Activision Says Female Leads Don't Sell Games

[Young Avenger]

http://www.1up.com/news/activision-games-female-leads


Activision doesn't believe female leads can sell games, and has even gone so far as to change characters to avoid a lady protagonist, according to former employees. Gamasutra reports that focus testing has led to a serious lack of females in games, and since 2005 only girl-focused licensed games like Dora or Barbie have featured female leads at all.

According to the report, a 2007 game from Treyarch was tentatively titled Black Lotus. It featured an Asian female assassin lead character based on Lucy Liu, and the development team was excited about the project. But seeing testosterone-heavy hits like Halo 3 and Modern Warfare, Activision decided that players don't want a lady at the helm. One former employee claims Activision "said they don't do female characters because they don't sell." Another, more bluntly, says they were "given specific direction to lose the chick." Black Lotus lives on now as True Crime: Hong Kong, having changed developers and, apparently, lead characters.

The former employees say this is endemic of a larger problem at Activision: the culture of development built on focus testing. Sources claim the publisher takes the feedback it gets to extremes, stifling innovation and sometimes even sacrificing quality by making time-intensive demands to change projects quickly. As a result, the focus test groups tend to want more of what they've already seen and enjoyed, rather than innovation, and the publisher is said to follow their lead.

"Activision has no room for 'we are making an open-world game with a Hong Kong action movie feel with a female lead,' because that game doesn't exist right now," said one source. "What they do have room for is, 'we are making an open-world game with a gangster main character who can steal cars and shoot people, but it will be in Hong Kong instead of Liberty City.'" As a result, sales dictate development. "If Activision does not see a female lead in the top five games that year, they will not have a female lead," says another source. The publisher will use games like Wet and Bayonetta to prove its point. The report even includes accusations from sources of skewed focus testing to achieve a desired result.

Activision, in response to the article, denied the claims. "Activision respects the creative vision of its development teams," said a company statement. "The company does not have a policy of telling its studios what game content they can develop, nor has the company told any of its studios that they cannot develop games with female lead characters. ... With respect to True Crime: Hong Kong, Activision did not mandate the gender of the lead character. Like all other game and media companies, Activision uses market research in order to better understand [what] gamers are looking for."

The full report is long, but well worth reading if you're curious for more information about Activision's practices. As the publishing giant already fights perceptual problems from its public falling out with West and Zampella, this kind of attention isn't going to do it any favors.

I wonder if Activision has ever heard of Metroid or Tomb Raider because this is ridiculous.

[blackdragon6]

heard the same regarding films, likewise with minority leads in games and films. it's the same excuse.

[Aziz Abbasi]

Resident Evil 3? Didn't sell well? Not an Activision game, but it has a female lead character

[Vaiyt]

Same shit that goes on in Hollywood, yada yada. Not surprising at all. And that's why we rarely get something remotely new in this medium.

People should try making their own stuff more instead of relying on "mash together whatever things seem to be a sucess nowadays". If everyone is following each other, who's gonna set the trends?

[Nyssane]

Game companies (and Hollywood) are too obsessed with making a ton of money rather than making a good product.

I do like that video games are really getting into character customization and allowing for the creation of a female protagonist. I hope this trend continues on because it seems like that's all we'll be getting of female leads. Now we just need shooting war games like Call of Duty to introduce some female characters.

[Vaiyt]

That's capitalism for ya; the purpose of businesses is to make money, the product is an afterthought.

The entertainment business is especially prolific with this kind of practice, since there's no way to set clear quality standards.

[aut0matic]

they're right. for the same reason most barbie dolls are female.

[Bruceleehulk]

Gears of war 3 is going to have 2 playable female characters, and Final Fantasy 13 sold really well and that game has a female character as it's lead.

edit: in 2008 Resident Evil 3 sold 3.5 million copies worldwide so yes it did sold well.

[Guy1]

Oh yeah this is going to go over well.

[Legato]

Also Sarah Kerrigan has been considered the most memorable character in the Starcraft games and also one of the lead characters in the game. So instead of using that excuse, especially since that excuse is completly wrong, they might aswell just say they dont want to use female leads

[StoneGold]

I wonder if Activision has ever heard of Metroid or Tomb Raider because this is ridiculous.

Tomb Raider hasn't really sold in years. And Metroid became something of a gaming icon before anyone realized Samus was a woman.


See, now you want to prove them wrong, you go to the games that make Ubisoft the most money are like the Raise a Baby games.

[Young Avenger]

Resident Evil 3? Didn't sell well? Not an Activision game, but it has a female lead character

The Resident Evil series in general has a selection of female leads and always did well.


Tomb Raider hasn't really sold in years.

Yea but it's still an iconic franchise with a highly recognizable female lead.

I feel Activision using Bayonetta is a bad example. The game didn't fail. It just didn't met Sega's sale expectations

[Vaiyt]

Tomb Raider hasn't really sold in years.
See, this is a good example of the kind of skewed judgement those people make. Why is it that Tomb Raider not selling is a discredit to female leads, while the games with male leads that fail are simply not counted?

Since the publishers think female leads do not sell well, they never make it to the kind of low-risk, high-reward franchises Activision wants. Since they never get to those franchises, they tend to not be top sellers. Since they're not top sellers, the publishers think female leads do not sell well. See the pattern?

[StreetFighterRyu]

Am I the only one that believes that having lead female characters wouldn't really make much of a difference in gaming? I mean, what if you changed the lead character you play as in one of the Modern Warfare games? Or FEAR. I don't know. I just don't see what difference it would make besides dialogue.

I would understand for some games like Legend of Zelda, the Mario games, Devil May Cry, etc. (I don't think a female Dante would have been cool really)

[sHayden]

activision is a bunch of dickweeds anyway.

I wouldn't care if a game had a female lead, or a minority lead as was mentioned in another post in this thread. JUST GIVE ME A GOOD STORY! Quit making "giant space marine in clunky armor with a gun" type crap over and over and over.
But then again, maybe gamers need to get smarter too.

[worstblogever]

In certain fighting games, fan support seems to indicate folks want to play as the female characters more than the male ones. I mean, Darkstalkers fans seem to be all about Morrigan, Lilith, and Felicia, for example.

But, you know, there was also Bayonetta, more recently. Wasn't Parasite Eve big, in its day?


Even without all the examples getting thrown out in this thread, that thought seems misogynistic on some levels, and friggin' uninformed on others.

[Aziz Abbasi]

The Resident Evil series in general has a selection of female leads and always did wellRE3 is the only one with a female lead only, the rest all have a male lead, even RECV which have a big chunk of it that maybe goes over the half since the beginning with Claire playable

[Darth Joker]

It should be interesting to see how Metroid: Other M sells then.

From what I've read, Metroid: Other M plays up Samus' femininity much moreso than the other Metroid games do. If there's a significant subsection of video gamers that don't want to play a video game with a female lead, they won't be getting Metroid: Other M. There's no way you can ignore how Samus is a woman in that game.

[Libaax]

Hehe Bayonetta is even more hailed than Devil May Cry and the lead female character is infamous but atleast she is different males that dominate.

Seeing crappy companies like this talk crap like this i respect games like Bayonetta even more.

For me its like Tv,film,comics i want more female characters in lead roles. It cant help but being a different story then. a Ripley is different than in other SF films.

[Jmacq1]

It should be interesting to see how Metroid: Other M sells then.

From what I've read, Metroid: Other M plays up Samus' femininity much moreso than the other Metroid games do. If there's a significant subsection of video gamers that don't want to play a video game with a female lead, they won't be getting Metroid: Other M. There's no way you can ignore how Samus is a woman in that game.

That depends:

If it's "emphasizing her femininity" by giving her a sexy character model that players can ogle while they play, then it'll probably be just fine. Just don't take it to the ridiculously fetishized extremes of Bayonetta and they'll likely be fine.

If it's "emphasizing her femininity" by having some kind of serious romantic subplot, it might turn folks off.

Don't get me wrong, I loved Bayonetta, it was a tremendously fun game...but I can see where the over-the-top sexualization might have been just a little too much for folks. Or that a lot of folks might not have "gotten" that it was intentionally over-the-top.

[M.I.Brooks]

Make it a good game, with a good female lead and we'll be much happier to play.

I'd play games more often if it had a good feamle lead, or the ablity to choose between a male or female character.

There's a huge niche out there that needs to be filled and I'll be happy to be one of them.

I prefer to play mostly RPG's because I can chosse a female, which suites my needs as a female gamer.

[Agent Helix]

If anything kills Metroid : Other M, it's going to be that it has one of the worst names in recent memory.

[Vivica Kang]

How do they know about Female leads not selling?:mad: And this is from the same place where majority of their crap has been where they just so quick to release a certain game that people are tired of. And they are trying to bash the females...How about Activision should take notes on how the Metroid franchise is getting money.

[Xero Kaiser]

In certain fighting games, fan support seems to indicate folks want to play as the female characters more than the male ones. I mean, Darkstalkers fans seem to be all about Morrigan, Lilith, and Felicia, for example.

Yeah, I can't think of a single fighting game where that's actually true. Not MK, not SF, not Tekken, not SC...nothing really.

Even with Darkstalkers, Capcom took a poll a few months back about what characters people wanted to see and it was all Talbain and Jedah. Capcom just refuses to get off of Morrigan for whatever reason. And Felicia? Nobody likes Felicia. You should see all the bitching about the fact that she made it into MvC3.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Yeah, I can't think of a single fighting game where that's actually true. Not MK, not SF, not Tekken, not SC...nothing really.

