JMS Answers Some Reader Questions

[4PointOh]

On his Fans of JMS Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#%21/pages/Fans-of-J-Michael-Straczynski/139652459402959?ref=ts), JMS answered a few reader questions (the last one was mine):

A fan named Onai wrote:

Joe,

Your Wonder Woman run is the best since the Bing Bang: smart, edgy and dark! What's really missed in Diana's life?

1° Secret Identity, she doesn't really have one.

2° Add a partner, male and/or female, to build sexual tension.

3° Real Cool Gallery of SuperVillains.

4° No civilian life at all.

I added to Onai's list: Also missing is a distinct voice and personality.

JMS responded:

1) Correct, she doesn't really have another identity to hide behind, she is who she is;

2) right now she's fighting for her life and the lives of the other Amazons, so at this juncture there isn't time for a love interest;

3) we're still o...n the outer edge of the series of concentric circles she has to fight her way through to get to the truth, and as she goes deeper, she's going to encounter quite an amazing and new gallery of enemies;

4) no time for a civilian life.

As for her voice and personality...remember that we're literally just one issue into the story, much of which went into establishing the background to her situation. You'll get a lot more of her voice in 602, and she's in a way building her own voice and personality as she goes on this voyage of discovery.

[Lynda_Carter]

She don't???? What the hell happend to Diana Prince???

[Suffering Sappho!]

How many action movies also include a love interest in the plot? I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. If he doesn't think the character needs sexual tension, then he should just say it.

[WantsToBeLikeSuperman]

As the Spirit of Truth, I don't really think Wonder Woman should have a secret identity.

[Tiberious]

As the Spirit of Truth, I don't really think Wonder Woman should have a secret identity.

I think if she just went by "The Princess" she would come across more bad a$$ than "Wonder Woman". She's had no pr and no media coverage so no reason to take that moniker. The Guardians do call her "Princess". Plus the term princess is usually attributed to a girly delicate girl. Having this bad a$$ vengeance driven force called "The Princess" has a great dichotomy to it.

[Tiberious]

She don't???? What the hell happend to Diana Prince???

There is NO reason to take a false identity for this character. She is already in hiding so there is no reason to hide from the only people who know anything about her. Just like his comments say there is no need for a civilian id since she has no time for a lover and she spends every moment seeking revenge.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

2) right now she's fighting for her life and the lives of the other Amazons, so at this juncture there isn't time for a love interest;



How many action movies also include a love interest in the plot? I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. If he doesn't think the character needs sexual tension, then he should just say it.

Life laughs in the face of "I don´t have time for a love interest".

Even badass Jason Bourne fighting for his life stumbled upon Julia Stiles.

[americanwonder]

JMS responded:

1) Correct, she doesn't really have another identity to hide behind, she is who she is;

JMS wins some points from me right there. I like me a Diana who is who she is.


Even badass Jason Bourne fighting for his life stumbled upon Julia Stiles.

True, he did stumble upon Julia - but he didn't fall in love with her. He falls in love with Marie, played by Franka Potente in the movies. Just fyi. :wink:

[zryson]

well that was exciting. didnt really reveal much at all.

[the new sensation]

JMS, as enthralling as ever [!]. Still, I do approve of the no romance plot; no time or space for all that filler in the midst of this new world shes in.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

True, he did stumble upon Julia - but he didn't fall in love with her. He falls in love with Marie, played by Franka Potente in the movies. Just fyi. :wink:

Well, that completely invalidates my argument, then. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/550245/gallery/net/smilies/dry.gif

[Eliseu Gouveia]

well that was exciting. didnt really reveal much at all.

Look at the bright side, now you´´ll have nothing to complain about. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/550245/gallery/net/smilies/dry.gif :tongue:

[Wonder Watcher]

Well, that completely invalidates my argument, then. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/550245/gallery/net/smilies/dry.gifHardly, it means he actually had time for TWO romantic interludes.

[BnL]

I'm most bothered by the "all new villains" thing. If the intention is to give Wonder Woman a cool, lasting rogues gallery, then you've already failed if you're going to have her face nothing but new enemies. History has shown us that they won't stick around past this writer's run. Time would be better spent trying to build up characters like Cheetah and Dr. Cyber.

[Tiberious]

There are only so many pages a month. Which would bring in more readers - the Princess kicking all kinds of butt or her setting around pining over some boy?

Of course if she were to use sex to get information about the location of the Naked man or some of her sisters then that would be acceptable. Seduce one of the mercenaries and then once he's revealed what she needs to know she could snap his neck, get dressed and leave the corpse for his friends to find.

[Tiberious]

I'm most bothered by the "all new villains" thing. If the intention is to give Wonder Woman a cool, lasting rogues gallery, then you've already failed if you're going to have her face nothing but new enemies. History has shown us that they won't stick around past this writer's run. Time would be better spent trying to build up characters like Cheetah and Dr. Cyber.

This is why the Amazons are nameless and faceless except for the Queen who bravely killed herself. This is the reason the Gods left. This is the reason for the costume change. She spent 70 years not working so now they are going to make her work. Bringing back lame villains isn't going to increase sales. Only by introducing new exciting villains can you truly get the Ferrari out of the garage.

[KnightErrantJR]

Of course if she were to use sex to get information about the location of the Naked man or some of her sisters then that would be acceptable. Seduce one of the mercenaries and then once he's revealed what she needs to know she could snap his neck, get dressed and leave the corpse for his friends to find.

Yeah, that's what I want. Considering Diana was conceived as a role model to young girls . . .

"Remember girls, if you can't get want you want any other way, you can always use sex to win a fight! Just make sure to kill the guy afterwards, or else people might not respect you."
:frown:

[KnightErrantJR]

I'm most bothered by the "all new villains" thing. If the intention is to give Wonder Woman a cool, lasting rogues gallery, then you've already failed if you're going to have her face nothing but new enemies. History has shown us that they won't stick around past this writer's run. Time would be better spent trying to build up characters like Cheetah and Dr. Cyber.


JMS doesn't want to act like anything except "Bracelets, Lasso, Amazons, Island" are canon to the series. So this doesn't surprise me. I just don't know how its suppose to excite anyone that actually likes the character.

I was kind of interested in this series just to see where it was going, but I'm really starting to get bummed out by the very obvious, "lets make a whole new character and slap Wonder Woman's name on her to keep the old guard around" strategy.

[KnightErrantJR]

This is why the Amazons are nameless and faceless except for the Queen who bravely killed herself. This is the reason the Gods left. This is the reason for the costume change. She spent 70 years not working so now they are going to make her work. Bringing back lame villains isn't going to increase sales. Only by introducing new exciting villains can you truly get the Ferrari out of the garage.


If this were true, why is the character one of the three most recognizable people at DC Comics? She's had several runs that were pretty popular, utilizing both old elements and new ones in the past. On top of that, just because a solo book can't get up a head of steam doesn't mean that people, wholesale, don't want the character around in her present form.

Plus I'm not all that excited about a naked dude carrying Diana's lasso while leading some shadowy organization whose sole purpose seems to be to exist as Diana's enemies.

[Tiberious]

Yeah, that's what I want. Considering Diana was conceived as a role model to young girls . . .

"Remember girls, if you can't get want you want any other way, you can always use sex to win a fight! Just make sure to kill the guy afterwards, or else people might not respect you."
:frown:

Well that speech has to follow "If someone does something wrong you have to kill them. Kill them all." or its not going to make sense.

This character isn't a role model to anyone and she isn't trying to be. She is trying to be entertaining to the demographic that purchases comic books. She is trying to get sales along the lines of Superman/Batman/Green Lantern. I'm sure that having a character use sex to get the information she wants will always outsell one that cries over boys and hugs a lot.

