Should some Marvel heroes be depowered?

[Uxas]

Generally people agree that most Marvel characters are 'grounded', at least moreso than DC's, and that 'too' powerful characters rarely affect one's enjoyement of a story. When you look at Spider-Man and his villains, you do get the feeling that Peter won't just walk over his adversaries.

There are however a few heroes whose power-levels, IMO, are starting to get out of hand or have already.

Thor- Yes, he's always been powerful, some would argue that he's already been depowered, but I can't help but to notice how he always seems to be the guy to either finish a threat or lead the charge against the most powerful opponents. Oh, the time-stream's collapsing and Galactus is destroying the city. Have at thee! Janet's actually a living bomb, we're all going to die in a minute. No problem, Thor'll just send her into another dimension. The Sentry is going berserk. Thor'll handle it. Sometimes you can't help but to wonder why the other Avengers even bother.
The worst thing is how many people seems to be fine with this. I guarantee you, if you make a rumbles-thread with 'Thor vs X', most people will vote Thor almost by default. I mean, how many times we've heard about the 'Berserker's rage'-thing and strength-doubling belt and whatever. Thank jeebus he doesn't have the Odinforce anymore. I accept the fact that he's a god and he should be powerful, but IMO he should have no business messing with Galactus.

Hulk- He's the strongest one there is. Fine, but when I hear people claiming that he can get so angry, so strong, that his punches will tear the fabric of reality apart, I can't help but to shake my head. Why won't you just make him a reality-warper while you're at it. There should be some kind of limit to what you can do with pure physical force.
It's not the Hulk's strenght that even bothers me. It's his invulnerability. He's not only resistant to pretty much everything, but he regenerates faster than Wolverine. So how do you kill him then? Even Superman has kryptonite and magic to look out for. I've heard that Hulk can even resist molecular/reality manipulation. That just seems like overkill to me.

Wolverine- He's a guy with a metal skeleton, claws and a healing factor. C'mon, even I could kill him.

Iron Man- Ok, he's not that bad, but I just don't see why he should be in the 100-ton range.

Steve Rogers- I've said this a few times before and I'll say it again: he needs to lose to someone. Badly. No, not just a he-lost-due-to-some-small-factor-and-comes-back-later-to-get-payback- kind of defeat. Just a thorough ass-kicking.


So, can you think of heroes(villains too) that should get knocked down a peg or am I just spewing crap?

EDIT- "Depowering" doesn't need to mean removing or completely altering abilities, just keeping consistency on how they're used, or alternatively writers not playing favourites all the time.

[Rahul]

Thor is a God, and there's nothing wrong with his strength level...in fact there is a consistency in his approach. First he holds back and resorts to hammer attacks, and then if the situation becomes more and more dire, he resorts to his godly powers of thunder.

Strength amplified by Rage is a core part of the Hulk, you can't remove that. But I do agree that the regenerative/adaptibility ability makes him too powerful.

Wolverine is fine as he is.

Iron Man : He is the Swiss Army Knife of Superheroes, he works in any condition.

Steve Rogers: He is one of the best, but yes even the best should have their falls.....

[Uxas]

Thor is a God, and there's nothing wrong with his strength level...in fact there is a consistency in his approach. First he holds back and resorts to hammer attacks, and then if the situation becomes more and more dire, he resorts to his godly powers of thunder.

Wolverine is fine as he is.

The word 'depower' might have been a bad choice on my part, I don't think that Wolvie is too powerful, it's just weird how seems to be almost unbeatable.

As for Thor, well, I agree that he should be powerful, but I just think it's lazy how he can counter almost any threat. Why even have the Hulk around if Thor can do everything he can and more?

[Talkie Toaster]

The Hulk doesn't need kryptonite, he's his own kryptonite. You don't see Superman and Clark Kent at constant war with each other like Hulk and Bruce Banner usually are

[Mick Martin]

Hulk- He's the strongest one there is.


I've heard that too.



Fine, but when I hear people claiming that he can get so angry, so strong, that his punches will tear the fabric of reality apart, I can't help but to shake my head.


That's because the Hulk's reality-tearing punches are ripping through fabric of reality to make you shake your head.



Why won't you just make him a reality-warper while you're at it.


Backorder.



It's not the Hulk's strenght that even bothers me.


It sure freaking seemed like it bothered you.



It's his invulnerability. He's not only resistant to pretty much everything, but he regenerates faster than Wolverine.


Yep, it's freaking awesome.



So how do you kill him then?


You don't. Problem solved.


Even Superman has kryptonite and magic to look out for.

Super...huh? Who is that?

[Uxas]

The Hulk doesn't need kryptonite, he's his own kryptonite. You don't see Superman and Clark Kent at constant war with each other like Hulk and Bruce Banner usually are

That's true and all, but when was the last time the Abomination beat him up because Banner and Hulk were having a mental struggle? A divided personality won't necessarily affect the outcome of a fight.

[Skaar2099]

when was the last time the Abomination beat him up because Banner and Hulk were having a mental struggle?

This week, probably, though I haven't been to the comic shop yet >_>

[Talkie Toaster]

That's true and all, but when was the last time the Abomination beat him up because Banner and Hulk were having a mental struggle? A divided personality won't necessarily affect the outcome of a fight.

Well the point is that even though the Hulk may not have any physical weaknesses, that doesn't mean he doesn't have any weaknesses. You have to beat the Hulk with your mind, not your fists.
That's why the Hulk's archenemy is the Leader, a villain who wouldn't be able to punch himself out of a wet paper bag.

And if you really want to defeat the Hulk you just leave him alone and wait for him to destroy himself.

[Kutulu]

Hulk- He's the strongest one there is. Fine, but when I hear people claiming that he can get so angry, so strong, that his punches will tear the fabric of reality apart, I can't help but to shake my head. Why won't you just make him a reality-warper while you're at it. There should be some kind of limit to what you can do with pure physical force.
It's not the Hulk's strenght that even bothers me. It's his invulnerability. He's not only resistant to pretty much everything, but he regenerates faster than Wolverine. So how do you kill him then? Even Superman has kryptonite and magic to look out for. I've heard that Hulk can even resist molecular/reality manipulation. That just seems like overkill to me.


I couldn't disagree more. Hulk by his very definition is madder = stronger, with no limits. That's how it's always been, and that's how it should always be. Someone that if he got mad enough can punch his way through a time storm, walk forward while having reality literally ripped away from him, and collapse dimensions with his thunderclaps.

If anything they make Hulk appear too weak when fighting other characters; instead of getting much stronger, he ends up only getting slightly stronger. Hulk is to Marvel what Superman is to DC; the defining character that can stand up to bat when everybody else has failed and pull out that final last ounce of power to take down something monstrous. When Onslaught had the power to create an entire sun, who was the only one to stand toe to toe with him? Hulk. When the mountain was thrown on the heroes in Secret Wars, who was the only one to hold up the 100 billion tons of force crushing down? Hulk. When the crust of Planet Sakaar was ripping apart, was the one who stood in the molten magma and save the planet? Hulk.

[Uxas]

Well the point is that even though the Hulk may not have any physical weaknesses, that doesn't mean he doesn't have any weaknesses. You have to beat the Hulk with your mind, not your fists.
That's why the Hulk's archenemy is the Leader, a villain who wouldn't be able to punch himself out of a wet paper bag.

I see your point, but the Leader's genius seems to amount to creating robots or... red hulks, so he's really only giving the job of punching to someone else. It'd be cool to see him try attack Hulk's psyche more often. (I really don't know if he's done so in the past.)

[Talkie Toaster]

I see your point, but the Leader's genius seems to amount to creating robots or... red hulks, so he's really only giving the job of punching to someone else. It'd be cool to see him try attack Hulk's psyche more often. (I really don't know if he's done so in the past.)

What about the time the Leader cleverly maneuvered the Hulk in front of a gamma bomb and then detonating it?
As for overcoming the Hulk by making use of the Hulk vs Banner dynamic, Samson has done that a few times with success

[Uxas]

I couldn't disagree more. Hulk by his very definition is madder = stronger, with no limits. That's how it's always been, and that's how it should always be. Someone that if he got mad enough can punch his way through a time storm, walk forward while having reality literally ripped away from him, and collapse dimensions with his thunderclaps.

Well, I do agree with the basic concept of the Hulk, I don't mind him lifting 100 billion tons or whatever. It's just that when the Molecule Man shows up and starts screwing up everything I'd rather see... Dr. Strange conjure up a spell to try and counter his powers instead of the Hulk jumping in and punching stuff until eveything fine.

[Uxas]

What about the time the Leader cleverly maneuvered the Hulk in front of a gamma bomb and then detonating it?
As for overcoming the Hulk by making use of the Hulk vs Banner dynamic, Samson has done that a few times with success

Like I said, I'm not a huge Hulk expert so I'm not aware of all the times he's been beaten like this.

Let's say that he got into a fight with Galactus. I think that he should zero chance of winning, but that's just me. Anyway, Galactus' usual way of dealing with threats is blasting them with some cosmic mojo. So, should he be able to beat the Hulk with such a method, or will Hulk just get madder and madder until he punches Galactus out of existence?

[Mr MajestiK]

The word 'depower' might have been a bad choice on my part, I don't think that Wolvie is too powerful, it's just weird how seems to be almost unbeatable.

As for Thor, well, I agree that he should be powerful, but I just think it's lazy how he can counter almost any threat. Why even have the Hulk around if Thor can do everything he can and more?

Did you miss Siege?

Thor's ass got kicked by the Sentry so no, he doesn't always get to be all powerful.

[Kutulu]

Well, I do agree with the basic concept of the Hulk, I don't mind him lifting 100 billion tons or whatever. It's just that when the Molecule Man shows up and starts screwing up everything I'd rather see... Dr. Strange conjure up a spell to try and counter his powers instead of the Hulk jumping in and punching stuff until eveything fine.

I'll show you a page which explains why Hulk is fine just the way he is.
http://superheroesetc.blogspot.com/2010/12/hulk-is-strongest-one-there-is-why-hulk.html

[Uxas]

Did you miss Siege?

Thor's ass got kicked by the Sentry so no, he doesn't always get to be all powerful.

Yeah, he did lose to the Void, everyone did (then they got resurrected), but it was still Thor who gave the final blow. He also fought the Sentry on his own, because everyone else would've just gotten on his way. I just wish it wasn't him who always takes on the biggest bad guys. (Though Siege was about the invasion of Asgard, so I can accept it in this context)

Besides, if you've been to some of the Sentry threads, you know how quite a lot of people still think Thor should('ve) pwn(ed) Bob.

