CBR: Where The Hell Am I - Dec 8, 2010

[CBR News]

Jason looks at Marvel and DC's current pricing strategies and weighs the pros and cons of both approaches, explains the motivation behind the "Wolverine" back-up stories and the difficulty in writing a 20 page comic.


Full article here (http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=29782).

[chrisgiff]

"Let's just get their asses in the seats...And then do our best to give 'em their money's worth."

well put. seems like everyone but the big 2 is in line with that.

[andybmcd]

Excellent article.

[grphxkindaguy]

If the 'big two' have to remove pages to keep the $3 price, I'm all for it. $4 an issue is my breaking point for this hobby I've loved for 30 years.

[Matt Spatola]

Nice article. I appreciate the honesty in the pages vs content discussion. Personally I would have loved a little more insight into his thoughts on the Marvel price structure. Still it was very nicely done.

[md62]

If the 'big two' have to remove pages to keep the $3 price, I'm all for it. $4 an issue is my breaking point for this hobby I've loved for 30 years.

Same here (although it's 40+ yrs for me). And I'm sure the writers can adjust to tell the story in 20 pages. After all a few decades ago stories were only 17 pages & they were pretty good.

[jediracer]

boo 20 page comics

I'm a Scalped trade waiter. If they are removing 10 pages form the story arc, does that affect the price of the trade as well?

[fever00]

I knew this was going to happen. I asked Brian Wood how this would affect the last year of DMZ, and he said it wouldn't but.. fuck. Aaron is right, and I'm pissed. I'm pretty sure some books will be OK, but this has the potential to dramatically affect older that are nearing the finish line.

[glennsim]

Hopefully any lost income from the DC page reduction will be made up in greater sales from those series due to the lowered price point. I'm not under the impression that artists get paid based on sales; but increased sales would result in the series lasting longer, which would ensure ongoing steady work, instead of having one thing get cancelled and having to move on to something different.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

$3.99 is too much to pay for a comic - even great one's don't feel like value at that price - and that it all started at Marvel to 'maximize profit', presumably to boost up for the Disney sale, just feels really sleazy.
Just because we're fanboys and would walk nude through a blizzard for our comics doesn't mean we should be fleeced!

Even with DC's backups, I don't think it really felt like value - the only really good back-up I've read was the Jimmy Olsen one.
If they were all that good, I'd be happy with four bucks* an issue, but they aren't.

I don't mind losing two pages an issue, although I am shocked that they are doing to Vertigo books.
Very surprised that teams on creator owned books weren't told, but not surprised they didn't tell freelancers until it happened - that's the nature of the beast, in every industry.

This column jogged my memory of an old one Steven Grant wrote for CBR, about getting rid of the 22 page story (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=15487)!
It doesn't entirely mirror this situation at all, but I found it interesting that Jason, who presumably has been working with 22 pages for his career, finds it a good length, whereas a writer from a generation or two before, thought it was a really bad one.

*closer to six or seven in Aussie dollars - even with dollar at parity, it still costs more due to international shipping.

[TheDanHale]

This growing rift between rising print costs and the free content of the internet (not to mention a stagnant economy) makes for a pretty sad print marketplace. I will restate my theory, the first big comic company that sells a $50 digital subscription to all of their titles every month could grow their audiences instead of chasing the ever-shrinking print market. You could also sell "The Batman Package" or whatever for a discounted price. I still like print books but everything points to a digital comics future and as an artist/writer I do not plan on being a dinosaur :)

[Trey]

Its baffling that publishers went straight from 2.99 to 3.99, which is a huge price increase for any product. Think about it. If the initial jump were $3.25 (which is about 8%) across the board, I guarantee fans would not have been so vehemently opposed.

In my industry, across the board price hikes are 3-5%, not like the exorbitant 33% hike Marvel/DC tried to charge.

[Trey]

This growing rift between rising print costs and the free content of the internet (not to mention a stagnant economy) makes for a pretty sad print marketplace. I will restate my theory, the first big comic company that sells a $50 digital subscription to all of their titles every month could grow their audiences instead of chasing the ever-shrinking print market. You could also sell "The Batman Package" or whatever for a discounted price. I still like print books but everything points to a digital comics future and as an artist/writer I do not plan on being a dinosaur :)

Thats not gonna happen, that would be 33 cents an issue. (150 titles for 50 bucks)

The casual fan (reads 3-4 books) is not gonna want that either.

