Why are the FF passe?

[MRMIRACLE]

It seems like ever since Byrne left the FF, they've been struggling in one sense or another. They haven't been able to generate a film franchise like some of the lesser lights of the Marvel Universe, and have been upstaged by the X-Men (who were originally criticized as being mere FF knock offs) ever since the '70s.

What happened? This was the title that reshaped comics in the 1960s. This is the property that pretty much launched Stan Lee's reputation and, although Kirby already had significant renown, it's fair to say his work on the FF is one of the major structural supports of his legacy. Why was some nerdy kid from Queens with a spider-bite and a bunch of neurotic teenagers from Westchester able to go so far beyond the FF?

Is it that they were essentially a superhero family and a stable family is something to which we can no longer relate? Is it that their 50's-SciFi-based premise and adventures came from a time when we were optimistic about discovery and future in a way we no longer are? Is it that the FF became so good in their first decade there's been nowhere to go but down (with notable exceptions like the aforementioned Mr. Byrne's run)?

In short, how did the "World's Greatest Comic Magazine" become so nonviable that it was necessary to morph it into the Future Foundation?

[nightwing45]

It's because aside from Byrne. No one else understands the Fantastic Four. They keep looking to riff Byrne, or go back to what Jack Kirby was doing which was not the point of the Fantastic Four.

The FF are explorers, adventurers. And most of all a family. Most writers focus on one, or the other. Sadly, that's what will continue to happen until some one who actually 'gets' the FF takes over.




It seems like ever since Byrne left the FF, they've been struggling in one sense or another. They haven't been able to generate a film franchise like some of the lesser lights of the Marvel Universe, and have been upstaged by the X-Men (who were originally criticized as being mere FF knock offs) ever since the '70s.

What happened? This was the title that reshaped comics in the 1960s. This is the property that pretty much launched Stan Lee's reputation and, although Kirby already had significant renown, it's fair to say his work on the FF is one of the major structural supports of his legacy. Why was some nerdy kid from Queens with a spider-bite and a bunch of neurotic teenagers from Westchester able to go so far beyond the FF?

Is it that they were essentially a superhero family and a stable family is something to which we can no longer relate? Is it that their 50's-SciFi-based premise and adventures came from a time when we were optimistic about discovery and future in a way we no longer are? Is it that the FF became so good in their first decade there's been nowhere to go but down (with notable exceptions like the aforementioned Mr. Byrne's run)?

In short, how did the "World's Greatest Comic Magazine" become so nonviable that it was necessary to morph it into the Future Foundation?

[agrich]

I think there is something to the idea that the themes of alienation and being an outsider and a loner as in X-Men or Spder-Man is more timeless and relatable than the Fantastic Four. The FF have always been kind of a challengers of the unknown kind of thing and people leave that behind or at least feel like they have seen it and read it all before more quickly. I loved Byrne's FF, but I was starting to weary of it even before Byrne left. X-Men I only stopped when it was just too hard to keep up with.

As for Spider-Man vs. FF, I think he and his powers just work better in movies. I personally am skeptical about an Avengers movie franchise, but we'll see. Spider-Man films just looked much better and more real than FF, which enabled them to appeal to young and old. I don't know any adults, personally, who liked either FF film.

[DeadXMan]

:
It's because aside from Byrne. No one else understands the Fantastic Four. They keep looking to riff Byrne, or go back to what Jack Kirby was doing which was not the point of the Fantastic Four.

The FF are explorers, adventurers. And most of all a family. Most writers focus on one, or the other. Sadly, that's what will continue to happen until some one who actually 'gets' the FF takes over.


Heellooo, WAID!!!!

[Monty_Cristo]

the nuclear family is no longer as important. the FF are a relic of a past age. they have their appeal. but it's not what it used to be.

[Ravin' Ray]

There are almost as many replies to that question as there are fans, but one that is fairly common is that new writers do not break away sufficiently from tried-and-true (read: formula) plots that evoke reactions of "Now this is like the good ol' times when the FF really rocked!" from the old readers and "Wow I didn't know the FF is this good" from new readers. The status quo remains the same, except for temporary replacements, a new member to the family (and even Val (or the two Vals) had such a complicated time-warping history that people debate who exactly she is). Whatever crises or angst the individual members and the FF as a whole experienced, didn't seem so life-altering to the characters that it became as defining moment with lasting impact (or else it caused a regress to an earlier state, as Johnny was often accused of after the Lyja revelation). Writers were hesitant to make radical changes because there was no guarantee that such experiment would fail miserably and doom the FF to irrelevance and cancellation; or take the FF in a totally new direction that would intrigue readers enough to actually want to follow them. Now Hickman is in that very position, and he has the (for some) unenviable task of bringing up the FF to the 21st century while retaining enough of what gave it it's own charm that it is a working mix of old and new.

You hit it on the head with the reference to family, but I personally disagree on the part about the stability failing to relate to us. Whatever the status of our own real-world families, I think we all want stability; any conflict or trial should exist just to test that strength and in the end make it stronger, not rend it apart. This must transcend cultures and nationalities I guess, since on this board we come from all over.

[Iron Maiden]

I disagree with the opinion that the nuclear family is no longer important or else why was the film that beat the FF out of the starting gate, "The Incredibles", such a blockbuster hit.

I do agree that the FF movies left much to be desired but consider this....the first movie had a bigger opening weekend than Batman Begins and against heavyweight competition like a Spielberg movie "War of the Words". The interest was there but it was squandered by Fox not putting together a top flight creative team. Director Tim Story hasn't got much going on in Hollywood the last I looked. But that's the film world.

In the comic book world, I think the FF lost a lot of ground in the era when the X-Men was most popular, the 1990's. The creative team on the FF for quite a long time during that period was Tom DeFalco and Paul Ryan, neither of which exactly attracts the youth element of fans. Ironically, I got back into the FF when Claremont and Larocca were on the title, and this was back when Larocca wasn't so fixated on using the technology boost on his work. I also wish that the Lobdell/Davis where longer because I think they started out with a bang. When Marvel puts together a good creative team, it works i.e. Waid/Wieringo. I wish JMS and McKone had been that team but I do recall that Civil War pretty much derailed the comic and the mercurical JMS made public his feelings about not liking to have to deal with it.

But Hickman has the right idea....don't do a retread. Do what Jack Kirby would have and that is try something new.

[Castel]

Always liked the family and still do. And i really don't see Byrne's works as the best ever done about them. (have you re-read it recently ?)

[nightwing45]

Always liked the family and still do. And i really don't see Byrne's works as the best ever done about them. (have you re-read it recently ?)

I think underestimate the affect that John Byrne had on the book. Had he not come on the book, and totally revamped the series. It would probably be selling worse than it was after Stan and Jack.

[nightwing45]

You mention Jack Kirby and new, and yet all he ever do was recycle the same stuff that other people created and he took credit for.



I disagree with the opinion that the nuclear family is no longer important or else why was the film that beat the FF out of the starting gate, "The Incredibles", such a blockbuster hit.

I do agree that the FF movies left much to be desired but consider this....the first movie had a bigger opening weekend than Batman Begins and against heavyweight competition like a Spielberg movie "War of the Words". The interest was there but it was squandered by Fox not putting together a top flight creative team. Director Tim Story hasn't got much going on in Hollywood the last I looked. But that's the film world.

In the comic book world, I think the FF lost a lot of ground in the era when the X-Men was most popular, the 1990's. The creative team on the FF for quite a long time during that period was Tom DeFalco and Paul Ryan, neither of which exactly attracts the youth element of fans. Ironically, I got back into the FF when Claremont and Larocca were on the title, and this was back when Larocca wasn't so fixated on using the technology boost on his work. I also wish that the Lobdell/Davis where longer because I think they started out with a bang. When Marvel puts together a good creative team, it works i.e. Waid/Wieringo. I wish JMS and McKone had been that team but I do recall that Civil War pretty much derailed the comic and the mercurical JMS made public his feelings about not liking to have to deal with it.

But Hickman has the right idea....don't do a retread. Do what Jack Kirby would have and that is try something new.

[nightwing45]

:


Heellooo, WAID!!!!

Waid's run was rubbish.

[agrich]

The first few years of byrne hold up fine. The last few, id say from around the time the thing is replaced by she hulk, isn't quite as good. Just a less interesting dynqamic.

I agree byrne isn't the best ever (obviously lee-kirby, and then I have a soft spot for around 151-200 or so) , but his first 20 or so issues are really strong and 236 remains one of my favorite comics of all time, certainly one of the two or three best FF stories ever.

[Iron Maiden]

You mention Jack Kirby and new, and yet all he ever do was recycle the same stuff that other people created and he took credit for.

And where in the wide world of sports did you come up with this notion? Just for starters...where did he copy Galactus from? The Silver Surfer?

[DeadXMan]

Waid's run was rubbish.