[Tiberious]

If this were true, why is the character one of the three most recognizable people at DC Comics? She's had several runs that were pretty popular, utilizing both old elements and new ones in the past. On top of that, just because a solo book can't get up a head of steam doesn't mean that people, wholesale, don't want the character around in her present form.

Plus I'm not all that excited about a naked dude carrying Diana's lasso while leading some shadowy organization whose sole purpose seems to be to exist as Diana's enemies.

DC has tried bringing in big names, fresh names, big artists, talented artists, cross overs and everything else they could think of to keep from discontinuing this character and none of it worked. If you've tried everything and you still aren't getting sales then the problem is obviously the character. The failed one still exists in back issues and in the new DCU game. The new character even had a flashback of the broken one and is trying to "repair the timeline" so there is a chance that one may someday after Straczynski leaves return.

[KnightErrantJR]

Words fail me . . .

[Eliseu Gouveia]

In all fairness, making Diana the standard bearer(spokesperson/icon for 1001 causes is what killed people´s interest in the character.

Writers are forced to write her so infinitely perfect that any attempt to write her a s a PERSON instead of an immaculate beacon of pure white light is met with, well, what we´ve been watching in these very boards these last couple months.

[Tiberious]

Exactly. If anything she should be the spirit of vengeance. Stop making her stand for anything.

[Gaelforce]

Exactly. If anything she should be the spirit of vengeance. Stop making her stand for anything.

WTF?

Assuming all your posts of late are sarcastic, it's getting to be a bit much.

[Tiberious]

WTF?

Assuming all your posts of late are sarcastic, it's getting to be a bit much.

Her sisters were murdered, her mother sacrificed herself to save her, her home was destroyed. How is she not our for vengeance? Even if she repairs the timeline and brings everything back that is an act of vengeance.

When she was the Avatar of truth she was severely limited in what she could do. Even donning a disguise which is a classic superhero move was off limits since she could no longer lie. By having her new "mission" to be the rescue and restoration of the Amazons that is a wide open playing field for any type of story where as "bringing peace to man's world through force and honesty" seemed to be too confining.

With this new status quo we will get tons of stories not possible with the old character.

Also Superman doesn't stand for anything. He's just a guy doing what's right. Batman doesn't stand for anything. He's just a guy trying to keep others from experiencing what destroyed his life. Let the new Wonder Woman just be a woman trying to right the wrongs of her people.

[TimothyLaskey]

Superman doesn't stand for anything? Batman doesn't stand fir anything?

You just said what they DO stand for.

Superman does the right thing. Even when it's not the easiest thing. He's morally just, with enough power to enforce it.

Batman prevents crime by being the best detective in the world. He stands for fear- striking fear in the hearts of criminals to scare them straight.

Wonder Woman stands for love- she turns enemies into allies, gets men to respect women (and vice versa), and stands for freedom from repression.

People have enjoyed these characters for 75 years because of what they stand for. People who have never bought a comic book walk around in Superman tshirts, buy their daughter wonder woman coloring books and batman lunchboxes... I don't see how their inspirational value could slip by anybody

[aegisbearer]

Her sisters were murdered, her mother sacrificed herself to save her, her home was destroyed. How is she not our for vengeance? Even if she repairs the timeline and brings everything back that is an act of vengeance.

When she was the Avatar of truth she was severely limited in what she could do. Even donning a disguise which is a classic superhero move was off limits since she could no longer lie. By having her new "mission" to be the rescue and restoration of the Amazons that is a wide open playing field for any type of story where as "bringing peace to man's world through force and honesty" seemed to be too confining.

With this new status quo we will get tons of stories not possible with the old character.

Also Superman doesn't stand for anything. He's just a guy doing what's right. Batman doesn't stand for anything. He's just a guy trying to keep others from experiencing what destroyed his life. Let the new Wonder Woman just be a woman trying to right the wrongs of her people.

I would like to think that when the timeline is restored that Diana will have grown from her experience in a way we have not seen. I don't believe everything she does from that point on will be for vengeance's sake. He's starting her off in a place we're least comfortable on purpose so we can watch her find herself in a different way.

[zryson]

so jms started a fans of himself club? omg if thats the case. so many people do that these days. can you say i love myself. can ya can ya? :frown:

[Tiberious]

I would like to think that when the timeline is restored that Diana will have grown from her experience in a way we have not seen. I don't believe everything she does from that point on will be for vengeance's sake. He's starting her off in a place we're least comfortable on purpose so we can watch her find herself in a different way.

I agree but we disagree on the end result. You think we will end up where we started. I think we will grow from where we are into something similar to the past but vastly different.

[Tiberious]

so jms started a fans of himself club? omg if thats the case. so many people do that these days. can you say i love myself. can ya can ya? :frown:

Zyr what are you talking about? He has had his facebook and message board for awhile.

[aegisbearer]

I agree but we disagree on the end result. You think we will end up where we started. I think we will grow from where we are into something similar to the past but vastly different.

I'm not saying she'll end up back where she started; that would make JMS's storyline useless. :)

I'm saying that when the timeline is restored to "normal" (not Diana), whatever experiences Diana has had in this altered place/time will help shape her into something we haven't seen, but I do think we'll see remnants of the original.

[zryson]

Zyr what are you talking about? He has had his facebook and message board for awhile.

i was just wondering if he started the fans of jms facebook thing himself? if thats the case i just find it a little funny. a bit self-serving. but alot of people do it these days from writers, artists, actors to people blogging.

[americanwonder]

Well, that completely invalidates my argument, then. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/550245/gallery/net/smilies/dry.gif

If your arguement was that Jason Bourne falls in love with Julia Stiles while fighting for his life, then yes, you fail. :tongue:


In all fairness, making Diana the standard bearer(spokesperson/icon for 1001 causes is what killed people´s interest in the character.

Writers are forced to write her so infinitely perfect that any attempt to write her a s a PERSON instead of an immaculate beacon of pure white light is met with, well, what we´ve been watching in these very boards these last couple months.

Exaggerate much? And it's not like she's the only one who stands for something: What about the big blue boy-scout? Did "with great power..." hinder Spider-Man? Sales on X-Men tanked because of the whole preachy repressed minorities thing, right?

And let's be honest here, many of those attempts to write Diana as a "person" just weren't all they were meant to be (to put it mildly).

[AaronJ]

I'm not saying she'll end up back where she started; that would make JMS's storyline useless. :)

I'm saying that when the timeline is restored to "normal" (not Diana), whatever experiences Diana has had in this altered place/time will help shape her into something we haven't seen, but I do think we'll see remnants of the original.

I'd have to agree with this. And it's mostly what JMS himself has said in interviews, anyways.

[Tiberious]

i was just wondering if he started the fans of jms facebook thing himself? if thats the case i just find it a little funny. a bit self-serving. but alot of people do it these days from writers, artists, actors to people blogging.

Gail Simone Staczynski, and Ethan Van Sciver both have "Fans of" pages. Phil Jiminez and Don Kramer all have Facebook pages. You can only have 5000 or so friends on Facebook so once you hit that level you have to get a friends of page anyway.

[JacquieisaWW]

I'm not saying she'll end up back where she started; that would make JMS's storyline useless. :)

I'm saying that when the timeline is restored to "normal" (not Diana), whatever experiences Diana has had in this altered place/time will help shape her into something we haven't seen, but I do think we'll see remnants of the original.

You guys are forgetting this isn't Wonder Woman at all. This is Diana: Princess of a lost and slaughtered civilization! She is not on a mission of love and peace. She is on a mission to revenge her sisters and slaughter those who have harmed them. She can't do that with candy and lollipops! Heads are going to have to roll. JMS' charachter is not Wonder Woman in the slightest she is a bad a$$ street urchin who is going to do whatever needs to be done. If you think Batman is pissed about his parents being murdered how do you think this new Diana feels now that her whole civilization is in ruins??
What do you think the natural outcome of this will be? Her sitting at a big round table saying "ok come guys say your sorry! you know you hadn't ought to have done all that! Now let's ll hug!!" No! she is going to pop some heads!!!!
After all isn't that what we all really want from her?

