Tokyo censorship bill projected to pass on Wednesday

[MKTerra]

Other forums have been abuzz about this over the weekend (particularly when it passed committee vote last night), so I thought I'd start a thread here. This is a rehash of a bill defeated last year, but this time it looks like it's gonna pass.

For a recap of events, read here (http://dankanemitsu.wordpress.com/2010/12/10/crunch-time-three-days-until-bill-156s-fate-is-determined/).

And the latest update:
Bill 156 Locked to Go – Prime Minister Expresses Concern as Final Vote comes on Wednesday (http://dankanemitsu.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/bill-156-locked-to-go-prime-minister-expresses-concern-as-final-vote-comes-on-wednesday/)

[Nik Hasta]

So the basic idea, if I understand this right, is that if a manga, anime or video game contains incest or paedophilia, rape-based or otherwise, then it gets labelled as adult-only?

Do I have that correct?

[Legato]

God bless America.

[OverMaster]

Nik: The problem is it goes beyond that, apparently. And it's pretty vague in its terms, meaning any media watchdog can take it the way they please. It goes far enough as to use 'etcs,' at the end of generic, nebulous listings of general abstract concepts like 'harmful to children and minors'.

[Ghost]

God bless America.

...In what way does this have anything to do with America?

[another_version]

...In what way does this have anything to do with America?

the fact that censorship to this degree couldn't happen here (hopefully) due to the constitution

[Kevin M.]

Other forums have been abuzz about this over the weekend (particularly when it passed committee vote last night), so I thought I'd start a thread here. This is a rehash of a bill defeated last year, but this time it looks like it's gonna pass.

For a recap of events, read here (http://dankanemitsu.wordpress.com/2010/12/10/crunch-time-three-days-until-bill-156s-fate-is-determined/).

And the latest update:
Bill 156 Locked to Go – Prime Minister Expresses Concern as Final Vote comes on Wednesday (http://dankanemitsu.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/bill-156-locked-to-go-prime-minister-expresses-concern-as-final-vote-comes-on-wednesday/)


I wonder how long before this bills starts getting abused like a step-child.

[Legato]

the fact that censorship to this degree couldn't happen here (hopefully) due to the constitution

That and we have more control with the ratings system

[Robotech Master]

So the basic idea, if I understand this right, is that if a manga, anime or video game contains incest or paedophilia, rape-based or otherwise, then it gets labelled as adult-only?

Do I have that correct?

Very subtle but important distinction. Japan already has rating labels. This law makes the sale of anything deemed such to minors *illegal*, and therefore punishable by law. It takes a system already in place and just tries to "big brother" it with extensions. Its similar to the Violent Video Game Laws some people have been trying to get passed right here in America.

Its also worded rather horribly with vague terms, which is never something I like to see in the hands of a big brother system. I'm just crossing my fingers that they don't dick around...

but the worrisome thing about it, for me, is that one of its major backers is a nationalist bigot who thinks that homosexual characters shouldn't be allowed in media because knowledge of their existence is supposedly harmful to Japan's youth.

[Hazard]

Well, there are so many ways in which this can go wrong.

[NaruHina12]

I wonder how long until this law is repealed. Seriously, even the Prime Minister is seeing this as a bad idea.

[Sound Silence]

So novels, films, TV, photographs, and any other medium involving text and real world people are free to do what they wish, but anime and manga and games will have to follow a different standard.

If this is the case, then I find this to be a major area of objection for me, because it makes it seem like they're creating a double standard to pick on anime/manga stuff.

Also, I'm not a fan of anything with vague descriptions like "obscene" and "harmful". Who knows what any of that means. Basically, when that's the case, it boils down to how much clout a person can generate, and Joe Mangaka isn't going to have any of that. The Oedipus Rex is a good example...I bet no one would object to, say, a play performance of Oedipus Rex (it's a classic, after all), but some guy wants to do the exact same (or similar) story in manga, with the exact same purpose and meaning, not for prurient purposes...he'd get slammed by this just because he's just a manga artist, I'm sure.


I mean, yes, I think obscene and harmful things should be kept where the average person won't be hurt by them.

With physical things, this is fairly easy. Keep toxic waste away from people, etc.

With non-physical things...not so much, and that's why these things are such a big problem. You need solid, concrete, non-vague definitions for what these terms mean regarding media.

Even then, there's no way to prove intent objectively, which is why freedom of speech/publication/expression/whatever should exist all across the board.

If you start banning this stuff for good reasons (i.e. a comic obviously made to cater to violent rape fetishists), you will start banning it for bad reasons (i.e. a comic focusing on a character who is violently raped as a means of dealing with the human themes and social ramifications and what-have-you involved in such a situation).

[FalconX2000]

If this is the case, then I find this to be a major area of objection for me, because it makes it seem like they're creating a double standard to pick on anime/manga stuff.

Also, I'm not a fan of anything with vague descriptions like "obscene" and "harmful". Who knows what any of that means. Basically, when that's the case, it boils down to how much clout a person can generate, and Joe Mangaka isn't going to have any of that. The Oedipus Rex is a good example...I bet no one would object to, say, a play performance of Oedipus Rex (it's a classic, after all), but some guy wants to do the exact same (or similar) story in manga, with the exact same purpose and meaning, not for prurient purposes...he'd get slammed by this just because he's just a manga artist, I'm sure.


I mean, yes, I think obscene and harmful things should be kept where the average person won't be hurt by them.

In general, I think obscenity is a word that should be excluded from any law. What people consider obscene is inherently and unavoidably subjective and is something for protocol and social dynamics to take care of, not something to arrest people over.

[OverMaster]

I wonder how long until this law is repealed. Seriously, even the Prime Minister is seeing this as a bad idea.

Yeah, but the Prime Minister's apparently got a popularity of around 20% now, while the bright brain behind the bill's on a popularity roll.

Countries do have the leaders they deserve, I guess.

[Darth Joker]

Something that I think should be cleared up here - we're not talking about an outright ban in the most common sense of the term (i.e. nobody is allowed to read it, see it, or watch it).

What we're really talking about here is an age rating system, albeit a very crude and overly simplistic one (which is the heart of the problem).

Nothing wrong with an age rating system, in and of itself (ideally loosely enforced, though, as its main value is to help parents make at least somewhat informed decisions on what to let their kids watch).