Shot Him and cut out his tongue then shot his tongue!:evilangry:

[Monty_Cristo]

If considered separate from couples without children, single parent families, or unmarried couples with children, in the United States traditional nuclear families appear to constitute a minority of households with rising prevalence of other family arrangements. As of 2000, nuclear families with the original biological parents constituted roughly 24.1% of American households, compared to 40.3% in 1970.[7] Roughly 75% of all children in the United States will spend at least some time in a single-parent household.[citation needed]

According to some sociologists, "[The nuclear family] no longer seems adequate to cover the wide diversity of household arrangements we see today." (Edwards 1991; Stacey 1996). A new term has been introduced, postmodern family, which is meant to describe the great variability in family forms, including single-parent families and child-free couples."

[DeadXMan]

And where in the wide world of sports did you come up with this notion? Just for starters...where did he copy Galactus from? The Silver Surfer?


He trolling because Jack based the FF on his Challengers of the unknown.

But keep in mind, Challengers of the unknown do not have 3 movies ( yes I'm counting the 90's movie. It has such a cult following Marvel should just release it) countless cartoon shows and a spin off where a de-age member transforms thanks to a ring of SCIENCE! and Three of their top tier villas in the most anticipated fighting game ever.

and for your second question:

The Bible

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUH15Ke_Hzc

[Iron Maiden]

Thanks for posting that DeadXMan. I recall seeing that on the bonus disk with one of the FF movie DVDs and I got it just for that because the first release didn't have it. Great interview with Barry Windsor Smith is on there too.

Someone here should also subscribe to the Jack Kirby Collector.

[Monty_Cristo]

He trolling because Jack based the FF on his Challengers of the unknown.

But keep in mind, Challengers of the unknown do not have 3 movies ( yes I'm counting the 90's movie. It has such a cult following Marvel should just release it) countless cartoon shows and a spin off where a de-age member transforms thanks to a ring of SCIENCE! and Three of their top tier villas in the most anticipated fighting game ever.

and for your second question:

The Bible

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUH15Ke_Hzc

well that explains why the Surfer and Galactus are so boring. never could stay awake in Sunday school.

[Heroism]

I have to say that I'm new to FF (just started with Dark Reign and am through FF 580) and am really enjoying it. It may be because its so outside of the stereotypical storyline. I'm enjoying the storyline of the kids.... and the dynamic between them and their situation.

Now that I have to wait until May to read 583 forward, I am going to start at FF #1 with my MDCU subscription. I'm looking forward to seeing more villains and getting perspective on where the characters came from.

The movie wasn't bad because of the characters. Everybody knows that a story can be told a million different ways. When you move into the venue of film you also have casting etc... The Thing just looked awful... and we all know the story has to be right.

I wish they would have put the franchise in the hands of somebody like J. Favreau, or somebody similar who seems to know how to handle a franchise. He also seems to take what he is given seriously and puts time into developing it correctly.

[Heroism]

Wanted to add that I ordered my hard copy subscription for FF#1 (in March). Psyched to have added a hard copy title to my reading rotation.

[Booger Man]

The Fantastic Four works best when one of the top artists in the industry is drawing the book. When Jack Kirby, John Byrne, Walt Simonson, Jim Lee, Alan Davis, Carlos Pacheco, and Steve Epting are handling the visuals, it works. I would have mentioned Bryan Hitch, but he adapted his style so he could meet deadlines, and monthly Bryan Hitch isn't quite as good as the above mentioned artists.

As far as the stories go, plenty of writers do fine (like the underrated Tom Defalco), but too many don't grasp what the FF is all about, which is why Bendis, Ellis, and others failed so miserably in recreating them for the Ultimate line. I also think that while Tom Brevoort claims that the Stan and Jack FF is his favorite comic ever, he struggles understanding why it works and has never made it sell, so he resported to what he always resorts to, stunts, deaths, and relaunching with a #1.

[Pumpkin Bomb]

I personally would have been reading the book if they did more science-fictiony material.

[Hulk_Is]

Well, I think today's book climate revels in the dark a bit too much. And, the Fantastic Four were about finding bright spots in dark spots. I think Jonathan Hickman is on the right track but, twists his tales a bit too much for my taste. That being said, at least people are enjoying it and there's buzz surrounding them. Hopefully when they become the proper 4 again, it'll reatain a similar buzz.

[Mark_S]

I don't know if they are passe, but I lost interest after cw and this latest death stunt doesn't make me curious about them at all.

Mark_S

[nightwing45]

And where in the wide world of sports did you come up with this notion? Just for starters...where did he copy Galactus from? The Silver Surfer?

He didn't create Galactus, and Silver Surfer is vastly different from the original character Jack conceived. And no DeadXMan, I am not trolling. I am pouring acid on the notion that Kirby created the heavens, the moon, and the sun.

[Monty_Cristo]

Well, I think today's book climate revels in the dark a bit too much. And, the Fantastic Four were about finding bright spots in dark spots.

how so? :confused:

[nightwing45]

Thanks for posting that DeadXMan. I recall seeing that on the bonus disk with one of the FF movie DVDs and I got it just for that because the first release didn't have it. Great interview with Barry Windsor Smith is on there too.

Someone here should also subscribe to the Jack Kirby Collector.

And read rants by Jack Kirby about how he was lied to, and abused? No thanks. I'd rather shove my hand into a blender. As an artist Kirby bordered on genius. As a writer, he couldn't make Shakespeare interesting.

[Mark_S]

how so? :confused:

I always thought that they were the explores of the mu, not supervillain fighters. That I thought was more the Avengers turf. The FF would respond but Reed would always take them to the unknown in search of knowledge.

Mark_S

[Hulk_Is]

how so? :confused:

What I mean is the FF are an adventurous lot, and due to Reed's obsession with all thing's new, that's takes the team down a road of "darkness", the unknown, or a dark spot. But, due to the overall positive nature of the team, they are the bright light to the scientific areas in particular that are seldom known.

Most books today tend to tell heavier and sophisticated stories - that's the overall climate of Marvel's superhero comic books. The FF might work best when they are freer to be who they are by nature instead of trying to have them be like everyone else because they are like no other operation in the MU.

[DeadXMan]

well that explains why the Surfer and Galactus are so boring. never could stay awake in Sunday school.

Then TRY Paridise Lost by Milton or To Reign in Hell By Steven Brust.

in other words:


READ A BOOK!!!!!

[DeadXMan]

He didn't create Galactus, and Silver Surfer is vastly different from the original character Jack conceived. And no DeadXMan, I am not trolling. I am pouring acid on the notion that Kirby created the heavens, the moon, and the sun.

no, just Gods, Monsters, Heroes, Villians and legends.

[MichaelChen]

The very concept of explorers has lost some of its luster in modern times. Exploring on earth has come to be associated with racism. Explorers aren't inherently heroic anymore. Now they are the people whose real-life analogues lead to a lot of misery.

Exploring in space isn't associated with anything negative, but people now have enough knowledge of the solar system and the practical limits of space-travel that space-travel is no longer glamorous. We aren't going to find any life on Mars. We aren't going to find any life for a very long time. Space is mostly, well, SPACE, and rocks. It's silent, it's dead, it's not really worth exploring to the average person anymore.

Those two changes to the average person's thinking is why we get movies like "Aliens" and "Avatar", where space is this incredibly bleak place you wouldn't want to be, and when you finally find something alive in all that bleakness, it's either going to eat you, or be exploited by you.

So the Fantastic Four, wonderful explorers who constantly find beautiful things they don't harm, or who find evil barbaric empires they bring down, is no longer nearly as easy a sell as it was in the 60's.

[icctrombone]

I enjoyed many of the runs since Kirby/ Lee. I enjoyed Lee/Buscema, Wolfman/Byrne, Conway/Buckler, Thomas/Perez,Wolfman/Pollard, Defalco/Ryan.

[Iron Maiden]

He didn't create Galactus, and Silver Surfer is vastly different from the original character Jack conceived. And no DeadXMan, I am not trolling. I am pouring acid on the notion that Kirby created the heavens, the moon, and the sun.

I think I would take the word of many industry pros before an anonymous poster on a message board. First of all, you have created a false premise by implying that anyone other than yourself is saying that Kirby should get the credit for creating the entire Marvel Universe. When I used the phrase, do what Kirby did and do something new, I am making a reference to a series of columns Warren Ellis (http://www.warrenellis.com/?p=8231) did for the Bleeding Cool website.


And read rants by Jack Kirby about how he was lied to, and abused? No thanks. I'd rather shove my hand into a blender. As an artist Kirby bordered on genius. As a writer, he couldn't make Shakespeare interesting.

In comics there is a symbiotic relationship between the fellow putting down the words and the one who has to visualize it. In a way, the artist is almost a film director because he calls the shots many times. Recall also that Stan developed "The Marvel Method" where the artist attended a brief story conference and were sent off to fill in the details. So if perhaps Kirby wasn't a wizard at Stan's florid writing style he was still a co-plotter and his pages told the story as well. He was a blue collar visionary that gave us the looks of so many of characters that are still used to this day.

The Jack Kirby collector is not a rant-filled periodical as you try to characterize it. I have read quite a few of them and they commemorate his work by publishing original art work and interviewing colleagues like Joe Sinnott, George Tuska, and so forth.

[Brannon]

I don't think there is anything at all with the classic FF. If anything, there as something wrong with the modern Marvel fanbase. Have you seen the shit that they buy? If anything, the modern comic fan is "passe."