Even with Darkstalkers, Capcom took a poll a few months back about what characters people wanted to see and it was all Talbain and Jedah. Capcom just refuses to get off of Morrigan for whatever reason. And Felicia? Nobody likes Felicia. You should see all the bitching about the fact that she made it into MvC3.

I think it may apply for Samurai Shodown, to be honest.


And about that Darkstalkers poll... Is was that for US fans, Japanese fans, or worldwide?


Because for a bit of fighting games, there seems to be a disconnect between what the Japanese fans like, and what the Western fans like.

[jesse_custer]

Which Samurai Shodown?

The male characters of that series seem more popular.

[M.I.Brooks]

In certain fighting games, fan support seems to indicate folks want to play as the female characters more than the male ones. I mean, Darkstalkers fans seem to be all about Morrigan, Lilith, and Felicia, for example.

But, you know, there was also Bayonetta, more recently. Wasn't Parasite Eve big, in its day?


Even without all the examples getting thrown out in this thread, that thought seems misogynistic on some levels, and friggin' uninformed on others.
Exactly, I mean, girl want to play fighting games too and it's nice to be avle to play a character of the same gender.

Women can kick ass too.

[Agent Helix]

http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/streetfighter4-kenselect.jpg

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Which Samurai Shodown?

The male characters of that series seem more popular.

I thought Nakoruru and her sister were the most popular characters in the series.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/streetfighter4-kenselect.jpg

AIKIK


All I know is Ken.

[jesse_custer]

I thought Nakoruru and her sister were the most popular characters in the series.

I don't know about that. When I played the first three games, I never played against her at the arcade.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I don't know about that. When I played the first three games, I never played against her at the arcade.

Yeah, I'm leaning more towards the Japanese fanbase, assuming they are bigger than the Western fanbase.

[jesse_custer]

Given that male characters are presented as the main characters in the Samurai Shodown series, I'm not sure what the point of speculation is without evidence.

[KMACthaKilla]

there have been great games with women and more without. games even with female leads usually us it and make it like its a girl and she is fighting like a guy and shooting guns when a guy should be doing it, you know they make it so that the girl is outstanding rather than normal. i'm fine with a guy or girl. activison is pretty dumb with ok games even if they think that they dont need to go around saying it, i bet other companies know it too but aren't stupid enough to go around making announcements of it

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Given that male characters are presented as the main characters in the Samurai Shodown series, I'm not sure what the point of speculation is without evidence.

Would you like a poll? Because all I have right now aren't direct sources. But this is what I've read and heard, either via SNK wiki, or from other sources.

By the time Samurai Shodown 2 came out, the most popular character was Nakoruru, Haohmaru taking second place. Gen-An from what I understand is the least popular SS character.


They are also the two with movies dedicated to them, but Nakoruru has been on much more SNK merchandise. She's even the mascot for some of SNK's nature awareness and social action programs, along with Terry Bogard.



Also, Haohmaru and Nakoruru are both considered main characters in two games: SS1 and SS2.

[Nyssane]

That depends:

If it's "emphasizing her femininity" by giving her a sexy character model that players can ogle while they play, then it'll probably be just fine. Just don't take it to the ridiculously fetishized extremes of Bayonetta and they'll likely be fine.

If it's "emphasizing her femininity" by having some kind of serious romantic subplot, it might turn folks off.

Don't get me wrong, I loved Bayonetta, it was a tremendously fun game...but I can see where the over-the-top sexualization might have been just a little too much for folks. Or that a lot of folks might not have "gotten" that it was intentionally over-the-top.

I gotta be honest, I didn't get Bayonetta simply for that reason. It's like the only thinking these video game companies have is "we either don't use female protagonists at all, or we do and we make them as sexual as possible."

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I gotta be honest, I didn't get Bayonetta simply for that reason. It's like the only thinking these video game companies have is "we either don't use female protagonists at all, or we do and we make them as sexual as possible."

Agreed. But then again, Beyond Good and Evil, a game that could have been potentially groundbreaking in this regard, got terrible sales, and is now just a cult classic.

[Young Avenger]

Given that male characters are presented as the main characters in the Samurai Shodown series, I'm not sure what the point of speculation is without evidence.

With Samurai Showdown 6 Iroha has become a very popular character. She got a bunch of merchandise in Japan and has appeared on Queen's Gate. She's approaching Mai levels of popularity

[StoneGold]

See, this is a good example of the kind of skewed judgement those people make. Why is it that Tomb Raider not selling is a discredit to female leads, while the games with male leads that fail are simply not counted?


Because the OP brought the franchise up.


But really, it's a fact of life. You may not like it, but there is something of a "standard" when it comes to popular entertainment.

Although bringing up Japanese fighting games is kind of tangential, because that's not Activision's business. Their business is mostly shooters, action sports, Guitar Hero, movie games, etc. Different market.


But really, all of you suck, because not one of you can bring up Bobby Kotick's recent loss in the sexual harassment case?

[Bruceleehulk]

Chun-Li is the most popular female in Street Fighter, Chun-li, Ryu, and Ken share around the same level of popularity .

edit: from what I herd about Felica most people akain her to Dan Hibki, and consider her to be a joke character, becaus of her moves.

[JCAll]

Tomb Raider hasn't really sold in years.
Ironically, Tomb Raider stopped selling because they just remade the same game over and over. The same stagnation that Activision seems to take as a selling point is what killed Tomb Raider, it was only kept afloat as long as it was because of Lara Croft.


And Metroid became something of a gaming icon before anyone realized Samus was a woman.
It became a gaming icon before anyone saw the ending of the first game?
...
Nevermind, I remember the first Metroid. That's entirely possible.

[Vaiyt]

Agreed. But then again, Beyond Good and Evil, a game that could have been potentially groundbreaking in this regard, got terrible sales, and is now just a cult classic.
For reasons that are entirely unrelated to Jade, mind you. Same with Mirror's Edge.

Though, I'd never underestimate the misogyny and stupidity of the average hardk0ar gam0r.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

Honestly if Modern Warfare 3 starred a female soldier, or Halo 4 a female Spartan, or the next Starcraft stars Kerrigan(which it probably will) I doubt it woud have a meaningful impact on sales.

[FalconX2000]

I sincerely hope Mirror's Edge 2 enjoys better sales than the first game. The original Mirror's Edge was flawed, but when it flew it was mindblowingly good.

[Young Avenger]

To my understanding Mirror Edge did sell little over a million. How is that bad?

EDIT: According to vgchartz Mirror's Edge did in fact sell over a million worldwide
http://www.vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php?name=Mirror+Edge&publisher=&console=&genre=&minSales=0&results=50&sort=Total

It can be used as a positive example

[StoneGold]

Ironically, Tomb Raider stopped selling because they just remade the same game over and over. The same stagnation that Activision seems to take as a selling point is what killed Tomb Raider, it was only kept afloat as long as it was because of Lara Croft.
That's not really irony


It became a gaming icon before anyone saw the ending of the first game?
...
Nevermind, I remember the first Metroid. That's entirely possible.

IT wasn't just the ending, it was the special ending. That most people never saw without the JUSTIN BAILEY code. And pre-internet, the word didn't spread quite the same way.

[aut0matic]

Honestly if Modern Warfare 3 starred a female soldier, or Halo 4 a female Spartan, I doubt it woud have a meaningful impact on sales.

those are established franchises, that have been established with male leads. they might be able to get away with a game or 2 centered on a female lead, but i'm pretty sure it would piss off the fanbase.

[Young Avenger]

those are established franchises, that have been established with male leads. they might be able to get away with a game or 2 centered on a female lead, but i'm pretty sure it would piss off the fanbase.

I don't know about you but I know no one that plays CoD care who they play as. The campaign switches leads on every mission and the warring fractions change with every map. No big deal for CoD is it gets a female lead.

[StoneGold]

I don't know about you but I know no one that plays CoD care who they play as. The campaign switches leads on every mission and the warring fractions change with every map. No big deal for CoD is it gets a female lead.

None of which are women, though. Never underestimate the sexual confusion of a 13-year-old who doesn't want to play as a woman because that's gay.

[Young Avenger]

None of which are women, though. Never underestimate the sexual confusion of a 13-year-old who doesn't want to play as a woman because that's gay.

All that does is open the gate for me to call them gay for not liking women.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

those are established franchises, that have been established with male leads. they might be able to get away with a game or 2 centered on a female lead, but i'm pretty sure it would piss off the fanbase.

I don't think it would piss off the fanbase at all. At least no more than a small vocal minority. I doubt when Starcraft 2 comes out and Kerrigan is the lead character that there is going to be any real backlash.

[StoneGold]

All that does is open the gate for me to call them gay for not liking women.

OK, great. Go tell them all that. Because until you do, they aren't going to know.


Although your logic is still kind of messed up. How does not wanting to be a woman make you gay? Hell, you don't even have to particularly like women to want to have sex with them.

In any event, I've run across the problem first-hand. Was doing a promotion for a video game requiring facebook users to use one of the female avatars as their profile image, I don't know how many responses I got from troubled 12-year-olds afraid that their friends would think they were gay if they used the image.

[StoneGold]

I don't think it would piss off the fanbase at all. At least no more than a small vocal minority. I doubt when Starcraft 2 comes out and Kerrigan is the lead character that there is going to be any real backlash.

That said, the main character in Starcraft is a cursor.

[FalconX2000]

To my understanding Mirror Edge did sell little over a million. How is that bad?

