Which villains respect Steve Rogers?

[mcgaffer]

Basically which villains respect Steve for what he did in WWII? Hitler hit the gypsy community hard, would Doom, despite not liking the Avengers, have respect for Steve for what he accomplished against the Nazi's? And do other american villains respect him for this too?

[The Last Day Dawns]

Dr Doom doesn't respect anyone but himself. He's too arrogant ;)

[drownedbyimmolation]

I would hope not, otherwise, why just Steve and not other characters that fought against Nazi's in World War 2. His role, may have been bigger than the average solider but to me, its a perspectives thing. Villains tend to have warped perspectives. I do think some would have respect and admiration for Cap, as well as jealousy and spite.

Doom may see him as a more worthy than most, adversary of sorts, but respect... I guess depends how much respect. Like another poster just before said, Doom is too arrogant really to respect many that much. If at all.

[Willow616]

Knowing Doom he probably thinks that in some way he won the war himself in one of his future time travelling adventures....

[darknessatnoon]

No, he does not. Not everyone "respects" Steve Rogers. He is a pretty insignificant person.

[XPac]

I'm not sure Doom necessarily respects Steve Rogers specifically for what he did in WW2, but I would imagine he'd have a descent level of respect for Steve Rogers as a man in general.

At the end of Heroes Reborn Captain America run Doom and Cap do have a short little face off, and I did get the vibe that Doom had a bit of respect for Cap.

Unlike some villains, I do think Doom can respect certain heroes. That's not to say that he wants to be buddies with them... but he'll give them the credit they deserve.

[Rheged]

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq300/carlaverock/N%20Scans/SVTU/SVTU11_1.jpg

Doesn't sound much like respect to me. :wink:

[doctormistermaster]

No, he does not. Not everyone "respects" Steve Rogers. He is a pretty insignificant person.

I am pretty sick of Steve being the worlds most respected man who everyone looks up to and likes, it bores me to tears.

[Scelestus]

I'd bet not. While Doom wouldn't admit to respecting anyone, if he were to respect somebody it'd probably be due to intellect or power, of which Steve has (relatively) little.

[StoneGold]

He respects him as much as he does any other man. Go read the Super-Villain Team-Up issues where they fought the Red Skull, where he tries to convince Cap to become his regular partner. Or when he helped Cap out during the Waid/Garney arc where he was stripped of the shield and costume.

[darknessatnoon]

I am pretty sick of Steve being the worlds most respected man who everyone looks up to and likes, it bores me to tears.

Yes, Wolverine should try to kill him again. It was sickening to watch them drink together in Aaron's run. That was a real misfire.

[XPac]

I'd bet not. While Doom wouldn't admit to respecting anyone, if he were to respect somebody it'd probably be due to intellect or power, of which Steve has (relatively) little.

Cap has intellect.

He won't be building any plot devices in any laboratories anytime soon... but he's a smart enough tactician and field leader to get even Batman to concede that he should be calling the shots.

And as far as power goes... right now I'd say Steve has plenty.

[darknessatnoon]

Doom is not going to fall for that high school alpha male routine. His mask can filter out Captain America steroid pheremones.

[StoneGold]

Cap has intellect.

He won't be building any plot devices in any laboratories anytime soon... but he's a smart enough tactician and field leader to get even Batman to concede that he should be calling the shots.

And as far as power goes... right now I'd say Steve has plenty.

He beat Doom's gauntlet in Secret Wars.

[Hrist]

http://valiantknife.org/alex/silenceminion.png

The blond guy is Steve Rogers.

Obviously Doom's best Nazi-fighting buddy is Namor.

[Rheged]

<snip>
Obviously Doom's best Nazi-fighting buddy is Namor.

Yep. Though, I hesitate to say Doom respects Namor ... I'm not sure what to call their relationship. But Namor is the one character Doom consistently allies with, often for no discernible reason.

What is that scan from?



He respects him as much as he does any other man. Go read the Super-Villain Team-Up issues where they fought the Red Skull, where he tries to convince Cap to become his regular partner. Or when he helped Cap out during the Waid/Garney arc where he was stripped of the shield and costume.

The picture I posted IS from SVTU.

[Lord Bravery]

I'd imagine Doom respects Steve. Same way i imagine deep down Doom respects Reed.

But will Doom ever show such petty emotions? Heh, not likely.

[Rheged]

Doom respects Reed, only in that he knows he has to bring his A game when dealing with him. Otherwise, he seems to feel mostly hatred and contempt for Reed... and okay, deep down jealousy, but Doom isn't going to admit that. I don't think he feels he has to do that with most other folks, including Cap.

[Rheged]

Sorry, double post.

[Hrist]

Yep. Though, I hesitate to say Doom respects Namor ... I'm not sure what to call their relationship. But Namor is the one character Doom consistently allies with, often for no discernible reason.

What is that scan from?

No, I agree. I wouldn't necessarily say Doom respects Namor, but they have a definite rapport. It's hard to say Doom respects anyone, in the sense that respect means at least acknowledging someone as an equal. Which is something that Doom doesn't do. Also, if he had a ton of personal esteem for Steve because of WW2, he wouldn't have aided Red Skull's whole "assassinate Captain America" plan.

It is from Amazing Spider-man 491 /v2 #50.