[Mark_S]

I don't think there is anything at all with the classic FF. If anything, there as something wrong with the modern Marvel fanbase. Have you seen the shit that they buy? If anything, the modern comic fan is "passe."

I don't think you can go that far. It is a different time as has been pointed out. Benevolence is out, exploring for the sake of discovery is out, peaceful co-operation is out... despair and cynicism rule marvel now and in that sort of atmosphere the FF-who were even at their worst an optimist bunch of explorers-don't really have a place. But you can't blame people for buying what they like. This latest death stunt is selling I think and marvel will reap a lot from the new numbering, new logo (hey look a new T-shirt to buy!) and if there is a story in the midst of all that marketing and hype that people enjoy then let them enjoy it. Given that the mood of the country echos that of the 1930's optimism and peaceful exploration with fun adventures thrown in just wouldn't sell right now. Death and despair and grief sell.

Mark_S

[Brannon]

I don't think you can go that far. It is a different time as has been pointed out. Benevolence is out, exploring for the sake of discovery is out, peaceful co-operation is out... despair and cynicism rule marvel now and in that sort of atmosphere the FF-who were even at their worst an optimist bunch of explorers-don't really have a place. But you can't blame people for buying what they like. This latest death stunt is selling I think and marvel will reap a lot from the new numbering, new logo (hey look a new T-shirt to buy!) and if there is a story in the midst of all that marketing and hype that people enjoy then let them enjoy it. Given that the mood of the country echos that of the 1930's optimism and peaceful exploration with fun adventures thrown in just wouldn't sell right now. Death and despair and grief sell.

Mark_S

Lol, listen to what you yourself, correctly and astutely, typed. "Benevolence is out, exploring for the sake of discovery is out, peaceful co-operation is out... despair and cynicism rule"

If we were watching this movie (as in the modern comic fan: the movie) most of us would hate these people. It's time to start facing facts and admitting that there is something wrong with US. We have shitty, anti-intellectual, defeatist, lazy, churlish tastes nowadays and there is little denying it.

[Mark_S]

Lol, listen to what you yourself, correctly and astutely, typed. "Benevolence is out, exploring for the sake of discovery is out, peaceful co-operation is out... despair and cynicism rule"

If we were watching this movie (as in the modern comic fan: the movie) most of us would hate these people. It's time to start facing facts and admitting that there is something wrong with US. We have shitty, anti-intellectual, defeatist, lazy, churlish tastes nowadays and there is little denying it.

I'll admit that there is something wrong with the country I just don't see any solution. In that I think the current marvel US is a perfect mirror of our country. Luckily I'm almost done with my spaceship and I've got a nice place picked out on Mars. :)

Mark_S

[Sighphi]

The story of the F4 keeps getting reset for Reed being distant, Sue wanting some, Things want to be normal, and Torch is an idiot. That dynamic needs to change and STAY changed.





and for your second question:

The Bible

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUH15Ke_Hzc

OMG! Galactus is god and SS is Lucifer!!!!

[Brannon]

I'll admit that there is something wrong with the country I just don't see any solution. In that I think the current marvel US is a perfect mirror of our country. Luckily I'm almost done with my spaceship and I've got a nice place picked out on Mars. :)

Mark_S

I just love how no matter how stupid something is, as long as millions of people do it, it's some how validated. Got to love humanity!

[Ravin' Ray]

So the Fantastic Four, wonderful explorers who constantly find beautiful things they don't harm, or who find evil barbaric empires they bring down, is no longer nearly as easy a sell as it was in the 60's.
So adding new wondrous dimensions for the FF to explore like the Macroverse won't work anymore becayse the MU is saturated with them.

The story of the F4 keeps getting reset for Reed being distant, Sue wanting some, Things want to be normal, and Torch is an idiot. That dynamic needs to change and STAY changed.
It took the last stages of Johnny's life for him to lose that idiot label, sadly; and any such maturity in the past gave way to relapses to the youthful impulsiveness and thrill-seeking of the past. Reed still maintains some distance re rebuilding the Bridge despite his promise to Sue at the end of Authoritative Action not to withhold secrets anymore.

[Zero Hunter]

I just think they need to try something new. That was what was so good about Byrnes run was that he tried new stuff. Now it seem like a simple formula with new writers in that they all want to do a Doom story and they all want to use Galactus. I mean it just gets boring after a while. Give one of the rarely used FF villians a revamp and use them, or get them bakc to some crazy exploring or such like when Byrne sent the whole team into the Negative Zone.

Just do something different. I have said before that I think what they really need now is a rest like Thor had. Take them all off the table for a year or two being lost in some other dimension or such. Then bring them back with a bang and top notch talent.

[Zolton]

They need to try something new. Maybe explore more more like find a lost race of Atlantians or alien Inhumans or some multidimensional team consisting of Reed Richardses. Then maybe they can kill off say, the Human Torch and changed their team name to... "The Future Foundation" and have maybe Spider-man on the team to fill the void left by Johnny Storm.

[Heroism]

I don't think you can go that far. It is a different time as has been pointed out. Benevolence is out, exploring for the sake of discovery is out, peaceful co-operation is out... despair and cynicism rule marvel now and in that sort of atmosphere the FF-who were even at their worst an optimist bunch of explorers-don't really have a place. But you can't blame people for buying what they like. This latest death stunt is selling I think and marvel will reap a lot from the new numbering, new logo (hey look a new T-shirt to buy!) and if there is a story in the midst of all that marketing and hype that people enjoy then let them enjoy it. Given that the mood of the country echos that of the 1930's optimism and peaceful exploration with fun adventures thrown in just wouldn't sell right now. Death and despair and grief sell.

Mark_S

Not sure about this one. I don't think the sale of a comic really has much to do with optimism and peacefulness. Bringing down a Galactus is badass no matter what the atmosphere in the country is. I think people just need to give it a shot (and maybe see a decent presentation on film) for the comic to sell. Let's face it - that first one (didn't see the 2nd) was a stinker.

I'm new to the story and am loving it! Been away from comics since 1999 and I haven't really picked up many since. The diversity in the new team (future foundation being built) may be just what the story needed. Seems like a pretty decent start to an interesting team.

Like I said - Loving it!

[Mark_S]

Not sure about this one. I don't think the sale of a comic really has much to do with optimism and peacefulness. Bringing down a Galactus is badass no matter what the atmosphere in the country is. I think people just need to give it a shot (and maybe see a decent presentation on film) for the comic to sell. Let's face it - that first one (didn't see the 2nd) was a stinker.

I'm new to the story and am loving it! Been away from comics since 1999 and I haven't really picked up many since. The diversity in the new team (future foundation being built) may be just what the story needed. Seems like a pretty decent start to an interesting team.

Like I said - Loving it!

And that's good, but it's been a while since the FF brought down Galactus hasn't it? Admittedly I haven't been keeping up, but how many good times have they had since cw? I really don't read much of marvel lately but I do try to keep up and from what I can tell if there is a happy person in the mu then it is probably because he's insane. Marvel writers don't seem to do happiness, optimism, loyalty... any positive quality of the human experience seems beyond the scope of their vision. The main component of the current FF story arc (or stunt from my point of view) is death and grief. What does that say about marvel? It's not even real since Johny will be back in a year or two tops.

mark_S

[Ravin' Ray]

It's not even real since Johny will be back in a year or two tops.
Would Hickman really bring back Johnny within his three-year story arcs pitched to Brevoort? Or, to be more precise, show him the way we expect him to appear as?

[Mark_S]

Would Hickman really bring back Johnny within his three-year story arcs pitched to Brevoort? Or, to be more precise, show him the way we expect him to appear as?

I don't know, how long did Peter's unmasking last? Or Steve's death? I just don't trust the writers anymore.

Mark_S

[Heroism]

And that's good, but it's been a while since the FF brought down Galactus hasn't it? Admittedly I haven't been keeping up, but how many good times have they had since cw? I really don't read much of marvel lately but I do try to keep up and from what I can tell if there is a happy person in the mu then it is probably because he's insane. Marvel writers don't seem to do happiness, optimism, loyalty... any positive quality of the human experience seems beyond the scope of their vision. The main component of the current FF story arc (or stunt from my point of view) is death and grief. What does that say about marvel? It's not even real since Johny will be back in a year or two tops.

mark_S

To be totally honest, I'm not sure about the past stories. I haven't read to the death yet. So far its been cool with the assembly of the ff. I'm heading back to start with the sixties issues this week.

[Ravin' Ray]

I just don't trust the writers anymore.
Although I disagree with you, I respect your point. Personally, if Hickman's already planned out Johnny's return he should not be the same Johnny as before. Depending on what he went through after his death, he's going to have a different mindset (unless he somehow got mind-wiped of his afterlife experiences) and perspective. Maybe forever lose that immature label that's been an albatross around his neck. Even if he keeps his body and powers. Or maybe not even them. Just wild speculation on my part.

[Mechano]

eh, they've always been one of my favorite teams...who cares if they haven't been the flavor of the month in decades.