EDIT: According to vgchartz Mirror's Edge did in fact sell over a million worldwide
http://www.vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php?name=Mirror+Edge&publisher=&console=&genre=&minSales=0&results=50&sort=Total

It can be used as a positive example

It was still moderately dissappointing considering the ambition EA had for the game. Fortunately, the execs decided that the core concept of the game was not at fault and gave the thumbs up for a sequel.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

That said, the main character in Starcraft is a cursor.

Um...no? That's like saying the main character in Mass Effect or Mario Galaxy is a controller.

Jim Raynor is the main character in Wings of Liberty. Sarah Kerrigan will most likely be the main in Heart of the Swarm.

[StoneGold]

Um...no? That's like saying the main character in Mass Effect or Mario Galaxy is a controller.

Jim Raynor is the main character in Wings of Liberty. Sarah Kerrigan will most likely be the main in Heart of the Swarm.

See, here's the problem with that, you're confusing what you're seeing on the screen with what you hold in your hands. Controllers are things you hold in your hands. Cursors and characters are things that are on the screen. You know who you see a lot in their game? Mario and Commander Shepard. You know who you never see during the actual gameplay? Any of the main characters in Starcraft.

[aut0matic]

stonegold's right, kerrigan isn't the main playable character. the story and cutscenes might focus on her, but count on the majority of units you'll actually be controlling being male.

[Sano]

Few points.

Morrigan and Felicia are INSANELY popular in Japan. I can't even remember the last time I've seen a Japanese video game magazine that didn't have fan art of one of them. Even to this very day. Their Japanese popularity far eclipses any popularity Talbain or Jedah have anywhere. Lilith is really in Japan too. Don't even get me started on fan made comics / doujin based on those characters... A lot of which is not PG... Their inclusion in MVC3 is no big surprise really.

Of course Metroid The Other M is going to sell well but that is a bad example. There's tons of Nintendo fanboys who only buy Nintendo made games for Nintendo's home consoles (in Japan moreso). That's been going on since Nintendo 64. Third parties always suffer on Nintendo home consoles because of this. Nintendo games always do well on the Wii. Has more to do with fanboyism / loyalty but to be fair, Nintendo still makes some of the best games on the planet and I can't remember the last time I played a bad Nintendo game myself.

Activision is not in that same boat. I'm going to buy Metroid The Other M myself and am looking forward to it, so not really hating on Nintendo. It is what it is. Nintendo game on a Nintendo home console will sell, regardless of the gender of the protagonist. Yes I know Team Ninja is working on the game, but just being a Nintendo franchise is enough. Like Donkey Kong Country, 3D Metroid games, the last Punch Out, etc.

Anyway since I only play Activision games that involve Marvel characters their views on this subject affect me in no way whatsoever. It just means I'll never get my Spider-Girl video game. BIG SURPRISE...:tongue:

[StreetFighterRyu]

Um...no? That's like saying the main character in Mass Effect or Mario Galaxy is a controller.

Jim Raynor is the main character in Wings of Liberty. Sarah Kerrigan will most likely be the main in Heart of the Swarm.

Actually, in most cases with strategy games, they don't really have a "main character". You're always addressed as "commander" on screen. You never see what you look like or hear yourself talk. So basically you're playing as yourself.

Now I don't know if this is true with all strategy games. I'm just pointing this out. At least with shooters, you know you're a dude, and sometimes you have a name.

[JCAll]

Actually, in most cases with strategy games, they don't really have a "main character". You're always addressed as "commander" on screen. You never see what you look like or hear yourself talk. So basically you're playing as yourself.

Now I don't know if this is true with all strategy games. I'm just pointing this out. At least with shooters, you know you're a dude, and sometimes you have a name.

I don't even really see that a lot with Strategy games. Advance Wars did it, at least if the first one. Some of the Command and Conquers did it as well. But usually you just seem to be playing a disembodied hand moving the pieces about. Characters turning to the camera to address the player is something they sould really go back to..

[Xero Kaiser]

See, here's the problem with that, you're confusing what you're seeing on the screen with what you hold in your hands. Controllers are things you hold in your hands. Cursors and characters are things that are on the screen. You know who you see a lot in their game? Mario and Commander Shepard. You know who you never see during the actual gameplay? Any of the main characters in Starcraft.

You do play as the main characters in SC when they're actually on the field

[FalconX2000]

I don't even really see that a lot with Strategy games. Advance Wars did it, at least if the first one. Some of the Command and Conquers did it as well. But usually you just seem to be playing a disembodied hand moving the pieces about. Characters turning to the camera to address the player is something they sould really go back to..

Mech Commander 2, Emperor: Battle for Dune, and the Red Alert series also did it.

[Agent Helix]

You do play as the main characters in SC when they're actually on the field

You give them orders, it's not the same thing.

There's an enormous disconnect between the kind of "control" in an RTS and the kind of control in a fighting game, or a third person shooter, or a platformer. You're issuing commands in an RTS, you're not taking direct control of a character. They're your subordinates, whereas Lara Croft or Marcus Fenix are your surrogate. You ARE that person when you're playing the game, and that's where the major difference, and why StarCraft is a really bad example to the point of it really shouldn't even be in the equation.

[StoneGold]

You give them orders, it's not the same thing.

There's an enormous disconnect between the kind of "control" in an RTS and the kind of control in a fighting game, or a third person shooter, or a platformer. You're issuing commands in an RTS, you're not taking direct control of a character. They're your subordinates, whereas Lara Croft or Marcus Fenix are your surrogate. You ARE that person when you're playing the game, and that's where the major difference, and why StarCraft is a really bad example to the point of it really shouldn't even be in the equation.

Now where it does become interesting is in a game like Mass Effect, where you can run around as Commander Shepard as both genders. Although it would be interesting if there was data on which gender was played more.

[Ray B.]

Yeah, I can't think of a single fighting game where that's actually true. Not MK, not SF, not Tekken, not SC...nothing really.

Even with Darkstalkers, Capcom took a poll a few months back about what characters people wanted to see and it was all Talbain and Jedah. Capcom just refuses to get off of Morrigan for whatever reason. And Felicia? Nobody likes Felicia. You should see all the bitching about the fact that she made it into MvC3.

um you DO know that Cammy won the poll of which character fans wanted most in the home version of SFIV right?Not to mention the huge thread on Capcom's forums wanting Sakura in SFIV and in SSFIV people wanted Ibuki in it in SFIII fan demand put Chun Li back in the game and in SCII fan demand put Sophtia and Seung Mina in the home version.And don't even get me started on KOF fans and Mai *and King to a lesser extent*.

[aut0matic]

Now where it does become interesting is in a game like Mass Effect, where you can run around as Commander Shepard as both genders. Although it would be interesting if there was data on which gender was played more.

shepard is portrayed as a male in the commercials, so if mass effect had an official canon (idk if it does or not, never played it) i would be willing to bet they would refer to shepard as a man.

it's nice that they give players the choice to customize their player.l


um you DO know that Cammy won the poll of which character fans wanted most in the home version of SFIV right?Not to mention the huge thread on Capcom's forums wanting Sakura in SFIV and in SSFIV people wanted Ibuki in it in SFIII fan demand put Chun Li back in the game and in SCII fan demand put Sophtia and Seung Mina in the home version.And don't even get me started on KOF fans and Mai *and King to a lesser extent*.

... are you trying to say that ryu (and to a lesser extent, ken) isn't the main protagonist of street fighter? i GUARANTEE if you took out characters like zangief, sagat, or akuma, fans would want them in the next street fighter game, too...

[StoneGold]

shepard is portrayed as a male in the commercials, so if mass effect had an official canon (idk if it does or not, never played it) i would be willing to bet they would refer to shepard as a man.

it's nice that they give players the choice to customize their player.l



More than that, Male Shep is the only character with a pre-rendered facial model. Fem Shep is all create-a-character parts. Thus, when the toy comes out, it's male Shep.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.comicsalliance.com/media/2010/01/masseffect2toys.jpg

But you're right, they use Male Shep to sell the game, not Fem Shep. Although plenty of shots of Miranda. Because sex sells, just not when you're playing as a woman.

[StoneGold]

... are you trying to say that ryu (and to a lesser extent, ken) isn't the main protagonist of street fighter? i GUARANTEE if you took out characters like zangief, sagat, or akuma, fans would want them in the next street fighter game, too...

That's kind of what happened with SFIII. Originally, Ryu and Ken weren't going to be in it. Fans screamed bloody murder before it came out. They put them in. And then by Third Strike, they completely wussed out on their attempt at doing something different, and threw in almost all the old characters.

[Bruceleehulk]

you have no idea how Popluar Chun-Li is do you? , oh and Ryu isn't the the main protagonist of street fighter, just the poster Boy. Street changes Protgonist from game to game.

Edit: Chun-li is infact one of the most popular characters in Street Fighter and is right up there with Ryu and Ken in populality.

SF1 main Protgonist ( Ryu)

SFA2 Main protgonists ( multiple people since every character had their own boss)

SFA3 Main protgonistists ( Ryu, Cammy, Guile)

SF2 Main protgonistists ( Guile & Chun-li)

SF4 / SSF4 main characters ( Abel, Chun-Li, Guile, Cammy, C.Viper, Bison, Juri and Seth)

SF3 Double Impact main character ( Alex)

[Surtur]

A bit off topic, but I find it annoying when you get a game like an RPG or with some RPG qualities..but only certain genders can be a certain class.

