Captain America #22 *Spoilers*

[Expletive Deleted]

CAP #22 - The Brube & Perkins - Out Today . . .

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So . . . this issue is Agent 13 chatting with a SHIELD psychiatrist in the wake of CIVIL WAR #1. She's torn between her natural loathing for superheroes and her love for Cap. There's a nice sequence where you think she's betrayed him, only for it turn out that she purposefully told SHIELD the wrong spot for an ambush. It's a really nicely choreographed scene.

Anywho, the psychiatrist turns out to be a blast from the past . . . Dr. Faustus! And he supposedly manipulated Sharon into falling for Cap! And he's working for the Red Skull/Lukin!

All around, a great issue. Perkins does a superb job.

On the "Civil War" front, not much happens. It's mostly about SHIELD's perspective in light of the attack on Cap, with Ed doing some spin control to keep characters like Sharon and Dum-Dum from seeming like total assholes. And I love Skull's line about the heroes "forgetting who their real enemy is."

[Jack]

Poor Cap..

[mrc1214]

This issue showed me at least like maybe some of the SHIELD agents may actually care. And also like Red Skull said there forgetting who the real enemy is. Good job by Brubaker.

[Harold of the Rocks]

Just finished this book. Dr. Faustus? No Way! I only have maybe 4 old Cap issues before Brubaker, and this is taking me back to the whole Faustus/Grand Director craziness! Too cool. Anyone want to be so kind as to flesh out "what he's been up to"? What were some of his last appearances? When and how did he die?

Red Skull is pulling some serious strings if he can get Sharon to be required to sit down with a S.H.I.E.L.D. appointed shrink, only to be Faustus incognito! Ya gotta love Brubaker... now if he brings back Arnim Zola and my boy Primus, I may have to undergo a sex change... just so I can have his baby!! And I thought the kid's braces were gonna be expensive!

[Expletive Deleted]

I think he was killed by Jack Monroe (Nomad) in his solo series. Not sure about the exact issue number, though.

[CE_Rap]

I was reading this issue while i was at the book store. The art attracted me (a fan of D'Armata's coloring). Very soulful. I'm a Cap fan, but i haven't really read anything of his. I know the jist of things, but that's it. So i was pleasantly surprised at how good this issue was.

I gotta join teh crowd of Red Skull lovers. That really was a great line he said. The saddest part is that it's true. After the heroes finish demolishing each other, the super villians are going to take over.

...........either that or Tony will commision them for the pro-side.

[Kevinroc]

I think this is how Brubker's Cap tie-ins are supposed to work. With the first issue devoted to Sharon, the 2nd devoted to Bucky and the 3rd devoted to Cap. I guess somebody at Marvel thought Bucky was interesting enough he could get another tie-in to CW.

Brubaker was pushing his story forward a little but clearly not on the level that X-Factor was during their tie-in issues. The reference to New Avengers #21 was interesting enough.

Curious about that Red Skull plot but that's definitely put on the back-burner for a bit.

[StoneGold]

Mmmm, betrayal sex.



Although the real gimmick here, that I don't believe anyone has mentioned yet, is that Faustus was the guy who led to Sharon's "death."

[StoneGold]

Curious about that Red Skull plot but that's definitely put on the back-burner for a bit.
Skip out on the last page there? This is Johan's plot.



Speaking of which, was it me, or was the mask not fitting on Skull's face properly? In case Brubaker stops by, was that intentional, or just something with the art or the coloring? Because it looked like it wasn't coming down all the way over the lower jaw.

[Kevinroc]

Skip out on the last page there? This is Johan's plot.


No, I read the last page. What I meant was that the Skull plot will be moving a little slower now as CW takes focus.

[Ult. Fireboy]

I liked the story. I like how Agent 13 can't decide to turn him in to the capekillers or turn with him. You almost know that the Civil War is going to tear them apart.:(
Red Skull is another villain on the loose probably to attack in Civil War 5 like the rest.:eek:

[RDWoody21]

I think this is probably one of the best tie-ins so far. Not alot of people really end up looking like complete douchebags. Which is good, because neither side SHOULD be wrong, it should just be a difference of opinions. And it actually kinda touches a bit more of a human side of it all with Agent 13's story. Good job Brubaker, good job.

[jsg2295]

I believe this was the best spin-off of CW I have read so far.
I think the reason for this is that I didnt have to read a long diatribe by Cap as to why he joined the Anti-side and why he has done the things he has done while leading them (Honestly I dont even think Brubaker knows!).
My only complaint was the last pages, where it was revealed that the psych guy was Faustas...it seemed a bit corny to me.
Still..it was an enjoyable read and that is something I havent written about any of the spin-offs so far.

[CMBMOOL]

So does this mean that the romantic relationship between Captain America and Sharon Carter is a false relationship ? :(

Cause if that's true then the Skull is even more evil than I could imagine if he is to create a false romantic relationship. :mad:

[Miss Kitty Fantastico]

I was pleasantly surprised by that - the preview (whether by chance or, the cynic in me wonders, deliberately) implied a much less balanced, thoughtful portrayal of the characters than was the case. Far from disliking what I saw of Agent 13 in the preview, I'm not more intrigued by her than by Cap. And thank the goddess that someone else is interested in looking at Maria Hill as a more complex character than an Evil Bitch Queen From Hell stereotype.