Unless you think they will get millions of subscribers?

Correction: more like 100 titles for $50, so 50 cents an issue

[ian33407]

why not bringing back the missed pages, still to $ 2.99, but with a less exhaustive paper...you know, the 'pulp' stuff.

if the editors maintain the 20 pages issues, then i want more cases...( that ain't for you Jason, just something i noticed reading 'Essentials' ) even for the current 22 pages issues, that work too.

[ian33407]

more cases.
...with uh, something in it.

[ian33407]

something else than an oleoptical dégradé - yes, some are wonderful...

[ian33407]

You know what i mean...

[Ilash]

why not bringing back the missed pages, still to $ 2.99, but with a less exhaustive paper...you know, the 'pulp' stuff.

if the editors maintain the 20 pages issues, then i want more cases...( that ain't for you Jason, just something i noticed reading 'Essentials' ) even for the current 22 pages issues, that work too.

From everything I've heard, newsprint isn't actually any cheaper than the glossy alternative - certainly not enough to make a difference. Besides, most Vertigo titles are done on "cheaper" paper but it's not like they cost less than DC's superhero line.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Its baffling that publishers went straight from 2.99 to 3.99, which is a huge price increase for any product. Think about it. If the initial jump were $3.25 (which is about 8%) across the board, I guarantee fans would not have been so vehemently opposed.

In my industry, across the board price hikes are 3-5%, not like the exorbitant 33% hike Marvel/DC tried to charge.

Marvel did it because they believed - somewhat rightly it seems - that fans would still pay that price, and if sales dropped, it didn't matter as they were still making an extra buck an issue sold.

John Turitzin said (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2009/06/01/marvels-john-turitzin-on-price-increases-%E2%80%9Cwere-just-looking-to-maximise-our-profits-for-business%E2%80%9D/) that it was done to maximize profits, so there's no factor other than wanting to make more money behind the increase.

[Ari Gold]

I think Mr. Aaron's columns are incredibly insightful.
Especially if you compare it to some of the running columns or Q&A's available on CBR.
The level of honesty shines through. Without following cookie-cutter questions, there's a tremendous amount of flexibility in Aaron's topics. Additionally, we don't get the canned teases and non-information that is so popular in other creator/company CBR-featured columns.

[Erik Larsen]

Comics were 20-pages long for years. Most of the issues of Stan and Jack's FF and Thor were 20 pages as were Stan and Steve's Spider-Man (and Stan and John's for that matter). And there was a long while books were shorter still--at one point new comics had just 17-pages of story--most of those Claremont/Byrne/Austin X-Men comics were 17-pages long. Years earlier it was typical to have several stories in a comic book and 15 pages would be considered a long one. A 22-page story is a relatively recent development (it's been in place as long as I've been in comics but still, given the history of the medium, my 28-years is a tick of the clock) and generations have managed to make due with considerably fewer pages (and almost no continued stories).

It may not be a big time saver for the writer to write 20 pages as opposed to 22 but for an artist--it sure is. 22 is an awkward number of pages to schedule--at 20 an artist can do a page a day and bang through an issue in a month--that extra two always makes things messy in one week or another--and if two pages means saving $1--well, that's not a hard pill to swallow at all. I think what we'll find is that artists will have an easier time making deadlines and that will result in fewer fill-in issues and more consistency and that's a big plus. All things considered--I think it's the right move to make.

My 2¢ as a fellow funnybook creator.

[Erik Larsen]

Its baffling that publishers went straight from 2.99 to 3.99, which is a huge price increase for any product.

But not unprecedented for comics. They jumped from 15¢ to 20¢ and years later from 75¢ to $1, both of which is that same 33% price jump.