[Iron Maiden]

Although I disagree with you, I respect your point. Personally, if Hickman's already planned out Johnny's return he should not be the same Johnny as before. Depending on what he went through after his death, he's going to have a different mindset (unless he somehow got mind-wiped of his afterlife experiences) and perspective. Maybe forever lose that immature label that's been an albatross around his neck. Even if he keeps his body and powers. Or maybe not even them. Just wild speculation on my part.

I sincerely hope you are right or what would be the point? Johnny has gone through too many of these reboots from maturity then back to a doofus again. Granted, there should always be a bit of a free spirit about him. He was the youngest of the group when his life changed and he always took that and ran with it. He never brooded about his powers ruining his life. That's the one thing the movie does get right about him. But he should never be regressed again after this.

[Kayel]

If i could put my two cents in. I think the general consensus of the mainstream public is that the Fantastic Four is too "wacky" and "out there" for modern audiences. Let's face it, we live in grim and gritty times and books that reflect that tone are the ones that do best on the market and get the most attention.

Look at the Avengers franchise. The Avengers never really caught on with people until Bendis came on and made the Avengers more of a "street" team by adding Luke Cage, Spiderman, Spiderwoman and Wolverine. I mean, i think that tells you something about what kind of books the mainstream audience are into.

I think when done right, the FF are an absolute blast to read but i have to say I hate it when it gets too bogged down in wacky science. I'm not gonna lie, Hickman goes heavy into the sciency-technobabble and that really takes me out of the story sometimes. Last issue (the one where Johnny died), i could barely understand a word Val and Franklin were saying to each other. I'm not saying dumb everything down, but don't overdo it, thats the kind of stuff that pushes the casual audience away i think.

[Blade X]

I said it before (several times), and I'll say it again. The main thing that has mostly kept the FF from becoming more popular and selling better than most other team books is that the team (due to having the number/word "4/Four" in their team name) was always (until recently) limited to only 4 members. Not only is the team limited to 4 members, the team has to have the original 4 core members. Even if one of the 4 are replaced, it can only be temporary. This is why I suggested several years ago to Tom Brevoort (when he had his own forum over on comixfan) that they should change the title and team name of the FF from "FANTASTIC FOUR" to "FANTASTIC FOUR PLUS" (the "PLUS" meaning "additional"/"more") and ad new permanent members to the team without getting rid of any of the original core 4 FF members. This way, the team would be able to keep "fresh" because those new members could leave or be killed off and be replaced by brand new members. Of course, Brevoort rejected my suggestion/ideasaying because he said that he couldn't see Marvel changing the name of the flagship title that kicked off the MU. Fast forward, several years later, and we now have FF (FUTURE FOUNDATION) #1 coming out with a new FF team that has a different team name (more different than the one I suggested) and with new members added to the team in addition to the original core 4 ....er....I mean 3 members.

[Kayel]

Lol, come on dude, like you didnt already know that Tom Brevoort is full of shit. lol

[Alex_]

I would argue that the FF is anything but a "stable family." Their kids are traumatized (see FF #501). The marriage is often in shambles. Ben doesn't belong, and sometimes he knows it. They have a unique family. It's not the "nuclear" family of the 50s, it's unique, and they have plenty of struggles.

I would say the reason it's not popular is merely because "Fantastic Four" sounds like a title for little kids, and it's not for little kids anymore as well all know. There is nothing wrong with the content, but a lot of adults, and especially teens, think twice before picking up a title called "Fantastic Four." Even today, "X-Men" sounds way cooler. And this isn't a stretch. It's completely true. When I tell people my favorite comic is FF, especially non-comic reads, I get that "look." The re-titling of "Future Foundation" was just the change it needed.

[The Black Guardian]

the nuclear family is no longer as important. the FF are a relic of a past age. they have their appeal. but it's not what it used to be.
The FF aren't really a nuclear family. They're a married couple, the brother/in-law, and a good friend. Nuclear family is just mom, dad, kids, and grandparents.

I don't it's the family that's problem. It's the fact they're explorers. We (as a society) are not as interested in exploration as we were in the 1960s. The globe has been mapped to completion. If you want to see a part of the world, just go see it on the Net. There's no space race anymore. Heck, many people have become sedentary. None of the kids in my neighbourhood have ever really roamed the neighbourhood (or the city) like I remember doing when I was a kid.

[Blade X]

Lol, come on dude, like you didnt already know that Tom Brevoort is full of shit. lol

Back when I made my suggestion to him, I didn't know that he was full of crap. However, I wasn't naive enough to thin k that if sales of FF sunk low enough, that he wouldn't actually use my suggestion (which I freely gave to him and did not expect nor want any money for).

[CaptainOtter]

It's actually quite simple. Coolness factor. I don't know a single person who would describe the Fantastic Four as "cool". It doesn't matter how complex or layered the character is, Mr. Fantastic has a lame power in the public view. Stretching? Please, Wolverine has freaking claws and will straight up murder you. Combined with bland costumes and very campy names, people just don't see the FF as cool.

Now, let's compare this to some more successful characters. Batman is an uncompromising dark knight, who practically defines what it means to be cool. Iron Man's recent uprising in popularity has much to do with the fact that his armor looks awesome, and that the guy playing him was freaking amazing. Yes, the qualities of a character and their personality are important in making them cultural icons, but they can't get anywhere unless they're cool.

[The Black Guardian]

Hey Hey Hey HEY HEY! They don't come much cooler than Ben. :mad:

There's more to Reed than stretching, too. He's almost invlunerable because of that stretching. You need to really f--- him up to f--- him up.

[Babylon23]

The FF aren't Passe. It's that simple. They may not fall into what many modern readers like in their comic characters, and they have been overtaken in the grim 'n gritty era in popularity, but the series has been in constant publication since the 60's, and continues to sell well even today. It may not be Marvel's #1 franchise, but that doesn't in any way mean the book is passe.

[Iron Maiden]

Other than the covers, there's freakin' few times that Hickman even has had Reed use his stretching powers in any significant manner. His real power, much like his dark twin Victor, is his intellect.

[Ravin' Ray]

Hey Hey Hey HEY HEY! They don't come much cooler than Ben. :mad:
Even Batman said as much (or sorta) in Avengers/JLA #3. :biggrin:

There's more to Reed than stretching, too. He's almost invlunerable because of that stretching. You need to really f--- him up to f--- him up.
Yes, and one of the movies even had a joke about his body parts', um, stretchability. :eek:

[Brannon]

To put this back on the fans, if we're honest with ourselves, the modern fanbase has very boring, limited tastes right now. Cosmic characters, monster books, magic books, etc, aren't popular like they were in the past. There is very little variety and a bleak "sameness" to everything. Creatively uninspired creators are creating for imaginatively uninspired readers.

Given the FF's strengths, it's no wonder they're not popular right now. I'd almost wear that as a badge of pride, to be honest.

[Ravin' Ray]

You can look at it from a business perspective and say that Marvel has to pander to changing tastes so the onus in on the company. Or you can look at it from a creative perspective and say that readers don't appreciate quality when they see it so the onus is on the them.

[Hulk_Is]

To put this back on the fans, if we're honest with ourselves, the modern fanbase has very boring, limited tastes right now. Cosmic characters, monster books, magic books, etc, aren't popular like they were in the past. There is very little variety and a bleak "sameness" to everything. Creatively uninspired creators are creating for imaginatively uninspired readers.

Given the FF's strengths, it's no wonder they're not popular right now. I'd almost wear that as a badge of pride, to be honest.

I don't think that the creators are uninspired exactly. I will agree mostly about the "imaginatively uninspired" readers comment though.

[PeterCSM]

What was so bad about the Defalco run? I can't find much of anything about it online though I know it's when Lyja was revealed and Thing wore a helmet. Oh and issue 400 title has to do with a Watcher dying or something. But when I do hear about DeFalco's run it's usually ranked as one of the worst (except on this thread where a couple people seem to have enjoyed it).

I've never been a fan of the F4. I like the Thing but he's usually going through the same personal story over and over again. The others are a smart guy, a hot shot, and a strong woman figure. They're fine but usually not enough to keep my interest. I like my teams to have more complicated and diverse characters and some mystery behind them. That said I have enjoyed a few issues along the way but often I find the books a bit stilted. The Avengers books are like this sometimes too but have more characters running around so it's not as noticeable. I have gone back and collected the Hickman run, which I like so far. The book feels like it's moving forward and is full of large ideas with fun and danger. Plus I love the supporting cast now living in the building.

[Brannon]

You can look at it from a business perspective and say that Marvel has to pander to changing tastes so the onus in on the company. Or you can look at it from a creative perspective and say that readers don't appreciate quality when they see it so the onus is on the them.

Exactly. I used to be like so many others, screaming "Marvel sucks now!" during the various regime changes, but I came to realize that it's the fans that dictate horrible trends and prolonged mediocrity. Of course, as fans, this is the hardest critique to make. It's much easier to blame editors, writers and artists.

Marvel and DC have always had their more popular franchises, but there used to be variety around those mainstays.

It's kind of ironic that the comic that ushered in the Marvel Age, and angsty heroes like the Thing and Sub-Mariner, is now seen as being "passe" by some.