My only issue - a minor one - was that the debate between 13 and Cap fell too quickly and easily into the 'duelling quotes' formula, which doesn't really prove anything for either side. There's plenty of pithy one-liners in support of either freedom or security - I want to hear Cap's reasoning for why this situation demands rebellion, not how many comparable situations he can draw from the history books.

Regardless of that, the book has got me on-side in the space of one issue, which ain't at all bad. I won't be sticking with it post-CW - I'm a heroines-only reader - but I imagine a lot of people picking up Civil War will read this, for more info on one of the major characters of the miniseries, and this is a good shot at getting them to keep buying.

[Xanrn]

I am pretty sure the Red Skull is that Russian businessman and he is just wearing a mask.

[BigBoss]

I really didint like this issue It really didint tell me anything about cap except for a few pages of debate between sharon and cap other then that I really didint like this issue but thats probally cause I reallly want cap to get back to his normal life and nfight zemo and red skull etc but just cause the first issue of this arc wasent that great doesent mean the others wont be 3/5

[Kefky]

I really didint like this issue It really didint tell me anything about cap except for a few pages of debate between sharon and cap other then that I really didint like this issue but thats probally cause I reallly want cap to get back to his normal life and nfight zemo and red skull etc but just cause the first issue of this arc wasent that great doesent mean the others wont be 3/5

Wow, I got out of breath just from reading that! :eek:

[Slumber Hulk]

Snoooze fest! Perhaps one of the most boring talking head pieces in recent history. At least Illuninati had a fight between Namor and Iron Man and all the talking was new info.

BigBoss has it right, nothing happened.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

Nice to see Cap in character.

[sherlockbones]

Snoooze fest! Perhaps one of the most boring talking head pieces in recent history. At least Illuninati had a fight between Namor and Iron Man and all the talking was new info.

BigBoss has it right, nothing happened.
words bad! slumber hulk wants more action ;)
http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=186
A few good things happened, they had gotten more sophisticated, but they were more and more cult oriented, more collector oriented. So by the mid-70s, the audience was way smaller, very few new readers coming in, very few young readers coming in. It was almost like it had become the fan's medium, like us just talking to ourselves.

And so, I had a very determined goal to try to broaden the reach of comics. I didn't think there was anything wrong with reaching the hardcore fan -- I felt like I was in that group -- but I wanted to have comics for everybody. We tried to reach older with Epic Comics, we tried to reach younger with Star Comics, and in general, tried to make the comics more readable, more acceptable so they could be read by everybody. And I also tried to broaden the point of view. I encouraged people to take a point of view.

When I walked in there, I had people tell me things like, well, you can't really have much story, because you have to have 3 fights an issue. Who tells you this crap? Where did you get that? ...They didn't get them from me.

One time I actually challenged Doug Moench. I said, write a Master of Kung-Fu with no fight, just make it a great story. And he did, it was one of his better issues. It was pretty good. I was trying to expand the horizons. I lucked out and got some really talented people there. And I think the female point of view was partly successful why the X-Men was so successful. Louise and Ann -- Chris will tell you -- they were great contributors to the X-Men.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
i love that book. especially cause it picked up lot of things that people were discussing in the "tony/reed war profiteering" thread.
what is good for the people and who decides for them. sure it was a bit superficial from an intellectual pov , but it accomplished many things in limit of 21 pages.
therapist sessions have a good history at marvel. pad´s x-factor came to my mind. real shocker in the end, keep me thrilled brubaker!
2 thumps up

[Hiromi]

High points, Hill getting chewed out(I wanna see that happen more!) And Dumdum's bit. I miss Fury something fierce.

[Magneto Rocks]

Loved this issue.

In one issue, it made far more excellent pro-reg arguments than have been made in many other titles. Which is very odd considering this is CAPTAIN AMERICA.

Possibly the most balanced issue of any CW tie-in yet, this was absoloutely fantastic. Indeed, it is already coming VERY close to toppling Spidey off the 'best CW tie-in series' spot. Superb issue. It didn#'t focus on Cap but explained his views very well, also explained some pro-reg views, made Maria Hill seem less evil, made me like Agent 13 (Sleeping with the person you plan to betray is the new way to go, it seems) and was in general a great issue- loved the Red Skull plot at the end.

Can't wait to see what happens next!

[gorthon616]

Loved this issue.

In one issue, it made far more excellent pro-reg arguments than have been made in many other titles. Which is very odd considering this is CAPTAIN AMERICA.

Possibly the most balanced issue of any CW tie-in yet, this was absoloutely fantastic. Indeed, it is already coming VERY close to toppling Spidey off the 'best CW tie-in series' spot. Superb issue. It didn#'t focus on Cap but explained his views very well, also explained some pro-reg views, made Maria Hill seem less evil, made me like Agent 13 (Sleeping with the person you plan to betray is the new way to go, it seems) and was in general a great issue- loved the Red Skull plot at the end.

Can't wait to see what happens next!

