CBR: Cup O' Joe - Aug 20, 2010

[CBR News]

Tom Brevoort & Axel Alonso return to T&A to talk TRON/Marvel U variants, explain the end of "Daredevil," relaunch Doctor Bong, make monster sex tasteful and share loads of exclusive at from across the Marvel U!


Full article here (http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=27942).

[G. Wayne]

Alonso: Even "mature readers" comics should be subjected to editorial standards. Some years ago, I edited a story that featured a scene portraying the aftermath of a rape that was, to my mind, staged in a salacious manner. The rapist was a character the reader had been trained to cheer for – everything he did was, well, too cool for school. And there was nothing about the way the scene was staged to make them think any different about that character – the fact that he'd just violently raped a woman was just one more thing to add to his resume that made him look like a badass. After a discussion with the writer, we agreed and came up with a way to stage it so it didn't come off that way. So it gave the reader pause, took them out of their comfort zone.

Morbidly curious here, anyone know what book and character he's referring to?

[rogerio]

Lots of cool stuffs...:smile:

[TNT138]

am I the only one that thinks Apocalypse no longer has a place in the MU? I mean didn't the Celestials take him out last time? and didn't Cable take out his disembodied spirit thing when they separated it from Cyclops before that? and didn't he get taken out by Stryfe before that? and didn't he get taken out by cyclops before that?...

[Monty_Cristo]

am I the only one that thinks Apocalypse no longer has a place in the MU? I mean didn't the Celestials take him out last time? and didn't Cable take out his disembodied spirit thing when they separated it from Cyclops before that? and didn't he get taken out by Stryfe before that? and didn't he get taken out by cyclops before that?...

he'll stop once Squirrel Girl has defeated him.

[Expletive Deleted]

am I the only one that thinks Apocalypse no longer has a place in the MU?Absolutely.

Then again, I'm not a fan. The Simonsons' managed to get a couple of good stories out of him, but everyone else since . . . not so much.

[Monty_Cristo]

Morbidly curious here, anyone know what book and character he's referring to?

no clue. my guess would have been Bullseye.

[Expletive Deleted]

Morbidly curious here, anyone know what book and character he's referring to?I would guess it's something Vertigo-related.

[Trey]

no clue. my guess would have been Bullseye.

Daredevil/Bullseye by David Lapham?

eDIT: MY BAD, THAT WAS Daredevil vs Punisher. I bel;ieve Bullseye was in it too.

[onslaught616]

Awesome that my question was picked to be answered...too bad the answer was lame and pointless.

Come on guys..if you're gonna take the time to answer people's questions, give a real answer!

[charlesjbaserap]

I don't agree with the assessment that because they've been showing the Man Without Fear ads that it should have been the logical conclusion Daredevil's book was ending entirely. Captain America didn't end without Steve. Heck, Punisher kept going as Frankencastle. If I recall correctly, and I could be totally wrong, the last time they did something like this, "Is Character X the New Black Panther," NONE of the characters shown became the Black Panther in that first arc. Heck, Batman didn't end after Batman: RIP, nor did Superman after Death of Superman or Green Lantern after Emerald Twilight. And going back to Black Panther, T'Challa got taken out in the first issue of the last series and lost the mantle and the book continued through 12 issues, 6 issues of Doomwar, a quick story in Age of Heroes #4, and the upcoming Klaws of the Panther, none of which had the main BP in the role, so, Tom, don't give us that we should have seen it definitively as a foregone conclusion based on stupid teasers that more often than not are just smoke up our asses anyway.

I've been enjoying the hell out of Shadowland and the minis and everything and Daredevil jumped to my pull list for the first time in anticipation of the event and I expected a temporary shift, maybe continuing the book a la Captain America or any of the bazillion Batman books or Superman books. Iron Fist took the mantle for a while for Matt and the book went on. I'm shocked because of the recent renumbering (but they're right about how quick Avengers went away after its renumbering) and because the title was selling better than a lot of other books that haven't gotten axed. I hope they've got some big finish planned for this bad boy!

[andybmcd]

DOCTOR BONG!!!!!

The issue(s?) of the original Deadpool with him in them were so good. Let's see if anyone gets this Dr. Bong reference.

"That's their mutant power I believe"

This will be awesome!

[streator]

the iron man: viva las vegas answer is a joke. it's been more than just a few months since the book was possibly going to be finished; the third issue was canceled almost two years ago. there was never any recent plans to revisit it.

the first two issues weren't even that good, anyway...

[StoneGold]

I would guess it's something Vertigo-related.

Me too. I was thinking Cassidy. I'm pretty sure he raped someone, didn't he? I mean, besides Tulip, but that was a little different. Unless it was someone in 100 Bullets. Lono, maybe?

