Geoff Johns' first Flash run

[dumbstruck]

I've been working on completing Wally's Flash run for the last couple years. Last week I finally got the last couple issues I needed. Over the weekend, I read the majority of John's run. While the stories are good, you can really see Johns' man-crush on Barry take root. There's more reference to Barry and how great he was than under Waid, Morrison, Augustyn, Messner-Loebs, and Baron combined. You can also really see the shift from a hero-centric title to a villain-centric title. Wally gets less and less important in his own book, the longer Johns was writing. The focus of his run was clearly on the villains. In and of itself, that's not a bad thing. But it was really at the expense of Wally.

Don't get me wrong, as I said before, the stories were good. And better than what Johns himself turned in with Rebirth. But for me, the glory days of Wally's title were clearly behind. Flash went from a book being about Wally, to being a book about his enemies. The book should have been retitled, Flash's Rogues.

[Darrell D.]

It was enjoyable enough, up to the Blitz arc. The new Zoom was one of the most uninspired villains in recent history, right down to his cliched origin.
Taking Wally back to having a secret ID was another misstep.
And, yeah, the Rogues going back to being Rogues was another setup for the Barry return, as Trickster and Piper and even Heat Wave had reformed.
And suddenly Captain Cold is this broken and damaged guy, previous interpretations be damned.
Yawn.
I did like the way Johns touched on his older supporting cast, like Chunk and the McGees.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'd hardly say it became all about the Rogues. They got a good deal of focus, but that was more about giving them development that they lacked and tying into fguture stories.

If anything Johns gave Wally the most developed cast, supporting members and villains both, of almost any character I can think of.

[dumbstruck]

If anything Johns gave Wally the most developed cast, supporting members and villains both, of almost any character I can think of.

And I'm not arguing that. I agree, actually. The thing is, he did it at Wally's expense. And he continued that style in GL. The most interesting people in Green Lantern are pretty much anyone other than Hal Jordan. And to me, that's no way to write a "solo" book. The most interesting character should be the title character.

[dumbstruck]

It was enjoyable enough,

Absolutely agree. I just don't think it's one of the best runs of Wally's series. The Waid/Augustyn and Messner-Loebs years rank higher for me.

[Darrell D.]

Absolutely agree. I just don't think it's one of the best runs of Wally's series. The Waid/Augustyn and Messner-Loebs years rank higher for me.

Absolutely, and I would throw in the Baron and Morrison/Millar runs in there as well.
The book had very consistent quality.

[dumbstruck]

Absolutely, and I would throw in the Baron and Morrison/Millar runs in there as well.
The book had very consistent quality.


Between you and me, I would too. I just didn't want to stir the pot so much as to say Johns' run is at the bottom of the list, only ahead of Waid's second run at the character. :wink:

[Darrell D.]

Well, for me, his run IS at the bottom of the list, but the list isn't that long.
And, considering the talent on that list, it really isn't an insult at all.

[The Cool Thatguy]

And I'm not arguing that. I agree, actually. The thing is, he did it at Wally's expense. And he continued that style in GL. The most interesting people in Green Lantern are pretty much anyone other than Hal Jordan. And to me, that's no way to write a "solo" book. The most interesting character should be the title character.

I thought Wally was plenty interesting. Johns made me a fan, really.

I will say though, that Johns GL differs from his first Flash run in that Johns really hasn't made an effort to write any flaws into Hal's character. Wally could be something of a jerk, and Johns was comfortable using that character wise. Hal, less so.

[Rakzo]

Oh, I see this is one of those topics.

Well, I loved Johns' first run on the Flash. It fixed something that was severely lacking in Waid's run, a supporting cast, a well developed "Rogue" gallery and a good identity of the universe around Wally West.

Although I loved Waid's first run too for giving Wally a sense of acomplishment and making him his own man (Something that was first introduced in Messner-Loebs' run, to be fair) and developing the concept of the Speed Force, I always thought that it was a bit inconsistent, there were great stories like The Return of Barry Allen and Terminal Velocity but also mediocre ones like his one-shot stories and don't make me start with the villains, they were just underdeveloped excuses to prove how great Wally was.