[AaronJ]

You guys are forgetting this isn't Wonder Woman at all. This is Diana: Princess of a lost and slaughtered civilization! She is not on a mission of love and peace. She is on a mission to revenge her sisters and slaughter those who have harmed them. She can't do that with candy and lollipops! Heads are going to have to roll. JMS' charachter is not Wonder Woman in the slightest she is a bad a$$ street urchin who is going to do whatever needs to be done. If you think Batman is pissed about his parents being murdered how do you think this new Diana feels now that her whole civilization is in ruins??
What do you think the natural outcome of this will be? Her sitting at a big round table saying "ok come guys say your sorry! you know you hadn't ought to have done all that! Now let's ll hug!!" No! she is going to pop some heads!!!!
After all isn't that what we all really want from her?

The natural outcome? It seems fairly obvious, but if you feel the need to ask, I'll respond.

The natural outcome is that over time, Diana learns more and more about how this timeline is skewed, and how different the world is supposed to be. Eventually, through who knows what means, she is able to reconstruct the original timeline, and come to grips with not only who she is, but her place in the correct world.

This is a fairly standard sci-fi/fantasy storyline.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

If your arguement was that Jason Bourne falls in love with Julia Stiles while fighting for his life, then yes, you fail. :tongue:

I am devastated.



Exaggerate much? And it's not like she's the only one who stands for something: What about the big blue boy-scout? Did "with great power..." hinder Spider-Man? Sales on X-Men tanked because of the whole preachy repressed minorities thing, right?

And let's be honest here, many of those attempts to write Diana as a "person" just weren't all they were meant to be (to put it mildly).


The problem is not that she stand for something.
The problem is that in the process of turning her into the flag of so many causes and aspirations, she has become this pure immaculate virgin saint that can do no wrong or the fans wiill explode into a diatribe.

If Daredevil gets up in the morning and slips on a banana peel, people will think nothing of it.

If WW did the same, there would be flames and pitchforks surrounding DC offices.

[vaffrey]

Exactly. If anything she should be the spirit of vengeance. Stop making her stand for anything.

Seems you're a fan not of Wonder Woman but, instead, the Wondernator.

[Tiberious]

The natural outcome? It seems fairly obvious, but if you feel the need to ask, I'll respond.

The natural outcome is that over time, Diana learns more and more about how this timeline is skewed, and how different the world is supposed to be. Eventually, through who knows what means, she is able to reconstruct the original timeline, and come to grips with not only who she is, but her place in the correct world.

This is a fairly standard sci-fi/fantasy storyline.

Doesn't anyone remember Psylocke from the X-Men? Betsy Braddock (a mild mannered telepath) entered the Seige Perilous Crystal and emerged as Psylocke-a deadly trained Ninja. She eventually knew who she was but she was infinetely more powerful, sexy and interesting. That is what is happening here. Diana will discover the other timeline but will be a better character.

[AaronJ]

Doesn't anyone remember Psylocke from the X-Men? Betsy Braddock (a mild mannered telepath) entered the Seige Perilous Crystal and emerged as Psylocke-a deadly trained Ninja. She eventually knew who she was but she was infinetely more powerful, sexy and interesting. That is what is happening here. Diana will discover the other timeline but will be a better character.

Well, I don't remember Psylocke since I've never read a story with her in it. :)

I think here with Diana it's not so much about having her be a "better character" as it is about investigation of the character.

[Tiberious]

Well, I don't remember Psylocke since I've never read a story with her in it. :)

I think here with Diana it's not so much about having her be a "better character" as it is about investigation of the character.

Psylocke is an amazing X-Woman. She is defiinitely one of the best on the team.

Imagine if Morrison wanted to write RIP and fans were outraged screaming "That isn't the Batman Kane wrote!" That is what Straczynski is fixing. This *isn't* Perez's Wonder Woman so she *can* tell a joke or flirt of kill a mercenary and it *is* in character.

[AaronJ]

Psylocke is an amazing X-Woman. She is defiinitely one of the best on the team.

She's got one of the best outfits, that's for sure! ;)

Honestly, my X-Men reading is EXTREMELY limited. Basically, Morrison and Whedon. That's pretty much it, with a tiny bit of Claremont tossed in.

Oh, and House of M.


Imagine if Morrison wanted to write RIP and fans were outraged screaming "That isn't the Batman Kane wrote!" That is what Straczynski is fixing. This *isn't* Perez's Wonder Woman so she *can* tell a joke or flirt of kill a mercenary and it *is* in character.

You don't need to convince me. But I think that at the end, the Diana we'll be faced with will not be too different than the Diana we have had over the years. But there will be definite differences.

Otherwise, why bother in the first place?

[carabas]

Doesn't anyone remember Psylocke from the X-Men? Betsy Braddock (a mild mannered telepath) entered the Seige Perilous Crystal and emerged as Psylocke-a deadly trained Ninja.That's a really really bad example. Betsy never went back to anything remotely resembling her original self, who was infinitely more interesting than the ninja the purple Elektra costume.

[Tiberious]

She's got one of the best outfits, that's for sure! ;)

Honestly, my X-Men reading is EXTREMELY limited. Basically, Morrison and Whedon. That's pretty much it, with a tiny bit of Claremont tossed in.

Oh, and House of M.



You don't need to convince me. But I think that at the end, the Diana we'll be faced with will not be too different than the Diana we have had over the years. But there will be definite differences.

Otherwise, why bother in the first place?

Quoted for truth!!!

[Tiberious]

That's a really really bad example. Betsy never went back to anything remotely resembling her original self, who was infinitely more interesting than the ninja the purple Elektra costume.

My friend you and I will have to agree to disagree.

I think she went away from the mousy fragile Elizabeth into the sultry, powerful Betsy in a great way. A telepath without armor who could fight hand-to-hand and then end you with a blade of psionic focused energy? Yes give me that over the girl in the cape who made purple butterflies any day.

[bfrank]

"mousy frail" Betsy had a much better showing vs Creed then uber bad ninja bitch....and I should add that uber bad ninja bitch betsy is my second favorite x-lady, but she has never been "mousy" or "frail".......in any incarnation......

[Tiberious]

"mousy frail" Betsy had a much better showing vs Creed then uber bad ninja bitch....and I should add that uber bad ninja bitch betsy is my second favorite x-lady, but she has never been "mousy" or "frail".......in any incarnation......

Well that's right after AoA when Creed was getting his big push so she had to lose. She should have owned him easily.

Who's your favorite?

[americanwonder]

The problem is not that she stand for something.
The problem is that in the process of turning her into the flag of so many causes and aspirations, she has become this pure immaculate virgin saint that can do no wrong or the fans wiill explode into a diatribe.

"The fans made me do it"? Interesting theory. Got any actual examples where DC altered WW stories because of said fan diatribes?

And what are all these causes you claim she's carrying a flag for?

Note: I do think there's some merit to your point here - I just think you exaggerate it way too much and seem to ignore/downplay all the other factors at play here.

[Suffering Sappho!]

Wait a minute, isn't JMS the one who made a big stink of that podcaster comparing Wonder Woman to his grandmother, and how he wanted to make her more sexual? How is he going to do that without a romantic interest? Just asking she be drawn with bigger boobs and make sure her butt is nicely framed a lot? Sounds like he wants her to a sexual object, not a sexual person.