I do think it's interesting about the exploration aspect of the FF being passe in particular. This does reflect our current stagnant space program, in contrast to the vitality, excitement and enthusiasm of the program in the 60's that paralleled the FF's adventures.

[The Black Guardian]

DeFalco's FF was great. Lyja's one of the best things to come from the series. Thing with a helmet was visually bad, but I think it served a good purpose.

[Ravin' Ray]

Lyja's one of the best things to come from the series.
It cut both ways for me. On the one hand it freed Alicia from being married to Johnny and enabled her to walk another path and possible hook up with Ben again; on the other hand it pretty much laid to waste all the emotional ties Johnny and Alicia were building on that Byrne intended and carried forward by subsequent writers. True, Lyja started to feel more like a human than a Skrull; but it just left a bad taste in the mouth for me for some time. At least she's doing some soul-searching in, of all places, the Negative Zone.

[Brannon]

DeFalco's FF was great. Lyja's one of the best things to come from the series. Thing with a helmet was visually bad, but I think it served a good purpose.

I think Lyja is one of the worst things to come from the series. You don't mess with the second best FF run ever that quickly after the fact. DeFalco eventually rejected much of Walt's stuff on Thor as well. I mean, come on. (I will say that I think the DeFalco/Frenz Thor run up till Masterson becomes Thor was very good. His FF was horrible, though.)

[The Black Guardian]

I guess my opinion about Lyja is influenced by my opinion that the Johnny-Alicia pairing was the single worst thing Byrne did for FF.

[Brannon]

I guess my opinion about Lyja is influenced by my opinion that the Johnny-Alicia pairing was the single worst thing Byrne did for FF.

I'm somewhat indifferent to it, seeing as how they could have simply been broken up. It was one of the weaker aspects of his run, but that's forgivable seeing that most of it is classic. But making her a Skrull spy was just too silly and convoluted for me to buy.

[Blade X]

I guess my opinion about Lyja is influenced by my opinion that the Johnny-Alicia pairing was the single worst thing Byrne did for FF.

While I wasn't a fan of the Johny/Alicia dating, I thought that them getting married (which was happened during Steve Englehart's run on the book) was even worse. If Englehart didn't marry them, then there would have been any need for the whole Skrullicia/Lyja story.

[Monkey King]

I consider the FF one of my favorite comic titles, although I know I'm not reflective of the majority of comic readers today. (I hesitate to use the word passe, as others have mentioned.) The *concept* certainly seems to be getting mileage, ranging from things like The Incredibles to No Ordinary Family.

But I'll admit that it wasn't always this way. As a youngster, I was enthralled with the Avengers comics and the X-Men. The FF wasn't so much out of touch as it was *stagnant.* You could say it is supposed to be about "family" as much as you want, but that, to me, is not it's selling point. What Avengers and X-Men had at the time was *momentum.* Characters were constantly moving in and out, villains were always popping up in a variety of places, but by and large there was a sense of progression. For the FF? Not so much. For years, any time a creator came on board, it was to always go "back to basics!" And whenever they didn't (Englehart), they were forced to do so by the editors. So instead, there was a constant *regression* to the Fantastic Four. Forget saying that "family" is passe... it's the insistence that the sacred FAMILY can't grow and change that keeps the FF from being relevant.

When I finally got into the FF it was in DeFalco's run. It was moreso for the Paul Ryan art which I was into at the time, but it finally seemed like the FF were actually having some shake-ups and some momentum! Now things were going somewhere! I then took it on myself to read as much of the Stan and Jack stuff and the Byrne stuff, too. Wow! Here was a comic where things *happened!* Things were being constantly added to the Marvel Universe all the time, and even to the FF's Family! (Because, let's face it, you have to consider the entire EXTENDED family if you want to use it as a theme.)

So that's why I love Hickman's stuff right now. It has that same feel of momentum and of adding stuff to the Marvel Universe. Unfortunately, it's not at a pace that I would prefer, and the decompression is so great my head is about to explode... but I'm all for taking the FF into new areas and I hope the readership will follow, too.

[CyberCoyote]

I'll jump on the 'they don't appeal to super hero fans because they aren't portrayed as SUPER heroes' wagon. When's the last time the FF did anything impressive as far as superheroes go? In their OWN book they're a bunch of second raters, aside from Sue none of them seem to be much more effective than 'a guy with a gun'.. in the recent FF arc Ben is human again but the kids (who are the stars of the book, now) give him a gun.. because these days he's not intelligent or responsible enough to get a gun for himself.. juveniles need to provide him with firearms.. and he's standing side by side with Johnny against the invasion.

As noted, Reed uses his powers for getting coffee across the room and little else. That giant Transformers Anti-Galactus metroid armor thing.. which was designed BY himself FOR himself didn't even take into consideration that he's not limited to operating it like any other non-powered human. Anyone could have stood in that thing. If Reed Richards is gonna build an armor and the guy can snake through microcircuitry couldn't he really go hog wild and fit tons more gizmos into even a human sized armor than Stark ever could?

Up to and including his death Johnny's awesome power was tossing a fireball or two. All those other abilities he'd developed over the years went the way of the dodo. Fiery duplicates? Fire walls? ABSORBING heat to freeze things? Heck.. after Ben got the tar knocked out of him by the Hulk in the FF.. Johnny went 'Nova'.. it singed the Hulks eyebrows and barely did any damage to the area around him. Might as well have tossed a Molotov cocktail at old GreenGenes and hoped that would stop him.

And of course Ben's been relegated to a third rate punching bag.

So how are they supposed to be relevant when they're nothing but a group of people who sit around waiting for something to happen so they can refrain from actually using the powers that make them Fantastic to confront the foes? I guess the company felt the best option was to turn one into a sacrificial lamb and then focus the book on someone more popular (Spider-man) and a bunch of smart kids so the one thing they LET Reed do in the book can be mimicked by a bunch of other people in the book.

[HopeLantern]

And of course Ben's been relegated to a third rate punching bag.



I agree with all of CyberCoyote's points, but as a casual reader of FF, it does seem true that for Thing to be that strong and to be made of brick, he gets his @#$% handed to him a LOT. I can not seem to remember a fight where he clearly dominated an opponent. He seems to have no fighting skill and appears to rank on the lower end of the strength scale at least in the last few years. He should really be tossing people left and right. I would love for a writer to restore him to his rightful place as a dominate force in the MU, as opposed to "the guy you get when Hulk, Colossus and Gladiator are all busy".

[MichaelChen]

The *concept* certainly seems to be getting mileage, ranging from things like The Incredibles to No Ordinary Family.



Correction, half the concept is getting mileage: the family part. The explorer half is dead, no FF inspired group uses it. The Incredibles and No Ordinary's aren't explorers, they are about family angst and fighting villains who are supervillained-up versions of small mundane problems. Syndrome, for example, is corporate corruption personified.

Exploration is dead. Explorers on earth have become associated with racism and jingoism. Exploring space has become associated with dull silence and looking at rocks.

It's difficult to redesign the FF to fight supervillainified schoolyard bullies or corrupt corporations, so they are languishing.

[Brannon]

Correction, half
Exploration is dead. Explorers on earth have become associated with racism and jingoism. Exploring space has become associated with dull silence and looking at rocks.

It's difficult to redesign the FF to fight supervillainified schoolyard bullies or corrupt corporations, so they are languishing.

If that's the case then people are even more ignorant than I thought. Exploration = racism? How stupid can society get?

[Heroism]

Correction, half the concept is getting mileage: the family part. The explorer half is dead, no FF inspired group uses it. The Incredibles and No Ordinary's aren't explorers, they are about family angst and fighting villains who are supervillained-up versions of small mundane problems. Syndrome, for example, is corporate corruption personified.

Exploration is dead. Explorers on earth have become associated with racism and jingoism. Exploring space has become associated with dull silence and looking at rocks.

It's difficult to redesign the FF to fight supervillainified schoolyard bullies or corrupt corporations, so they are languishing.


I completely disagree with the thought that exploration is associated with racism and jingoism. That just sounds like intellectual mambo jambo (as opposed to sound thought). They're comic book superheroes......and cool ones at that!

Exploration of alternate universes and the unknown remain a large part of entertainment. There are also subterranean and aquatic zones that still haven't been explored by man. Badass potential in just these 4 forms of exploration. Add a bunch of villains and its the same as any comic - except it's the Fantastic Four, which is a bit different. To say that Fantastic Four can't be a defensive, and reactive force seems kind of short sighted too.

It's a comic book...they can explore anything or be anything. I just started reading the book and never have I even though "they are explorerers more than superheros"........in fact I still don't see them as explorers.

[ImmortalIronFist]

I actually think that since Hickman took over, FF is a better book than it's been in several years. I was never an FF fan before, but I'm hooked now.

[Monty_Cristo]

If that's the case then people are even more ignorant than I thought. Exploration = racism? How stupid can society get?

Justin Bieber and Sarah Palin are popular.

[xheight]

Correction, half the concept is getting mileage: the family part. The explorer half is dead, no FF inspired group uses it. The Incredibles and No Ordinary's aren't explorers, they are about family angst and fighting villains who are supervillained-up versions of small mundane problems. Syndrome, for example, is corporate corruption personified.