Let's be honest here - there are some anime shows that 10 year olds probably shouldn't be watching, and an age rating system that reflects that is fine.

But to treat a 17 year old the way you would a 10 year old is the problem here. This bill could conceivably clump everything the least bit controversial or of mature content into the "18 or above" category, and that's just incredibly excessive. It's basically saying that people in their mid-to-late teens can't handle shows like Bleach, Death Note, or The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (all of these have content that could easily be argued to fall afoul of the bill's wording), which is frankly farcical.

The anime equivalent of something like the old "R, PG-13, PG, and G" age rating system would be fine, with only the very most adult of the adult shows getting R, and the bulk falling under PG-13 or PG. Bleach, Death Note, and the like would all fall under PG-13 or PG. But that's not what is going on here, unfortunately.


Economically speaking, the main danger of this bill is that it could absolutely kill some of the big shounen titles. If Bleach, Naruto, and One Piece are forced to classify under "R-18", then they're effectively cutting themselves off (legally) from their very own target audience, which would be such unbelievable madness. Yes, many adults watch these shows, but make no mistake, their core demographic is male teenagers. It would be commercial suicide for the shounen big three to restrict their access to adults only.


Honestly, this bill is like some machiavellian attempt to destroy anime and manga. It's such an absolutely mind-blowing bill on the part of Tokyo's government in that it could destroy something that is a big part of it's economy! Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face...

In effect, it could easily obliterate the "middle ground" of anime and manga. By that, I mean, shows aimed at the anime/manga equivalent of a PG-13 market (which is where most of the anime market is at; perhaps manga as well, but I'm not certain of that) are the ones that will be hit the hardest by this. Because this bill (if strictly enforced, and with its wording broadly applied) would basically break everything down into just R and G - no middle ground or gradient whatsoever.

What's being threatened here is not the most adult of anime or manga material. That will be largely unaffected - the bread and butter of such material is sales to adults, and they (we) can still legally buy it even if this bill is passed.

It's the slightly edgy stuff aimed at teens first, and adults second, that is really threatened by this bill. It's the backbone of the anime and manga industry, not just some fringe ecchi/hentai title somewhere.


Even if you're not a passionate anti-censorship advocate, this bill should definitely concern you if you're an anime or manga fan.

[NaruHina12]

From what I understand, the Big Three and current Shonen Titles are exempt from the Ordinance Ban due to it coming into effect July 1st. Everything afterwards has to use this new rating system though.

[Darth Joker]

From what I understand, the Big Three and current Shonen Titles are exempt from the Ordinance Ban due to it coming into effect July 1st. Everything afterwards has to use this new rating system though.

... Does that mean that the Big Three are set to end before July 1st? Or is this a case where they're grandfathered in?

[NaruHina12]

No, I mean they can continue without the ban penalties-like everything is still the same after July first since they came out before it. The new system was made for new Shonen Titles, but current and old ones are exempt from it.

So we'll be able to have Naruto, One Piece, and Bleach for a long while without any problems until they end. :biggrin:

Everyone on other sites are concerned about Seinen Titles...which aren't affected by the Bill. Everyone's screaming 'Berserk! Is it going to be canned'? Its getting annoying since its not affected at all by the bill, same with the current Shonen Titles.

[Libaax]

God bless America.

Rating system is the fault in Japan ?


God bless a country that doesnt have health care for everybody like most non 3rd world country....

I dont want to bash US but its a bit arrogant to think US is so great when you lack common systems that by law take care of the people of a country for free.

[Darth Joker]

No, I mean they can continue without the ban penalties-like everything is still the same after July first since they came out before it. The new system was made for new Shonen Titles, but current and old ones are exempt from it.

So we'll be able to have Naruto, One Piece, and Bleach for a long while without any problems until they end. :biggrin:

Everyone on other sites are concerned about Seinen Titles...which aren't affected by the Bill. Everyone's screaming 'Berserk! Is it going to be canned'? Its getting annoying since its not affected at all by the bill, same with the current Shonen Titles.

Well, that much is good then. At least the anime and manga industries will have a bit of time to adapt to this bill if they have to (sadly, I think that they will have to).

[NaruHina12]

Well, that much is good then. At least the anime and manga industries will have a bit of time to adapt to this bill if they have to (sadly, I think that they will have to).
The petition is being examined now. It has 150,000 signatures, so something tells me it'll have some effect. Not only that, the Prime Minister is starting to take steps against Ishihara, especially with the huge economic repercussions that this bill will make on Japan as a whole. 10 Manga and Anime Companies are even boycotting this year's Anime Expo...which is a big money maker.

[Robotech Master]

Rating system is the fault in Japan ?


God bless a country that doesnt have health care for everybody like most non 3rd world country....

I dont want to bash US but its a bit arrogant to think US is so great when you lack common systems that by law take care of the people of a country for free.

You're heading into unnecessary semantics here. It was clear he was letting out a sigh of relief in regards to the bill of rights and its ability to be cited as an immediate deterrant to things like this; and *nothing* more than that.

Suddenly bringing up political topics to shoot down "arrogance" at being proud/relieved at *one* god damned thing about his country isn't helping, nor is it likely informing Legato of anything he wasn't fully aware of.



Well, that much is good then. At least the anime and manga industries will have a bit of time to adapt to this bill if they have to (sadly, I think that they will have to).

yeah, clearly some people will become paranoid about its reach and so will have unnecessary fears, but the iffyness of this bill isn't about retroactive effects, but about its future applications. Can Shounen Jump no longer carry the next Death Note-ish style thriller? Will some future works that would have been Shounen end up given more limited Seinen magazine slots and therefore lose out on demographic--and to avoid this the mangaka's will then have to adhere to stringent and vague rules in order to pass? It remains to be seen, but those are some annoying applications right there.

I mean, there's a reason 10+ major companies, including friggin Kodansha, want to not support the Tokyo Anime Fair because of it.

[DeadXMan]

Rating system is the fault in Japan ?


God bless a country that doesnt have health care for everybody like most non 3rd world country....

I dont want to bash US but its a bit arrogant to think US is so great when you lack common systems that by law take care of the people of a country for free.


yes look how great Countires like France, Spain, Ireland, and Greece are doing.

[Darth Joker]

The petition is being examined now. It has 150,000 signatures,

Signatures against the bill, you mean?