[XPac]

I'd probably depower Blue Marvel a bit (unless he's used more in the cosmic scene, in which case he's just fine). If he's going to have the Green Lantern powerset in addition to the Superman power set, I might lower his strength a notch below the Moon splitting level he's currently at.

And I might give Thor some limitations... specific conditions where he can use his higher end stuff like the god blast.

[Uxas]

And I might give Thor some limitations... specific conditions where he can use his higher end stuff like the god blast.

Yeah, I don't mind Thor having a lot of powers but if you don't establish some kind of rules to how and when his powers work you'll just end up with an omnipotent deus ex machina. *cough*Sentry*cough*

As for Blue Marvel... well, I'd probably limit his powers if he actually played any kind of a role in the MU.

[Kyle_Ion]

I do not like the idea that every hero out there should be de-powered or have a limitation. The hero's are fine just the way they are, Hulk the madder he gets the stronger he gets, Iron Man he is the jack of all trades he has iron man suits that he uses when the situation calls for it. I don't like Wolverine but I think he is fine as he is, Thor is a god who also shouldn't be limited to his powers just to be used through limitations... specific conditions.

The heroes should be left alone and all the villians get a power boost

[Uxas]

The heroes should be left alone and all the villians get a power boost

I could roll with that... it doesn't really matter how powerful the hero is as long as there is some sense of danger.

[Mr MajestiK]

Yeah, he did lose to the Void, everyone did (then they got resurrected), but it was still Thor who gave the final blow. He also fought the Sentry on his own, because everyone else would've just gotten on his way. I just wish it wasn't him who always takes on the biggest bad guys. (Though Siege was about the invasion of Asgard, so I can accept it in this context)

Besides, if you've been to some of the Sentry threads, you know how quite a lot of people still think Thor should('ve) pwn(ed) Bob.

In retrospect, the Sentry was a whole different kind've weird.

I actually miss the unpredictability of his appearances in the books he appeared in.

A mortal man with godlike powers run amok.

The Sentry needs to come back.

[Uxas]

The Sentry needs to come back.

Well, I don't need him to come back, but I think his character was wasted in the end. We're probably in the minority.

[Fast]

I'll show you a page which explains why Hulk is fine just the way he is.
http://superheroesetc.blogspot.com/2010/12/hulk-is-strongest-one-there-is-why-hulk.html

That was awful the Hulk wins...just because?

As for the OP I don't mind powerful characters I just want them to be consistant, but with so many years of comics some characters are going to have wide ranges of feats for every Wolverine regenerating from being only a skeleton theres a Thanos being arrested by cops.

[StoneGold]

Wolverine- He's a guy with a metal skeleton, claws and a healing factor. C'mon, even I could kill him.


You mean the guy who is currently dead and in hell?


Steve Rogers- I've said this a few times before and I'll say it again: he needs to lose to someone. Badly. No, not just a he-lost-due-to-some-small-factor-and-comes-back-later-to-get-payback- kind of defeat. Just a thorough ass-kicking.You mean the guy who spent the better part of the last couple years dead?

[XPac]

I do not like the idea that every hero out there should be de-powered or have a limitation. The hero's are fine just the way they are, Hulk the madder he gets the stronger he gets, Iron Man he is the jack of all trades he has iron man suits that he uses when the situation calls for it. I don't like Wolverine but I think he is fine as he is, Thor is a god who also shouldn't be limited to his powers just to be used through limitations... specific conditions.

The heroes should be left alone and all the villians get a power boost

Giving the villains a power boost is a pretty good idea.

Also, I think it's nice when the uber powerful villains actually STAY villains. Juggernaut is being reformed again, while Red Hulk is becoming and Avenger and it looks like King Hyperion might be joining the TBolts. Those are a few top tier villain power houses that are some of the few characters who can go toe to toe with a Hulk or a Thor.

The hero/villian imbalance isn't quite as bad as it is in DC, but it's starting to move in that direction.

[Uxas]

You mean the guy who is currently dead and in hell?

Progress.:cool: How did he die exactly? Anyway, even if he's dead now he's still been depicted as a tad too immortal for a guy who could be killed by sticking a pen through his eye.


You mean the guy who spent the better part of the last couple years dead?

Ok, adding Steve was sort of a joke on my part, it's not that he's actually powerful just that he never loses in a fight. But still, he didn't die in a fight or anything, he just got shot.

[XPac]

Well, I don't need him to come back, but I think his character was wasted in the end. We're probably in the minority.

I don't think Sentry should come back anytime soon... give his death a bit of a chance to breath.

But I definately think he should come back, and frankly I definately think he will.

He's a character that wasn't always used well, but when he was I felt he was interesting.

[Uxas]

Giving the villains a power boost is a pretty good idea.

Also, I think it's nice when the uber powerful villains actually STAY villains. Juggernaut is being reformed again, while Red Hulk is becoming and Avenger and it looks like King Hyperion might be joining the TBolts. Those are a few top tier villain power houses that are some of the few characters who can go toe to toe with a Hulk or a Thor.

Agreed. Marvel should balance this by turning Simon Williams into a villain. :cool:

I liked how Bendis gave the U-Foes such a good showing in Siege and Marvel should definitely push these guys, I think they have potential to be major bad guys.

[Tracks]

You mean the guy who is currently dead and in hell?You mean the guy who spent the better part of the last couple years dead?

I mean they're both characters who are usually depicted as unbeatable, moreso Wolverine, and when they do lose, writers usually attach an abstract reason. Im sure there are plenty of people who'd like to see Cap or Wolverine beaten in a straight one-on-one.

[StoneGold]

I mean they're both characters who are usually depicted as unbeatable, moreso Wolverine, and when they do lose, writers usually attach an abstract reason. Im sure there are plenty of people who'd like to see Cap or Wolverine beaten in a straight one-on-one.

Name me a character with a book who loses more than they win. Or at least don't win in the final chapter?

[Uxas]

Name me a character with a book who loses more than they win. Or at least don't win in the final chapter?

Heroes win. Villains lose. That's fine.

However, if you look at Spider-Man, he's been beaten up, lost or struggled far more than Steve. You feel like he might actually get hurt sometimes. I can't even remember the last time I felt Steve had to try to win a fight.

[drownedbyimmolation]

That was awful the Hulk wins...just because?

As for the OP I don't mind powerful characters I just want them to be consistant, but with so many years of comics some characters are going to have wide ranges of feats for every Wolverine regenerating from being only a skeleton theres a Thanos being arrested by cops.


Agreed, first it involved many generalizations, that ring true to an extent sure lol, then the writer tries to distance himself from that type of thinking to then use the exact type of thinking common with the people he criticizes to establish his stance.

Clearly as well his piece of writing would make sense if the character talked about was Squirrel Girl too.


Interesting thread as well. Generally I am more a fan of consistency and the subsequent effects it can have on stories thereafter, but I am not against or inclined towards upgrades and downgrades.

[StoneGold]

Heroes win. Villains lose. That's fine.

However, if you look at Spider-Man, he's been beaten up, lost or struggled far more than Steve. You feel like he might actually get hurt sometimes. I can't even remember the last time I felt Steve had to try to win a fight.

Super Soldier miniseries, has his ass kicked, depowered, strapped to a table.

Beyond that, he hasn't really been in a position to get his ass kicked, not having a regular solo series and all since Civil War ended.

[Uxas]

Super Soldier miniseries, has his ass kicked, depowered, strapped to a table.

Meh, Steve is like James Bond to me. He's going to get tied to a chair with a bomb ticking away just next to him, but no matter what, you know that he's going to get out and kick the bad guys ass. You just know it. With some other heroes there's at least an illusion of that he/she might not make it.

But I kind of hate Steve nowadays, so I'm might be biased.

[Tracks]

Name me a character with a book who loses more than they win. Or at least don't win in the final chapter?

when's the last time wolverine or cap really took an honest loss? no plot devices or anything?

[StoneGold]

Meh, Steve is like James Bond to me. He's going to get tied to a chair with a bomb ticking away just next to him, but no matter what, you know that he's going to get out and kick the bad guys ass. You just know it. With some other heroes there's at least an illusion of that he/she might not make it.

But I kind of hate Steve nowadays, so I'm might be biased.

Bullcrap. Again, name me another hero who you don't know isn't going to get out of the deathtrap? The only ones I can think of are ones with books slotted for cancellation.

[StoneGold]

when's the last time wolverine or cap really took an honest loss? no plot devices or anything?

Again, one just got done being dead, the other is dead. Right now. Got a demon in his corpse killing his friends.

[Uxas]

Bullcrap. Again, name me another hero who you don't know isn't going to get out of the deathtrap? The only ones I can think of are ones with books slotted for cancellation.

Admittedly that wasn't the best example, but like I said it's about the sense of danger. I never, ever get anything like that with Steve. It's like he doesn't even have to try to survive. He just does. Maybe that's just me.

...and like Tracks said, I don't recall Steve or Wolvie losing in a one-on-one fistfight to anyone in a long time.

[Uxas]

People say that Sentry was nothing but a lazy deus ex machina, nigh-omnipotent with loosely defined powers and that was one of the reasons why he sucked.

But isn't that more or less what Thor is? He's infinitely strong, he can pretty much do anything with Mjolnir when the story demands it and it's not like 'he's a god' defines his powers any moreso than Sentrys 'he's the angel of death' does.

[StoneGold]

Admittedly that wasn't the best example, but like I said it's about the sense of danger. I never, ever get anything like that with Steve. It's like he doesn't even have to try to survive. He just does. Maybe that's just me.

...and like Tracks said, I don't recall Steve or Wolvie losing in a one-on-one fistfight to anyone in a long time.

One of the last times he was in an honest to god one on one fistfight, Iron Man turned his face into hamburger.

http://dailypop.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/captain-america_civil-war.gif

He really hasn't had much of one since resurrecting. Which happens when you don't have your own book.

[StoneGold]

People say that Sentry was nothing but a lazy deus ex machina, nigh-omnipotent with loosely defined powers and that was one of the reasons why he sucked.

But isn't that more or less what Thor is? He's infinitely strong, he can pretty much do anything with Mjolnir when the story demands it and it's not like 'he's a god' defines his powers any moreso than Sentrys 'he's the angel of death' does.

It's also a complete misunderstanding of the term deus ex machina. Which doesn't mean super strong plot device, it means plot device out of nowhere. Without the out of nowhere element, it's just a plot device.