Exploration is dead. Explorers on earth have become associated with racism and jingoism. Exploring space has become associated with dull silence and looking at rocks.

It's difficult to redesign the FF to fight supervillainified schoolyard bullies or corrupt corporations, so they are languishing.

And here I thought the Family part was the problem - I just find bizarre that some says explorer and 19th cent. pith helmets come to mind. I find the Incredibles trite and played out and when I re-read my omnibus the family part isn't what get except as the bond that makes the dynamic work. Granted if much of the genre is about schoolyard bullies or corrupt corporations retooled as super-evil then what imaginitive about any of it. Or to the point, challenging the imagination is what the FF has done so well at its highest points and that where exploring comes to mind as pushing bounds and conventions - Galactus was mind blowing the first time around but defending Galactus was just as mind blowing because it challenged conventions of our world as much as the genre. Hack writing (DeFalco) has been the bane of the FF along with hack notions of drama and the bounds of morality, invention and science. Hickman at least seems to have broached some this if not quite found his way out of the problems he sets for himself.

[MRMIRACLE]

I agree with what a lot of you have said here, particularly about the explorer angle being either dead or ignored. I've sometimes thought it would have been cool if the FF expanded, becoming something more like what Busiek tried to do at DC with the Power Company. Of course, that would make them more like the Avengers, but that's ok since it seems like the Avengers have been trying to be the X-Men since 1990.

[Ebonyleopard]

FF vol2 (The relaunch after Heroes Return) I thought was great. The stories were fun, had some pretty impressive character moments, but slowed down in the recent years, particularly during the Millar run (the first time in years I actually stopped buying FF books). It picked back up a bit with the current writer but apparently not fast enough.

Of all titles negatively affected by Civil War, the FF was the biggest for a number of reasons. For one, it felt out of continunity with everything else that was going on in the Marvel U. It was the one title that really didn't get into the fray until much later in that story line and when it did it's impact was either so little (Sue/Johnny), Neutral (Ben), or made you look at them as sorta bad guys (Reed). Then you'd have thought they would have been the center stage with Secret Invasion (the Skrulls are so in their wheel house), but all they got was a mini-series, that had little impact on that overall story as well. Then during Dark Reign, which was like the opposite of the Illuninati again, they were so off doing their own thing, their stories had no connection to the rest of the Marvel U save for (again) a very forgetable mini-series.

Hopefully, this Future Foundation thing will finally start bring back the FF into the Marvel U as a whole (like they've been doing with Avengers), but somehow I have my doubts. For one, While Spider-man on this new team make's sense, due to his connection with the FF, it doesn't make a lot of sense so long as they keep Spidey on the Avengers as well as doing totally unrelated things in his own title. And frankly I think the FF makes a better fit for him than the Avengers do anyway (he's not very useful in the current Avengers books).

[Iron Maiden]

FF vol2 (The relaunch after Heroes Return) I thought was great. The stories were fun, had some pretty impressive character moments, but slowed down in the recent years, particularly during the Millar run (the first time in years I actually stopped buying FF books). It picked back up a bit with the current writer but apparently not fast enough.

Of all titles negatively affected by Civil War, the FF was the biggest for a number of reasons. For one, it felt out of continunity with everything else that was going on in the Marvel U. It was the one title that really didn't get into the fray until much later in that story line and when it did it's impact was either so little (Sue/Johnny), Neutral (Ben), or made you look at them as sorta bad guys (Reed). Then you'd have thought they would have been the center stage with Secret Invasion (the Skrulls are so in their wheel house), but all they got was a mini-series, that had little impact on that overall story as well. Then during Dark Reign, which was like the opposite of the Illuninati again, they were so off doing their own thing, their stories had no connection to the rest of the Marvel U save for (again) a very forgetable mini-series.

Hopefully, this Future Foundation thing will finally start bring back the FF into the Marvel U as a whole (like they've been doing with Avengers), but somehow I have my doubts. For one, While Spider-man on this new team make's sense, due to his connection with the FF, it doesn't make a lot of sense so long as they keep Spidey on the Avengers as well as doing totally unrelated things in his own title. And frankly I think the FF makes a better fit for him than the Avengers do anyway (he's not very useful in the current Avengers books).

Excellent post and you have touched upon some of the things I thought was taking the FF out of the list of "must have comics". CW gave them some very arbitrary divisions within the group, ones that JMS later admitted he disagreed with but that track was laid down by the CW architects. Again, I wholeheartedly agree with you about Secret Invasion....the FF were the first to encounter the Skrulls and heck, Johnny was married to one. Never mind the fact that Sue and Johnny's father was killed by the Skrulls. Yet they sat pretty much on the sidelines of the story. This should have hit them closer to home than what was shown. When Millar came on board he pretty much was disconnected with what was going on in other titles. He gave us the lackluster romance with Ben and Debbie and the MOD storyline which he didn't he finish himself and left to some else. The late Dwayne McDuffie's run was superior to his IMO and he was just asked to do it as a favor to give Millar/Hitch some lead time. I think they should have kept McDuffie instead.

[Majinoaw]

Justin Bieber and Sarah Palin are popular.

You dare sully us with a comment like this. You are as insignficant as the Fantastic Four.

[Blade X]

In regards to the whole "the FF are explorers, not superheroes" debate. You guys need to realize that the FF are superheroes who also happen to be explorers. The FF are not street patrolling/criminal hunting proactive superheroes, but are instead reactive problem solving type of superheroes. If they see a threat or crime in progress, they will stop it. They investigate strange occurrences and phenomenon (regardless if they are a threat or not).

[DrDoom616]

In regards to the whole "the FF are explorers, not superheroes" debate. You guys need to realize that the FF are superheroes who also happen to be explorers. The FF are not street patrolling/criminal hunting proactive superheroes, but are instead reactive problem solving type of superheroes. If they see a threat or crime in progress, they will stop it. They investigate strange occurrences and phenomenon (regardless if they are a threat or not).

They were actually explorers that just happened to gain Superhero Powers:biggrin:

[DrDoom616]

FF VOL 3 (The relaunch after Heroes Return) I thought was great. The stories were fun, had some pretty impressive character moments, but slowed down in the recent years, particularly during the Millar run (the first time in years I actually stopped buying FF books). It picked back up a bit with the current writer but apparently not fast enough.

Of all titles negatively affected by Civil War, the FF was the biggest for a number of reasons. For one, it felt out of continunity with everything else that was going on in the Marvel U. It was the one title that really didn't get into the fray until much later in that story line and when it did it's impact was either so little (Sue/Johnny), Neutral (Ben), or made you look at them as sorta bad guys (Reed). Then you'd have thought they would have been the center stage with Secret Invasion (the Skrulls are so in their wheel house), but all they got was a mini-series, that had little impact on that overall story as well. Then during Dark Reign, which was like the opposite of the Illuninati again, they were so off doing their own thing, their stories had no connection to the rest of the Marvel U save for (again) a very forgetable mini-series.

Hopefully, this Future Foundation thing will finally start bring back the FF into the Marvel U as a whole (like they've been doing with Avengers), but somehow I have my doubts. For one, While Spider-man on this new team make's sense, due to his connection with the FF, it doesn't make a lot of sense so long as they keep Spidey on the Avengers as well as doing totally unrelated things in his own title. And frankly I think the FF makes a better fit for him than the Avengers do anyway (he's not very useful in the current Avengers books).

Just fixed this for you :biggrin:

[Ebonyleopard]

Just fixed this for you :biggrin:

Oh right, I Guess the Heros Reborn story by Jim Lee would technically be considered FF vol.2 Good call.

[MRMIRACLE]

This occurred to me as I was looking at the posts abut Why You Like Marvel and DC. Perhaps part of the FF's problems is that their underlying purpose isn't all that compelling anymore.

If you look at the recurring themes/origins of Marvel's most successful characters, most of them have some reason that practically demands that they put on the spandex. Spiderman, Iron Man, Moon Knight, Dr. Strange and (to a lesser extent) Thor, were all seeking to make restitution. Captain America simply doesn't know any other way to live (having been a soldier for all of his adult life), and Wolverine (in the beginning) didn't remember living any other way. Black Panther is defending his kingdom. Daredevil is trying to get even. Hulk is a hunted creature. The X-Men are trying to limit persecution of their kind.

Most of DC's characters on the other hand tend to be motivated by something much closer to noblese oblige. Nobody made Green Lantern use the ring, or Flash help people with his speed. Several of those have since been retrofitted with more compelling reasons (i.e. Green Lantern's need for redemption in collections like Emerald Dawn and New Frontier). There are exceptions (such as Batman, the silver-age Hawkman or the Spectre), but for the most part, they're just "doing what's right". There's nothing wrong with that, but it robs them of some dramatic possibilities.

The FF had a compelling reason in the beginning. The Cold War/Space-Race was a serious issue back in '61. More, Reed was driven into space by his ambitions, and driven to continue his research by what was done to Ben. All of those reasons, however, became moot. As Thing became resigned to his existence, and the drive to explore become less a matter of life and death, it's like the FF's reason to exist just disappeared. Maybe that's why it's been so hard for them to remain at the front of the comics world.