I only thumbed through it, but I agree. It seemed pretty good (and not just as far as CW goes). I would pick it up, but I always loved Morrison's Marvel Boy, and so I decided to pick up the Runaways/YAvengers (plus I like those characters alot too).

[StoneGold]

I am pretty sure the Red Skull is that Russian businessman and he is just wearing a mask.
Positive of it. Well, Lukin with the Skull's mind riding piggyback.

[StarsAndGarters]

I was a bit confused about who Dr. Faustus was, but the twist with him messing with Sharon's feelings was really effective. It totally fit with how she and Cap just kind of fell back together. It's a weird bit of synchronicity with She-Hulk, but both of them have been really good.

[StoneGold]

I was a bit confused about who Dr. Faustus was, but the twist with him messing with Sharon's feelings was really effective. It totally fit with how she and Cap just kind of fell back together. It's a weird bit of synchronicity with She-Hulk, but both of them have been really good.
Like most cliffhanger reveals in comics these days, you really have to know who the guy is to fully enjoy the cliffhanger.

[StarsAndGarters]

Like most cliffhanger reveals in comics these days, you really have to know who the guy is to fully enjoy the cliffhanger.So... what did Faustus do? Has he messed with Sharon's head before?

[kalorama]

Outstanding issue. I really felt for Sharon. A nice job (as usual) by Brubaker.

[StoneGold]

So... what did Faustus do? Has he messed with Sharon's head before?
Yeah. Got her to apparently commit suicide. Except she didn't, so I don't know exactly how that is going to be explained. But you know how Sharon was dead for a long time? The way it was originally explained, it was Faustus' fault.

[kalorama]

Yeah. Got her to apparently commit suicide. Except she didn't, so I don't know exactly how that is going to be explained. But you know how Sharon was dead for a long time? The way it was originally explained, it was Faustus' fault.

When Mark Waid brought her back, I believe he explained that her death was faked and that she then spent the time since on deep cover assignement for SHIELD.

[Jerry Kraut]

Yeah. Got her to apparently commit suicide. Except she didn't, so I don't know exactly how that is going to be explained. But you know how Sharon was dead for a long time? The way it was originally explained, it was Faustus' fault.

Poor guy all the work, and nothing to show for it.
Strange how this issues cliffhanger is so ...soapy,"wahahaha she doesn't love you well not really" , and yet threatening.
I wonder what Red Skull's big plan for Civil War is, opening a bottle of champagne, lit a cigar and watch CNN?

[The Shadow]

Some information on Faustus:

In Captain America #232- 236 (April - August, 1979) - by writers Roger McKenzie, Jim Shooter and Michael Fleisher and artist Sal Buscema, "Captain America" is revived and brainwashed by the psychologist Doctor Faustus into becoming the Neo-Nazi "Grand Director". Under Faustus' control "The Grand Director" shoots and apparently kills his former partner Bucky. At the storyline's conclusion Faustus and The Director are defeated by the original Captain America and Daredevil after which The Grand Director commits suicide.

Info from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomad_%28comics%29)

[The Shadow]

Some Information on Sharon's "death"


While working as a S.H.I.E.L.D. liaison with the New York Police Department, Sharon investigated and infiltrated a white supremacist terrorist organization known as the National Force. During on of the National Force's battles with street criminals in Harlem, the National Guard was sent in to put an end to it. Under the effects of a mind-altering gas, however, Sharon apparently activated a self-destruct device in her National Force uniform and committed suicide. Rogers was shown the event on videotape[1], but in fact her death had been faked so that Sharon could be free to go on a top secret mission for S.H.I.E.L.D. The mission did not go well, and Nick Fury, S.H.I.E.L.D.'s Executive Director, believed her to have been killed in action. Captain America was therefore not informed of the true circumstances of her "death".

However, Sharon was not dead, but had been left behind in enemy territory, a captive of the dictator Tap-Kwai. Escaping, she spent several years working as a mercenary, until she came across a group of Neo-Nazi extremists known as the Kubecult. Learning that they were planning to use the Cosmic Cube to return Adolf Hitler to life, Sharon joined forces with the villanous Red Skull to stop them, but they also needed Captain America.

At this point, Rogers was suffering health problems: the Super-Soldier serum that gave him his abilities was breaking down and had placed him in a coma. As the Red Skull was currently occupying a cloned body of Rogers himself, a transfusion of the Skull's blood — with an uncontaminated Super-Soldier formula — was able to restore and revive Rogers. Rogers was shocked to find Sharon alive, and over the course of the mission to topple the cult discovered that her years out in the cold had given her a more ruthless, grimmer personality.


Thanks to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharon_Carter)

[MakeMineMarvel]

Awesome issue. Bru is probably my favorite writer at the moment. He could wipe his butt on a piece of paper and I would probably buy it. The book was interesting as anything and it had hardly any action scenes in it at all, yet I was intrigued by the story. I don't think there are many writers who could pull that off and still tell an entertaining story. It tied into Civil War so perfectly as well. Red Skull is such a devious evil bastard that you almost like him. The artwork was beautiful as usual.
Never really read Cap before on a regular basis but I have been hooked since issue 1.

