Was the Avengers/Defenders War the first real Marvel crossover story?

[Ken Ashcroft]

I'm curious to find out whether this is true. Obviously you had characters guest starring in other books before that and the story might even be finished off the next month in the guest stars own book but was the Avengers/Defenders war which started off in Avengers#115 then Defenders #8 and then back and forth between the two titles for 12 chapters and several months, the first real crossover story?

[Blackhawkk]

Roy Thomas did a X-Men/Avengers crossover around 1967. I can't remember the exact issues but I think it was X-Men #45 with Cyclops fighting Quicksilver and it continued into the Avenger title.

There were probably others but it's late and I can't think any more.

[marshal99]

Yeah , x-men 45 & avengers 53.

http://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/97792366288.45.gifhttp://image2.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/05815547774.53.gif

The entire x-men team did appeared in avengers 110 & 111 to fight magneto but it did not crossover into the x-men title.

In the 70s , one arc of super-villains team-up crossover into 3 issues of the avengers and one arc of SVTU finished up in the champions.

[JulianPerez]

Actually this is a pretty interesting observation.

If you define a modern-day crossover story as being:

1) An "event" comic that's a "big deal" featuring high-stakes, multiple villains;

2) Something that spreads over multiple comic titles;

Then it may be likely that while there have been previous crossover comics in Marvel that are EITHER a large, well-advertised "event" and a big threat and multiple villains (e.g. the Wedding of Reed and Sue), OR have a story that spreads over multiple comics (e.g. all the various team-ups between heroes and teams including the X-Men/Avengers crossover) then the Avengers/Defenders War is the first story to have BOTH of these crucial characteristics.

[Kirk G]

Yes, this Avengers/Defenders war is considered the first cross-over.

The earlier Avengers/X-men cross-over was close, but you really didn't need to read the X-men issue to follow the story. You got enough of the information in the Avengers issue to make it make sense.

That whole Avengers/Magneto/Wanda/Quicksilver arc was one of the first long form stories that crossed from one series title into another series title.

But now that I think about it, there were some aspects of the Kree-Skrull war that crossed over from the Avengers to the Inhumans title that was running in Astonishing Tales split book, that though it didn't require you to buy the other title, certain pulled those events into one larger story that was being woven between titles in the Marvel Universe.

That might have been more then big event, than a full out cross-over.

[OldSchoolfan]

I actually think that the first Huge cross over story was in Avengers 3,4,5, and FF #25-26.

While each issue tells a complete tale(except the two FF ones) there is this reoccurring theme of containing the Hulk. The books can be enjoyed on a stand alone basis but they still have an epic feel to them. This gets my vote as being the first.


The coolest crossover I saw was Iron Man, Daredevil and SubMariner. It's not a major one but it was still neat as a fourth grader to get all that story in one month.

I also remember a key Hulk/Avengers crossover I think it was Avengers 88 or so. I don't remember what issue of the Hulk it was. It was where Hulk met Jarella. It was one of the better attempts by Harlin Ellison to do comics, in my opinion.

[StoneGold]

http://www.comicseeker.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/224038-19137-116706-1-marvel-mystery-comic_super.jpg

[SuperCooper]

I actually think that the first Huge cross over story was in Avengers 3,4,5, and FF #25-26.

While each issue tells a complete tale(except the two FF ones) there is this reoccurring theme of containing the Hulk. The books can be enjoyed on a stand alone basis but they still have an epic feel to them. This gets my vote as being the first.

That's a cool way of looking at it, and I would have to agree. I believe there was also an issue of the Hulk where he gets tried by the US government; it featured the Fantastic Four, Avengers, Spider-Man and Daredevil.

[Kirk G]

I actually think that the first Huge cross over story was in Avengers 3,4,5, and FF #25-26.


Yeah, I remember that one as well, but I only had FF #25 for years and years as a kid...so I knew the pay-off was coming in #26, but could never find it. The Avengers seem to be hot on the Hulk's tail/trail so it looks like it's pretty early on in the series, but I never knew how early. I considered this as a two-parter, more than a cross-over.



The coolest crossover I saw was Iron Man, Daredevil and SubMariner. It's not a major one but it was still neat as a fourth grader to get all that story in one month.

That was Daredevil #7 and forms the launching point for the Tales to Astonish run of Subby back in the silver age. Also, Stan Lee has said on multiple occassions that that is his favorite story, because no matter who the fan roots for, he can understand where the other one is coming from.


I also remember a key Hulk/Avengers crossover I think it was Avengers 88 or so. I don't remember what issue of the Hulk it was. It was where Hulk met Jarella. It was one of the better attempts by Harlin Ellison to do comics, in my opinion.

Yeah, but the Hulk story, as important as it is to the Hulk mythos, is awkward as well, due to the forced inclusion of all of the titles from Harlan's books. "Tick Tock said the Harlequin"...sheesh!

[Kirk G]

That's a cool way of looking at it, and I would have to agree. I believe there was also an issue of the Hulk where he gets tried by the US government; it featured the Fantastic Four, Avengers, Spider-Man and Daredevil.