[AaronJ]

Wait a minute, isn't JMS the one who made a big stink of that podcaster comparing Wonder Woman to his grandmother, and how he wanted to make her more sexual? How is he going to do that without a romantic interest? Just asking she be drawn with bigger boobs and make sure her butt is nicely framed a lot? Sounds like he wants her to a sexual object, not a sexual person.

That is not what he said AT ALL! I mean, if you are going to jump on what someone said, at least get it straight first.

Sheesh.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

"The fans made me do it"? Interesting theory. Got any actual examples where DC altered WW stories because of said fan diatribes?

Any examples I throw will be chopped off under the "show us the evidence", so why bother?



And what are all these causes you claim she's carrying a flag for?

Ogod, where to start...




Note: I do think there's some merit to your point here - I just think you exaggerate it way too much and seem to ignore/downplay all the other factors at play here.


"Exagerating?"
People are boycotting the book beause she put on a pair of pants!!

[AaronJ]

Any examples I throw will be chopped off under the "show us the evidence", so why bother?

Well, even though I agree with you, generally if one is going to put forth a hypothesis, evidence *is* expected.

[the4thpip]

Wait a minute, isn't JMS the one who made a big stink of that podcaster comparing Wonder Woman to his grandmother, and how he wanted to make her more sexual? How is he going to do that without a romantic interest? Just asking she be drawn with bigger boobs and make sure her butt is nicely framed a lot? Sounds like he wants her to a sexual object, not a sexual person.

Hmmm... I think JMS owes you a therapist's fee.

[raporfest]

"Exagerating?"
People are boycotting the book beause she put on a pair of pants!!

Oh it's more then that.

[Tiberious]

Its a big change and change is hard. Once she picks up some of her old traits people will be back, probably in a year or so.

[AaronJ]

Its a big change and change is hard. Once she picks up some of her old traits people will be back, probably in a year or so.

I'm not entirely convinced anyone's left. Well, let me put that another way: I'm not convinced that any more folks have jumped ship than jump ship with any major creative team change.

I wasn't reading it when Picoult wrote it, for instance. It wasn't a "boycott." I just dropped it, as I would do with any book with which I'm not pleased. A "boycott" implies some sort of organized, political movement. People dropping a book because they don't like it isn't a "boycott."

[Tiberious]

I'm not entirely convinced anyone's left. Well, let me put that another way: I'm not convinced that any more folks have jumped ship than jump ship with any major creative team change.

I wasn't reading it when Picoult wrote it, for instance. It wasn't a "boycott." I just dropped it, as I would do with any book with which I'm not pleased. A "boycott" implies some sort of organized, political movement. People dropping a book because they don't like it isn't a "boycott."

If anything we gained net numbers. I'm sure fewer people left than Straczynski brought on board. As momentum builds more and more people will pick the title up.

[AaronJ]

If anything we gained net numbers. I'm sure fewer people left than Straczynski brought on board. As momentum builds more and more people will pick the title up.

There's no question about that.

But WW will just never be a Top-10/Top-20 book on any consistent basis. I'm convinced of that. And, honestly, I don't care.

[Tiberious]

There's no question about that.

But WW will just never be a Top-10/Top-20 book on any consistent basis. I'm convinced of that. And, honestly, I don't care.

Ummm I disagree. I think she could be. She just needs the right elements and direction. Depending on how the next few issues go she could shoot up there quite a bit.

[AaronJ]

Ummm I disagree. I think she could be. She just needs the right elements and direction. Depending on how the next few issues go she could shoot up there quite a bit.

These were the Top 10 books from June:

1. New Avengers #1
2. Batman #700
3. Avengers #2
4. Batman The Return of Bruce Wayne #3
5. Green Lantern #55
6. Brightest Day #3
7. Brightest Day #4
8. Secret Avengers #2
9. Uncanny X-Men #525
10. Avengers Prime #1

Here are the next 10:

11. Flash #3
12. Superman #700
13. Green Lantern Corps #49
14. X-Men Legacy #237
15. Justice League of America #46
16. Amazing Spider-Man #634
17. Amazing Spider-Man #633
18. Captain America #606
19. Astonishing X-Men #34
20. Thor #611

Thor #611 had 56,443 orders. So, I suppose it is *possible* if not likely for WW to capture a spot at the bottom of the Top-20.

But not only do you have these books, but you have stuff like Batman Inc. coming up to take Top-5/Top-10 spots as well.

[brettc1]

2) right now she's fighting for her life and the lives of the other Amazons, so at this juncture there isn't time for a love interest;

No, there never is.

Seems there's at least one piece of WW continuity being adhered to. :frown:



As for her voice and personality...remember that we're literally just one issue into the story, much of which went into establishing the background to her situation. You'll get a lot more of her voice in 602, and she's in a way building her own voice and personality as she goes on this voyage of discovery.[/I][/B]

Building. Not rediscovering.

Cause before, she never had one, apparently.

Sigh.

[Tiberious]

No, there never is.

Seems there's at least one piece of WW continuity being adhered to. :frown:




Building. Not rediscovering.

Cause before, she never had one, apparently.

Sigh.

Exactly. We are working forwards not backwards. Even if she gets all her memories back that's not going to erase these last twenty years.

602 can't get here soon enough!

[americanwonder]

Any examples I throw will be chopped off under the "show us the evidence", so why bother?

Oh, those rabid and crazy fans asking for such outlandish things as "evidence." Don't let such foolish notions get in the way of your theories.


"Exagerating?"
People are boycotting the book beause she put on a pair of pants!!

And speaking of exagerating, ...


As momentum builds more and more people will pick the title up.

Honest question here: you really think sales numbers will go up from here?

From what I've seen, that's generally not the case, and not just for WW. Typically, the slide is downwards, as peole try it out and those who don't care much for it begin to drop it, unless something "special" comes along to give it a "bump." So, unless there's increasing word-of-mouth praise for all-nu-Wonder-pants or some sort of big hook, I don't see sales numbers going more up than they already have.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Oh, those rabid and crazy fans asking for such outlandish things as "evidence." Don't let such foolish notions get in the way of your theories.


Do YOU have a direct line to WW editorial and the ability to photograph or film what goes on inside there?

I´m gonna guess... NO!

[AaronJ]

Do YOU have a direct line to WW editorial and the ability to photograph or film what goes on inside there?

I´m gonna guess... NO!

Which is why I try and not speak for these things I have no knowledge of.

[Tiberious]

Honest question here: you really think sales numbers will go up from here?

From what I've seen, that's generally not the case, and not just for WW. Typically, the slide is downwards, as peole try it out and those who don't care much for it begin to drop it, unless something "special" comes along to give it a "bump." So, unless there's increasing word-of-mouth praise for all-nu-Wonder-pants or some sort of big hook, I don't see sales numbers going more up than they already have.


It all depends on what Straczynski does from here. He's already shown that he's willing to take the world and turn it upside down. If he writes a truly new Diana then I think sales will increase because word of mouth will be "whoa did you see what Wonder Woman did...check that out...". If he turns her back into what she was before then sales will slightly drop and level off where they were before. He said he was taking the Ferrari out of the garage which he did. Now is he going to drive it 120 miles per hour or throw on some new wax and push it back into the garage? Time and issues will tell.

[bfrank]

Do YOU have a direct line to WW editorial and the ability to photograph or film what goes on inside there?

I´m gonna guess... NO!

So come in and make claims that you can't back up and people are supposed to believe you why exactly?

bull and sh!t......

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Which is why I try and not speak for these things I have no knowledge of.


So come in and make claims that you can't back up and people are supposed to believe you why exactly?

bull and sh!t......


The question is... DID I make any claims or spoke of things I didn´t know of?