[StoneGold]

I wonder what Red Skull's big plan for Civil War is, opening a bottle of champagne, lit a cigar and watch CNN?
Skull doesn't smoke cigars. He smokes cigarettes in those wacky holder things. Assuming he's still allowed to smoke. Because JoeQ doesn't like smoking.

[The Shadow]

Assuming he's still allowed to smoke. Because JoeQ doesn't like smoking.
The bad guys can smoke.

[Jerry Kraut]

The bad guys can smoke.

And Wolverine can plug Lucky Strike. Not smoke though, only wave the pack around. The best there is, indeed.


Wouldn't it be funny if the Red-Latex-Mask fascist and the Purple-Sock-Mask fascist would get a mini series together? Something like Cable/Deadpool, written by Giffen. The plot could be something about them moving together and, i don't know open a cabaret group.

[bulbasteve]

And Wolverine can plug Lucky Strike. Not smoke though, only wave the pack around. The best there is, indeed.


Wouldn't it be funny if the Red-Latex-Mask fascist and the Purple-Sock-Mask fascist would get a mini series together? Something like Cable/Deadpool, written by Giffen. The plot could be something about them moving together and, i don't know open a cabaret group.

What!?! That's a mask!? I seriously thought for all these years he had some sort of Nazi super accident and had a skull head. That looks nothing like a mask...how does he even talk with it, does the jaw move?

[Jmacq1]

What!?! That's a mask!? I seriously thought for all these years he had some sort of Nazi super accident and had a skull head. That looks nothing like a mask...how does he even talk with it, does the jaw move?

It's varied off and on whether it's his "actual face" or just a mask. In his early (WW II and early modern age) career, it was a mask. Then for a while (circa Captain America #350), he'd been exposed to his own "death dust" (Kinda like Joker venom: Kills victims and makes their heads shrivel into a red skull), but since he was partially immune, his head turned into a red skull but he didn't die. Presently, since he's trapped in Lukin's body, presumably he'd have to use a mask again.

So that's it in a nutshell, minus the multiple deaths and resurrections and whatnot. ;)

Kinda bummed that Sharon's feelings for Cap aren't entirely "genuine"....it's not like that relationship -needs- another "on again, off again" cycle. But Red Skull gets mad bonus points for vocalizing what so many of us have been thinking for the duration of "Civil War". ;)

[Jerry Kraut]

See that was his original body now that he's in ...his third or so non-original body(Lukin's) i'm just assuming he wears a mask (what with Lukin having a face). I don't know why, but the Skull ALWAYS sports his, well errr unique appearance even when he had a cloned Steve Rogers body. It might be a fashion statment or he doesn't want to admit he forgot his real name or something.
Or you know he's just listening to his brand manager.

[jackolover]

This is the story I wanted to see told in FF, about Sue and Reed. They have sex, then they discuss their differences. It was a good discussion, and there should be more, because the dynamic of having a pro-reg lover in bed with you, is so intriguing, if you're an anti-reg.

Sharons views on capes is very surprising, in that she can do without capes, and this, considering she has to deal with Captain America. I suppose I would put her in the same catagory as Fury, because he is also a non-powered, and has to deal with supers, who do. To my mind, Fury is the representative of the human population, (as is Sharon), and he is charged with being controller ,so it looks like humans are still in charge. (This is another story I want Marvel to tell - having humans realise they aren't the ones in charge of this universe anymore. Supers are). So it follows that Sharon would want supers to be reigned in.

We have, now, seen Caps arguments for his stance on SHRA, and it seems Steve and Sharon come from 2 different worlds on this.

Sharon is trying to live in a world of beings capable of anything imaginable.
Cap is living in a world where he is used to the freedom of Supers to operate. I suppose he has dragged his War-time experiences into peacetime, combat situations. He's never known what it is like to be forced to behave as a peacetime private citizen.

Place these two people together - Sharon, nearly shell-shocked into a rediculous world-view with supers - Cap, out of time, and coming from a group of people with wild abilities and devices. It is intriguing to see when they meet in Sharons safe house, that they kiss passionately, and make love like wartime lovers, despite being separated by planes of difference, as though they come from different dimensions.

Yet they find common ground in which to exist. They see their differences before them, glaringly, but don't break their trust in each other. Here would be a great battle ground to explore, and I hope Brubaker takes the opportunity to do so.

[jackolover]

I never found this thread, because I don't think anyone bothered to start one at the time. Pity. It holds one of the resounding arguments that Cap makes for why he is fighting the government against the SHRA.

Sharon Carter argues to Cap that he shouldn't be fighting the government because he is showing the American people he is going against the law.

Cap gives her this rejoiner : Cap says the fight of the Super Heroes for their rights against the Shill controlled government, is the same as the fight by General Washington to get their rights from the British.

Now that's an argument I missed throughout the CW debates, and, something I missed while reading CW 6 times. And this comes after Zemo's prediction that Cap was going to let himself be caught in the end so he can prove his cause is just - TB105.

So what was the war of Independance of the USA? Why was it similar to what the super humans war was with the government? I'm thinking that the original renegades during the British occupation, wanted to control their own destinies, and to do this, they had to control the budget and policy, not have it dictated to them from afar. If we extrapolate that to the super humans, what they are after is the same kind of independance to operate without the interference of an authority too far removed from their condition, as augmented beings. Normal humans can't know what super humans problems are. The British couldn't know what the American settlers problems were.