[ian33407]

From everything I've heard, newsprint isn't actually any cheaper than the glossy alternative - certainly not enough to make a difference. Besides, most Vertigo titles are done on "cheaper" paper but it's not like they cost less than DC's superhero line.

if that ain't the printing quality ( to handle the new colouring media ) and neither the paper' qualityn why are comics so exhaustive then ? help me coz i'm lost...

i don't think neither Vertigo titles are printing on a 'cheaper' paper...that ain't definetely not what i would call a 'cheaper' paper they're printing on, oh no.

[Devan]

I am of the impression that Marvel is losing market share due to the 4$ titles. Looking at the sales report from the last months, it seems as though DC is owning the top 10, even 20 spots. In my case, Marvel's dramatic price increase has completely changed my comic book reading habits. I wouldn't even consider buying one of the Ultimate titles, despite the talented Mr. Aaron's and Mr. Garney's involvement on Ultimate Cap. All of a sudden, I am far more tempted to pick up more moderately priced titles from Image and Dark Horse, and even non-Vertigo DC.

The problem for Marvel is that hardcore-Marveliites might start sampling DC titles in an attempt to appease their superhero-fix without having to spend ridiculous amounts of money. Then, they might discover that they actually enjoy the DC Universe, and start distributing their money more equally among the big 2.

Ultimately, I believe it possible that Marvel could lose its position as the No 1 comic book company due to this 4$ debacle.

[RunIago]

Thanks to both Mr Aaron and Mr Larsen for their comments on this. I have to say that the couple of LCS that I normally visit all seem guardedly enthusiastic about DCs price change. The general local consensus is that something like this has to be tried to see if that stems the tide of sales sliding.

I am a little, hmmm, perhaps "put off" is too strong, but maybe a little nervous by the comment "I can almost guarantee you it takes Warren Ellis and Matt Fraction a lot longer to write their 16 page issues of Fell and Casanova than it does any of their 22 page comics." Perhaps it was unintentional but to me the implication is that some creators put more effort and and story into certain efforts than into others (as in mainstream comics).

I can understand a writer putting more effort into his/her own properties and I sort of assume that in the back of my mind. But as a reader it is not something I like to hear said out loud. Kind of like reading a hot dog recipe.

[jediracer]

Hopefully any lost income from the DC page reduction will be made up in greater sales from those series due to the lowered price point.

I sincerely doubt that will happen. And if that's what DC's intention was, they are delusional.


why not bringing back the missed pages, still to $ 2.99, but with a less exhaustive paper...you know, the 'pulp' stuff.


Scalped, and all Vertigo books if I'm not mistaken, are not printed on fancy glossy paper.

[NielsVanEekelen]

Very interesting column.

I'd just like to say that for my part, I care less about whether a story impacts the whole of the Marvel Universe (although those stories certainly have their own appeal) and more about whether they matter to the starring characters of that specific story.

To take Wolverine as an example, for a period of many years, Wolverine stories rarely actually impacted Logan--the worst offenders being those endless oneshots. Some were decent stories, but they all left Logan as they found him. He was too big a character to change, and he hasn't had his own supporting cast since... since Larry Hama was on the book, perhaps?

That's why aside from some Wolverine: First Class, I think "Adamantium Men" was the first Wolverine solo book I bought since Origin.

[bluebolt1967]

I'm all for 20 pages as I think it will force writers/editors to tighten things up somewhat and cut down some of the wasted panels/pages. I hate reading a comic that has three or four full splash pages with little dialogue. Art is great, but I'm more interested in things happening in a story. Just read a Fantastic Four comic from several months back where an entire page was devoted to Franklin giving someone a sandwich. Sorry - I'm enjoying this series now, but that was a waste of time. Cutting two pages a month will hopefully help to eliminate some waste. And, two pages for $1.00 savings is a very good thing!

[Johnson!]

I still would have preferred MORE pages and the price increase. In a couple of years the books will be $4 anyway (they'll probably stop briefly at $3.50 first, after this PR debacle), and will those pages come back? (answer: no)

20 pages a month of a story... for that matter, generally a decompressed story... just isn't very much. And yeah, the trades will now be shorter too.

Things get more expensive. It's the nature of inflation, it simply WILL happen. It would be nice if at some point the story was served as well.

[briancwood]

I knew this was going to happen. I asked Brian Wood how this would affect the last year of DMZ, and he said it wouldn't but.. fuck. Aaron is right, and I'm pissed. I'm pretty sure some books will be OK, but this has the potential to dramatically affect older that are nearing the finish line.

