Question about restaurant tips

[Rasputin9977]

I'm just curious about this. WI never carry cash with me so when I eat at a restaurant I write down the tip on the credit card receipt. I've always wondered how do waiters/waitress/servers/bussers/etc feel when they don't see a cash tip on the table? How do these people receive their tip when it is written down on a credit card receipt? Are they informed when they are given a tip via credit card?

[Michael P]

If you've paid with a credit card, they're probably half expecting a tip that way, too. And trust me, they check the bill to see if you've written anything in there. If you haven't, expect saliva in your food next time you eat there.

How they get the money depends on the restaurants. A lot of restaurants have computer systems that will keep track of the overage and let the manager know at the end of the night how much extra they're owed. They might get it in cash right then, or it might be added to their next paycheck. (If the latter, they get taxed on it, which is why a lot of waiters prefer to get tips in cash regardless of how you pay for the food.)

[Donald M.]

How do these people receive their tip when it is written down on a credit card receipt?

I can't answer most of your questions having never worked in a restaurant, but (and someone with firsthand knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong) tips are pooled and shared amongst the wait staff, so any amount you tip via credit card would just be added to the pool.

[Michael P]

I can't answer most of your questions having never worked in a restaurant, but (and someone with firsthand knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong) tips are pooled and shared amongst the wait staff, so any amount you tip via credit card would just be added to the pool.

It depends. No place I ever worked pooled tips, but other places do.

[Matt Algren]

I always give a cash tip. Don't leave it on the table, though; if you pay with a credit card, give them the cash when you give them the card. That way they know what's up instead of jumping to conclusions, and there's no chance of the busser or a customer taking the tip off the table. (Which I've seen happen.)

I figure cash is better because a) like Michael said they get it now instead of waiting till payday, and b) they're in control of how much tip gets reported on their taxes.

[The Black Guardian]

At the restaurants I worked, I was immediately given the tip in cash when I brought the recipt to the cash register. I never worked at a restaurant that pooled tips either.

[dupont2005]

I can't answer most of your questions having never worked in a restaurant, but (and someone with firsthand knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong) tips are pooled and shared amongst the wait staff, so any amount you tip via credit card would just be added to the pool.

Out here they don't do that. But the waitress does tip out her busboy, bar tender, and hostess

[StoneGold]

If you've paid with a credit card, they're probably half expecting a tip that way, too. And trust me, they check the bill to see if you've written anything in there. If you haven't, expect saliva in your food next time you eat there.

Which is why the trick is to never eat at the same place twice in a year.

[Sabrina_Fried]

I've never worked in a restaurant myself, but around here the general rule seems to be tip using the same method you used to pay for the meal. So if you pay in cash, tip in cash. If you use credit or debit to pay, they now have devices where they bring the authorization machine right to your table, and it has a special subscreen where you can enter a tip. The amount you decided to tip is printed on both copies of the receipt, and I guess the restaurant has a way of figuring out how to make sure that money (eventually) gets to the servers and the rest of the staff.

[Cthulhudrew]

Every restaurant I've ever worked at (and I've worked several), we would close out the bills ourselves, so we knew how the bill was being paid, and how much (if any) tip we received- be it cash or credit.

Never really worried about whether I saw cash on the table or not, unless I knew they'd paid cash and I didn't see anything (at which point, I knew I got stiffed).

Again, though, key point is that servers close out their own checks, so they know how much they're receiving in tips. As Michael P points out, anything that is a credit tip will automatically factor into a server's cashout at the end of the night (well, mostly, depending on where you work), and you're supposed to claim at least 15% of what you make, so it often is better to get a cash tip than credit, for tax reasons.

I've never worked anywhere that pooled tips, although I have known servers and places that did so- but it's very rare (and usually only in bars). Servers do have to tip out their bussers, and- where applicable- bar staff, food runner(s), and occasionally/rarely hosts, which they do out of their total end of the night tips.

(EDIT: On occasion, depending on the laziness/business of a particular server, someone else may end up dropping the bill on the table, cashing it out, and/or the customer may take it to the register. Either way, in most cases the bill is still in that server's name, so any credit tips will go to them when it closes, and the person closing it out would/should give the tip to the server.)

[tangentman]

Just make sure that you leave the copy with the signed tip in the server's hand. If you take that copy home, and leave an unsigned copy at the table, the server loses that tip. More importantly, make sure that you don't take BOTH copies with you! Finicky restaurant managers may take that money out of the server's end-of-the-night cash.

[tangentman]

Which is why the trick is to never eat at the same place twice in a year.

Spoken like someone who should swallow server spit.

[StoneGold]

Spoken like someone who should swallow server spit.

Then the server should do their fucking job, instead of getting my burger 40 minutes later.


Sorry, but when the service sucks? There's not supposed to be a tip. And odds are, I stop going to that restaurant for a while.

[Matt Algren]

Sure, why not. We haven't had this thread in a while now.

[tangentman]

Then the server should do their fucking job, instead of getting my burger 40 minutes later.


Are you one of "those" customers who orders a well-done burger and then complains about the extra time it takes?



Sorry, but when the service sucks? There's not supposed to be a tip. And odds are, I stop going to that restaurant for a while.

Sure, getting any order 40 minutes late is inexcusable. However, a ton of douchebags have no problem dining out, running the hell out of a server, then chuckling as they leave a few coins or NOTHING on the table for someone who's just worked his/her ass off. It's also my experience that people who don't like tipping are accomplished experts at coming up with excuse lists to rationalize poor customer habits...or, in other words, just being a stingy ass.

[The Black Guardian]

Which is why the trick is to never eat at the same place twice in a year.
Sounds like more trouble than it's worth.

[thespianphryne]

Spoken like someone who should swallow server spit.

I'm glad you can spot a tongue-in cheek comment when you see one.

Ease up, there, dude.

[Nick Soapdish]

Are you one of "those" customers who orders a well-done burger and then complains about the extra time it takes?



Sure, getting any order 40 minutes late is inexcusable. However, a ton of douchebags have no problem dining out, running the hell out of a server, then chuckling as they leave a few coins or NOTHING on the table for someone who's just worked his/her ass off. It's also my experience that people who don't like tipping are accomplished experts at coming up with excuse lists to rationalize poor customer habits...or, in other words, just being a stingy ass.

And sometimes, the service just sucks.

I went to a restaurant with a large group, but with reservations and it took them 45 minutes to get us menus and water. It was about another hour until we got food. If I wasn't with a bunch of co-workers, I would've walked out ages ago.

Sometimes, the server deserves to get stiffed on a tip. Since it was a large group, I think that they still got their 18% automatic, but I wouldn't have had a problem with leaving off the tip.

[Dr. Shouts]

Spoken like someone who should swallow server spit.


Then the server should do their fucking job, instead of getting my burger 40 minutes later.


Sorry, but when the service sucks? There's not supposed to be a tip. And odds are, I stop going to that restaurant for a while.


And sometimes, the service just sucks.

I went to a restaurant with a large group, but with reservations and it took them 45 minutes to get us menus and water. It was about another hour until we got food. If I wasn't with a bunch of co-workers, I would've walked out ages ago.

Sometimes, the server deserves to get stiffed on a tip. Since it was a large group, I think that they still got their 18% automatic, but I wouldn't have had a problem with leaving off the tip.

Nick Soapdish and StoneGold, I 100% agree with you. I've worked at restaurants and seen it on the internet and other places: servers constantly complaining about bad tips but never talking about lousy service. I've had terrible service from restaurants, and it seems like servers are either unaware or fully aware of it, but wanna act uppity about a tip. And they have the audacity to say, "If you tip badly then I'll mess up your food". What bullshit.

I used to host when I was in college, and I saw servers who gave the most lackluster service (at best) and then have the gall to complain about the tip. They'd be slow, not smiling, unattentive, taking smoke breaks while to food was ready to be served, mess up the order, and have an attitude. I hated being a host because so many servers were lazy. They'd say, "Don't put anyone at my table. I have enough" Or "I'm gonna take a smoke break". And then they'd take a long smoke break while people were complaining to me about not being able to be seated at an open table they could see with their own eyes. Other times servers would moan to me about not seating them enough.

The whole concept of tipping is ridiculous. I could go on and on about it, but I've just decided to eat at a sitdown restaurant on occasion (I haven't done it in years) and eat homecooked meals or take out. Still, I hate it when take out people expect a bill. I went to Applebee's to pick up to go and after giving a tip the lady says, "Do you want your change?" Of course, I wanted my change. I'm not gonna give someone money just for handing me my food. That's just way too much b.s. right there.

Rant over.

[MNM]

Never really worried about whether I saw cash on the table or not, unless I knew they'd paid cash and I didn't see anything (at which point, I knew I got stiffed).




.or, in other words, just being a stingy ass.

I hate this attitude. You have not been "stiffed" if someone hasnt tipped. and not tipping isnt about being stingy.

You get paid for doing your job. You dont get a lot? Tough, I have my own financial concerns to worry about rather than pad out your pay packet. But I am not about to give you free, extra money just because you waited at my table.

And the idea that if you dont tip its fine for servers to spit in your food etc..? How pathetic are you people who agree with that?

People are not entitled to, and shouldnt expect, a tip just because they did their job.

[Matt Algren]

I hate this attitude. You have not been "stiffed" if someone hasnt tipped. and not tipping isnt about being stingy.

You get paid for doing your job. You dont get a lot? Tough, I have my own financial concerns to worry about rather than pad out your pay packet. But I am not about to give you free, extra money just because you waited at my table.

And the idea that if you dont tip its fine for servers to spit in your food etc..? How pathetic are you people who agree with that?

