects" of the DCU are the guys who are currently drawing the flagship books. Which, for the life of me, I dont know which books DC considers their flagships anymore.

Green Lantern, definitely....after that I have no idea. Action Comics? Batman? Is Justice Society still selling well? My disappointment in DC's overall product at the moment is clouding my vision lol

[carabas]

I just think that it's a bit odd, calling the artists architects. It's the writers who design the 'building'.
John Romita Jr., Mike Deodato, Stuart Immonen, Salvador Larroca, Humberto Ramos, and Mark Bagley, they're Marvel's interior decorators.
Bendis, Fraction, and Brubaker (and Slott, I suppose) are the architects.

[Darrell D.]

First time a list with John Romita Jr., Mike Deodato and Stuart Immonen
was summed up as 'meh'.
Those guys are complete opposite of 'meh'.

[Ilash]

I really don't get this whole "architects" thing but DC clearly has loads of top-notch artistic talent. I kind of don't know what else to say about it but that.

[Bob-el]

Exactly. They're named "Architects" because the books they're currently drawing are Marvel's high profile properties.

So by comparison, the "Architects" of the DCU are the guys who are currently drawing the flagship books. Which, for the life of me, I dont know which books DC considers their flagships anymore.

Green Lantern, definitely....after that I have no idea. Action Comics? Batman? Is Justice Society still selling well? My disappointment in DC's overall product at the moment is clouding my vision lol

Even if you identify DC's flagship, it may not help identify their art architects because they change artists on some of them a lot using different artists for different story arcs. I may be playing from a little bit behind the curve but I would think you would have to include Quitely and Van Skiver because they have done so much of DC's most popular work in recent years. I would throw in Kollins because I've seen him on a couple of different titles in recent years and would also consider McDaniel for the same reason. I could see an argument for Franks based on the Superman work and Manapul although he strikes me as more of a Young Gun type. With three GL titles, you could pull anybody working on them and slap an architect title on them -most noteably Manhke and Reis. With the diversity of Batman titles it is harder to focus on just one or two but since Daniels has the core Batman title I would count him in.

So I think my list- if it needs to be a list of six -would be Van Skiver, Quitely, Manhke, Kollins, Daniels and Franks.

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

This architects distinction is more of a marketing tool than it is some sort of declaration of artistic merit.

Exactly. They're named "Architects" because the books they're currently drawing are Marvel's high profile properties.

Yeah, I understand that. But Marvel has the power to move their talent around for these high profile properties. I mean, isn't Bagley on an Ultimate book? Should that count for Marvel's "architecture"? And again, no Coipel? Isn't he supposed to be on the new Thor? I just find it a bit odd (I suppose) they left out some big guns like Coipel and Yu...Dodson, even. Heck, I think Will Conrad is better than half that list. Marvel could've included whoever they wanted and just moved them to whatever book they consider under this "architecture" approach.


I just think that it's a bit odd, calling the artists architects. It's the writers who design the 'building'.
John Romita Jr., Mike Deodato, Stuart Immonen, Salvador Larroca, Humberto Ramos, and Mark Bagley, they're Marvel's interior decorators.
Bendis, Fraction, and Brubaker (and Slott, I suppose) are the architects.
Yeah I agree. Architects draw up the blue prints and have the ideas. Artists are more like the interior decorators or even simply the construction contractors. No matter how great of a job a contractor does constructing a building, the architect still gets the credit. Brainwork > physical labor mostly, unfortunately.


First time a list with John Romita Jr., Mike Deodato and Stuart Immonen
was summed up as 'meh'.
Those guys are complete opposite of 'meh'.
That's why I didn't question their inclusion. =D But you're only as strong as your weakest link. And, imo, Bagley isn't "architect" material, nor is Ramos really. So overall, the list isn't as strong as it could be. But main point really being - no Coipel. He has to be the heaviest hitter at Marvel, as far as I know.

...and yeah, if only Finch, JW3, etc weren't always late...