[Tom Brevoort]

Awesome that my question was picked to be answered...too bad the answer was lame and pointless.

Come on guys..if you're gonna take the time to answer people's questions, give a real answer!

Sorry you didn't care for the answer, but that was a real answer, more or less. No plans for Onslaught at the moment.

Tom B

[ian33407]

(...) If the teeming throngs of Alpha Flight fans that were ready to string us up last week go out and support this little project, maybe that will grease the wheels a little bit for a larger Alpha Flight series of one sort or another.


I'm okay for everything, and especially for an ALPHA FLIGHT ongoing AND an ALPHA FLIGHT FOREVER book...

under the condition that not making the same mistakes than for 'New Mutants' :
bringing back Doug and Lock in the current title IS a mistake, considering the up-coming of a Forever title releasing the most interesting era of the team ( cLAREMONT + sIENKIEWICZ ) who are...past. Having re-assembled the same line-up of characters for these two books ( one in the present, the other in the past ) can't even been called a mistake : this is amateurism...

From this point of view, Alpha Flight' returns is good new, but I'm not too confident...

[Tracks]

not much of an answer to my question, just advertisement.

[Scratchy]

I'm not sure how well Chaos War: Alpha Flight would have to sell to get an ongoing; after all Seagle's sold over 30000 and was canceled, Omega Flight hit over 50000 and was canceled prematurely.

I have no doubt a well-written well-drawn AF series would continue to do well.

McCann, Wells, Van Lente, Torres, a lot of good writers out there, and Jimenez on art, or someone equally good, like Clayton Henry, and AF would last another 300 issues before taking a breath.

How many AF proposals do you typically get from staff? :cool:

[Brian from Canada]

(...) [B]I'm okay for everything, and especially for an ALPHA FLIGHT ongoing AND an ALPHA FLIGHT FOREVER book... under the condition that not making the same mistakes than for 'New Mutants'

And therein lies the problem.

X-Men Forever is a fluke that survives on the assumption that there are lots of fans who think X-Men went off the rails with Claremont's departure and this is the way it should have been all along. Never mind the fact that none of the story is really what Claremont had planned when he left the book, nor the fact that Claremont needs to have this title because he's shown an inability to handle regular continuity books all that well either. But it's classic X-Men nevertheless, in the fact that all the characters he's kept in the forefront are (for better or worse) the key characters from the animated series and everyone can accept this as a PG-13 version of those cartoons before the grittier, grimier, darker versions of the real X-books.

However, this being the X-office, they can't let one success stand alone — I'm talking to you, Deadpool! :mad: — and they have to spin it out to more and more books. Thus we get X-Factor Forever and New Mutants Forever, both of which finish "one more story" by the writers of the past in ignorance of what's going on now. And what's going on now doesn't reflect characters that are well known beyond the original comics that have clearly moved in.

In other words: X-Men Forever is using characters that are still relatively close to what you may have seen in the cartoons and that makes your mind say "not real X-Men" (unless you're a Claremont diehard); the other two Forevers use characters that are only in comics and different that before, so you look at it and go "wtf?"

Forever has too many continuity links. What If? explicitly said it was not continuity with the rest of Marvel, Exiles identified it in the banner (and actions of the heroes), and Noir was definitely not typical superheroes. It's time Marvel started to identify books like Forever as non-continuity (or bind the others which are) to make it easier to know which universe is which.

Or else we'll get 12 year old kids asking Joe Q why Spider-Man isn't like Ultimate Spider-Man and neither is Amazing Spider-Man even though they are the same character because things just aren't the same. :wink:

[Brian from Canada]

I'm not sure how well Chaos War: Alpha Flight would have to sell to get an ongoing; after all Seagle's sold over 30000 and was canceled, Omega Flight hit over 50000 and was canceled prematurely.

And I get the sneaking suspicion it won't really have to do with numbers either. It's more of a comment to Marvel fans demanding Alpha Flight's return to actually go out and buy the book so that they can turn around and say, based on x number sold, the demand isn't just on the 'net.

Because, quite frankly, if you ask people on the 'net, you're bound to find a number who like things or dislike things without thinking them through.

[Brian from Canada]

am I the only one that thinks Apocalypse no longer has a place in the MU? I mean didn't the Celestials take him out last time? and didn't Cable take out his disembodied spirit thing when they separated it from Cyclops before that? and didn't he get taken out by Stryfe before that? and didn't he get taken out by cyclops before that?...

Apocalypse has to be THE WORST villain the X-Men have ever fought. Seriously. His two best stories are ones where he is the catalyst for other things — Angel not dying by suicide and Cyclops having to give up Nathan so that he can return to The X-Men childless like the cartoon coming on the air.