People are not entitled to, and shouldnt expect, a tip just because they did their job.
Except that that's the accepted social norm, at least in the US. Wait staff are often paid less than minimum wage because the law presumes that tips will make up the difference and then some.

You may not like that system, and I may not like that system, but that's the system we have.

Here's a fun compromise! Why not tell the waiter/waitress that you won't be tipping them before they give you the menu. At least then everybody's on the same page before they go out of their way to get you extra water.

[Jerry W. Loper]

I have a method that I must admit is a bit on the stingy side. If the actual price of my meal is less than $10, I'll tip $1; if the actual price is more than $10, I'll tip $2. (I practically never buy a meal that costs more than $20, I'd hope I'd tip more than $2 for a $20 plus meal.) Nowadays I think that a decent tip is supposed to be 15 to 20% of what the price of the meal is.

[Rasputin9977]

I think I will keep on writing tje tip on the receipt then. I do believe in tipping but I also believe in paying taxes. I tip even when I receive lousy service. I used to date a chef and had a buddy that waited tables. They both said that sometimes bad service can come from the kitchen or elsewhere and it just spills out to the waiters.

[Shawn Hopkins]

I always tip generously, but I also almost never carry cash, so this has kind of worried me. Mostly because I generally eat at places where the server gives you your bill and you take it to the register to pay. They don't see me write the tip, the cashier does. So I wonder if the servers think I'm an asshole, or if they somehow do see the tip and go "hey, this guy tipped five bucks" at the end of the day.

[FanboyStranger]

I worked in the restaraunt industry for several years, and I can tell you that tips are responsible for about 90% of a server's income. Service is one of the few industries that is permitted to have an hourly rate beneath the federal minimum. Obviously, gratuity is not required and I agree that you should never reward poor service, but if the server has done a good job, you should always tip at least 15%. (Personally, I tip around 20%, but like I said, I worked that kind of job for awhile. If someone is really attentive or good, I may tip 25% or so.) Also, it doesn't really matter if you tip on a credit card or in cash, but I've never in my life met someone who doesn't the prefer the cash.

[Kusanagi]

As someone currently working as a server. Some thoughts on this thread.

On the Original question

Every place I've worked out, the money written on credit card slips is subtracted from the money received from Cash outs. For example at the end of the night if Guests paid $200 cash on food, and others left $50 on credit card tips, I would give the restaurant $150. So most places (at least chain places) servers see that money at the end of the night anyway. As for on the registers that I don't know. I've heard different variants on that one.

I actually prefer credit cards as they're easier to keep track of than a couple hundred singles from cash tips.

On the bad customers/bad servers thing.

They're both true, duh. Some people are assholes, that's just a fact of life, whether they're severs or customers.

On that teenagers should be forced to pay a gratuity at sit down restaurants.

Teenagers suck...that hasn't been mentioned in the thread, but I just feel the need to say it. :tongue:

On tipping

15% Good service.
20% Great service.
10% Difficulties, but server made sure to make things right, sometimes shit is just out of their control.
0% Complete fuck up from beginning to end, and not the least bit apologetic.

[Donald M.]

I always tip generously, but I also almost never carry cash, so this has kind of worried me. Mostly because I generally eat at places where the server gives you your bill and you take it to the register to pay. They don't see me write the tip, the cashier does. So I wonder if the servers think I'm an asshole, or if they somehow do see the tip and go "hey, this guy tipped five bucks" at the end of the day.

I always tip cash myself, though I often worry that someone else will take it before the server gets to it. I suppose that does happen sometimes because people can be assholes.

I would never stiff a server unless the service was really awful. So far I've never gotten service bad enough that I felt I shouldn't leave a tip, though I don't eat out that often.

[Gary_B]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTbAqwTIJXw-GJXng7qRuhqjaaGJcZTdjoUhWavZEwI5fWwVe81


MR. PINK: I don't tip because society says I gotta. I tip when somebody deserves a tip. When somebody really puts forth an effort, they deserve a little something extra. But this tipping automatically, that shit's for the birds. As far as I'm concerned, they're just doin their job.

[The Black Guardian]

Another thing is that often, when the food is late, it's more the fault of the kitchen than the server. So I wouldn't jump to punishing them. The servers should only be judged by the quality of their service.

When I tip, I tend to default to 20%. They get more if great, less if less than average. And I always round up to the dollar (ceiling). No coins. I think I would need to actually be treated rudely to not leave any tip (and this has happened maybe 2-3 times in my life).

[ChadH]

I'm just curious about this. WI never carry cash with me so when I eat at a restaurant I write down the tip on the credit card receipt. I've always wondered how do waiters/waitress/servers/bussers/etc feel when they don't see a cash tip on the table? How do these people receive their tip when it is written down on a credit card receipt? Are they informed when they are given a tip via credit card?
Why don't you just go ahead and ask the server how they would prefer to receive the tip? I've done this in the past and the person really seemed appreciate the consideration.

[howyadoin]

Sure, why not. We haven't had this thread in a while now.I like the fact that no matter how many times we have it, the cheapskates never cease to come up with increasingly-complex justifications for their cheapness.

[Werehunter]

As someone who has worked in restaurants, I expect the same level service that I gave. If I can give that service, so can someone else if they wanted. When I have good service, I tip really well. However if I get bad service I don't tip well at all and if it's extremely bad service there will be no tip and I'll talk to the manager. Oh and another thing, don't let me see you yelling at another employee in public because they help us out. I'll give the tip to that other employee instead of you.

I also think that the fact society has allowed wait staff and others at restaurants to be paid so little and created an expectation of tipping is bullshit. In the end we pay about the same, so might as well pay more for the food and ensure the waiters get paid fairly.

[gaetanomontera]

Nick Soapdish and StoneGold, I 100% agree with you. I've worked at restaurants and seen it on the internet and other places: servers constantly complaining about bad tips but never talking about lousy service. I've had terrible service from restaurants, and it seems like servers are either unaware or fully aware of it, but wanna act uppity about a tip. And they have the audacity to say, "If you tip badly then I'll mess up your food". What bullshit.

I used to host when I was in college, and I saw servers who gave the most lackluster service (at best) and then have the gall to complain about the tip. They'd be slow, not smiling, unattentive, taking smoke breaks while to food was ready to be served, mess up the order, and have an attitude. I hated being a host because so many servers were lazy. They'd say, "Don't put anyone at my table. I have enough" Or "I'm gonna take a smoke break". And then they'd take a long smoke break while people were complaining to me about not being able to be seated at an open table they could see with their own eyes. Other times servers would moan to me about not seating them enough.

The whole concept of tipping is ridiculous. I could go on and on about it, but I've just decided to eat at a sitdown restaurant on occasion (I haven't done it in years) and eat homecooked meals or take out. Still, I hate it when take out people expect a bill. I went to Applebee's to pick up to go and after giving a tip the lady says, "Do you want your change?" Of course, I wanted my change. I'm not gonna give someone money just for handing me my food. That's just way too much b.s. right there.

Rant over.

If you were a host for any significant amount of time, then you probably also knew plenty of very good servers who occasionally got stingy tips. Some people are stingy assholes and good servers have a right to complain.

They have a right to complain because, as you would know if you were a host, they make a very poor hourly rate and depend on tips to survive. Usually far less than hosts who are usually high school kids and have the lowliest job in a restaurant outside dish boys.

It would follow that tipping is not ridiculous, and you are very right: people like you should stick to fast food and their own kitchens.

I'm sure MOST of those complaining wouldn't leave more than 15% even if your service was superb. Like has been posted above, some people just know how to find bad service. I'm sure you all impress your dates mightily.

And, yes, tightwads, we do remember you. And, yes, we do spit in your food.

[gaetanomontera]

I hate this attitude. You have not been "stiffed" if someone hasnt tipped. and not tipping isnt about being stingy.

You get paid for doing your job. You dont get a lot? Tough, I have my own financial concerns to worry about rather than pad out your pay packet. But I am not about to give you free, extra money just because you waited at my table.

And the idea that if you dont tip its fine for servers to spit in your food etc..? How pathetic are you people who agree with that?

People are not entitled to, and shouldnt expect, a tip just because they did their job.

And, no, douche. That's the point. Without a tip, we DO NOT get paid. Here in Colorado serving is the only job you can make UNDER minimum wage. I make 4.20/hour. My paycheck is usually about $20 after taxes.

[Rasputin9977]

I'm sure MOST of those complaining wouldn't leave more than 15% even if your service was superb. Like has been posted above, some people just know how to find bad service. I'm sure you all impress your dates mightily.
Here's another question for those that are or have worked in this field. How do you feel about 15% tips? This is what I usually leave, good or bad service (and round up to an even number). I do tip higher when I feel that the server went out of his/her way to make sure we had pleasant service but that does not happen often.

On a side note, what do you guys tip a barber? The barbers in my area charge $10-11 and I usually tip $4-5 dollars.

[dupont2005]

I never feel like calculating what I should tip so I tend to over tip just for the sake of not waiting for change or doing math.

[Jeff Brady]

Here's another question for those that are or have worked in this field. How do you feel about 15% tips? This is what I usually leave, good or bad service (and round up to an even number). I do tip higher when I feel that the server went out of his/her way to make sure we had pleasant service but that does not happen often.

On a side note, what do you guys tip a barber? The barbers in my area charge $10-11 and I usually tip $4-5 dollars.

It's best to tip 20% or more unless you've gotten shitty service, no matter what the service is. Waiter, bartender, barber, valet, whatever.