[Lord Bravery]

Doom respects Reed, only in that he knows he has to bring his A game when dealing with him. Otherwise, he seems to feel mostly hatred and contempt for Reed... and okay, deep down jealousy, but Doom isn't going to admit that. I don't think he feels he has to do that with most other folks, including Cap.

I think there must be some level of respect if he is jealous of him though.

I like to think that although Doom is this arrogant, pretentious douche bag... really, he is insecure. His insecurities and jealousy of Reed drives him to better himself and prove he is better than the accursed Richards.

[Rheged]

:eek:
Doom insecure?! Bite your tongue!


No, I agree. I wouldn't necessarily say Doom respects Namor, but they have a definite rapport. It's hard to say Doom respects anyone, in the sense that respect means at least acknowledging someone as an equal. Which is something that Doom doesn't do. Also, if he had a ton of personal esteem for Steve because of WW2, he wouldn't have aided Red Skull's whole "assassinate Captain America" plan.

It is from Amazing Spider-man 491 /v2 #50.

Ah, coolness. Thanks!

Exactly. Which is why respect doesn't seem to be the right word as far as Doom is concerned. And rapport is a good start on describing his relationship with Namor. While he and Richards share a comparable intellect, Namor and Doom are more like minded and have similar goals (ruling their respective areas).

[StoneGold]

The picture I posted IS from SVTU.

Which only shows that Doom is a dick. Which he is. But like I said, in #11, he professes his admiration for Cap as they fight the Skull. Says they should do this on a regular basis, to which Cap replies he'd rather team up with Satan.

[Rheged]

Which only shows that Doom is a dick. Which he is. But like I said, in #11, he professes his admiration for Cap as they fight the Skull. Says they should do this on a regular basis, to which Cap replies he'd rather team up with Satan.

Really? He professes his admiration of Cap? I'll have to go dig up that issue. Doom admitting to admiration.

[Iron Maiden]

I think you could put another spin on it and ask does Steve Rogers respect Doom? I'd have to say they have shown a grudging respect. This panel from SVTU also points out that Doom really gets ticked off about not getting the respect he feels he deserves.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y195/IronMaiden99/MB%20comic%20Scans/SVTU%20images/SVU11_pg27.gif

[StoneGold]

Really? He professes his admiration of Cap? I'll have to go dig up that issue. Doom admitting to admiration.

"Can you imagine what miracles we could accomplish? Your combative skills and my genius? I see an alliance far mightier than that which I share now with the Sub-Mariner!"

[darknessatnoon]

I don't think that offering Captain America a chance to become your side-kick is quite a sign of respect.

[StoneGold]

No, I agree. I wouldn't necessarily say Doom respects Namor, but they have a definite rapport. It's hard to say Doom respects anyone, in the sense that respect means at least acknowledging someone as an equal. Which is something that Doom doesn't do. Also, if he had a ton of personal esteem for Steve because of WW2, he wouldn't have aided Red Skull's whole "assassinate Captain America" plan.

It is from Amazing Spider-man 491 /v2 #50.

I'm gonna say Doombot on that one. Doom and Skull don't get along. It's a Nazi/Gypsy thing.


Also, people try to kill those they respect all the time. Respect isn't a matter of like. It's a matter of esteem. Patton respected Rommel. Doesn't mean he wasn't trying to kill him.

[StoneGold]

I don't think that offering Captain America a chance to become your side-kick is quite a sign of respect.

See, that would be plugging in words that weren't used. If Doom wanted a sidekick, he'd take a sidekick. Which is what usually happened with Namor -- he'd brainwash him or trick him in some fashion. Not so here.


Besides, Cap had saved his life a couple panels earlier.

[Hrist]

I'm gonna say Doombot on that one. Doom and Skull don't get along. It's a Nazi/Gypsy thing.


Also, people try to kill those they respect all the time. Respect isn't a matter of like. It's a matter of esteem. Patton respected Rommel. Doesn't mean he wasn't trying to kill him.

Hence the "on the basis of WW2" clause. It's pretty clear Doom has no respect or liking for Skull whatsoever, but his bargain offered something that greatly appealed to Doom— namely, information about just how great Doom is. He hates Nazis, but it doesn't follow that he therefore loves Americans, and his hatred of Nazis is something he'll put aside if it benefits his ego.

That was my point.

[StoneGold]

Hence the "on the basis of WW2" clause. It's pretty clear Doom has no respect or liking for Skull whatsoever, but his bargain offered something that greatly appealed to Doom— namely, information about just how great Doom is. He hates Nazis, but it doesn't follow that he therefore loves Americans, and his hatred of Nazis is something he'll put aside if it benefits his ego.

That was my point.

That's just it, it has nothing to do with Americans, everything to do with Captain America. He's not going to dismiss the guy because he's technically the weakest guy in the room. If he needs a favor, he'll cover it, because it's good to hold a man like Captain America in your debt.

Like I said, it's not like he likes Cap. But he doesn't dismiss him, either. Holds him as a worthy opponent. As opposed to, say, Iron Man. He actively disrespects him.

Or to put it another way, as much as Doom respects any superhero, he respects Cap.

[Brother Justin Crowe]

He's not Steve, but in the alternate reality US War Machine mini-series, there's a bit where Rhodey points out to Doom that a weapon that almost went off on Latverian soil that would have killed any non-Aryans would, obviously, have killed him too, given his gypsy heritage. Doom takes a moment to realize he actually has nothing to say to this, turns around and basically tells Rhodey, Parnell and the others to show themselves out. That's the closest I've ever seen him respecting any of the American superheroes.