[Uxas]

It's also a complete misunderstanding of the term deus ex machina. Which doesn't mean super strong plot device, it means plot device out of nowhere. Without the out of nowhere element, it's just a plot device.

You could(maybe) describe Sentry pwning the Molecule Man like that, since it literally comes out of nowhere. So he controls molecules now. Huh. Ok.

But I'd suggest focusing on the actual question.

[Wellman]

I agree Steve and Wolverine do need to have more one on one beat downs and be forced to earn wins. That being said, it isn't a matter of depowering them, it is just a matter of writers stop playing favorites to the main characters in their books and treat them like some of the greats treated Spiderman and Daredevil in their own books.

[StoneGold]

I agree Steve and Wolverine do need to have more one on one beat downs and be forced to earn wins. That being said, it isn't a matter of depowering them, it is just a matter of writers stop playing favorites to the main characters in their books and treat them like some of the greats treated Spiderman and Daredevil in their own books.

Or people actually reading the books, rather than just posting off of emotion.

Cuz it seems to me Logan took a few losses to Daken pretty recently before eventually getting on the upside of that battle.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3320/3582777342_f3e8cb9469.jpg

You know what was a pretty epic Logan loss? Enemy of the State. Logan gets killed, resurrected as a villain, then spends most of the rest of the book getting his ass kicked by every other superhero before just barely teleporting away at the end.


Ooo, or when the Puinsher shot off his face, blew off his nuts, then buried him in concrete.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1156/973728532_cdad630e20_o.jpg

[StoneGold]

You could(maybe) describe Sentry pwning the Molecule Man like that, since it literally comes out of nowhere. So he controls molecules now. Huh. Ok.

But I'd suggest focusing on the actual question.

Yeah, except the whole point of the arc was finding out what the Sentry could do. When the point of the arc is figuring out what your limits are, finding out there are no limits is not deus ex machina. It's an organic part of the plot. Whether or not it is good writing may or may not be another story completely, but deus ex machina has an actual meaning beyond "plot device I don't like."

[LXDTS]

I'm just throwing it out there, I'm not a fan of Thor at all. The character, to me, is not creative, used as an end all for just about any major catastrophe, and doesn't have a real human side (unless you count the human whose body he shares). Look at Ares and Hercules, they have human qualities, they are down to earth and relate with the puny humans. Hell Ares has a son and he cares for his son like no other.
Thor, on the other hand, turns into Donald Blake to show his human side... and seriously why is he the only god that is tied to a human. Ugh, nevermind, I just don't get why people actually like a character based on Norse mythology who can win any battle no matter who it is (especially when they can't even pronounce Mjolnir).

The thing that killed me during World War Hulk, when Hulk was unstoppable in Manhattan everyone was like "wait for Thor" like he's Superman coming to save the f'n day. I don't think he should be or deserves to be as powerful as he's depicted.

[The Thunderbird]

Jean Grey. The Phoenix dynamic has taken over her character and turned her into a joke. She should be seperated from the Phoenix after she is brought back, at least for a few years and even then her bonds to the Phoenix should only be temporary.

[Uxas]

... but deus ex machina has an actual meaning beyond "plot device I don't like."

Ok, so is Thor more or less like a <plot device> like Sentry or not?


IThe thing that killed me during World War Hulk, when Hulk was unstoppable in Manhattan everyone was like "wait for Thor" like he's Superman coming to save the f'n day. I don't think he should be or deserves to be as powerful as he's depicted.

Yeah, I think it's a tad sad that he's expected to save the day. Because that's his power, right?

[StoneGold]

Ok, so is Thor more or less like a <plot device> like Sentry or not?

Which again, is a misunderstanding of the term.


Thor can be a deus ex machina. It's been forever since I've read the story, so I could be wrong on this, but I seem to recall him being used as one in Busiek's Ultron story (and since I used his name, he can now show up and tell me I was wrong). Thor just sort of shows up at the end to have words with Ultron and save the day. You want a great example of one? The sea captain who randomly shows up with the Maltese Falcon in the book/movie of the same name.

It's when the thing that is needed to fix the plot shows up out of nowhere. Now, you could say that Sentry's moment of suicidal clarity and Thor's sudden ability to kill him were something of a deus ex machina, although Sentry's lack of sanity had been a going concern, his shift from Void was a little out of nowhere. But that's less the character, more the plot device.

[StoneGold]

I'm just throwing it out there, I'm not a fan of Thor at all. The character, to me, is not creative, used as an end all for just about any major catastrophe, and doesn't have a real human side (unless you count the human whose body he shares). Look at Ares and Hercules, they have human qualities, they are down to earth and relate with the puny humans. Hell Ares has a son and he cares for his son like no other.
Thor, on the other hand, turns into Donald Blake to show his human side... and seriously why is he the only god that is tied to a human. Ugh, nevermind, I just don't get why people actually like a character based on Norse mythology who can win any battle no matter who it is (especially when they can't even pronounce Mjolnir).

The thing that killed me during World War Hulk, when Hulk was unstoppable in Manhattan everyone was like "wait for Thor" like he's Superman coming to save the f'n day. I don't think he should be or deserves to be as powerful as he's depicted.

Yeah, you're totally making World War Hulk part up. Thor was still dead from Ragnarok when that happened. Unless you're talking about World War Hulks. In which case you're still wrong, because he got turned into a Hulk there. Speaking of Hulks, remember when he got beat up by Red Hulk? Yeah, never loses, that Thor. Hey, how about that time he got exiled for murdering his grandfather? Or the multiple times he's been dead? I can think of at least three off the top of my head.

[Uxas]

Yeah, you're totally making World War Hulk part up. Thor was still dead from Ragnarok when that happened.

I believe he was just saying how people expected Thor to save the day. He didn't, but that's what some people thought at the time.

[Tracks]

Again, one just got done being dead, the other is dead. Right now. Got a demon in his corpse killing his friends.

captain america was "beaten" by wearing power dampeners and jumping into the path of a bullet he saw coming which sent him through time

Wolverine had his body stolen by some satanic cult.

hardly what would call getting beat straight up with no plot devices.

[StoneGold]

I believe he was just saying how people expected Thor to save the day. He didn't, but that's what some people thought at the time.

If you're talking about in the story, then no, you're wrong, because he was dead and no one ever brought it up. If you're talking about people reading the story, then he's still wrong, because at best it was a small number of people, which isn't exactly "everyone." Hell, there were some people figuring that would be Cap's moment of return. It ended up just being what the plot had already set up, a combination of Sentry and Bruce beating himself.

[Uxas]

Hell, there were some people figuring that would be Cap's moment of return. It ended up just being what the plot had already set up, a combination of Sentry and Bruce beating himself.

That would've been so lame that I probably would've left books Marvel forever.

[StoneGold]

captain america was "beaten" by wearing power dampeners and jumping into the path of a bullet he saw coming which sent him through time

Wolverine had his body stolen by some satanic cult.

hardly what would call getting beat straight up with no plot devices.

Which ignores a) all the other examples I've given, and b) the whole thing about name a main character who gets his butt whupped without some kind of asterisk.

And really, everyone loses because of a plot device. Without a plot device, you just have guys talking to each other. Without plot device, there is no plot.

And anyway, you're wrong about how Cap died. Skull brainwashed his lover to shoot him point blank. For a master manipulator like the Skull, that's how you do a victory.

[Mechano]

If you're talking about in the story, then no, you're wrong, because he was dead and no one ever brought it up. If you're talking about people reading the story, then he's still wrong, because at best it was a small number of people, which isn't exactly "everyone." Hell, there were some people figuring that would be Cap's moment of return. It ended up just being what the plot had already set up, a combination of Sentry and Bruce beating himself.


the Leader and Modok's "Red Ray of Death" is what put the Hulk down for the count...not Sentry or Bruce himself.

[StoneGold]

That would've been so lame that I probably would've left books Marvel forever.

Wonderful, but it didn't happen, so it doesn't matter. Just like Thor didn't show up in World War Hulk, so it doesn't matter. If you're going to start basing your opinion on characters and stories on internet rumors...

Well, we're not allowed to talk about posters, just comics. But you'd be doing it wrong.

[StoneGold]

the Leader and Modok's "Red Ray of Death" is what put the Hulk down for the count...not Sentry or Bruce himself.

They were Stark's Leader and MODOK just swiped the energy. And that wasn't revealed until years later. But much like Sentry going kablooie in Siege, the satellites only worked because Bruce wanted them to at that point, and because of the whole battle with Bob.

[Tracks]

Which ignores a) all the other examples I've given, and b) the whole thing about name a main character who gets his butt whupped without some kind of asterisk.

And really, everyone loses because of a plot device. Without a plot device, you just have guys talking to each other. Without plot device, there is no plot.

And anyway, you're wrong about how Cap died. Skull brainwashed his lover to shoot him point blank. For a master manipulator like the Skull, that's how you do a victory.
Punisher was killed straight up b Daken, Daken was beaten straight up by Frankencastle, Moon Knight has beaten Deadpool straight up, there are plenty of examples of main characters just getting beat by others with no plot devices except usually in the cases of Wolverine or Cap, I can think of tow, I'm just saying that I can see why fans would want it to happen more often.

[The_Greatest_Username]

Jean Grey. The Phoenix dynamic has taken over her character and turned her into a joke. She should be seperated from the Phoenix after she is brought back, at least for a few years and even then her bonds to the Phoenix should only be temporary.


I agree...her power levels have gotten out of hand

[Mechano]

They were Stark's Leader and MODOK just swiped the energy. And that wasn't revealed until years later. But much like Sentry going kablooie in Siege, the satellites only worked because Bruce wanted them to at that point, and because of the whole battle with Bob.

I could see where possibly Bruce did give into the rays, but the Sentry really had nothing to do with him laying down. He had went full World Breaker mode AFTER settling with Sentry.

[Uxas]

Wonderful, but it didn't happen, so it doesn't matter. Just like Thor didn't show up in World War Hulk, so it doesn't matter. If you're going to start basing your opinion on characters and stories on internet rumors...

Well, we're not allowed to talk about posters, just comics. But you'd be doing it wrong.

:confused: I'm not sure what your problem is. I just said that Cap saving the day in WHH would've been totally lame. I wasn't making a point or anything.

Whatever man.

[seekquaze]

Thor- Yes, he's always been powerful, some would argue that he's already been depowered, but I can't help but to notice how he always seems to be the guy to either finish a threat or lead the charge against the most powerful opponents. Oh, the time-stream's collapsing and Galactus is destroying the city. Have at thee! Janet's actually a living bomb, we're all going to die in a minute. No problem, Thor'll just send her into another dimension. The Sentry is going berserk. Thor'll handle it. Sometimes you can't help but to wonder why the other Avengers even bother.