[Dr. Shouts]

If you were a host for any significant amount of time, then you probably also knew plenty of very good servers who occasionally got stingy tips. Some people are stingy assholes and good servers have a right to complain.

They have a right to complain because, as you would know if you were a host, they make a very poor hourly rate and depend on tips to survive. Usually far less than hosts who are usually high school kids and have the lowliest job in a restaurant outside dish boys.

It would follow that tipping is not ridiculous, and you are very right: people like you should stick to fast food and their own kitchens.

I'm sure MOST of those complaining wouldn't leave more than 15% even if your service was superb. Like has been posted above, some people just know how to find bad service. I'm sure you all impress your dates mightily.

And, yes, tightwads, we do remember you. And, yes, we do spit in your food.

You are not in any way right for spitting in someone's food. No one is forcing you to work for meagre minimum wage. Why are you taking it out on your customer? Why not your boss? The boss is the real cheapskate. I repeat: the boss is the real cheapskate.

I used to work at pizza delivery, and I used to get mad at people who didn't tip well. But then I realized it's ridiculous to always make a person feel obligated to pay. I was also tired of looking like a beggar by holding my hand out for a tip. My boss should pay me adequately so I don't have to live off scraps of change for people. It's that simple. Don't take your anger out on the customer; he in no way forced you to work there. Your boss doesn't think you are worth a decent wage. He is belittling you.

I quit pizza delivery and later found a job in a factory making $14 an hour. And yes, I was still in college. No one was forcing me to work for tips. So why take it out on the customer?

[ChadH]

It's best to tip 20% or more unless you've gotten shitty service, no matter what the service is. Waiter, bartender, barber, valet, whatever.
The masseuse?

[tangentman]

I'm glad you can spot a tongue-in cheek comment when you see one.

Your own ability to spot such is certainly questionable.

I responded to a tongue-in-cheek comment with the same.


Ease up, there, dude.

Oh, un-circle the wagons already, cowboy. StoneGold wasn't in any danger of flaming and he's more than capable of defending himself even if that was the case.

I'd also like to respond to the people who bitched about "mandatory" tipping. If paying a tip to someone who depends on that money to pay the rent leaves you that put out, then either make your meals or eat at a fucking McDonald's. Many servers attend college, or wait tables as a 2nd job for much-needed money.

To those who say "if you don't like it, get a better job"--just HOW long have you slept through the economic crisis of the past few years? Serving tables might be the only job that WAS available. People really shouldn't talk about things they clearly don't understand.

Furthermore, for every "incompetent server" story, I could meet you with several examples of the "Bad, Cheap Customer" comeback. When I waited tables, I provided superior guest service. I greeted all tables with a friendly smile, intuited appropriate menu items that guests liked, made conversation, served food on time, solved problems capably if they arose, and did my level best to provide a quality experience for guests.

Despite that, several guests felt perfectly entitled to stiff me even if I provided great service. I had a few customers who ran me for what I was worth, got EVERYTHING they demanded, then left me with coin change as a tip, or nothing at all. Smirking or even laughing as they left.

What about guests who demonstrated seeming illiteracy by ordering food without actually reading the menu? If you don't eat bacon, what part of "served with bacon" did you miss written in plain English? "Dummy-proofing" is a vital necessity when dealing with today's restaurant guest.

Then, there's the LOVELY families who keep servers running with incessant refills for Shirley Temples for their little "darlings". Many customers also apparently inhale their drinks with a single sip. Run about, oh, 9 refills in 5 minutes and then tell me about "slow servers".

Another "lovely" experience was the guest who needed a dozen things, but asked for everything they needed one thing at a time. If you need several items (condiments, sides, refills, etc.), then why not ask for it at once? That's one of the reasons that servers keep pens or pencils with paper handy.

I also know from visceral past experience that customers are certainly NOT above telling outright lies. Many will spin a "bad experience" for the sake of conning a restaurant out of a free meal or drink. Restaurants give away enough free meals to nearly qualify as a supplementary DFACS. It almost necessitates the motto of "Never Trust The Customer".

Many restaurant customers are SO powerless in their own lives that they feel entitled to take their bad days or fucked up lives out on service industry workers. It's loathsome and despicable. Servers and bartenders serve your meal, they're not PART of your meal.

That's not even to take into account the behind-the-drama that likely contributes to a "bad" dining experiences: incompetent & lazy kitchen staff who struggle when more than 2 items show up on an order screen; inattentive expediters who don't inspect the plates before they leave the kitchen; other servers who snatch your food instead of waiting on their own orders; hosts who play favorites and seat "undesirable" guests in your section; managers who throw you under the bus, rather than admit to the customer that the kitchen is disorderly during that particular shift. Just a few grievances to balance the "Servers Suck" litanies I've seen here.

The truth is simply that some people don't tip because they just don't WANT to tip. Get past the excuses and that's the bottom line. We don't live in a perfect world where you get to let other human beings prepare your meals without compensating them. We don't live in a perfect world where restaurants pay a fair living wage to servers. That's not happening in the States ANY time soon, so squash that notion right now.

In the end, whether or not one tips a hard-working server really comes down to integrity. People who tip have it, people who habitually stiff servers don't. It's really that simple.

[tangentman]

You are not in any way right for spitting in someone's food. No one is forcing you to work for meagre minimum wage. Why are you taking it out on your customer? Why not your boss? The boss is the real cheapskate. I repeat: the boss is the real cheapskate.


A fallacious argument. When you dine out and use a waiter's service, you enter an informal "contract" to compensate the server for his/her help. The American restaurant industry isn't changing anytime soon to provide you a convenient "out" to not tip.



I used to work at pizza delivery, and I used to get mad at people who didn't tip well. But then I realized it's ridiculous to always make a person feel obligated to pay. I was also tired of looking like a beggar by holding my hand out for a tip. My boss should pay me adequately so I don't have to live off scraps of change for people. It's that simple. Don't take your anger out on the customer; he in no way forced you to work there. Your boss doesn't think you are worth a decent wage. He is belittling you.


Maybe so, but there's also the whacky notion of you maybe, I don't know, showing empathy for people who share your experience of depending on tips? I find it rather telling and certainly appalling that you fail to muster even a modicum of empathy for people who AREN'T fortunate enough to escape the service industry.



I quit pizza delivery and later found a job in a factory making $14 an hour. And yes, I was still in college. No one was forcing me to work for tips. So why take it out on the customer?

Nobody's forcing you to eat outside your home. Why take it out on the server? Also, in case it's escaped your notice, the American economy has been in an ongoing state of crisis for that past 4 years. Y'know, the record unemployment rates, trivial problems like that.

Perhaps some people ARE working the only jobs they could get in this troubled time?

[Matt Algren]

I never feel like calculating what I should tip so I tend to over tip just for the sake of not waiting for change or doing math.
Move the decimal one space to the left and multiply by two.

[Rasputin9977]

TBH I did not know there were two sides on the 'tip' topic. I'll be 34 this year and since I was a kid, I thought tipping was just part of the eating out experience. I knew people didn't tip but I didn't know there is such displeasure on both sides. On a lighter note:

The masseuse?
Depends if there is a happy ending :eek:

Also, I'm with the group of people that think spitting on a meal is nuts. No one deserves that.

[Matt Algren]

Depends if there is a happy ending :eek:

...in which case, they already got the tip IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.

[Michael P]

Also, I'm with the group of people that think spitting on a meal is nuts. No one deserves that.

I don't approve of it, and I never did it, but it does happen.

[dupont2005]

It's best to tip 20% or more unless you've gotten shitty service, no matter what the service is. Waiter, bartender, barber, valet, whatever.

Every place I valet is either free or $5. I tip valet boys $5 but I avoid valet whenever I can.

[Dr. Shouts]

A fallacious argument. When you dine out and use a waiter's service, you enter an informal "contract" to compensate the server for his/her help. The American restaurant industry isn't changing anytime soon to provide you a convenient "out" to not tip.
The industry isn't changing because workers aren't demanding more pay from their bosses. Because workers aren't making a stink about it, bosses are assuming the pay is reasonable.



Maybe so, but there's also the whacky notion of you maybe, I don't know, showing empathy for people who share your experience of depending on tips? I find it rather telling and certainly appalling that you fail to muster even a modicum of empathy for people who AREN'T fortunate enough to escape the service industry.
In my first post I explained why I can't muster empathy: because many of them weren't good servers but still wanted to complain about crappy tips. The same thing when I worked at pizza delivery. Many of the drivers were crappy and felt entitled to a tip merely for driving the food over. A lot of people who work for tips do not acknowledge the possibility that they gave crappy service. All they see is a lousy tip and fail to evaluate their own performance.

I find it rather telling and certainly appalling that you fail to muster even a modicum of empathy for the customer who sometimes receives lousy or unattentive service from servers who think they're entitled to a tip simply because there is an informal contract.



Nobody's forcing you to eat outside your home. Why take it out on the server? Also, in case it's escaped your notice, the American economy has been in an ongoing state of crisis for that past 4 years. Y'know, the record unemployment rates, trivial problems like that.

Perhaps some people ARE working the only jobs they could get in this troubled time?

Don't give me, "they economy is bad" mumbo jumbo. Even if the economy wasn't bad you'd still be complaining about lack of job prospects; I know this because I've known people in the service industry who complained about lack of jobs back when gas prices were reasonable.

Let me tell you what jobs I've been working during this 4 year recession: host, worker at box making factory, worker at medical plant, cashier at target, worker at grocery stores, worked for cocoa cola stacking coke in grocery stores, detailed cars at an audi dealership, worked in a meat packing plant, etc.

How come I can find jobs in this recession but others can't?