Oh and Messner-Loebs' run totally rocks, that's all.

[Darrell D.]

Oh, I see this is one of those topics.

Well, I loved Johns' first run on the Flash. It fixed something that was severely lacking in Waid's run, a supporting cast, a well developed "Rogue" gallery and a good identity of the universe around Wally West.

Although I loved Waid's first run too for giving Wally a sense of acomplishment and making him his own man (Something that was first introduced in Messner-Loebs' run, to be fair) and developing the concept of the Speed Force, I always thought that it was a bit inconsistent, there were great stories like The Return of Barry Allen and Terminal Velocity but also mediocre ones like his one-shot stories and don't make me start with the villains, they were just underdeveloped excuses to prove how great Wally was.

Oh and Messner-Loebs' run totally rocks, that's all.

I think Waid replaced Wally's supporting cast (under Messner-Loebs) with another supporting cast.
And Wally didn't have a Rogue's gallery, that was Barry's deal. Waid was quite good at moving Wally out of Barry's shadow, something started with Messner-Loebs.
And yes, Messner-Loebs' run was indeed great. The guy knows how to write people.
My list of runs would break down like this:
1. Messner-Loebs
2. Waid (first run)
3. Baron
4. Morrison/Millar
5. Waid (second run)
6. Johns

[dumbstruck]

Well, for me, his run IS at the bottom of the list, but the list isn't that long.
And, considering the talent on that list, it really isn't an insult at all.


Again, agreed. I just didn't want to start anything with the "Johns is super-awesome" crowd. Even though the Flash list is a short one, being last on the list of greats isn't that bad.

[dumbstruck]

Oh, I see this is one of those topics.




What exactly do you mean by that? One of what topics?

[Desaad]

I preferred Johns' run to Waids -- but a lot -- but I agree with this.

In fact, Johns agrees with this, citing the character defining work Waid did with Wally as his reason for 'needing' to go outside the individual and spend more time on the supporting cast, the villains, and the city itself. He felt - and I feel - that Waid has sort of taken Wally to a place that made him less interesting. The story that he told was satisfying and character based, but like Jack Knight at the end of Starman he was at a place that just wasn't necessarily that EXCITING anymore. Unlike Jack Knight, it was not/is not possible to leave him be.

That said, Johns has never, ever been a very good writer of a solo character. His real strength is the ability to boil down characters to their most central, crucial, powerful elements and forms and capture that in small, compelling scenes. He isn't great at development, and he isn't great at emotional or intellectual complexity. What you see is very much what you get.

You can see it throughout his work. He focuses more on mythology than anything else, especially as time goes on.

[SeritoNiN]

I read the entire run and honestly, I thought it was "meh". It wasn't bad, it wasn't good.

The only good issues that stick out right now were the origins of the villians, especially I beluieve #212, the origin of Mirror Master, that was a fantastic single issue, one of the best I've ever read from any series, but as a whole, I felt the series left much to be desired.

The current run by Johns to me, is even worse. It's just all over the place. The only thing Johns has done right consistently in my eyes, is Green Lantern. The guy is burnt out. I loved his ol stuff but nowadays, it just seems he has too many things going on to focus on writing.

[dumbstruck]

In fact, Johns agrees with this, citing the character defining work Waid did with Wally as his reason for 'needing' to go outside the individual and spend more time on the supporting cast, the villains, and the city itself. He felt - and I feel - that Waid has sort of taken Wally to a place that made him less interesting. The story that he told was satisfying and character based, but like Jack Knight at the end of Starman he was at a place that just wasn't necessarily that EXCITING anymore. Unlike Jack Knight, it was not/is not possible to leave him be.

I don't really understand this argument. If the character is in a place that makes him less interesting, than do something with him. Don't leave him there in favour of focusing almost exclusively on the supporting cast. If you can't write and/or do something interesting with the main character, than maybe you shouldn't be writing that character.

[dumbstruck]

The guy is burnt out. I loved his ol stuff but nowadays, it just seems he has too many things going on to focus on writing.