Like in the Diablo games..why can I not play as a male wizard/socrerer? That always bothered me, it's not as if only females in that universe can learn magic.

[aut0matic]

you have no idea how Popluar Chun-Li is do you? , oh and Ryu isn't the the main protagonist of street fighter, just the poster Boy. Street changes Protgonist from game to game.

Edit: Chun-li is infact one of the most popular characters in Street Fighter and is right up there with Ryu and Ken in populality.

SF1 main Protgonist ( Ryu)

SFA2 Main protgonists ( multiple people since every character had their own boss)

SFA3 Main protgonistists ( Ryu, Cammy, Guile)

SF2 Main protgonistists ( Guile & Chun-li)

SF4 / SSF4 main characters ( Abel, Chun-Li, Guile, Cammy, C.Viper, Bison, Juri and Seth)

SF3 Double Impact main character ( Alex)

ryu always has the most canonical ending, doesn't he? and you're saying seth, the final boss for every character, is one of the main protagonists in street fighter 4? :confused:

[Young Avenger]

ryu always has the most canonical ending, doesn't he? and you're saying seth, the final boss for every character, is one of the main protagonists in street fighter 4? :confused:

There isn't much to any of Ryu's ending other than him training and vowing to be better. It doesn't need to beat the big bad to get that ending

[aut0matic]

There isn't much to any of Ryu's ending other than him training and vowing to be better. It doesn't need to beat the big bad to get that ending

according to ryu's ending, he kills seth and hadoukens the shit out of whatever that machine was.

other characters' endings have seth live, etc...

[Bruceleehulk]

and Seth is the main antagonist in SF4/ SSF4 which makes him a main character. their are only 5 protagonists in SF4 /SSF4 and they are Guile, Chun-li, , Cammy , Abel and C.Viper. Ryu is also possibely on that list as well. Seth, Bison and Juri are the main atagonists of SF4 / SSF4.

edit: for the overall sceme of things of SFA2, SFA3 , SF2, SF4/SSF4 Bison is the main antagonist.

[Bruceleehulk]

actually the Seth Ryu killed was a clone, and not Seth himself, cause Bison's SF4 ending shows that there are multiple Seths. Ryu's SSF4 ending happens sometime later after his SF4 ending. Even Abel didn't taking on the actually Seth , the one he took on in his ending was a clone as well. the real Seth only appears in Bison's SF4 ending, SSF4 Ending, C.Viper's SF4 ending, and Juri's ending.

edit: Juri appears in both of Seth's and Bison's SSF4 endings.

[StoneGold]

you have no idea how Popluar Chun-Li is do you? , oh and Ryu isn't the the main protagonist of street fighter, just the poster Boy. Street changes Protgonist from game to game.

Edit: Chun-li is infact one of the most popular characters in Street Fighter and is right up there with Ryu and Ken in populality.

SF1 main Protgonist ( Ryu)

SFA2 Main protgonists ( multiple people since every character had their own boss)

SFA3 Main protgonistists ( Ryu, Cammy, Guile)

SF2 Main protgonistists ( Guile & Chun-li)

SF4 / SSF4 main characters ( Abel, Chun-Li, Guile, Cammy, C.Viper, Bison, Juri and Seth)

SF3 Double Impact main character ( Alex)

If you have to go on a message board to figure out who the protagonist of a game is by which one has the most likely canon ending....

Granted, you're also talking about who has the featured storyline, which are really all but nonexistent in fighting games. End of the day, Ryu is Street Fighter. He's the guy on all the marketing material. He's the guy featured in the main trailer. He's the guy featured in the Street Fighter vs. Tekken footage. He's the guy in the Mega Man Legends trailer.

Regardless of who the protagonist supposedly is, he's the star of Street Fighter. Which is why it is always so confusing when America makes movies, they star someone else. Which could be part of why they do so poorly (also because they all suck).

[Nyssane]

Chun-Li's the star of Street Fighter: The Legend of Chun-Li.

[Gilda Dent]

shepard is portrayed as a male in the commercials, so if mass effect had an official canon (idk if it does or not, never played it) i would be willing to bet they would refer to shepard as a man.

it's nice that they give players the choice to customize their player.l

There is a canon, but it's gender neutral, and in materials outside the main games (novels, comics, iPod game), they're careful to avoid direct references to anything the player can directly affect in-game. In other words, there is no official canon regarding events the player can directly affect, but there is a default story, a set of events that are assumed to have occurred in the first game for players who don't import a character. This default changes slightly depending on the gender the character chooses:


1. Shepard lets the council die and it is now populated entirely by humans.
2. Male Shepard saves Ashley, female Shepard saves Kaiden.
3. Regardless of gender, Wrex is killed.
4. The Rachni queen was killed.
5. No romance occurred with any of the three potential romances.
6. Any other character you're forced to kill or save also apparently died; this can be deduced by their absence in the default version of the second game whereas nearly every character you saved in an imported game will show up in the Mass Effect 2 version of that game. This usually amounts to a cameo, but a small number have a side quest.
6. Who ends up on the council has no default; it's determined retroactively by a dialog choice in Mass Effect 2.
7. No mission not part of the main plot in the first game is referenced in the second one. This could mean one of two things: Shepard killed any relevant characters or the mission was never undertaken. For example, if you take on Helena Blake's side mission (killing rival warlords), you're given the choice of either killing her later on or talking her into giving up crime (if you have a high enough paragon or renegade skill). If you complete her mission and let her go, she gives up crime and shows up as a social worker on Omega in ME2. Thus we can assume, based on her absence her side mission was either ignored or that she was killed.


More than that, Male Shep is the only character with a pre-rendered facial model. Fem Shep is all create-a-character parts. Thus, when the toy comes out, it's male Shep.

You're right about the promotional materials, but there is a pre-rendered female Shepard. In ME, it's referred to as the "Iconic" face during character creation and in the second it's the "default". Specifically, this one:

http://www.videogamesblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/commander-shephard-mass-effect-2-screenshot-character.jpg


But you're right, they use Male Shep to sell the game, not Fem Shep. Although plenty of shots of Miranda. Because sex sells, just not when you're playing as a woman.

In the first game, they openly make reference to this in the mission on Noveria. When talking to Lorik, he makes a comment regarding the reaction young males had to Liara's mother when she passed through. If you have Liara in your party, she'll comment on the strange reaction young males often have to her species. Ashley will make a similar comment if you have her, but not Liara, and then say that she blames video games and the extranet. To use a TVtropes term, they're lampshading that Liara was designed from the ground up to appeal to young male gamers.

Along the lines of male Shepard being used in all of the promotional material, you get a subtle hint that male Shepard is assumed to be the preferred avatar for most players. The character that shows up to aid Shepard in the pre-credits sequence in an imported game is whichever one Shepard romanced in the first game, unless that character died in the first game. Otherwise, it's the opposite-sex human romance option. Regardless of which of the three (Liara, Ashley, Kaiden) comes to help, that character will be wearing Ashley's default pink and white armor, implying that the developers assumed most players will be playing as a male.

It's also interesting to note how gender is used in the minor supporting characters. Humans are represented by roughly an equal number of males and females, as are Quarians, and Asari are all female, but all other on-screen aliens of any species are male, or at least have human male voices. There are references to female Drell, Krogan, and Turians, but none ever appear onscreen, and all characters not human, Quarian, or Asari are voiced by males. In ME, most of these were voiced by Armin Shimmerman.

Also relevant, given the comment earlier that male gamers don't want to play as a female because that might be seen as "gay", is the apparent lack of human homosexuality. A female Shepard can romance Liara in the first game, but if Shepard romances both Liara and one of the humans, during the "you have to pick one of us" scene, Liara is careful to emphasize that, technically, she's not a woman as her species consists of a single sex. In ME2, it's possible for a female Shepard to romance Kelly and/or Samara, but neither leads to consummation, and a male Shepard has no male romance options in either game, human or otherwise, consummated or not. A male Shepard isn't the least bit gay. This is curious for a Bioware game, given that they have a history of putting in one female and one male character that is a romance prospect for a PC of either sex. When talking about this aspect of ME2, a Bioware spokesperson said they chose not to have any homosexuality in the game because they wanted to preserve a "PG13" feel for the game. This seems strange, given that the sex scenes, at least those I've played, all fade out just before any disrobing occurs. Kelly's dance is more sexually explicit than the "official" romance scenes, again, among those that I've seen, though I've only sexed up the aliens of both sexes. It seems obvious to me that a same-sex romance could have been handled with the same fade-out; I suspect Bioware was fearing the same idiotic fear-mongering that the pretty tame sex scene in ME caused among some (and by some, I mean Fox News).

Also interesting when it comes to gender in ME is that the major theme running through most of the sidequests is the importance and impact of family relationships (also a dominant theme in Dragon Age and Jade Empire), with a particular focus on the father-child relationships. Methinks a good number of ME2's writers have daddy issues, given the number of absent/incompetent fathers and father figures in that game.

I've played a lot of both ME and ME2.

As to the general idea of the OP, the obvious solution to me seems to be offering a gender-selectable PC wherever feasible. When a game is tied closely to telling the story of a specific character, this isn't going to be practical most of the time, but with something like an RPG or a platformer, it seems so obvious a solution that I'm surprised it isn't the default way of doing things. It's pretty much irrelevant for a first-person shooter or a RTS or any other game in which you never or very seldom see your character on-screen.

[Ray B.]

If you have to go on a message board to figure out who the protagonist of a game is by which one has the most likely canon ending....