[Gcplayer]

This issue happened to be the first issue of Captain America I had ever bought. Civil War hands down brought me into comics at full force.

But in reply to your comment, I don't think that was Brubaker's intention. It was basically a filler issue to make room for the death of Captain America.

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

I wish that was illustrated in Civil War as well. You really don't get a lot of Cap's side, and I think it's because they needed to justify the apparent "villification" of Iron Man. The underdogs are always seen as "the good guys" and the bourgeois as the bad guys. From a construction standpoint, it makes sense why Millar needed to justify (and villify) Tony's actions. At the same time, I wish there was a more compelling argument to Cap's side shown within the pages of Civil War.

The one thing I never get is why everyone thinks Tony is some kind of Dr. Doom-esque bad guy throughout Civil War, when Cap started it by not agreeing to peaceful debate over the topic. Cap started all the fighting, When you realize that your only option is violence, shit gets out of hand. It wasn't directly Tony's fault; Steve wouldn't listen to reason. And we really didn't get why within the pages of Civil War proper.

[Hrist]

So what was the war of Independance of the USA? Why was it similar to what the super humans war was with the government? I'm thinking that the original renegades during the British occupation, wanted to control their own destinies, and to do this, they had to control the budget and policy, not have it dictated to them from afar. If we extrapolate that to the super humans, what they are after is the same kind of independance to operate without the interference of an authority too far removed from their condition, as augmented beings. Normal humans can't know what super humans problems are. The British couldn't know what the American settlers problems were.

Boiling it down to the classic textbook points, no. One of the primary grievances of British colonists was "no taxation without representation." But Steve and the other heroes are still private citizens, and have a say in the government the same as any other private citizen. If Steve wanted to be a legislator, he could run for office.

This is sort of the argument Washington himself went with when he put down the Whiskey Rebellion during his presidency.

[Augusto]

The one thing I never get is why everyone thinks Tony is some kind of Dr. Doom-esque bad guy throughout Civil War, when Cap started it by not agreeing to peaceful debate over the topic. Cap started all the fighting, When you realize that your only option is violence, shit gets out of hand. It wasn't directly Tony's fault; Steve wouldn't listen to reason. And we really didn't get why within the pages of Civil War proper.
Maria Hill and his men were pointing guns over Cap. That's not a peaceful debate.

[TonyStark1012]

Maria Hill and his men were pointing guns over Cap. That's not a peaceful debate.

When Tony and Cap did get together to talk and Tony tried to get Cap to see reason. Tony tried shaking Cap's hand and Cap put an electronic scrambler in it.

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

Maria Hill and his men were pointing guns over Cap. That's not a peaceful debate.

You are absolutely right, I wondered why they did that. It was such a weird place to drop the dime. The law wasn't passed then, it just seemed like Hill was being a raging c-word for no reason. I just didn't think that it was a good reason for him to fight against Iron Man. SHIELD maybe, but not Iron Man without talking first.

[jackolover]

Boiling it down to the classic textbook points, no. One of the primary grievances of British colonists was "no taxation without representation." But Steve and the other heroes are still private citizens, and have a say in the government the same as any other private citizen. If Steve wanted to be a legislator, he could run for office.

This is sort of the argument Washington himself went with when he put down the Whiskey Rebellion during his presidency.

You could say that the super humans are like the British colonists though. The SH's condition is they have no control over their destinies because they are isolated by their condition (of meta's) and don't get representation. They will never get representation until they, either have a truce with the American Government, or, have duly elected super heroes in the cabinet. Otherwise, the SH's are just like the colonists being dictated too without recourse, to their condition. Captain America saw that the SH's had too many problems with letting their secret Identities out to Tony Stark and giving up their rights to act freely, so they are put into SHIELD as a super human army and ordered to go where they are told.

[jackolover]

You are absolutely right, I wondered why they did that. It was such a weird place to drop the dime. The law wasn't passed then, it just seemed like Hill was being a raging c-word for no reason. I just didn't think that it was a good reason for him to fight against Iron Man. SHIELD maybe, but not Iron Man without talking first.

Tony Stark told Peter Parker to specifically not tell Steve Rogers about the proposed SHRA in ASM road to CW. When nobody tells Rogers what is coming, and where they stand, and all Rogers can do is get second hand information, when friends like Spider-Man and Iron Man haven't had the decency to bring him up the speed, what is Steve Rogers supposed to do, when his first introduction to the SHRA is Maria Hill giving him an ultimatum? He concludes that the SHRA is another form of slavery, and his friends are happy to go along with it.

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

Tony Stark told Peter Parker to specifically not tell Steve Rogers about the proposed SHRA in ASM road to CW. When nobody tells Rogers what is coming, and where they stand, and all Rogers can do is get second hand information, when friends like Spider-Man and Iron Man haven't had the decency to bring him up the speed, what is Steve Rogers supposed to do, when his first introduction to the SHRA is Maria Hill giving him an ultimatum? He concludes that the SHRA is another form of slavery, and his friends are happy to go along with it.