[Rheged]

"Can you imagine what miracles we could accomplish? Your combative skills and my genius? I see an alliance far mightier than that which I share now with the Sub-Mariner!"

I'm sorry. THIS sounds like a Doombot. OR Doom simply playing with Cap. I mean, Cap is ONE guy. His combative skills aren't going to do much for Doom, unless he needs an assassin, which clearly is not a role Cap is going to agree to.


See, that would be plugging in words that weren't used. If Doom wanted a sidekick, he'd take a sidekick. Which is what usually happened with Namor -- he'd brainwash him or trick him in some fashion. Not so here.

Actually, usually Namor and Doom would start out on 'equal' footing and in agreement, and then they'd have a falling out or disagreement and then the back stabbing and trickery would begin. To be expected when you get those two egos in the same room.

[StoneGold]

I'm sorry. THIS sounds like a Doombot. OR Doom simply playing with Cap. I mean, Cap is ONE guy. His combative skills aren't going to do much for Doom, unless he needs an assassin, which clearly is not a role Cap is going to agree to.


They're all Doombots, aren't they?

But hey, it's the same Doom you were using as your example.

As for Namor, I seem to recall them usually starting out with Doom promising to help Namor recover his kingdom and then not, or zapping him with the Purple Man ray or some such.

[Rheged]

That's just it, it has nothing to do with Americans, everything to do with Captain America. He's not going to dismiss the guy because he's technically the weakest guy in the room. If he needs a favor, he'll cover it, because it's good to hold a man like Captain America in your debt.

Like I said, it's not like he likes Cap. But he doesn't dismiss him, either. Holds him as a worthy opponent. As opposed to, say, Iron Man. He actively disrespects him.

Or to put it another way, as much as Doom respects any superhero, he respects Cap.

Dude. He told Cap he wasn't capable of thought! I think that's a diss in any language. I don't know ... I just don't see Cap and Doc Doom at the same level at all. And IF Doom respects anyone, it's Richards or Namor or ... maybe T'challa.

[Hrist]

That's just it, it has nothing to do with Americans, everything to do with Captain America. He's not going to dismiss the guy because he's technically the weakest guy in the room. If he needs a favor, he'll cover it, because it's good to hold a man like Captain America in your debt.

Like I said, it's not like he likes Cap. But he doesn't dismiss him, either. Holds him as a worthy opponent. As opposed to, say, Iron Man. He actively disrespects him.

Or to put it another way, as much as Doom respects any superhero, he respects Cap.

See, I don't think that recognizing a formidable opponent equals respect. I never said that Doom doesn't recognize both the position Steve has as an important member of the superhero community and his battle prowess. He has respect for his skills, maybe, but I don't think Doom respects anyone as a person. As said, for me, respect would imply Doom seeing Steve (or anyone else) as his equal, which I don't think he does. So it depends on how you define the term.

And the point about Nazis was because of OP: "Basically which villains respect Steve for what he did in WWII? Hitler hit the gypsy community hard, would Doom, despite not liking the Avengers, have respect for Steve for what he accomplished against the Nazi's?"

So that's why I'm bringing it up.

[StoneGold]

See, I don't think that recognizing a formidable opponent equals respect. I never said that Doom doesn't recognize both the position Steve has as an important member of the superhero community and his battle prowess. He has respect for his skills, maybe, but I don't think Doom respects anyone as a person. As said, for me, respect would imply Doom seeing Steve (or anyone else) as his equal, which I don't think he does. So it depends on how you define the term.

And the point about Nazis was because of OP: "Basically which villains respect Steve for what he did in WWII? Hitler hit the gypsy community hard, would Doom, despite not liking the Avengers, have respect for Steve for what he accomplished against the Nazi's?"

So that's why I'm bringing it up.

You know, I was about to bring up that whole "definition of respect" thing.
Course, with Doom, there's a bit of hypocrisy, as he considers himself an honorable man. And while he has no equal, there is no honor without respect.

But you're right, it has nothing to do with WWII. Trying to figure out Doom's connections to WWII at this point are a continuity headache, anyway. Sliding timeline, it'd be respecting a guy for maybe rescuing your grandparents. Too much time.

But I hope we can at least agree that he respects Cap more than Iron Man.

[StoneGold]

Dude. He told Cap he wasn't capable of thought! I think that's a diss in any language. I don't know ... I just don't see Cap and Doc Doom at the same level at all. And IF Doom respects anyone, it's Richards or Namor or ... maybe T'challa.

Yes, because Doom is a dick. And Cap said he'd rather buddy up with Satan than Doom. Doesn't mean he doesn't command some respect from Cap. Like I said, during Waid's Man Without a Country arc, Latveria was the first place he went after being deported -- and Doom helped him out. Hardly seems like the kind of thing that would happen in a respect-less relationship.

[Rheged]

They're all Doombots, aren't they?

But hey, it's the same Doom you were using as your example.

As for Namor, I seem to recall them usually starting out with Doom promising to help Namor recover his kingdom and then not, or zapping him with the Purple Man ray or some such.

I believe you brought in the Doombots first. :wink:

Yes, it IS the same Doom from SVTU. So, how do you reconcile them? They clearly have different opinions concerning Cap. I think it's far more likely, given Doom's track record, that he thinks Cap can be manipulated into becoming an asset to serve Doom.