I agree Thor's powers can sometimes be a problem. Why have him fight bank robbers when he battles cosmic armadas? That is why Hercules often works better as an Avenger character. However, I don't think Thor's power is a problem. He is still vulnerable enough to not be invincible. His best stories typically involve outer space or other dimensions where he faces beings on his level and can really unleash. Avengers stories with him only really work if you have some major threat for him to fight while the others to their thing. I agree he shouldn't be hanging with Galactus and most recent writers have him be that way like what Bendis did recently. If it was him along with Cap's Quarky Quartet it would be more difficult.

As to why people think he can win so many fights is due to his powers and he if often compared to a being like the Hulk. However, I do agree he shouldn't be able to do anything like the Sentry. At least before Fraction's run Thor's powers had pretty much been agreed upon unlike once upon a time where he could do nearly anything.


Hulk-

It's not the Hulk's strenght that even bothers me. It's his invulnerability. He's not only resistant to pretty much everything, but he regenerates faster than Wolverine. So how do you kill him then? Even Superman has kryptonite and magic to look out for. I've heard that Hulk can even resist molecular/reality manipulation. That just seems like overkill to me.

In regards to the Hulk I agree about the healing factor. If he had invulnerability, but healed slowly that would be one thing. Characters like that can be defeated, but the healing factor is ridiculous. I've heard Hulk fans seriously claim he could regrow his head if it was cut off. Loeb had to turn the healing factor off. His last couple of battles have been boring because he just heals from whatever his enemy throws at him. I agree his healing factor needs to be toned down.



Wolverine- He's a guy with a metal skeleton, claws and a healing factor. C'mon, even I could kill him.



I don't know about the current storyline, but i know the healing factor needs to be toned down if it requires a magical blade to kill you for a character like him. Pak in one story had to ignore Wolverine's healing factor just to build suspense when otherwise it would have done nothing.

[QUOTE=Uxas;12301911]
Iron Man- Ok, he's not that bad, but I just don't see why he should be in the 100-ton range.

Is Iron Man even depicted that strong? I would agree though. 70 ton makes more sense to me.



Some characters it is just writing them in the right enviroment. Others to me there is something wrong with them.

[LXDTS]

Yeah, you're totally making World War Hulk part up. Thor was still dead from Ragnarok when that happened. Unless you're talking about World War Hulks. In which case you're still wrong, because he got turned into a Hulk there. Speaking of Hulks, remember when he got beat up by Red Hulk? Yeah, never loses, that Thor. Hey, how about that time he got exiled for murdering his grandfather? Or the multiple times he's been dead? I can think of at least three off the top of my head.

Didn't he recently beat the crap outta Rulk?

Dude seriously read the ties ins to WWH I own them, almost all. There are mentions of how people want Thor to show up and save the day.

And speaking of the multiple times he's been dead... you'd think he'd learn his lesson after the first two or so times. What I'm saying is if Thor can be an end all for people why do we need the Avengers in the first place, just let Thor protect the world. Still not sold on him, never have been and it would take a hell of a lot to get me to be. I liked the Sentry more.

[seekquaze]

And speaking of the multiple times he's been dead... you'd think he'd learn his lesson after the first two or so times. What I'm saying is if Thor can be an end all for people why do we need the Avengers in the first place, just let Thor protect the world. Still not sold on him, never have been and it would take a hell of a lot to get me to be. I liked the Sentry more.

The Avengers are needed for three reasons:

1. Thor spends half his time in outer space or other dimensions. He is not always around nor can he be everywhere at once.

2. There are some problems Thor for all his power cannot solve. He is very ignorant on many aspects of science.

3. There are quite a few threats out there as big as or bigger than Thor since he has limits. If he is busy battling one of them and worn down lesser threats can take him out.

[MTL76]

Punisher was killed straight up b Daken, Daken was beaten straight up by Frankencastle, Moon Knight has beaten Deadpool straight up, there are plenty of examples of main characters just getting beat by others with no plot devices except usually in the cases of Wolverine or Cap, I can think of tow, I'm just saying that I can see why fans would want it to happen more often.

In Frank Miller's epic Wolverine mini, Logan gets his butt kicked by an old man with a sword. That was back in the day, though.

[goonstar]

Punisher was killed straight up b Daken, Daken was beaten straight up by Frankencastle, Moon Knight has beaten Deadpool straight up, there are plenty of examples of main characters just getting beat by others with no plot devices except usually in the cases of Wolverine or Cap, I can think of tow, I'm just saying that I can see why fans would want it to happen more often.

Speaking of Deadpool, I've been reading lots of Wolverine lately and his record with DP is actually pretty spotty. He's got a loss or two, lots of stalemates, and no outright wins in their encounters as far as i know. In one particular example Wade made short work of Logan. In Wolverine's own book, no less. These two are pretty much equals whenever they meet. After getting to know more about the character i really don't have a problem with the way he's been portrayed.

And i wouldn't say Moon Knight straight up beat Deadpool. The fight didn't even happen on panel, and Moon Knight really couldn't afford to lose the fight at that point in his own book.

[babybro]

Um, how about no. As a person who personal favorite our powerful characters, the characters you mention are just fine. The thing people has to remember is that not every character is meant for everybody. I don't like peak human characters or slightly stronger, but I'm not going to go around asking for someone to give black panther powers, why? Because he's tailored towards a specific demographic and audience.

So unless they want to alienate readers and have the readers who enjoy powerful characters only read DC, it would be a good ideal for them to keep the power levels where they have. That way I can read about the elite characters I like Thor, Hulk, Blue Marvel, and etc doing their thing.

[Jason Abbadon]

I don't think Sentry should come back anytime soon... give his death a bit of a chance to breath.

But I definately think he should come back, and frankly I definately think he will.

He's a character that wasn't always used well, but when he was I felt he was interesting.
They should hint that he's not dead (again) by making everyone in the MU except the Avengers present at his death (Thor Iron Man, etc.) suddenly forget that he ever existed (again).


That would sure creep out those heroes!

[Rhyvurg]

Yeah, Thor and Rulk went at it, and Ross gave Thor a respectable smackdown in round one. But then Thor came back and utterly devastated him. Why? The same reason Thor slugs it out with Hulk in one issue and then outfights more skilled enemies in the next. Pride. Thor's pride makes him want to beat the enemy at their own game, so when he fights a brute, he fights like a brute, even though he's a highly trained and experienced fighter. Rulk was doing something called the Worf Effect (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect), where a new character beats up on an established badass to gain some quick badass cred themselves. Like when Rulk killed Silver Surfer. Although this was Surfer right after his empowerment, due to some time manipulation on Collector and Grandmaster's part. But, he's not stomping all over everyone anymore, Marvel stopped making people job to him.

As for the OP's picks:

Thor: I don't think he's overpowered, I can name like 5 other heroes who could take him, not to mention villains.

Hulk: I don't know about regen complaints, serious damage does put him down for at least a little while. Juggs and Wolverine both have better regen anyway.

Wolverine: Seeing as how getting killed will actually kill him now (no more getting blasted to a skeleton and getting better) I think he's right where he needs to be.

Iron Man: I agree with this one. Tony's a tech guy who shoots stuff with fancy ray guns, he's not really the brick type.

Steve: He actually has been downgraded, with the loss of the shield and (according to the official handbooks) a loss of fighting skill (not sure how that happened...) his best weapon is now his mind, not facepunching.

[Uxas]

Um, how about no. As a person who personal favorite our powerful characters, the characters you mention are just fine. The thing people has to remember is that not every character is meant for everybody. I don't like peak human characters or slightly stronger, but I'm not going to go around asking for someone to give black panther powers, why? Because he's tailored towards a specific demographic and audience.

The thing is, giving Panther powers would only make the stories he's in boring, because instead of relying on his with or skill he'd be just punching his way out of problems. I don't want Hulk depowered because I 'don't like' powerful characters, it's just that it's hard to get invested in his stories if he can achieve anything just by getting mad enough.

This could be solved by making their villains even stronger, their problems even grander. If you put up a 'Thor vs X' thread I don't want to see people saying that Thor wins by default, there should always exist the possibility of him losing.

Somehow I'm reminded of Siege, where Thor was knocked out when the U-Foes, Iron Patriot and other ganged up on him. I liked that, that's what I want to see every now and then. Unsurprisingly though, there were still a lot of people who couldn't accept Thor getting beaten.

[Kutulu]

I don't think Sentry should come back anytime soon... give his death a bit of a chance to breath.

But I definately think he should come back, and frankly I definately think he will.

He's a character that wasn't always used well, but when he was I felt he was interesting.

Agreed - Marvel just needs to find a good writer for him. I'm thinking someone on the caliber of Neil Gaiman.

[Wellman]

Or people actually reading the books, rather than just posting off of emotion.

Cuz it seems to me Logan took a few losses to Daken pretty recently before eventually getting on the upside of that battle.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3320/3582777342_f3e8cb9469.jpg

You know what was a pretty epic Logan loss? Enemy of the State. Logan gets killed, resurrected as a villain, then spends most of the rest of the book getting his ass kicked by every other superhero before just barely teleporting away at the end.


Ooo, or when the Puinsher shot off his face, blew off his nuts, then buried him in concrete.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1156/973728532_cdad630e20_o.jpg

Enemy of the State happened how many years ago? Most of the time Logan just plows through his opponents or heals himself back up after a temporary defeat. It has been rare he gets handed a straight up hard earned defeat.

Also, isn't that Punisher from Ennis' Marvel Knights run where they made jokes of him beating up Wolverine, Daredevil and Spiderman, until Marvel stopped trying to force him into crossovers and let him tell his own Punisher stories on the Marvel MAX imprint?

[StoneGold]

Enemy of the State happened how many years ago? Most of the time Logan just plows through his opponents or heals himself back up after a temporary defeat. It has been rare he gets handed a straight up hard earned defeat.

About five. Which in modern comic publishing, isn't that long a time ago. You can also watch him get beat around for the better part of Old Man Logan, which was like a year ago. And then there are the other examples I gave.


Also, isn't that Punisher from Ennis' Marvel Knights run where they made jokes of him beating up Wolverine, Daredevil and Spiderman, until Marvel stopped trying to force him into crossovers and let him tell his own Punisher stories on the Marvel MAX imprint?