If so, that's quite impressive and promising. Either the otaku community is larger than I thought it was, or even many non-otakus are joining in to oppose the bill (which is possible, as this bill also targets video games to an extent).



something tells me it'll have some effect. Not only that, the Prime Minister is starting to take steps against Ishihara, especially with the huge economic repercussions that this bill will make on Japan as a whole. 10 Manga and Anime Companies are even boycotting this year's Anime Expo...which is a big money maker.

Well, maybe this bill won't pass. :smile:

[NaruHina12]

Signatures against the bill, you mean?
Yep, exactly. And there may be another 2,000,000 coming in.

If so, that's quite impressive and promising. Either the otaku community is larger than I thought it was, or even many non-otakus are joining in to oppose the bill (which is possible, as this bill also targets video games to an extent).
Yep. Cynical people on Narutofan are claiming that it won't make a difference...but 150,000 signatures from both fans and non-fans? Yeah, it is a big deal.




Well, maybe this bill won't pass. :smile:
The only way we stop it once and for all is if Ishihara dies between now and July 1st. He's a 78 year old man...something tells me his hour glass is running out.

More news about the bill-doesn't sound like its much to worry about:


But today in Tokyo, the second version of the bill went up for a vote and passed by the assembly with a final vote on Wednesday. As blogger Dan Kanemitsu points out, the ordinance is not national legislation, and is not a ban per se, but penalizes companies that produce material that is harmful to those under 18 years-old. Unlike in the U.S., companies that produce the material — and not retailers — come under fire.

The member Inuhanyou on Narutofan keeps posting things like how Shonen Jump will be affected, always posting a stupid little smiley. However, he has yet to provide one source, even for this "Q&A" he posted:


Q: This is only sexual stuff, right?
A: No. It reads "anything that may hinder the healthy growth of youths by stirring sexual emotions, promoting cruel behaviour, or causing suicidal or criminal tendencies", which is a purposefully ambiguous blanket statement that can pretty much be applied to anything. Even Doraemon could be considered 18+ under this.

Q: Elaborate?
A: No criminal acts. That means no killing, no stealing, no carrying of weapons, no sharing of bicycles, no smoking/drinking for minors (in fact since it says "promoting" criminal behaviour, it could be argued that no smoking/drinking will be allowed at all). Basically anything with action could be considered promoting cruel/criminal behaviour. Meanwhile the "stirring sexual emotions" part will similarly affect anything with fanservice or romance. So basically, only stuff like Hidamari Sketch will remain.

Q: What will this affect?
A: All forms of fiction except novels and live action.

Q: How will it affect them?
A: In Tokyo, everything has to be classified by the industry under either all-ages (below 18) and 18+, and stores will have to make sure minors can't get 18+ stuff.

Q: So just slap an 18+ sticker and life goes on as usual, no big deal, right?
A: No. If they can't sell it to minors they won't bother making it in the first place.

Q: Only Tokyo, so move out, no big deal.
A: Tokyo is the economic centre of Japan, plus all of the big companies honsha are located in Tokyo (some have their own ridiculously expensive skyscrapers located in ridiculously expensive districts). The rest of the country will be affected. Plus if it's passed in Tokyo, other prefectures are very likely to follow suit, as always.
He didn't provide a source for it.

[Robotech Master]

The only way we stop it once and for all is if Ishihara dies between now and July 1st. He's a 78 year old man...something tells me his hour glass is running out.

While I don't wish death on him, Tokyo will be so much better when he's out of office, assuming they avoid someone just as bad as him for their next run.

How Tokyo could continue to allow a man who claimed Africans shouldn't be allowed in because they should only allow "intelligent people" into their country, that women who continue to live after losing thier reproductive abilities are commiting a sin, that French isn't an international language because French people can't count, and that China must be lying about Nanking--just to name a few gems, is just beyond me. This is also the man who played the "think of the children" card to try and justify deforestation because forests "eat children."

[NaruHina12]

While I don't wish death on him, Tokyo will be so much better when he's out of office, assuming they avoid someone just as bad as him for their next run.

How Tokyo could continue to allow a man who claimed Africans shouldn't be allowed in because they should only allow "intelligent people" into their country, that women who continue to live after losing thier reproductive abilities are commiting a sin, that French isn't an international language because French people can't count, and that China must be lying about Nanking--just to name a few gems, is just beyond me. This is also the man who played the "think of the children" card to try and justify deforestation because forests "eat children."
He's a Villain With Good Publicity...and that really sucks.

Again, Inuhanyou's post...no source:


Q: This is only sexual stuff, right?
A: No. It reads "anything that may hinder the healthy growth of youths by stirring sexual emotions, promoting cruel behaviour, or causing suicidal or criminal tendencies", which is a purposefully ambiguous blanket statement that can pretty much be applied to anything. Even Doraemon could be considered 18+ under this.

Q: Elaborate?
A: No criminal acts. That means no killing, no stealing, no carrying of weapons, no sharing of bicycles, no smoking/drinking for minors (in fact since it says "promoting" criminal behaviour, it could be argued that no smoking/drinking will be allowed at all). Basically anything with action could be considered promoting cruel/criminal behaviour. Meanwhile the "stirring sexual emotions" part will similarly affect anything with fanservice or romance. So basically, only stuff like Hidamari Sketch will remain.

Q: What will this affect?
A: All forms of fiction except novels and live action.

Q: How will it affect them?
A: In Tokyo, everything has to be classified by the industry under either all-ages (below 18) and 18+, and stores will have to make sure minors can't get 18+ stuff.

Q: So just slap an 18+ sticker and life goes on as usual, no big deal, right?
A: No. If they can't sell it to minors they won't bother making it in the first place.

Q: Only Tokyo, so move out, no big deal.
A: Tokyo is the economic centre of Japan, plus all of the big companies honsha are located in Tokyo (some have their own ridiculously expensive skyscrapers located in ridiculously expensive districts). The rest of the country will be affected. Plus if it's passed in Tokyo, other prefectures are very likely to follow suit, as always.

[Darth Joker]

While I don't wish death on him, Tokyo will be so much better when he's out of office, assuming they avoid someone just as bad as him for their next run.