[Nick Soapdish]

The industry isn't changing because workers aren't demanding more pay from their bosses. Because workers aren't making a stink about it, bosses are assuming the pay is reasonable.

Because most people don't stiff their server when they get good or even just decent service. If the server completely falls down on the job, I can understand passing on the tip, but the tip isn't just for exceptional service. And that goes for pizza deliverers, too.



How come I can find jobs in this recession but others can't?

Because you live in a different part of the nation? Because you have a different talent set than the other workers? Because you're lucky?

There is a huge gap between the number of people that are on unemployment right now and the number of jobs that are available. Lots of people are going to be unable to find a job under those circumstances, even badly paying ones.

[tangentman]

The industry isn't changing because workers aren't demanding more pay from their bosses. Because workers aren't making a stink about it, bosses are assuming the pay is reasonable.

The workers don't this imaginary clout that you keep touting. AFAIK, there's not a "Server's Union" and people would likely lose the jobs they need if they attempted unionizing. There's not a powerful enough lobby for these workers.

You're falling back on an imaginary outcome that isn't happening to relieve yourself of abiding by a basic piece of social etiquette that is readily grasped by others.



In my first post I explained why I can't muster empathy: because many of them weren't good servers but still wanted to complain about crappy tips. The same thing when I worked at pizza delivery. Many of the drivers were crappy and felt entitled to a tip merely for driving the food over. A lot of people who work for tips do not acknowledge the possibility that they gave crappy service. All they see is a lousy tip and fail to evaluate their own performance.


I have no sympathy for lousy servers. Yes, I've met & encountered apathetic, lazy servers. God help me, I worked alongside them when I served tables. However, I've also met and worked with MANY strong servers who've been screwed over by what I'll call "Consumer Sociopaths".

You'll find incompetence & laziness in ANY employment sector. However, many of those other fields don't require anything beyond the basic level of performance to take home a living wage. Furthermore, I suspect that the number of competent servers at least moderately outweighs the inept.




I find it rather telling and certainly appalling that you fail to muster even a modicum of empathy for the customer who sometimes receives lousy or unattentive service from servers who think they're entitled to a tip simply because there is an informal contract.


Perhaps because the balance of power lies largely in the customer's favor? The customer enters the equation with most (if not all) of the power. The server relies on the customer to even have the possibility of income that day. The customer can readily hold the server hostage with the tip. The customer essentially has the power to fire with a few well-chosen words--even if that person egregiously lies, there's little recourse for the server.

I can empathize with decent people who might be unfortunate enough to receive lousy service. I myself have no use for it, but I also consider myself intuitive enough to discern whether that "lousy service" comes from the person having a bad day, lack of experience, or whether they really ARE just lazy and inattentive. What I can't empathize with are people who enter restaurants with unrealistic expectations. Dining out will not fix YOUR bad day and solve all your personal problems. Dining out does not entitle you to leave your courtesy, social skills, and decency at home (assuming such exists). Dining out isn't your "free pass" to take your grievances out on human beings who aren't in a position to fight back, or attempt to con a restaurant out of free meals.




Don't give me, "they economy is bad" mumbo jumbo. Even if the economy wasn't bad you'd still be complaining about lack of job prospects; I know this because I've known people in the service industry who complained about lack of jobs back when gas prices were reasonable.


This isn't "mumbo jumbo", this is reality I'm talking about--something which you clearly seem disconnected from. Your anecdotal woes don't account for the hard-working people who have to deal with the misplaced aggression of folks like you. There are far more conscientious people with strong work ethics at those tables than the folks you know.

I live in a state STILL reeling from high unemployment. Opening a newspaper, watching a news show, or reading statistics should apprise you of the existence of a struggling economy. Your powers of denial are formidable, however.



Let me tell you what jobs I've been working during this 4 year recession: host, worker at box making factory, worker at medical plant, cashier at target, worker at grocery stores, worked for cocoa cola stacking coke in grocery stores, detailed cars at an audi dealership, worked in a meat packing plant, etc.

How come I can find jobs in this recession but others can't?

Then you've been more fortunate than others. I know qualified professionals with degrees who've had harder times. They've been OVER-qualified for the kind of work you've described. Many people have lost their jobs through no fault of their own--companies down-sizing or closing, medical problems, job sabotage by less scrupulous co-workers. There are far too many people desperate for jobs who aren't in their position simply because they lack initiative to job hunt.

Furthermore, many companies these days simply refuse to consider applications/resumes of people who aren't currently employed. It's becoming common practice for companies to toss out any paperwork if the applicants aren't currently employed. That's a little more complex than the simplistic scenarios YOU'RE describing.

Again, the bottom line is that you & others like you just want an excuse to treat service industry workers like shit. Any excuse will do. You haven't presented any compelling evidence that servers shouldn't expect a tip for competent service.

[Dr. Shouts]

tangentman, I understand where you and other pro-server people are coming from. We can bicker back and forth about the economy, good servers vs bad servers, and lousy customers. However, there's one thing I have to make clear--and I'm going to underline it to rein in my point: under no circumstances is it okay for a server to tamper with a customer's food.

It's not okay for a teenager to tamper with customer's food, nor is it okay for an adult to do it--certainly not.

When I worked as a delivery driver, my avg. ranged from the following:

slow night: $1-$3 avg.
avg. night: $3-$5 avg.
good night: $5-$10 avg.

Even on a good night I never thought it was worth it to tamper with someone's food because they stiffed me ten bucks. I understand ten bucks would have helped, but that is not excuse to demean myself by doing childish vandalism.

I'm sure servers make much more on avg., let's say between $25-$50; that is still not such a big loss that they should reduce themselves to petty vandalism. If someone came up to you and said, "I'll pay you $50 to spit on a random stranger", or "tee-pee a random person's house", or "egg their car", or "take a dump on their doorstep", would you do it? If yes, then I hope you grow up soon. If no, then why would it be okay to mess up someone's food over $50?

Servers aren't the only people in the food industry who make minimum wage; fast food people make it as well. Are fast food people entitled to tamper with customer's food simply because they don't make any tip at all?

Another thing, many foreign cultures don't have tipping system, so would it be okay to spit on a foreign customer's food? I was shocked when my English friends were ignorant of tipping in the U.S. until they told me the tip is always automatically on the bill in the U.K., so they assumed it was the same in the States. And it's also not just foreigners either. Prior to eating out by myself, I had always eaten out with my family, so my dad had always taken care of the bill. I was unaware the tip was a big deal until I worked as a host. I was shocked I had been undertipping for so long, and quite ashamed. The same happened when I turned 21 and started drinking at bars. I didn't know bartenders should be tipped until someone told me 2 months after my 21st birthday. I wouldn't be surprised if all those people tampered with my food unmindful that I didn't know the proper etiquette.

Lastly, I understand there is an informal contract between customer and server that expects a customer to tip a certain percentage for adequate services rendered. However, there is an even more strict and formal contract a server must adhere to: the customer service rep. will provide professional service to the best of his or her ability, even when the customer is in the wrong. Tampering with the food is highly unprofessional. There is no clause in a server's contract that states: a server has the right to tamper with a customer's food if he or she feels the tip rendered was not sufficient. You're supposed to provide good customer service all the time, no matter the circumstances. Certainly you must have known this prior to taking the job. Thus, you have no right to tamper with their food when you knew of the possibility and probability that you were going to deal with bad customers.

[FanboyStranger]

Servers aren't the only people in the food industry who make minimum wage; fast food people make it as well. Are fast food people entitled to tamper with customer's food simply because they don't make any tip at all?

Just wanted to point out again that servers in general will make significantly less than minimum wage. This is one of the few industries that is exempt from federal minimum wage standards. Tips make up the difference. A fast food employee is at least making minimum wage as is a delivery driver.

Completely agreed on the spitting/tampering with food thing, though. Besides being gross, it is a potential health code violation if you do it to the wrong person. Although this would be an extreme case, nobody makes any money if the restarant is shut down.

[Kusanagi]

As a server I will say this once.

It is never ever cool to tamper with someones food.

No matter how big a douche, no matter how needy, no matter how ignorant, it's never cool, and it is never justified.

What you can do, especially if you get a regular fucker who stiffs, or people who go out of their way to be difficult assholes

1: Give them the bare minimum. If they're not going to tip, they're an absolute waste of your time and energy. Get them their food and drink, don't bother going that extra mile, don't waste points on conversation, giving them tips on a cheaper meal etc. You can spend that on other tables who will actually give a shit that your trying.

2: Inform a manager, this allows you to delegate, and removes you of blame later. 9/10 the manager will sympathize and take the brunt of a douchey table for you.

3: Expect the worst, anyone who's worked in the Service Industry can spot a shit table pretty easily. Be pleasant, be responsive, but know damn well you're going to be screwed over. Is this cynical? Yeah, but it cushions the blow for a shit tip, and most of the time you'll be pleasantly surprised how much you get. Most people are decent/good tippers, just keep repeating it to yourself.

4: Vent. Not to the host though, you just get the Dr. Shouts types :tongue:. Go talk to the other severs (in the back of course), with them you can curse, shout, poke fun, anything to make you feel better. That way you can face your table with a smile on your face, even though you want to kick that pig ignorant bitch/bastard in the head.

[Kusanagi]

Couple more points

1: Servers do not make minimum wage, they make Minimum wage WITH Tips. Good servers can of course make more than Minimum on tips alone, and it varies from restaurant to restaurant. But the Restaurant itself does not pay them even Minimum.