No, mostly because the MK Punisher book never was involved in a crossover. And Frank had been humiliating other heroes since he and Spidey "had a team-up" against the Russian. I'm pretty sure where ever you read that this was some kind of Ennis rebellion against crossovers, they were making that up.

[babybro]

The thing is, giving Panther powers would only make the stories he's in boring, because instead of relying on his with or skill he'd be just punching his way out of problems. I don't want Hulk depowered because I 'don't like' powerful characters, it's just that it's hard to get invested in his stories if he can achieve anything just by getting mad enough.

This could be solved by making their villains even stronger, their problems even grander. If you put up a 'Thor vs X' thread I don't want to see people saying that Thor wins by default, there should always exist the possibility of him losing.

Somehow I'm reminded of Siege, where Thor was knocked out when the U-Foes, Iron Patriot and other ganged up on him. I liked that, that's what I want to see every now and then. Unsurprisingly though, there were still a lot of people who couldn't accept Thor getting beaten.


But again, this is all your opinion. For "You", it would make him boring, for me personally, it would be much more entertaining. You prefer characters to use their wits and charms to get out of things, I prefer heroes who power their way out. If I want to read about people who are peak humans, I wouldn't read comics, I'd read the newspaper. Comics for me is fantasy, not complete fantasy but up there. And a person who can lift a skyscraper
is much more interesting for me than someone who is barely above the average joe walking across the street. Sure they have their wits, intelligence, and etc. to get out of things, but that's really no different than what goes on currently right now irl.

And again, it's you that have problem investing into really powerful characters if they can get their way out of it. But again, this is your opinion. I love the fact that he can rely on getting as strong as he can to get the job done because than for me, it's always a wonder as to how strong will he really get. I'm completely invested into hulk stories and the hulk is my second most favorite book being published by marvel only behind new avengers.

With that said, while you want villians to be stronger, I want heroes to be stronger. You find it boring that heroes can power their way out of anything, I find it boring when heroes are the underdogs. One thing I've been claiming for a while now is a good ole beatdown of a hero just pounding a villian from the beginning of the issue to the end. So again,
it's just different viewpoints. With that being establishes, this still goes back to my original point. Each hero is not meant for everybody. A character to your liking might be the thing, someone whose strong but not REALLY strong. Therefore, you still have your underdog taste that you go for with a
strong character. But it's quite clear that thor and the hulk aren't meant for your taste, they are meant for those like mine, those who uses their powers and pound away with punches that can level a city block. Not everything has to fit to your taste. Again, I'm not asking for BP to be
given powers because I find peak human characters boring. Because
I know he's not meant for me.

This reminds me of the brother voodoo book that came out. I decided to give a try for the first issue and dropped it the first issue. The reason being is that he lost to doom on his issue debut. Many others want the whole struggle and underdog ordeal with a character. But one way for me to clearly turn me off from a hero is to have him lose a fight in his debut, against anybody. You want him to lose? Save it till the third, fourth issue to give him more credibility. At least in my eyes.


That's why Superman is my favorite hero in comics. He's one of the best in every area, yet he still uses his power for good. To be honest, one thing I like DC more than Marvel
is their power levels. But the reason I still read marvel is because.

1) They have a much better display of diversity than DC.

2) You still have some powerful characters, even though they aren't as numerous as DC's.

[Uxas]

But again, this is all your opinion. For "You", it would make him boring, for me personally, it would be much more entertaining. You prefer characters to use their wits and charms to get out of things, I prefer heroes who power their way out. If I want to read about people who are peak humans, I wouldn't read comics, I'd read the newspaper. Comics for me is fantasy, not complete fantasy but up there. And a person who can lift a skyscraper
is much more interesting for me than someone who is barely above the average joe walking across the street. Sure they have their wits, intelligence, and etc. to get out of things, but that's really no different than what goes on currently right now irl.

And again, it's you that have problem investing into really powerful characters if they can get their way out of it.

I guess I could've been clearer but you still kind of missed my point. I don't prefer 'street level' characters. I love Superman, the New Gods, Flash, Thor, Silver Surfer etc. They're all pretty much godly beings. The issue is not that some characters are just too powerful for my tastes.

It's just there's no real drama involved in a battle between the Hulk and Abomination because Hulk can and will just get stronger and stronger until he can punch out Eternity if he feels like it. Hulk might as well be omnipotent and unless he's facing another omnipotent character there is no real danger.

For all the crap people give the Flash for being too powerful, he does have at least a couple of villains who can take him out any given time. Superman has clear weaknesses that his enemies can exploit.

[Mick Martin]

Agreed, first it involved many generalizations, that ring true to an extent sure lol, then the writer tries to distance himself from that type of thinking to then use the exact type of thinking common with the people he criticizes to establish his stance.

Clearly as well his piece of writing would make sense if the character talked about was Squirrel Girl too.



I regret that a lot of people who read my column apparently didn't get the tongue-in-cheek aspect of it. This is probably my fault as the writer.

The column was meant as a partly-ironic love letter to the Hulk. As I write in the beginning, the column was the first of a regular weekly series of posts dedicated to the Hulk. As such, I thought a "HULK IS BETTER THAN EVERYONE" column to kick things off was appropriate.

Much of what some of you imply was hypocrisy was very much intended. I am well aware, for example, that in spite of the fact that I start off by bashing the very concept of versus debates, the entire freaking thing is a versus debate argument. I thought that by posting such matches as "Uncle Sam and the Freedom Fighters vs. Neil Young and Crazy Horse" and "Power Man and Iron Fist vs. the survivors of Hiroshima," readers would get that not everything I wrote was meant to be taken seriously.

However, as I wrote above, it was meant to be partly ironic, but I couldn't be more serious about feeling that the character's ability to defeat everything and everyone in his path is part of the whole point of the character. I do not think you can say that about just any other superhero character. Sure, all heroes in comics eventually beat the bad guy, but what I was talking about the specific manner in which the Hulk does it. While there are notable exceptions - most memorably during Peter David's run on the comic - the Hulk's victories aren't won by cunning or by learning an important lesson about himself that somehow also applies to fighting the Rhino or by reaching into his soul to stoke the flames of his indomitable human spirit blah blah blah. He wins because that's what he does.

[babybro]

I guess I could've been clearer but you still kind of missed my point. I don't prefer 'street level' characters. I love Superman, the New Gods, Flash, Thor, Silver Surfer etc. They're all pretty much godly beings. The issue is not that some characters are just too powerful for my tastes.

It's just there's no real drama involved in a battle between the Hulk and Abomination because Hulk can and will just get stronger and stronger until he can punch out Eternity if he feels like it. Hulk might as well be omnipotent and unless he's facing another omnipotent character there is no real danger.

For all the crap people give the Flash for being too powerful, he does have at least a couple of villains who can take him out any given time. Superman has clear weaknesses that his enemies can exploit.


well at least your admitting it is your taste. However, while you state your still enjoying godly characters, you still attempt to bring street level ideas
into the realm of godly characters. The ideal that no matter how strong the character is, the villian has to be stronger, the ideal of drama, and other topics are more originated towards street level characters. People don't read Hulk for the drama, they read Hulk for the chaos. They read it to see whose face he's gonna take out next, not how grand a threat he's going to take. Thor is among similar lines, but no where near as much as Hulk (imo.)

In the end, it still goes back to my original point. Godly characters provide a different taste than their street heroics counterparts. While "drama" can be provided, it's not what it's meant for. Godly characters are made for you to experience what it's like to be that strong, that fast, that powerful, and enjoy the ride that the character brings.

[Sabaition]

Thor- Yes, he's always been powerful, some would argue that he's already been depowered, but I can't help but to notice how he always seems to be the guy to either finish a threat or lead the charge against the most powerful opponents. Oh, the time-stream's collapsing and Galactus is destroying the city. Have at thee! Janet's actually a living bomb, we're all going to die in a minute. No problem, Thor'll just send her into another dimension. The Sentry is going berserk. Thor'll handle it. Sometimes you can't help but to wonder why the other Avengers even bother.
The worst thing is how many people seems to be fine with this. I guarantee you, if you make a rumbles-thread with 'Thor vs X', most people will vote Thor almost by default. I mean, how many times we've heard about the 'Berserker's rage'-thing and strength-doubling belt and whatever. Thank jeebus he doesn't have the Odinforce anymore. I accept the fact that he's a god and he should be powerful, but IMO he should have no business messing with Galactus.

Even the Thing takes shots at Galactus. Besides it's not like he's ever done more then piss him off and then gets one shot. However some things like the "dimension dump" needs to go. He has all these insane powers that make his hammer to big a plot device. Hell, Doctor Who's sonic screw driver seems
limited compared to that thing.

Hulk- He's the strongest one there is. Fine, but when I hear people claiming that he can get so angry, so strong, that his punches will tear the fabric of reality apart, I can't help but to shake my head. Why won't you just make him a reality-warper while you're at it. There should be some kind of limit to what you can do with pure physical force.
It's not the Hulk's strenght that even bothers me. It's his invulnerability. He's not only resistant to pretty much everything, but he regenerates faster than Wolverine. So how do you kill him then? Even Superman has kryptonite and magic to look out for. I've heard that Hulk can even resist molecular/reality manipulation. That just seems like overkill to me.

People need to drop the reality punch already. How many times has he done it again??? Exactly.... Hulks regen seems fine. I dont recall seeing him bleeding so much in my life as the last couple of years. Not to mention his duribilty is rough Thor/Hercs level. Making him a mortal with the strength to challange Gods. Which is kinda the point. If he was that strong but as durible as saaaay Wolverine, he would have died LONG ago.


Wolverine- He's a guy with a metal skeleton, claws and a healing factor. C'mon, even I could kill him.

I dont get the problem? Wolverine has been shown in several comics to be killable. His flesh has been vaporized on a few occasions. Not his fault he's picking fights Deadpool rather then the Dark Phoenix.



Iron Man- Ok, he's not that bad, but I just don't see why he should be in the 100-ton range.

100ton range? I wasnt aware he lifted that much... Since when? Some of earths most cutting edge weapons make him a best. And again, it's not like he's taking on Blue Marvel or beating Hulk.


Steve Rogers- I've said this a few times before and I'll say it again: he needs to lose to someone. Badly. No, not just a he-lost-due-to-some-small-factor-and-comes-back-later-to-get-payback- kind of defeat. Just a thorough ass-kicking.

Iron man beating his face in and shattering his jaw during the Civil War wasnt enough for ya?