How Tokyo could continue to allow a man who claimed Africans shouldn't be allowed in because they should only allow "intelligent people" into their country, that women who continue to live after losing thier reproductive abilities are commiting a sin, that French isn't an international language because French people can't count, and that China must be lying about Nanking--just to name a few gems, is just beyond me. This is also the man who played the "think of the children" card to try and justify deforestation because forests "eat children."

That last one is genuinely hilarious. :biggrin: I mean, that reasoning is on the level of a Captain Planet villain! Now whenever I think of Ishihara, I'm going to think of an older Looten Plunder in my mind, lol.

[Sound Silence]

In general, I think obscenity is a word that should be excluded from any law. What people consider obscene is inherently and unavoidably subjective and is something for protocol and social dynamics to take care of, not something to arrest people over.

Yes. I mean...I can get that "obscenity" is generally meant to be in place so they can prevent images like you find in certain disgusting internet videos from showing up in public, but really that kind of a blanket term could be abused greatly.



What's being threatened here is not the most adult of anime or manga material. That will be largely unaffected - the bread and butter of such material is sales to adults, and they (we) can still legally buy it even if this bill is passed.

It's the slightly edgy stuff aimed at teens first, and adults second, that is really threatened by this bill. It's the backbone of the anime and manga industry, not just some fringe ecchi/hentai title somewhere.

You're absolutely right. It's not going to affect things like father-daughter murderpedonecrophilia rape fetish hentai (i.e. things that could arguably be considered actually harmful) because that stuff is already underground or whatever.



God bless a country that doesnt have health care for everybody like most non 3rd world country....

I dont want to bash US but its a bit arrogant to think US is so great when you lack common systems that by law take care of the people of a country for free.


yes look how great Countires like France, Spain, Ireland, and Greece are doing.

Let's not get into this right here now...


While I don't wish death on him, Tokyo will be so much better when he's out of office, assuming they avoid someone just as bad as him for their next run.

How Tokyo could continue to allow a man who claimed Africans shouldn't be allowed in because they should only allow "intelligent people" into their country, that women who continue to live after losing thier reproductive abilities are commiting a sin, that French isn't an international language because French people can't count, and that China must be lying about Nanking--just to name a few gems, is just beyond me.

Wow. Just goes to show how different Japan is from America.


This is also the man who played the "think of the children" card to try and justify deforestation because forests "eat children."

Please tell me there's a quotable source for this.


Edit: Oh yes, here it is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSWxdHDuDrc#t=3m38s).

Not only will the forest eat children, it will eat them to death!

[Robotech Master]

Not only will the forest eat children, it will eat them to death!

Ha, I didn't even know it was on Youtube. Good show.

When an environmentalist sent a letter mentioning that the deforestation would conflict with the "being Green" intention, he also dismissed the argument as not worth getting into because "he's a foreigner, it doesn't matter."

[OverMaster]

Wow. Chavez doesn't look that bad after reading about this Ishihara guy.

[Robotech Master]

Wow. Chavez doesn't look that bad after reading about this Ishihara guy.

Oh, did I mention that during his tirade against homosexuality being allowed on TV, he also stated that tv and manga shouldn't be allowed to even insinuate the idea, let alone depict, that a *married couple* has a sexual relationship, because such knowledge would be damaging to Japan's youth, and that anyone who didn't agree with him on this was "an idiot." Oh he's fun.:biggrin:

And he does get flak for his shit, but he always has some bullshit excuse--though sometimes it never even passes the bullshit test. For instance, when he said that quip about women being useless after childbirth phase, he said that in a private interview, admitting that he couldn't say that as a politician (Yeah, that makes it SO much better), and when he received criticism for the comments, he wrote it off by saying that all of the critics must have been "tyrant old hags."

The people who write those hypothetical 'day in the life of Mel Gibson' pieces couldn't come up with this shit.

[OverMaster]

Oh, did I mention that during his tirade against homosexuality being allowed on TV, he also stated that tv and manga shouldn't be allowed to even insinuate the idea, let alone depict, that a *married couple* has a sexual relationship, because such knowledge would be damaging to Japan's youth, and that anyone who didn't agree with him on this was "an idiot." Oh he's fun.:biggrin:

And he does get flak for his shit, but he always has some bullshit excuse--though sometimes it never even passes the bullshit test. For instance, when he said that quip about women being useless after childbirth phase, he said that in a private interview, admitting that he couldn't say that as a politician (Yeah, that makes it SO much better), and when he received criticism for the comments, he wrote it off by saying that all of the critics must have been "tyrant old hags."

The people who write those hypothetical 'day in the life of Mel Gibson' pieces couldn't come up with this shit.

http://www.toplessrobot.com/toht%20face%20melting.jpg

Seriously, Japan. How do you allow this chimp to climb so up the three.

[NaruHina12]

Technically, his position isn't that high up-he was defeated in national politics and decided to go the local level.

[Robotech Master]

Technically, his position isn't that high up-he was defeated in national politics and decided to go the local level.

By the by, when Kyuubi Naruto trying the Bijuu Rasengan is shrunk down to the size of your avatar, it looks like he's engaged in the most serious masturbation episode ever, lol. That or he's engaged in the most constipated dump ever.

[Assassin Spider]

While I don't wish death on him, Tokyo will be so much better when he's out of office, assuming they avoid someone just as bad as him for their next run.

How Tokyo could continue to allow a man who claimed Africans shouldn't be allowed in because they should only allow "intelligent people" into their country, that women who continue to live after losing thier reproductive abilities are commiting a sin, that French isn't an international language because French people can't count, and that China must be lying about Nanking--just to name a few gems, is just beyond me.


Wow. Just goes to show how different Japan is from America.

Not that different, man. The same kind of xenophobic ultranationalism is brewing strong in America as in Japan; conservative politicians in America might have slightly more sense than to go to that same level as the guy Robotech Master commented on and to at least publicly disavow the crazier amongst them, but make no mistake, those attitudes are very much alive in America as well as in Japan. Economic decline leads to increased tribalism, especially when it comes to immigrant and other ethnic populations that the dominant culture comes to see as "parasites" taking resources from them; just look at how much crap has been flung when it comes to the Hispanic community in America, particularly considering that demographic projections make it out like they'll outnumber white people by 2050.