I'll clarify this... I'm with Jason about the difficulties of writing 20 pages vs. 22, and I certainly agree about the financial side of it for creators. As far as it affected the end of DMZ, its not going to change the story or the number of issues, but like Jason also said, its probably going to mean some deleted scenes.

brian w

[bluebolt1967]

It might be harder for the writers to do 20 pages instead of 22 because it will force them to tell the story more efficiently. I'm tired of reading a 7 issue story that could have been told in 5 or 6. All of the extra character moments are kind of wasteful. Don't mean to sound like an old fart, but the basic characteristics of superheroes like Spider-Man, the Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Cyclops, etc. were established in the 1960s/1970s when many stories were told in one, two, or three issues. The characteristics came out in the midst of a tightly-plotted story, not in multiple pages set aside for talking heads...

[obii]

I think most complaints about decrompressed writing comes from the superhero genre.

For Veritgo, I am surprised that they did not charge $4 as they are still have the best stories for the money.

And if you planned a 5 parter with 110 pages you can then decide to stay on 5 parts with 100 pages or write a 6 parter with 120 pages.

The waiting time of 5 or 6 months is not that much a difference as long as you tell a good story.

[Tenacious_AA]

I think most complaints about decrompressed writing comes from the superhero genre.

For Veritgo, I am surprised that they did not charge $4 as they are still have the best stories for the money.

And if you planned a 5 parter with 110 pages you can then decide to stay on 5 parts with 100 pages or write a 6 parter with 120 pages.

The waiting time of 5 or 6 months is not that much a difference as long as you tell a good story.

I agree with Obii, you could always just expand instead of condense.
The cut off point from one issue to the next is what would be tricky.

[Erik Larsen]

I am a little, hmmm, perhaps "put off" is too strong, but maybe a little nervous by the comment "I can almost guarantee you it takes Warren Ellis and Matt Fraction a lot longer to write their 16 page issues of Fell and Casanova than it does any of their 22 page comics." Perhaps it was unintentional but to me the implication is that some creators put more effort and and story into certain efforts than into others (as in mainstream comics).

It actually takes more discipline and effort to be succinct and concise than to ramble. Paring a story down to the effective essentials is lost on a lot of writers used to having more space to play with. It's like realizing just how big word balloons are and how few words can fit in them without them being these massive white blobs that blot out all the artwork beneath. I don't think he's saying that Warren Ellis and Matt Fraction put more effort into their creator-owned stuff but rather--dealing with limited space presents its own challenges and those challenges can make work more difficult. A 16-page story can take as long to write--or longer--than a 22-page story.

[DarthCommenter]

Comics were 20-pages long for years. Most of the issues of Stan and Jack's FF and Thor were 20 pages as were Stan and Steve's Spider-Man (and Stan and John's for that matter). And there was a long while books were shorter still--at one point new comics had just 17-pages of story--most of those Claremont/Byrne/Austin X-Men comics were 17-pages long. Years earlier it was typical to have several stories in a comic book and 15 pages would be considered a long one. A 22-page story is a relatively recent development (it's been in place as long as I've been in comics but still, given the history of the medium, my 28-years is a tick of the clock) and generations have managed to make due with considerably fewer pages (and almost no continued stories).

It may not be a big time saver for the writer to write 20 pages as opposed to 22 but for an artist--it sure is. 22 is an awkward number of pages to schedule--at 20 an artist can do a page a day and bang through an issue in a month--that extra two always makes things messy in one week or another--and if two pages means saving $1--well, that's not a hard pill to swallow at all. I think what we'll find is that artists will have an easier time making deadlines and that will result in fewer fill-in issues and more consistency and that's a big plus. All things considered--I think it's the right move to make.

My 2¢ as a fellow funnybook creator.

Does this mean you are thinking of going to 20 pages and dropping Savage Dragon back down to $2.99 …hmmm???? PLEASE, PLEASE.

