Where do Thor: TMA and the JMS and Gillen runs fall short of Simonson's Thor?

[[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite]

Previously, I made a thread (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=353513) asking what the best ever run on Thor was. Many seem to agree that it was Simonson's run, even beating out JMS and Gillen, and even Lee/Kirby.

Thor: The Mighty Avenger and the JMS and Gillen runs are considered the best work done on Thor in the last 10 years, but according to most, they still don't stack up to Simonson's work with the character.

In your opinion, what are each of these three missing that prevents them from being on the level of or surpassing Simonson's run?

[whitedevilxiii]

I wasn't particularly thrilled with Gillen's run and a big part of Stracynskis was that he didn't stay to finish it

[Frodo-X]

Well, first of all, I really can't comment in depth on The Mighty Avenger, as I've not read it. Otherwise, I think it's a couple things. First and foremost: length and consistancy. Simonson's run is over 40 issues long and consistantly good throughout. Stack that against JMS's 13 issues which really don't have an ending since he left abruptly, or Gillen's 11 issues, 3 of which were dedicated to wrapping up JMS's stuff and 4 of which were an event tie-in, and they both seem small. Simonson's run had several story arcs in it, whereas JMS really only had one and Gillen had three. The third reason is hard to judge yet as the others are recent, but: The effect that Simonson's run left. Beta Ray Bill, a character created at the start of his run, has lasted for a long time since. Skurge the Executioner has remained dead because his death was done so well that nobody wants to undo it. Many who have written Thor since have looked to Simonson's version for direction. Now, it may be that in twenty years we'll still be seeing Kelda, or that Bill will come back and be a popular character himself, but for now I'm skeptical that anything will be held onto from these runs. Loki's already back to male. Asgard is likely leaving Earth after the current "World Eaters" arc ends and Broxton will probably be forgotten after that. Gillen didn't really do anything that would be lasting intentionally, since he was only ever meant to be a temporary placeholder until Fraction was ready.

[Rage.Of.Olympus]

Every single pro that made those runs stand out was present in Simonson's work -usually handled with greater skill- and more. It was just better. You rarely read anything so good. That's about the simplest answer I can give you.

Thor: The Mighty Avenger really was great characterization wise though. Rarely do you see a character legitimately grow throughout a run.

[drownedbyimmolation]

Sentimentalism.

lol, no, probably more along the lines of consistency, and length. Seriously, let a good writer build up a head of steam with their work, and they can do great things. Let a great writer build up a head of steam, and so on.

I think if Gillen or JMS had stayed on, and if their stories, stayed as good, or improved, and there were lots of them, then a few years from now, they'd draw equal or near equal footing as the great, extraordinary work of Walt Simonson's.

Thor The Mighty Avenger was great, for it to be considered of fondly by the masses, you'd have to change the masses. This book was too fun, and independent. It didn't "matter" enough. You'd have to add 616 to the cover, but then, it would clash with continuity, and well shucks, you'd be better of cloning the people who did enjoy it, and getting them to post to make up numbers with that book.

[Rage.Of.Olympus]

Walt Simonson's very first issue was amazing. His run started off great from the get go.

That's the difference between a good writer, and an excellent writer. The very first issue should be amazing. We shouldn't wait to be halfway through the arc before we start getting really impressed.

Don't get me wrong though, Gillen's run was fun and really good. JMS' run was less fun but still really good.

[FanboyStranger]

What Simonson's run had that set it above the others was Simonson. His design sense is unparallelled in American comics, his storytelling is very sophisticated yet crackles with life and energry that rivals Kirby's, and he injected a sense of Norse mythology into a book that generally took it as starting point and ran off in more sci-fi directions. Even when Walt stopped as artist, he had Sal Buscema working off his thumbnails, which resulted in probably the finest work of Buscema's career. Thor had never been as consistantly epic as when Walt was on the book, and it certainly hasn't been as consistantly epic since then.

No fault to Chris Samnee, who is a good artist, but he's just not Walt. Same as the artists who worked with Gillan.