Not to mention that in Japan, many of the ethnics come from East Asian countries that were horrifically brutalized by Imperial Japan during WW2, and unlike post-Hitler Germany, many Japanese never experienced that epiphany about the horror of what they'd done to those people. As a result, they continued to hold a certain degree of xenophobia for non-Japanese and in light of their country being in economic decline for far longer than many Western nations, particularly the U.S., they've had longer to marinate in their resentment for their national pride being "stolen" by foreigners.

That's why guys like thAT, with retrograde ideas about women's place in society and regressive attitudes about ethnic and sexual minorities, are getting to be so popular. Whenever there's widespread suffering, there's always someone ready to point at some historically disfavored group of people and say that it's all "their fault," and people will eat it up because it gives them a target for their anger and frustration, without which they'd probably turn all that negativity on themselves and eat each other alive.

My two cents, sorry for going off-topic.

[NaruHina12]

On Narutofan, Inuhanyou keeps spreading his misinformation about this thing. CURRENT SERIES WON'T BE AFFECTED, and the only 'legal action' are fines. That's it.

[Sound Silence]

On Narutofan, Inuhanyou keeps spreading his misinformation about this thing. CURRENT SERIES WON'T BE AFFECTED, and the only 'legal action' are fines. That's it.

Kinda makes the idea pointless though, to include a grandfather clause like that.

Still...if they're going with that, then maybe it won't be so bad after all. Maybe they won't actually go to the extremes people are worried about.

[NaruHina12]

Kinda makes the idea pointless though, to include a grandfather clause like that.

Still...if they're going with that, then maybe it won't be so bad after all. Maybe they won't actually go to the extremes people are worried about.
The only reason why it's passing its because Ishihara will continue to push it no matter how many times its defeated. Once it's passed-other issues can finally be moved onto. And not only that, even if it does get passed today-it will be repealed by the Prime Minister.

[NaruHina12]

Looks like we'll have to wait till June for this to really get a resolution. From J-Cast News:


In Tokyo to regulate sales to under 18 years of manga and anime depicting sexual and violent "youth healthy development regulations" over and barked toward the Governor Shintaro Ishihara's deluxe commentators Matsuko. Ishihara's remarks against homosexuals "insane!" Anger, also opposed the regulations. The net is "well I did say" has been talked about this.

Healthy development of the city ordinance passed in youth Affairs Committee on June 13. It is expected to be enacted also passed at the plenary session of the 15th Tokyo Metropolitan Government. "Facing the brunt of anime and manga chance"

The news program broadcast information 13 "crazy at 5:00!" (Tokyo MX) were picked.

Article introduces the sport's newspaper clippings Itsumi Taro moderator. Participation in an article in the Tokyo Anime Fair 取Riyameta big publishers such as Kadokawa opposition to the ordinance, Matsuko's requests for comment.

Added Matsuko is, PTA those that are harmful to the educational and the only manga and anime original was not, "or be limited to manga and anime what? Changed to make it easier through the bill not pass in June, I feel that only focus on manga and anime hit the brunt of it happened, "he said.

This amendment was issued in late November, when the Tokyo Metropolitan Assembly in June was rejected by "ambiguous expression" and who said "young people non-existent" delete the word. Target more "cartoon animations and other images (except for live action)" is to clarify this.

"It wants to regulate the action of the PTA know. But just because they are not alone with 乗Kkatsu to protect young people truly feel, making these moves, " he said. Usually show a serious look at rage

Ishihara is promoting the establishment of this ordinance is that there Matsuko's mind. Ishihara is the month when the 12 PTA lobby for a comic portrayal of the regulatory body, "You do not hesitate to come out of gay guys in television something, " he said. Since then, "(homosexuals) is missing somewhere feeling. It because of genetic or" gay Betsu視 and take repeated remarks and so on.

Matsuko's said, "I do not mean to level the playing field was not so 立Chitakunai" while they hope to introduce these remarks Ishihara, usually show a serious expression, "you might say I'm crazy, this statement is ". It is unfavorable to all persons with homosexual and transvestite known, thinks there ought to be their opinion and personal impressions. However, the fact that Ishihara is promoting sexual regulations such as public figures to speak, "We just lost all credibility. Say that I'm crazy, " and is truncated.

Has become a hot topic in the net, You Tube video that was part of Matsuko's remarks. Has played more than 15, 000 times a day, "well said! Matsuko's agreed!" "I'm not a comment on these commercial people" or something like, "Tokyo is local MX on TV saying it is amazing "and has received many responses. ■J-CAST News What is it?

Traditional media and in different unique perspective, and to disseminate the various articles on business and the media. Makoto Makoto readers can post comments! Selling items at a glance! !Watch sellerOpen!

Tokyo Metropolitan Assembly Affairs Committee yesterday, a revised draft ordinance to regulate sexually healthy development of young people animation cartoon, democracy put to the additional resolution, the Liberal Democratic majority voted in favor of each party Koumei. Japanese Communist Party, was opposed Mirai net consumers. Voting in the final plenary session of 15 days.

Yoshida Nobuo 都議 Prior to the Japanese Communist Party voted for the healthy growth of youth Hakaru, books and Internet sales, provided that certain rules of cell phone use is necessary, but regulation should be minimized he said. The current regulations "unhealthy books" given the number has decreased dramatically, the need for expansion and said regulated unclear.

Mr. Yoshida is a cartoon depiction of a crime is established as "sexually lewd" about the city can not answer clearly whether and how to determine whether "sex between close relatives" on the description, history Even if the subject matter of work "Kakotsuketa" about the city's stated to be regulated if it is determined "to take a step fraught with the risk of new regulations expanding the expression" and criticized.

Yoshida said the city is preparing the revision, not seeking to point out that even self-regulatory organizations published opinion. Participants expressed that the refusal to cooperate Tokyo International Anime Fair 10 largest comic book publisher is "a natural result, " he said. "Careful management" and ask about the side agreement "to be correct serious flaws in the bill is not, " he pointed out.

332 petition against the amendment petition the Japanese Communist Party, called for the purpose of adopting the net for the three parties to the public rejection Zimin.

[Darth Joker]

NaruHina12 - While I appreciate the added news info, I honestly find that translation pretty garbled, and hard to follow. Is there a Cliff's notes version that just sums up the basic facts and points?