SD is the only book I’m currently buying for more than $2.99. And I’ve made a personal pact not to buy any $3.99 books (Sorry Wheel of Time, Irredeemable, Incorruptible, Uncanny X-men, Spider-man, I really wanted to keep reading you.) I know you guys all run different studios at Image, but don’t think I haven’t noticed those $3.99 Top Cow books or Marineman launching at $3.99. What a disappointment. The $2.99 revolution has begun! Finally! I hope Image is not left behind.

The bright side of dropping all those books is I am now able to add 8 new books by only dropping 5 (Spiderman counts as 2 books). I’ve started to read your book again (I have no idea what’s going on, BTW, but I’ll stick with it), I’m going to try Chew, I’ve added three new Bat-books, and Lady Mechanika just looks awesome.

[Erik Larsen]

Does this mean you are thinking of going to 20 pages and dropping Savage Dragon back down to $2.99 …hmmm???? PLEASE, PLEASE.

I can't. Sales do not permit that to happen. Unfortunately my choice is a $3.50 cover price or cancellation. I try to make it worth its cover price by jamming in more cool stuff--back up stories, letters pages and pinups--so there are generally MORE than 22-pages of stuff in the book--but I can't reduce the cover price. If the audience suddenly doubled--sure--gladly--but I can't afford to cut it at this point (and no--sales won't double if I cut the cover price--I know better than that).

[deathcry]

I agree with Obii, you could always just expand instead of condense.
The cut off point from one issue to the next is what would be tricky.

What you guys are saying was my first thought too... just add 10 more pages to the story instead of subtracting. I am sure that is easier said than done in some cases.
I am not a writer, but my thought is that ANY size monthly can be restricting for some of your stories. Also, I would think it's not an easy thing to write for both a monthly 20 or 22 pager and a trade thats 4 to 6 of those chapters, but have to hit the beats of the monthly mag. Some stories probably want to be told in shorter versions, some in longer. But thats the genre and all the things mentioned, particularly artists and price points, have to create some kind of limitation.
I think, as a reader, I'd prefer more pages for that extra $1, with two teams doing stories, and they can negotiate maybe the page count split between them. (Yes this is similar to what DC was doing, but not exactly).
To the part about stories that "matter". I think it's nice to be tied into a bigger picture, but I now tend to find that if the story itself is good, I care less about whether every little bit of continuity fits. I can think of some cases where this wasn't the case, but I wouldn't not buy a book because it didn't "matter" to the on-going continuity or whatever

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I don't think he's saying that Warren Ellis and Matt Fraction put more effort into their creator-owned stuff but rather--dealing with limited space presents its own challenges and those challenges can make work more difficult. A 16-page story can take as long to write--or longer--than a 22-page story.

Both Cassanova and Fell actually feel longer than most books with a higher page count, so it shouldn't be a surprise they are harder to write.

I'd love it if it became the industry norm to write like that - or going further, take it to the Goodwin/Simonson Manhunter style!
Give me three plot beats per page, and make me feel like I've read an entire arc in the space of eight pages!
It'd probably lead to many mental breakdowns and RSI's across the industry, as people tried to cram that all in month after month, but I don't care, I'm selfish!


I sincerely doubt that will happen. And if that's what DC's intention was, they are delusional.


Sales have clearly gone down at the 'big two' since the prices went up, so why wouldn't they expect greater sales by bringing them back down?

And even though DC hasn't made the changes line wide yet, their market percentage was very close to Marvel's in November*, even if Marvel made much more money from not that many more books sold.
How long can Marvel keep slipping and still expect to be making more money?


*I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that it's not just the price difference that helped - that was about the best month of Batman books the character has ever had!

[Earl of the RCs]

It actually takes more discipline and effort to be succinct and concise than to ramble. Paring a story down to the effective essentials is lost on a lot of writers used to having more space to play with. It's like realizing just how big word balloons are and how few words can fit in them without them being these massive white blobs that blot out all the artwork beneath. I don't think he's saying that Warren Ellis and Matt Fraction put more effort into their creator-owned stuff but rather--dealing with limited space presents its own challenges and those challenges can make work more difficult. A 16-page story can take as long to write--or longer--than a 22-page story.