[Blackknight75]

I think Wolverine's healing factor needs to be dialed back a bit. It does take some of the drama and suspense out of a fight when you know Logan can pretty much grow anything back in a short amount of time.

There was a bit during the Civil War saga, where Wolverine suffers the full brunt of an explosive blast from Nitro, being reduced to a shiney adamantium skeleton, but with enough organic matter protected on the inside of the skull.

I think it would emphasise how skilled a fighter Logan is if he didn't rely so much on his healing factor, and did his best to avoid the type of wounds that would kill anyone else.

[Uxas]

Godly characters are made for you to experience what it's like to be that strong, that fast, that powerful, and enjoy the ride that the character brings.

Fair enough. But I'm still sticking with my view on the matter. :biggrin:


However some things like the "dimension dump" needs to go. He has all these insane powers that make his hammer to big a plot device. Hell, Doctor Who's sonic screw driver seems
limited compared to that thing.

This is pretty much what my issue with Thor boils down to.


I dont get the problem? Wolverine has been shown in several comics to be killable. His flesh has been vaporized on a few occasions. Not his fault he's picking fights Deadpool rather then the Dark Phoenix.

Yeah, bad wording on my part. Wolvie and Steve aren't too powerful on paper, but writers portray them as a bit too effective IMO. We've all seen how Logan charges at a dozen guys who are all shooting him with machine guns, but really, metal skeleton or not, the sheer impact of the bullets should pin him to the ground. Yeah, I know, comics.


Iron man beating his face in and shattering his jaw during the Civil War wasnt enough for ya?

Nothing's even enough when it comes to Steve getting beaten. ^^ Seriously, that was a good fight, but Cap didn't lose. I just wish Davos or someone would walk up to him, ghallenge him to a duel, just plain beat him and then walk away. Hell, people call Batman Bat-God but I can think of several fights where he lost fair and square. I don't recall any with Cap.

[StoneGold]

Nothing's even enough when it comes to Steve getting beaten. ^^ Seriously, that was a good fight, but Cap didn't lose. I just wish Davos or someone would walk up to him, ghallenge him to a duel, just plain beat him and then walk away.

Which is really what this is about -- you wanting to see a character beaten. Except apparently not actually wanting to read the books he appears in to see him beaten, since you keep passing off every single instance of him getting his butt kicked as not enough.

[drownedbyimmolation]

I regret that a lot of people who read my column apparently didn't get the tongue-in-cheek aspect of it. This is probably my fault as the writer.

The column was meant as a partly-ironic love letter to the Hulk. As I write in the beginning, the column was the first of a regular weekly series of posts dedicated to the Hulk. As such, I thought a "HULK IS BETTER THAN EVERYONE" column to kick things off was appropriate.

Much of what some of you imply was hypocrisy was very much intended. I am well aware, for example, that in spite of the fact that I start off by bashing the very concept of versus debates, the entire freaking thing is a versus debate argument. I thought that by posting such matches as "Uncle Sam and the Freedom Fighters vs. Neil Young and Crazy Horse" and "Power Man and Iron Fist vs. the survivors of Hiroshima," readers would get that not everything I wrote was meant to be taken seriously.

However, as I wrote above, it was meant to be partly ironic, but I couldn't be more serious about feeling that the character's ability to defeat everything and everyone in his path is part of the whole point of the character. I do not think you can say that about just any other superhero character. Sure, all heroes in comics eventually beat the bad guy, but what I was talking about the specific manner in which the Hulk does it. While there are notable exceptions - most memorably during Peter David's run on the comic - the Hulk's victories aren't won by cunning or by learning an important lesson about himself that somehow also applies to fighting the Rhino or by reaching into his soul to stoke the flames of his indomitable human spirit blah blah blah. He wins because that's what he does.



Oh no, just chalk it up to me speed reading though it and viewing it with one context already in mind (this thread), I think that maybe more accurate, I found your writing to be of a pretty high quality and probably would have caught the intended irony and humor of your piece otherwise.

The first part of your article I agreed with strongly, in the sense when ever I have been if discussions with the Rumbles Board or VS people you refer to, it always came down to one answer, and when I say *always* I don't really mean that, occasionally I would have a deeper conversation with another regarding the consistency the varying context of the situation and even the humor. Much less insistence on being right, and a greater emphasis on what might happen, given certain factors. So as I just generalized, it is common that others do. In such generic terms, you set ideal conditions for Hulk to smash, anything and everything. For the reasons you gave.

I actually reread it later after reading more stuff from your blog and got the context a lot better lol, so I apologize for not reading into it deeper or with patience, and although I think Squirrel Girl is the best example to use for part of of your article, Hulk can be used as well verily easy and of course with Hulk you actually get to demonstrate an appreciation and love for the character and all the comics, writers, stories he has been in or graced by.

So my bad.

[Uxas]

Which is really what this is about -- you wanting to see a character beaten. Except apparently not actually wanting to read the books he appears in to see him beaten, since you keep passing off every single instance of him getting his butt kicked as not enough.

It's pretty much an accepted fact that Steve has rarely suffered any real defeats, whether physical or not. 'Captain America' can never lose, because it would be an insult to the idea he represents if he does, or some crap like that. That's just boring.

But this thread is hardly about Steve so I'll just leave it at that.

[steve2275]

Is Iron Man even depicted that strong? I would agree though. 70 ton makes more sense to me.



Some characters it is just writing them in the right enviroment. Others to me there is something wrong with them.
i m having class 100 strength would make him more like thor
starks armor is like thors hammer
both can make their owners do many things
besides i dont want i m to be stronger than COLOSSUS :tongue:

[AllisterH]

Babybro...I think you're equating "hero weaker than villain" with "street level" and frankly, both Captain America and Batman would like a word with you.

Captain America has been consistently shown able to beat up/hang with beings he had no right hanging with and Batman for that matter...Mosey over to the Avengers board and take a peek in the Avengers Prime comicbook limited series.

In all honesty, most of the Street level heroes have gotten seriously stronger NOT weaker IMO.

Anyone remember a time when it only took 3-5 hand ninjas to give Daredevil more than he can handle?

Anyone remember when in BAtman, KGBeast by himself was equal to Batman and just one member of the league of assassins was scary? Anyone doubt that even Robin (either Tim or Damian) could wipe the floor with multiple members of LoA?). I think this trend started in the 90s ironically...earlier comics from the 70s and 80s and I think "regular" mooks still had a chance of taking down Captain America or Batman

I'm with Uxas here...either the heroes need to get depowered or the villains need to be stronger (and I don't mean stronger a la Batman's villains where they indicate strength by how much of the civilian body count they an rack up).

re: Ufoes

Personally, I think the UFoes need to take over from the Frightful Four as the anti-FF. Problem is that the 4 have individually become so strong that I think most incarnations of the Frightful Four, either non PIS Sue or Johnny could solo and Reed or Ben can handle any frightful four that didn't have hydroman/Sandman on the team.

re: Hulk foes

Ok..let's name all the Earth-based foes that are depicted USUALLY as the bad guys (so no Stark in Hulkbuster armour) that can take Hulk?

Full Strength Juggernaut
Abomination - but only if Blonsky did it quickly..I think it was if he didn't put hulk under in 5 minutes, the Hulk would be too strong afterwards

[Uxas]

Ok..let's name all the Earth-based foes that are depicted USUALLY as the bad guys (so no Stark in Hulkbuster armour) that can take Hulk?

Full Strength Juggernaut
Abomination - but only if Blonsky did it quickly..I think it was if he didn't put hulk under in 5 minutes, the Hulk would be too strong afterwards

Yeah, that's my point exactly. In a fight between the Hulk and Blonsky, under normal circumstances, Hulk will always win. Not just because he's the hero, but because he will get strong enough to beat Blonsky down (unless Abo was on speed or something). A fight between hero and villain should be able to go either way any given time. IMO.

Full strenght Jugg on the other is probably one of the few that can stand up to the Hulk even in his current power level.

[XPac]

It's pretty much an accepted fact that Steve has rarely suffered any real defeats, whether physical or not. 'Captain America' can never lose, because it would be an insult to the idea he represents if he does, or some crap like that. That's just boring.

But this thread is hardly about Steve so I'll just leave it at that.

Heroes in general rarely suffer defeat... that's kind of a given in the genre.

Good guys win. Yah.

[Uxas]

Heroes in general rarely suffer defeat... that's kind of a given in the genre.

Good guys win. Yah.

Aknowledged and accepted.. But if you look at Cap's past and compare it to the one of the guy in your avatar, surely you can admit that there's a bit of a difference there? :wink:

[Alan2099]

Should some Marvel heroes be depowered?
Yes.

but only the characters that you really like and they should all be brought down to the point where J. Jonah Jameson can kick their butts.

[SilverZeal]

I'd probably depower Blue Marvel a bit (unless he's used more in the cosmic scene, in which case he's just fine). If he's going to have the Green Lantern powerset in addition to the Superman power set, I might lower his strength a notch below the Moon splitting level he's currently at.

And I might give Thor some limitations... specific conditions where he can use his higher end stuff like the god blast.

We/Silver Zeal think dat BM is alright d way he is.....he hasnt even gotten enuff shine and u already want 2 depower him. Do u dislike him dat much already......we thought u were a fan?


In retrospect, the Sentry was a whole different kind've weird.

I actually miss the unpredictability of his appearances in the books he appeared in.

A mortal man with godlike powers run amok.

The Sentry needs to come back.

Sentry would b awesome if partnered with BM and Photon.


Heroes win. Villains lose. That's fine.

However, if you look at Spider-Man, he's been beaten up, lost or struggled far more than Steve. You feel like he might actually get hurt sometimes. I can't even remember the last time I felt Steve had to try to win a fight.

Just ask Black Panthers...Tchalla and Tchaka!

We also agreed dat Jean and d Phoenix force should b separate and only temporarily connected 2 it.

[XPac]

We/Silver Zeal think dat BM is alright d way he is.....he hasnt even gotten enuff shine and u already want 2 depower him. Do u dislike him dat much already......we thought u were a fan?




Being a fan has nothing to do with power level.

I like Spider-man and Captain America, but I won't want them strong enough to split the moon either.

As I argued in another thread, the truth of the matter is that he's NEVER going to be written that strong in a fight. He's never going to be hundreds of thousands of times stronger than the Thing or Ms. Marvel in an actual fight, even though he should be. So even if he's not depowered, he'll almost certainly going to be written far less powerful than what we see in his feats. You're going to get the exact same end result. The ONLY difference is depowering him actually creates an explanation beyond basic bad writing.