I don't know that it's burn-out. But certainly over-extension. I think he's trying to do many things, and his writing is suffering for it. I too find his work from before he was an "IT" creator to be much better than anything he's written in the last five years.

[Desaad]

I don't really understand this argument. If the character is in a place that makes him less interesting, than do something with him. Don't leave him there in favour of focusing almost exclusively on the supporting cast. If you can't write and/or do something interesting with the main character, than maybe you shouldn't be writing that character.

In the case of wally, I think he was in a genuine predictment, and I think anyone would have been.

See, Wally's was very much the 'everyman' character. The journey that you watched him go on, it wasn't with dispassionate interest. His fans, I think, were very 'connected' to that character, and his happy ending was important -- the pay off of years of trials and tribulations. He earned that happy ending. The wife. Eventually the kids.

But that happy home life, when you're dealing with a solo book, that bedrock foundation of love and support...that can be a difficult way to play things. Because their love was of COSMIC importance, so there was no way that you were ever going to have them reasonably break up. You could pull a "One More Day" and retcon the marriage away -- we saw how that went, and it was mixed at best -- but I think it was even MORE important that Wally stayed married, because the journey of them getting together was so cohesive, of such a piece, that it would have been even MORE of a slap in the face to get rid of it.

So basically there isn't a lot to do with his homelife, and he's probably going to be reasonably happy no matter what.

You can kill off his wife. But that would get rid of, I think, one of the best elements of Wally and of the Flash, the optimism. You can retcon the marriage, as I mentioned above. You can give them a divorce, or a trial separation. You can have her lost in time and/or space, but then any adventure he has NOT looking for her is going to seem unrealistic and cold hearted and unreasonable.

So immediately you're going to turn it into a primarily plot driven book.

I'm sure a superlative writer could have done a better job of keeping it character centric, but I think Johns did pretty much the best with what he had, and I thought his run was pretty excellent.

I think the success (or lack thereof) of the second Waid arc demonstrates that especially well. Same with the Peyer arc which followed. I don't even remember if there was anymore. I won't blame the mediocrity of the Cavalieri arc on the status quo, because I've never read anything from him that I've thought was good.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I don't really understand this argument. If the character is in a place that makes him less interesting, than do something with him. Don't leave him there in favour of focusing almost exclusively on the supporting cast. If you can't write and/or do something interesting with the main character, than maybe you shouldn't be writing that character.

That's pretty much what Johns did, though, when he gave Wally back his secret ID :tongue:

[Darrell D.]

That's pretty much what Johns did, though, when he gave Wally back his secret ID :tongue:

That's pretty much the opposite of interesting, though.
Tired is a more apt term.

[dumbstruck]

In the case of wally, I think he was in a genuine predictment, and I think anyone would have been.

See, Wally's was very much the 'everyman' character. The journey that you watched him go on, it wasn't with dispassionate interest. His fans, I think, were very 'connected' to that character, and his happy ending was important -- the pay off of years of trials and tribulations. He earned that happy ending. The wife. Eventually the kids.

But that happy home life, when you're dealing with a solo book, that bedrock foundation of love and support...that can be a difficult way to play things. Because their love was of COSMIC importance, so there was no way that you were ever going to have them reasonably break up. You could pull a "One More Day" and retcon the marriage away -- we saw how that went, and it was mixed at best -- but I think it was even MORE important that Wally stayed married, because the journey of them getting together was so cohesive, of such a piece, that it would have been even MORE of a slap in the face to get rid of it.

So basically there isn't a lot to do with his homelife, and he's probably going to be reasonably happy no matter what.

You can kill off his wife. But that would get rid of, I think, one of the best elements of Wally and of the Flash, the optimism. You can retcon the marriage, as I mentioned above. You can give them a divorce, or a trial separation. You can have her lost in time and/or space, but then any adventure he has NOT looking for her is going to seem unrealistic and cold hearted and unreasonable.

So immediately you're going to turn it into a primarily plot driven book.

I'm sure a superlative writer could have done a better job of keeping it character centric, but I think Johns did pretty much the best with what he had, and I thought his run was pretty excellent.