[Petes12]

It's not the 60s anymore and family isn't cool. i think ff tends to come off as a book about your mom and dad and weird uncles as superheroes.

anyway thats not a knock against the comics that are actually coming out, hickman's run is awesome. it's just kind of the image they've been saddled with.

[DeadXMan]

It's not the 60s anymore and family isn't cool. i think ff tends to come off as a book about your mom and dad and weird uncles as superheroes.

anyway thats not a knock against the comics that are actually coming out, hickman's run is awesome. it's just kind of the image they've been saddled with.

the incredables and no ordinary family begs to differ

[Petes12]

the incredables and no ordinary family begs to differ

yeah like that show is getting another season...

it's not meant to be an insult I'm just stating why they haven't been as popular. most comic readers are in their 20s or whatever, and we generally like to read about people around our age.

[vintagepaper]

[long post for a topic that has gotten long fast]

I think the point about exploration is the biggest one to why FF is passe. Early Marvel clearly looked like the Marvel Monsters era (look at FF#1's cover and villains, and not to mention the Skrulls in #2 & Super-Apes look like they belong in that era) and had some airs of the occult/sci-fi/suspense anthology era (I was Bitten by the Radioactive Spider!, Rip Van Superwinklesoldier, I was a Teen-age Mutant!, You Wouldn't Like Me When I'm Angry!) until they had time to develop that classic superhero & supervillain veneer.

FF's premise came most directly from that '50s era than the other heroes and it stayed. Look at how X-Men evolved, Spider-Man too. FF were mostly premiere heroes & scientists who explore space & different dimensions and make scientific breakthroughs. Of the Marvel Universe, they are like the ambassadors from Earth or official envoy (besides Prof. X's winter getaways to Shi'ar space). People were really into exploration back in the 50s & 60s. Also, sci-fi had an optimistic vision of technology and progress when it wasn't telling cautionary tales (it turned dystopian somewhere around Planet of the Apes, Star Trek bucking the trend), and grim and gritty sells over clean and sparkling overall (easier material to work with too for drama and shocking(TM) plot twists).

Nowadays, nobody gives a shit about exploration or space. Back in 1981 when the space shuttle launched, everyone was still very into space. I dunno if it was Challenger or that most people only gave a damn about space because of nationalistic reasons and not because humans expanding a presence off the planet was inherently cool (which would mean people stopped caring about space once the Soviet Union couldn't compete in the space race). Back in the early-mid '80s at least, astronauts were still cool and that 1 amazing photo I think came from 1983 (the classic stock photo for astronauts in space). It's not the lack of life on Mars; people stopped caring long before then (Clinton's speech outside "hey look, they found some fossilized microbes from Mars possibly" didn't get a reaction except from those of us who are kind of space nerds). Spirit & Opportunity (+ Odyssey? [the thing orbiting Mars]) have done amazing things on Mars, yet do they hold the same presence in the public consciousness as Voyager or Viking?

(Maybe the only way to sell space exploration is like this: "We have intelligence indicating Martians exist... and they have WMDs. A reliable source in Cydonia has provided proof of yellowcake uranium acquisitions and an extensive stock of adamantium. And Mars has been putting its red kryptonite into centrifuges too. We must keep vigiliant of UFOs and suspicious looking little green men. Oh, and they are part of a Zenith of Villainy with Uranus and Alpha Centauri, so we better develop speed-of-light engines to get there.")

Space has shifted to probes (Cassini, that Jupiter one, the Mars ones) & rovers, and telescopes (Hubble). Most people seem to only care about people, man on the Moon, astronauts riding a space shuttle. And there is little nationalism glory in space, only science, until quicker means of getting to Mars become available. Obviously there are more important things than vanity projects like space, but for the investment, Hubble and those rovers (and Cassini too) have turned out a lot of discoveries over a span of years. At least *some* space stuff can be active at any time (but they need to get their math right. Hello Mars probe not in metric or Japanese Venus probe that got the trajectory a little off), but alas, people are more interested in Charlie Sheen than Cassini, Justin Bieber than Saturn, their latest tv show's rumors than Mars.

That covers the 1960s, 70s, and part of the 80s, when FF seemed to do great to pretty good. It seems FF became stagnant when interest in space declined and X-Men really started surging in popularity. Status quo is the other big issue besides the exploration= out of touch aspect. For as many years as they've been around, besides the 1960s (marriage & birth), FF hasn't changed as much from 1970 on as the other titles that go back that far. While X-Men established so many team members, they've done well even when Prof X & the original 5 weren't on the team (1986-1991). FF is tied to having a fixed team. That may be the problem. They can swap one out, but swap out 3 and it's only a remnant of the former FF and might alienate FF fans. That said, they might be able to swap out 2 at a time.

I think FFs uncoolness comes down to:
1) exploration/science motif being out of touch
2) status quo= lack of possibilities to entice the imagination of readers (you know it's going to be Mr.F, IW, HT, and Thing at the Baxter Building in any given time frame)
3) Perception of team as a family and maybe issues with Fantastic (see below)

----------
It's weird because FF has a very impressive rogues' gallery. Most aren't major villains (Annihilus got big recently) but they are quite varied and diverse. From Earth-based to cosmic to every dimension possible seemingly. But among their gallery, they have perhaps the #1 all-time Marvel villain, Red Ghost and his Super-Apes! (just kidding), Dr. Doom (this is coming from an X-Men and Spider-Man fan. Magneto only seemed to rise to that top tier in the '90s. Before he was just at the Dr. Octopus level, a big villain for that hero/team. Dr. Doom's fought everyone and been an active threat in every decade since the 1960s. I'm saying he might hold the all-time average, not necessarily the greatest single act of villainy or greatest batte of all) and the one usually considered the most impressive or biggest threat usually, Galactus. When Galactus comes, usually the reader pauses for a moment. His very presence has weight. It's his cosmic history, him being the only real one among all the intangible deities (Eternity, Living Tribunal, etc etc) that's a discernable individual, and FF#48-50 being among the top set of best all-time comic stories.

Villains may steal the stage for a moment (Thanos had a crowning moment of awesome), but these have kept most of their villainous potential since their creation. They can tap any number of villains for a story. X-Men by contrast seems to favor boom & bust villains (Adversary, Stryfe, Onslaught, Factor Three, D'Ken, Dark Phoenix, Bastion, etc) more than fixtures (Magneto, Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister). Part of what makes Batman so prominent is besides a cool character, he has an impressive rogues gallery of some big names and a diverse pool to pick from. If Batman just had like, Joker and Mr. Freeze and a bunch of third-string villains, how big would he be? FF, based on readers, seems to have the hero part be weak, not quite the villains.

------------
As for family, nuclear family this, postmodern family that... it's all a debate for sociology, not really everything else. Now just as in the 90s, 60s, and earlier, family is still important to people. The nuclear family declined not because suddenly, marriage and kids were uncool but because out of wedlock pregnancies and divorcing spouses you've come to despise has become more socially permissible. People couldn't divorce or had to 'keep up appearances'. And as noted, the nuclear family is Reed, Sue, and Franklin. With the 'cool' brother(-in-law) Johnny (did he teach Franklin about playing with matches?) & best buddy Ben, it looks more like a sitcom family than a nuclear one (more like Full House with Johnny & Ben as Joey & John Stamos).

Fantastic Four... I don't think the number is the stigma, I think it's the adjective (or whatever it is). Fantastic is getting to be pretty old. It's only a bit fresher than splendid and stupendous. Awesome, amazing, incredible, spectacular seem to still hold. Uncanny... yeah, that's kind of the exception. Might just be it sounds right saying X-Men with Uncanny to most people. Had they named it the Splendid X-Men, I suspect it would still sell well and seem unnatural to not use it with Splendid. (That said, why wasn't Stupendous used with Hulk? The word has the look of stupid + powerful, which are the 2 definining attributes of Hulk)

And I think they've had 5 members a few times before. When 1 original returns, the replacement usually hung around for a while in uniform going on adventures before leaving. It's easier to find X-Men roster changes (Avenger is cluttered by the different statuses) than FF roster changes. I think it's that outside view that the lineup *never* changes because in any given year in the 50 since they premiered (who smells a Human Torch return for the 50th anniversary?) it's the same 4. Offhand, there was Crystal (a few times?), Medusa, She-Hulk, and that She-Thing.

If they wanted to shake it up, they can go from the Greek elemental model (water=Mr. Fantastic, air= Invisible Woman, fire= Human Torch, earth= Thing) to the Asian model (water, fire, earth, wood, metal) or the Captain Planet model (earth, fire, wind, water, and heart).

[MRMIRACLE]

[long post for a topic that has gotten long fast]

If they wanted to shake it up, they can go from the Greek elemental model (water=Mr. Fantastic, air= Invisible Woman, fire= Human Torch, earth= Thing) to the Asian model (water, fire, earth, wood, metal) or the Captain Planet model (earth, fire, wind, water, and heart).

DC tried that with one of their Challenger of the Unknown retreads. Didn't work so well for them.

One thing I wonder, the FF has usually had a good bounce back when there was a "getting the band back together" riff. They "killed" Reed and things improved when he returned. Reed and Sue left the team (twice) and things got better when they got back (although if there's going to be a sub, you can't do better than the Black Panther). How long do you think it will be before Johnny's back and we're back to the Fantastic Four?