Yes, because Doom is a dick. And Cap said he'd rather buddy up with Satan than Doom. Doesn't mean he doesn't command some respect from Cap. Like I said, during Waid's Man Without a Country arc, Latveria was the first place he went after being deported -- and Doom helped him out. Hardly seems like the kind of thing that would happen in a respect-less relationship.

And are you dick to people you respect? Again, I don't think so. And sure, Doom's willing to 'help' people out. But that doesn't mean he respects them. In fact, the opposite. For a power monger like Doom, asking for help, immediately puts you in a position of LESS respect. Doing something for Cap, puts Cap in his debt, and allows Doom to show himself as superior.

[Rheged]

See, I don't think that recognizing a formidable opponent equals respect. I never said that Doom doesn't recognize both the position Steve has as an important member of the superhero community and his battle prowess. He has respect for his skills, maybe, but I don't think Doom respects anyone as a person. As said, for me, respect would imply Doom seeing Steve (or anyone else) as his equal, which I don't think he does. So it depends on how you define the term.

And the point about Nazis was because of OP: "Basically which villains respect Steve for what he did in WWII? Hitler hit the gypsy community hard, would Doom, despite not liking the Avengers, have respect for Steve for what he accomplished against the Nazi's?"

So that's why I'm bringing it up.

Yes! I think Doom recognizes and accounts for the skills of his opponents. That doesn't mean respect. And yes, I think this may boil to differing ideas of what constitutes 'respect.'

[Iron Maiden]

See, that would be plugging in words that weren't used. If Doom wanted a sidekick, he'd take a sidekick. Which is what usually happened with Namor -- he'd brainwash him or trick him in some fashion. Not so here.


Besides, Cap had saved his life a couple panels earlier.


And Doom had saved him from drowning right after because his sense of honor, eccentric and inconstant though it may be at times, demanded it. I think this is the common element that the is sometimes recognized between the two of them. In the "Man Without a Country" arc that Stony mentions, it is quite telling that Steve walked across the Latverian border and gained an immediate audience with Victor. In the first part, it shows that Steve respected him enough to recognize that Doom would hold up to his part and secondly that Doom trusts him to handle things on his end and gives him transport in his own private flagship on top of that. Cap was using his Nomad costume at the time but conveniently Doom had a new Captain America costume readily available for him to change into. Makes you wonder if Doom does a little cosplay in his private moments :wink:

Cap also got a rare glimpse into how Doom at times does show some genuine concern for his fellow gypsies, or at least for faithful Boris. It could be why Cap thought that he could trust Doom to take care of business in a one on one with the Skull and not end up teaming up with him. Thinking back to Secret Wars, it was probably a wise decision on the part of the heroes that the chose Captain America to go talk to Doom after he had ascended to godhood. He doesn't have nearly the baggage in dealings with Doom that Reed has.


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y195/IronMaiden99/MB%20comic%20Scans/SVTU%20images/SVTU11_pg17.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y195/IronMaiden99/MB%20comic%20Scans/SVTU%20images/SVTU11_pg18.jpg

[Iron Maiden]

Yes! I think Doom recognizes and accounts for the skills of his opponents. That doesn't mean respect. And yes, I think this may boil to differing ideas of what constitutes 'respect.'

Someone else here on the boards made an apt comparison (unfortunately I can't recall who!) in that Doom has personality quite similar to House. And yeah, he can be real dick to EVERYONE. But he still respects his "Watson", his best friend Wilson.

[Hrist]

You know, I was about to bring up that whole "definition of respect" thing.
Course, with Doom, there's a bit of hypocrisy, as he considers himself an honorable man. And while he has no equal, there is no honor without respect.

But you're right, it has nothing to do with WWII. Trying to figure out Doom's connections to WWII at this point are a continuity headache, anyway. Sliding timeline, it'd be respecting a guy for maybe rescuing your grandparents. Too much time.

But I hope we can at least agree that he respects Cap more than Iron Man.

Yeah, we can.

I'll also say that there's definitely room for interpretation re: Doom and respect. The degree to which he's truly an honorable man can vary between stories, and there are a ton of Doombots running around.

[DoomScribe]

Respect doesn't have to be an acknowledgement of one's equal or even superior. You can respect a horse for his speed, a bear for his strength, the lion for his courage, etc. Doom is smart enough to recognize the skills an opponent (or ally) brings to the table, and I have no doubt he respects that. He also can afford to pass judgement, possessing the better in many regards, and evaluating his own skill set as the superior. And he uses that knowledge to plan, always one step ahead. He can't do that unless he acknowledges the powers he's facing.

In the original Secret Wars, when Captain America was presented to the all powerful Doom, and Doom destroyed him, it was the tiniest fragment of a doubt that beat Doom. It was Doom knowing that Captain America had steadfastly prevailed so many times due to his skills and courage, with the Beyonder (hiding within Klaw) using that doubt against Doom like a knife, that caused Doom's power to subconsciously reanimate or resuccitate Cap. So Captain America kept coming, everytime he was destroyed by Doom the doubt he had allowed Cap to reappear and continue the fight, time and time again, until the Beyonder finally regained his powers and cast Doom out.

You have to think that within Doom's psyche is that tiniest fraction of doubt, that makes him human, but allows him to respect his foes also.

[DrDoom616]

Does Dr. Doom respect Steve Rogers?