[Munkiman]

Yeah, Coipel definitely should be on there, especially if he's drawing Thor - and just generally because he's great.


Exactly. They're named "Architects" because the books they're currently drawing are Marvel's high profile properties.

So by comparison, the "Architects" of the DCU are the guys who are currently drawing the flagship books. Which, for the life of me, I dont know which books DC considers their flagships anymore.

Green Lantern, definitely....after that I have no idea. Action Comics? Batman? Is Justice Society still selling well? My disappointment in DC's overall product at the moment is clouding my vision lol
I'm gonna guess that DC's flagships right now, as in books that are driving the overall narratives of the moment, would be... Green Lantern, The Flash, Batman Incorporated, and Superman, since even with JMS having bailed Grounded is still the big thing driving the Superman books.

Which would make DC's "artist architects" Doug Mahnke, Francis Manapul, Yanick Paquette and Eddy Barrows. That doesn't actually sound so bad, I'm not really a fan of Barrows but the other three are grade-A artists drawing cool things in their current books.

You could also possibly make an argument for David Finch for designing Bruce Wayne's new costume and starting up Batman Inc. with the Return one-shot, but he's been very slow since.

[Desaad]

It's pretty clear from their list and "architects" isn't their hottest talent, but their most CONSISTENT talent.

Romita, Immonen, Bagley, Larocca...these guys have spent HUGE swathes of time with Marvel, and they put out huge numbers of books (ie, they're fast). They're the workhorses, they have combined put out a large portion of Marvel's output over the last few years.

Deodoto and Ramos are less fast, but are very loyal to Marvel.

That is what is being referenced here. Not how 'hot' they are.

To that end, I'd say guys like Mahnke, Reis, and Nguyen are comparable. Pete Woods, Tony Daniel, Scott Kolins, and a few others might be on that list as well.

It's not really a quality judgement, my analysis, but a consistency bit. Quitely has done probably the most revolutionary and popular stuff at DC over the years, but he's put out so little of it that, at least by the standards of this list, he wouldn't be included.

And bigger than Coipel at Marvel, I think, is McNiven.

But DC doesn't need to be focusing on their artistic bench. They've got tons of great artists working for them, a deluge of them, many up and comers still. No, they need to work on expanding their writer base. The loss of Nick Spencer was absolutely massive, IMHO, and they should really start jumping on Roberson and Bunn and any writer who distinguishes himself during Flashpoint, as well as up and coming guys like Edmonson and returning greats like Rozum (who never really had much popularity, despite his Xombi series being compared to Morrison and Moore and Gaiman).

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

And bigger than Coipel at Marvel, I think, is McNiven.
Good point, can't believe I forgot him! I think Jim Cheung and Steve Dillon could possibly be up there as well.

[Desaad]

Good point, can't believe I forgot him! I think Jim Cheung and Steve Dillon could possibly be up there as well.

Easy to forget McNiven, he's kind of been off the radar since Old Man Logan ended. He's being incredibly slow with Nemesis, which if course has lower circulation than any of his MU stuff. Same with Cheung.

Dillon is not nearly up there. He's done a lot of little work here and there, but no way is he on that level in terms of popularity, in terms of being able to draw a crowd with his art alone.

[Theozilla]

But DC doesn't need to be focusing on their artistic bench. They've got tons of great artists working for them, a deluge of them, many up and comers still. No, they need to work on expanding their writer base. The loss of Nick Spencer was absolutely massive, IMHO, and they should really start jumping on Roberson and Bunn and any writer who distinguishes himself during Flashpoint, as well as up and coming guys like Edmonson and returning greats like Rozum (who never really had much popularity, despite his Xombi series being compared to Morrison and Moore and Gaiman).

I agree, not only Spencer (we are getting to keep him on T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents thankfully) but they also lost Rucka and Waid (who are now planing to write some Marvel titles).

[Desaad]

I agree, not only Spencer (we are getting to keep him on T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents thankfully) but they also lost Rucka and Waid (who are now planing to write some Marvel titles).