I didn't read ASM: Civil War. I didn't know that. But still, Hill was out of line, big time. I know it was supposed to be that way to set up Cap as a freedom fighting hero, but I still couldn't find much sympathy for him throughout this story. I'm glad they "miswrote" Tony to be more of a villain, because if you read Civil War by itself, without those dick moves Cap is totally in the wrong.

[Augusto]

When Tony and Cap did get together to talk and Tony tried to get Cap to see reason. Tony tried shaking Cap's hand and Cap put an electronic scrambler in it.
First they want to make you hunt your friends, then pointing guns at you, then you have to jump out from a hellicarrier, then trying to ambush you several times, how spider-man was manipulated, and then you know 'what tony wants, tony gets', and who they are hiring to hunt heroes. You become suspicious of anything.

Maybe the talk sould have been at the beggining. Maria Hill talking was a big mistake.

[Hamdinger]

Hill was not just giving Cap an Ultimatum. She was attempting to arrest Cap for violating a law that HAD NOT GONE INTO EFFECT YET! That is a massive violation of everything, civil rights, Bill of Rights, the Constitution, the laws of the USA etc. That gets overlooked by the Pro Registration cheerleaders.

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

Hill was not just giving Cap an Ultimatum. She was attempting to arrest Cap for violating a law that HAD NOT GONE INTO EFFECT YET! That is a massive violation of everything, civil rights, Bill of Rights, the Constitution, the laws of the USA etc. That gets overlooked by the Pro Registration cheerleaders.

It does, but was Tony/Reed/Pym in on that? I thought SHIELD was separate from the Pro-Reg guys?

[TonyStark1012]

First they want to make you hunt your friends, then pointing guns at you, then you have to jump out from a hellicarrier, then trying to ambush you several times, how spider-man was manipulated, and then you know 'what tony wants, tony gets', and who they are hiring to hunt heroes. You become suspicious of anything.

Maybe the talk sould have been at the beggining. Maria Hill talking was a big mistake.

Tony even tried talking to him at Black Panther wedding and all Steve wanted to do was leave. He just wouldn't listen to reason. Tony tried talking to him many times.Also about spidey being manipulated is just bs. Tony said that peter wouldn't be able to be on his side unless the goverment knew who he was. Then Tony gave him time to think about it. Aunt May and MJ convinced him to come out with his identity. Not Tony.

[Augusto]

Tony even tried talking to him at Black Panther wedding and all Steve wanted to do was leave. He just wouldn't listen to reason. Tony tried talking to him many times.Also about spidey being manipulated is just bs. Tony said that peter wouldn't be able to be on his side unless the goverment knew who he was. Then Tony gave him time to think about it. Aunt May and MJ convinced him to come out with his identity. Not Tony.
Tony had already made his point and the blows were given. Even if you take Spider-Man out of the picture, the other thinngs already happened before the wedding. Tony is manipulative. He make sure to get a profit out of this. If he wouldn't have been so self involved about the whole thing and "I have to do this on my own", and not have sent that "sweet woman" Maria Hill to do the talking...and you are willing to send your "friends" to the Negative zone, ¿how can I trust whatever you say?

I'm serious, if you push me out of a Hellicarrier, just that, I will never trust you again, but that's me...

[jackolover]

I didn't read ASM: Civil War. I didn't know that. But still, Hill was out of line, big time. I know it was supposed to be that way to set up Cap as a freedom fighting hero, but I still couldn't find much sympathy for him throughout this story. I'm glad they "miswrote" Tony to be more of a villain, because if you read Civil War by itself, without those dick moves Cap is totally in the wrong.

Yeah, it's hard to justify Caps stance in a society where you have recourse to the congress. I suppose Cap was worried about the damage that would be done until his congressman could get things done in politics. I wanted a better reason why Cap resisted the SHRA than what we were given in the main book, and that comment by Steve in this book about the renegades of the American Independence, sort of made it a stronger argument, so plaudits to Brubaker for that connection.


It does, but was Tony/Reed/Pym in on that? I thought SHIELD was separate from the Pro-Reg guys?

The way the system was explained, all the heroes were going to be working for SHIELD, so I can't see any separation between Tony/Reed/Pym and SHIELD.

[jackolover]

Hill was not just giving Cap an Ultimatum. She was attempting to arrest Cap for violating a law that HAD NOT GONE INTO EFFECT YET! That is a massive violation of everything, civil rights, Bill of Rights, the Constitution, the laws of the USA etc. That gets overlooked by the Pro Registration cheerleaders.

Maria Hill tried to justify her action to Sharon Carter, when Sharon told Maria Cap wasn't going to go for the SHRA. Hill said that she wanted to shortcut Rogers from running, and forming a Renegade Avengers, but she failed even to do that. Sharon had already telegraphed that Cap was going to be the enemy, and Maria Hill went in with Cape Killers . Maria Hill wasn't making any offer. She was putting Steve Rogers down.

[TonyStark1012]

Tony had already made his point and the blows were given. Even if you take Spider-Man out of the picture, the other thinngs already happened before the wedding. Tony is manipulative. He make sure to get a profit out of this. If he wouldn't have been so self involved about the whole thing and "I have to do this on my own", and not have sent that "sweet woman" Maria Hill to do the talking...and you are willing to send your "friends" to the Negative zone, ¿how can I trust whatever you say?