[drownedbyimmolation]

Walt Simonson's very first issue was amazing. His run started off great from the get go.

That's the difference between a good writer, and an excellent writer. The very first issue should be amazing. We shouldn't wait to be halfway through the arc before we start getting really impressed.

Don't get me wrong though, Gillen's run was fun and really good. JMS' run was less fun but still really good.



Except sometimes that distinction isn't as up to the writer as one might like. (writer or reader) Take Gillen's case for example, I wasn't around for Walt's first issue, did he have to clean up the end of another writers the same way Gillen had to?

These days how arcs are formed are framed by the fact of the TPB as well, there are lots of differences. Ideally it would be nice to think a writer can bring you their best with issue one, and its not impossible for them to do that these days, generally. Comparisons and looking at specifics though? I personally just think its an oversimplification to draw the line between a good writer and an excellent writer, on how they perform on their "first" issue.

[Bodhi M.]

It really is hard to say exactly what it is that makes Simonson's Thor so great. I mean the obvious answers are, great art and great storylines. But it really goes so far beyond just those things. Simonson had a grasp of not only Thor, but every single character in the Thor comics. It was perfect in every sense of the word. I mean, he even made turning Thor into a Frog with a hammer, unbelievably engaging!

[Desaad]

Simonson Thor was really better than all of the others mentioned, in every way.

JMS's Thor was great for it's slow, Shakespearean burn, the concepts it explored and the grandiosity with which it explored them. But Simonson's Thor was set against the DOOM DOOM DOOM of galaxies exploding and mythological monsters rising, was as personal and touching as the tale of the last viking and Skurge's last stand.

Thor: The Mighty Avenger is perhaps most notable for its romance, and for the way that it's title character grew and changed. But no character so more growth and change in "The Mighty Avenger" than did Balduur in Simonson's Thor, and no love story was more true than that of Sif and Beta Ray Bill.

Gillen's Thor was...well, I didn't care for it at all, so I don't know what about it people would describe as quality. Perhaps the machiavellian portrayal of Loki, the plotting and the scheming? Sorry, but Loki has never been as complex and intelligent and down right MISCHIEVOUS as he was under Simonson, whether picking up his severed head, a wry grin on his face, as a good joke finally came together or he was shouting "For Myself" against the endless hordes of muspelheim.

Everything everyone else did right, Simonson did first, and Simonson did...righter. Writer? :) And much more besides, in regards to expanding a mythology.

[earl]

JMS story was good but so ever so SLOW, it would have taken 60 issues to get anywhere close to being done. To me it was really still at the introduction phase of the storyline and it was 16 issues in and considering the delays in getting it out, it was never going to be completed. While lovely to look at and sometimes with some nice character scenes, I think JMS got obsessed with the family drama part of Thor and kind of put secondary that it is about a guy with a big hammer that goes out and busts things up.

I'll give Kieron Gillen credit for being given some lemons and making lemonade, but c'mon the guy wrote 10 issues basically because two writers didn't want to clean up the mess. He made a decent comic out of a bad situation, but you cannot even compare what the guy did in those 10 issues to what Simonson did. Then again, Gillen had a different task at hand. Still, it isn't easy to be given some kind of editorial mandate directive and then putting out a story that the zombies actually like, so for that, if I was Marvel I'd give the guy another writing assignment (which it appears they have done).

Walt Simonson pulled off a story where he turned Thor into a FROG and it worked! He did the at the time somewhat unthinkable and had someone as worthy as Thor pick up the hammer and it worked (something which kind of got cheapened later on) with the Beta Ray Bill storyline. The guy with John Workman's killer lettering work had some of the most epic fight scenes in the history of the title. Simonson's run is one of the bed rocks of the character now, you can't do a Marvel Thor comic without relating it back to that run.