2: "Why don't servers organize then?"
I'm sorry this is just a stupid question. A restaurant can fire its entire staff with impunity, and be back to normal in a few days (less if they're a chain and have a nearby affiliate). Sure it's an inconvenience for them, but with the high turnover most restaurants have it's not a big deal. We get 10-15 applicants for work, per day, it only takes 10-15 to have a full staff, you can do the math.

[jesse_custer]

How come I can find jobs in this recession but others can't?

This almost reads like satire.

[Monty_Cristo]

i always tip. but i'm of the opinion that food tamperers are the lowest form of life; only above child molesters and nazis. if you hate food service find another damn job. i take sh*t from customers all day. doesn't mean i jerk off on the equipment i ship out to them.

[tangentman]

Dr. Shouts: Please don't shift the goalposts just to redirect the conversation to your advantage. At no point did I advocate tampering with customer food. Though sorely tempted when I waited tables, I didn't stoop to such boorishness. Not even when disgruntled servers recommended dropping Visine into their drinks.

On that note, let's debunk an urban myth: consuming Visine does NOT give the target "the runs". From what I've read, it acts as a potentially fatal poison. Federal crime there, so I actively discourage that, along with any other retaliation.

However, as you yourself unintentionally noted, Dr. Shouts: there's no retaliation for the server who gets screwed over by inconsiderate customers. Food tampering is highly unethical and just too malicious. The server is expected to maintain professionalism "under fire". There's no mouthing back without a write-up at the VERY least. Therefore, I reiterate that customers need to show integrity & gratitude when others capably relieve them of the burden of food preparation.

I'll also add that it's my experience that hosts generally don't understand the grief servers go through. I've seen hosts who over-sit sections, seat out of order, seat guests at dirty tables, and play favorites by sending "undesirables" to any servers who aren't their pals. Hosts are generally pretty clueless until they've actually cross-trained and waited a table themselves.

[Nick Soapdish]

Dr. Shouts: Please don't shift the goalposts just to redirect the conversation to your advantage. At no point did I advocate tampering with customer food. Though sorely tempted when I waited tables, I didn't stoop to such boorishness. Not even when disgruntled servers recommended dropping Visine into their drinks.


There was a bit of confusion when you joked about it so this could be left over from that.

And about the food tampering, it's not a potential health code violation. It's always a health code violation. It's one that can potentially get caught and give the whole restaurant grief.

[Dr. Shouts]

Yeah Nick, I thought tangentman was advocating it when the comment about some people should get saliva in their food was made.

tangentman, you are correct. I don't personally understand the grief servers go through. And yes, I also am guilty of all those petty things servers do (not only did I place undesirables with servers I didn't like, sometimes I didn't seat people at their places at all, even when they complained).

However, I do believe servers have a huge tendency to exaggerate their misfortunes. I understand the economy is bad; I understand you're an inexperienced college student; I understand the hourly wage is low; etc. But servers tend to moan loudly as if there aren't people in worse situations in the U.S.

Like I said, I've had several jobs since the economy started going sour. Two were in Ohio, two were in Chicagoland. Anyone familiar with the economy in those areas will tell you the job market was horrible there even before the recession. Ever heard of Sedalia, Missouri? Wouldn't be surprised if you didn't. I took a job there in other middle of nowhere places cuz I couldn't find work in my area. I lived there but had a long commute to college.

But wait? There's worse. A widowed friend of mine has two little girls, lives in a slum apt., and works graveyard at a boxmaking factory.

A West African lady who used to live next door to me was kicked outta her son's house after she had a fight with him and his wife. She spent a few months in poor house before finding a job working as a live-in helper.

My sis went to Venezuela, came back to the States with a guy, married him a few months after returning, got pregnant a month later, less than three months after giving birth to a boy she was divorced cuz she had found out the Venezuelan only married her to get a green card to live in the U.S. The court ruled he doesn't have to pay child support because she makes more. But she doesn't have enough to pay for a sitter. So, aside from my mom and other relatives, I have to spend some of my mornings, afternoons and nights taking care of him.

Now, I bet you're wondering, "What's the point of these sob stories?" My point: you, and many other servers, exaggerate your economic situation. Why do servers always, and I mean always, exaggerate their financial situation like it's the end of the world? As you've acknowledged, tangentman, most of you people are college kids. You have the luxury of receiving funds from mommy and daddy as well as student loans. Many others don't have that.

I understand if you wanna vent your frustration on the job on the net. Go ahead. But many servers wanted to act as if they were wage slaves. Ha! I know many of the college servers I worked with were cool; but many were stuck up children, who complained about the tiniest thing: "my ipod is busted; such a bummer", or "I accidentally crashed my car into the mall; it was sooo embarrassing", or "I partied way into the early morning last Saturday, slept for almost twelve hours on Sunday, and I'm still sleepy--plus, I haven't studied for that stupid history exam", or "my boyfriend and I had a fight last night and I'm super sad; I was actually thinking about calling in sick this weekend to deal with this stress. I wanna see if I can find someone to take over my shift", and a plethora of other ridiculous complaints about how being an "underpriviledged" college student was a miserable existence.

Sorry tangentman, I wanna feel sorry for servers, but your lives aren't nearly as bad as you wanna make it seem. I know the "cheer up, it could be worse" line is not much of a help. But I definitely think those college kids will grow up and end up wishing they could go back to those simple times.

[Nick Soapdish]

However, I do believe servers have a huge tendency to exaggerate their misfortunes. I understand the economy is bad; I understand you're an inexperienced college student; I understand the hourly wage is low; etc. But servers tend to moan loudly as if there aren't people in worse situations in the U.S.


I think that most people have a tendency to exaggerate their misfortunes. I've heard tons of people bitching about how their jobs suck. Since I don't know many servers, I haven't heard many of them so from my standpoint, it would look like servers are the ones that are stoically enduring their trials.

And maybe it's just because most of the servers that you had to deal with were college students, but I've been to a lot of restaurants that had servers that were obviously well out of the normal college years. It sounds more like your complaint isn't about servers, but college kids working a part time job for party cash.


Also, it's a bit rude to claim that every server, including the one that you're speaking to is lying. Or to start lumping people together as "you people".

[Kusanagi]

I'm sorry but what the hell are you talking about?

'Say well it could be worse', doesn't change the fact that being a server can be a shit job sometimes. Their are bankers, teachers, lawyers, and Doctors that bitch about their jobs some times. That's just human nature.

Also "relying on mommy and daddy" that's a bit patronizing don't you think? Yes there are those that have it as their first part time job, there are others for who its there only job, others who have to support families on that job. Are others worse off? Sure, does that mean life can't suck for them too? Hell no.

"Student loans to rely on" yes until you have to pay them back. I can't speak for everyone, but I wasn't fortunate enough to have a parent with good enough credit for my loans. Every loan I've had in college has been in my name, and I'm sure as hell not alone on that fact in this generation of students.

[FanboyStranger]

"Student loans to rely on" yes until you have to pay them back. I can't speak for everyone, but I wasn't fortunate enough to have a parent with good enough credit for my loans. Every loan I've had in college has been in my name, and I'm sure as hell not alone on that fact in this generation of students.

The reason why I work three jobs is to pay back my college loans and the credit card debt I incurred during my time in graduate school. I bartend basically to maintain a 50% employee discount at the bar I frequent, but I have to admit the tips I get help me through the week with things like food, entertainment, etc., which means I put more of the money I make from my salaried job towards those loans and debt. When I started my fulltime job two and a half years ago, my goal was to be debt free within five years. Thanks to those tips I get, I'm looking at closer to four.

Also, no one signed shit for me. My parents would have liked to have helped out, but I have three younger sibllings and money was always tight.

[Dr. Shouts]

Boy, looks like I blew it. I was going good when I mentioned spitting in food, but now I've lost 'em with my rant against whiny college students. Oh well, time to bail out. tangentman, no need to reply cuz I'm bowing out of the argument. We're getting nowhere with it, and I'd like to say you've stated some truly enlightening things. I hope you and everyone else had a happy Valentines. I'm just celebrating mine now with my old lady cuz yesterday I had work and classes.

[Matt Algren]

The industry isn't changing because workers aren't demanding more pay from their bosses. Because workers aren't making a stink about it, bosses are assuming the pay is reasonable.
Wrong. An exception to wage laws is in place that excuses desperately low direct payment of one specific group of workers. Until that exception changes or is repealed, there is zero chance of the payment system changing, because the employers have all the power and are the ones that can make that decision.

[Dr. Shouts]

I also want to add that I understand service is slow because of the cooks. But the best solution is to tell the customer. I used to do that when I did pizza delivery. Sometimes a co-worker would take the order but forget to send the order; there are times when the order wasn't send for almost a half hour. If that was the case then I immediately called the customer and told them the reason for the delay and apologized. Sometimes I got bitched out, sometimes I got no tip, sometimes both. But that's what comes with the job.

If you're a server and the cook caused the food to be late then you should tell the customer the reason for the delay. Don't leave the customer in limbo, not knowing why their food is late. Be honest, even if it means getting chewed out. In some cases, a customer will show sympathy and appreciate the honesty and professionalism, and may even give a decent tip.

And Matt, I've never heard of this law.

[thespianphryne]

[...]

And Matt, I've never heard of this law.

Why on earth do you think the only employees who can be paid less than minimum wage are people who receive tips?

The exception to minimum wage laws is that if the employees makes enough in tips to complete the difference in per hour pay and earns more than some fixed amount (I can't recall, I think it's $30 or $40) a month in tips, the employer is not required to pay more than $2 and change per hour. If the tips don't cover the difference, the employer is required to make up the difference.

[tangentman]

1. I haven't waited tables for a few years now.

2. My parents NEVER carried me. I paid for college with grants, scholarships, loans, or out of my own damn pocket. What patronizing and erroneous shit!