I'm serious, if you push me out of a Hellicarrier, just that, I will never trust you again, but that's me...

Ah He didn't send Hill to do any talking. So you're wrong on that one. Also they negative zone was the best place to put them .Reed made it. They weren't getting torchered and if they put them in the raft you'd say they were being put in there with bad guys and could get killed and if they put them in a regular prison they could break out easily. Also Hill pushed him out of the hellcarrier not Tony.

[jackolover]

Tony even tried talking to him at Black Panther wedding and all Steve wanted to do was leave. He just wouldn't listen to reason. Tony tried talking to him many times.Also about spidey being manipulated is just bs. Tony said that peter wouldn't be able to be on his side unless the goverment knew who he was. Then Tony gave him time to think about it. Aunt May and MJ convinced him to come out with his identity. Not Tony.

I think by the time of the Panther wedding, the lines had been set, because Rogers had heard so much already about the 42, and Cape Killers already. From this moment on, Rogers was never going to have that talk. Tony would have had to postponed any work on 42, Capekillers and the the criminal TBolts for Steve to trust him. Rogers couldn't trust anybody that had already implemented harsh restrictive measures already.

As for pathetic Peter, he had a father fixation on Stark as well having to protect his family with a secure apartment, and Stark supplied that. I think that's what is meant by manipulation.

[TonyStark1012]

I think by the time of the Panther wedding, the lines had been set, because Rogers had heard so much already about the 42, and Cape Killers already. From this moment on, Rogers was never going to have that talk. Tony would have had to postponed any work on 42, Capekillers and the the criminal TBolts for Steve to trust him. Rogers couldn't trust anybody that had already implemented harsh restrictive measures already.

Tony tried talking to Cap on multiple occasions. Cap just didn't want to talk.

[Augusto]

It's not about where they were sent. It's about what you are willing to do to your friends. Maria Hill was enforcing something Tony was pushing. Easily you can assume they working together. And they were.

[TonyStark1012]

[QUOTE=jackolover;12517363As for pathetic Peter, he had a father fixation on Stark as well having to protect his family with a secure apartment, and Stark supplied that. I think that's what is meant by manipulation.[/QUOTE]

Ah, No. Tony took Peter and his family in and took care of them like they were his. Read Amazing spiderman during Civil War. Aunt May and MJ talked him onto revealing his indentity. When Peter choose to leave Aunt May gets shot and then Peter comes runinng to Tony for money to help out. Tony told Peter to go home and think about the choice. He didn't force him to do anything. Again May and MJ did.

[TonyStark1012]

It's not about where they were sent. It's about what you are willing to do to your friends. Maria Hill was enforcing something Tony was pushing. Easily you can assume they working together. And they were.

Tony didn't send her to talk to Cap. She did that on her own before the law was passed. Unless you can tell me the comic where Tony say's to go talk to Cap? So basically you're just assuming with no proof. Maria even told Sharon that SHE wanted to go after Cap and cut him off before he can make an anti-reg group. Not Tony.

[Will.S]

You are absolutely right, I wondered why they did that. It was such a weird place to drop the dime. The law wasn't passed then, it just seemed like Hill was being a raging c-word for no reason. I just didn't think that it was a good reason for him to fight against Iron Man. SHIELD maybe, but not Iron Man without talking first.
It didn't really make sense for Maria to attack Cap since Cap was perfectly well within his rights to defend himself. Unless she held some personal grudge against Captain America (which she may have had since Breakout), its an extreme reaction. I think if Maria was a skrull it would have made a lot more sense since they had more stake in pitting the superhero community against each other.

But without Maria Hill forcing Cap into action it probably would have played out a lot differently, perhaps with Steve and Tony on CNN's crossfire or something.

:tongue:

[Augusto]

Tony didn't send her to talk to Cap. She did that on her own before the law was passed. Unless you can tell me the comic where Tony say's to go talk to Cap? So basically you're just assuming with no proof.
No, but Maria follows a line of command. She was getting her orders. Obviously, not to throw Cap out of the hellicarrier. But, when you sum up all the facts, you got: tony putting more effort in keeping safe his company than to get to an understanding with the rest of the heroes. Tony's mistake was to think everyone would will automatically agree with him.
He was trying to convince, not to negotiate and reach and agreement. Again, they were his friends, but Tony was like: "it's my way or the bad way". To impose his will by any necessary means.

[TonyStark1012]

No, but Maria follows a line of command. She was getting her orders. Obviously, not to throw Cap out of the hellicarrier. But, when you sum up all the facts, you got: tony putting more effort in keeping safe his company than to get to an understanding with the rest of the heroes. Tony's mistake was to think everyone would will automatically agree with him.
He was trying to convince, not to negotiate and reach and agreement. Again, they were his friends, but Tony was like: "it's my way or the bad way". To impose his will by any necessary means.

Again you're wrong. Tony knew people wouldn't agree with him. He even said the SHRA would split the heroes down the middle. He knew not everyone would listen to him. He was worried about saving lives. Did the goverment give him contracts after he took the lead for the SHRA. Yes. He's a business man and has people that put their lively hood in his hands, but that is not the reason he decided to lead the Pro-regs.