[Hulk_Is]

To me it was just the time period and longevity in which Simonson had the book to a degree. Thor: TMA is great, but gets gets lost in today's world where books aren't mostly that anymore. And, I felt like Gillen couldv'e been close on Simonson's heels at least, but obviously Matt Fraction had to come aboard. I so wish Gillen could have continued on uninterrupted. :sob:

[42n8s1]

Two things:

Stormbreaker and Skuttlebutt.

'nuff said.

[diablo7]

What Simonson's run had that set it above the others was Simonson. His design sense is unparallelled in American comics, his storytelling is very sophisticated yet crackles with life and energry that rivals Kirby's, and he injected a sense of Norse mythology into a book that generally took it as starting point and ran off in more sci-fi directions. Even when Walt stopped as artist, he had Sal Buscema working off his thumbnails, which resulted in probably the finest work of Buscema's career. Thor had never been as consistantly epic as when Walt was on the book, and it certainly hasn't been as consistantly epic since then.

No fault to Chris Samnee, who is a good artist, but he's just not Walt. Same as the artists who worked with Gillan.

There's very few that can stand toe to toe with simonson. I wish he had more time on orion or new gods since he fit those books so well.

[diablo7]

Walt Simonson's very first issue was amazing. His run started off great from the get go.

That's the difference between a good writer, and an excellent writer. The very first issue should be amazing. We shouldn't wait to be halfway through the arc before we start getting really impressed.

Don't get me wrong though, Gillen's run was fun and really good. JMS' run was less fun but still really good.

I agree. I think every first issue should be amazing and every issue after should be equal or build to be better than that first issue.

[Hamdinger]

JMS run started out good than ground to a halt and then we got the bob and Kelda show, or whatever the redneck dweeb's name was. Then a bit with Loki's childhood and that was as notable as it got until the Thor vs Bor fight and that's all that happened. And there was alot of stupid things in that run too. The best Idea of having asgard on earth had been don before as well so whopdee do JMS.

Gillen's run was ok but he was just cleaning up the mess left by JMS and not allowed to do anything really since Fraction would be taking over. He atleast had stuff happen and had more action and picked up the pace from the JMS run. I think that's why his run was well liked.

The Thor the Mighty Avenger was nice but just stood out for the art and and was fun but doesn't rate as an all time great thing for me.

Simonson's run was just epic in scope in every way.

Thor meeting his equal in Beta Ray Bill, Baldur's journey of reconciling all the bloodshed in his thousands of years of life and his romance with Karnilla and being torn with his duty to Asgard, Sif re-evaluating her life, Thor's quest into Hela's realm and being taken to his limits in every way conceivable and rising from defeat and fighting against overwhelming odds, and The epic death of Skurge the Executioner.

Then there was the threat of Satur, the death and sacrifice of Odin, Loki bringing about Ragnarok finally and Thor's epic fight with the Midgard Serpent and then the destroyer armor using his wits as well as all of his fighting skills and so much more! It was epic and the other runs just don't compare.

[Finganforn]

JMS's run lacked respect for continuity. The 'shiny asgard' looks like camelot, has no sewer and people think its okay to throw shit over the walls. Where is my society that have existed for more years than humanity walks the Earth that had magi-tech eons ahead of earth? Screw that, why Thor was 'dead' if he was the only guy to survive (he wen to sleep in the end of v2, and didn't have eyes). He just came in with a premise and wrote whatever. Take alway all the hype, ignore JMS's 'star writer' rep and think 'Joe the Average' wrote it, remove Copiel's art, and see how well received it would be... not. Wasn't bad, but it is fairly overrated, many times. Simonson changes were much more natural, his retcons made sense and tied into stuff for all I remember, at best you had him just not touching an aspect or other instead of totally making wtf affirmations (like the sewer thing). Jurgen's Asgard on Earth and Odinpowered Thor were handled much better, and that is coming from someone who is the first to point that whole plot went for too many issues and I got really bored of it at times. Well, that and Thor appearances since the title was Kelda & Bill, co-starring that other thunder god. I did like Kelda & Bill and the other secondary plots, but they really took too much panel time compared to the lead character.