[NaruHina12]

NaruHina12 - While I appreciate the added news info, I honestly find that translation pretty garbled, and hard to follow. Is there a Cliff's notes version that just sums up the basic facts and points?
Basically, its a discussion of the effect the bill will have if it comes into effect in July. Ishihara makes an ass of himself talking to political Commentator Matsuko, and finally, even though it passed today, the FINAL test is in June. Hence the:



Added Matsuko is, PTA those that are harmful to the educational and the only manga and anime original was not, "or be limited to manga and anime what? Changed to make it easier through the bill not pass in June, I feel that only focus on manga and anime hit the brunt of it happened, "he said.

[Robotech Master]

I heard it passed actually. If the PM really can repeal it, I hope for that.

You know what really pisses me off the most though? On anime boards everywhere there are handfuls of douchebags essentially posting what amounts to this:

"Hey, I'm not into any of the stuff being affected by the bill, so I'm happy; to everyone who is affected, Fuck you assholes, now the industry is going to have to cater to what I want to watch, hurr durr hurr hurr."

[NaruHina12]

It 'passed', but in June is where it counts. It has to pass THEN, not now, according to J-Cast News.

[Robotech Master]

Err...might that babel fish translation be referring to when it went up the first time as the Non-existant Youths bill? As in last June. When was it that it first went up this year?

[NaruHina12]

Err...might that babel fish translation be referring to when it went up the first time as the Non-existant Youths bill? As in last June. When was it that it first went up this year?
Both last June and next June were referred to in the article. And I got that from today, the time it was added when I got it was 32 minutes previously on December 14th, 2010.

[MKTerra]

Added Matsuko is, PTA those that are harmful to the educational and the only manga and anime original was not, "or be limited to manga and anime what? Changed to make it easier through the bill not pass in June, I feel that only focus on manga and anime hit the brunt of it happened, "he said.

This amendment was issued in late November, when the Tokyo Metropolitan Assembly in June was rejected by "ambiguous expression" and who said "young people non-existent" delete the word. Target more "cartoon animations and other images (except for live action)" is to clarify this.AFAICT, the guy is saying the previous version failed last June because of vague wording, so this time they got it through by specifically targeting drawings and exempting live-action.

[NaruHina12]

...turns out the Bill DID pass, http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-12-15/full-tokyo-assembly-passes-youth-ordinance-bill :


The full Tokyo Metropolitan Assembly approved the government's revised bill to amend the Youth Healthy Development Ordinance on Wednesday afternoon.

The current ordinance already prevents the sale and renting of "harmful publications" — materials that are "sexually stimulating, encourages cruelty, and/or may compel suicide or criminal behavior" to people under the age of 18. Bill 156 would require the industry to also regulate "manga, anime, and other images (except for real-life photography)" that "unjustifiably glorify or exaggerate" certain sexual or pseudo sexual acts. Another section of the revised bill would allow the government to directly regulate the above images if the depicted acts are also "considered to be excessively disrupting of social order" such as rape.

The assembly also approved a non-binding supplemental resolution urging newly designated harmful publications to be carefully regulated, with the work's merits based on artistic, social, and other criteria to be taken into account in the evaluation process.

The voluntary self-regulation clauses will go into effect on April 1 of next year, and the restrictions on sales and renting will go into effect on July 1.
Now this really doesn't sound that bad considering how much it was hyped up to be. Hell, Tokyo's City Government doesn't have any authority at all and can't enforce it.

[Inkthinker]

the fact that censorship to this degree couldn't happen here (hopefully) due to the constitution

HAHAHAhahaaa.... *sob*.

History FAIL.

Not only can this happen in America, it already did. Read up on the Comics Code Authority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_code).

Take a good look at comics that existed prior to 1954 (like Will Eisner's The Spirit or anything EC was putting out) and everything that was mainstream from the 60's into the 80's, and you can see the effect of the Code on storytelling and artwork. A nascent, thriving industry was crippled for decades. Only in the last 20 years have we really stepped out and begun creating comics in a world without CCA interference.

[NaruHina12]

Yet this is nothing like the Comic's Code Authority. The Tokyo Government doesn't even have the means to enforce this.

[OverMaster]

Yet this is nothing like the Comic's Code Authority. The Tokyo Government doesn't even have the means to enforce this.

Why should not it?

And besides, even if they cannot, another faction of nutjob politicians will do it for them.

[NaruHina12]

Why should not it?

And besides, even if they cannot, another faction of nutjob politicians will do it for them.
There's been a lot of misunderstandings about the bill. Only the publishers can enforce it, and know what the most will happen? Seinen Manga and others will be wrapped in sheet wrap to prevent them from getting into the hands of children who enter the manga shops and book stores.

[Robotech Master]

There's been a lot of misunderstandings about the bill. Only the publishers can enforce it, and know what the most will happen? Seinen Manga and others will be wrapped in sheet wrap to prevent them from getting into the hands of children who enter the manga shops and book stores.

Yes, but its not the execution of the law that sucks, its always the intent that is dangerous. In this case, doing something unnecessary or trivial for the sake of greater regulatory power among the powers that be under the guise of doing something for the good of the community. As long as that intent gets a foot in the door, it creates precedent and litigation by which abuse of that law can be furthered by certain individuals; that's where some of the vague wording can become problematic. That's where its annoying to have something like this hovering over you, especially as a creator, when you feel as if you have extra eyes pouring over your ideas because now the role of business economics in your creativity multiplies.

It remains to be seen what kind of things they set in stone to help set proper guidelines for the way the law will work. If we're lucky, it never gets past what you suggest. But these things definitely need extra language used to defend against "logic abuse." Did you know that it wasn't so long ago in the US that religions were not allowed to practice disbelief in war (ie couldn't refuse the draft) on the logical grounds that "You only have freedom of religion by defending your country so you must go to war in order to have the right to not go to war."

The other absurdly stupid thing about this is that you'll probably have mass occurrences of parents buying these marked Manga and just giving it to their children if they think its ok for them, ultimately making it not much more than like our M rated Video Game system and thus ultimately making it just an exercise in giving a select group of people too much power in determining what goes into that rating.

[Lobsterdom]

*rolls eyes*
Jeeze, as if this will prevent kids from reading/watching porn...
One of the female members of the committee that landed this bill even went to call otaku boys and yaoi fangirls "dysfunctional" and must be labeled "handicapped" by the government. No wonder this country is going down the shitter; it's run by nutcases.