3. Stop while you're still able to back out gracefully. You're really just embarrassing yourself at this point.

[Black Atom]

Yeah Nick, I thought tangentman was advocating it when the comment about some people should get saliva in their food was made.

tangentman, you are correct. I don't personally understand the grief servers go through. And yes, I also am guilty of all those petty things servers do (not only did I place undesirables with servers I didn't like, sometimes I didn't seat people at their places at all, even when they complained).

However, I do believe servers have a huge tendency to exaggerate their misfortunes. I understand the economy is bad; I understand you're an inexperienced college student; I understand the hourly wage is low; etc. But servers tend to moan loudly as if there aren't people in worse situations in the U.S.

Like I said, I've had several jobs since the economy started going sour. Two were in Ohio, two were in Chicagoland. Anyone familiar with the economy in those areas will tell you the job market was horrible there even before the recession. Ever heard of Sedalia, Missouri? Wouldn't be surprised if you didn't. I took a job there in other middle of nowhere places cuz I couldn't find work in my area. I lived there but had a long commute to college.

But wait? There's worse. A widowed friend of mine has two little girls, lives in a slum apt., and works graveyard at a boxmaking factory.

A West African lady who used to live next door to me was kicked outta her son's house after she had a fight with him and his wife. She spent a few months in poor house before finding a job working as a live-in helper.

My sis went to Venezuela, came back to the States with a guy, married him a few months after returning, got pregnant a month later, less than three months after giving birth to a boy she was divorced cuz she had found out the Venezuelan only married her to get a green card to live in the U.S. The court ruled he doesn't have to pay child support because she makes more. But she doesn't have enough to pay for a sitter. So, aside from my mom and other relatives, I have to spend some of my mornings, afternoons and nights taking care of him.

Now, I bet you're wondering, "What's the point of these sob stories?" My point: you, and many other servers, exaggerate your economic situation. Why do servers always, and I mean always, exaggerate their financial situation like it's the end of the world? As you've acknowledged, tangentman, most of you people are college kids. You have the luxury of receiving funds from mommy and daddy as well as student loans. Many others don't have that.

I understand if you wanna vent your frustration on the job on the net. Go ahead. But many servers wanted to act as if they were wage slaves. Ha! I know many of the college servers I worked with were cool; but many were stuck up children, who complained about the tiniest thing: "my ipod is busted; such a bummer", or "I accidentally crashed my car into the mall; it was sooo embarrassing", or "I partied way into the early morning last Saturday, slept for almost twelve hours on Sunday, and I'm still sleepy--plus, I haven't studied for that stupid history exam", or "my boyfriend and I had a fight last night and I'm super sad; I was actually thinking about calling in sick this weekend to deal with this stress. I wanna see if I can find someone to take over my shift", and a plethora of other ridiculous complaints about how being an "underpriviledged" college student was a miserable existence.

Sorry tangentman, I wanna feel sorry for servers, but your lives aren't nearly as bad as you wanna make it seem. I know the "cheer up, it could be worse" line is not much of a help. But I definitely think those college kids will grow up and end up wishing they could go back to those simple times.

A couple points:

First, re: the economy. The cases you're referencing aren't empirical or indicative of what all Americans are experiencing. I feel the need to address it because it seems to be a common misconception among people that either still have jobs or haven't had a lot of trouble finding jobs in this economy. What's been particularly bad about this downturn is that the middle class has been impacted significantly. Since this is where a lot of the input into the economy comes from, it's sort of a vicious cycle.

What that means is, some of my friends who are part time students who perform service industry jobs or other relatively unskilled/low-paying types of labor (like restaurant serving) are usually able to find work. It's much harder for those who lost skilled jobs or high-paying manufacturing jobs to find new work on the other hand that pays a comparable salary. That last part is important. It's not merely about finding another job--it's about finding a job that allows you too address the liabilities you had before you were laid off. It's not practical for mid-level manager to go work at McDonald's. This is exacerbated because even the same positions, when they become available, pay less because the demand for labor is down (remember that supply and demand acts on labor rates as well).

re: tipping, I oppose tipping in general. It's a way for business owners to get out of paying employees, sloughing the responsibility off onto patrons. Since patrons are not forced to pay, the server suffers. It's particularly crappy because the customer is, in effect, "commissioning" the server for service yet the server enjoys none of the benefits of a proper "freelance" relationship. Servers should make a guaranteed fair wage like any other profession, but since that's probably not gonna happen anytime soon in this country, it's responsible to tip fairly when you receive adequate service.

And no, it's never okay to tamper with someone's food.

[RatFace]

Mybe this will help to illuminate some things:

The United States minimum wage is $7.25 per hour.

The Federal law is if a tipped employee makes $30 or more a month in tips, the employer is only required to pay $2.13 per hour.

To see what your state pays check out this web site:

http://www.paywizard.org/main/Minimumwageandovertime/MinimumWageTIPRecevers

[Fabian]

Answering OP's original question, it really depends from restaurant to restaurant but most servers prefer a credit card payment and a cash tip. Just makes it easier during cash-out, but there could be minor drawbacks for both. I honestly don't care how I get my tips because I've experienced both (minor) drawbacks to every cash and credit card combo. I will say that carrying around over $200 in cash makes me feel uncomfortable.


However if I get bad service I don't tip well at all and if it's extremely bad service there will be no tip and I'll talk to the manager.
First thing is first, if you ever have bad service, let a manager know. The server could either be in the weeds, the kitchen could be backed-up, or yes, the server could suck. Management can fix a restaurant problem very easily. Kitchen always respond quickly to management. And if the server sucks, chances are, it's not the 1st complaint and they need to be fired. I currently work with a few of those crap servers.


Oh and another thing, don't let me see you yelling at another employee in public because they help us out. I'll give the tip to that other employee instead of you.
Yelling on the floor is never cool but sometimes other people do not know. There's been way too many times when other employees gave wrong/conflicting answers to questions and then I look like an idiot or untrustworthy person.



Another thing, many foreign cultures don't have tipping system, so would it be okay to spit on a foreign customer's food? I was shocked when my English friends were ignorant of tipping in the U.S. until they told me the tip is always automatically on the bill in the U.K., so they assumed it was the same in the States.

This is my pet peeve. A tipping guide is in EVERY single travel magazine when coming into the states. That includes the stuff you find on the buses and trains. There's also a tipping guide on every periodical (that isn't a newspaper) in every hotel room. And it should be common courtesy to do some research on customs of the country you are visiting. I will not go to England and drive up the wrong side of the road.


Prior to eating out by myself, I had always eaten out with my family, so my dad had always taken care of the bill. I was unaware the tip was a big deal until I worked as a host. I was shocked I had been undertipping for so long, and quite ashamed. The same happened when I turned 21 and started drinking at bars. I didn't know bartenders should be tipped until someone told me 2 months after my 21st birthday. I wouldn't be surprised if all those people tampered with my food unmindful that I didn't know the proper etiquette.
You're obsessed with this food tampering strawman. I'm surprised it took you so long to know what a proper tip was and that bartenders still served you for 2 months after your 21st.


If you're a server and the cook caused the food to be late then you should tell the customer the reason for the delay. Don't leave the customer in limbo, not knowing why their food is late. Be honest, even if it means getting chewed out. In some cases, a customer will show sympathy and appreciate the honesty and professionalism, and may even give a decent tip.


Nope. If I go to a table and mention the kitchen is backed up, it's rare when they appreciate the info. They usually tend to ask why and turn it around on me. I understand they're hungry so I always offer something I can bring them quickly (and free of course) like an appetizer, salad, or soup. They also either get a free dessert or some sort of discount (usually a comped entree or 2). The average tip I get when kitchen issues happen is 10% after the discounts. In over 8 years of being a server, the times a customer has given me the tip I deserved had the kitchen not screwed up is less than 10.

[dupont2005]

I have a feeling that the people who constantly have bad service are more than likely assholes who seem to have a bad experience on every form of service provided to them, or social interactions in general. The road ragers who chew out drive thru attendants and seem to always get the bitchy technical support representative on the phone.

I eat out all the time, everywhere from world class establishments to roach coaches. Only once have I received service so bad I didn't leave a tip. I'm not going to male someone jump through hoops and grovel at my feet so they can earn a living wage. ESPECIALLY not if I'm at Applebees or Denny's or something. Be glad they even bring food to your table and wipe it down after the last customer. If you can't stand tipping there is always McDonalds.

[Dr. Shouts]

Why on earth do you think the only employees who can be paid less than minimum wage are people who receive tips?


When I worked at pizza delivery I started out making minimum wage. Then they increased it by 80 cents after a year and a half. I also met dudes who made around $10 hourly. They worked long hours and their weekly paycheck was more than many of the manager's pay. I guess employers feel pizza delivery is much harder work than waiting tables.


1. I haven't waited tables for a few years now.
Yet you're still fuming about it like you still do it. I met crappy customers when I met in pizza delivery, but I got over it after a year of quitting the job.



2. My parents NEVER carried me. I paid for college with grants, scholarships, loans, or out of my own damn pocket. What patronizing and erroneous shit!
I apologize if I seem like I'm patronizing or attacking you. But my point is that college-level servers bitch the most about not having enough job opportunity, but actually their prospects are much better than other people. Yet they still wanna complain as if they are in a miserable position, which is far from true.