Gillen and TMA were short in length, imo, its hard to compare, they had less time to develop. Gillen did shine with the shit he was given, but then he was taken out. TMA was a great fun read, but it also was cancelled too soon to be able to reach the same level of greatness Sim's had, stuff was still being flashed out. For as long as it lasted, though, it was incredible. Props for Thor not being treated like a dumb person permanently Hulk mode "Thor Hammer-Smack!" (he is quite smart there), he is just from a different culture and is not used to Earth's stuff. In this sense I would say TMA had a greatness in showing more of Thor's character, not just his brawls.

[[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite]

JMS run started out good than ground to a halt and then we got the bob and Kelda show, or whatever the redneck dweeb's name was. Then a bit with Loki's childhood and that was as notable as it got until the Thor vs Bor fight and that's all that happened. And there was alot of stupid things in that run too. The best Idea of having asgard on earth had been don before as well so whopdee do JMS.

Gillen's run was ok but he was just cleaning up the mess left by JMS and not allowed to do anything really since Fraction would be taking over. He atleast had stuff happen and had more action and picked up the pace from the JMS run. I think that's why his run was well liked.

The Thor the Mighty Avenger was nice but just stood out for the art and and was fun but doesn't rate as an all time great thing for me.

Simonson's run was just epic in scope in every way.

Thor meeting his equal in Beta Ray Bill, Baldur's journey of reconciling all the bloodshed in his thousands of years of life and his romance with Karnilla and being torn with his duty to Asgard, Sif re-evaluating her life, Thor's quest into Hela's realm and being taken to his limits in every way conceivable and rising from defeat and fighting against overwhelming odds, and The epic death of Skurge the Executioner.

Then there was the threat of Satur, the death and sacrifice of Odin, Loki bringing about Ragnarok finally and Thor's epic fight with the Midgard Serpent and then the destroyer armor using his wits as well as all of his fighting skills and so much more! It was epic and the other runs just don't compare.

I actually the Bill/Kelda storyline was pretty well-done.

[Fanatic reborn]

I just looked up Skuttlebutt on Urban Dictionary - I will never be the same :eek:

[42n8s1]

I just looked up Skuttlebutt on Urban Dictionary - I will never be the same :eek:

Hehehe. . .

[FanboyStranger]

There's very few that can stand toe to toe with simonson. I wish he had more time on orion or new gods since he fit those books so well.

Me, too, but I'd settle for some trades. I have all the issues, but it's lot easier to just pull a book of the shelf. I have the inital tpb, The Gates of Apokolips, but DC really blew it when they reprinted a few Byrne stories and the Simonson series' back-ups as Tales of the New Gods instead of putting out a further trade of Walt's series. (Although Tales of the New Gods does have Walt's Kanto story set in Renaissance Italy and a Steve Rude story.)

[Punchdrunk]

1. Longevity - is definitely in Walt's corner - the other folks didn't have the space to prove themselves the way Walt did. Just the Surtur saga alone Thor #337 (Nov. 1983)- #353 (Mar. 1985) was longer than JMS and Gillen's run together.

2. Consistency - Issue after issue Walt knocked it out of the park. On a run as long as his, to have so many memorable moments occur with such frequency is remarkable.
It seemed like every month another character made their best appearance of the series or a new character was introduced who would last to this day.

-Beta Ray Bill: who would imagine a horse faced Thor knockoff would still be around 25 years later and be a fan favorite?
- Fafnir more deadly than ever before/more grand and more imposing than his early JIM appearances
- Loki going from betrayer of Asgard to betrayer of Surtur. He was never more labyrinthian in his guile and yet Walt made him heroic too when the chips were down.
- Surtur - always a Thor cast player now he was the architect of a 616 spanning doom. An elemental in both power and mindset. He went from another brand of giant to an Epic force
- Balder as mentioned before he went from the depths of gluttoness depression to the height of cavalier valor, dragging Karnilla along to new relevance with him.
- Hela Finally she was as Machiavellian as her father. Her curse on Thor pushed him and her to new levels of resourcefulness
- Volstagg Under JMS the Voluminous one ahem expanded with his worries for his family (a great set of characters) revealing the true Lion's heart that others have built on since.