I think the success (or lack thereof) of the second Waid arc demonstrates that especially well. Same with the Peyer arc which followed. I don't even remember if there was anymore. I won't blame the mediocrity of the Cavalieri arc on the status quo, because I've never read anything from him that I've thought was good.

I understand what you're saying, and to an extent I agree with it. However, the book is FLASH, not FLASH'S ROGUES or FLASH'S SUPPORTING CAST. If Johns didn't have a good idea about where to go with the main character, than DC and it's creative staff should've brainstormed to come up with something. But reading it all at once, there seemed to have been the idea of removing Wally from the playing field from quite early on. There were lines of dialogue that seemed to foreshadow this event. Johns's contribution to Wally's character always seemed to be moving towards taking him off the table. (Of course, this may just be me reading something into it, in hindsight.) This is bolstered by his constant battering us over the head with how great Barry was pretty much since he started on the the title.

It just kinda seems like the plan always was to replace Wally with Barry. "Why do anything new and interesting with Wally if we're just replacing him? We'll just keep the status quo until we actually do it."

Like I said before, his run was enjoyable enough, and I may be seeing things that weren't there at the time, but reading it all at once, and looking back in hindsight, it does seem to raise a few questions about what the plan was all along.

[dumbstruck]

That's pretty much what Johns did, though, when he gave Wally back his secret ID :tongue:

...which killed part of what made Wally so unique. Everyone knew who he was. Everyone loved him for it. Everyone was his friend, and he was friend to everyone.

[The Cool Thatguy]

That's pretty much the opposite of interesting, though.
Tired is a more apt term.

When Waid was done, Wally was a hero because he was a hero, living with a loving wife, steady income and public identity that made him a celeb whereever he went. All his enemies were Lex Luthor types bent on power on a grand scale, and the Rogues were beneath Wally's notice, jokes or afterthoughts.

That, good sir, defines boring :tongue:

[dumbstruck]

When Waid was done, Wally was a hero because he was a hero, living with a loving wife, steady income and public identity that made him a celeb whereever he went. All his enemies were Lex Luthor types bent on power on a grand scale, and the Rogues were beneath Wally's notice, jokes or afterthoughts.

That, good sir, defines boring :tongue:

I have no problem with amping up the Rogues to make them more of a threat to Wally. But doing so did not necessarily require the return of a secret identity.

[The Cool Thatguy]

...which killed part of what made Wally so unique. Everyone knew who he was. Everyone loved him for it. Everyone was his friend, and he was friend to everyone.

Yerah, but it killed his motivation, interaction with normal people and his day to day life. Reading about a hero who's just standing around (figuratively), waiting for something to happen?

Screw that. It lacks urgency, tension and drama. He doesn't have to be Spider-Man, always hard up for a buck, but get his butt outta the house!

[The Cool Thatguy]

I have no problem with amping up the Rogues to make them more of a threat to Wally. But doing so did not necessarily require the return of a secret identity.

True, the secret ID was a different issue. The secret ID allowed Johns to better define Wally as an everyman, and give him some non Flash interaction with people.

[dumbstruck]

Yerah, but it killed his motivation, interaction with normal people and his day to day life. Reading about a hero who's just standing around (figuratively), waiting for something to happen?

Screw that. It lacks urgency, tension and drama. He doesn't have to be Spider-Man, always hard up for a buck, but get his butt outta the house!

Which is why he needed such a strong supporting cast. The human drama part of the character revolved around his interaction with the secondary characters. There was no reason this had to change. It did. And the secret identity didn't help, for me.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Which is why he needed such a strong supporting cast. The human drama part of the character revolved around his interaction with the secondary characters. There was no reason this had to change. It did. And the secret identity didn't help, for me.

Did for me. Before, any interaction with Wally characters had was 90% Flash interaction. Afterwards, it was easy to get a feel for Wally's characters, because most of the cast wasn't speaking to The Flash, but Wally West.

That's not to say the execution was all that great, though...

[Darrell D.]

...which killed part of what made Wally so unique. Everyone knew who he was. Everyone loved him for it. Everyone was his friend, and he was friend to everyone.