As far as shine goes... characters don't shine because they are powerful. Captain AMerica and Batman are two of the shiniest heroes in their universes... and they are also two of the weakest in terms of pure power.

To me, a character shines when he's written well. Simple as that. And the sad reality is that people with the superman powerset are almost NEVER written well in fights. For practical storytelling reasons they are underwritten all the time. There are countless examples of that. I've never understood why that powerset was so popular, since pretty much everyone who is given it never utilizes their power to their real full potential anyways. It makes no sense to me.

[AllisterH]

To me, a character shines when he's written well. Simple as that. And the sad reality is that people with the superman powerset are almost NEVER written well in fights. For practical storytelling reasons they are underwritten all the time. There are countless examples of that. I've never understood why that powerset was so popular, since pretty much everyone who is given it never utilizes their power to their real full potential anyways. It makes no sense to me.

THIS

When reading a fight I don't wan to be doing two things.

1. Thinking "ok, there's no way he could do that...that character has been depicted as good enough to give Thor/Superman a serious fight. Of late, I think there hae been so many Spiderman versus Firelord for certain characters (looking at you Batman/Cap A) that it really is annoying."

OR

2. Thinking "Why didn't you use power X that you used JUST LAST ISSUE or that superspeed"

Superspeed is the biggest offender IMO especially since I've been a manga/anime fan since befre Dragonball Z. SPEED pretty much trumps all and why do mana/anime understand that but superhero comic writers don't?.

[babybro]

Babybro...I think you're equating "hero weaker than villain" with "street level" and frankly, both Captain America and Batman would like a word with you.

Captain America has been consistently shown able to beat up/hang with beings he had no right hanging with and Batman for that matter...Mosey over to the Avengers board and take a peek in the Avengers Prime comicbook limited series.

In all honesty, most of the Street level heroes have gotten seriously stronger NOT weaker IMO.

Anyone remember a time when it only took 3-5 hand ninjas to give Daredevil more than he can handle?

Anyone remember when in BAtman, KGBeast by himself was equal to Batman and just one member of the league of assassins was scary? Anyone doubt that even Robin (either Tim or Damian) could wipe the floor with multiple members of LoA?). I think this trend started in the 90s ironically...earlier comics from the 70s and 80s and I think "regular" mooks still had a chance of taking down Captain America or Batman

I'm with Uxas here...either the heroes need to get depowered or the villains need to be stronger (and I don't mean stronger a la Batman's villains where they indicate strength by how much of the civilian body count they an rack up).

re: Ufoes

Personally, I think the UFoes need to take over from the Frightful Four as the anti-FF. Problem is that the 4 have individually become so strong that I think most incarnations of the Frightful Four, either non PIS Sue or Johnny could solo and Reed or Ben can handle any frightful four that didn't have hydroman/Sandman on the team.

re: Hulk foes

Ok..let's name all the Earth-based foes that are depicted USUALLY as the bad guys (so no Stark in Hulkbuster armour) that can take Hulk?

Full Strength Juggernaut
Abomination - but only if Blonsky did it quickly..I think it was if he didn't put hulk under in 5 minutes, the Hulk would be too strong afterwards


I think you are misunderstanding where I'm coming from. I've never state that street level heroes has been getting weaker. Nor do I mind what happens to street level characters because I have no interest with them.
However, the Uxas wasn't discussing about Captain America or Batman, or Daredevil. He was talking about the Hulk, Thor, and other powerful characters.

There is two set of ideals that comes with these character, the street level characters value the ideal of hero being weaker than the villian and struggling to win against all odds. Now whether they are doing that or not with street level characters, I have no clue. But that is essentially an entirely different issue. The godly characters, however, are meant for something different, which I explain in the previous post.

So again, no, they shouldn't be depowered, because godly characters doesn't follow the same structure as street level characters. Their purpose is something entirely different, a style writing aim towards the fans such as myself who enjoy reading about powerful characters who literally smash the face of his opponents with their power.

[AllisterH]

So again, no, they shouldn't be depowered, because godly characters doesn't follow the same structure as street level characters. Their purpose is something entirely different, a style writing aim towards the fans such as myself who enjoy reading about powerful characters who literally smash the face of his opponents with their power.

Um..but that doesn't make sense especially if you're a Marvel reader.

Thor and Surfer are marvel's poster boys for "we're as powerfulas DC heroes" but the difference IMO was always that the opponents regularly matched up with the hero.

Thor for example, I would say EASILY 95% of his opponents either fall under the Asgard-fantasy angle or the space-cosmic angle. And Thor got his ss kicked a LOT.

Got spanked multiple times by Celestials, humbled by Galactus more than once, had full on brawls with surfer-level opponents.where he got lucky.

Same goes for Surfer who was generally facing down Mephisto who he couldn't beat in a straight fight, getting wrcked by Thanos or simply embarrassed by the Elders.

I think what the OP is talking about is that instead of seeing more fights like this, we're seeing more fights like say Thor vs the Wrecking Crew.

[XPac]

THIS

When reading a fight I don't wan to be doing two things.

1. Thinking "ok, there's no way he could do that...that character has been depicted as good enough to give Thor/Superman a serious fight. Of late, I think there hae been so many Spiderman versus Firelord for certain characters (looking at you Batman/Cap A) that it really is annoying."

OR

2. Thinking "Why didn't you use power X that you used JUST LAST ISSUE or that superspeed"

Superspeed is the biggest offender IMO especially since I've been a manga/anime fan since befre Dragonball Z. SPEED pretty much trumps all and why do mana/anime understand that but superhero comic writers don't?.

Yeah... as anyone from the rumbles boards can attest to, the speed blitz (particularly the class 100 speed blitz) is a pain. Thankfully most mainstream marvel characters have stayed clear of it. Earth bound ones at least... cosmics pretty much need it for practical transportation purposes.

DBZ handled speed well... I definately agree with you there. I think in a lot of ways that's a far more functionally useful ability than even strength and durability. But a lot of superman writers just can't seem to write it well. I suppose I don't blame them in that regard... it'd be pretty hard to do without having like 99% of your fights end in a fraction of a second.

[XPac]

Um..but that doesn't make sense especially if you're a Marvel reader.

Thor and Surfer are marvel's poster boys for "we're as powerfulas DC heroes" but the difference IMO was always that the opponents regularly matched up with the hero.

Thor for example, I would say EASILY 95% of his opponents either fall under the Asgard-fantasy angle or the space-cosmic angle. And Thor got his ss kicked a LOT.

Got spanked multiple times by Celestials, humbled by Galactus more than once, had full on brawls with surfer-level opponents.where he got lucky.

Same goes for Surfer who was generally facing down Mephisto who he couldn't beat in a straight fight, getting wrcked by Thanos or simply embarrassed by the Elders.

I think what the OP is talking about is that instead of seeing more fights like this, we're seeing more fights like say Thor vs the Wrecking Crew.

I think in a lot of instances it's much easier to manage that sort of thing in a solo book.

In Thors books, you only have to worry about scaling the threat proportionately to Thor. But in the Avengers, you have to balance things out more. You don't want a threat so low end that Thor risks falling asleep in mid battle... but you don't want a threat so high that the less uber members on the team like say Hawkeye are functionally useless (and I'm not trying to pick on Clint when I say that... he's risen to the occason many many times).

Seinfeld once joked about why Superman needs the Justice League... and a lot of the time that actually does apply. Aside from needing Batman to tell him what to do (cause anytime Bats is around, everyone else seems to get a bit dumber for some reason), Supes when written probably can probably handle it solo.

[MichaelChen]

Thor- I think he could use a few less exotic abilities. He's about strength and the weather, and his abilities should be mainly about that.

Hulk-
Hulk badly needs to be written as less of a Mary Sue. There should be ways around pure strength, but Hulk is written as being able to warp reality so there is literally nothing you can do to even get around his strength.

Wolverine-
Wolverine has gotten his ass kicked a lot for quite a while now. Ten years ago I would have agreed with you, but Wolverine's Mary Sue days have been over for some time now.

Iron Man-
I'll believe that when I actually see him beat some name characters. Seriously, it's been something like twenty years since he got a clean win over a name character who wasn't one of his villains. He is, if anything, an Anti-Mary-Sue, a jobber who loses constantly and has huge asterisks over his few wins.

Steve Rogers-
Agreed. In huge need of being raped in a clean fight. He's such a Mary Sue that they should just change the name of that trope to a Steve Rogers.

[StoneGold]

It's pretty much an accepted fact that Steve has rarely suffered any real defeats, whether physical or not. 'Captain America' can never lose, because it would be an insult to the idea he represents if he does, or some crap like that. That's just boring.

But this thread is hardly about Steve so I'll just leave it at that.

So question, how does something become an accepted fact? Because I keep posting visual proof of otherwise, but you keep ignoring it for one reason or another.

[StoneGold]

Steve Rogers-
Agreed. In huge need of being raped in a clean fight. He's such a Mary Sue that they should just change the name of that trope to a Steve Rogers.

You'd like to see Steve raped, wouldn't you? Yeah, bet that'd get you off real fast, wouldn't it?

[Uxas]

So question, how does something become an accepted fact? Because I keep posting visual proof of otherwise, but you keep ignoring it for one reason or another.

Journey to almost any Steve related thread and you'll find out. You make it sound like I'm the only one who wants him knocked down a peg. I'm certainly not.

As for your proof? Well, that CW pic proves nothing and if you can't figure out why, that's your problem.

[Hulk_Is]

I need to eventually get in on this.

[StoneGold]

Journey to almost any Steve related thread and you'll find out. You make it sound like I'm the only one who wants him knocked down a peg. I'm certainly not.

As for your proof? Well, that CW pic proves nothing and if you can't figure out why, that's your problem.

That doesn't make it an accepted fact. That makes it something you want to believe, despite any proof provided. Look, start a thread about Obama's birthplace, you'll get a bunch of crazies claiming he is not a citizen. Doesn't make it an accepted fact. Mostly, the bitching comes from people who don't bother to read the books, but don't like the character on general principal. You know, people who want to see the character sexually violated.

Although if you're desperate to see Steve lose recently, might want to check out last month's Deadpool.


EDIT: I do like the last part though, your visual evidence proves nothing, but it's your fault that I can't explain why!

[Uxas]

EDIT: I do like the last part though, your visual evidence proves nothing, but it's your fault that I can't explain why!

I already explained it. In one sentence.

I won't derail this thread any further.

[StoneGold]

I already explained it. In one sentence.