[akumasan]

I wish that was illustrated in Civil War as well. You really don't get a lot of Cap's side, and I think it's because they needed to justify the apparent "villification" of Iron Man. The underdogs are always seen as "the good guys" and the bourgeois as the bad guys. From a construction standpoint, it makes sense why Millar needed to justify (and villify) Tony's actions. At the same time, I wish there was a more compelling argument to Cap's side shown within the pages of Civil War.

The one thing I never get is why everyone thinks Tony is some kind of Dr. Doom-esque bad guy throughout Civil War, when Cap started it by not agreeing to peaceful debate over the topic. Cap started all the fighting, When you realize that your only option is violence, shit gets out of hand. It wasn't directly Tony's fault; Steve wouldn't listen to reason. And we really didn't get why within the pages of Civil War proper.
Well the problem is the "pro-registration" side were written like dicks. Almost all of them were. And the anti-registration were too preachy with the "facists" comments. There were no positive character portrayals among the pro and no negative character portrayals among the anti.

Ah, No. Tony took Peter and his family in and took care of them like they were his. Read Amazing spiderman during Civil War. Aunt May and MJ talked him onto revealing his indentity. When Peter choose to leave Aunt May gets shot and then Peter comes runinng to Tony for money to help out. Tony told Peter to go home and think about the choice. He didn't force him to do anything. Again May and MJ did.
Exactly too many fail to realize that it wasn't tony whom "manipulated" him. His family convinced him on this decision. Then of course peter being the selfish crybaby he is have the nerve to blame Tony for the "death of aunt may".


BTW why are some convinced that Tony were giving orders to Maria. I thought he wasn't director of shield until after civil war

[Hrist]

All Rogers can do is get second hand information, when friends like Spider-Man and Iron Man haven't had the decency to bring him up the speed, what is Steve Rogers supposed to do, when his first introduction to the SHRA is Maria Hill giving him an ultimatum? He concludes that the SHRA is another form of slavery, and his friends are happy to go along with it.

One government official acting out of line isn't cause for a revolution, though. It's a "history of repeated injuries and usurpations." Surely Captain America doesn't believe that the American system of government doesn't apply to him? I see the parallel between the colonists and Steve's cause— whenever someone resists the government, people like to invoke the Revolutionary War, it's an enduring and particularly American symbol of struggle against (real or imagined) tyranny.

But I also see why it didn't go much further than a few lines here and there. Steve wasn't trying to install a new government, he just wanted a law changed or repealed.

[jackolover]

Ah, No. Tony took Peter and his family in and took care of them like they were his. Read Amazing spiderman during Civil War. Aunt May and MJ talked him onto revealing his indentity. When Peter choose to leave Aunt May gets shot and then Peter comes runinng to Tony for money to help out. Tony told Peter to go home and think about the choice. He didn't force him to do anything. Again May and MJ did.


We're definately reading that two different ways. You see it as MJ and Aunt May. I see it as pressure to bear from Stark. It looks like a little bit of both. I'd also factor in Stark made the Iron Sider suit for Peter, he supplied the appartment for his family, and made him second in command. Those sorts of incentives are a huge temptations to someone of Peters minimal means.

[jackolover]

One government official acting out of line isn't cause for a revolution, though. It's a "history of repeated injuries and usurpations." Surely Captain America doesn't believe that the American system of government doesn't apply to him? I see the parallel between the colonists and Steve's cause— whenever someone resists the government, people like to invoke the Revolutionary War, it's an enduring and particularly American symbol of struggle against (real or imagined) tyranny.

But I also see why it didn't go much further than a few lines here and there. Steve wasn't trying to install a new government, he just wanted a law changed or repealed.

That's true about Steve just wanting to repeal a law.

As for Steve believing "the American system of government doesn't apply to him", I think that got a huge push when he found himself smashing out of a Helicarrier with American forces willing to shut him down by force. What else is he expected to conclude? He could have gone another way if the SHRA wasn't being rushed through and Rogers wasn't headhunted as a potential Renegade, to be shut down before the fighting even begins. As it was, Steve got the chance to escape and he took it. In NA #21, Steve was sitting quietly in his studio drawing, trying to collect his thoughts, and still the Cape Killers came to put him down a second time. If they had left him alone, who knows what Steve would have tried to do?

[TonyStark1012]

We're definately reading that two different ways. You see it as MJ and Aunt May. I see it as pressure to bear from Stark. It looks like a little bit of both. I'd also factor in Stark made the Iron Sider suit for Peter, he supplied the appartment for his family, and made him second in command. Those sorts of incentives are a huge temptations to someone of Peters minimal means.

I can see where you coming from but in the end it was May and MJ that talked Peter into doing it.

[jackolover]

I can see where you coming from but in the end it was May and MJ that talked Peter into doing it.

There was that really false speech Peter made when he did handshake Stark, at last, saying, "A deal is a deal because I always keep my word".

[Pixie_Solanas]

Sharon Carter was rocking the retro 60's hair and some insanely cool high heel boots.

I loved it.

Then, we had Sin in Der Fuhrer's leisure suit. WTF?