Let´s go back to it, shall well?
Here is my initial statement:






The problem is not that she stand for something.
The problem is that in the process of turning her into the flag of so many causes and aspirations, she has become this pure immaculate virgin saint that can do no wrong or the fans wiill explode into a diatribe.

If Daredevil gets up in the morning and slips on a banana peel, people will think nothing of it.

If WW did the same, there would be flames and pitchforks surrounding DC offices.

And this is AmericanWonder´s repply:



"The fans made me do it"? Interesting theory. Got any actual examples where DC altered WW stories because of said fan diatribes?


At no stage did I say DC ever altered WW stories due to fan rage.
I can suspect that they did so, but since I have no hard evidence, I decided not to go there.

What I HAVE said is that it is very hard to find a WW story that doesn´t lead to fan rage of some sort because for most fans, she has become this immaculate pure beacon of shining hope beyond the flaws of human existence..

[DBrewer75]

That's a really really bad example. Betsy never went back to anything remotely resembling her original self, who was infinitely more interesting than the ninja the purple Elektra costume.

AMEN

I'd say Australian Outback Betsy would easily take Ninja Bathing Suit Beauty Betsy any day of the week

[americanwonder]

At no stage did I say DC ever altered WW stories due to fan rage.
I can suspect that they did so, but since I have no hard evidence, I decided not to go there.

What I HAVE said is that it is very hard to find a WW story that doesn´t lead to fan rage of some sort because for most fans, she has become this immaculate pure beacon of shining hope beyond the flaws of human existence..

I'm confused: If you weren't trying to imply that DC alters stories due to fan rage, and if, as you say, its so "very hard to find a WW story that doesn´t lead to fan rage," then how is fan rage such a big problem for DC when it comes to WW?

For starters, if nearly every story leads to said rage (as if this is unique to WW fans), then no matter what they do, there will be rage, no? So, they can basically do anything, because good or bad, you get the same result right?

[bulldog_milt]

Guys... stop with the bickering... if you want to argue take it off the boards... we have this amazing feature called Private Messaging... you should check it out sometime...

And back to the topic at hand :)

[nightforce]

So that means NO Love Interest and NO Personal Life. Does that mean No friends either? Just as have been fearing.

Wow this doesn't sound fun at all.

All he did was NAKE her completely solo for the time being. Or however long he has her fighting for her life and the Amazons. But wouldn't that mean that she will be THRUST in her mythos yet again?


Well I will give it another 3 issues. See how it goes.

[Tiberious]

So that means NO Love Interest and NO Personal Life. Does that mean No friends either? Just as have been fearing.

Wow this doesn't sound fun at all.

All he did was NAKE her completely solo for the time being. Or however long he has her fighting for her life and the Amazons. But wouldn't that mean that she will be THRUST in her mythos yet again?


Well I will give it another 3 issues. See how it goes.

No love interest and no personal life YET. We are ONE full issue in.

ONE.

He's giving us new cool villains and a great new character. That stuff will come but not in issue 602. I'm sure by three more issues you are going to be loving it!

[Ari Gold]

I'm most bothered by the "all new villains" thing. If the intention is to give Wonder Woman a cool, lasting rogues gallery, then you've already failed if you're going to have her face nothing but new enemies. History has shown us that they won't stick around past this writer's run. Time would be better spent trying to build up characters like Cheetah and Dr. Cyber.

Morrison's Batman run has been a complete failure for this very reason!


i was just wondering if he started the fans of jms facebook thing himself? if thats the case i just find it a little funny. a bit self-serving. but alot of people do it these days from writers, artists, actors to people blogging.

Yeah, I hate it when writers & artists reach out to their fans.
They should sit back & wait for the fans to create forums before they become any kind of accessible.


These were the Top 10 books from June:

1. New Avengers #1
2. Batman #700
3. Avengers #2
4. Batman The Return of Bruce Wayne #3
5. Green Lantern #55
6. Brightest Day #3
7. Brightest Day #4
8. Secret Avengers #2
9. Uncanny X-Men #525
10. Avengers Prime #1

Here are the next 10:

11. Flash #3
12. Superman #700
13. Green Lantern Corps #49
14. X-Men Legacy #237
15. Justice League of America #46
16. Amazing Spider-Man #634
17. Amazing Spider-Man #633
18. Captain America #606
19. Astonishing X-Men #34
20. Thor #611

Thor #611 had 56,443 orders. So, I suppose it is *possible* if not likely for WW to capture a spot at the bottom of the Top-20.

But not only do you have these books, but you have stuff like Batman Inc. coming up to take Top-5/Top-10 spots as well.

JMS' Thor was selling 100K a pop and consistently in the Top 5.
I may be wrong, but I don't recall Thor selling that well in previous incarnations.
I think JMS' Superman & WW can both crack the Top 10 if he keeps up this quality and they don't succomb to too many delays.

[Gaelforce]

Considering that JMS's first issue undersold Gail's first issue by 14K copies, I'm not holding out much hope for it to leap up in the standings :(

[Ari Gold]

Considering that JMS's first issue undersold Gail's first issue by 14K copies, I'm not holding out much hope for it to leap up in the standings :(

Haha, you serious?

As far as I can tell Simone took over with issue #14.
#13: 48,334
#14: 53,071 (Gail's 1st issue)
#15: 44,602

JMS' took over with issue #601. I'm going to exclude #600 for obvious reasons.

#44: 25,443 (Simone's last issue)
#601: Not even sure where to find this info. But I imagine it was a considerably larger increase than Gail's 1st issue.

[Gaelforce]

601 sold 39,672. 13,399 less than Gail's first issue and that was with a huuuuuuuge amount of hype. I believe the issue 600 total with 2nd printing came in at around 65K or so.

[Ari Gold]

601 sold 39,672.

So then you agree that 24K to 40K is a bigger jump than 48 to 53.

Especially when you consider that WW proceeded to fall from Simone's first issue through her final issue.

Or the fact that although Simone's 1st issue may have sold more than copies than JMS' first, WW hasn't sold as many as #601 in over 2 years...

[Gaelforce]

I think you're confusing a lot on the simple math.

JMS's very first, much hyped issue of WW which following international attention regarding the 'new' Wonder Woman with costume change sold significantly fewer copies than Gail Simone's first issue of the book.

You can't judge how many issues it 'jumped' or 'dropped' from for a number of reasons:

- In general, issue #1's give any title a huge bump that takes time to shed readers.

- In general, any hyped writer/artist on a book, especially a 'gimmick' one, will give a title a bump that takes time to shed readers.

- In general, any major cross over will give a title a bump that takes time to shed readers.

- Gail Simone took over the book after back to back 'hyped gimmick' writers (Heinberg and Piccoult) and on the heels of a major crossover event (AA), and only 14 issues into a new run. The issues prior to #14 were inflated, just as issue 600 (anniversary issue) was artificially inflated. Yet you wish to ignore 600 and the fact that JMS technically *lost* nearly half the readership while trying to hold up Gail's smaller increase as somehow less important.

Fact is, JMS's first hyped up issue lost 25K readers and sold 13K less than Gail's first issue. You can't spin it by increase/decrease as there's a gigantic difference in the situations that both writers were handed - Gail coming off gimmick writers, a major crossover and horrible publicity leftover by that crossover versus JMS coming off an incredibly hyped anniversary issue plus the publicity of SDCC.

However, the test of time is what matters. Let's see where JMS's numbers are in two years. Gail's numbers had leveled off and were actually slowly starting to creep back up over her last few issues. I hope JMS's will rise as well, but with that much of a drop from 600 and that fewer issues than Gail's first one, especially considering how WW was all over the papers as well as the internet, I just don't expect much out of sales.

[AaronJ]

601 sold 39,672. 13,399 less than Gail's first issue and that was with a huuuuuuuge amount of hype. I believe the issue 600 total with 2nd printing came in at around 65K or so.