Yeah, absolutely. It finally crossed that line into just another boring super-hero comic.

[Darrell D.]

When Waid was done, Wally was a hero because he was a hero, living with a loving wife, steady income and public identity that made him a celeb whereever he went. All his enemies were Lex Luthor types bent on power on a grand scale, and the Rogues were beneath Wally's notice, jokes or afterthoughts.

That, good sir, defines boring :tongue:

But it wasn't boring. Waid was a talented enough writer to NOT make it boring.

[The Cool Thatguy]

But it wasn't boring. Waid was a talented enough writer to NOT make it boring.

For you, at any rate. Personally, I got tired after the million and one speedforce story :wink:

[dumbstruck]

Did for me. Before, any interaction with Wally characters had was 90% Flash interaction. Afterwards, it was easy to get a feel for Wally's characters, because most of the cast wasn't speaking to The Flash, but Wally West.

That's not to say the execution was all that great, though...


Except most of his supporting cast knows he's Flash. Other than that particular story where the secret identity was reintroduced, 201-205, the interaction you're referring to is still 90% Flash interaction. There really wasn't that much of a change. The secret identity didn't add anything to his interaction with his supporting cast.

[dumbstruck]

For you, at any rate. Personally, I got tired after the million and one speedforce story :wink:


It just was changed from the million and one speed force stories to the million and one Barry was great stories. :wink:

[Darrell D.]

I liked the Speedforce stories. It captured the wide sweeping concepts of the Sliver Age and merged it successfully within the confines of a modern comic, much in the same way Morrison did with his JLA run.

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

It's one of those runs I lapped up at the time, but I'm not sure I'd feel the same if I were reading it now.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Except most of his supporting cast knows he's Flash. Other than that particular story where the secret identity was reintroduced, 201-205, the interaction you're referring to is still 90% Flash interaction. There really wasn't that much of a change. The secret identity didn't add anything to his interaction with his supporting cast.

It changed how he interacted with the cops, it changed in that he could have a convincing job that reflected his character and added a little tension to his life.

[dumbstruck]

It changed how he interacted with the cops, it changed in that he could have a convincing job that reflected his character and added a little tension to his life.

Disagree. The police, whether they know his identity or not, were still talking to him as The Flash, resident superhero. There was no substantial difference pre- or post-secret identity. It's not like they were all friends when they knew who he was, and suddenly super-suspicious when they didn't.

How is working as an auto mechanic reflective of Wally's character. You kinda lost me on that. Prior to that story, I can't remember any mention that Wally liked to work on cars. While it makes sense for him to have a job (he does need to pay his bills, after all), I don't see how mechanic is necessarily indicative of his character. If anything, and having been shown rebuilding houses etc at superspeed many times in the past, it would've been more convincing if they gave him a job as construction worker or general contractor.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Disagree. The police, whether they know his identity or not, were still talking to him as The Flash, resident superhero. There was no substantial difference pre- or post-secret identity. It's not like they were all friends when they knew who he was, and suddenly super-suspicious when they didn't.

How is working as an auto mechanic reflective of Wally's character. You kinda lost me on that. Prior to that story, I can't remember any mention that Wally liked to work on cars. While it makes sense for him to have a job (he does need to pay his bills, after all), I don't see how mechanic is necessarily indicative of his character.

The cops wouldn't have suspected Flash of attempting to hurt Zolomon's wife ;)

As for the cars, it's simply an everyman day job. Johns recast Wally as a blue collar kinda of guy, which works with his upbringiong, and working on cars does that.

[dumbstruck]

The cops wouldn't have suspected Flash of attempting to hurt Zolomon's wife ;)

As for the cars, it's simply an everyman day job. Johns recast Wally as a blue collar kinda of guy, which works with his upbringiong, and working on cars does that.

So one plot point from one story is = to substantial changes in character interactions within the title? Yes, for that story, it created some tension. But Johns has a habit of changing/retconning things simply to service a particular story he wants to tell.

"What if Wally was accused of attempted murder?"

"But he's Flash. Nobody would believe he'd be capable of that".