Yes I do :evilsmile:

[StoneGold]

I believe you brought in the Doombots first. :wink:

Yes, it IS the same Doom from SVTU. So, how do you reconcile them? They clearly have different opinions concerning Cap. I think it's far more likely, given Doom's track record, that he thinks Cap can be manipulated into becoming an asset to serve Doom.



And are you dick to people you respect? Again, I don't think so. And sure, Doom's willing to 'help' people out. But that doesn't mean he respects them. In fact, the opposite. For a power monger like Doom, asking for help, immediately puts you in a position of LESS respect. Doing something for Cap, puts Cap in his debt, and allows Doom to show himself as superior.

Other people answered this quite well, so what they all said.

Basically, it's not a binary -- the answer isn't respect/not respect. There are degrees of everything. And the two men hold a certain respect for each other. Is it all encompassing? No. Is Doom still a passive/aggressive douchebag? Oh, you bet your ass. But you'd have to be an idiot to respect no one.

[Crawford]

I think Doom respects Cap enough to handle his business, providing Cap with his traditional uniform and shield seems to indicate this, but whether or not he respects him further than that, I couldn't say

[Rheged]

Respect doesn't have to be an acknowledgement of one's equal or even superior. You can respect a horse for his speed, a bear for his strength, the lion for his courage, etc. Doom is smart enough to recognize the skills an opponent (or ally) brings to the table, and I have no doubt he respects that. He also can afford to pass judgement, possessing the better in many regards, and evaluating his own skill set as the superior. And he uses that knowledge to plan, always one step ahead. He can't do that unless he acknowledges the powers he's facing.

Actually, in your animal examples, you are respecting traits that ARE superior or equal to your own. No one 'respects' inferior traits. I can't say I've seen anyone posting how they respect someone's badly drawn images or trite dialog or general stupidity. Respect implies equality or superiority.

Likewise, you can respect a certain trait or quality, but that doesn't mean you respect the person / animal. You can respect the SPEED of a race horse, but that doesn't mean you respect the horse, who can be as dumb as brick, crazy mean, and is somewhat of an overbred hothouse flower that requires an inordinate amount of care. Now, I tend to think of respecting a trait more in line with acknowledgment rather than respect per se, but I do understand the word is used that way.

So, yes, I agree with you that Doom 'respects' the skills of his foes, like Captain America, but I don't think he respects the people themselves.

[Rheged]

Cap was using his Nomad costume at the time but conveniently Doom had a new Captain America costume readily available for him to change into. Makes you wonder if Doom does a little cosplay in his private moments :wink:

:eek:

Oh my ... LOL!

[Drdmx]

Does he respect him enough to call him sir? Maybe not. But I think Victor definitely respects him as an adversary and credible threat. Cant mess with Cap...

[XPac]

Does he respect him enough to call him sir? Maybe not. But I think Victor definitely respects him as an adversary and credible threat. Cant mess with Cap...

I recall Leader saying in Fall of the Hulks that the good guys lost their greatest hero when Cap died.

I'm not sure how many times, if any, Leader threw down with Steve... but I think it's a good indicator that the general consensus for both villains and heroes is that Steve is the most respected hero on the planet.

Cap very presence alone often demands that level of prescence when he walks in a room, frankly the same way Doom does. I think both know that they are considered the top hero and villain on the planet (even though Steve would never admit it about himself).

[Iron Maiden]

I recall Leader saying in Fall of the Hulks that the good guys lost their greatest hero when Cap died.

I'm not sure how many times, if any, Leader threw down with Steve... but I think it's a good indicator that the general consensus for both villains and heroes is that Steve is the most respected hero on the planet.

Cap very presence alone often demands that level of prescence when he walks in a room, frankly the same way Doom does. I think both know that they are considered the top hero and villain on the planet (even though Steve would never admit it about himself).

At least that's pretty much how things played out in Secret Wars...Cap took charge of the heroes side (and Reed didn't contest that) and Doom was the one the villains looked to for leadership, even though Doom tried to bolt to the other side at the very beginning. Initially he was kind of rejected by both sides.

[mcgaffer]

So which other villains respect what Steve did in WWII? I can kind of see Juggernaut and Absorbing Man having respect for his achievemants, even though they don't like him now.

[Rheged]

I recall Leader saying in Fall of the Hulks that the good guys lost their greatest hero when Cap died.

I'm not sure how many times, if any, Leader threw down with Steve... but I think it's a good indicator that the general consensus for both villains and heroes is that Steve is the most respected hero on the planet.

Cap very presence alone often demands that level of prescence when he walks in a room, frankly the same way Doom does. I think both know that they are considered the top hero and villain on the planet (even though Steve would never admit it about himself).

Okay, the top hero on the PLANET? I think this is a bit extreme, and very country centric. Yes, I realize Marvel U is extremely US centered, but that doesn't mean everyone in the world is going to be gaga over Captain America. Just the opposite, I would think. I'm willing to bet, no one in Latveria, Atlantis, Wakanda not to mention a quite a few real countries, thinks Steve Rogers is the top hero on the planet.

And of course, cosmic wise, Captain America doesn't even rate.

[K Von Doom]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y195/IronMaiden99/MB%20comic%20Scans/SVTU%20images/SVTU11_pg18.jpg


I like Doom's last line on this page.

Doom can feel respect for people, despite being a selfish egomaniac. When he was older, he's admitted to respecting the Aged Genghis – a man he almost beat to death when he was younger.