Granted, you're also talking about who has the featured storyline, which are really all but nonexistent in fighting games. End of the day, Ryu is Street Fighter. He's the guy on all the marketing material. He's the guy featured in the main trailer. He's the guy featured in the Street Fighter vs. Tekken footage. He's the guy in the Mega Man Legends trailer.

Regardless of who the protagonist supposedly is, he's the star of Street Fighter. Which is why it is always so confusing when America makes movies, they star someone else. Which could be part of why they do so poorly (also because they all suck).

I'd say Chun Li's just as important as Ryu is and has been featured in just as many games,marketing and merchandise sure Ryu's usally announced first but she's never far behind Ryu may be the leading man but Chun Li's the leading woman.

[Bruceleehulk]

this is pretty much want went on in SFA3 according to Vasil10


Street Fighter Zero 3 first starts off with Vega tracking down Ryu
and confronting him, then tried to brainwash Ryu into giving into psycho
power. Ryu has an inner conflict with himself on whether to give in,
similar to his conflict to give into satsui no hadou. At any rate, he does
give in, though it's important to note that brainwashed psycho power Ryu is
not the same as Satsui no hadou Ryu.
Anyways, Ken and Sakura coincidentally arrive just at the same time as
Sagat arrives to see Ryu again. Sagat, who has regained his honorable
warrior spirit since confronting Dan in SFZ2 is infuriated when he sees how
low Vega stooped (or maybe Sagat was in the process of regaining it thanks
to Dan and seeing Vega stoop so low as to brainwash Ryu clinched it.
Could be either). Sagat fights psycho Ryu while Ken and Sakura fought
Vega (this is official statement, though you can sooorta see it in the
games if you study the dialogue really analytically, though that's kind of a
stretch there and still requires some guesswork as to what the dialogue
means). Sagat beats psycho Ryu and then, judging by the game, Ryu managed
to break out of his brainwashing and knock Vega away, forcing Vega to
retreat. That ends Ryu's main portion of the story.


The next main character of SFZ3 could be considered to be Cammy, since
she has a huge plot around her in SFZ3. This one most likely happened
after Ryu's part of the plot, and basically involves how for reasons she
can't figure out, Shadaloo decided to terminate her. This probably happened
around the same time as Rose's portion of SFZ3's plot; even though the two
characters' plots don't interlap too much, Rose's fight with the girl(s) in
the game does indirectly indicate this, though of course I'm not sure and
it really doesn't make too much difference either way (Rose can be considered
a semi-main character of SFZ3. Check out her bio for her story during SFZ3).
At any rate, Cammy encounters Balrog and probably Juli and Juni (judging from
her in-game storyline) during this period (Balrog and Juli were sent to
terminate her in some fashion). However, along with Dhalsim weakening the
bindings the psycho drive had on them, she managed to convince Juli and
Juni as well as all the rest of the girls how they were truly expendable to
Vega, and so all thirteen of the girls turned on Vega. In the process,
they were all almost killed. This is yet another official statement which
can also be realized through a really analytical look at the game's
storylines, though like Ken, Sakura, and Sagat's fight against Vega and
psycho Ryu, it's rather hard to realize it without the official statements
(though not as hard, thank goodness). Anyway, Vega was finally forced to
retreat once again, and Cammy made her way to the psycho drive and use it
to save the rest of the girls.



Finally, the last main character of SFZ3 is Guile. His story had to
have happened last in SFZ3 since it's the one that finally ends Vega by
blowing him and the base housing the psycho drive up. Basically, Guile
catches up to Nash and Chun-Li, then finally decides to join them and
together their combined efforts take down Vega for good in SFZ3 (though
he would come back for SF2). Nash and Guile confront Vega in the psycho
drive room of Shadaloo headquarters and Nash sacrifices himself to hold
off Vega while the entire base explodes and many people including Guile
escape.

SF2


Besides the personal invitation thing and Vega's new body, there is
very very little information given out by Capcom about what officially
happened during Street Fighter 2. The main confirmed info is that Gouki,
who wasn't registered and signed into the tournament, jumped in and snuffed
Vega at the end using the shungokusatsu, and Ryu found Vega's smoldering
remains afterwards. SF4 reveals that Gouki appeared on the scene after Cammy
received her startling revelation from Vega and after Guile held back from
taking Vega out himself. Oh, and Blanka was rumored to have fought Guile, as
it's stated in HnN that Blanka's mother came to seek him out after hearing
rumours of him fighting "a man in a military uniform". Of course, Vega is in
a military uniform, too, but that's a bit less plausible.

The champion of the Street Fighter 2 tournament has also never been
stated, and there likely wasn't one due to Gouki's intervention, prior to
Guile, Cammy and most likely also T. Hawk roughing Vega as well as being
roughed up.


Street Fighter 2: Hearing about a second Street Fighter 2 tournament, Ryu
enters and participates to continue to test and hone his skills [Conjecture
based off in-game storyline]. He reaches the last stage in Thailand but not
before Gouki's already left wih a pile of blazing powder in front of Ryu.
He's concluded that though he made it to the end of the tournament, he still
hasn't reached the top by any means and continues to always strive forward
(Official and from Ryu's Revival ending plus specially noted in AAC).

SF4


Ryu's SF4 ending has him facing a Seth on the verge of evaporating into blue
flame. Then behind him, BLECE starts to flare up, and with it Ryu's SnH.
He feels like it'll swallow him, then he turns toward BLECE and fires a
hadouken at it. It seems to have stopped, then Sakura sees and calls to
Ryu from above. He tells her to stay away as the weapon starts to flare
up again, this time drawing SnH out of her as she's growing weak. Ryu
charges at it with a shoryuken and destroys it, then both he and Sakura
slowly get out (Sakura's ending).


Street Fighter 3 Second Impact: Ryu fought in Gill's tournament to once
again continue to test and train himself. He got defeated by Oro [Official].
Afterwards he reluctantly gets Sean dropped onto his lap courtesy of Ken
(specially noted via AAC).


Street Fighter 3 Third Strike: Ryu has been in a countless number of
fights. He has fought some 10,000 opponents. "A true Street Fighter". The
path Ryu follows is still vague and hasn't taken shape, but he doesn't
stray. Nevertheless one thing is clear: As long as he keeps encountering
new/strong opponents, Ryu will continue his course [Official]. After Ryu
lost to Oro in Second Impact, he travels to America. Of course, being Ryu,
he uses his loss to motivate him to become even stronger, after seeing what
Oro is capable of, but for the time being, he had more pressing matters. He
seeks out Ken so that they have another match. He travels across the
country (starting in Oakland) and finally meets Ken in NY. Ken is probably
in NY to enter the Pan-American Championship, which he wins [Ken's SF3TS
ending]. Ryu wins his match with Ken, but also has a fight with Alex while
he was in NY. Ryu also wins this and encourages Alex to keep on fighting.
With the weight of vengeance off of Alex’s back, he is now excited about
fighting and searches the world for Ryu and other challengers [Alex's SF3TS
ending].

[Bruceleehulk]

CJ SF3 Q&A translations by Vasil10


-For Chun Li to not appear, is it because as with her SF2 ending she became an ordinary girl?
A. Even in the place of Chun Li gone back to being an ordinary girl, those thighs won't be hidden. It's believed wherever there's rampaging.


-As for Sakura, aiming for Ryu even now, is she chasing him?
A. For Sakura, it's believed that she's active as a member of society. A headband in suit, with the gloves-on-both-hands appearance if she's a woman running around with a phone in one hand, it's perhaps agreed that she's not a girlfriend.


-Since SF2 is it a world of how many years after?
A. Since SF2's announcement please think of the time as abstaining from real time.


-With SF3 how are Vega and Shadoloo doing?
A. Even Vega also Shadoloo are in good health.


-About Gill's gang and relations to Shadoloo?
A. Gill's organization is such that the world conjectures. Shadoloo's activities also, as long as Vega doesn't realize they've been utilized by means of a large power, are being controlled.



-What kind of person is Gill? What is he plotting?
A. Gill is a human being chosen by the global world. Gill's ambition is by means of his own hands, the matter of establishing the ideal unified world.


-Gouki and Sagat, how are they doing?
A. It's agreed that in time, Gouki will appear before Alex and company. As for Sagat, he's in Thailand.


-With having been active in SF2 Guile and Honda, Balrog and the others at the present, how are they doing?
A. Guile, Honda, Balrog and the others of the world are continuing their struggles.


-Is it agreed that Ryu is no longer going back to a major role?
A. In regards to Ryu, it seems that he has nothing to do with whoever has a major role.


CJ had spoken of Vega's and Shadaloo's "doing fine" states prior to Z3's release which declared Vega utterly obliterated by Gouki's hands. SF4 & SSF4 thus far have attempted to bring things back to what was originally said during this Q&A session, while still keeping elements of CJ's later statements as well.

edit: the Seth that Able fought is the one that Bison / Vega was previously in before his scientists had created a
another body identical to his old ones. Seth refer as number 15 by Bison / Vega, and he kills number 21 in his SF4 ending. also Juri is the one who killed Seth. her ending shows her tauting seth, kicking him ribs, then crushing his taden engine by stomping on it.

[HectorP]

I thought Nakoruru and her sister were the most popular characters in the series.

News to me. Is this why she was always included in the crossover games with Capcom? I never liked playing with her there.

[Kyle_Ion]

well I would have 2 disagree here, though I can only think of 3 women that lead the games as heroes.