"That's okay. We can give him a secret identity, and then nobody knows Wally's The Flash. We can do it then."

I'm not saying the story wasn't entertaining, just that aside from that particular plot point, there really was little impact to interaction with the supporting cast.

I see where you're going with the mechanic job, but I do think it's a bit of stretch. Without any previous mentions he likes to work on cars, he's suddenly shown to be an expert mechanic? Like I said, something in construction would've made more sense for the character. After all, he's been constantly shown rebuilding and repairing damage from his super-hero fights for decades.

[The Cool Thatguy]

So one plot point from one story is = to substantial changes in character interactions within the title? Yes, for that story, it created some tension. But Johns has a habit of changing/retconning things simply to service a particular story he wants to tell.

"What if Wally was accused of attempted murder?"

"But he's Flash. Nobody would believe he'd be capable of that".

"That's okay. We can give him a secret identity, and then nobody knows Wally's The Flash. We can do it then."

I'm not saying the story wasn't entertaining, just that aside from that particular plot point, there really was little impact to interaction with the supporting cast.

I see where you're going with the mechanic job, but I do think it's a bit of stretch. Without any previous mentions he likes to work on cars, he's suddenly shown to be an expert mechanic? Like I said, something in construction would've made more sense for the character. After all, he's been constantly shown rebuilding and repairing damage from his super-hero fights for decades.

It had and has potential for more interactions, more than public hero allowed for, IMO.

As for working on cars, eh, that's a minor nitpick. Wally needed a blue collar job, and that was as good as any (especially given that a mechanic has less flexiable hours ;))

[dumbstruck]

It had and has potential for more interactions, more than public hero allowed for, IMO.

As for working on cars, eh, that's a minor nitpick. Wally needed a blue collar job, and that was as good as any (especially given that a mechanic has less flexiable hours ;))

Well, having just read the bulk of Johns' run over the last two days, I have to say I can't agree adding the secret identity did a whole lot for character interactions among the supporting cast. It makes me think we haven't read the same comics. We'll just have disagree.

As to his job of mechanic, it just seems so out of left field. There are so many other jobs that would've made more sense given what was already established for the character.

Wally: "It's in construction."
LInda: "Is that really what you want to do?"
Wally: "Yeah. All those times I helped to rebuild somebody's home after knocking it down in a fight with Grodd, just makes me feel great to give something back to those people who lost everything because of me."

Makes more sense then suddenly showing him as Wally Goodwrench.

[Darrell D.]

Seems to me that Johns read the X-men/Titans crossover, in which Wally took apart a car at super speed, proclaiming that he knew that auto class he took at college would come in handy some day.

[Seven_Ride]

I think Waid's first run is the best Flash run.

But Johns' run would be # 2 for me, especially with regards to villains and world-building. The rogues, the blue-collar feel of the city, Iron Heights, Wally's civilian job and the slow burn of the new Zoom were all very well done. I thought it lost momentum circa Identitiy Crisis, and I stopped reading during Rogue War (which is the story Rebith most reminded me most of).

Halfway through Rebirth I figured Johns was doing what Waid in his second Flash run; losing steam. Though so far the ongoing has been very strong.

[Desaad]

I thought Waid had really lost it by the time he came back the first time -- after the Morrison/Millar run.

Evil twins! Hahahaha.

[Mr. Holmes]

I thought Waid had really lost it by the time he came back the first time -- after the Morrison/Millar run.

Evil twins! Hahahaha.

Agreed. Although I kind of liked Chain Lightning, the "evil twin" shtick was just downright shameful. It's a low point in Waid's writing career in general. Wild Wild Wests was also pretty boring, with the quasi-Incredibles thing going on.

[Karl O'Neill]

I tend to like Waids, Johns and Morrisons runs on the Flash quite a lot. Millar's name is attached to the short Morrison run and I have no idea what his input into that run was----dialogue, ideas or plots? any takers?

2011 is the year of skillfully avoiding fanboy attacks so I'll say why I think Johns run is the best and my personal favourite.

1) It resonated more with me than Morrisons or Waids.