#601 was ordered by retailers in April.

There was a "huuuuuuuuge amount of hype" for JMS' Wonder Woman run back in April? Really? Because I sure don't remember it.

[BnL]

Morrison's Batman run has been a complete failure for this very reason!

I haven't read Morrison's Batman, but I assume you're being sarcastic here? If that's the case, I can't help but wonder if you are familiar with Wonder Woman's history...in fact, I wonder if you really even read my post very closely. Because when I mentioned failure, it was specifically regarding the intention to create a lasting rogues gallery composed of all new villains (if that is indeed the intention), not on the overall artistic merit of JMS's run. And I'm basing my opinion on patterns in Wonder Woman's publication history. So it's apples and oranges to compare her to Batman in this scenario.

Batman's rogues gallery is well established, and highly respected. Batman has also had multiple titles for as long as he's been published, which has given his villains plenty of space to grow and develop. They've also had lots of exposure in a variety of movies and TV series. So if a writer wants to be a bit experimental, or work with all new villains, that's cool. If a reader doesn't like it, there are always other Batman titles to read, and his classic rogues gallery is still popular and aren't going anywhere.

Wonder Woman's rogues gallery is very neglected, and many readers look down on them. She's had one title for most of her publication history, and at certain points, she was only published bimonthly or even quarterly. Most of the time, when a new writer comes on the title, they create new villains rather than try to build up existing villains. Invariably, these new villains are either never seen again once their creator leaves the title, or they show up just long enough to get quickly killed off by the following writer.

[Gaelforce]

Well, considering there's no call for a 2nd printing, it doesn't seem that 601 has sold out (if it has and there's to be a 2nd print run, then this is a moot discussion :) ) That means retailers still have issues on the shelves. It doesn't matter what they ordered - it matters what they sold, and the hype should be a boost to sales.

They knew when they ordered it that JMS was taking over at least and that it was following on the heels of an anniversary issue, yet they still ordered significantly less than they did for Simone's first issue or for Picoult's first issue (62K)

Hype aside, he's a big name coming off of a hot run (Thor) and the retailers knew that much at least. Comic buyers knew a heckuva lot more by the time it hit the shelves, yet that didn't seem to translate to a sales increase (again, unless I'm mistaken and 601 has sold out)

[nightforce]

#601 was ordered by retailers in April.

There was a "huuuuuuuuge amount of hype" for JMS' Wonder Woman run back in April? Really? Because I sure don't remember it.


So now we are saying that since the retailers ordered MONTHS in advance that that is what THAT neans? So how is it 600 sold SIGNIFICANTLY higher than 601? Why doesn't that make sense to me?

[AaronJ]

So now we are saying that since the retailers ordered MONTHS in advance that that is what THAT neans? So how is it 600 sold SIGNIFICANTLY higher than 601? Why doesn't that make sense to me?

Huh? #600 was an anniversary issue. I don't understand what you're asking.

[AaronJ]

Well, considering there's no call for a 2nd printing, it doesn't seem that 601 has sold out (if it has and there's to be a 2nd print run, then this is a moot discussion :) ) That means retailers still have issues on the shelves. It doesn't matter what they ordered - it matters what they sold, and the hype should be a boost to sales.

Except that the only numbers we ever have information on are the orders through Diamond. No one EVER knows how many issues something "sell." Only how many issues were ordered through Diamond.

[Gaelforce]

Except that the only numbers we ever have information on are the orders through Diamond. No one EVER knows how many issues something "sell." Only how many issues were ordered through Diamond.

Correct. That's the only information we have for any run for any writer or artist on any title.

So the numbers are consistent in their accuracy/inaccuracy from one writer to the next. Gail's 1st issue was ranked 35 on the sales charts and sold 13K more than JMS's 1st issue which will end up ranking (approximately) in the low to mid 40s (rankings haven't been released yet - it's a ballpark estimate based on where similar selling titles were in the rankings in June)

Point is, Gail's start was better than JMS's start, both in numbers and in sales ranking. Period.

[nightforce]

Huh? #600 was an anniversary issue. I don't understand what you're asking.

Huh? Maybe but most likely Get it? :wink:

[AaronJ]

Correct. That's the only information we have for any run for any writer or artist on any title.

So the numbers are consistent in their accuracy/inaccuracy from one writer to the next. Gail's 1st issue was ranked 35 on the sales charts and sold 13K more than JMS's 1st issue which will end up ranking (approximately) in the low to mid 40s (rankings haven't been released yet - it's a ballpark estimate based on where similar selling titles were in the rankings in June)

Point is, Gail's start was better than JMS's start, both in numbers and in sales ranking. Period.

Yay?

I'm still not seeing where this "huuuuuuuuuuuge amount of hype" was, back in April. But hey, I'm glad you're happy.


Huh? Maybe but most likely Get it? :wink:

I have no clue what you're talking about.

[Gaelforce]

Yay?

I'm still not seeing where this "huuuuuuuuuuuge amount of hype" was, back in April. But hey, I'm glad you're happy.

No wonder. I never said there was any hype back in April, so you can put that straw man back whenever you're ready.

I said there was a huge amount of hype for 600 and the new WW. This should have a direct impact on sales of 601. It did not as there is no indication that 601 sold out after retailers ordered 39K copies.

If you can't follow this logic, then that's not my fault. You complicate it by making up things I never said, though.

With all the hype in June/July preceding 600 hitting the stands, it had a direct effect on sales - it sold out and there was a second printing. That hype should have carried over into 601 that (apparently) didn't sell out and there is no 2nd printing (that I've heard of).

So it's no wonder you're not 'seeing it' because I never wrote it :)

[AaronJ]

No wonder. I never said there was any hype back in April, so you can put that straw man back whenever you're ready.

I said there was a huge amount of hype for 600 and the new WW. This should have a direct impact on sales of 601. It did not as there is no indication that 601 sold out after retailers ordered 39K copies.

If you can't follow this logic, then that's not my fault. You complicate it by making up things I never said, though.

With all the hype in June/July preceding 600 hitting the stands, it had a direct effect on sales - it sold out and there was a second printing. That hype should have carried over into 601 that (apparently) didn't sell out and there is no 2nd printing (that I've heard of).

So it's no wonder you're not 'seeing it' because I never wrote it :)

But you're trying to have it both ways. Anyhow, there's obviously no point in discussing this with you, because your argument is classic "begging the question."

Like I said, I'm glad you're happy.

[Gaelforce]

But you're trying to have it both ways. Anyhow, there's obviously no point in discussing this with you, because your argument is classic "begging the question."

Like I said, I'm glad you're happy.

No, it's classic 'here are the facts.'

By the way, please quote anywhere that I indicated I was at all pleased or happy, because that's yet another strawman you tossed out there.

If you're going to debate a point, at least stick to the points I make and stop making them up.

[nightforce]

Aaron I think you are confused in what Gael and I are saying. But that is just what makes you unique

[AaronJ]

Aaron I think you are confused in what Gael and I are saying. But that is just what makes you unique

You said:


So now we are saying that since the retailers ordered MONTHS in advance that that is what THAT neans? So how is it 600 sold SIGNIFICANTLY higher than 601? Why doesn't that make sense to me?

Now, either you are being intentionally obtuse, or you have no idea what an "anniversary issue" is.

Either way, I'd say you're the "unique" one.

[aegisbearer]

Let's avoid characterizing people. It sounds like a misunderstanding. Let's leave it at that and move on...

[Gaelforce]

You said:

So now we are saying that since the retailers ordered MONTHS in advance that that is what THAT neans? So how is it 600 sold SIGNIFICANTLY higher than 601? Why doesn't that make sense to me?

Nope. Strike three. You keep countering things I never said and then getting personal and insulting about it.