[Ravin' Ray]

Assuming that Hickman will allow the title to revert to "Fantastic Four" while he's at the helm. For all we know he'll just give us an "FF #12/Fantastic Four #600" re-titling/re-numbering as a one-off just to satisfy the historicity, then revert to "FF #13" next issue.

[erzan]

Exploration of space, science and technology doesn't sell? be right back...

As 2011, the Oscar winning film holds a 94% approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Grossing $385,680,446.
Film: Star Trek

The nuclear family don't appeal to anyone? be right back...

As 2011, the Oscar winning film holds a 97% approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Grossing a mere $631,442,0926.
Film: The Incredibles

Lets not try to blame the audience and the era we are in. This is very lazy and gives writers a chance to blame 'the times we are in'. Allowing them to not be held accountable for simply having uninteresting characters and themes for the public. The constant comments that were being made about the Incredibles, from critics and others. Is that this was everything the Fantastic Four film wasn't. Fun, smart, interesting.

When people watched the Incredibles they saw a very cool middle aged dad that kicked ass. When you read the FF and watch the film, they see a very boring middle age man called Reed. Adults and children alike were able to connect to things their counterparts were saying and acting. Nothing can beat that, it was very entertaining.

The challenge for the writers is to combine what the two films do great at.

[Brannon]

I don't think any of us are NOT blaming the creators. There hasn't been a sustained vision (though there have been some good moments) for the team since Byrne had his 5 year run.

But I can't help but notice comments like--"Fantastic is a stupid word that's uncool now", "American's don't care about exploration and progression anymore", "A family, even a dysfunctional one, isn't interesting anymore"

These sorts of comments make us "seem" like a vapid, myopic, dull people who have forgotten how to have fun. It's depressing...

[MichaelChen]

Exploration of space, science and technology doesn't sell? be right back...
As 2011, the Oscar winning film holds a 94% approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Grossing $385,680,446.
Film: Star Trek


Really, that was about exploring and science? No, that was about a terrorist analogue getting his, and the bromance between an orphan party-boy daredevil, and an angsty biracial science-nerd. There was no exploring in that movie. Science fiction movies these days only sell when the science is an extremely thin mask covering a story about very local problems.

[Petes12]

Exploration of space, science and technology doesn't sell? be right back...

As 2011, the Oscar winning film holds a 94% approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Grossing $385,680,446.
Film: Star Trek

The nuclear family don't appeal to anyone? be right back...

As 2011, the Oscar winning film holds a 97% approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Grossing a mere $631,442,0926.
Film: The Incredibles

Lets not try to blame the audience and the era we are in. This is very lazy and gives writers a chance to blame 'the times we are in'. Allowing them to not be held accountable for simply having uninteresting characters and themes for the public. The constant comments that were being made about the Incredibles, from critics and others. Is that this was everything the Fantastic Four film wasn't. Fun, smart, interesting.

When people watched the Incredibles they saw a very cool middle aged dad that kicked ass. When you read the FF and watch the film, they see a very boring middle age man called Reed. Adults and children alike were able to connect to things their counterparts were saying and acting. Nothing can beat that, it was very entertaining.

The challenge for the writers is to combine what the two films do great at.
Incredibles was a kids movie with 2 kids in it. easiest character to relate to for new readers is going to be one they can see themselves as. which probably makes spider-man a good choice for the team for now.

I'm just being realistic here. We live in a world where Loeb's Ultimatum and Hulk were top sellers.

[Petes12]

oh, and it doesn't help that they're never the focus of an event the way avengers or x-men are.

[Kayel]

I definitely think the science aspect of the book turns alot of people off most of the time. Especially when Hickman writes it, i barely understand what the hell reed or valeria are talking about sometimes.

[vintagepaper]

^
That might be turning readers off recently, but what about earlier when FF started to decline, like the 90s? I don't recall it reading like an astrophysics paper or auction-speed technobabble-fest back then.

[Joe Franklin]

It's because Ben is awesome, but Johnny, Sue, and Reed suck, as do the Richard's children. When only one of the characters in the comic is half way interesting, it's bound to get very passe.

There is a reason this short lived version of the New Aurthur Adams F4 sold so well. :wink:

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/fantastic-four/348-1.jpg

[GrimReminder]

Don't know why FF has fallen by the wayside, but I for one love Hickman's run. I just speaks well to me, and the last issue was amazing. I think Future Foundation will bring back that Jack Kirby/Byrne style that you guys seem to adore, but he will make it modern and appealing to today's readers. I look forward to it, and I fill be picking F.F. #1 day 1 with no hesitation.

[tolworthy]

Perhaps part of the FF's problems is that their underlying purpose isn't all that compelling anymore.

warning: personal opinion and bias ahead!

I think their underlying purpose has been abandoned.

The FF was a family drama, on a cosmic scale. Read any family drama and you will see constant change: change and love are the only constants. The first 27 years of the FF (1961-1988, from issue 1 to 321) can be seen as one continuous story of change and growth: Ben's search for identity, climaxing in 296 and 304; Reed's attempts to be Mr Perfect, climaxing in 200 and how it then unraveled; Johnny's maturing from immature teenager to man; Sues attempt to have Reed put the family first, and her final success in 307; the Crystal romance; Reed and Sue's marriage - from dating to honeymoon to crisis to new start; Franklin being born and starting to grow up; Franklin Storm's death, etc., etc. This was probably the greatest single story in the history of comics.

(Details.) (http://enterthestory.com/fantastic_four.html)

All development ended circa 1988. The bigger story was over. The unfolding family drama is over. Since 1988 the title has had nowhere to go. It is a book without a purpose.

[Hegelund]

I've never found the FF interesting before Hickman took over. Why so? It's quite simple actually:
-Their stories read mostly like a Gold- or Silver Age comic.
-They're pretty much locked in the same stories with the same foes and same topics.
-No writer, barring Hickman, has been able to fully utilize the characters, since Byrne left. As has been stated before, they are but knockoffs.

Obviously these are my own opinions, and have no objectivity.

[Kayel]

I thought Mark Millar was off to a great start in his run during his first couple of arcs but then it ended up just trailing off into absurdity with the whole "Master of Doom" thing.

[Ravin' Ray]

Well, the Fantastic Four is no more; but the Future Foundation is now entering the real-world; via official T-shirts, that is. It was inevitable, but I'm surprised it's this early. Then again, with the advertorial at the end of Fan Four #588, I shouldn't be. I expect Marvel to provide participating comic store staff with those T-shirts for the March launch of FF#1.
http://marvel.com/news/story/15310/join_the_future_foundation
http://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel/i/mg/f/20/4d7013edb5fbf/detail.jpg

[destro]

warning: personal opinion and bias ahead!

I think their underlying purpose has been abandoned.

The FF was a family drama, on a cosmic scale. Read any family drama and you will see constant change: change and love are the only constants. The first 27 years of the FF (1961-1988, from issue 1 to 321) can be seen as one continuous story of change and growth: Ben's search for identity, climaxing in 296 and 304; Reed's attempts to be Mr Perfect, climaxing in 200 and how it then unraveled; Johnny's maturing from immature teenager to man; Sues attempt to have Reed put the family first, and her final success in 307; the Crystal romance; Reed and Sue's marriage - from dating to honeymoon to crisis to new start; Franklin being born and starting to grow up; Franklin Storm's death, etc., etc. This was probably the greatest single story in the history of comics.

(Details.) (http://enterthestory.com/fantastic_four.html)

All development ended circa 1988. The bigger story was over. The unfolding family drama is over. Since 1988 the title has had nowhere to go. It is a book without a purpose.



I very much agree with this. Their story has run it's course, because nothing will ever be allowed to really grow or change except for brief periods before the status quo comes back. And they are saddled with a kid that can never truly grow. I know he was kind of aged up a couple of years not too long ago, but I don't know if that will last.

I'd like to see Reed and Sue go into semi-retirement, just being parents and becoming kind of parental figures to younger heroes. Ben should go solo since he has always been the most appealing member of the team.

[erzan]

Really, that was about exploring and science? No, that was about a terrorist analogue getting his, and the bromance between an orphan party-boy daredevil, and an angsty biracial science-nerd. There was no exploring in that movie. Science fiction movies these days only sell when the science is an extremely thin mask covering a story about very local problems.Hey I never said Science and exploration have to be 'thickly masked' over the story. In fact I like others have pointed out, get put off by the crazy science mambo jumbo too. Of course the themes of science and exploration took a backseat to other more relatable themes, but that is what the modern audience wants. Either give it to them, get higher sales or don't and stop complaining.


Incredibles was a kids movie with 2 kids in it. easiest character to relate to for new readers is going to be one they can see themselves as. which probably makes spider-man a good choice for the team for now.

I'm just being realistic here. We live in a world where Loeb's Ultimatum and Hulk were top sellers.Well kids are one part of the equation, but what about teens and adults? The Incredibles did well and captured a wide audience. It won over the family crowd. It got 27% at rotten tomatoes and well its having a reboot, enough said.