2) His excellent character work with the Rogues and other supporting characters.

3) The creation of Zoom. One of my all-time favourite villains---Broken speech-patterns and all......:biggrin:

4) His plots felt grandeur, fresher and overall more fantastical and sci fi than any other writers runs.

5) Better art---Scott Kollins is the definitive Flash artist.

[Dave Hackett]

Millar's name is attached to the short Morrison run and I have no idea what his input into that run was----dialogue, ideas or plots? any takers?


In the year Waid was gone, Morrison and Millar co-wrote the book, which consisted of 4 3-issue arcs. It's been stated that each were the primary writer on 2 arcs with the other polishing, but they've never confessed to it, or to who wrote what (though the "Human Race" has Morrison all over it).

This was at the same time Millar and Morrison worked together on both Swamp Thing and Aztek. They were frequent collaborators until the Authority mess and Millar left for Marvel.

[Ilash]

Just to throw my 2 cents in, Johns' Flash run - up until Zoom snapped his fingers in Blitz - is absolutely one of my favourite things he's done. Admittedly, lately that's not saying much but it is a reminder of what he was once capable of before he started doing crap like Blackest Night, Flash Rebirth and Infine Crisis. That said, it was definitely a mixture of the good with the bad.

First, the good:

1) Scott Kollins. I don't think he's the definitive Flash artist, to be sure, but he gave the book a very unique look.

2) The development of the Rogues, in particular Captain Cold. Great, great stuff there.

3) Some really enjoyable plots along the way.

4) Gave Keystone a real sense of place and identity

5) Gave Wally a great supporting cast beyond just fellow speedsters.

That said, there were some definite problems.

1) He essentially did nothing with Wally as a character until the end of Blitz. That's a problem when you consider how much Messner-Loebs and Waid had done before him.

2) The minute Zoom snapped his fingers and killed - albeit temporarily - Wally and Linda's unborn children, the book went down the crapper and fast. It had some nice art by Risso and Porter and some of the basic plots were OK but the book was damaged beyond repair for the following reasons: (Too. Many. Lists!)

a) Wally was basically turned into Barry-lite. He suddenly worked as part of the police force, had a secret identity again and his fun, cocky personality was all but replaced by a much more generic good guy role.

b) He took a character defined by his optimism and gave him a brand new tragic angle that didn't fit at all. Johns does this a lot and it never fails to annoy the hell out of me. Trying to shoehorn this kind of darkness into one of comics' "lightest" superheroes was just an unbelievably stupid move - and that he's decided to repeat the same with Barry Freakin' Allen certainly doesn't make me want to be charitable to his latest writing.

So, for me he is waaaaaaay behind Waid's first run and thanks, to his post-Blitz work, still behind Waid's return after Morrison and Millar (whose run was excellent until Pop Mahn came on as artist) even with the rubbish Evil Twin story from that time. I like the pre-Blitz stuff a bit more than Messner-Loebs run and the post-Blitz stuff a whole lot less. As for Waid's third run, I didn't like that the kids had grown up and gotten weird powers and the alien invasion plot was kinda weak but it was too short to really judge it as a proper run on a title. I hated the art though.

[dumbstruck]

a) Wally was basically turned into Barry-lite. He suddenly worked as part of the police force, had a secret identity again and his fun, cocky personality was all but replaced by a much more generic good guy role.

Thank you.

[Darrell D.]

So, for me he is waaaaaaay behind Waid's first run and thanks, to his post-Blitz work, still behind Waid's return after Morrison and Millar (whose run was excellent until Pop Mahn came on as artist) even with the rubbish Evil Twin story from that time. I like the pre-Blitz stuff a bit more than Messner-Loebs run and the post-Blitz stuff a whole lot less. As for Waid's third run, I didn't like that the kids had grown up and gotten weird powers and the alien invasion plot was kinda weak but it was too short to really judge it as a proper run on a title. I hated the art though.

Yeah, I would agree with this, but, man, am I the only one who dug Pop Mahn's art?
As I said, his run is at the bottom, but considering the level of talent the book had throughout its life, that isn't really a bad thing.