Every other story has him getting his ass handed to him by ONE mutant. Or a group of really weak ones. Like X-Cutioner's Song (Stryfe/Dark Riders), Age Of Apocalypse (Magneto), and The Twelve aftermath (Cable). Then it's Celestials.

Leave the guy alone. Or at least make the minions the real threat. Because they don't seem to be as powerless and stupid as Big Blue Lips himself. :tongue:

[Roquefort Raider]

We've been promoting "Who is the new Man Without Fear?" for something like three weeks now, and yet everybody is surprised that "Daredevil" is ending. One pretty clearly follows the other, so I was sort of taken aback by the response to the solicits being, "Oh my gosh! 'Daredevil' is ending!" What did you expect was going to happen when we asked who the new Man Without Fear would be?

Honestly? The same thing as every effin' time this stunt has been pulled : under pretense that this is going to be permanent, the hero is replaced by some other guy. Replacement-Man goes on for a few issues, and then the original is brought back.

While publicity is good, publishers shouldn't be surprised when readers fail to take the hype all that seriously!

[ian33407]

And therein lies the problem.

X-Men Forever is a fluke that survives on the assumption that there are lots of fans who think X-Men went off the rails with Claremont's departure and this is the way it should have been all along. Never mind the fact that none of the story is really what Claremont had planned when he left the book, nor the fact that Claremont needs to have this title because he's shown an inability to handle regular continuity books all that well either. But it's classic X-Men nevertheless, in the fact that all the characters he's kept in the forefront are (for better or worse) the key characters from the animated series and everyone can accept this as a PG-13 version of those cartoons before the grittier, grimier, darker versions of the real X-books.

However, this being the X-office, they can't let one success stand alone — I'm talking to you, Deadpool! :mad: — and they have to spin it out to more and more books. Thus we get X-Factor Forever and New Mutants Forever, both of which finish "one more story" by the writers of the past in ignorance of what's going on now. And what's going on now doesn't reflect characters that are well known beyond the original comics that have clearly moved in.

In other words: X-Men Forever is using characters that are still relatively close to what you may have seen in the cartoons and that makes your mind say "not real X-Men" (unless you're a Claremont diehard); the other two Forevers use characters that are only in comics and different that before, so you look at it and go "wtf?"

Forever has too many continuity links. What If? explicitly said it was not continuity with the rest of Marvel, Exiles identified it in the banner (and actions of the heroes), and Noir was definitely not typical superheroes. It's time Marvel started to identify books like Forever as non-continuity (or bind the others which are) to make it easier to know which universe is which.

Or else we'll get 12 year old kids asking Joe Q why Spider-Man isn't like Ultimate Spider-Man and neither is Amazing Spider-Man even though they are the same character because things just aren't the same. :wink:


I'm not sure to follow you in this way.
I'm the kind of reader who always waited something like the Forever line to appear. I would have prefered something more like 'Marvel Age' - but, eh- in which any authors could jump on his favourite characters at any period he will, which mean HERE WE GO for Golden Age' Silver Surfer stories by Paul Pope or Louise and Walt Simonson, HERE WE GO for the hidden episodes of SQUADRON SUPREME by Brian Michael Bendis and JRJR , or ALPHA FLIGHT hidden episodes, or DEFENDERS hidden episodes, every period, every characters line-up that will feet the creators the best for the stories they want to told, HERE WE GO HERE WE GO....

Instead of what we have the cast of the current NEW MUTANTS ongoing who is barely the same than the Forever title, which just mean...nothing, and that's why I hope if there is an ALPHA FLIGHT ongoing title, he will really tends towards the future ( yes, Flashback, Persuasion , Manikin, Nemesis, I'm thinking about you for the new line-up... ) and keep James Hudson for an ALPHA FLIGHT FOREVER book, with stories taking place before his death...

( I litteraly day-dreamed of Guardian in the sky draw by Walt Simonson, is that, uh... 'now whata mean ? )

[Tracks]

Honestly? The same thing as every effin' time this stunt has been pulled : under pretense that this is going to be permanent, the hero is replaced by some other guy. Replacement-Man goes on for a few issues, and then the original is brought back.

While publicity is good, publishers shouldn't be surprised when readers fail to take the hype all that seriously!

that's not true, look at Captain America, Black Panther, and the Sorcerer Supreme

[TOAA]

Apocalypse has to be THE WORST villain the X-Men have ever fought. Seriously. His two best stories are ones where he is the catalyst for other things — Angel not dying by suicide and Cyclops having to give up Nathan so that he can return to The X-Men childless like the cartoon coming on the air.