I believe Doom has a high regard for Captain America in comparison to other heroes. But I wouldn't go far as to say Doom respects him because Captain America doesn't have any qualities that Doom values with the exception of leadership without question. Doom may envy the fact that everyone follows Captain America without question; despite him not having any real power or superior intellect.

[StoneGold]

Okay, the top hero on the PLANET? I think this is a bit extreme, and very country centric. Yes, I realize Marvel U is extremely US centered, but that doesn't mean everyone in the world is going to be gaga over Captain America. Just the opposite, I would think. I'm willing to bet, no one in Latveria, Atlantis, Wakanda not to mention a quite a few real countries, thinks Steve Rogers is the top hero on the planet.

And of course, cosmic wise, Captain America doesn't even rate.

Actually, I'm pretty sure you can find bits where Namor and T'Challa say that if they'll follow any man, it's Captain America.

As for cosmic, we are talking about the one human the Supreme Intelligence tried to absorb into his consciousness, who drew the attention of the Elder the Contemplator, who single-handedly defeated Korvac, held Mjolnir, wielded the full brunt of the Nova Force. And that's not counting leading the team that ended the first Kree/Skrull War, Galactic Storm, etc.


Or to put it another way, they didn't name the ship in Guardians of the Galaxy the Cyclops.

[StoneGold]

So which other villains respect what Steve did in WWII? I can kind of see Juggernaut and Absorbing Man having respect for his achievemants, even though they don't like him now.

Absorbing Man's never really had any respect for anyone. He's a two-bit sociopath. Marko... depends who is writing just how evil he is that week. But again, especially as moving timeline happens, the respect becomes more of an abstract.


But, y'know, Magneto. And you can chalk up the times where Maggie's been all "Destroy him!" to the old magnetic bipolar thing. Because oh man, did Kirby ever write him as kill crazy in that old Cap annual!

[Monty_Cristo]

So which other villains respect what Steve did in WWII? I can kind of see Juggernaut and Absorbing Man having respect for his achievemants, even though they don't like him now.

it's funny you should use two villains who were in the employ of the Red Skull. i think Cap might have actually called Absorbing Man out on it too; asking why he'd work for a nazi.

[Monty_Cristo]

the closest you're going to get respect-wise from Doom is envy. he's certainly capable of envying qualities in others. i'm sure that he recognizes that Steve Rogers is naturally charismatic. Cap's reputation isn't based upon being the most powerful or making others fear him. i'm sure Doom would want the ability to persuade others without flashy displays of power or threats. if Steve had Doom's intellect, the Marvel Universe would be a real Utopia.

[Alan2099]

Absorbing Man's never really had any respect for anyone. He's a two-bit sociopath. Marko... depends who is writing just how evil he is that week. But again, especially as moving timeline happens, the respect becomes more of an abstract.

Absorbing Man always respected Thunderstrike.

[BYC]

...

Doom says only he knows the "Doom-codes".

...

Doom-codes.

[XPac]

Okay, the top hero on the PLANET? I think this is a bit extreme, and very country centric. Yes, I realize Marvel U is extremely US centered, but that doesn't mean everyone in the world is going to be gaga over Captain America. Just the opposite, I would think. I'm willing to bet, no one in Latveria, Atlantis, Wakanda not to mention a quite a few real countries, thinks Steve Rogers is the top hero on the planet.

And of course, cosmic wise, Captain America doesn't even rate.

It's not nothing to do with being US centric... plain and simple, Steve is just that awesome.

He's a guy that will get gods and kings to ask "how high" when he asks them to jump. Including the kings of several of the nations you just mentioned. If you ask Namor or T'Challa who the greatest hero on the planet is, I'd bet money they'd say Steve without a second though.

[CaptainOtter]

People respect Steve because hes practically a living saint, and always does the right thing. Yeah, they also respect his abilities, his unrelenting determination, and his leadership abilities, but at the end of the day its the fact that he ALWAYS does what is moral that wins over people.

Doom has a very different view of morality. He couldn't care less about people, and is willing to cross any line to accomplish his goals. So no, I don't see him recognizing how good a person Steve is, or show him respect as a result.

[Daggdag]

I would hope not, otherwise, why just Steve and not other characters that fought against Nazi's in World War 2. His role, may have been bigger than the average solider but to me, its a perspectives thing. Villains tend to have warped perspectives. I do think some would have respect and admiration for Cap, as well as jealousy and spite.

Doom may see him as a more worthy than most, adversary of sorts, but respect... I guess depends how much respect. Like another poster just before said, Doom is too arrogant really to respect many that much. If at all.

I agree..why noit respect Logan? He fought in WW2....

[StoneGold]

I agree..why noit respect Logan? He fought in WW2....

But know one knows that. He was special ops. And apparently working both sides of the fence.

[Drdmx]

I think Caps very precense demands respect and an "aww damn, he's here!" from any oppenents he may face. Not just that he takes charge in a situation, but how formidable he is with nothing other than a shield and slightly enhanced strength.

Two times come to mind -

When the heroes were fighting Onslaught, the Xmen had been decimated, but when the smoke clears, you see the shield through the dust and the rest of the heroes had shown up. His precense can just command almost any scenario.


Also, during the Invaders, who else could control Namor? Who else could make Namor and the Human Torch get along?

[Rheged]

Actually, I'm pretty sure you can find bits where Namor and T'Challa say that if they'll follow any man, it's Captain America.