I believe that is the two-parter that runs Hulk #152-153...with the trial lasting one full issue. I don't believe that's a cross over, but it is cock-filled with guestars.

[Blackhawkk]

http://www.comicseeker.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/224038-19137-116706-1-marvel-mystery-comic_super.jpg

I was thinking of this too. Definitely the first Marvel crossover.

Great story too. Subby rampaging thru New York causing all sorts of destruction and the Human Torch always a minute behind him. The ending was kind of flat, though.

They would battle again in Human Torch #5 which would even be more bombastic (Subby floods New York City!) and more involved.

[Joe Acro]

http://www.comicseeker.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/224038-19137-116706-1-marvel-mystery-comic_super.jpg
While that came immediately to my mind as well, it doesn't seem to fit that notion of switching between comics. It's just one issue.

[StoneGold]

While that came immediately to my mind as well, it doesn't seem to fit that notion of switching between comics. It's just one issue.

Yeah, but it was a book they both starred in in separate features.

[OldSchoolfan]

Yeah, I remember that one as well, but I only had FF #25 for years and years as a kid...so I knew the pay-off was coming in #26, but could never find it. The Avengers seem to be hot on the Hulk's tail/trail so it looks like it's pretty early on in the series, but I never knew how early. I considered this as a two-parter, more than a cross-over.

I am assuming you did find it...that particular issue can be pretty expensive. It was also reprinted in Treasury edition format. The art was sketchy, but I hear Jack cranked it out like over a weekend or something, to hit a deadline.



That was Daredevil #7 and forms the launching point for the Tales to Astonish run of Subby back in the silver age. Also, Stan Lee has said on multiple occassions that that is his favorite story, because no matter who the fan roots for, he can understand where the other one is coming from.

I loved the Wood art in that book. I wish he had stayed at Marvel....The story I was thinking of actually came later, it wasn't Iron Man that crossed over, it was Spiderman, Namor and DD. The cross over was in DD 77, Subby 39-40.



Yeah, but the Hulk story, as important as it is to the Hulk mythos, is awkward as well, due to the forced inclusion of all of the titles from Harlan's books. "Tick Tock said the Harlequin"...sheesh!

Sheesh is right! But the issue gave us Jarella. Do you remember the issue number?

[Kirk G]

I am assuming you did find it...that particular issue can be pretty expensive. It was also reprinted in Treasury edition format. The art was sketchy, but I hear Jack cranked it out like over a weekend or something, to hit a deadline.

I think the two parter (#25-26) was reprinted in FF Annual #4, but I could be mistaken. Also, I'm sure that it showed up in Marvel Collector Items Classic...cause I KNOW the issue with the Submariner and Dr. Strange had a re-created cover by Kirby... and I know there was a similar original cover for Dr. Doom in #24 when it was reprinted... perhaps they skipped over the two-parter or else it showed up as an annual or something, cause I don't remember either cover in Marvel Collector Item Classics.

I can't recall when or why I found the second half of the story, but it really features the Avengers more prominently. I think just recently, I may have scored the original issue on ebay... but I'm still tracking down #28 X-men cross-over and issues prior to about #15.

But the best thing is that they've all been reprinted in Marvel Masterworks, Essential FF volumes #1 & 2 and in the FF Omnibus, as well. So there's NO excuse for any fan having missed out of the early years of the FF.

I do recall reading and re-reading my earliest FF over and over again cause I got them at a school carnival sale for a nickle a piece in 1966. The included #18, 22, 25, 33,36, 39, 44-50 Looking back at it, it's probably a function of some kid who was getting visitation rights to his dad's house once every three months, and picked up whatever was on the rack when they went to the store. That would explain why the pattern was roughly every third issue... which also explained why the letters to the editor in the back of every issue lined up with the issue three months earlier (that was the lag time for sale, letter writing, mail, review, editorial approval, printing and sale again...3 month lag.)

In short, I knew that since #25 was a crisis on many fronts, #26 was going to be incredible... but I never saw it for YEARS...

[Kirk G]

The Hulk trial issues were Incredible Hulk #152 & 153.

The Avengers issue was #88...and leads into Hulk #148.

I just looked them up on Ebay.

[OldSchoolfan]

I remember my buddy bought two copies of Defenders 10 because Thor didn't fight the Hulk that often in those days.....he just loved the cover.

I have to admit that there are two Englehart stories I have good memories of....Cap 153-156 that explains who the 50's Cap is...and the Avengers/Defenders War.

The second one was really well organized and if you missed an issue, it wasn't too hard to get back into the story. I can't think of any other Marvel Crossovers that occurred between titles. Iron Man 18 led into and issue of Avengers one time also...but the funny part is they got the issue numbers wrong on the inside of Iron Man and Avengers both. So, this might have been the first multiple issue crossover between books.

Thanks for looking up the Hulk numbers....now I gotta track it down...along with a couple of issues of Sub-Mariner.