1.) Bloodrayne
2.) Lara Croft
3.) Bayonetta

I like mass effect because there is no canon way of playing.

My canon playthru of mass effect is the default image male shepard in 1 and 2

[Bruceleehulk]

Ryu is usually pair up with Ken or Sakura as supporting character , and Chun-li is always pair up with Guile as supporting character.

SFA3 Ryu, Ken, Sakura and Sagat

SFA3 Chun-li, Charlie and Guile

SF4 Ryu, Sakura, Dan, Blanka and Ken

SF4 / SSF4: Chun-li, Guile, Cammy and Able

SF4 OVA: Chun-li, Guile and Cammy

SF4 OVA: Ryu, Ken and Sakura

SSF4 movie: Chun-li, Guile and Cammy

[StoneGold]

Sorry Gilda, quoting that wall of text is a pain.

Anyway, the Iconic face is still made up of stock parts. You can edit them. Male Shep's not made up of parts, he's a facial scan of Dutch model Mark Vanderloo. You can't stretch out his chin or anything - what you see is what you get. If you do try to edit his face, it automatically defaults to something else.

[StoneGold]

I'd say Chun Li's just as important as Ryu is and has been featured in just as many games,marketing and merchandise sure Ryu's usally announced first but she's never far behind Ryu may be the leading man but Chun Li's the leading woman.

And just like a good woman, always a couple steps behind.



But seriously, Ryu is the face of Street Fighter. As far as Chun Li goes, Wonder Woman may be important to DC, but she always takes a back seat to Superman and Batman. Same with Chun Li. She may be amongst the most popular, but she's not the most popular. She's not who Capcom leads with.

[carabas]

According to the report, a 2007 game from Treyarch was tentatively titled Black Lotus. It featured an Asian female assassin lead character based on Lucy Liu, ... One former employee claims Activision "said they don't do female characters because they don't sell." Another, more bluntly, says they were "given specific direction to lose the chick." Black Lotus lives on now as True Crime: Hong Kong, having changed developers and, apparently, lead characters.Well, that's depressing. And also an almost certain must-buy game (for me nayway) replaced by generic dross.

Is it just me or is society going backwards again?

[Dizzy D]

It's also interesting to note how gender is used in the minor supporting characters. Humans are represented by roughly an equal number of males and females, as are Quarians, and Asari are all female, but all other on-screen aliens of any species are male, or at least have human male voices. There are references to female Drell, Krogan, and Turians, but none ever appear onscreen, and all characters not human, Quarian, or Asari are voiced by males. In ME, most of these were voiced by Armin Shimmerman.

That was done to cut costs in ME1 at least (they only designed one model for each species, hence the 1 sex. The male Quarians only appeared in 2 because a mission was set on a Quarian ship.)


Also relevant, given the comment earlier that male gamers don't want to play as a female because that might be seen as "gay", is the apparent lack of human homosexuality. A female Shepard can romance Liara in the first game, but if Shepard romances both Liara and one of the humans, during the "you have to pick one of us" scene, Liara is careful to emphasize that, technically, she's not a woman as her species consists of a single sex. In ME2, it's possible for a female Shepard to romance Kelly and/or Samara, but neither leads to consummation, and a male Shepard has no male romance options in either game, human or otherwise, consummated or not. A male Shepard isn't the least bit gay. This is curious for a Bioware game, given that they have a history of putting in one female and one male character that is a romance prospect for a PC of either sex. When talking about this aspect of ME2, a Bioware spokesperson said they chose not to have any homosexuality in the game because they wanted to preserve a "PG13" feel for the game. This seems strange, given that the sex scenes, at least those I've played, all fade out just before any disrobing occurs. Kelly's dance is more sexually explicit than the "official" romance scenes, again, among those that I've seen, though I've only sexed up the aliens of both sexes. It seems obvious to me that a same-sex romance could have been handled with the same fade-out; I suspect Bioware was fearing the same idiotic fear-mongering that the pretty tame sex scene in ME caused among some (and by some, I mean Fox News).

Also interesting when it comes to gender in ME is that the major theme running through most of the sidequests is the importance and impact of family relationships (also a dominant theme in Dragon Age and Jade Empire), with a particular focus on the father-child relationships. Methinks a good number of ME2's writers have daddy issues, given the number of absent/incompetent fathers and father figures in that game.

I've played a lot of both ME and ME2.

Well, if you hack into the game or save-edit, you can get the homosexual romance that was cut out for ME1. Voices were (mostly) recorded and everything, so odd that they would cut it from the final version. I heard there was something similar for 2, but haven't seen it myself.



As to the general idea of the OP, the obvious solution to me seems to be offering a gender-selectable PC wherever feasible. When a game is tied closely to telling the story of a specific character, this isn't going to be practical most of the time, but with something like an RPG or a platformer, it seems so obvious a solution that I'm surprised it isn't the default way of doing things. It's pretty much irrelevant for a first-person shooter or a RTS or any other game in which you never or very seldom see your character on-screen.

These days, it mostly seems to be:
- 1 selectable character? Then it's a white male with brown hair and five o'clock shadow. (Hello, random space marine #X!)
- 2 selectable characters. Then you usually get 1 male and 1 female character. Usually both white as well.
- 3 or more, then you can get a chance for diversity.

It does depend on genre though.

- Most sport games only have 1 gender and it's usually male.

- 1st person shooters are mostly male (there are a few exceptions like No Ones Lives Forever and Portal (though the last one is more of a puzzle game)). You do wonder why they even bother, because most of the time, you won't even see what you look like and often there is no one to interact with anyway.

- western RPGs, you can usually customize your character. Japanese, it can depend, but it seems to have a pretty even spread.

- Point and Click and Adventure games do seem to get a more even spread between male and female characters.

[Xero Kaiser]

um you DO know that Cammy won the poll of which character fans wanted most in the home version of SFIV right?

Actually, Dudley won. He still didn't make it in vanilla SF4 though.


in SFIII fan demand put Chun Li back in the game

No, Ryu and Ken were the only characters added to SF3 purely from fan demand. Chun Li did make it in (eventually), but not before the Ryu, Ken and Akuma


and in SCII fan demand put Sophtia and Seung Mina in the home version.

Same with Rock and Hwang in SC2 and Li Long in SC3.


And don't even get me started on KOF fans and Mai *and King to a lesser extent*.

Mai...maybe, but King isn't anywhere near being popular.



You give them orders, it's not the same thing.

There's an enormous disconnect between the kind of "control" in an RTS and the kind of control in a fighting game, or a third person shooter, or a platformer. You're issuing commands in an RTS, you're not taking direct control of a character. They're your subordinates, whereas Lara Croft or Marcus Fenix are your surrogate. You ARE that person when you're playing the game, and that's where the major difference, and why StarCraft is a really bad example to the point of it really shouldn't even be in the equation.

That's not the point. I was responding to the "You don't see any of the main characters during SC's gameplay" statement. Which is untrue. In fact, there are several missions where the main character will be the only person you're controlling. The control scheme used is irrelevant.

[Gilda Dent]

Sorry Gilda, quoting that wall of text is a pain.

Anyway, the Iconic face is still made up of stock parts. You can edit them. Male Shep's not made up of parts, he's a facial scan of Dutch model Mark Vanderloo. You can't stretch out his chin or anything - what you see is what you get. If you do try to edit his face, it automatically defaults to something else.

Sure, and the promotional materials featuring Miranda all use concept art while the in-game model is a scan of Yvonne Strahovski's face. Likewise, promotional material for the first game featured concept art for Liara, but the in-game image was a digital scan of Jillian Murray.

I don't dispute that a lot more thought, effort, and expense went into the male Shepard default because that is the "face" of the game that shows up in the promotional materials, both still artwork and videos.

I'm not sure how this is relevant to whether or not there's a default face for a female Shepard, which was the only part I was disputing. It makes sense from a marketing standpoint to use a single image to promote the game so as not to confuse potential buyers. I would add, however, that it makes just as much sense to offer as much in-game customization as reasonable given budget and time constraints, especially when one can see one's character on screen.

[Ray B.]

Actually, Dudley won. He still didn't make it in vanilla SF4 though.



No, Ryu and Ken were the only characters added to SF3 purely from fan demand. Chun Li did make it in (eventually), but not before the Ryu, Ken and Akuma



Same with Rock and Hwang in SC2 and Li Long in SC3.



Mai...maybe, but King isn't anywhere near being popular.
strange Capcom's site said Cammy won.

Way I heard it was Chun Li was added because fans wanted her in and like I said Chun Li's just as important as Ryu is.

Except they weren't added in SCII generic clones where.
True but that doesn't invalidate my point plus he was a semi-generic character in SCIII and not seen in SCIV.

oh Mai's DEFINITELY popular considering the fact that they are actually a good number of fans who won't buy the game if she's not in it and King not popular?Every KOF forum I get on there's a thread wanting her and Mai back and the collective squee from the fandom when she was announced along side Mai&Yuri*

[aut0matic]

Well, that's depressing. And also an almost certain must-buy game (for me nayway) replaced by generic dross.

Is it just me or is society going backwards again?

wait.. knowing only that the game stars a lucy liu knockoff who's an assassin and nothing else about the game is enough to make it a "must buy" for you?

... never mind, i just saw your avatar.

but i would say they're definitely playing it safe here, going with the established "true crime" franchise, rather than take a huge risk on a game that in all honesty probably wouldn't sell very well...