Spencer is a 'new voice' though that could have gone either way, but because DC vacillated (and actually went so far as to TAKE HIM OFF Supergirl), chose Marvel. It was their lack of confidence in him that caused him to go the other way.

In the case of Rucka, he had been with DC for years and years and years, and it's possible he just needed a change or a break.

Waid is, to me, so hit or miss he's not much of a loss.

But changing of writers after long periods of time, that is to be expected to a degree. What I think DC needs to work on ins finding NEW writers for their books. Hopefully some of the Flashpoint writers will mark themselves out.

[Theozilla]

Spencer is a 'new voice' though that could have gone either way, but because DC vacillated (and actually went so far as to TAKE HIM OFF Supergirl), chose Marvel. It was their lack of confidence in him that caused him to go the other way.

In the case of Rucka, he had been with DC for years and years and years, and it's possible he just needed a change or a break.

Waid is, to me, so hit or miss he's not much of a loss.

But changing of writers after long periods of time, that is to be expected to a degree. What I think DC needs to work on ins finding NEW writers for their books. Hopefully some of the Flashpoint writers will mark themselves out.

Oh, I know creators need a change every now and then. It is just that I really liked Rucka (and Marvel now has both Rucka and Brubaker, my favorite noir writers) and Waid at DC :redface:.

I agree that new writers should be a big focus for DC. I heard Rex Ogle was pretty good.

[BohemiaDrinker]

I just think that it's a bit odd, calling the artists architects. It's the writers who design the 'building'.
John Romita Jr., Mike Deodato, Stuart Immonen, Salvador Larroca, Humberto Ramos, and Mark Bagley, they're Marvel's interior decorators.
Bendis, Fraction, and Brubaker (and Slott, I suppose) are the architects.


Yeah I agree. Architects draw up the blue prints and have the ideas. Artists are more like the interior decorators or even simply the construction contractors. No matter how great of a job a contractor does constructing a building, the architect still gets the credit. Brainwork > physical labor mostly, unfortunately.

I`ll have to disagree here; a lot of merits, creation-wise, to be given to artists. Take Warren Ellis`"Transmetropolitan" for instance; lots of it`s impact goes to the visual concepts in that book, and most of greatvisual ideas/solutions came from the headof Darrick Robertson, not Ellis. Same thing with "Next Wave". There are actually some script excerpts on the back of issues, and we see a lot of Ellis saying "Okay Darrick, this is completelly up to you to design".

In case of the Marvel universe, I actually get their argument. The guy who decides how Iron Man`s armor should look is an architect, in the sense that Iron Man is a high profile character that will appear in a lot of books, and that look is gonna be consistent in all of. I beleive this applies to the other artists listed, even if the list is missing some names.

[carabas]

I`ll have to disagree here; a lot of merits, creation-wise, to be given to artists. Take Warren Ellis`"Transmetropolitan" for instance; lots of it`s impact goes to the visual concepts in that book, and most of greatvisual ideas/solutions came from the headof Darrick Robertson, not Ellis. Same thing with "Next Wave".On the other hand, Ellis could have done Transmet and Nextwave with other artists. The results would have been a bit different but still in large parts the same. Robertson and Imonen could not have done thosebooks withot Ellis.
Ellis designed the building, Robertson and Imonen decorated it.


In case of the Marvel universe, I actually get their argument. The guy who decides how Iron Man`s armor should look is an architect, in the sense that Iron Man is a high profile character that will appear in a lot of books, and that look is gonna be consistent in all of.How does deciding what a character superficially looks like have to do with being the architect of a universe?

[BohemiaDrinker]

On the other hand, Ellis could have done Transmet and Nextwave with other artists. The results would have been a bit different but still in large parts the same. Robertson and Imonen could not have done thosebooks withot Ellis.
Ellis designed the building, Robertson and Imonen decorated it.