3. Stop while you're still able to back out gracefully. You're really just embarrassing yourself at this point.
I've never actually been embarrassed on an anonymous internet forum, but thank you for considering my feelings.:smile:


A couple points:


It's much harder for those who lost skilled jobs or high-paying manufacturing jobs to find new work on the other hand that pays a comparable salary. That last part is important. It's not merely about finding another job--it's about finding a job that allows you too address the liabilities you had before you were laid off. It's not practical for mid-level manager to go work at McDonald's.
I understand and agree with much of what you've said. But when the economy is bad complaining about it and having a woe-is-me attitude won't make things better.

You said: "That last part is important. It's not merely about finding another job--it's about finding a job that allows you too address the liabilities you had before you were laid off."

I agree, but many, many times the people laid off complain about luxury items, rather than real necessities. I've heard people complaining that they don't have enough money to spend shopping at their favorite store, restaurant, or go on expensive cruises. Some people confuse liabilities with luxury, that's the problem.



re: tipping, I oppose tipping in general. It's a way for business owners to get out of paying employees, sloughing the responsibility off onto patrons. Since patrons are not forced to pay, the server suffers. It's particularly crappy because the customer is, in effect, "commissioning" the server for service yet the server enjoys none of the benefits of a proper "freelance" relationship. Servers should make a guaranteed fair wage like any other profession, but since that's probably not gonna happen anytime soon in this country, it's responsible to tip fairly when you receive adequate service.

And no, it's never okay to tamper with someone's food.
Agreed on both points.

Mybe this will help to illuminate some things:

The United States minimum wage is $7.25 per hour.

The Federal law is if a tipped employee makes $30 or more a month in tips, the employer is only required to pay $2.13 per hour.

To see what your state pays check out this web site:

http://www.paywizard.org/main/Minimumwageandovertime/MinimumWageTIPRecevers
Thanks for the info.


This is my pet peeve. A tipping guide is in EVERY single travel magazine when coming into the states. That includes the stuff you find on the buses and trains. There's also a tipping guide on every periodical (that isn't a newspaper) in every hotel room. And it should be common courtesy to do some research on customs of the country you are visiting. I will not go to England and drive up the wrong side of the road.
If this is true then I agree with you. However, I still would like to hear the side of the story from my English friends.


You're obsessed with this food tampering strawman. I'm surprised it took you so long to know what a proper tip was and that bartenders still served you for 2 months after your 21st.
I'm obsessed because it truly is a big deal. Whenever servers talk about getting revenge on lousy customers, the food tampering threat comes up every time. It came up in their thread on the first page. It was on the second, and even tangentman seemed to sanction it when he said something like, "Spoken like someone who should receive saliva in their food". Whether or not tangentman has done it will never be known. But his comment made it appear that he definitely agrees with it being done to customers.

This is a big issue with me because it's something servers constantly use to threaten or intimidate customers. I also stated many servers fail to self-evaluate their service and are quick to criticize customers than themselves. I've seen this too many times.




Nope. If I go to a table and mention the kitchen is backed up, it's rare when they appreciate the info. They usually tend to ask why and turn it around on me. I understand they're hungry so I always offer something I can bring them quickly (and free of course) like an appetizer, salad, or soup. They also either get a free dessert or some sort of discount (usually a comped entree or 2). The average tip I get when kitchen issues happen is 10% after the discounts. In over 8 years of being a server, the times a customer has given me the tip I deserved had the kitchen not screwed up is less than 10.
The same thing happened to me when I delivered pizza: I got chewed out and most times lost the tip. But at least I was honest and professional, rather than leaving the customer in the dark because I wanted a measly few extra bucks.

Put yourself in the customer's shoes: sitting around waiting, thinking the server is inattentive, wondering if he should leave, and looking at other people get their food on time. If he leaves the restaurant and later finds out he was left in the dark cuz the server failed to tell him the kitchen was backed up, he's gonna feel even angrier than if he had been told. At least if he's told then he has the option to leave.

Sorry Fabian, I cannot condone leaving the customer waiting because you want a tip, which, as you admit, is not all that much money. Why waste a customer's time for a few more bucks?


I have a feeling that the people who constantly have bad service are more than likely assholes who seem to have a bad experience on every form of service provided to them, or social interactions in general. The road ragers who chew out drive thru attendants and seem to always get the bitchy technical support representative on the phone.
I don't think it's about constantly having bad service; I'd say it's more about remembering the really bad service the most. Businessmen have this quote: "A customer who has good service will tell one person. A customer who has lousy service will tell ten people". What it means that people truly tend to remember the bad more than the good. We're all guilty of it. We also tend to exaggerate our bad experiences.

A customer who receives bad service from a store may end up hating everyone at the store (and maybe not wanna shop there again). A server who receives a bad customer may end up hating all customers (and may end up vowing to never work in customer service again if he can help it).




If you can't stand tipping there is always McDonalds.

Personally, I prefer Dairy Queen.:tongue:

[Nick Soapdish]

When I worked at pizza delivery I started out making minimum wage. Then they increased it by 80 cents after a year and a half. I also met dudes who made around $10 hourly. They worked long hours and their weekly paycheck was more than many of the manager's pay. I guess employers feel pizza delivery is much harder work than waiting tables.


Tips are usually lower for pizza guys, too. I don't usually tip a pizza guy 20% of the price of the pizza and they have to drive as well. Instead, it's a buck or two, per pizza (which might wind up being 20%). In the last few years, they've started putting a delivery charge on and I'm not sure if that's supposed to cover gas or not, but I haven't had a pizza delivered since then.


Yet you're still fuming about it like you still do it. I met crappy customers when I met in pizza delivery, but I got over it after a year of quitting the job.

And you're still fuming over lousy servers. It's not like it's keeping either of you up at nights, but when the topic came up, you've both weighed in. Heck, so have I and I've never been a server or host. I guess that I still have a dog in the fight because I've been a customer a lot of times.



I agree, but many, many times the people laid off complain about luxury items, rather than real necessities. I've heard people complaining that they don't have enough money to spend shopping at their favorite store, restaurant, or go on expensive cruises. Some people confuse liabilities with luxury, that's the problem.

How many people do you know that were laid off and are you considering them to be representative of all people that were laid off? There are a lot of people here on the boards that have been laid off. None of them have ever mentioned being unable to go on cruises or having to give up luxuries.

Heck, you were complaining about how all servers are just college kids that are only working to have some spending money while sponging off of the parents, but you never had to pay a bill until you were 21. I wish that I had had things that tough when I was in school. My parents were helping me pay for school and I was getting loans as well, but I needed a job, too.



I'm obsessed because it truly is a big deal. Whenever servers talk about getting revenge on lousy customers, the food tampering threat comes up every time. It came up in their thread on the first page. It was on the second, and even tangentman seemed to sanction it when he said something like, "Spoken like someone who should receive saliva in their food". Whether or not tangentman has done it will never be known. But his comment made it appear that he definitely agrees with it being done to customers.

This is a big issue with me because it's something servers constantly use to threaten or intimidate customers. I also stated many servers fail to self-evaluate their service and are quick to criticize customers than themselves. I've seen this too many times.

Do any of them ever threaten the customers or is it venting away from them? If it's a genuine threat, that's one thing, but people make jokes to help deal with stress.



The same thing happened to me when I delivered pizza: I got chewed out and most times lost the tip. But at least I was honest and professional, rather than leaving the customer in the dark because I wanted a measly few extra bucks.

Put yourself in the customer's shoes: sitting around waiting, thinking the server is inattentive, wondering if he should leave, and looking at other people get their food on time. If he leaves the restaurant and later finds out he was left in the dark cuz the server failed to tell him the kitchen was backed up, he's gonna feel even angrier than if he had been told. At least if he's told then he has the option to leave.

Most of the time that I have had slow service, the server has come out and done exactly that. And leaving the customer in the dark in a good way to ensure that you will lose out on the tip.



I don't think it's about constantly having bad service; I'd say it's more about remembering the really bad service the most. Businessmen have this quote: "A customer who has good service will tell one person. A customer who has lousy service will tell ten people". What it means that people truly tend to remember the bad more than the good. We're all guilty of it. We also tend to exaggerate our bad experiences.

Thank you.


A customer who receives bad service from a store may end up hating everyone at the store (and maybe not wanna shop there again). A server who receives a bad customer may end up hating all customers (and may end up vowing to never work in customer service again if he can help it).


That's a big part of it. The customer has all the power in the situation. There isn't anything that the server can do if they get stiffed other than vent. However, if the customer gets treated badly, they can complain to management or just stop going - like I did once.

[Dr. Shouts]

And you're still fuming over lousy servers. It's not like it's keeping either of you up at nights, but when the topic came up, you've both weighed in. Heck, so have I and I've never been a server or host. I guess that I still have a dog in the fight because I've been a customer a lot of times.

Agreed.



How many people do you know that were laid off and are you considering them to be representative of all people that were laid off? There are a lot of people here on the boards that have been laid off. None of them have ever mentioned being unable to go on cruises or having to give up luxuries.

I've been to poor places like Haiti, where people were so poor they made cakes out of mud, and Tijuana, where families of around a dozen were living in cardboard boxes, and other tragedies. When you think about it, people in the U.S. don't have much of a right to complain about suffering. That's why it's easy for me to turn a deaf ear. I'm currently living in a crummy apt., have boring oatmeal for breakfast, wear hand-me-down-clothes, can barely afford the internet but not T.V., and that thing I could call a car tends to break down when it gets really cold (and it's been really cold where I'm at for the past several weeks), but life is still good here in the United States.

People need to remember this is "the land of opportunity" and life is good here. The "woe-is-me the economy is bad" line doesn't make things better.



Heck, you were complaining about how all servers are just college kids that are only working to have some spending money while sponging off of the parents, but you never had to pay a bill until you were 21. I wish that I had had things that tough when I was in school. My parents were helping me pay for school and I was getting loans as well, but I needed a job, too.