[carabas]

wait.. knowing only that the game stars a lucy liu knockoff who's an assassin and nothing else about the game is enough to make it a "must buy" for you?

... never mind, i just saw your avatar.Yeah, give me cheesy kung fu moves, a B-movie feel, and a female protagonist and I'm there as long as the gameplay is at least somewhat competently done, and I'm there.


but i would say they're definitely playing it safe here, going with the established "true crime" franchise, rather than take a huge risk on a game that in all honesty probably wouldn't sell very well...See, the name of the franchise alone, "True Crime" repulses me. It seems antithetical to what I want out of a good game.

Now, if it were a HBO televison series instead of a video game...

[aut0matic]

See, the name of the franchise alone, "True Crime" repulses me. It seems antithetical to what I want out of a good game.

Now, if it were a HBO televison series instead of a video game...

i don't care for the name of the franchise either, but i played the original true crime when it first came out and i actually enjoyed it. sure, it was a derivative GTA clone, but it had enough new things in it like upgrades (to guns, moves, cars,) a semi-decent combat/take down system, and a branching storyline to set it apart. hell, it even had snoop dogg as a secret playable character.

never played the second one, but re-making that lucy liu game featuring another protagonist actually wouldn't seem all that out of line with the franchise. the original dealt with triads, kung-fu, and chinese mythology (i think there was even a dragon- it's been years since i played it.)

[Bruceleehulk]

Chun-li did most of the work taking down Shadaloo and does most the work with S.I.N because she has the brains and the know how. the only person who had invesgation skills besides Chun-li in Street Fighter was Charlie who is dead.


-Nash and Chun-Li first meet; both rebels in their own way, she's got the
research, he's got the guns, both have the intellect, two peas in a pod. Nash
is impressed with Chun-Li's homework, but he still enjoys surprising her with
the warehouse's dirty little secret.
-Nash is convinced that he won't be coming back after this mission, and he's
not at all regretting that he got replacement tags to make up for the ones he
previously lost (another wink to his Z2 ending). The military wants to screw
with him, he'll go out in a blaze of glory screwing them back, using their own
illegal toys (the English Harriers one of which he personally flies as seen in
multiple Z3 endings plus their entire warehouse arsenal) to go on a mission
concerning a topic (Shadaloo) they specifically ordered him not to butt his
nose into.


Nash found out about Shadaloo and started investigating them. One of
his superiors who was a member of Shadaloo noticed his rash action of going
at it alone, and sent Nash away to a weapons warehouse in the far country side
hoping to discharge Nash since the plot to take him out in front of Vega
failed. But Nash didn't give up and gathered more allies and many more weapons.
Chun-Li found out where Shadaloo was located, and decided to work together with
Nash. And in order to get into his warehouse, she actually pretended to be his
Oriental girlfriend who speaks fluent English Oo ...it's too bad Capcom didn't
show that in the games because that's really interesting, I think.



Street Fighter Zero 2: Chun-Li's father has gone missing on assignment.
Following a lead from a friend of her father's, Gen, Chun-Li sets out to
investigate the evil organization known as Shadaloo and find out who's
responsible. She finally came face to face with the leader of Shadaloo, Vega.
Demanding to know what happened to her father, Vega and she
fought, and Vega proceeded to kick the crap out of her then flew off, leaving
behind a clue about her father having amused him.[Official].




Street Fighter Zero 3: Chun-Li is the I.C.P.O.'s special detective
assigned to Shadaloo. With management corruption, she was powerless as an
official. So, she works in cooperation with Nash to defeat Shadaloo.
Unfortunately, Guile came to intervene. Chun-Li tried to stop him, telling
him that the army was corrupt and that Nash had to be left alone so
Nash could take care of Vega, but Guile would have none of it.
However, after Guile himself met Nash, he himself had realized what was
going on, and he joined them too. The bombardment of Shadaloo, however,
was called off due to corruption in Interpol and Vega's manipulation, so
Chun-Li realized that they had to destroy the base themselves. As Guile and
Nash go to destroy the psycho drive, Chun-Li proceeds to set explosives
around the base. While doing this, she captured a brief glimpse of a
mysterious young girl, but wasn't able to see much more before that girl
(Cammy, and maybe some of the other girls) ran off [Conjecture based off
in-game storyline and official statements]. Unfortunately, Nash doesn't
make it out of the explosion thanks to Vega. However, many of Shadaloo's
facilities have been shut down via Interpol, finally... [Official]

Street Fighter 2: While reeling, Shadaloo isn't dead, yet. Worse off,
apparently Vega is somehow still alive. Chun-Li enters the tournament,
suspecting more than ever that Vega's behind her father's disappearance
years ago [Official]. After the tournament, Chun-Li systematically took
Shadaloo down for good. After Shadaloo was destroyed, Chun-Li visited
her father's grave, telling him that he can finally rest in peace. She
tries the lifestyle of an ordinary girl (which Ken knows by the end of SF2)
but soon goes back to being a detective [Chun-Li's SF2 Revival ending and
specially noted in AAC].



-Chun-Li joined ICPO at age 18, 1 year before SF1.
-For SF4, she teams up with Guile to investigate Shadaloo's "destroyed" status.

Along with Guile, Chun-Li also allies with Cammy and newcomer Abel during her
infiltration of Seth's tournament. She also runs into C. Viper and later warns
Cammy about her (Cammy's rival battle intro). Once she makes it into the lab,
she hacks into S.I.N.-sha's database to find info on this new enterprise and
its possible relation to Shadaloo. Balrog however, doing some hacking on his
own, tries to trap Chun-Li in that room with fatal gas seeping through the
vents. Chun-Li tries to escape but it's no use as the gas proceeds to fill
room. She weakly begs Guile to escape with the new data and then blacks out.
Next thing she realizes she's in Guile's arms, Abel at his side, and they're
watching the burning lab as Abel hands her the data they acquired (Balrog's
and Chun-Li's SF4 endings).

[Young Avenger]

Mai...maybe, but King isn't anywhere near being popular.

KoF fans did throw a bitch fit when King was excluded from the original version of 2002.

[FalconX2000]

King was actually very popular in the 90s from my understanding. She's used rather less often nowadays. At least that's my impression when I go to the arcades. Shermie, however, is very popular among regular players.

[Xero Kaiser]

See, the name of the franchise alone, "True Crime" repulses me. It seems antithetical to what I want out of a good game.

You do know that you play a cop in that series, right?

[Black Atom]

Weird, I remember hearing that female leads relatively decently (at least compared to films and comics). They certainly make enough. Didn't Heavenly Sword and Mirror's Edge do pretty well? And RE3? Can anyone even name the guys in DOA? (though that one may be for the wrong reasons).

I do know that it doesn't matter at high levels of competitive play. In fighters, players use the best character male or female. I also remember in Quake 2, many players used the female model because it was harder to hit.

[Ray B.]

This kinda reminds me of that guy that ran Sega's US branch during the Genesis-Dreamcast era not localizing JRPGs because he said US gamers wouldn't buy them only to have Final Fantasy VII shoot that assumption in the ass and leave it for dead.

[aut0matic]

And RE3? Can anyone even name the guys in DOA? (though that one may be for the wrong reasons).



in RE3, i'd say sheva was more chris redfield's sidekick, definitely not THE main character.

you're right that in DOA, the focus is definitely on the females. for the record, i can name off Ryu Hayabusa, Zack, and Bayman :tongue:

[Jeremi]

Mai...maybe, but King isn't anywhere near being popular.

Then you weren't around when May Lee took Kings spot in KoF2002.

The outcry was mind blowing.

EDIT: Young Avenger beat me to it.

[Dizzy D]

in RE3, i'd say sheva was more chris redfield's sidekick, definitely not THE main character.

you're right that in DOA, the focus is definitely on the females. for the record, i can name off Ryu Hayabusa, Zack, and Bayman :tongue:

That's 5, 3 is where you're Jill and fight Nemesis.

[carabas]

You do know that you play a cop in that series, right?That is hardly the point. I love playing villains.

But I did not know this, and this new information just makes me less interested.

[Xero Kaiser]

Then you weren't around when May Lee took Kings spot in KoF2002.

The outcry was mind blowing.

EDIT: Young Avenger beat me to it.

I was there. Nobody cared. Just like I was there when a handful of people cried about May Lee replacing Jhun Hoon in the KOF before that. In the end, a few 3rd-string characters being shifted around didn't bother most people.


[QUOTE=The Phantasm;11722783]strange Capcom's site said Cammy won.

Dudley won the original poll.

[Ray B.]

I was there. Nobody cared. Just like I was there when a handful of people cried about May Lee replacing Jhun Hoon in the KOF before that. In the end, a few 3rd-string characters being shifted around didn't bother most people.

[quote]

Dudley won the original poll.

Strange all the forums I get on love King.Maybe it's console players.

I think it was the US poll Cammy won.

[kane]

This version of Chun Li is cute: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I5fqhEkaAc
:biggrin:

[StoneGold]

Yeah, give me cheesy kung fu moves, a B-movie feel, and a female protagonist and I'm there as long as the gameplay is at least somewhat competently done, and I'm there.

See, the name of the franchise alone, "True Crime" repulses me. It seems antithetical to what I want out of a good game.

Now, if it were a HBO televison series instead of a video game...

Honestly, from all that, you're pretty shallow in your likes. Nor are you very representative of the general public.

[aut0matic]

That's 5, 3 is where you're Jill and fight Nemesis.

wow, thanks for catching that. i'm a huge RE fan, too... idk where my mind was.