- SKURGE - one of the greatest exits in all of comics. "He held the bridge at Gjalebru - and that answer is enough." It makes the hairs on your neck stand up more than 20 years later.

THAT IS ONLY SCRATCHING THE SURFACE

Issue after issue Walt picked fruit from seeds he planted in the first few panels of his run without ever making us feel decompressed. We were swept along in an endless wave of character revealing action.

Even the Frog of Thunder was daring, integrated and lasting - Throgg is a star in his own comic this week!

When you seamlessly weave
-the Epic and the Whimsical
- Dynamic Action with Heartfelt Emotion
- the Myths of Ages with the Myths of the 616
- making it clear enough to require no preamble for newcomers but rewarding those that have read both the Eddas and Journey Into Mystery for their acumen
- FOR 50 ISSUES -
You have staked a claim on a title that is very hard to shake.

[Jay Dogg]

No love for Jurgen/Romita Jr.'s run? That was some of the best Thor I ever read. Not THE best, but the one I've read the most and grown to love.

[avenging son]

walt is awesome, but I still gotta give some props to the King, Kirby.

my favorite comics of all time are the early issues of Thor where he would battle Hercules.

Herc just looked bigger than life, and the action scenes were so much fun!

[Bodhi M.]

Another run that was very good was Roy Thomas and John Buscema. They were on the title a little while before Simonson, and they had some very good storylines, such as the retelling of "Ring of the Niebelung".

[FanboyStranger]

Another run that was very good was Roy Thomas and John Buscema. They were on the title a little while before Simonson, and they had some very good storylines, such as the retelling of "Ring of the Niebelung".

That was Roy and Keith Polllard, actually. Roy left at issue 297 before his run was completed, and editors Ralph Macchio and Mark Gruenwald finished the Niebelung and Celestials storylines from his outlines. Still a great storyline, though.

[Zero Hunter]

No love for Jurgen/Romita Jr.'s run? That was some of the best Thor I ever read. Not THE best, but the one I've read the most and grown to love.

I actully liked Jurgens run more after JRJR left. Everything from the Death of Odin to the Son of Thor arc was great to me. I think it definetly stands up to be in the top 5 Thor runs ever.

[Corey W]

I liked both the Jurgens and Thomas runs. I also like the JMS and Gillen runs. Thor has been lucky to have had so many great runs (Lee/Kirby too). But, the Simonson run is the run that defined the character. It is as strong, in its own way, as the Claremont/Byrne X-Men run, the Miller Daredevil run, the Lee/Kirby FF run and all of Marvel's other great runs. And, as many have mentioned, it is the run of Thor that must be reckoned with by all future writers.

Some of the highlights of the arc--the Surtur arc (Thor has never been more epic and the opening sequence was homaged in Louise Simonson's opening sequence in the Death of Superman); Beta Ray Bill; Beta Ray Bill/Sif/Thor love triangle; dropping Donald Blake; the death of Odin; the death of the Executioner; The Last Viking.

I have to admit that frog Thor never did it for me and I tend to skip over that plot when I reread the arc. But, given its length it is an incredible run.

[mdg1]

It's really quite simple. Simonson never let the plot dictate the way a character would act, but wrote his plots to fit the characters. Everyone had a moment to shine, even bit characters like Volstagg's kids, Eilif, or the dwarves.

I don't think there was an example of PIS in his entire run.

[Hamdinger]

It's really quite simple. Simonson never let the plot dictate the way a character would act, but wrote his plots to fit the characters. Everyone had a moment to shine, even bit characters like Volstagg's kids, Eilif, or the dwarves.

I don't think there was an example of PIS in his entire run.

Now that is another excellent point! Unfortunately most of the current writers in the industry let the plot dictate how the characters would act forcing alot of characters to act out of character or stupidly to be shoehorned into it.