[Sound Silence]

Not only can this happen in America, it already did. Read up on the Comics Code Authority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_code)

I think that highlights the problem.

The constitution means they can't make it illegal to publish such things, due to first amendment rights.

But...if it doesn't pass the Code, it doesn't get the Seal, and publishing without the Seal was a death sentence because no one'd by non-Code compliant stuff...which is the loophole logic it ran on.

The "adults only" label here is under a similar principle.

[Assassin Spider]

*rolls eyes*
Jeeze, as if this will prevent kids from reading/watching porn...
One of the female members of the committee that landed this bill even went to call otaku boys and yaoi fangirls "dysfunctional" and must be labeled "handicapped" by the government. No wonder this country is going down the shitter; it's run by nutcases.

She sounds like one of the more radical feminists on this side of the Pacific, a radical feminist of the "sex-negative" persuasion, i.e. "sexuality is a tool by which men subjugate and demean women, so sex is inherently evil." Or she could just be one of those annoying moral guardians/media watchdogs who think youth-oriented media/culture promotes moral degeneracy. Either one wouldn't be too far off from what you just remarked upon, and we get plenty of that same mentality in North America, especially when it comes to allegedly protecting the delicate sensibilities of the very people (children and women) they routinely step on to serve their own interests. Hypocrisy is global.

[Assassin Spider]

*rolls eyes*
Jeeze, as if this will prevent kids from reading/watching porn...
One of the female members of the committee that landed this bill even went to call otaku boys and yaoi fangirls "dysfunctional" and must be labeled "handicapped" by the government. No wonder this country is going down the shitter; it's run by nutcases.

Sounds a lot like some of the more rabid feminists we get stateside, the kind that think of sex and sexuality as inherently evil because of how men use it to exploit, subjugate, and demean women. Or she could be one of those media watchdogs that think anything specifically geared toward young people and/or certain subcultures is inherently morally degenerate, like people thought about rock & roll back in the 1950s and 1960s, how people thought of hip-hop and rap back in the 1980s and 1990s, and how people have been thinking about video games from the late 1990s into the 2000s. It's nothing new and nothing unusual in any part of the world at any point in history for politically powerful people to think they ought to unilaterally decide what forms of cultural expression are "morally acceptable." Doesn't make this any less of a bitter pill to swallow, especially for some Western otaku who've been used to thinking of Japan as a metaphorical holy land where they will find a community willing to accept them for all their "freakish" hobbies and interests and predilections.

[Hazard]

So, Ishihara says, that otaku have corrupt DNA:

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2010/12/17/ishihara-otaku-have-corrupt-dna/ (Site not worksafe)

That's right all of you. You are genetically corrupt.

[Siriel]

So, Ishihara says, that otaku have corrupt DNA:

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2010/12/17/ishihara-otaku-have-corrupt-dna/ (Site not worksafe)

That's right all of you. You are genetically corrupt.

But I frequently expose myself to fire and do not burst into flame, how can I be corrupt?

[Sound Silence]

“causing harm without a single benefit.”

Hey, Mac, just 'cuz you don't benefit from it...

I get a lot of benefits from hentai. :cool:

[OverMaster]

If this guy actually had the power to order anyone legally executed, we'd have the Japanese Idi Amin Dada, I'm sure.

[MKTerra]

So, Ishihara says, that otaku have corrupt DNA:

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2010/12/17/ishihara-otaku-have-corrupt-dna/ (Site not worksafe)

That's right all of you. You are genetically corrupt.And now he's outlawed the only thing keeping us from breeding. :wink:

[Bakasama]

And now he's outlawed the only thing keeping us from breeding. :wink:

Given that he's using the Japanese definition of "otaku" and that otaku aren't really that popular over there, I kind of see what he's talking about. Still, doesn't make him less of a jerk.

[Robotech Master]

Given that he's using the Japanese definition of "otaku" and that otaku aren't really that popular over there, I kind of see what he's talking about. Still, doesn't make him less of a jerk.

Well, the particular quote I read never actually said "Otaku," he said the people who read and write that (which violates the new bill) have warped DNA.

When someone brought up that he can be quoted in the past as hailing that corruptness and crime was an individual problem that can't be blamed on literature/film/games, he replied "I was wrong back then, the world has changed." Convenient.

[Inkthinker]

Western otaku who've been used to thinking of Japan as a metaphorical holy land where they will find a community willing to accept them for all their "freakish" hobbies and interests and predilections.

Anyone thinking that oughtta check out Felipe Smith's Peepo Choo.

Which, coincidentally, is full of violence, nudity, and nearly-illustrated sex.

[HectorP]

Corrupt DNA?

Vague legalities?

I'm so outta here. My wallet will punish accordingly.

[Robotech Master]

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/brain-diving/2010-12-21

An in depth description and look at what the bill is and how it might affect things. One of the most damning things, for a lot of people I'm sure, is that the "grandfather" effect apparently only includes stuff currently being put out, NOT reprints and reissues.

It also points out that the bill could end up largely more discrimanatory towards Shoujo as opposed to Shounen, as the former is more likely to be focused on relationships, possibly including sex, yaoi, forbidden relationships, and other sources of drama.

[Assassin Spider]

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/brain-diving/2010-12-21

An in depth description and look at what the bill is and how it might affect things. One of the most damning things, for a lot of people I'm sure, is that the "grandfather" effect apparently only includes stuff currently being put out, NOT reprints and reissues.

It also points out that the bill could end up largely more discrimanatory towards Shoujo as opposed to Shounen, as the former is more likely to be focused on relationships, possibly including sex, yaoi, forbidden relationships, and other sources of drama.

In other words, the "inferior" gender/race/orientation is the one that suffers from censorship, while the "superior" gender/race/orientation can weasel its way out from under those same laws. Basically further repress the groups that are already being repressed by the laws already on the books, and make it even harder for them to get out from under the yoke of the dominant culture.

[Ghost]

So, Ishihara says, that otaku have corrupt DNA:

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2010/12/17/ishihara-otaku-have-corrupt-dna/ (Site not worksafe)

That's right all of you. You are genetically corrupt.

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/5594/tworkthatway.jpg

Why do they allow this man to speak in public?

[Lobsterdom]

So, Ishihara says, that otaku have corrupt DNA:

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2010/12/17/ishihara-otaku-have-corrupt-dna/ (Site not worksafe)

That's right all of you. You are genetically corrupt.