I think is a little more colaborative than that (in some cases, at least, not all). Transmet, for instance, is what it is, and in large part due to Robertson`s ideas. Visuals are a huge part of a comic, and sometimes they are the artists responsabilty, for good or bad. You can actually take his word, not mine (original post can be found here http://jasonaaron.org/viewtopic.php?p=57606&highlight=#57606 ):


I was fighting time and circumstance to create a complete work. Warren didn't draw it, and Warren, awesome as he is, didn't instruct every little nuance that was in the book. It's hard enough that it's widely recognized at his singular achievement. But that world, those images, those characters that could perform without dialogue? Those three eyed smileys punctuating the book? On all the merchandise? The statue and the action figure designs? That was me. Even those two specials Adam mentioned, were my idea. I was involved in all that Transmet became and was.

These weren't prose novels with cover illos by me. The way the characters looked, the expressions that told you Warren's excellent story? I brought you that. Little things maybe you dig, like Spider's glasses, the look of his tattoos, his cat, Sex puppets, Buy Bombs, Yelena being pregnant in the final issue, Spider's lighter looking like a pistol? The City? That was me. Little things that added up to what that book became. It was a team effort. If Warren and I grew a cherry tree I couldn't claim some cherries as mine and some as his. We grew it together.

So, could warren have written while someone else draws it? Sure. Would it be the same book, or just "a little diferent"? I don`t think so (sure, I may be wrong here, but I think you understand my point)



How does deciding what a character superficially looks like have to do with being the architect of a universe?

Again, that character is gonna be shown in a lot of books, and that look is gonna be consistent (and, more often than not, thought-out to send an specific message). Just look at the recent controversy around around the Wonder Woman costume (and the reasons behind it by JMS, Jim Lee and Don Kramer), both most recent Batman redesigns (Dick and Bruce - Dick has a lot of sketches of early versions at The Source - again, with a lot of reasoning behind it) or the process behind Wally Wests`costume redesign (again, there are sketches in the back of the Flash: Rebiirth hardcover from earlier versions, and a long podcast where Ethan Van Sciver dicusses the reasons for it - I can find it, if you want to hear it). Regardless of how much or how little value somene puts on the art itself, once someoneis actevely colaborating, creatuivily, for the "creation" of something - be it a plot element or a visual one, or one that combines both - and said creations will be used as an standard troughout the entire fictional universe, I think it`s fair to bill this someone an architect,

[paulski]

So Marvel revealed their artist architects...

They are: John Romita Jr., Mike Deodato, Stuart Immonen, Salvador Larroca, Humberto Ramos, and Mark Bagley.

That's it? Really? Wow, Marvel really is in a bit of trouble in the art stakes these days. :eek:

I mean, I really liked Immonen's New Avengers and Larroca, JR and Deodato are solid guys at worst, but Ramos? Seriously? And Bagley... ehn, he'd want to get back to doing better work than he showed on Justice League. That was awful.

And, for me, Coipel's better than at least five of that six.

In my opinion, DC have got about a dozen guys more exciting than these 6. After work (in around 4 hours), I'll try and compile a list of exactly who I'm talking about.

[paulski]

It's pretty clear from their list and "architects" isn't their hottest talent, but their most CONSISTENT talent.

Romita, Immonen, Bagley, Larocca...these guys have spent HUGE swathes of time with Marvel, and they put out huge numbers of books (ie, they're fast). They're the workhorses, they have combined put out a large portion of Marvel's output over the last few years.

Deodoto and Ramos are less fast, but are very loyal to Marvel.

That is what is being referenced here. Not how 'hot' they are.

Ding! Give this guy a banana.

As soon as I saw the six, I thought "Hmm, looks like 'jobs for the boys' to me".

And yeah, can't believe I forgot about McNiven either. To me it shows Marvel really should be using him better.