You misread my quote:


Prior to eating out by myself, I had always eaten out with my family, so my dad had always taken care of the bill. I was unaware the tip was a big deal until I worked as a host. I was shocked I had been undertipping for so long, and quite ashamed. The same happened when I turned 21 and started drinking at bars. I didn't know bartenders should be tipped until someone told me 2 months after my 21st birthday.

I was 17 when I began eating at a sitdown restaurant by myself, not 21. 21 is around the time I first became a host.

I still believe college kids exaggerate their situation. Even if a college student has a student loan and a job as a server, they have a lot more than many other people I know.



Do any of them ever threaten the customers or is it venting away from them? If it's a genuine threat, that's one thing, but people make jokes to help deal with stress.
It's a genuinely real occurrence. I've seen videos of it and other people agree it does happen. To say that people are merely venting is preposterous.



Most of the time that I have had slow service, the server has come out and done exactly that. And leaving the customer in the dark in a good way to ensure that you will lose out on the tip.
Fabian didn't agree with the idea of telling the customer. That's what the argument was about. I'm willing to bet other servers wouldn't tell the customer either.



That's a big part of it. The customer has all the power in the situation. There isn't anything that the server can do if they get stiffed other than vent. However, if the customer gets treated badly, they can complain to management or just stop going - like I did once.

Point taken.

[Nick Soapdish]

I've been to poor places like Haiti, where people were so poor they made cakes out of mud, and Tijuana, where families of around a dozen were living in cardboard boxes, and other tragedies. When you think about it, people in the U.S. don't have much of a right to complain about suffering. That's why it's easy for me to turn a deaf ear. I'm currently living in a crummy apt., have boring oatmeal for breakfast, wear hand-me-down-clothes, can barely afford the internet but not T.V., and that thing I could call a car tends to break down when it gets really cold (and it's been really cold where I'm at for the past several weeks), but life is still good here in the United States.

People need to remember this is "the land of opportunity" and life is good here. The "woe-is-me the economy is bad" line doesn't make things better.


None of which excuses people getting stiffed on a tip. Just because somebody else has it worse doesn't mean that you don't have it bad. And getting stiffed on a tip isn't just a question of money. It's also a question of respect. People like to be appreciated for their jobs. The customer is essentially their boss and when they don't tip, they're telling the server that they did a shitty job. People tend to be offended by that, particularly when they think that they did a good job.

How long would you keep working at a place if your boss told you that you were a shitty employee every day?



You misread my quote:

I was 17 when I began eating at a sitdown restaurant by myself, not 21. 21 is around the time I first became a host.

I still believe college kids exaggerate their situation. Even if a college student has a student loan and a job as a server, they have a lot more than many other people I know.

Sorry, my mistake. So you weren't tipping for 4 years? Well, if your parents never told you, don't blame yourself. Just move on from it.

College kids do exaggerate their situation, but it's because they're people. Almost everybody exaggerates their situation.



It's a genuinely real occurrence. I've seen videos of it and other people agree it does happen. To say that people are merely venting is preposterous.


I'm not trying to argue that it never happens and and never said anything to imply as much. I'm suggesting that most of the time that people bring it up, it's just venting.

For example, did you ever see it when you were working at restaurants?



Fabian didn't agree with the idea of telling the customer. That's what the argument was about. I'm willing to bet other servers wouldn't tell the customer either.


I half agree. I imagine that he probably doesn't get the same tip as he would when the kitchen doesn't screw up, regardless of whether or not he tells. Many customers are going to suspect that he was screwing around or subconsciously take it out on him anyway.

I still think that most servers do tell. Over the last 20 years, I've eaten out about once a week so that's maybe a thousand meals. Maybe 5% of them have been "slow" and the server has almost always come and told us that it was running a bit slow. I put it in quotes because often the food wasn't slow by my standards. There are two restaurants that I go to that are almost always slow and I don't recall a server coming out to tell us that they're backed up, but I think that it's just that the restaurant is always slow so that's just the standard.

[Monty_Cristo]

I have a feeling that the people who constantly have bad service are more than likely assholes who seem to have a bad experience on every form of service provided to them, or social interactions in general.

that is almost certainly true. but, and i have no way of proving this, i've experienced bad service simply because i'm black (and the stereotype is that i won't tip). i avoid eating out because the stereotype just makes me too self-conscious. and my white friends don't get it. most of them are the type that will pool all of the tips into one pile; always leaving less than i did. in my head, i'm thinking that a) my food has probably already been tampered w/ and b) they are going to assume that i didn't leave a tip. it sounds paranoid but i've heard people repeat the stereotype (that black people don't tip & are always the most demanding of servers) as if it's a universal truth.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Not that your idea that most people in college have it easy is accurate, but:

Even if you see a young person acting as your server, don't assume she's a spoiled college kid. She could be a single mother working her ass of to feed her kid. I work with the poor and I see that all the time.

People are just trying to make it. They didn't create the system that says that they work for tips and don't make minimum wage. If they could get a better job, they would. There's no reason to be an asshole and stiff them because of things that are out of their control. So don't be an asshole. Simple rule.

That's certainly interesting about people getting "typed" and getting served accordingly. I get better service when I'm better dressed, and better service when I'm with others than when I'm alone, when you eat alone you get shunted to the saddest booths with the least attention.

Both of those things probably scream "better tips," though. The only exceptions are at Mexican restaurants where I ate so much that they just started bringing me my usual order without asking, they're usually very nice even when I'm alone and it's a surprise when I get a bad server.

[jesse_custer]

Honestly, I find it incredibly ridiculous that someone is bitching about other people bitching about their service jobs. Ignore that shit, do the right thing (that is, tip), and feel good about yourself.

[Dr. Shouts]

Nick, I wanna thank you and others for providing me with this interesting and enlightening discussion. I live in a cold, boring midwestern town, my financial situation is garbage, and the best means of entertainment for me are a dozen or so books and the internet. It feels good to discuss various topics with people around the world.

Nevertheless, I'm going to ditch this discussion because I feel we're just bickering back and forth on little nitpicks. Before I leave I wanna make the following points:

1. Food tampering is a huge offense that shouldn't be taken lightly. Although some people are venting, many people use it to threaten or intimidate customers. I've seen food tampering when I was working at Papa John's Pizza: shaking soda pop so it will fizz over on customers; putting veggies in the toilet before putting it on pizzas; farting on ingredients; etc. It was one of my first jobs and I was an imature 19 yr old who thought it was funny. If I wanted to complain, I didn't have the balls to complain to my general manager, nor did I have the balls to complain against him (I'd seen him dump cigarette ashes into the sauce several times).

2. Although many servers will tell a customer why the service is slow, just as many will not. When I hosted at Olive Garden I saw servers would notice the cooks were going slow, maybe complain to the cooks, but never tell the customer, and instead take a smoke break. Or they'd say, "You don't need to hurry up on that order, Pablo. The guy at table 45 is dressed like a total bum, and he looks like a stiff. Could you just get going on that order for table 23? That looks more promising. I'll be on a smoke break. Call me when it's done".

3. Just because a customer doesn't tip to a server's liking doesn't mean the customer is knowingly being cheap. Some patrons are genuinely ignorant of the whole thing for one reason or another.

4. It is never right for a customer to knowingly leave a poor or no tip to a server, and laugh about it. Hopefully, a customer like that gets their treatment repaid in full. If you don't like to tip then don't eat at sitdown restaurants. Homecooked meals and takeout is a suitable alternative.

That's all I have to say. Take care, everyone.

[Captain Clarkie]

Sure, why not. We haven't had this thread in a while now.

Ah, this is a another example of "The Thread with a Thousand Faces." is it? I wonder if there could be a list.

[Dreadstar]

Ah, this is a another example of "The Thread with a Thousand Faces." is it? I wonder if there could be a list.

We could manufacture one from memory.

Abortion
Gun Control
Religion (or lack thereof)
Objective vs. Subjective

...are the big four off the top of my head.

Politics is this huge ongoing clusterfuck, so I don't know if it fits or transcends the classification.

[Pumpkin Bomb]

How did Objective vs. Subjective go down?

[Dreadstar]

How did Objective vs. Subjective go down?

You make it sound like it can be condensed into a single paragraph.

[Pumpkin Bomb]

You make it sound like it can be condensed into a single paragraph.

I take it you were on the subjective side, then.

[jesse_custer]

If you want my take, it can be summed up as follows: people who believe everything is subjective don't understand that "objective" and "absolute" aren't the same thing.

[howyadoin]

This is my pet peeve. A tipping guide is in EVERY single travel magazine when coming into the states. That includes the stuff you find on the buses and trains. There's also a tipping guide on every periodical (that isn't a newspaper) in every hotel room. And it should be common courtesy to do some research on customs of the country you are visiting.ESL students in Vancouver are notorious for pretending they don't know about tipping. And that's despite all efforts on the part of the ESL schools to teach them about it.


We could manufacture one from memory.

Abortion
Gun Control
Religion (or lack thereof)
Objective vs. Subjective

...are the big four off the top of my head.Gay marriage?

Everybody who has a drink is an alcoholic?

[Jeff Brady]

I take it you were on the subjective side, then.

Why would you assume that?

[Captain Clarkie]

How did Objective vs. Subjective go down?

Depends on your point of view. ;->

Seriously, it crops up in all types of threads and gets very boring, very quickly.

[Dreadstar]

I pride myself in staying away from the Objective vs. Subjective argument for the most part. MUCH more than I stay away from the others, and I've pretty much run out of things to say in the others.