Every other story has him getting his ass handed to him by ONE mutant. Or a group of really weak ones. Like X-Cutioner's Song (Stryfe/Dark Riders), Age Of Apocalypse (Magneto), and The Twelve aftermath (Cable). Then it's Celestials.

Leave the guy alone. Or at least make the minions the real threat. Because they don't seem to be as powerless and stupid as Big Blue Lips himself. :tongue:

Could someone cralify a bit his motivation? As i understand he follows "survival of the fittest" way, if so, why he keaps ****ing with X-Men if they have defeated him time and time again? Maybe i`m missing some part but it`s rather stupid when i think about it.

[Brian from Canada]

I'm not sure to follow you in this way.
I'm the kind of reader who always waited something like the Forever line to appear. I would have prefered something more like 'Marvel Age' - but, eh- in which any authors could jump on his favourite characters at any period he will, which mean HERE WE GO for Golden Age' Silver Surfer stories by Paul Pope or Louise and Walt Simonson, HERE WE GO for the hidden episodes of SQUADRON SUPREME by Brian Michael Bendis and JRJR , or ALPHA FLIGHT hidden episodes, or DEFENDERS hidden episodes, every period, every characters line-up that will feet the creators the best for the stories they want to told, HERE WE GO HERE WE GO....

Instead of what we have the cast of the current NEW MUTANTS ongoing who is barely the same than the Forever title, which just mean...nothing

Um… Forever isn't a flashback or missing story title. It's a "What if?" title that continues from the end of one writer's run and assumes nothing has happened since then.

Had Forever BEEN a hidden episode title, I'd be excited too. There are some runs that could sandwich stories amongst other stories and just make them stronger.

But in the present version, you have to accept that there's EITHER New Mutants Forever OR the issues that followed plus X-Force plus the present volume and every guest appearance in between.

That's what Claremont's X-Men Forever does. It assumes Lobdell, Lee, Byrne, Nicienza, Waid, Seagle, Kelly, Harris, Davis, Morrison, Whedon, Casey — even himself — haven't written squat with the X-Men since vol. 2 #3, and now THIS is what's supposed to be the story of the X-Men.

People who like it that I've met tend to either be (a) those who think Claremont should never have been replaced, or (b) those who think it's more in keeping with the (animated) X-Men of their childhoods. But nowhere is X-Men Forever supposed to be continuity X-Men, and none of the other Forever books either.

Unless it's the original X-Men Forever six issue mini-series. And the twelve issue Avengers Forever maxi before it. THOSE two WERE continuity tales set to answer the continuity problems already in existence.

[Brian from Canada]

Could someone cralify a bit his motivation? As i understand he follows "survival of the fittest" way, if so, why he keaps ****ing with X-Men if they have defeated him time and time again? Maybe i`m missing some part but it`s rather stupid when i think about it.

Which is why people are complaining a bit: it is stupid. "Survival Of The Fittest" means you set tests so someone doesn't walk away — only the strong survive — but in Apocalypse's case it's more like start the fight and run away when it's clear your ass is gonna be handed to you by even the weakest of mutants.

His only other claim to fame is that he's the oldest of the mutants and gets regenerated a lot. But even then, for a guy who's seen the explosion of super powers, you'd think he'd be a little wary of things when even Dazzler beats the clearly-more-powerful Galactus.

[SeegRooster]

I don't agree with the assessment that because they've been showing the Man Without Fear ads that it should have been the logical conclusion Daredevil's book was ending entirely. Captain America didn't end without Steve. Heck, Punisher kept going as Frankencastle. If I recall correctly, and I could be totally wrong, the last time they did something like this, "Is Character X the New Black Panther," NONE of the characters shown became the Black Panther in that first arc. Heck, Batman didn't end after Batman: RIP, nor did Superman after Death of Superman or Green Lantern after Emerald Twilight. And going back to Black Panther, T'Challa got taken out in the first issue of the last series and lost the mantle and the book continued through 12 issues, 6 issues of Doomwar, a quick story in Age of Heroes #4, and the upcoming Klaws of the Panther, none of which had the main BP in the role, so, Tom, don't give us that we should have seen it definitively as a foregone conclusion based on stupid teasers that more often than not are just smoke up our asses anyway.

I absolutely agree with you. What a seriously lame ass response.
Because they ask "Who is the new Man Without Fear?", that means they're cancelling the series?! Is this guy that out of touch with Marvel comics that he would think the average Marvel reader would come to that conclusion?!? What a dip-sh!t!!
If DD is done, I'm done with Marvel. Period. Yeah, I know everybody makes threats. Well, I can use the extra money in my pocket anyway.

[mikekerr3]

that's not true, look at Captain America, Black Panther, and the Sorcerer Supreme

Does anyone actually think any of those changes are permanent? Steve will be Cap before the movie comes out