This version of Chun Li is cute: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I5fqhEkaAc
:biggrin:

what version of chun li isn't cute? (rhetorical question, no pictures to answer that, please.)

call me old-fashioned, but i prefer chun li to be chinese...

[StoneGold]

Sure, and the promotional materials featuring Miranda all use concept art while the in-game model is a scan of Yvonne Strahovski's face. Likewise, promotional material for the first game featured concept art for Liara, but the in-game image was a digital scan of Jillian Murray.

I don't dispute that a lot more thought, effort, and expense went into the male Shepard default because that is the "face" of the game that shows up in the promotional materials, both still artwork and videos.

I'm not sure how this is relevant to whether or not there's a default face for a female Shepard, which was the only part I was disputing. It makes sense from a marketing standpoint to use a single image to promote the game so as not to confuse potential buyers. I would add, however, that it makes just as much sense to offer as much in-game customization as reasonable given budget and time constraints, especially when one can see one's character on screen.

I am of firm belief that there is no canon, which is part of why I dread a movie coming out. Because movie Shepard will look and sound like none of the Shepards I played with. Take away the interactivity, it's a Babylon 5 knockoff. A good one, perhaps, but one nonetheless.


But you know if they make a movie, Shep's gonna be a dude.

[Dizzy D]

I am of firm belief that there is no canon, which is part of why I dread a movie coming out. Because movie Shepard will look and sound like none of the Shepards I played with. Take away the interactivity, it's a Babylon 5 knockoff. A good one, perhaps, but one nonetheless.


But you know if they make a movie, Shep's gonna be a dude.

Yeah, I hate it when they try to force a canon on RPG. The fun in RPGs is that you make your own character and your own decisions. And then you have somebody in the sequel going "Yeah, great that you did all that. Here is what really happened."

And so you get that according to canon, the Exile in KotOR2 is female, even though the Handmaiden has a far better story than the Disciple. But I guess it can't be helped, having both Revan and the Exile male would also be no solution and having Revan female, means a chance of Carth/Revan romance being canon and that way madness lies.

[Ray B.]

wow, thanks for catching that. i'm a huge RE fan, too... idk where my mind was.



what version of chun li isn't cute? (rhetorical question, no pictures to answer that, please.)

call me old-fashioned, but i prefer chun li to be chinese...

Chun Li has allways been Chinese though?

[StoneGold]

Yeah, I hate it when they try to force a canon on RPG. The fun in RPGs is that you make your own character and your own decisions. And then you have somebody in the sequel going "Yeah, great that you did all that. Here is what really happened."

And so you get that according to canon, the Exile in KotOR2 is female, even though the Handmaiden has a far better story than the Disciple. But I guess it can't be helped, having both Revan and the Exile male would also be no solution and having Revan female, means a chance of Carth/Revan romance being canon and that way madness lies.

Well, JRPGs tend to be more linear anyway. And notice I said tend to. It's usually more the American ones that go all wonky with the multiple paths.

And even then, Mass Effect is the only one I can think of with enough character changes and differences that any of it really matters. KOTOR being basically a different cast and all.

Basically, ME2 was the first time a dev had the balls to try and have what is essentially an open game with multiple choice branches actually matter in the sequel.

[Young Avenger]

delete this message

[aut0matic]

Chun Li has allways been Chinese though?

yeah, the real chun li. not the cosplay one in the video kane posted.

[Dizzy D]

Well, JRPGs tend to be more linear anyway. And notice I said tend to. It's usually more the American ones that go all wonky with the multiple paths.

And even then, Mass Effect is the only one I can think of with enough character changes and differences that any of it really matters. KOTOR being basically a different cast and all.

Basically, ME2 was the first time a dev had the balls to try and have what is essentially an open game with multiple choice branches actually matter in the sequel.

True, when it comes to JPRGs, I think only the Shin Megami Tensei games really apply (Law, Neutral and Chaos endings and in every sequel you get to hear "the neutral ending was the real one").

I don't Mass Effect's choices matterred that much in ME2 though (ME3 should be interesting to see though). In KotOR you had a mostly different cast, but the same goes for ME2. Baldur's Gate had some choices carrying over from 1 to 2. Wizardry was interesting, because your starting position and alliances in one part were determined by your choices in the previous one.

[shades of eternity]

Personally it's like the media hasn't caught up in north america.

This is a symptom, rather then the cause.

Hollywood made a similar comment a couple of years back and I guess this is the echo chamber talking.

this is a pity, cause I think having female characters helps marketing to 1/2 the population, the female side :p.

additionally, a female cannot be marketed simply as the female. It's insulting, and females are just as interesting and varied as their male counter part.

and yes activision.

http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/female-expendables-570.jpg

females don't sell :p

[Xero Kaiser]

this is a pity, cause I think having female characters helps marketing to 1/2 the population, the female side :p.


That's the half that generally isn't lining up at midnight and making games an overnight success. And with the mindset that Activision has, that's the half they're not going to chase after.

And as much as I dislike Activision, I can't fault them for that, 'cuz I wouldn't do it either.

[JCAll]

Can anyone even name the guys in DOA?

No, but most people can't name the women either. People can't be expected to read a name tag and watch jiggle physics at the same time.

[StoneGold]

True, when it comes to JPRGs, I think only the Shin Megami Tensei games really apply (Law, Neutral and Chaos endings and in every sequel you get to hear "the neutral ending was the real one").

I don't Mass Effect's choices matterred that much in ME2 though (ME3 should be interesting to see though). In KotOR you had a mostly different cast, but the same goes for ME2. Baldur's Gate had some choices carrying over from 1 to 2. Wizardry was interesting, because your starting position and alliances in one part were determined by your choices in the previous one.

Not to the ending of ME2, but there were enough differences, if only in the way certain characters treated you based on how you treated them in the last game. It mattered more from a character progression standpoint than a plot progression standpoint. The game is basically the same whether or not you're working for the Council still, but the fact that they show up, as opposed to being dead, is a pretty big difference.

[StoneGold]

and yes activision.

http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/female-expendables-570.jpg

females don't sell :p

From left to right...

Last movie bombed, never headlined a movie, cult actress with little following in America who never headlined a major motion picture, last two American movies were a Mummy sequel and Babylon AD, hasn't headlined a successful action film since Alien 3, last Resident Evil movie tanked, never headlined an action movie (and hasn't headlined a movie in forever), never headlined an action movie... and I don't think she's even been in an action movie, even in a non-headline role, since 1997.


Now granted, you can say the same thing about Dolph Lundgren, but what does putting together a picture of a movie that doesn't exist starring women who combined haven't headlined a successful action movie in the US since 2004 have to do with video games where you play as women not selling?


Although I do find it cute you say it's insulting to market them just as women, but then do just that.

[Sano]

last Resident Evil movie tanked...

Wrong. It made $50,648,679 domestically and $97 million overseas.

Sony has even gone on record to say that the Resident Evil movie franchise is their biggest franchise after Spider-Man. This is before the Twilight craze so I'm not entirely sure how that series stands up against Spidey and RE.

Now if you mean the third Resident Evil movie just plain old sucked sure I agree but all of the Resident Evil movies have sucked. But hey they sure are making money.

[Sano]

Accidental double post...

[Ray B.]

Wrong. It made $50,648,679 domestically and $97 million overseas.

Sony has even gone on record to say that the Resident Evil movie franchise is their biggest franchise after Spider-Man. This is before the Twilight craze so I'm not entirely sure how that series stands up against Spidey and RE.

Now if you mean the third Resident Evil movie just plain old sucked sure I agree but all of the Resident Evil movies have sucked. But hey they sure are making money.

I liked RE apocalypse*granted it was Jill that drew me in* infact it's what got me into RE.

[Sano]

I didn't like any of the movies really but I liked aspects of them. I liked how the first movie could work in the background of the first game. I liked how they REALLY nailed Jill Valentine in the second.

I hate the third one with a passion though. Joint is more like Mad Max meets X-Men than it is like Resident Evil. And Wesker, one of the greatest video game villains of ALL TIME spends the entire movie in a chair! UNFORGIVABLE! :mad:

Still I will go see part 4 because Wesker stands up! :cool: If they mess it up again I will be a sad panda but eh... I think the special effects with Wesker busting out some of his Matrix-y RE5 moves in 3D will be worth a ticket at the very least.

[StoneGold]

Wrong. It made $50,648,679 domestically and $97 million overseas.

Sony has even gone on record to say that the Resident Evil movie franchise is their biggest franchise after Spider-Man. This is before the Twilight craze so I'm not entirely sure how that series stands up against Spidey and RE.

Now if you mean the third Resident Evil movie just plain old sucked sure I agree but all of the Resident Evil movies have sucked. But hey they sure are making money.

Not according to IMDB.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0432021/business

Either way, at best that's one out of nine having a successful action movie in the last nine years or so.

[Sano]

Huh. Wiki has different figures. Go fig lol! Still far from a box office flop really and has made millions no matter how you slice it. And still a terrible movie IMHO but hey someone must like it...

[Wild Card]

what version of chun li isn't cute? (rhetorical question, no pictures to answer that, please.)
How about the Jackie Chan version?

[Ray B.]

Not according to IMDB.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0432021/business

Either way, at best that's one out of nine having a successful action movie in the last nine years or so.

That's still successful though.

[StoneGold]

That's still successful though.

To paraphrase Spaceballs, "Pretty successful... for a girl..."


Really, one out of nine, not much of an argument.