Go back and read again, please. Those are Nightforce's words, not mine.


Now, either you are being intentionally obtuse, or you have no idea what an "anniversary issue" is.

Either way, I'd say you're the "unique" one.

- I am not happy about the numbers and never said I was, yet you keep claiming I am.

- I never once mentioned any hype in April but rather specifically cited the hype just before 600 was released, yet you keep claiming I did.

- I never said what you quoted in your last post, yet you attribute someone else's post to me.

I'm done here. Between misquotes and strawmen you keep setting up to knock down, you're wasting my time.

[AaronJ]

Nope. Strike three. You keep countering things I never said and then getting personal and insulting about it.

Go back and read again, please. Those are Nightforce's words, not mine.

I was responding to Nightforce.

Thank you.

[aegisbearer]

I think it'd be better if we just move on from here, guys.

[AaronJ]

I think it'd be better if we just move on from here, guys.

I needed to clarify that. Otherwise, I've said everything I have to say.

[Gaelforce]

I needed to clarify that. Otherwise, I've said everything I have to say.

Apologies for that last misunderstanding.

[Ari Gold]

Fact is, JMS's first hyped up issue lost 25K readers and sold 13K less than Gail's first issue. You can't spin it by increase/decrease as there's a gigantic difference in the situations that both writers were handed - Gail coming off gimmick writers, a major crossover and horrible publicity leftover by that crossover versus JMS coming off an incredibly hyped anniversary issue plus the publicity of SDCC.

However, the test of time is what matters. Let's see where JMS's numbers are in two years. Gail's numbers had leveled off and were actually slowly starting to creep back up over her last few issues. I hope JMS's will rise as well, but with that much of a drop from 600 and that fewer issues than Gail's first one, especially considering how WW was all over the papers as well as the internet, I just don't expect much out of sales.

"Fact is" that Simone picked up a book selling in the 40's and when she took over it sold in the 40's for a few more months and then dropped all the way to 25K an issue.
JMS picked up a book that was selling in the 25's and it sold 40 in his first issue. Even if the book dropped 10,000 copies 6 months from now, it would still be a better selling book than the last year of Gail's run . . .

I agree with your latter point regarding the test of time, but you were the one that wanted to draw conclusions based on how well their respective first issues sold . . . it's been 1 issue . . .
6 months from now, if JMS is selling in the mid 40's-50's what will your criticism be?

EDIT: Wait . . . did you criticize JMS for losing 25K readers from issue #600 vs. #601, but completely disregard the growth from 25 to 40K between Simone's last issue & his 1st?

[nightforce]

You said:



Now, either you are being intentionally obtuse, or you have no idea what an "anniversary issue" is.

Either way, I'd say you're the "unique" one.

No, let me see if I can clear this up.

Gail's FIRST Wonder Woman issue sold BETTER than JMS' First FULL Wonder Woman issue.

600 SOLD very very well Because it WAS an anniversary issue.

I think you said that The LCS buy the issues MONTHS in advanced which I don't understand what that has to do with what Gael and I were saying. JMS first issue did NOT do as well as Gail's first Issue, that is what we were saying

Unless I got you mixed up with someone else. Then My apologies,

[Ari Gold]

No, let me see if I can clear this up.

Gail's FIRST Wonder Woman issue sold BETTER than JMS' First FULL Wonder Woman issue.

600 SOLD very very well Because it WAS an anniversary issue.

I think you said that The LCS buy the issues MONTHS in advanced which I don't understand what that has to do with what Gael and I were saying. JMS first issue did NOT do as well as Gail's first Issue, that is what we were saying

Unless I got you mixed up with someone else. Then My apologies,

Right, but the reason it didn't do "as well" is b/c Gail already had a built-in audience of 40K readers buying before she took over . . . which dropped significantly over the 2 years she wrote the book.

JMS was starting with a WW-devoted audience of 25K, the fact that he got to 40K with his very first issue, is far more impressive to me, than Simone's 1st issue numbers.

I suppose we can agree to disagree on that perspective.

[nightforce]

"Fact is" that Simone picked up a book selling in the 40's and when she took over it sold in the 40's for a few more months and then dropped all the way to 25K an issue.
JMS picked up a book that was selling in the 25's and it sold 40 in his first issue. Even if the book dropped 10,000 copies 6 months from now, it would still be a better selling book than the last year of Gail's run . . .

I agree with your latter point regarding the test of time, but you were the one that wanted to draw conclusions based on how well their respective first issues sold . . . it's been 1 issue . . .
6 months from now, if JMS is selling in the mid 40's-50's what will your criticism be?

EDIT: Wait . . . did you criticize JMS for losing 25K readers from issue #600 vs. #601, but completely disregard the growth from 25 to 40K between Simone's last issue & his 1st?

The thing is if his first issue sold at 40k I truly can't see it going up. Especially if there was a drop from last month to now. Factor in people losing Jobs and the economy faltering AND comics going up in price?

[nightforce]

Right, but the reason it didn't do "as well" is b/c Gail already had a built-in audience of 40K readers buying before she took over . . . which dropped significantly over the 2 years she wrote the book.

JMS was starting with a WW-devoted audience of 25K, the fact that he got to 40K with his very first issue, is far more impressive to me, than Simone's 1st issue numbers.

I suppose we can agree to disagree on that perspective.

But can he HOLD those numbers? That is what I am getting at


Agree to disagree then :smile:

[Ari Gold]

The thing is if his first issue sold at 40k I truly can't see it going up. Especially if there was a drop from last month to now. Factor in people losing Jobs and the economy faltering AND comics going up in price?

When you factor in people losing jobs and the economy faltering AND comics going up in price, it makes JMS' 1st issue numbers that much more impressive than Simone's.

[nightforce]

Ahh yes Moving On LoL

[Ari Gold]

But can he HOLD those numbers? That is what I am getting at

That's the point you're getting it, not sure it's where Gael was going with it though.

You guys are assuming that writers/titles/creators can't grow audiences and the 1st issue of some new run is supposed to be the best-selling one and there's nowhere to go but down from there.

I disagree. I think JMS is pulling in many new readers who had never picked up a WW comic book before.

And again, I have no problem waiting it out to see if he can HOLD those numbers, but then be fair and wait it out before jumping to conclusions only when they criticize JMS, and disregard them when they reflect in his favor.

[nightforce]

Wel as you have said. We'll have to wait and see

[Gaelforce]

"Fact is" that Simone picked up a book selling in the 40's and when she took over it sold in the 40's for a few more months and then dropped all the way to 25K an issue.
JMS picked up a book that was selling in the 25's and it sold 40 in his first issue. Even if the book dropped 10,000 copies 6 months from now, it would still be a better selling book than the last year of Gail's run . . .

I agree with your latter point regarding the test of time, but you were the one that wanted to draw conclusions based on how well their respective first issues sold . . . it's been 1 issue . . .
6 months from now, if JMS is selling in the mid 40's-50's what will your criticism be?

EDIT: Wait . . . did you criticize JMS for losing 25K readers from issue #600 vs. #601, but completely disregard the growth from 25 to 40K between Simone's last issue & his 1st?

No, I did not ignore it.

I specifically stated that, in general, every new writer will create a bump in sales over the previous writer. JMS was expected to bump up higher than Gail's numbers after 30 issues on the book.

And if you're seeing criticism in my numbers, you are mistaking my posts. I am simply pointing out that:

1. JMS's first issue undersold Gail's first issue as well as Picoult's first issue (I'm not counting Heinberg for anyone since it was an issue 1). It is also ranked lower on the sales charts comparitively speaking.

2. The numbers preceding Gail's first issue were inflated due to the AA crossover and the change to a new writer. With 130K (if I remember right) Heinberg gave the title a huge lift up to start from, so by the time Gail got it it had shed something like 80K readers and was STILL in the upper 40s.