As for cosmic, we are talking about the one human the Supreme Intelligence tried to absorb into his consciousness, who drew the attention of the Elder the Contemplator, who single-handedly defeated Korvac, held Mjolnir, wielded the full brunt of the Nova Force. And that's not counting leading the team that ended the first Kree/Skrull War, Galactic Storm, etc.


Or to put it another way, they didn't name the ship in Guardians of the Galaxy the Cyclops.

Let's not drag Cyclops into this, please. He's another character that I think has been recently glorified beyond believability and his abilities. Nor do I particularly want to get into Cap and Namor's relationship and how it has been portrayed over the last 70 years.

Being the top hero of the planet is more than being a leader. There's plenty of people that follow Bush or Obama, including Cap, but that doesn't make either of them a hero, much less the top one. Cap is a living symbol of ONE country. His Cap costume is the American flag. Think beyond the borders of the country. Do you really think a place as isolated as Atlantis, the general populace even knows who Captain America is? Much less consider him anything other than that surface worlder that's always dragging our prince into surface world problems? Ditto Wakanda. Ditto Britain. Ditto Russia. Or most other countries. They have their own heroes, so why would they pick another country's hero over their own?

And the same with the cosmic stuff. Yes, he did those things you said. But when the universe is in trouble, who did they call? Nova Corps, not Steve Rogers. Heck, recently they called Thanos! When the Shi'ar have problems it's the Imperial Guard ... or the X-Men. Steve is important to America and greatly respected there. But America is NOT the entire world, much less the universe. It does not take away from character in the least bit, if Steve Rogers is not universally 'respected.' Cause honestly, NO Marvel character is.

[Rheged]

It's not nothing to do with being US centric... plain and simple, Steve is just that awesome.



People respect Steve because hes practically a living saint, and always does the right thing.


I think Caps very precense demands respect and an "aww damn, he's here!" from any oppenents he may face.

O_o

I am not a member of the Church of St. Steve, so forgive me if I don't drink the kool-aid.

[SydneyFalco]

Pretty much all of what Cap stands for--altruism, the brotherhood of humanity, the coming together to make a greater good--is on the opposite side of the human spectrum from the villains, even the smart ones. Villains come in many types, but a disregard for the rights of others and a lack of empathy is common to all of them.

But I could see them maybe giving a few props to Punisher's ruthlessness, or Tony Stark or Reed Richard's ego-driven pragmatism and accomplishments.

http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac341/Type12point/CBRBanner.jpg

[Drdmx]

O_o

I am not a member of the Church of St. Steve, so forgive me if I don't drink the kool-aid.

Thanks for that awesome contribution.

[Alan2099]

O_o

I am not a member of the Church of St. Steve, so forgive me if I don't drink the kool-aid.
Well, you've obvuiously been drinking something


Being the top hero of the planet is more than being a leader. There's plenty of people that follow Bush or Obama, including Cap, but that doesn't make either of them a hero, much less the top one. Cap is a living symbol of ONE country. His Cap costume is the American flag. Think beyond the borders of the country. Do you really think a place as isolated as Atlantis, the general populace even knows who Captain America is? Much less consider him anything other than that surface worlder that's always dragging our prince into surface world problems? Ditto Wakanda. Ditto Britain. Ditto Russia. Or most other countries. They have their own heroes, so why would they pick another country's hero over their own?
Actually it's been shown when Captain America has gone to other countries that he's about as respected there as well as his home country. Sure he wears the flag of one country, but he doesn't stand for ONLY America. Other nations recognize his place in history, vast career of heroics, and generally all around great guy status.

Although with that said, Japan still prefers the Fantastic Four.

And no. He's not universally respected. There are places that don't like any heroes. There are people in America that hate the guy, but generally with people that look up to the super types, Cap is in that group.


Pretty much all of what Cap stands for--altruism, the brotherhood of humanity, the coming together to make a greater good--is on the opposite side of the human spectrum from the villains, even the smart ones. Villains come in many types, but a disregard for the rights of others and a lack of empathy is common to all of them.
At the same time, Doom is very much about the welfare of others and greater good. It's just that most people don't agree with his particular takes on the subject. He very much believes that people need to come together and that sometimes people have to sacrifice themselves for the greater good. He just also belives that that particualr greater good is Doom ruling the World.

[StoneGold]

Let's not drag Cyclops into this, please. He's another character that I think has been recently glorified beyond believability and his abilities. Nor do I particularly want to get into Cap and Namor's relationship and how it has been portrayed over the last 70 years.


So basically, let's ignore everything that doesn't suit your agenda. Got it.


Being the top hero of the planet is more than being a leader. There's plenty of people that follow Bush or Obama, including Cap, but that doesn't make either of them a hero, much less the top one. Cap is a living symbol of ONE country. His Cap costume is the American flag. Think beyond the borders of the country. Do you really think a place as isolated as Atlantis, the general populace even knows who Captain America is? Much less consider him anything other than that surface worlder that's always dragging our prince into surface world problems? Ditto Wakanda. Ditto Britain. Ditto Russia. Or most other countries. They have their own heroes, so why would they pick another country's hero over their own?


Which isn't what you asked. You asked if anyone in those countries would respect Cap. Yes. The leaders of those countries who are also superheroes who have worked with Cap and know that he is indeed The Man.