I won't derail this thread any further.

No you didn't. You just said that if I didn't understand, that was my problem. That explains nothing. It also doesn't explain what happened in the last issue of Deadpool. Or his beatdown in his mini. Or, and this goes back a bit, but he's been dead, his beating in Black Panther. And, you know, his being dead.


Please, if I'm just not getting it, can you put it into words why I'm not getting it. Why don't all the times he's taken a whupping count?

And holy crap, this is all about your lead post, how the hell is this derailing, beyond you not either wanting or being able to discuss it further? How is it derailing, beyond someone not agreeing with what you said?

[babybro]

Um..but that doesn't make sense especially if you're a Marvel reader.

Thor and Surfer are marvel's poster boys for "we're as powerfulas DC heroes" but the difference IMO was always that the opponents regularly matched up with the hero.

Thor for example, I would say EASILY 95% of his opponents either fall under the Asgard-fantasy angle or the space-cosmic angle. And Thor got his ss kicked a LOT.

Got spanked multiple times by Celestials, humbled by Galactus more than once, had full on brawls with surfer-level opponents.where he got lucky.

Same goes for Surfer who was generally facing down Mephisto who he couldn't beat in a straight fight, getting wrcked by Thanos or simply embarrassed by the Elders.

I think what the OP is talking about is that instead of seeing more fights like this, we're seeing more fights like say Thor vs the Wrecking Crew.



Well you find that as the difference, I surely haven't. True, like any character, he has taken his bumps and bruises. Just because superman is consider among the best doesn't mean he hasn't been humbled by the likes of superboy prime, doomsday, darkseid and more. But with that said, while I'm unfamiliar with Surfer, Thor has more than occasion just terrorized his opponents.

And Hulk? Please, really the only opponent that seems to come close to him in strength is abomination. That's it, other than that, while he fights strong opponents, he still lay waste to them.

So again, I heavily disagree that these characters doesn't follow along the same lines as their dc counterparts. While they do battle some foes who are among their power levels or even greater, they are far from the street level type where they are constantly fighting against villians who are stronger than themselves, and have to rely more on wits and skills to outmaneuver them. They use their power and unleash hell on their foes.

[StoneGold]

Thor and Surfer are marvel's poster boys for "we're as powerfulas DC heroes" but the difference IMO was always that the opponents regularly matched up with the hero.


Mr. Hyde and Cobra matched up with Thor?

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/thor/106-13.jpg

[AllisterH]

When was the last time Hyde actually made an appearance in Thor?

Hell, Hyde is a perfect example of what I mean, Hyde has practically migrated over to the Spidey/Daredevil weight class and makes appearances there these days.

I'm not stating that Wrecking Crew et al weren't Thor opponents but I always found that the writers at least acknowledged they were not opponents that wold actually trouble Thor without extenuating circumstances.

Hell, after Avengers under Siege, didn't Thor purposely take a beating from the Wrecking Crew just to get Heracles riled up? That to me shows the writers saying "hey, the wrecking crew is weak enough that Thor thinks he can let them bea him up and not be injured until Heracles gets his head in the game"

You think Thor would try that tactic using Thanos instead?

[XPac]

When was the last time Hyde actually made an appearance in Thor?

Hell, Hyde is a perfect example of what I mean, Hyde has practically migrated over to the Spidey/Daredevil weight class and makes appearances there these days.

I'm not stating that Wrecking Crew et al weren't Thor opponents but I always found that the writers at least acknowledged they were not opponents that wold actually trouble Thor without extenuating circumstances.

Hell, after Avengers under Siege, didn't Thor purposely take a beating from the Wrecking Crew just to get Heracles riled up? That to me shows the writers saying "hey, the wrecking crew is weak enough that Thor thinks he can let them bea him up and not be injured until Heracles gets his head in the game"

You think Thor would try that tactic using Thanos instead?

Yeah, I think the minute the Handbooks established that Hyde was only class 50 strength, he stopped being a viable opponent to Thor. He probably stopped being one long before that, but with the handbooks it was pretty cemented.

The Wrecking Crew is just a weird case, in which they're all over the place. They can hold their own against an entire team of Avengers on a real good day (which on paper makes them a moderate threat to Thor at least), yet job out to Iron Fist on a bad day.

[XPac]

Thinking about it.... I think one of the best handlings of a potentially uber powerful character is Ms. Marvel.

She typically operates at a very managable default power level. However, she can go "super saiyan" under the right circumstances and become almost a plot device on her own.

You don't have to randomly make her weaker or stronger to suit the story, because her actual abilities function in a manner where you can actually justify it.

I think they should try to incorporate the super saiyan technique a bit more for the real heavy hitters... have them have the ability to perform at an uber high level, but create circumstances where you're not stuck with them at that level when it's not necessarily desirable.

I think Collective Man sort of works that way too. I think he normally operates at 5 times the power level of a person, or something like that. But I think he can briefly have the strength of a billion people.

[savagedoctor]

In general, so many comic characters are way too overpowered. its almost ridiculous really, although its surprising how it hasn't limited story possibilities. but really, superman singlehandedly, or the avengers as a group, could take out all the governments of the world and all the badguys in a few days with the right plan. in fact that happened back in wildstorm's eye of the storm crossover, the authority took over the us govt.

i mean, you always know that no matter how many times wolverine gets burned or blinded or eviscerated or whatever he will bounce back in 10min.
i suppose its basically a narriiative choice: CATHARSIS vs SUSPENSE.

There is some strange sado-masochistic catharsis in seeing your fave character get horribly beaten up and mutilated and punished knowing that it'll all be ok in a few pages. plus its basically violence porn, you know exactly what the money shot is gonna be, just hang in there and enjoy the physical action.

As opposed to true suspense with vulnerable characters where you really have no idea from story to story what the outcome will be? i just re-read planetary 26 by ellis, which, the first time i read it, literally had my palms sweating from suspense. i had no idea whether the main protagonist elijah snow would survive his climactic confrontation with his antagonists the four, and given ellis' track record with his protagonists it really was likely he wouldn't. snow is a character with some greater than normal physical resiliance, and the ability of heat subtraction, but he is hardly invulnerable. if it had been the hulk, i don't think i would have had the slightest doubt who would be the victor.

[XPac]

In general, so many comic characters are way too overpowered. its almost ridiculous really, although its surprising how it hasn't limited story possibilities. but really, superman singlehandedly, or the avengers as a group, could take out all the governments of the world and all the badguys in a few days with the right plan. in fact that happened back in wildstorm's eye of the storm crossover, the authority took over the us govt.

i mean, you always know that no matter how many times wolverine gets burned or blinded or eviscerated or whatever he will bounce back in 10min.
i suppose its basically a narriiative choice: CATHARSIS vs SUSPENSE.

There is some strange sado-masochistic catharsis in seeing your fave character get horribly beaten up and mutilated and punished knowing that it'll all be ok in a few pages. plus its basically violence porn, you know exactly what the money shot is gonna be, just hang in there and enjoy the physical action.

As opposed to true suspense with vulnerable characters where you really have no idea from story to story what the outcome will be? i just re-read planetary 26 by ellis, which, the first time i read it, literally had my palms sweating from suspense. i had no idea whether the main protagonist elijah snow would survive his climactic confrontation with his antagonists the four, and given ellis' track record with his protagonists it really was likely he wouldn't. snow is a character with some greater than normal physical resiliance, and the ability of heat subtraction, but he is hardly invulnerable. if it had been the hulk, i don't think i would have had the slightest doubt who would be the victor.

I think part of the problem is that a lot of the time heroes are given stories where they are powered up a bit so they can come from behind to save the day. The problem is that villains normally don't scale up with them. So either the villains are no longer really used (like Iron Mans rogues, who he basically outgrew), or the heroes power ups are basically ignored (like Spidey, who got 2 seperate power ups prior to One More day, which were largely ignored before vanishing entirely).

I sometimes wish Marvel had the equivalent of DC's Underworld Unleashed, where Mephisto or whatever powered up the MU villians a bit across the board.

[AllisterH]

re: Ms Marvel

Yeah...I think her "power-up" is a nice "out" for her (although I hope they don't make it so that she can just grab any outlet and power up to Binary-level)

re: Iron Man foes

This is the one that I never thought made sense. If you think about it, Iron Man foes should be the one set of foes immune to the "heroes getting stronger, villains staying the same".

Iron Man foes are corporate epsionage aka villains who to begin with were never meant to fight Iron Man directly and technological foes who should be always trying to surpass the current version. The only problem I have with Iron Man is when Stark dons a really old suit and then proceeds to wallop the current day tech foe. That kind of screws over the threat of the technological opponent.

re: General powering up of superheroes

I'm reading the pre-Crisis post Adam West Batman and even though I KNOW Batman will survive, the fact that the Batman writers have him having trouble with actual gangs of crooks and the fact that 1 superhuman is in many cases, more than Bats can handle?

Quite refreshing compared to Batgod we have nowadays.

[XPac]

re: Ms Marvel

Yeah...I think her "power-up" is a nice "out" for her (although I hope they don't make it so that she can just grab any outlet and power up to Binary-level)

re: Iron Man foes

This is the one that I never thought made sense. If you think about it, Iron Man foes should be the one set of foes immune to the "heroes getting stronger, villains staying the same".

Iron Man foes are corporate epsionage aka villains who to begin with were never meant to fight Iron Man directly and technological foes who should be always trying to surpass the current version. The only problem I have with Iron Man is when Stark dons a really old suit and then proceeds to wallop the current day tech foe. That kind of screws over the threat of the technological opponent.

re: General powering up of superheroes

I'm reading the pre-Crisis post Adam West Batman and even though I KNOW Batman will survive, the fact that the Batman writers have him having trouble with actual gangs of crooks and the fact that 1 superhuman is in many cases, more than Bats can handle?

Quite refreshing compared to Batgod we have nowadays.

Batman and Spider-Man are both in somewhat the unique position of being both functionally street level heroes and JLA/Avenger level. So they have too scale up and down quite a bit.

I think Bruce is really on Batgod in the JLA books. He's cumberstomping gods without breaking a sweat there, but in Gotham he's still getting a moderate level of difficulty against Joker and Killer Croc.

Spider even in his own book will be trading blows with a Herald of Galactus one day, yet struggling against anyone with a black belt the next. Poor Peter may have the more really good and really bad days than anyone else in comics.

[Sue Storm lover]

My beloved Sue Storm's force field should be depowered somewhat. When it is at full strength, it puts her at a level far above most other Marvel characters.