3. Every single writer on this book sheds readers. Period. They may spike due to guest stars, crossovers, events, etc., but historically speaking, the book trends downwards after each new writers first issue. Rucka's run hit lower numbers than Gail's and hers were actually starting to creep back up a tiny bit. Still, for well over a decade it has leveled off in the 20ks and has always sat in the lower half of the top 100 if not worse under other writers.

4. You cannot discount the boost from issue 600 and the subsequent loss of readers going into 601 and then ignore the higher numbers Gail started with (and still went upwards) due to gimmick writers and crossovers. Trying to compare the before and after for either writer just doesn't work due to all the different factors involved.

Based on all of this, I don't see any reason to believe the book will hold or increase in numbers. I hope it does, but that would be going against the market trends for the title. JMS's name alone is not enough - Brave and Bold sold below WW despite his excellent writing on the title.

I would like it to be otherwise, but overall I think it's a lackluster start with 601 being lower than 14 in the rankings and in sales. I hope the numbers do hold or even go up, but I just don't see it happening, all things considered.

[Gaelforce]

When you factor in people losing jobs and the economy faltering AND comics going up in price, it makes JMS' 1st issue numbers that much more impressive than Simone's.

No, it doesn't.

That's what sales rankings are for. It gives you a comparative view of how a title is going compared to everything else.

39K will put the book at approximately 41-43 in the rankings (they haven't been released yet - I'm going by where things sold in June and how they were ranked).

53K at the time represented 35 in the rankings.

So no, it is not more impressive than Simone's, sorry.

Also, if you're talking about 'audience' just prior, 63K read JMS's intro story in 600. That was his jumping off point and his 'built in' audience, imo. Yeah, it was an anniversary issue which boosts sales, but it was also his opportunity to hook more readers in. Let's say we just *average* 44 and 600? 44K readers? Let's even say 40K? You can't dismiss those 63K readers out of hand and point to 44 as his jumping off point.

[Ari Gold]

Based on all of this, I don't see any reason to believe the book will hold or increase in numbers. I hope it does, but that would be going against the market trends for the title. JMS's name alone is not enough - Brave and Bold sold below WW despite his excellent writing on the title.

I apreciate your points, I just happen to disagree with your attitude that JMS can't raise WW.

But I think you also point out that the gimmicks & crossovers pre-Gail had huge, inflated numbers for WW. Those gimmicks sold far more issues than WW #600, so the fact that 45,000 of those readers stuck around to see Gail's 1st issue simply isn't that telling when comparing it to JMS' first issue.

Again, I think this conversation will be much more clear when we have more than only 1 issue in the conversation.


53K at the time represented 35 in the rankings.

So no, it is not more impressive than Simone's, sorry.

Yeah, I was being a bit sarcastic b/c Nightforce dragged in the economy & price of comics, which seemed to be more of an explanation for JMS' selling less copies than anything he was using it to say.

Gail's 2nd issue was ranked #53 in the sales charts. Do we really want to go month to month comparing Gail's run to JMS'?

[Ari Gold]

Also, if you're talking about 'audience' just prior, 63K read JMS's intro story in 600. That was his jumping off point and his 'built in' audience, imo. Yeah, it was an anniversary issue which boosts sales, but it was also his opportunity to hook more readers in. Let's say we just *average* 44 and 600? 44K readers? Let's even say 40K? You can't dismiss those 63K readers out of hand and point to 44 as his jumping off point.

And I see the glass as half-full.

Before #600, WW sold 25,000 copies . . . #600 sold 60. And JMS 1st issue sold 40.
He obviously couldn't retain all of the 60 that simply bought the anniversary issue b/c of the big, even # on its cover. But he did retain a large portion of it.

And I don't know why you count 63K as his built-in audience when there were only 25K people buying WW in the months prior to #600. Do you really think a 10 page story will hook everybody? Do you really think all 60K even read the story? Because I think many people who had no interest in WW picked up the issue solely b/c it as #600.

[AaronJ]

For the record:

Wonder Woman #601 logged in at #38 overall, and as the #17 DC book.

Wonder Woman #14 logged in at #35 overall, and as the #15 DC book.


WW #601: 39,672 (prev. issue: 25,443)* +55.9%
WW #14: 53,090 (prev. issue: 48,385) +9.7%




* I'm counting the "prev. issue" as #49, not as #600.

[Ari Gold]

WW #601: 39,672 (prev. issue: 25,443)* +55.9%
WW #14: 53,090 (prev. issue: 48,385) +9.7%

Yeah, and here Gael, is where I think we're divided.

You see the 55% growth for JMS and attribute that to the gimmicky #600. However, the main reason that Simone's 53,000 was so high in the first place was b/c prior issues were already selling mid-to-high 40's.

So I don't think the exact quantity of issues sold is a fair comparison when WW was selling well-ish pre-Simone but not very well pre-JMS.

[nightforce]

So let's see

Hopefully JMS will bring in the Numbers or keep at the 40k.

But Historically speaking I don't see that happening. Not saying that is a bad thing though

[americanwonder]

Hmm, coming off a sold out #600 and with an index ranking of 51.93, I figured the actual sales est. would be higher.

There're still pretty good, but I doubt they'll go up from here. Unless there is lots of wonder-buzz, if people were going to jump on board to give it a try, I think most of those folks already have. And we've seen countless times that when you remove a character, especially the mid-to-low sellers, from the main universe, then sales often go down - it's seems folks consider it unimportant or somesuch.

[carabas]

So the numbers are consistent in their accuracy/inaccuracy from one writer to the next. Gail's 1st issue was ranked 35 on the sales charts and sold 13K more than JMS's 1st issue which will end up ranking (approximately) in the low to mid 40s (rankings haven't been released yet - it's a ballpark estimate based on where similar selling titles were in the rankings in June)

Point is, Gail's start was better than JMS's start, both in numbers and in sales ranking. Period.Mind you, these numbers are not based on how much people liked it, but on how much retailers ordered of it three months in advance.

The hype for Straczynsi's Wonder Woman didn't really start up until #600 came out, which was about two months too late for it to do much about boosting sales for #601. Pretty much all the JMS hype wen't to his not-so-Superman.

On the other hand, IIRC, there was a lot of hype for Gail's run on the book months before it hit, so it stands to reasion retailers ordered lots of it.

[Tiberious]

Once people realize the new WW isn't a gimmick and that she's here to stay word of mouth will get people who have never tried the book before to pick it up. The numbers will go up.

[brettc1]

Hmm, coming off a sold out #600 and with an index ranking of 51.93, I figured the actual sales est. would be higher.

There're still pretty good, but I doubt they'll go up from here. Unless there is lots of wonder-buzz, if people were going to jump on board to give it a try, I think most of those folks already have. And we've seen countless times that when you remove a character, especially the mid-to-low sellers, from the main universe, then sales often go down - it's seems folks consider it unimportant or somesuch.

And this is the irony of our current story arc.

I agree with Amercian on this. By doing an "elseworld" story, it actually removes Diana from the possibility of crossovers in her regular book. The best we can probably hope for is guest stars who will likely be evil mirror version of themselves that Diana has to trash, possibly to the skeptical looks of those characters commited fans.

It does not mean things have to go badly, but it is a point to consider.

What might have been another way to go is to remove Diana and replace with her current version, no explanation given. Let the other characters try to figure out what the hell is going on along with the readership. Put the new character into crossovers as she encounters the DCU regulars on her unfolding mission in our universe.

[Ari Gold]

I find that series that need to rely on guest stars & crossovers I. Order to get sales don't tend to do very well in the long run. I far prefer when writers are given the opportunity to tell their own stories and grow an audience naturally.