And the same with the cosmic stuff. Yes, he did those things you said. But when the universe is in trouble, who did they call? Nova Corps, not Steve Rogers. Heck, recently they called Thanos! When the Shi'ar have problems it's the Imperial Guard ... or the X-Men. Steve is important to America and greatly respected there. But America is NOT the entire world, much less the universe. It does not take away from character in the least bit, if Steve Rogers is not universally 'respected.' Cause honestly, NO Marvel character is.

They never call the Nova Corps. Nova Corps just happens to be there. Worldmind sticking its nose in other races business. No one called Thanos, either, he just showed up and the Guardians figured they could use him.

You know, the same Guardians team with the future man who hero worships Captain America to the point of taking a similar name and carrying his time-displaced shield.

In any event, Steve isn't around because it isn't his book. He's been involved in plenty of cosmic stuff -- hell, he led the team that took on Thanos in Infinity Gauntlet. You don't get much more cosmic than that. But no, that does not mean he's going to be involved in every cosmic adventure, because that's not his thing, and there are other characters that need to be the stars of their books.

Now that said, if Cap did show up in the latest Annihilation, you know that Quasar, Nova, Major Victory, potentially Starhawk... I think that's all that have worked with him, would be asking him how high when he said jump.

[Crawford]

SVTU was mentioned earlier on in the thread, here is the page

[Jmacq1]

O_o

I am not a member of the Church of St. Steve, so forgive me if I don't drink the kool-aid.

This is definitely true, given that you feel the need to deny several decades of in-comic evidence that Steve Rogers is as close to a "universally respected" hero as Marvel gets.

Yes, even in countries besides America.

Yes, even in isolated places like Wakanda and Atlantis (where their respective rulers have a great deal of respect for him).

This is not to say that the locals might not like and respect their local heroes MORE, but Cap still has earned a strong measure of respect throughout much of the world, and many of those "local heroes" readily defer to Cap when the situation is most dire.

Trying to turn Cap into a "nationalist" icon is ignoring what Captain America is about. Captain America is about embodying ideals, not a nation. Ideals that are not unique to or aspired to by America alone (even if they are commonly referred to as "American Ideals."), and because of that he is respected in other places that share those ideals.

As for villains that respect Cap? Well, Batroc the Leaper makes no secret of it. Doom acknowledges his resourcefulness, courage, and determination (which is about as close to respect as Doom ever gets). Baron Zemo views him as a worthy opponent. Norman Osborn seemed rather desperate to have "his own Captain America" and readily acknowledged that his own attempts (His Iron Patriot guise and the American Son project) didn't measure up.

I'd say a great many villains tend to view him as either a "worthy opponent" or "someone to try to steer clear of." Certainly not all, though.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

This is definitely true, given that you feel the need to deny several decades of in-comic evidence that Steve Rogers is as close to a "universally respected" hero as Marvel gets.

Yes, even in countries besides America.

Yes, even in isolated places like Wakanda and Atlantis (where their respective rulers have a great deal of respect for him).

This is not to say that the locals might not like and respect their local heroes MORE, but Cap still has earned a strong measure of respect throughout much of the world, and many of those "local heroes" readily defer to Cap when the situation is most dire.

Trying to turn Cap into a "nationalist" icon is ignoring what Captain America is about. Captain America is about embodying ideals, not a nation. Ideals that are not unique to or aspired to by America alone (even if they are commonly referred to as "American Ideals."), and because of that he is respected in other places that share those ideals.

As for villains that respect Cap? Well, Batroc the Leaper makes no secret of it. Doom acknowledges his resourcefulness, courage, and determination (which is about as close to respect as Doom ever gets). Baron Zemo views him as a worthy opponent. Norman Osborn seemed rather desperate to have "his own Captain America" and readily acknowledged that his own attempts (His Iron Patriot guise and the American Son project) didn't measure up.

I'd say a great many villains tend to view him as either a "worthy opponent" or "someone to try to steer clear of." Certainly not all, though.

Some would see Cap as a nationalist symbol, regardless of his character, I doubt he would be well liked in the Middle East.

I think whether a villain respects or doesn't respects Cap depends how evil they are. Batroc isn't very evil, so he respects Cap. However both Scarecrow and Mr. Hyde seem have no respect for Cap, they seem only to harbor hatred towards him, likely because those two are psychopaths with no redeeming values. Also Cap has met MODOK and he seems to have no respect for Cap. Even Norman trying to create his own Cap merely acknowledges that he is popular, not that Norman respects him. Somone said that the Leader respected Cap because he said the heroes suffered a great loss, that sounds like a mere statement of fact rather then a sign of respect. Leader has no reason to respect Cap, I doubt he considers himself a US citizen, he likely see Cap as obsolete.

Plus "steering clear" of Cap doesn't convey respect per say, it merely acknowledges him as a threat that's best left avoided.

It seems like there would be a lot of villains who wouldn't care about Cap's war record, I doubt Mysterio would respect for that reason.

[LordEd1976]

In Secret Wars, Cap risked life and limb to rescue the villians still in the dungeon as the headquarters is falling apart. I wonder if any of the guys he rescued respect him?

I could see someone like Thunderball, Molecule Man, Volcana, and Doc Ock respecting Cap for doing that.

[AllisterH]

It's the Batman effect.

Annyoing at times and I always wonder why comic book writers assume that "American Ideals" are actually ones that most of the world aspire to.

Really American-centric.