[Hulk_Is]

I don't really care. DC has always had the better artist's IMO. Marvel's artists always look like crap, but I'm used to it sadly enough. :/

[Ned McDodd]

I just think that it's a bit odd, calling the artists architects. It's the writers who design the 'building'.
John Romita Jr., Mike Deodato, Stuart Immonen, Salvador Larroca, Humberto Ramos, and Mark Bagley, they're Marvel's interior decorators.
Bendis, Fraction, and Brubaker (and Slott, I suppose) are the architects.

i wouldn't say the artists can't be architects of a comic too. For example Mark Bagley defines Spider-man for me. He has done that for many many years, for Amazing Spider-man and Ultimate Spider-man.

But i guess it is a little tricky to determine, for people might have different opinions what architects now really means in this context. But i think Mark Bagley had a huge influence on the books he worked on. At least in my opinion.

[paulski]

God, there's just too many but, if I had to pick six to match (or surpass) Marvel's list, I'd go:

JH Williams III
Ivan Reis
Gary Frank
Yanick Paquette
David Finch
Doug Mahnke

There's your friggin' architects.

And they're pretty much all guys already on top-selling monthlies (with the exception of Gary Frank who's doing Batman Earth One) or those currently in the works. It's scary - I couldn't find room for great artists like Francis Manapul, Nicola Scott, Phil Jimenez, Tony Daniel, Pete Woods, Eddy Barrows, CAFU, Pat Gleason... man, this is frightening. :eek:

And I left out the artists who don't have a lot of regular output - you know, superstars like George Perez, Frank Quitely, Andy Kubert, Ryan Sook, Ethan van Sciver, Cameron Stewart, Frazer Irving, etc etc.

[HeroxMatt2.0]

JH Williams III
Ivan Reis
Doug Mahnke
Francis Manapul
Frank Quitely

But based on franchise, I suppose JHWIII probably won't be there. :/

Ivan Reis (Brightest Day, Blackest Night)
Doug Mahnke (War of the Green Lanterns)
Francis Manapul (Flashpoint)
Yanick Paquette (Batman Inc)
Shane Davis? (Superman: Earth One OGNs)
David Finch (Brightest Day)

[BohemiaDrinker]

God, there's just too many but, if I had to pick six to match (or surpass) Marvel's list, I'd go:

JH Williams III
Ivan Reis
Gary Frank
Yanick Paquette
David Finch
Doug Mahnke

There's your friggin' architects.

And they're pretty much all guys already on top-selling monthlies (with the exception of Gary Frank who's doing Batman Earth One) or those currently in the works. It's scary - I couldn't find room for great artists like Francis Manapul, Nicola Scott, Phil Jimenez, Tony Daniel, Pete Woods, Eddy Barrows, CAFU, Pat Gleason... man, this is frightening. :eek:

And I left out the artists who don't have a lot of regular output - you know, superstars like George Perez, Frank Quitely, Andy Kubert, Ryan Sook, Ethan van Sciver, Cameron Stewart, Frazer Irving, etc etc.

Yopu should add Ethan Van Sciver to that list. Though he rarely actually draw anything that seesprint nowadays, I understand he is responsible for comming up with a lot of visual concepts.

For instance, all the colored lanterns Logos, their overall look and uniforms come from EVS. Don`t know if he is still doing this sort of work today, but he used to be responsible for a bitg part of DC look, even not having a monthly.

[paulski]

You should add Ethan Van Sciver to that list. Though he rarely actually draw anything that seesprint nowadays, I understand he is responsible for comming up with a lot of visual concepts.

Pssst, he was... :wink:


"And I left out the artists who don't have a lot of regular output - you know, superstars like George Perez, Frank Quitely, Andy Kubert, Ryan Sook, Ethan van Sciver, Cameron Stewart, Frazer Irving, etc etc."

[paulski]

Incidentally, I had the pleasure of meeting Ethan a couple weeks ago when he came to a con down under - really interesting guy who had some equally interesting 'behind the scenes' stories of his time at Marvel. Boy, he got jerked around back then, let me tell you... :eek: :wink:

[md62]

Ivan Reis - David Finch - Marcus To - Jesus Saiz - Francis Manapul - Gary Frank - Nicola Scott - Amanda Conner - Aaron Loprestri