And don't forget fellow otaku, this is the guy who wrote a novel depicting explicit under age rape and abortion which... drumroll... won a literary prize.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season_of_the_Sun

[Robotech Master]

And don't forget fellow otaku, this is the guy who wrote a novel depicting explicit under age rape and abortion which... drumroll... won a literary prize.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season_of_the_Sun

But of course, it only targets (currently...beware the future) manga, not novels, so it ends up a bit discriminatory towards one form of media but not the others.

And beyond that, he has a classic politicians response. When people remind him that he said media doesn't create criminals, he responds that he was wrong back then and the world has changed since. Changed to conveniently supply his agenda. Yeah. Somehow, someway, it worked out just like that.

[Assassin Spider]

But of course, it only targets (currently...beware the future) manga, not novels, so it ends up a bit discriminatory towards one form of media but not the others.

And beyond that, he has a classic politicians response. When people remind him that he said media doesn't create criminals, he responds that he was wrong back then and the world has changed since. Changed to conveniently supply his agenda. Yeah. Somehow, someway, it worked out just like that.

Part of it, also, is the generation gap and general neophobia (fear of the new) on the part of every society's elder citizens. Those older citizens are often more traditionalist and conservative because those traditions have kept them materially and politically secure, hence they are threatened by new media like anime/manga, videogames, and the Internet because the younger generations rely on those for their information and entertainment rather than the "old" media which largely caters to the sensibilities of their elders.

Ultimately, it doesn't have nearly as much to do with preserving "morality" or "decency" so much as it has to do with preserving the elders' stranglehold on economic, political, and cultural power. In plainer terms, if those elders cannot find a way to control new media and make it serve their interests, they will put it behind tall and thick walls so that it cannot influence the younger generations to rebel against their authority. That's really what they're afraid of, not that new media will create or encourage sexual deviants but that it will encourage free-thinking among the youth in such a way as to subvert the sociopolitical authority those elders want to hold onto so desperately.

That's why they're going after the manga, and the anime, and the videogames, and playing off the long-held sentiment that there's something "wrong" with people who like them to gain support for it. They simply don't want the younger generations, many of whom are increasingly dissatisfied with their lives and distrustful of their elders, to have enough motivation to act on that dissatisfaction and distrust in a political manner, especially a political manner that would threaten their own standing. All there is to it.

[Robotech Master]

Part of it, also, is the generation gap and general neophobia (fear of the new) on the part of every society's elder citizens. Those older citizens are often more traditionalist and conservative because those traditions have kept them materially and politically secure, hence they are threatened by new media like anime/manga, videogames, and the Internet because the younger generations rely on those for their information and entertainment rather than the "old" media which largely caters to the sensibilities of their elders.

Ultimately, it doesn't have nearly as much to do with preserving "morality" or "decency" so much as it has to do with preserving the elders' stranglehold on economic, political, and cultural power. In plainer terms, if those elders cannot find a way to control new media and make it serve their interests, they will put it behind tall and thick walls so that it cannot influence the younger generations to rebel against their authority. That's really what they're afraid of, not that new media will create or encourage sexual deviants but that it will encourage free-thinking among the youth in such a way as to subvert the sociopolitical authority those elders want to hold onto so desperately.

That's why they're going after the manga, and the anime, and the videogames, and playing off the long-held sentiment that there's something "wrong" with people who like them to gain support for it. They simply don't want the younger generations, many of whom are increasingly dissatisfied with their lives and distrustful of their elders, to have enough motivation to act on that dissatisfaction and distrust in a political manner, especially a political manner that would threaten their own standing. All there is to it.

This is true in a lot of countries, but in Japan it worries me even more. Japan's current elder politician population is currently made up of a lot of people who grew up in far east areas of Japan essentially hiding under a rock during or immediately following World War II. Hence, the surprising number of vocal people (including Ishihara) who believe Nanking to be a conspiracy. And these people are trying to teach the youth of today.

I mean, just imagine if Holocaust conspirators got far enough in, say, the US to actually be *teaching* that conspiracy in history class. I just hope enough people recognize his bullshit when he gets up there talking about how Forests will eat children to death so lets deforest.

[Assassin Spider]

This is true in a lot of countries, but in Japan it worries me even more. Japan's current elder politician population is currently made up of a lot of people who grew up in far east areas of Japan essentially hiding under a rock during or immediately following World War II. Hence, the surprising number of vocal people (including Ishihara) who believe Nanking to be a conspiracy. And these people are trying to teach the youth of today.

I mean, just imagine if Holocaust conspirators got far enough in, say, the US to actually be *teaching* that conspiracy in history class. I just hope enough people recognize his bullshit when he gets up there talking about how Forests will eat children to death so lets deforest.

You don't necessarily need Holocaust deniers getting into U.S. politics for that to happen; we already have the Texas Board of Education (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) trying to rewrite the history books to foist an ultraconservative version of American history upon the coming generations. Among their changes are basically retconning Thomas Jefferson out of the collective national memory since he was the one who came up with "separation between church and state," putting more emphasis on America's supposed Christian roots, de-emphasizing the historical maltreatment of blacks, Native Americans, immigrant workers, and others, and invoking the current president's full name as a means of emphasizing his "alienness."

Furthermore, the reason the current ultranationalist, ethnocentric, socially conservative, and downright bigoted political wave in Japan is as strong as it is there is the same reason similar movements in America and Europe have gained traction: Those countries are in for a long-term economic decline that has many of their citizens frightened for their own futures. Economic anxiety often leads to social unrest, and that unrest is often exploited by demagogues determined to ride to power on a wave of fear and hatred toward "unknown" or "foreign" elements within their midst. Such crises tend to engender a nationwide obsession with "self-purification," as blame for those crises is foisted upon social, cultural, or political elements considered "deviant" or "subversive." To elucidate, that the dominant culture's uneasy tolerance for those elements allegedly weakened the nation politically, economically, and culturally, and "now it's time to go back to what made us strong," which often means a wholesale purge --- typically in the form of marginalization if not outright exile of persons or groups allegedly representing the "impurities" that made the country "weak."

Yes, I suppose in both the cases of Japan and America (and Europe, too), people will wake up and smell the B.S. eventually, but the question is how much damage to social, cultural, and political discourse those demagogues will cause before that happens.