I'm a children's musician but I also write other songs and many of my friends are children's writers who write other stuff as well (articles/other books) and we all nearly think it's harder & more time consuming to write something short that's good (so a children's song or picture book) than something longer. The price point vs sales and perceived value thing really comes into picture books too, because often they cost more to produce/print than a novel, but have to be priced lower else they wont sell.

[prismablue]

I get jason's point about storytelling but a dollar for 2 extra pages is too much of a price to pay. It's too much to ask of readers.

It's bad enough readers are forced to buy books not based on quality because they are 'needed' to understand the overall story happening in the marvel u...which imo, is keeping sales on flagship books way below where they could be (were they more self contained) because a lot of us just aren't gonna commit to additional books irregardless of quality to read a "full" story.

When you are asking readers to pay 4 dollars a comic, comics should really be more self contained. If only creator owned books got more retailer support, this could be a good time for them to make some strides.

[Reptisaurus!]

Both Cassanova and Fell actually feel longer than most books with a higher page count, so it shouldn't be a surprise they are harder to write.

Yeah, the density of the writing's gotta be a factor here too.

It's got to be much more time consuming to write (and draw!) Watchmen's nine-panel-grid after nine-panel-grid rather than a book that's mostly splash pages.

[Solario]

I get jason's point about storytelling but a dollar for 2 extra pages is too much of a price to pay. It's too much to ask of readers.

It's bad enough readers are forced to buy books not based on quality because they are 'needed' to understand the overall story happening in the marvel u...

I have to say, I disagree - nobody is forced to buy something they don't enjoy. If readers really felt it necessary to understand the larger story in the 616, then they should go read Wikipedia. All the stories published today, while certainly influenced by a larger storyarc, can easily be read without feeling forced to read something that the reader isn't enjoying. It's the collector mentality, the idea that "I don't want to miss out on the details and particulars of the overall story", that motivates readers to buy books they don't "want" to buy. But it's also a determinist mentality, that they don't have a real choice in the matter.


And it's harder to write a 20 page comic because 22 is the norm and the form that writers are "trained" to write in; it's not primarily question of brevity or being concise.


We need to stop measuring our entertainment in how long it takes to digest though. The question isn't "how long was I entertained?", it's "how MUCH was I entertained?"

[chrisgiff]

I get jason's point about storytelling but a dollar for 2 extra pages is too much of a price to pay. It's too much to ask of readers.


From a consumer point of view, it doesn't get much simpler than that. Given the nature of things, a lot of readers can no longer afford to buy as many comics as they used to. Being able to drop the cover price by $1 at the cost of only 2 story pages doesn't seem like big deal when you weigh it against said reader not purchasing the comic at all.

[Nova2814.1]

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread (zombies are still cool, right?), but with the majority of Marvel's output has now being cut down to 20 pages, I wonder if Jason should revisit this topic? His two Marvel ongoing series have now both been cut back to 20 pages, and it's probable that his new books will be as well. And all of those books are at the $4 price point.

Just a suggestion, but I think it would be interesting to look at this again 9, 10 months on, now that it's become more widespread and commonplace.

[Eumenides]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm:


Like I said, I've written two of these 20 pages issues so far, and I'm still struggling with it. The first one I wrote, issue #45, had a lot of problems and had to be re-written. The second one came out much easier, but looking over it now, it almost feels too brief to me. I don't know, I think it's gonna take me a while to get a handle on this.


And I think if you can learn how to write a five-page story, and if you can learn how to write a lot of different five-page stories until you’ve really got the hang of the five- or six-page story, then whatever you’re asked to do in your later career, whether it’s a 24-page comic book or a 12-issues series or a 600-page graphic novel, you’ll have the basic craft and the basic notions of structure already in place. It’s the best way to learn - The Extraordinary Works of Alan Moore, George Khoury.


Go fuck yourself, Alan Moore. (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=30200)

Looks like the 'bitter old man' had something to teach you about compact comic book writing...

[diablo7]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm:







Looks like the 'bitter old man' had something to teach you about compact comic book writing...

He's too busy giving the fu to moore and taking little digs at him to learn anything. But atleast he got practice writing 20 page stories at dc.

[Eumenides]

Who knows, if he keeps writing those tightly-plotted 20-page stories, he may come to be a tenth as good as Moore...

... I doubt it.